WEBVTT - The Little-Known Office With $400 Billion to Fight Climate Change 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.596 Pushkin. So Congress has given you up to four hundred 0:00:21.636 --> 0:00:25.356 and twelve billion dollars to lend. Yeah, you have like 0:00:25.396 --> 0:00:27.756 a bank account you can log into to see what 0:00:27.836 --> 0:00:30.316 you got left? Do you log in? Like I log 0:00:30.396 --> 0:00:32.716 into my Chase account to see if I can whatever 0:00:32.836 --> 0:00:33.476 pay my credit? 0:00:33.436 --> 0:00:36.876 There is there is a log in. It's very complicated 0:00:37.036 --> 0:00:40.796 and it requires multiple like you know those keys that 0:00:40.876 --> 0:00:42.876 two people have to turn at the same time. 0:00:42.756 --> 0:00:52.276 Well, like the nuclear codes or something. I'm Jacob Goldstein 0:00:52.356 --> 0:00:54.716 and this is What's Your Problem? The show where I 0:00:54.796 --> 0:00:58.316 talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. 0:00:58.836 --> 0:01:02.636 My guest today is Jiggershaw. Jigger founded the solar power 0:01:02.716 --> 0:01:06.276 company son Edison and spent decades working in green energy, 0:01:06.836 --> 0:01:10.516 and then in twenty twenty one took a turn. It 0:01:10.596 --> 0:01:15.556 became a government bureaucrat. Specifically, he took a job running 0:01:15.676 --> 0:01:19.076 the loan Program's office at the US Department of Energy, 0:01:19.756 --> 0:01:23.436 and then last year, as part of the Inflation Reduction Act, 0:01:23.756 --> 0:01:28.316 Congress allocated hundreds of billions of dollars for Jigger's office 0:01:28.356 --> 0:01:31.036 to lend out. The loans are supposed to go to 0:01:31.076 --> 0:01:34.516 companies that are helping the US economy move away from 0:01:34.596 --> 0:01:38.436 fossil fuels. That can mean everything from building new nuclear 0:01:38.476 --> 0:01:42.756 plants to creating a giant hydrogen battery in an underground 0:01:42.796 --> 0:01:46.956 salt cap. Ultimately, jiggers problem is this, what's the best 0:01:46.956 --> 0:01:49.876 way to lend out all that money and do it 0:01:49.956 --> 0:01:52.796 fast enough for the US to meet its climate goals? 0:01:56.716 --> 0:01:59.636 And you know, my feeling is is that for many 0:01:59.716 --> 0:02:05.916 years entrepreneurs have felt a lack of support from the 0:02:05.996 --> 0:02:09.756 US government. Right, there's tax credits which they've they've had 0:02:09.836 --> 0:02:14.436 access to, for sure, but when it comes to commercializing technology, 0:02:14.636 --> 0:02:18.396 that step is always risky, right, Like you've demonstrated the lab, 0:02:18.636 --> 0:02:21.436 you've done a full scale demonstration. Now you need a 0:02:21.556 --> 0:02:25.556 first of a kind facility, manufacturing facility. And many of 0:02:25.596 --> 0:02:28.876 those companies have gone to Europe or Asia to commercialize 0:02:28.916 --> 0:02:32.756 those technologies and not stayed here. So what I think 0:02:32.836 --> 0:02:35.356 our job is is to make sure they all choose 0:02:35.396 --> 0:02:39.476 America for their commercialization and they tie that to the 0:02:39.516 --> 0:02:43.116 American worker and to American communities. We have for many 0:02:43.196 --> 0:02:47.876 years been the leaders in innovation, but not the leaders 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:51.316 in commercialization. Like all the solar panel technology that China 0:02:51.836 --> 0:02:55.116 uses to manufacture solar panels were invented here in the 0:02:55.196 --> 0:02:57.516 United States, or by Martin Green at the University of 0:02:57.596 --> 0:03:01.836 New South Wales in Australia. None of it was invented there. 0:03:02.076 --> 0:03:05.236 The same thing's true with lithium phosphate batteries, and so 0:03:05.436 --> 0:03:08.196 they are all these technologies where we're saying China's beating us, 0:03:08.196 --> 0:03:11.036 We're like, well, it's our technology. We decided not to 0:03:11.036 --> 0:03:13.796 commercialize it here. Now we're going to commercialize it here. 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:20.236 So in terms of how you decide what loans to make, 0:03:21.076 --> 0:03:23.436 is there some amount of money that you want to 0:03:23.516 --> 0:03:25.116 lend by some time? 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:31.036 Yeah, So to me, the goal is not the amount 0:03:31.076 --> 0:03:32.916 of money. Right. As a country, we want to hit 0:03:32.956 --> 0:03:36.756 certain targets, right the President has laid down decarbonization targets 0:03:36.756 --> 0:03:38.996 by twenty thirty five and twenty fifty. But we also 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:41.516 have national security concerns, like we want to make sure 0:03:41.516 --> 0:03:45.156 that if people are building new nuclear plants, they're building 0:03:45.196 --> 0:03:50.076 American nuclear plants, not Chinese, Russian, French, or Korean nuclear plants, right, 0:03:50.356 --> 0:03:53.036 And so we want to make sure that we're proving 0:03:53.076 --> 0:03:56.116 that technology here in this country so that folks in 0:03:56.156 --> 0:03:59.916 other countries feel comfortable choosing our technology. And they have 0:03:59.996 --> 0:04:03.356 been choosing our technology, and so we want to win 0:04:03.396 --> 0:04:06.476 that national security battle too, and that's on hydrogen, that's 0:04:06.516 --> 0:04:09.636 on transmission, and so we want to make sure that 0:04:09.676 --> 0:04:12.716 we're winning. We want to meet the moment so that 0:04:12.876 --> 0:04:18.076 these sectors actually get fully commercialized and become low cost 0:04:18.236 --> 0:04:20.956 enough that countries around the world think that they can 0:04:21.036 --> 0:04:21.476 use them. 0:04:21.916 --> 0:04:25.836 So one of the reasons I'm very happy to be 0:04:25.876 --> 0:04:29.276 talking to you is that your job gives you this 0:04:29.596 --> 0:04:36.156 really interesting big picture of what's happening right now in 0:04:36.196 --> 0:04:40.476 the sort of business of energy transition in America. Right 0:04:41.516 --> 0:04:43.316 where we are we need to get where we need 0:04:43.356 --> 0:04:46.276 to get, and maybe in particular, like what do you 0:04:46.276 --> 0:04:49.556 see as the key bottlenecks there where you're really eager 0:04:49.636 --> 0:04:53.596 to fund projects that will you know, kind of remove 0:04:53.996 --> 0:04:56.596 or or help expand what is now whatever is the 0:04:56.676 --> 0:04:57.716 rate limiting step. 0:04:58.316 --> 0:05:02.996 What we've learned is Americans want more electricity, right. They 0:05:02.996 --> 0:05:06.596 want electric vehicles, they want new manufacturing plants, they want 0:05:06.636 --> 0:05:10.156 ai chat GBT alone is going to use ten thousand 0:05:10.236 --> 0:05:14.996 megawatts of new power, and so we need more bulk generation. 0:05:15.356 --> 0:05:18.516 We need nuclear power, right. I love solar and wind power, 0:05:18.796 --> 0:05:20.276 but we're not going to put all of our eggs 0:05:20.316 --> 0:05:22.876 only in that basket. We need enhanced geothermal, we need 0:05:22.876 --> 0:05:26.076 a low IMPAC hydro and each one of those sectors 0:05:26.316 --> 0:05:31.156 has their own problems, Like geothermal basically is leveraging the 0:05:31.196 --> 0:05:34.316 fracking industry. It's all the innovations in the fracking industry, 0:05:34.356 --> 0:05:36.956 So the oil and gas sector actually has to lead 0:05:36.996 --> 0:05:41.516 that sector. The hydro sector, we have thirty seven gigawatts 0:05:41.836 --> 0:05:45.276 of old hydro dams We're built in the nineteen twenties, thirties, forties, 0:05:45.316 --> 0:05:48.916 fifties that need to be relicnsed and extended and a 0:05:48.916 --> 0:05:52.036 lot of those owners are very conservative. How do you 0:05:52.076 --> 0:05:56.036 figure out a way to help them make that decision 0:05:56.076 --> 0:05:59.596 with next generation fish friendly technologies, right, So that's on 0:05:59.636 --> 0:06:02.076 that front. Then you've got the grid. We have a 0:06:02.116 --> 0:06:05.076 bunch of technologies that we invented twenty years ago that 0:06:05.116 --> 0:06:07.596 have been fully deployed in the UK and Belgium and 0:06:07.716 --> 0:06:11.516 Brazil and India, but haven't been deployed here. And so 0:06:11.556 --> 0:06:14.516 how do you align incentives to get the electric utilities 0:06:14.996 --> 0:06:18.916 to use really cheap technologies. For three billion dollars, we 0:06:18.956 --> 0:06:23.156 could actually upgrade the existing grid by thirty percent just 0:06:23.236 --> 0:06:26.676 by basically changing the capacity of our line based on 0:06:26.756 --> 0:06:30.236 temperature outside. Right now, we rate all of our transmission 0:06:30.276 --> 0:06:32.556 lines to the worst possible day. 0:06:33.876 --> 0:06:37.116 Uh huh, so you're saying so you're saying transmission lines 0:06:37.556 --> 0:06:41.636 on almost every day could carry way more power than 0:06:41.676 --> 0:06:43.956 they do. That's right, but we don't allow them to 0:06:43.956 --> 0:06:44.396 do that. 0:06:44.396 --> 0:06:45.316 That's exactly right. 0:06:45.596 --> 0:06:47.956 What do we need to do differently in order to 0:06:47.996 --> 0:06:48.916 do that? What's the problem? 0:06:49.076 --> 0:06:52.836 You just clip a sensor onto the line. It's super cheap. 0:06:53.316 --> 0:06:55.596 Is it really as dumb as that? And if so, 0:06:55.676 --> 0:06:56.836 why hasn't it already happened? 0:06:56.876 --> 0:07:00.636 Because the utility companies in the past made money from 0:07:00.756 --> 0:07:04.676 deploying money, right, So that's how they like if they so, 0:07:04.796 --> 0:07:06.716 they're like, why do I want to solve that problem 0:07:06.796 --> 0:07:08.676 for one hundred thousand dollars when I can solve it 0:07:08.716 --> 0:07:09.956 for a fifty million. 0:07:09.676 --> 0:07:12.956 Dollars by what building a new power plant instead of 0:07:12.996 --> 0:07:15.076 making the lines more efficient. 0:07:14.796 --> 0:07:16.956 Or upgrading the entire distribution system? 0:07:17.716 --> 0:07:20.956 Uh huh. So it's basically bad incentives in the in 0:07:20.996 --> 0:07:21.796 the utility. 0:07:21.876 --> 0:07:24.756 Right, But today they feel like their back is up 0:07:24.756 --> 0:07:27.636 against a wall because so many new plants are coming 0:07:27.676 --> 0:07:29.916 online they can't keep up, and so they're like well, 0:07:30.076 --> 0:07:31.676 we may be forced to do this one hundred thousand 0:07:31.676 --> 0:07:34.156 dollars solution because it's the only one fast enough to 0:07:34.156 --> 0:07:34.836 meet our needs. 0:07:36.236 --> 0:07:38.476 Okay, so that's a good one. You are in the 0:07:38.476 --> 0:07:39.916 middle of a list. I love a list. 0:07:41.076 --> 0:07:43.196 Well, there's only three parts that we list. 0:07:43.196 --> 0:07:45.276 So we were at part number two. What's part number three? 0:07:45.396 --> 0:07:48.716 Part number three is demand flexibility, virtual power plants. Okay, 0:07:48.836 --> 0:07:51.156 So what you're finding is is that there's a lot 0:07:51.156 --> 0:07:53.516 of people buying electric vehicles, and it really is neighborhood 0:07:53.516 --> 0:07:55.636 by neighborhood. When one person gets when of a neighborhood, 0:07:55.756 --> 0:07:58.316 ten more people get it. And if everyone plugs in 0:07:58.316 --> 0:08:02.236 their EV at the exact same time, then you're basically 0:08:02.276 --> 0:08:05.836 inefficiently using the grid. Today, our grid, which is one 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:08.716 of the most expensive machines in the world, is used 0:08:08.716 --> 0:08:11.236 about fourty percent of the time, right, so sixty percent 0:08:11.236 --> 0:08:15.036 of the time it's actually underutilized, not used. And so 0:08:15.036 --> 0:08:17.436 so if everyone plugs in at the same time, then 0:08:17.476 --> 0:08:20.316 that peak becomes higher. So what you want to. 0:08:20.276 --> 0:08:23.356 There is an incredible surge of demand for power, that's right. 0:08:23.356 --> 0:08:25.636 And the thing about power is you have to give 0:08:25.676 --> 0:08:28.596 everybody power at the exact second they want it, and 0:08:28.676 --> 0:08:32.836 that's the store. The supply demand balance with power is notoriously. 0:08:32.356 --> 0:08:34.956 Difficult, but it turns out the vast majority of electric 0:08:35.036 --> 0:08:38.876 vehicle owners plug in their car and leave it plugged 0:08:38.916 --> 0:08:40.996 in for thirteen hours. 0:08:41.196 --> 0:08:42.676 From when they get home from work in the evening 0:08:42.716 --> 0:08:43.716 till they leave the next day. 0:08:43.796 --> 0:08:46.516 That's right. So then, and they only charge for about 0:08:46.556 --> 0:08:50.276 three hours of that thirteen so it doesn't matter which 0:08:50.316 --> 0:08:51.876 three hours they're charging. 0:08:52.756 --> 0:08:55.596 Right, right, right, So you don't have to charge everybody's 0:08:55.636 --> 0:08:58.556 car at six point thirty when everybody gets home and 0:08:58.596 --> 0:08:58.996 plugs it. 0:08:59.036 --> 0:09:01.036 You can plug in everybody's car at six thirty, but 0:09:01.196 --> 0:09:04.396 the power isn't to flow. So Duke Energy, for instance, 0:09:04.556 --> 0:09:07.596 just launched a plan. They give you a fifty percent 0:09:07.676 --> 0:09:10.916 discount on the electricity for you to be more flexible 0:09:10.916 --> 0:09:12.356 as to when you charge. 0:09:12.796 --> 0:09:17.796 Huh, that's if you say, sure, as long as you 0:09:17.876 --> 0:09:21.076 charge my car between six at night and six in 0:09:21.116 --> 0:09:22.996 the morning, I don't care when you do it. If 0:09:23.036 --> 0:09:25.436 you give me a big discount, I'll charge it whenever 0:09:25.436 --> 0:09:25.996 you want in that. 0:09:25.956 --> 0:09:27.876 Way, that's right. So, and then there's a lot of 0:09:27.876 --> 0:09:30.156 folks who have backup batteries because they chose to do 0:09:30.156 --> 0:09:33.316 a backup battery instead of diesel generator or a gas 0:09:33.356 --> 0:09:36.516 generator for their home, right, so that battery now can 0:09:36.516 --> 0:09:39.596 be used to help manage the grid. Some folks want 0:09:39.636 --> 0:09:42.916 to opt in their thermostat and they don't really care 0:09:43.436 --> 0:09:46.036 when their house gets cool, as long as it's cool 0:09:46.116 --> 0:09:48.396 for when they get home, right, so that we can 0:09:48.956 --> 0:09:51.316 make it cool at two in the afternoon, where electricity 0:09:51.356 --> 0:09:53.676 is cheaper because there's so much solar power than at 0:09:53.676 --> 0:09:54.316 five o'clock. 0:09:54.996 --> 0:09:58.116 So I like that you're sort of enumerating some of 0:09:58.156 --> 0:10:01.756 the easy ones, right, some of the relatively cheap, huge return, 0:10:01.836 --> 0:10:04.676 low hanging fruit, and I hope that we get all 0:10:04.676 --> 0:10:05.956 of those, and that we get them soon. 0:10:05.996 --> 0:10:07.796 I wouldn't call nuclear easy. 0:10:07.756 --> 0:10:10.396 No, okay, never mind nuclear. I like that those last 0:10:10.396 --> 0:10:14.316 couple ones you are enumerting, you know, demand flexibility and 0:10:14.876 --> 0:10:18.796 transmission flexibility at some level. Like those ones as you 0:10:18.836 --> 0:10:20.756 describe them, they're like, oh my god, it's so dumb 0:10:20.756 --> 0:10:22.716 that we're not doing that already. And that's great that 0:10:22.756 --> 0:10:26.796 those exist you mentioned nuclear. Obviously, nuclear is very hard 0:10:26.916 --> 0:10:30.716 along many dimensions, not least of which is the political dimension. 0:10:31.636 --> 0:10:33.836 There are other things that have to happen that are 0:10:33.836 --> 0:10:36.236 hard as well, right, Like, what are some of the 0:10:36.276 --> 0:10:36.956 other hard ones? 0:10:38.316 --> 0:10:41.036 Well, hydrogen is hard, right, figuring out whether you know 0:10:41.076 --> 0:10:43.516 there's all these colors of the rainbow. Right, So, green 0:10:43.596 --> 0:10:46.516 hydrogen comes from renewal energy. Blue hydrogen comes from natural 0:10:46.516 --> 0:10:51.436 gas with carbon sigustration storage paink hydrogen comes from nuclear power. 0:10:51.476 --> 0:10:55.236 But ultimately to me, it's just low carbon hydrogen. And 0:10:55.316 --> 0:10:58.396 each one of them has their own technology cost curve, 0:10:58.956 --> 0:11:01.436 and we're just at the beginning of that cost curve. 0:11:05.756 --> 0:11:08.996 After the break the salt cavern in Utah that may 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:21.036 soon become a gigantic hydrogen filled battery. That's the end 0:11:21.036 --> 0:11:23.076 of the ads. Now we're going back to the show. 0:11:23.556 --> 0:11:26.316 Let's talk about a few of the specific projects that 0:11:26.716 --> 0:11:30.156 a few of the specific loans you've made are about 0:11:30.156 --> 0:11:32.996 to make. I mean, are there some that are just 0:11:33.316 --> 0:11:36.716 fun or weird or cool or interesting for whatever reason. 0:11:37.276 --> 0:11:39.996 Well, I'm a nerd, so they're all fun and interesting 0:11:40.076 --> 0:11:44.236 and cool. But I'll name a couple for you. So, Delta, 0:11:44.356 --> 0:11:46.116 Utah has one of the largest coal plants in the 0:11:46.156 --> 0:11:50.556 country and a straight transmission line from there to Los Angeles. 0:11:52.076 --> 0:11:54.476 And they also are on top of a bunch of 0:11:54.516 --> 0:11:57.436 salt caverns. It happens to me that these salt caverns 0:11:57.476 --> 0:11:59.476 are some of the best salt caverns in the world 0:11:59.556 --> 0:12:02.636 at storing hydrogen. So one of the projects we just funded, 0:12:02.796 --> 0:12:06.076 called Delta Aces, had a big electrolyizer, one of the 0:12:06.116 --> 0:12:08.956 largest electrolyizers in the world when we announced it, and 0:12:09.756 --> 0:12:13.036 it's under construction and it will it will store one 0:12:13.156 --> 0:12:18.996 hundred and fifty gigawo hours of hydrogen in each salt cavern. 0:12:19.316 --> 0:12:22.276 To put that in perspective for you, the entirety of 0:12:22.316 --> 0:12:25.796 the United States doesn't have one hundred and fifty gigawe 0:12:25.796 --> 0:12:30.436 hours of battery lithium ion batteries in this country. Huh. 0:12:30.436 --> 0:12:32.316 And one salt cavern is going to have it, and 0:12:32.356 --> 0:12:35.116 they've like seven salt caverns they could tap into if 0:12:35.116 --> 0:12:35.676 they wanted to. 0:12:36.876 --> 0:12:40.516 Let's do a little more contextualizing, Like gigowot hours is 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:45.156 one of those classics hard and that you're contextualizing is 0:12:45.196 --> 0:12:49.196 like lithium ion battery, Like that's like nerd on nerd action. 0:12:49.476 --> 0:12:52.156 So like, what's another way to think of you said 0:12:52.156 --> 0:12:54.196 one hundred and fifty gigawat hours, Like, how I don't 0:12:54.236 --> 0:12:56.876 know what's another way to think of how much that is. 0:12:57.236 --> 0:13:01.396 So that could power the entire state of California for 0:13:01.476 --> 0:13:02.396 an entire day. 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:05.436 Okay, that sounds like a lot. 0:13:05.596 --> 0:13:08.436 It's a lot, right, It's a lot. And so this 0:13:08.516 --> 0:13:11.196 is this is what I'm saying, is that, like, and 0:13:11.236 --> 0:13:13.956 we're going to need that much storage, right, and not 0:13:14.076 --> 0:13:16.076 just for solar and wind. Everybody wants to say, well, 0:13:16.236 --> 0:13:19.596 these intermittent technologies need a lot of storage, but also 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:22.636 for nuclear, Like nuclear really wants to run twenty four 0:13:22.716 --> 0:13:25.076 x seven, even though you can turn it down, it 0:13:25.156 --> 0:13:28.756 wants to run all the time. And so when there's 0:13:28.796 --> 0:13:31.036 access nuclear power, you need to do something with it. 0:13:31.116 --> 0:13:34.196 You can turn it into hydrogen, right, and so so 0:13:34.556 --> 0:13:37.676 like in general, storage makes everything better. 0:13:38.676 --> 0:13:41.356 Yeah, and so is the idea. I want to talk 0:13:41.356 --> 0:13:45.196 more about storage broadly in a sect, but a giant 0:13:45.236 --> 0:13:48.316 salt cavern full of hydrogen is cool enough that I 0:13:48.316 --> 0:13:52.796 want to spend another minute on it. So is the 0:13:52.916 --> 0:13:57.276 idea that this project, this hydrogen in a giant salt 0:13:57.276 --> 0:14:01.036 cavern project will essentially be a way to take energy 0:14:01.076 --> 0:14:03.556 that's produced when there is not that much demand and 0:14:03.636 --> 0:14:07.716 essentially use the energy to separate the hydrogen out of water. 0:14:07.996 --> 0:14:10.396 And then that's it's like a battery, it's like a 0:14:10.476 --> 0:14:12.556 hydrogen battery that's just sitting there. 0:14:12.556 --> 0:14:15.156 For the entire Western grid for sure? 0:14:15.276 --> 0:14:17.596 And is that going to like work for sure? Is 0:14:17.636 --> 0:14:20.436 it maybe not going to work? Like? How like? Is 0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:24.036 there technical risk? Is there execution risk? Or is that like, well, yeah, 0:14:24.036 --> 0:14:24.716 that's going to work. 0:14:24.596 --> 0:14:26.876 Great question, Just need the money. So the loan Program's 0:14:26.916 --> 0:14:31.396 office never takes actual technology risk, Okay, right, not today. 0:14:31.716 --> 0:14:33.876 We may have in the past, but not today. So 0:14:34.516 --> 0:14:36.916 this will not have any technology risk associated. We know 0:14:36.956 --> 0:14:39.956 electoralizers work. For the cell caverns work, there will be 0:14:40.036 --> 0:14:42.276 execution risk. Can we take that risk all the time 0:14:42.316 --> 0:14:44.156 because we're doing first of a kind deployments? 0:14:44.756 --> 0:14:47.556 So what could go wrong in this instance? In terms 0:14:47.596 --> 0:14:48.516 of execution risk? 0:14:48.796 --> 0:14:51.636 In general, I would say very little can go wrong. 0:14:52.116 --> 0:14:54.476 What could go wrong is that it would be too expensive, 0:14:54.516 --> 0:14:56.516 that it costs them double what they think it's going 0:14:56.556 --> 0:14:59.356 to cost them to get it working right, and then 0:14:59.476 --> 0:15:01.516 they make a much lower rate of return and now 0:15:01.516 --> 0:15:05.036 they're less interested in keeping it going. But in general, 0:15:05.116 --> 0:15:08.636 the salt cavern concept has been tested and proven forever, 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:11.396 and the electoralizers have been around since the nineteen fifties, 0:15:11.396 --> 0:15:14.716 although this version of it is far more advanced than 0:15:15.116 --> 0:15:19.276 the old one. So I don't think anything will not work. 0:15:19.476 --> 0:15:21.836 I think what will not work is it could be 0:15:22.156 --> 0:15:23.556 two xover budget. 0:15:24.116 --> 0:15:26.956 Right, and therefore not make economic sense. 0:15:27.236 --> 0:15:28.196 Yeah, exactly. 0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:30.876 So I want to go back to storage for a 0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:32.756 secon because you were starting to talk about storage in 0:15:32.796 --> 0:15:36.316 a bigger way, and storage is one of the things 0:15:36.396 --> 0:15:39.876 that smart people seem to worry about when they worry 0:15:39.876 --> 0:15:43.396 about the energy transition. So tell me more about storage. 0:15:44.276 --> 0:15:47.396 So, in terms of storage, the electricity system, as I 0:15:47.396 --> 0:15:52.236 think you suggested earlier, is the largest commodity chain in 0:15:52.276 --> 0:15:57.436 the world that doesn't feature storage. Like every other commodity chain, 0:15:57.516 --> 0:16:01.476 like agriculture or transportation fuels, you have like tank farms 0:16:02.076 --> 0:16:05.676 right in like agriculture you have like grain silos. 0:16:05.956 --> 0:16:10.156 Sure, perhaps the most ancient storage humanity has y is 0:16:10.196 --> 0:16:10.996 grand slamless. 0:16:11.236 --> 0:16:16.076 Everyone feature storage, so electricity has some. So the vast 0:16:16.116 --> 0:16:19.076 majority of our storage in the US electricity grid and 0:16:19.076 --> 0:16:22.156 mostly around the world is pumped hydro. Right where you 0:16:22.196 --> 0:16:24.876 pump hydro uphill when you have access power, and you 0:16:24.956 --> 0:16:27.756 let it flow back downhill and generate power when you 0:16:27.876 --> 0:16:30.676 need power. So you start with that. So now what 0:16:30.716 --> 0:16:34.236 you say is is storage valuable? Yes. When you have storage, 0:16:34.716 --> 0:16:37.476 the variables become a lot easier to manage because you 0:16:37.556 --> 0:16:42.276 have this built in capacity within the commodity supply chain. 0:16:42.556 --> 0:16:45.596 So everything doesn't have to work perfectly just in time, 0:16:45.916 --> 0:16:48.556 which we'd learned during COVID is not something you want 0:16:48.596 --> 0:16:52.196 to do anyway. Long supply chains just in time leads 0:16:52.236 --> 0:16:55.796 to all sorts of disruptions, right, and we're seeing those 0:16:55.796 --> 0:16:59.036 disruptions more acutely now when you have heat domes in 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:04.036 Texas or you know, winter storms in North Carolina, et cetera. Right, 0:17:04.076 --> 0:17:06.876 and so so storage is now being featured. Now, the 0:17:06.956 --> 0:17:10.876 question is how do you do storage. The utilities generally 0:17:10.956 --> 0:17:13.476 like to do things in big, big sections, right, So 0:17:13.516 --> 0:17:17.396 this is like Tesla mega packs in central locations. But 0:17:17.436 --> 0:17:19.436 it turns out there's a lot of people who want 0:17:19.476 --> 0:17:22.116 to do distributed storage. So, for instance, in Puerto Rico, 0:17:22.476 --> 0:17:26.356 almost every solar system comes with batteries, and Luma, who's 0:17:26.356 --> 0:17:29.436 operating the grid now, has just launched a program to 0:17:29.436 --> 0:17:33.116 be able to unlock those three hundred megawatts of batteries 0:17:33.316 --> 0:17:36.676 in people's homes to act as a grid battery. 0:17:36.796 --> 0:17:39.596 All these people who get a solar panel, who get 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:42.196 solar panels on their house and like a battery wall 0:17:42.236 --> 0:17:46.236 to go with it, they can essentially sell the stored 0:17:46.316 --> 0:17:48.876 power in their battery wall back into the grid totally. 0:17:48.876 --> 0:17:51.876 And in Texas they have launched this program to do that, 0:17:52.196 --> 0:17:55.836 and people who participate in that program got their entire 0:17:55.916 --> 0:18:00.996 summer electricity bill zeroed out because the electricity being sold 0:18:00.996 --> 0:18:03.636 by the battery back into the grid was so valuable 0:18:04.196 --> 0:18:06.356 that it zeroed out their whole summer electricity bill. 0:18:07.196 --> 0:18:10.276 So I mean again, these are like the happy versions 0:18:10.316 --> 0:18:14.636 of the storage. People talk about there being hard technical 0:18:14.676 --> 0:18:19.116 problems to solve in terms of finding you know, utility scale, 0:18:19.836 --> 0:18:21.716 cheap enough storage. 0:18:21.956 --> 0:18:25.556 So I don't think that's true. Right. So remember, like 0:18:25.716 --> 0:18:30.156 in the late seventies early eighties, we all decided as 0:18:30.156 --> 0:18:33.276 a country that we wanted air conditioning, so there was 0:18:33.316 --> 0:18:35.876 a lot of air conditioning added to the grid, and 0:18:36.356 --> 0:18:39.356 the way we solved it was through natural gas peaker plants. 0:18:39.716 --> 0:18:42.796 So we built gigawatts and gigawatts over like three hundred 0:18:42.796 --> 0:18:46.316 gigawatts of natural gas peaker plants and more transmission distribution, 0:18:46.796 --> 0:18:49.436 and so that made the curve of how we use 0:18:49.476 --> 0:18:54.476 electricity a higher peak during sunny days right where it's hot, 0:18:54.876 --> 0:18:58.236 and then lower peaks at night. Right, So you can imagine, right, 0:18:58.276 --> 0:19:01.916 So that made our grid less efficient. So that is 0:19:02.036 --> 0:19:03.676 how we live today. 0:19:03.556 --> 0:19:09.076 Cause those peaker plants are an inefficient way to generate power. 0:19:09.356 --> 0:19:10.836 They sit there all the time, they're kind and. 0:19:10.756 --> 0:19:14.276 They run less than eight percent of the year. 0:19:14.516 --> 0:19:19.236 Right, So giant, huge, expensive capital equipment just sitting there 0:19:19.276 --> 0:19:19.916 depreciate it. 0:19:19.996 --> 0:19:24.436 That's exactly off. And so so that budget can be 0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:30.076 diverted to batteries, right, and today the technology that we 0:19:30.556 --> 0:19:34.876 have today can be fully paid for by that budget. 0:19:35.796 --> 0:19:41.476 Good framing, good framing more generally, just to step back again, 0:19:41.516 --> 0:19:44.956 you know, beyond storage, sort of the big picture. What 0:19:44.996 --> 0:19:46.836 are you worried about? 0:19:47.396 --> 0:19:50.316 What I worry about is that Americans don't believe that 0:19:50.396 --> 0:19:53.996 we can do this. Like, for instance, on critical minerals, 0:19:53.996 --> 0:19:56.836 people say, oh, jigger, you guys don't have critical minerals 0:19:56.876 --> 0:19:59.116 lined up. You're still getting it from China. That's because 0:19:59.156 --> 0:20:02.676 we weren't even playing in critical minerals for the last 0:20:02.756 --> 0:20:06.476 until two years ago, like we were not putting our 0:20:06.516 --> 0:20:09.276 shoulder into it. Today we are, guess what we have 0:20:09.356 --> 0:20:12.276 more lithium than any other place on the planet, and 0:20:12.396 --> 0:20:14.676 we can get it out of the ground super cost effectively, 0:20:14.996 --> 0:20:17.236 and we are going to be self supplying ourselves within 0:20:17.276 --> 0:20:19.436 four years because it sort of takes that long to 0:20:19.516 --> 0:20:21.836 get a lithium mine up and running and the processing 0:20:21.836 --> 0:20:24.316 and all that stuff out of Nevada, et cetera. But 0:20:24.356 --> 0:20:27.756 we have all the resources, we just didn't choose to 0:20:27.796 --> 0:20:31.476 prioritize it. But I just feel like sometimes like there's 0:20:31.516 --> 0:20:34.756 this woe is Me thing going on and I don't 0:20:34.836 --> 0:20:38.076 understand it. We have all the technologies, we have the 0:20:38.076 --> 0:20:40.236 ability to commercialize it. We just got to put our 0:20:40.236 --> 0:20:40.956 shoulder into it. 0:20:41.476 --> 0:20:43.476 I like that. I don't want to bring you down, 0:20:44.076 --> 0:20:49.596 but I am interested. I'm interested in what you haven't 0:20:49.596 --> 0:20:52.636 figured out, or what you're uncertain about, or something you 0:20:52.756 --> 0:20:53.876 tried that didn't work. 0:20:54.396 --> 0:20:56.756 Like, I appreciate your Oh that's a very long list. 0:20:57.756 --> 0:21:00.396 Great, what's something now, what's high on it? What's the 0:21:00.436 --> 0:21:02.076 thing that week? I feel urgently. 0:21:02.116 --> 0:21:05.596 I'll give you an example on nuclear right, I had 0:21:05.596 --> 0:21:07.876 a number of electric utilities that came to me and 0:21:07.916 --> 0:21:10.756 basically said we would love to build a nuclear power 0:21:10.756 --> 0:21:12.516 I was like, great, let's figure this out. We like, 0:21:12.716 --> 0:21:15.036 you know, got all these things together, et cetera, et cetera. 0:21:15.396 --> 0:21:17.076 And then they came back to us and said, oh, 0:21:17.116 --> 0:21:18.596 but you have to take one hundred percent of the 0:21:18.636 --> 0:21:22.556 risk away from us. And I was like, that's not 0:21:22.716 --> 0:21:24.796 how this works. I don't know what it is that 0:21:24.836 --> 0:21:28.076 you think is happening. And so we have been working 0:21:28.276 --> 0:21:31.236 our butt off to like ask them questions because we're 0:21:31.236 --> 0:21:33.276 not allowed to force me to do something, but we 0:21:33.316 --> 0:21:37.116 do technical assistance, and so we're saying, is that really 0:21:37.196 --> 0:21:40.076 what you're solving for? Let's break that down into smaller chunks. 0:21:40.316 --> 0:21:42.196