1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. So Congress has given you up to four hundred 2 00:00:21,636 --> 00:00:25,356 Speaker 1: and twelve billion dollars to lend. Yeah, you have like 3 00:00:25,396 --> 00:00:27,756 Speaker 1: a bank account you can log into to see what 4 00:00:27,836 --> 00:00:30,316 Speaker 1: you got left? Do you log in? Like I log 5 00:00:30,396 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 1: into my Chase account to see if I can whatever 6 00:00:32,836 --> 00:00:33,476 Speaker 1: pay my credit? 7 00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:36,876 Speaker 2: There is there is a log in. It's very complicated 8 00:00:37,036 --> 00:00:40,796 Speaker 2: and it requires multiple like you know those keys that 9 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 2: two people have to turn at the same time. 10 00:00:42,756 --> 00:00:52,276 Speaker 1: Well, like the nuclear codes or something. I'm Jacob Goldstein 11 00:00:52,356 --> 00:00:54,716 Speaker 1: and this is What's Your Problem? The show where I 12 00:00:54,796 --> 00:00:58,316 Speaker 1: talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. 13 00:00:58,836 --> 00:01:02,636 Speaker 1: My guest today is Jiggershaw. Jigger founded the solar power 14 00:01:02,716 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: company son Edison and spent decades working in green energy, 15 00:01:06,836 --> 00:01:10,516 Speaker 1: and then in twenty twenty one took a turn. It 16 00:01:10,596 --> 00:01:15,556 Speaker 1: became a government bureaucrat. Specifically, he took a job running 17 00:01:15,676 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 1: the loan Program's office at the US Department of Energy, 18 00:01:19,756 --> 00:01:23,436 Speaker 1: and then last year, as part of the Inflation Reduction Act, 19 00:01:23,756 --> 00:01:28,316 Speaker 1: Congress allocated hundreds of billions of dollars for Jigger's office 20 00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:31,036 Speaker 1: to lend out. The loans are supposed to go to 21 00:01:31,076 --> 00:01:34,516 Speaker 1: companies that are helping the US economy move away from 22 00:01:34,596 --> 00:01:38,436 Speaker 1: fossil fuels. That can mean everything from building new nuclear 23 00:01:38,476 --> 00:01:42,756 Speaker 1: plants to creating a giant hydrogen battery in an underground 24 00:01:42,796 --> 00:01:46,956 Speaker 1: salt cap. Ultimately, jiggers problem is this, what's the best 25 00:01:46,956 --> 00:01:49,876 Speaker 1: way to lend out all that money and do it 26 00:01:49,956 --> 00:01:52,796 Speaker 1: fast enough for the US to meet its climate goals? 27 00:01:56,716 --> 00:01:59,636 Speaker 2: And you know, my feeling is is that for many 28 00:01:59,716 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 2: years entrepreneurs have felt a lack of support from the 29 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:09,756 Speaker 2: US government. Right, there's tax credits which they've they've had 30 00:02:09,836 --> 00:02:14,436 Speaker 2: access to, for sure, but when it comes to commercializing technology, 31 00:02:14,636 --> 00:02:18,396 Speaker 2: that step is always risky, right, Like you've demonstrated the lab, 32 00:02:18,636 --> 00:02:21,436 Speaker 2: you've done a full scale demonstration. Now you need a 33 00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:25,556 Speaker 2: first of a kind facility, manufacturing facility. And many of 34 00:02:25,596 --> 00:02:28,876 Speaker 2: those companies have gone to Europe or Asia to commercialize 35 00:02:28,916 --> 00:02:32,756 Speaker 2: those technologies and not stayed here. So what I think 36 00:02:32,836 --> 00:02:35,356 Speaker 2: our job is is to make sure they all choose 37 00:02:35,396 --> 00:02:39,476 Speaker 2: America for their commercialization and they tie that to the 38 00:02:39,516 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 2: American worker and to American communities. We have for many 39 00:02:43,196 --> 00:02:47,876 Speaker 2: years been the leaders in innovation, but not the leaders 40 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:51,316 Speaker 2: in commercialization. Like all the solar panel technology that China 41 00:02:51,836 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 2: uses to manufacture solar panels were invented here in the 42 00:02:55,196 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 2: United States, or by Martin Green at the University of 43 00:02:57,596 --> 00:03:01,836 Speaker 2: New South Wales in Australia. None of it was invented there. 44 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:05,236 Speaker 2: The same thing's true with lithium phosphate batteries, and so 45 00:03:05,436 --> 00:03:08,196 Speaker 2: they are all these technologies where we're saying China's beating us, 46 00:03:08,196 --> 00:03:11,036 Speaker 2: We're like, well, it's our technology. We decided not to 47 00:03:11,036 --> 00:03:13,796 Speaker 2: commercialize it here. Now we're going to commercialize it here. 48 00:03:14,476 --> 00:03:20,236 Speaker 1: So in terms of how you decide what loans to make, 49 00:03:21,076 --> 00:03:23,436 Speaker 1: is there some amount of money that you want to 50 00:03:23,516 --> 00:03:25,116 Speaker 1: lend by some time? 51 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:31,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, So to me, the goal is not the amount 52 00:03:31,076 --> 00:03:32,916 Speaker 2: of money. Right. As a country, we want to hit 53 00:03:32,956 --> 00:03:36,756 Speaker 2: certain targets, right the President has laid down decarbonization targets 54 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:38,996 Speaker 2: by twenty thirty five and twenty fifty. But we also 55 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:41,516 Speaker 2: have national security concerns, like we want to make sure 56 00:03:41,516 --> 00:03:45,156 Speaker 2: that if people are building new nuclear plants, they're building 57 00:03:45,196 --> 00:03:50,076 Speaker 2: American nuclear plants, not Chinese, Russian, French, or Korean nuclear plants, right, 58 00:03:50,356 --> 00:03:53,036 Speaker 2: And so we want to make sure that we're proving 59 00:03:53,076 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 2: that technology here in this country so that folks in 60 00:03:56,156 --> 00:03:59,916 Speaker 2: other countries feel comfortable choosing our technology. And they have 61 00:03:59,996 --> 00:04:03,356 Speaker 2: been choosing our technology, and so we want to win 62 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:06,476 Speaker 2: that national security battle too, and that's on hydrogen, that's 63 00:04:06,516 --> 00:04:09,636 Speaker 2: on transmission, and so we want to make sure that 64 00:04:09,676 --> 00:04:12,716 Speaker 2: we're winning. We want to meet the moment so that 65 00:04:12,876 --> 00:04:18,076 Speaker 2: these sectors actually get fully commercialized and become low cost 66 00:04:18,236 --> 00:04:20,956 Speaker 2: enough that countries around the world think that they can 67 00:04:21,036 --> 00:04:21,476 Speaker 2: use them. 68 00:04:21,916 --> 00:04:25,836 Speaker 1: So one of the reasons I'm very happy to be 69 00:04:25,876 --> 00:04:29,276 Speaker 1: talking to you is that your job gives you this 70 00:04:29,596 --> 00:04:36,156 Speaker 1: really interesting big picture of what's happening right now in 71 00:04:36,196 --> 00:04:40,476 Speaker 1: the sort of business of energy transition in America. Right 72 00:04:41,516 --> 00:04:43,316 Speaker 1: where we are we need to get where we need 73 00:04:43,356 --> 00:04:46,276 Speaker 1: to get, and maybe in particular, like what do you 74 00:04:46,276 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 1: see as the key bottlenecks there where you're really eager 75 00:04:49,636 --> 00:04:53,596 Speaker 1: to fund projects that will you know, kind of remove 76 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:56,596 Speaker 1: or or help expand what is now whatever is the 77 00:04:56,676 --> 00:04:57,716 Speaker 1: rate limiting step. 78 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:02,996 Speaker 2: What we've learned is Americans want more electricity, right. They 79 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:06,596 Speaker 2: want electric vehicles, they want new manufacturing plants, they want 80 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 2: ai chat GBT alone is going to use ten thousand 81 00:05:10,236 --> 00:05:14,996 Speaker 2: megawatts of new power, and so we need more bulk generation. 82 00:05:15,356 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 2: We need nuclear power, right. I love solar and wind power, 83 00:05:18,796 --> 00:05:20,276 Speaker 2: but we're not going to put all of our eggs 84 00:05:20,316 --> 00:05:22,876 Speaker 2: only in that basket. We need enhanced geothermal, we need 85 00:05:22,876 --> 00:05:26,076 Speaker 2: a low IMPAC hydro and each one of those sectors 86 00:05:26,316 --> 00:05:31,156 Speaker 2: has their own problems, Like geothermal basically is leveraging the 87 00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:34,316 Speaker 2: fracking industry. It's all the innovations in the fracking industry, 88 00:05:34,356 --> 00:05:36,956 Speaker 2: So the oil and gas sector actually has to lead 89 00:05:36,996 --> 00:05:41,516 Speaker 2: that sector. The hydro sector, we have thirty seven gigawatts 90 00:05:41,836 --> 00:05:45,276 Speaker 2: of old hydro dams We're built in the nineteen twenties, thirties, forties, 91 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:48,916 Speaker 2: fifties that need to be relicnsed and extended and a 92 00:05:48,916 --> 00:05:52,036 Speaker 2: lot of those owners are very conservative. How do you 93 00:05:52,076 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 2: figure out a way to help them make that decision 94 00:05:56,076 --> 00:05:59,596 Speaker 2: with next generation fish friendly technologies, right, So that's on 95 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 2: that front. Then you've got the grid. We have a 96 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:05,076 Speaker 2: bunch of technologies that we invented twenty years ago that 97 00:06:05,116 --> 00:06:07,596 Speaker 2: have been fully deployed in the UK and Belgium and 98 00:06:07,716 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 2: Brazil and India, but haven't been deployed here. And so 99 00:06:11,556 --> 00:06:14,516 Speaker 2: how do you align incentives to get the electric utilities 100 00:06:14,996 --> 00:06:18,916 Speaker 2: to use really cheap technologies. For three billion dollars, we 101 00:06:18,956 --> 00:06:23,156 Speaker 2: could actually upgrade the existing grid by thirty percent just 102 00:06:23,236 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 2: by basically changing the capacity of our line based on 103 00:06:26,756 --> 00:06:30,236 Speaker 2: temperature outside. Right now, we rate all of our transmission 104 00:06:30,276 --> 00:06:32,556 Speaker 2: lines to the worst possible day. 105 00:06:33,876 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 1: Uh huh, so you're saying so you're saying transmission lines 106 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:41,636 Speaker 1: on almost every day could carry way more power than 107 00:06:41,676 --> 00:06:43,956 Speaker 1: they do. That's right, but we don't allow them to 108 00:06:43,956 --> 00:06:44,396 Speaker 1: do that. 109 00:06:44,396 --> 00:06:45,316 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. 110 00:06:45,596 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 1: What do we need to do differently in order to 111 00:06:47,996 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 1: do that? What's the problem? 112 00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:52,836 Speaker 2: You just clip a sensor onto the line. It's super cheap. 113 00:06:53,316 --> 00:06:55,596 Speaker 1: Is it really as dumb as that? And if so, 114 00:06:55,676 --> 00:06:56,836 Speaker 1: why hasn't it already happened? 115 00:06:56,876 --> 00:07:00,636 Speaker 2: Because the utility companies in the past made money from 116 00:07:00,756 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 2: deploying money, right, So that's how they like if they so, 117 00:07:04,796 --> 00:07:06,716 Speaker 2: they're like, why do I want to solve that problem 118 00:07:06,796 --> 00:07:08,676 Speaker 2: for one hundred thousand dollars when I can solve it 119 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:09,956 Speaker 2: for a fifty million. 120 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:12,956 Speaker 1: Dollars by what building a new power plant instead of 121 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:15,076 Speaker 1: making the lines more efficient. 122 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 2: Or upgrading the entire distribution system? 123 00:07:17,716 --> 00:07:20,956 Speaker 1: Uh huh. So it's basically bad incentives in the in 124 00:07:20,996 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: the utility. 125 00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 2: Right, But today they feel like their back is up 126 00:07:24,756 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 2: against a wall because so many new plants are coming 127 00:07:27,676 --> 00:07:29,916 Speaker 2: online they can't keep up, and so they're like well, 128 00:07:30,076 --> 00:07:31,676 Speaker 2: we may be forced to do this one hundred thousand 129 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 2: dollars solution because it's the only one fast enough to 130 00:07:34,156 --> 00:07:34,836 Speaker 2: meet our needs. 131 00:07:36,236 --> 00:07:38,476 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a good one. You are in the 132 00:07:38,476 --> 00:07:39,916 Speaker 1: middle of a list. I love a list. 133 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 2: Well, there's only three parts that we list. 134 00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:45,276 Speaker 1: So we were at part number two. What's part number three? 135 00:07:45,396 --> 00:07:48,716 Speaker 2: Part number three is demand flexibility, virtual power plants. Okay, 136 00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:51,156 Speaker 2: So what you're finding is is that there's a lot 137 00:07:51,156 --> 00:07:53,516 Speaker 2: of people buying electric vehicles, and it really is neighborhood 138 00:07:53,516 --> 00:07:55,636 Speaker 2: by neighborhood. When one person gets when of a neighborhood, 139 00:07:55,756 --> 00:07:58,316 Speaker 2: ten more people get it. And if everyone plugs in 140 00:07:58,316 --> 00:08:02,236 Speaker 2: their EV at the exact same time, then you're basically 141 00:08:02,276 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 2: inefficiently using the grid. Today, our grid, which is one 142 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:08,716 Speaker 2: of the most expensive machines in the world, is used 143 00:08:08,716 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 2: about fourty percent of the time, right, so sixty percent 144 00:08:11,236 --> 00:08:15,036 Speaker 2: of the time it's actually underutilized, not used. And so 145 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:17,436 Speaker 2: so if everyone plugs in at the same time, then 146 00:08:17,476 --> 00:08:20,316 Speaker 2: that peak becomes higher. So what you want to. 147 00:08:20,276 --> 00:08:23,356 Speaker 1: There is an incredible surge of demand for power, that's right. 148 00:08:23,356 --> 00:08:25,636 Speaker 1: And the thing about power is you have to give 149 00:08:25,676 --> 00:08:28,596 Speaker 1: everybody power at the exact second they want it, and 150 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:32,836 Speaker 1: that's the store. The supply demand balance with power is notoriously. 151 00:08:32,356 --> 00:08:34,956 Speaker 2: Difficult, but it turns out the vast majority of electric 152 00:08:35,036 --> 00:08:38,876 Speaker 2: vehicle owners plug in their car and leave it plugged 153 00:08:38,916 --> 00:08:40,996 Speaker 2: in for thirteen hours. 154 00:08:41,196 --> 00:08:42,676 Speaker 1: From when they get home from work in the evening 155 00:08:42,716 --> 00:08:43,716 Speaker 1: till they leave the next day. 156 00:08:43,796 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 2: That's right. So then, and they only charge for about 157 00:08:46,556 --> 00:08:50,276 Speaker 2: three hours of that thirteen so it doesn't matter which 158 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:51,876 Speaker 2: three hours they're charging. 159 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:55,596 Speaker 1: Right, right, right, So you don't have to charge everybody's 160 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:58,556 Speaker 1: car at six point thirty when everybody gets home and 161 00:08:58,596 --> 00:08:58,996 Speaker 1: plugs it. 162 00:08:59,036 --> 00:09:01,036 Speaker 2: You can plug in everybody's car at six thirty, but 163 00:09:01,196 --> 00:09:04,396 Speaker 2: the power isn't to flow. So Duke Energy, for instance, 164 00:09:04,556 --> 00:09:07,596 Speaker 2: just launched a plan. They give you a fifty percent 165 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:10,916 Speaker 2: discount on the electricity for you to be more flexible 166 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:12,356 Speaker 2: as to when you charge. 167 00:09:12,796 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 1: Huh, that's if you say, sure, as long as you 168 00:09:17,876 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 1: charge my car between six at night and six in 169 00:09:21,116 --> 00:09:22,996 Speaker 1: the morning, I don't care when you do it. If 170 00:09:23,036 --> 00:09:25,436 Speaker 1: you give me a big discount, I'll charge it whenever 171 00:09:25,436 --> 00:09:25,996 Speaker 1: you want in that. 172 00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:27,876 Speaker 2: Way, that's right. So, and then there's a lot of 173 00:09:27,876 --> 00:09:30,156 Speaker 2: folks who have backup batteries because they chose to do 174 00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:33,316 Speaker 2: a backup battery instead of diesel generator or a gas 175 00:09:33,356 --> 00:09:36,516 Speaker 2: generator for their home, right, so that battery now can 176 00:09:36,516 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 2: be used to help manage the grid. Some folks want 177 00:09:39,636 --> 00:09:42,916 Speaker 2: to opt in their thermostat and they don't really care 178 00:09:43,436 --> 00:09:46,036 Speaker 2: when their house gets cool, as long as it's cool 179 00:09:46,116 --> 00:09:48,396 Speaker 2: for when they get home, right, so that we can 180 00:09:48,956 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 2: make it cool at two in the afternoon, where electricity 181 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 2: is cheaper because there's so much solar power than at 182 00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:54,316 Speaker 2: five o'clock. 183 00:09:54,996 --> 00:09:58,116 Speaker 1: So I like that you're sort of enumerating some of 184 00:09:58,156 --> 00:10:01,756 Speaker 1: the easy ones, right, some of the relatively cheap, huge return, 185 00:10:01,836 --> 00:10:04,676 Speaker 1: low hanging fruit, and I hope that we get all 186 00:10:04,676 --> 00:10:05,956 Speaker 1: of those, and that we get them soon. 187 00:10:05,996 --> 00:10:07,796 Speaker 2: I wouldn't call nuclear easy. 188 00:10:07,756 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: No, okay, never mind nuclear. I like that those last 189 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:14,316 Speaker 1: couple ones you are enumerting, you know, demand flexibility and 190 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:18,796 Speaker 1: transmission flexibility at some level. Like those ones as you 191 00:10:18,836 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 1: describe them, they're like, oh my god, it's so dumb 192 00:10:20,756 --> 00:10:22,716 Speaker 1: that we're not doing that already. And that's great that 193 00:10:22,756 --> 00:10:26,796 Speaker 1: those exist you mentioned nuclear. Obviously, nuclear is very hard 194 00:10:26,916 --> 00:10:30,716 Speaker 1: along many dimensions, not least of which is the political dimension. 195 00:10:31,636 --> 00:10:33,836 Speaker 1: There are other things that have to happen that are 196 00:10:33,836 --> 00:10:36,236 Speaker 1: hard as well, right, Like, what are some of the 197 00:10:36,276 --> 00:10:36,956 Speaker 1: other hard ones? 198 00:10:38,316 --> 00:10:41,036 Speaker 2: Well, hydrogen is hard, right, figuring out whether you know 199 00:10:41,076 --> 00:10:43,516 Speaker 2: there's all these colors of the rainbow. Right, So, green 200 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:46,516 Speaker 2: hydrogen comes from renewal energy. Blue hydrogen comes from natural 201 00:10:46,516 --> 00:10:51,436 Speaker 2: gas with carbon sigustration storage paink hydrogen comes from nuclear power. 202 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 2: But ultimately to me, it's just low carbon hydrogen. And 203 00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:58,396 Speaker 2: each one of them has their own technology cost curve, 204 00:10:58,956 --> 00:11:01,436 Speaker 2: and we're just at the beginning of that cost curve. 205 00:11:05,756 --> 00:11:08,996 Speaker 1: After the break the salt cavern in Utah that may 206 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:21,036 Speaker 1: soon become a gigantic hydrogen filled battery. That's the end 207 00:11:21,036 --> 00:11:23,076 Speaker 1: of the ads. Now we're going back to the show. 208 00:11:23,556 --> 00:11:26,316 Speaker 1: Let's talk about a few of the specific projects that 209 00:11:26,716 --> 00:11:30,156 Speaker 1: a few of the specific loans you've made are about 210 00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:32,996 Speaker 1: to make. I mean, are there some that are just 211 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:36,716 Speaker 1: fun or weird or cool or interesting for whatever reason. 212 00:11:37,276 --> 00:11:39,996 Speaker 2: Well, I'm a nerd, so they're all fun and interesting 213 00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:44,236 Speaker 2: and cool. But I'll name a couple for you. So, Delta, 214 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:46,116 Speaker 2: Utah has one of the largest coal plants in the 215 00:11:46,156 --> 00:11:50,556 Speaker 2: country and a straight transmission line from there to Los Angeles. 216 00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:54,476 Speaker 2: And they also are on top of a bunch of 217 00:11:54,516 --> 00:11:57,436 Speaker 2: salt caverns. It happens to me that these salt caverns 218 00:11:57,476 --> 00:11:59,476 Speaker 2: are some of the best salt caverns in the world 219 00:11:59,556 --> 00:12:02,636 Speaker 2: at storing hydrogen. So one of the projects we just funded, 220 00:12:02,796 --> 00:12:06,076 Speaker 2: called Delta Aces, had a big electrolyizer, one of the 221 00:12:06,116 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 2: largest electrolyizers in the world when we announced it, and 222 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:13,036 Speaker 2: it's under construction and it will it will store one 223 00:12:13,156 --> 00:12:18,996 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty gigawo hours of hydrogen in each salt cavern. 224 00:12:19,316 --> 00:12:22,276 Speaker 2: To put that in perspective for you, the entirety of 225 00:12:22,316 --> 00:12:25,796 Speaker 2: the United States doesn't have one hundred and fifty gigawe 226 00:12:25,796 --> 00:12:30,436 Speaker 2: hours of battery lithium ion batteries in this country. Huh. 227 00:12:30,436 --> 00:12:32,316 Speaker 2: And one salt cavern is going to have it, and 228 00:12:32,356 --> 00:12:35,116 Speaker 2: they've like seven salt caverns they could tap into if 229 00:12:35,116 --> 00:12:35,676 Speaker 2: they wanted to. 230 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:40,516 Speaker 1: Let's do a little more contextualizing, Like gigowot hours is 231 00:12:40,596 --> 00:12:45,156 Speaker 1: one of those classics hard and that you're contextualizing is 232 00:12:45,196 --> 00:12:49,196 Speaker 1: like lithium ion battery, Like that's like nerd on nerd action. 233 00:12:49,476 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 1: So like, what's another way to think of you said 234 00:12:52,156 --> 00:12:54,196 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty gigawat hours, Like, how I don't 235 00:12:54,236 --> 00:12:56,876 Speaker 1: know what's another way to think of how much that is. 236 00:12:57,236 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 2: So that could power the entire state of California for 237 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:02,396 Speaker 2: an entire day. 238 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:05,436 Speaker 1: Okay, that sounds like a lot. 239 00:13:05,596 --> 00:13:08,436 Speaker 2: It's a lot, right, It's a lot. And so this 240 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:11,196 Speaker 2: is this is what I'm saying, is that, like, and 241 00:13:11,236 --> 00:13:13,956 Speaker 2: we're going to need that much storage, right, and not 242 00:13:14,076 --> 00:13:16,076 Speaker 2: just for solar and wind. Everybody wants to say, well, 243 00:13:16,236 --> 00:13:19,596 Speaker 2: these intermittent technologies need a lot of storage, but also 244 00:13:19,636 --> 00:13:22,636 Speaker 2: for nuclear, Like nuclear really wants to run twenty four 245 00:13:22,716 --> 00:13:25,076 Speaker 2: x seven, even though you can turn it down, it 246 00:13:25,156 --> 00:13:28,756 Speaker 2: wants to run all the time. And so when there's 247 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 2: access nuclear power, you need to do something with it. 248 00:13:31,116 --> 00:13:34,196 Speaker 2: You can turn it into hydrogen, right, and so so 249 00:13:34,556 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 2: like in general, storage makes everything better. 250 00:13:38,676 --> 00:13:41,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so is the idea. I want to talk 251 00:13:41,356 --> 00:13:45,196 Speaker 1: more about storage broadly in a sect, but a giant 252 00:13:45,236 --> 00:13:48,316 Speaker 1: salt cavern full of hydrogen is cool enough that I 253 00:13:48,316 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 1: want to spend another minute on it. So is the 254 00:13:52,916 --> 00:13:57,276 Speaker 1: idea that this project, this hydrogen in a giant salt 255 00:13:57,276 --> 00:14:01,036 Speaker 1: cavern project will essentially be a way to take energy 256 00:14:01,076 --> 00:14:03,556 Speaker 1: that's produced when there is not that much demand and 257 00:14:03,636 --> 00:14:07,716 Speaker 1: essentially use the energy to separate the hydrogen out of water. 258 00:14:07,996 --> 00:14:10,396 Speaker 1: And then that's it's like a battery, it's like a 259 00:14:10,476 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 1: hydrogen battery that's just sitting there. 260 00:14:12,556 --> 00:14:15,156 Speaker 2: For the entire Western grid for sure? 261 00:14:15,276 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 1: And is that going to like work for sure? Is 262 00:14:17,636 --> 00:14:20,436 Speaker 1: it maybe not going to work? Like? How like? Is 263 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:24,036 Speaker 1: there technical risk? Is there execution risk? Or is that like, well, yeah, 264 00:14:24,036 --> 00:14:24,716 Speaker 1: that's going to work. 265 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:26,876 Speaker 2: Great question, Just need the money. So the loan Program's 266 00:14:26,916 --> 00:14:31,396 Speaker 2: office never takes actual technology risk, Okay, right, not today. 267 00:14:31,716 --> 00:14:33,876 Speaker 2: We may have in the past, but not today. So 268 00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:36,916 Speaker 2: this will not have any technology risk associated. We know 269 00:14:36,956 --> 00:14:39,956 Speaker 2: electoralizers work. For the cell caverns work, there will be 270 00:14:40,036 --> 00:14:42,276 Speaker 2: execution risk. Can we take that risk all the time 271 00:14:42,316 --> 00:14:44,156 Speaker 2: because we're doing first of a kind deployments? 272 00:14:44,756 --> 00:14:47,556 Speaker 1: So what could go wrong in this instance? In terms 273 00:14:47,596 --> 00:14:48,516 Speaker 1: of execution risk? 274 00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:51,636 Speaker 2: In general, I would say very little can go wrong. 275 00:14:52,116 --> 00:14:54,476 Speaker 2: What could go wrong is that it would be too expensive, 276 00:14:54,516 --> 00:14:56,516 Speaker 2: that it costs them double what they think it's going 277 00:14:56,556 --> 00:14:59,356 Speaker 2: to cost them to get it working right, and then 278 00:14:59,476 --> 00:15:01,516 Speaker 2: they make a much lower rate of return and now 279 00:15:01,516 --> 00:15:05,036 Speaker 2: they're less interested in keeping it going. But in general, 280 00:15:05,116 --> 00:15:08,636 Speaker 2: the salt cavern concept has been tested and proven forever, 281 00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:11,396 Speaker 2: and the electoralizers have been around since the nineteen fifties, 282 00:15:11,396 --> 00:15:14,716 Speaker 2: although this version of it is far more advanced than 283 00:15:15,116 --> 00:15:19,276 Speaker 2: the old one. So I don't think anything will not work. 284 00:15:19,476 --> 00:15:21,836 Speaker 2: I think what will not work is it could be 285 00:15:22,156 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 2: two xover budget. 286 00:15:24,116 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 1: Right, and therefore not make economic sense. 287 00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:28,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 288 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:30,876 Speaker 1: So I want to go back to storage for a 289 00:15:30,916 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 1: secon because you were starting to talk about storage in 290 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 1: a bigger way, and storage is one of the things 291 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:39,876 Speaker 1: that smart people seem to worry about when they worry 292 00:15:39,876 --> 00:15:43,396 Speaker 1: about the energy transition. So tell me more about storage. 293 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:47,396 Speaker 2: So, in terms of storage, the electricity system, as I 294 00:15:47,396 --> 00:15:52,236 Speaker 2: think you suggested earlier, is the largest commodity chain in 295 00:15:52,276 --> 00:15:57,436 Speaker 2: the world that doesn't feature storage. Like every other commodity chain, 296 00:15:57,516 --> 00:16:01,476 Speaker 2: like agriculture or transportation fuels, you have like tank farms 297 00:16:02,076 --> 00:16:05,676 Speaker 2: right in like agriculture you have like grain silos. 298 00:16:05,956 --> 00:16:10,156 Speaker 1: Sure, perhaps the most ancient storage humanity has y is 299 00:16:10,196 --> 00:16:10,996 Speaker 1: grand slamless. 300 00:16:11,236 --> 00:16:16,076 Speaker 2: Everyone feature storage, so electricity has some. So the vast 301 00:16:16,116 --> 00:16:19,076 Speaker 2: majority of our storage in the US electricity grid and 302 00:16:19,076 --> 00:16:22,156 Speaker 2: mostly around the world is pumped hydro. Right where you 303 00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 2: pump hydro uphill when you have access power, and you 304 00:16:24,956 --> 00:16:27,756 Speaker 2: let it flow back downhill and generate power when you 305 00:16:27,876 --> 00:16:30,676 Speaker 2: need power. So you start with that. So now what 306 00:16:30,716 --> 00:16:34,236 Speaker 2: you say is is storage valuable? Yes. When you have storage, 307 00:16:34,716 --> 00:16:37,476 Speaker 2: the variables become a lot easier to manage because you 308 00:16:37,556 --> 00:16:42,276 Speaker 2: have this built in capacity within the commodity supply chain. 309 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:45,596 Speaker 2: So everything doesn't have to work perfectly just in time, 310 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 2: which we'd learned during COVID is not something you want 311 00:16:48,596 --> 00:16:52,196 Speaker 2: to do anyway. Long supply chains just in time leads 312 00:16:52,236 --> 00:16:55,796 Speaker 2: to all sorts of disruptions, right, and we're seeing those 313 00:16:55,796 --> 00:16:59,036 Speaker 2: disruptions more acutely now when you have heat domes in 314 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:04,036 Speaker 2: Texas or you know, winter storms in North Carolina, et cetera. Right, 315 00:17:04,076 --> 00:17:06,876 Speaker 2: and so so storage is now being featured. Now, the 316 00:17:06,956 --> 00:17:10,876 Speaker 2: question is how do you do storage. The utilities generally 317 00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 2: like to do things in big, big sections, right, So 318 00:17:13,516 --> 00:17:17,396 Speaker 2: this is like Tesla mega packs in central locations. But 319 00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:19,436 Speaker 2: it turns out there's a lot of people who want 320 00:17:19,476 --> 00:17:22,116 Speaker 2: to do distributed storage. So, for instance, in Puerto Rico, 321 00:17:22,476 --> 00:17:26,356 Speaker 2: almost every solar system comes with batteries, and Luma, who's 322 00:17:26,356 --> 00:17:29,436 Speaker 2: operating the grid now, has just launched a program to 323 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:33,116 Speaker 2: be able to unlock those three hundred megawatts of batteries 324 00:17:33,316 --> 00:17:36,676 Speaker 2: in people's homes to act as a grid battery. 325 00:17:36,796 --> 00:17:39,596 Speaker 1: All these people who get a solar panel, who get 326 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:42,196 Speaker 1: solar panels on their house and like a battery wall 327 00:17:42,236 --> 00:17:46,236 Speaker 1: to go with it, they can essentially sell the stored 328 00:17:46,316 --> 00:17:48,876 Speaker 1: power in their battery wall back into the grid totally. 329 00:17:48,876 --> 00:17:51,876 Speaker 2: And in Texas they have launched this program to do that, 330 00:17:52,196 --> 00:17:55,836 Speaker 2: and people who participate in that program got their entire 331 00:17:55,916 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 2: summer electricity bill zeroed out because the electricity being sold 332 00:18:00,996 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 2: by the battery back into the grid was so valuable 333 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:06,356 Speaker 2: that it zeroed out their whole summer electricity bill. 334 00:18:07,196 --> 00:18:10,276 Speaker 1: So I mean again, these are like the happy versions 335 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:14,636 Speaker 1: of the storage. People talk about there being hard technical 336 00:18:14,676 --> 00:18:19,116 Speaker 1: problems to solve in terms of finding you know, utility scale, 337 00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:21,716 Speaker 1: cheap enough storage. 338 00:18:21,956 --> 00:18:25,556 Speaker 2: So I don't think that's true. Right. So remember, like 339 00:18:25,716 --> 00:18:30,156 Speaker 2: in the late seventies early eighties, we all decided as 340 00:18:30,156 --> 00:18:33,276 Speaker 2: a country that we wanted air conditioning, so there was 341 00:18:33,316 --> 00:18:35,876 Speaker 2: a lot of air conditioning added to the grid, and 342 00:18:36,356 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 2: the way we solved it was through natural gas peaker plants. 343 00:18:39,716 --> 00:18:42,796 Speaker 2: So we built gigawatts and gigawatts over like three hundred 344 00:18:42,796 --> 00:18:46,316 Speaker 2: gigawatts of natural gas peaker plants and more transmission distribution, 345 00:18:46,796 --> 00:18:49,436 Speaker 2: and so that made the curve of how we use 346 00:18:49,476 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 2: electricity a higher peak during sunny days right where it's hot, 347 00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:58,236 Speaker 2: and then lower peaks at night. Right, So you can imagine, right, 348 00:18:58,276 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 2: So that made our grid less efficient. So that is 349 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:03,676 Speaker 2: how we live today. 350 00:19:03,556 --> 00:19:09,076 Speaker 1: Cause those peaker plants are an inefficient way to generate power. 351 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:10,836 Speaker 1: They sit there all the time, they're kind and. 352 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:14,276 Speaker 2: They run less than eight percent of the year. 353 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:19,236 Speaker 1: Right, So giant, huge, expensive capital equipment just sitting there 354 00:19:19,276 --> 00:19:19,916 Speaker 1: depreciate it. 355 00:19:19,996 --> 00:19:24,436 Speaker 2: That's exactly off. And so so that budget can be 356 00:19:24,516 --> 00:19:30,076 Speaker 2: diverted to batteries, right, and today the technology that we 357 00:19:30,556 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 2: have today can be fully paid for by that budget. 358 00:19:35,796 --> 00:19:41,476 Speaker 1: Good framing, good framing more generally, just to step back again, 359 00:19:41,516 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 1: you know, beyond storage, sort of the big picture. What 360 00:19:44,996 --> 00:19:46,836 Speaker 1: are you worried about? 361 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:50,316 Speaker 2: What I worry about is that Americans don't believe that 362 00:19:50,396 --> 00:19:53,996 Speaker 2: we can do this. Like, for instance, on critical minerals, 363 00:19:53,996 --> 00:19:56,836 Speaker 2: people say, oh, jigger, you guys don't have critical minerals 364 00:19:56,876 --> 00:19:59,116 Speaker 2: lined up. You're still getting it from China. That's because 365 00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:02,676 Speaker 2: we weren't even playing in critical minerals for the last 366 00:20:02,756 --> 00:20:06,476 Speaker 2: until two years ago, like we were not putting our 367 00:20:06,516 --> 00:20:09,276 Speaker 2: shoulder into it. Today we are, guess what we have 368 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:12,276 Speaker 2: more lithium than any other place on the planet, and 369 00:20:12,396 --> 00:20:14,676 Speaker 2: we can get it out of the ground super cost effectively, 370 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:17,236 Speaker 2: and we are going to be self supplying ourselves within 371 00:20:17,276 --> 00:20:19,436 Speaker 2: four years because it sort of takes that long to 372 00:20:19,516 --> 00:20:21,836 Speaker 2: get a lithium mine up and running and the processing 373 00:20:21,836 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 2: and all that stuff out of Nevada, et cetera. But 374 00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:27,756 Speaker 2: we have all the resources, we just didn't choose to 375 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 2: prioritize it. But I just feel like sometimes like there's 376 00:20:31,516 --> 00:20:34,756 Speaker 2: this woe is Me thing going on and I don't 377 00:20:34,836 --> 00:20:38,076 Speaker 2: understand it. We have all the technologies, we have the 378 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:40,236 Speaker 2: ability to commercialize it. We just got to put our 379 00:20:40,236 --> 00:20:40,956 Speaker 2: shoulder into it. 380 00:20:41,476 --> 00:20:43,476 Speaker 1: I like that. I don't want to bring you down, 381 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:49,596 Speaker 1: but I am interested. I'm interested in what you haven't 382 00:20:49,596 --> 00:20:52,636 Speaker 1: figured out, or what you're uncertain about, or something you 383 00:20:52,756 --> 00:20:53,876 Speaker 1: tried that didn't work. 384 00:20:54,396 --> 00:20:56,756 Speaker 2: Like, I appreciate your Oh that's a very long list. 385 00:20:57,756 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 1: Great, what's something now, what's high on it? What's the 386 00:21:00,436 --> 00:21:02,076 Speaker 1: thing that week? I feel urgently. 387 00:21:02,116 --> 00:21:05,596 Speaker 2: I'll give you an example on nuclear right, I had 388 00:21:05,596 --> 00:21:07,876 Speaker 2: a number of electric utilities that came to me and 389 00:21:07,916 --> 00:21:10,756 Speaker 2: basically said we would love to build a nuclear power 390 00:21:10,756 --> 00:21:12,516 Speaker 2: I was like, great, let's figure this out. We like, 391 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:15,036 Speaker 2: you know, got all these things together, et cetera, et cetera. 392 00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:17,076 Speaker 2: And then they came back to us and said, oh, 393 00:21:17,116 --> 00:21:18,596 Speaker 2: but you have to take one hundred percent of the 394 00:21:18,636 --> 00:21:22,556 Speaker 2: risk away from us. And I was like, that's not 395 00:21:22,716 --> 00:21:24,796 Speaker 2: how this works. I don't know what it is that 396 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 2: you think is happening. And so we have been working 397 00:21:28,276 --> 00:21:31,236 Speaker 2: our butt off to like ask them questions because we're 398 00:21:31,236 --> 00:21:33,276 Speaker 2: not allowed to force me to do something, but we 399 00:21:33,316 --> 00:21:37,116 Speaker 2: do technical assistance, and so we're saying, is that really 400 00:21:37,196 --> 00:21:40,076 Speaker 2: what you're solving for? Let's break that down into smaller chunks. 401 00:21:40,316 --> 00:21:42,196 Speaker 2: Are you solving for this? Are you solving for this? 402 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:45,716 Speaker 2: And we have slowly been able to make the conversation 403 00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 2: make more sense. Now. I don't know whether we're going 404 00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:53,916 Speaker 2: to succeed in commercializing nuclear but without our intervention and 405 00:21:54,036 --> 00:21:57,436 Speaker 2: our facilitating the conversation through the technical assistance that we 406 00:21:57,476 --> 00:22:00,236 Speaker 2: can provide, I am one hundred percent sure that nuclear 407 00:22:00,276 --> 00:22:01,276 Speaker 2: power would be nowhere. 408 00:22:01,956 --> 00:22:08,956 Speaker 1: Right. Your work may not be sufficient, but it is necessary. Yeah, 409 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:11,276 Speaker 1: we'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 410 00:22:19,516 --> 00:22:22,116 Speaker 1: Now back to the show. Okay, let's finish with the 411 00:22:22,196 --> 00:22:26,116 Speaker 1: lightning round. Are you ready? Yes, what's one thing you 412 00:22:26,196 --> 00:22:28,396 Speaker 1: learned from working with Richard Branson. 413 00:22:29,756 --> 00:22:35,636 Speaker 2: That it is better to be underestimated than overestimated. Say more, 414 00:22:36,436 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 2: Richard Branson comes off as this sort of playboy, but 415 00:22:40,956 --> 00:22:43,996 Speaker 2: having met him and worked with him, he is as 416 00:22:44,036 --> 00:22:46,956 Speaker 2: smart as they come. But he doesn't allow people to 417 00:22:46,956 --> 00:22:49,916 Speaker 2: write these big articles about how smart he is and how, 418 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:53,916 Speaker 2: you know, extraordinary he has a business, et cetera, because, 419 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:57,316 Speaker 2: like it is, one of his biggest things is to 420 00:22:57,356 --> 00:22:58,196 Speaker 2: be underestimated. 421 00:22:58,876 --> 00:23:01,876 Speaker 1: You've worked in energy for a long time, right, for decades, 422 00:23:01,916 --> 00:23:06,516 Speaker 1: and I'm curious at sort of big blue sky handwavy level, 423 00:23:07,796 --> 00:23:10,156 Speaker 1: what do you feel like you understand and about energy 424 00:23:10,196 --> 00:23:11,716 Speaker 1: that most people don't understand. 425 00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:19,796 Speaker 2: I think that fundamentally energy is innovation, economic growth, right. 426 00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:22,076 Speaker 2: I mean people are talking about how AI is going 427 00:23:22,116 --> 00:23:24,436 Speaker 2: to take over the world. It's not going to take 428 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:29,316 Speaker 2: over the world unless there's enough electricity to supply to AI. Right. 429 00:23:29,636 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 2: When you think about all of the things that we're 430 00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:36,276 Speaker 2: doing to live a modern lifestyle, it all comes from 431 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:42,396 Speaker 2: the premise that we have reliable, affordable, safe energy. 432 00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:44,676 Speaker 1: What's the Jiggershaw rule? 433 00:23:46,596 --> 00:23:48,716 Speaker 2: You shouldn't do dumb policy? 434 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:52,156 Speaker 1: Great, thank you for your time. It was a delight 435 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:52,676 Speaker 1: to talk to you. 436 00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:56,316 Speaker 2: This was a great conversation. Thanks for letting it go 437 00:23:56,796 --> 00:23:59,276 Speaker 2: in the ways that it went. It was fascinating for 438 00:23:59,316 --> 00:23:59,876 Speaker 2: me as well. 439 00:24:05,636 --> 00:24:09,236 Speaker 1: Jiggershaw runs the Loan Program's office at the US our 440 00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:12,916 Speaker 1: Men of Energy. Today's show was edited by Karen Chakerjee, 441 00:24:13,116 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 1: produced by Edith Russolo, and engineered by Amanda K. 442 00:24:16,596 --> 00:24:16,756 Speaker 2: Wall. 443 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:20,956 Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot fm. 444 00:24:20,996 --> 00:24:24,836 Speaker 1: We are always, always always trying to find interesting new 445 00:24:24,876 --> 00:24:26,836 Speaker 1: guests for the show, so if there's somebody who think 446 00:24:26,836 --> 00:24:29,796 Speaker 1: we should book, please let us know. I'm Jacob Goldstein 447 00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 1: and we'll be back next week with another episode of 448 00:24:32,036 --> 00:24:36,876 Speaker 1: What's Your Problem.