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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefphone.

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Speaker 2: Never told you a production of iHeartRadio, and we are

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Speaker 2: coming to the end of the year, of the end

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three, if you're listening to this, whenever

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Speaker 2: you're listening to this, and I was looking for some

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Speaker 2: feminist games, both video games and board games, and women

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Speaker 2: developers of these games for some potential topics and gifts

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Speaker 2: maybe when I ran across the story from May of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. So this is a bit dated, but

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Speaker 2: I totally missed it, and I bet a lot of

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Speaker 2: you did too. I think it's worth talking about because

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Speaker 2: the accidental casual sexism in the exchange is very telling,

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Speaker 2: and I don't think it's gone away, and in fact,

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Speaker 2: it kind of haves some proof. But it hasn't gone

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Speaker 2: away because before you came along, Samantha and I was

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Speaker 2: co host list and I had a lot of very

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Speaker 2: kind people who were very giving in their time come

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Speaker 2: on to do topics.

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Speaker 1: Tracy V.

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Speaker 2: Wilson of Stuffie misson History Class came on and talked

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Speaker 2: about board game design. So you can listen to that episode.

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Speaker 2: But a lot of the things we're talking about in

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Speaker 2: that which was several years ago, are still here of course.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, we also talked to some women board game

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Speaker 2: designers about their experience, so you can check those out

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Speaker 2: for more context. But yeah, a lot hasn't changed. And

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Speaker 2: so Samantha, I'm just going to tell you about this thing.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you're gonna have some thoughts. Oh my gosh. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So here's what happened. Back in May twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Hargrave, who is the designer of the tabletop game Wingspan,

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Speaker 2: posted on social media about some data around the demographics

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Speaker 2: of the board game industry, and she was pointing out

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Speaker 2: that they weren't enough games that were winning awards or

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Speaker 2: even being nominated that were being made by women. And so,

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Speaker 2: from a chart about nominees from Shield de yais the

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Speaker 2: biggest board game awards in the whole industry since nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety nine, five women, I saw four women four or

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Speaker 2: five women had been nominated compared to one hundred and

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Speaker 2: three men, and there had been no women nominated in

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Speaker 2: the last two years at that time. So Hargrave concluded

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Speaker 2: that this wasn't a problem with SDJ as these awards

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Speaker 2: are called for short, but with the pipeline of the

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Speaker 2: whole thing, like who makes a game, who pitches a game,

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Speaker 2: and whose game gets chosen by publishers. And she also

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Speaker 2: said that the numbers are overwhelmingly white men, usually like

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Speaker 2: United States European white men, and this restricts our game options,

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Speaker 2: which seems pretty clear.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: The COO of Aldroroch, which is a big board game company,

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Speaker 2: Ryan Dancy, responded directly to her and this this is

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Speaker 2: some of his response quote. I have taken more than

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Speaker 2: one thousand game pitches since twenty sixteen. I would say

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Speaker 2: less than ten percent of these were from female designers. Effectively,

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Speaker 2: none of them were games AEG would publish. We did

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Speaker 2: a call for submissions from female designers. Specifically, we got

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Speaker 2: one publishable design. There have been a couple of pitches

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Speaker 2: that came close, most commonly where a female pitched with

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Speaker 2: a male designer. There is one team of two female

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Speaker 2: designers that pitch great, but their games are too light

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Speaker 2: for us. I know why we didn't proceed with those pitches,

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Speaker 2: but they were at least in the ballpark. Typically, when

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Speaker 2: I am pitched by a female, the game tends to

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Speaker 2: fall into one of several broad categories. It's a game

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Speaker 2: about politics. In general, we don't publish games about politics.

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Speaker 2: It's a party game. In general, we don't publish party games.

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Speaker 2: It's a pitch from a designer very early in their

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Speaker 2: design journey, and the game isn't competitive enough in their

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Speaker 2: modern market. It usually is either too much like another game,

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Speaker 2: are very generic, or it's more of an idea than

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Speaker 2: a game design I've never been pitched a war game

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Speaker 2: by a female. I've never been pitched a two player

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Speaker 2: fighting game by a female. I've never been pitched a

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Speaker 2: giant fighting robots gain by a female. I actually don't

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Speaker 2: think there's much of a market in those categories because

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Speaker 2: there is so much competition. But I wonder if a

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Speaker 2: game designed by a female would be orthogonal to the

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Speaker 2: existing designer patterns and produce something remarkable. I think there

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Speaker 2: is a significant gap between when someone decides to try

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Speaker 2: and become a game designer and when they produce their

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Speaker 2: first publishable game. Life in that gap consists of a

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Speaker 2: lot of rejection and negative criticism. I wonder if that

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Speaker 2: gap accounts for a good part of the missing female

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Speaker 2: design cohort. Females are socialized in the less to avoid

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Speaker 2: situations where they're subjected to fairly harsh criticism of their

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Speaker 2: abilities and creative ideas. Males are socialized to take the

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Speaker 2: punches and keep moving forward. Getting across the gap is

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Speaker 2: how you turn someone into a real game designer who

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Speaker 2: gets paid for their work and who makes designs that

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Speaker 2: are attractive to publishers. So far, we haven't seen much

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Speaker 2: award consideration go to games that exist almost entirely as

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Speaker 2: crowdfunding projects. I know there are many more females doing

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Speaker 2: game design and production via clowd funding who just don't

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Speaker 2: connect with publishers. The nature of the SDJ is that

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Speaker 2: a crowdfunding game is effectively shut out from consideration. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot to unpacking this. First, he is

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Speaker 2: completely dismissing Hargrave's point and kind of proving her point

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Speaker 2: about how they're not being enough women designers. He is

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Speaker 2: not asking why women designers only made up ten percent,

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Speaker 2: but of seemingly blaming women for not pitching more, but

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Speaker 2: also he's blaming the content of their pitches, which he

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Speaker 2: turned down. He comes back to reemphasize this point later,

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Speaker 2: saying that women are more likely to get crowdfunding and

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Speaker 2: therefore don't make the connections in the industry, but once

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Speaker 2: again fails to give any consideration as to why that

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Speaker 2: is and why that maybe they had to go to

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Speaker 2: ground funding because they kept getting turned down, right mm hmmm,

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Speaker 2: which brings us to the second big issue here. He entirely,

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Speaker 2: entirely dismisses games women are typically pitching as to political

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Speaker 2: or to light like party games, which blows my mind.

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Speaker 2: And then he follows that up with how women don't

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Speaker 2: pitch games about war fighting or robots, which is comically generous.

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Speaker 3: It's hilarious, very specific, sir.

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Speaker 2: It is very specific, and it's like kid level like

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Speaker 2: it is hilarious, except he's making these decisions and then

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Speaker 2: you're like oh, and then he says he doesn't even

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Speaker 2: think they would be successful if they did pitch those

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Speaker 2: games because it's too competitive.

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Speaker 1: Which is wow.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, this is very similar to the conversations we've

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Speaker 2: had around the video game industry and how a lot

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Speaker 2: of people are trying to dismiss games that women play,

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Speaker 2: like mobile games, as less serious or not real games,

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Speaker 2: even though there is a huge proven market for them.

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Speaker 2: People like these games, women play games, and these games

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Speaker 2: make money, Like.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand this, and.

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Speaker 2: Then he basically says women can't handle criticism, our rejection

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Speaker 2: while men are able to Men are able to take

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Speaker 2: it keep going. So women don't pitch. Women aren't tough.

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Speaker 2: I'm also interested in how you handle rejecting women versus

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Speaker 2: rejecting men. But whatever, right. So, as you might imagine,

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Speaker 2: he quickly came under a lot of fire for those

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Speaker 2: response because he did publicly to the point he did apologize.

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Speaker 2: He called it not his finest moment. He outlined some

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Speaker 2: steps that he and the company were going to take

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Speaker 2: to tackle the lack of diversity and ask that we

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Speaker 2: all hold him accountable. But as many pointed out, the

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Speaker 2: fact that he felt comfortable enough applying to one of

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Speaker 2: the few women in the industry who is successful with

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Speaker 2: his original message speaks volumes. Also, her game Wingspan is

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Speaker 2: not a game that falls under the categories. He outlined,

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Speaker 2: It's a very interesting game, but she succeeded with it,

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Speaker 2: it's very popular. And then he sends this response and

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Speaker 2: it is really important during the pandemic the tabletop gaming

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Speaker 2: industry grew. I completely agree with Hargrave about how this

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Speaker 2: lack of diversity negatively impacts our game choices. And if

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Speaker 2: you go back and listen to that episode I did

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Speaker 2: with Tracy, we talk about the health benefits of playing games.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and I do think a lot of the

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Speaker 2: times the things that I love about games designed by women,

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Speaker 2: both tabletop and video games, is the very thing he

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Speaker 2: was so quick to dismiss. So I love a good

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Speaker 2: party game, but I also love games that are different.

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Speaker 2: I like games that mess with how we traditionally view

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Speaker 2: games are games that completely flip what winning is. So

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Speaker 2: the Path is one, which is a video game where

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Speaker 2: basically you have to not complete your mission to win Destiny,

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Speaker 2: which is like you're just trying to make friends. It's lovely.

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Speaker 2: It's such a lovely game though you like have to

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Speaker 2: sing and you make songs together. It's lovely. And I

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Speaker 2: do really want to play this game. Votes for Women,

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Speaker 2: which I know a lot of you have written in

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Speaker 2: about and I've heard great things about from Polygon.

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Speaker 1: Quote.

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Speaker 2: Without the context provided by historical advisor and professor Rachel

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Speaker 2: Michelle Gunter, game designer Tory Brown and developer Keather Bertram's

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Speaker 2: excellent work would not be nearly as impact and Tory

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Speaker 2: Brown because I was like, are these both men they're not.

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Speaker 1: Tory.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I was very confused for a second. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 3: so that's a board game.

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Speaker 2: That is a board game, and it's supposed to be

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Speaker 2: like a lot of the big reviews say like this

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Speaker 2: should be in libraries because it's very educational and cool

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Speaker 2: and people seem to love it. It comes out in January,

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Speaker 2: I think, but I think it already came out, but

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Speaker 2: then it sold out.

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Speaker 1: Immediately, so their second run isn't general.

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Speaker 3: Wow, we have so many games that we need to play.

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Speaker 3: You bought me all of those, all the retro ones.

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Speaker 3: We played a one. We try to play one we need.

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Speaker 3: We had such a large crab of people that it

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Speaker 3: was almost impossible. Instead, we just reread through cars. Eaves

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Speaker 3: was a part of that game. Nights we Need. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we need to bring that back. I still really do

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Speaker 3: want to play with some of the men, like stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know, or stuff you should know.

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Speaker 3: It would be hilarious.

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Speaker 1: Chuck.

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Speaker 3: I know very little of him, but to have him play,

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Speaker 3: but I love that. I mean, we just fun with

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Speaker 3: Lauren from Savor because I'm sure she would have some words.

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I haven't played a lot of those games

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Speaker 2: I don't think i'd played.

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Speaker 3: Played well, obviously I played every single one of them.

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Speaker 3: We try to bring out that Babysitters one and it

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Speaker 3: was so complicated. I was like, how did I play

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Speaker 3: this as a teenager? I don't remember? And I played

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Speaker 3: it by myself for the most part. Maybe that's why.

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Speaker 2: Well I told you my story of the cool kids.

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Speaker 2: My mom invited who I viewed cool kids from school

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Speaker 2: when I was playing Polly Pocket by myself to try

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Speaker 2: to figure out the rules when they walked in, and

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Speaker 2: I mean, what have I done to deserve such.

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Speaker 3: Was so fascinating, And because you know I'm all about

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Speaker 3: my phone games that they there are so many revamps

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Speaker 3: of these phone games being board games, and you already

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Speaker 3: know I talked about one. I'm not gonna mention because

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Speaker 3: it's too much, but yes, it is a play on capitalism.

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Speaker 3: We know this game made everyone get into fights and

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Speaker 3: probably was either thrown away and or put up for

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Speaker 3: a month at a time because the parents had had enough.

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Speaker 3: So there's the different variations of this game on the phone.

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Speaker 3: And the one I played is like very interactive in

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Speaker 3: community and very angry and mean. Is no longer Debra

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Speaker 3: It is now a person called Kissy Bear, and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: what the hell, Kissy.

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Speaker 1: Bear your enemies? The list grows longer.

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Speaker 3: Some of these people I helped out and all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden they are attacking me. I'm like what anyway,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sorry, But my thought is I wonder because

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Speaker 3: this level of like playing by ourselves of these games

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Speaker 3: like this is to a whole new level. Of course,

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Speaker 3: again the variation is different, but I wonder if there's

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Speaker 3: like a mal madness phone game where you can play

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Speaker 3: by yourself or again this type of game which I've

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Speaker 3: played by myself many times. I used to play a

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Speaker 3: game called Payday. Do you all remember this game? It

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Speaker 3: was like a calendar, it was a search. I do

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Speaker 3: not remember this game completely, and like it was one

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Speaker 3: of our favorite games because it was kind of like

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Speaker 3: this other game, the other big game, but like downskilled okay, interest,

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Speaker 3: But I wonder, like with the phone level, like where

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Speaker 3: we can see that this has nothing to do with

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Speaker 3: the women, but at what we does. Because we talked

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Speaker 3: about the fact though the phone games, which are not

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Speaker 3: being considered as gaming, is the number one money maker

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Speaker 3: and if you are a part of this industry, it's

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Speaker 3: a smart way to go. But yeah, I wonder how

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Speaker 3: many of these games we can play by ourselves and

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Speaker 3: have been fitted for mobile phone games.

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Speaker 2: That's true, that's an interesting We should follow up on that.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I do love a game. I love a

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Speaker 2: game you can play by yourself, but I also love

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Speaker 2: a game you can play with two people.

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Speaker 1: Those are kind of rare, too.

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Speaker 3: Right, there have been. It's like the rarety is anything

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Speaker 3: beyond six people that much like you can't find many

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Speaker 3: of those unless you find like the large party games

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Speaker 3: such as were Wolf, which we've played many at times,

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Speaker 3: or the two player games are gazing by yourself. Oh anyway,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, that's very interesting. Again, like this is that

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Speaker 3: same level of conversation of what is considered gaming, who

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Speaker 3: deserves the rights, and how much opportunity is there?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, it was just a very clear example of

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Speaker 2: like somebody missing the whole point.

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Speaker 3: I bet those games like Girl Talk and all that,

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Speaker 3: And again, I know this is dated, very sexist games,

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Speaker 3: but I'm sure they won awards because they were big sellers.

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Speaker 2: Ooh. I was honestly, like, I was looking into this

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Speaker 2: and I wanted a Monday many so I stopped. But

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Speaker 2: I looked into the history of women playing board games,

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Speaker 2: and there's a rich history there. Uh, why did you

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Speaker 2: stop women playing and designing board because that's a whole episode.

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Speaker 1: It is not a Monday.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, my gosh, okay, because apparently at

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Speaker 2: one time it was considered kind of in the realm

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Speaker 2: of domesticity women would make games because they were supposed

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Speaker 2: to be in charge of entertaining children. But all there

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Speaker 2: was the other side of it too though, that was

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Speaker 2: the very political part where they were making games like

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Speaker 2: suffer jetto and so it was really interesting. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot to talk about.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if I came into play with like gambling

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Speaker 3: that men started taking over.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it could be. I go back to that.

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Speaker 2: The cover of battle Ship from the nineteen fifties that

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Speaker 2: you and I discussed when we went over these kind

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Speaker 2: of very gendered games where it was the men and

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Speaker 2: the husband presumably and his son playing battleship and in

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Speaker 2: the background the mom and daughter were doing dishes. And

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Speaker 2: this was the cover of the game.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I remember the one with the girl watching behind

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Speaker 3: the father or brother as the games happened, But it

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Speaker 3: was definitely the father and the son.

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Speaker 2: Right it sort of became like, well, you should be

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Speaker 2: doing a house and we can play, or like maybe

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Speaker 2: you were not competitive enough to you're not tough enough

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Speaker 2: to handle losing or something.

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Speaker 3: Go play with your paper dolls and get rested up.

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Speaker 1: It was very bizarre. It's very strange.

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Speaker 2: So probably will be a full episode in the new

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Speaker 2: year though, yeah that is a four episode, but yes,

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Speaker 2: that's always listeners. If you have any recommendations for board

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Speaker 2: games or any thoughts about this, that would be great

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Speaker 2: because I was looking for like, Okay, these games.

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Speaker 1: What are these games I can play that are different

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Speaker 1: that are made by women? Let us know.

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Speaker 2: You can email us a steffant your mom Stuff at

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Speaker 2: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at

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Speaker 2: mom Stuff podcast, or Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've

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Speaker 2: Never Told You If we have a tea public store

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Speaker 2: and a book gift ideas or you get you your books.

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Speaker 2: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina or executive

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Speaker 2: producer Maya and your contributor Joey.

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Speaker 3: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.

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Speaker 2: Stuff I've Never Told You is production of iHeart Radio.

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