1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: My lul. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In Today, we're bringing you 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: an interview with Dr David Grinspoon. That's right. Uh. Dr 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: David Grinspoon is an astrobiologist, award winning science communicator, and 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: prize winning author, and is a senior scientist at the 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Planetary Science Institute um YES and he is the co author, 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,639 Speaker 1: along with Dr Alan Stern, principal investigator of the New 10 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: Horizons Mission. They're the authors of Chasing New Horizons Inside 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: the epic first Mission to Pluto. This was a really 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: fun conversation. I'm really glad we've got to talk to 13 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: David about Pluto, about space exploration, about planets in general. 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: And I think you are going to love this conversation. 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: That's right, even if you're not that into Pluto, or 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: you think you're not that into Pluto. Uh. Is also 17 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: some venous talk in there, so it's it's tremendous. Definitely 18 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: check it out. We're just gonna dive right into the 19 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: interview and meet you on the other end. All right, well, 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show on Stuff to Blow 21 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: your Mind. Would you please introduce yourself to our listeners. 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: And my name is David Grinspoon. I'm an astrobiologist at 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: the Planetary Science Institute UM and I study planetary evolution 24 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: and I get involved in some spacecraft missions to other planets, 25 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: and I've I've written a few books, most recently Chasing 26 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: New Horizons Inside the Epic First Mission to Puto, which 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: I co authored with Alan Stern, who was the h himself, 28 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: the leader of the Epic First Mission to puta awesome man. 29 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: I just want to stress to everyone listening this is 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: a great book and if anyone is scared off from it, thinking, oh, 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to read about space probes and a 32 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: far flung dwarf planet, I just want to reassure them 33 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: that this is not only a very insightful book, it's it. 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: It really has and it really is a narrative of 35 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: the adventure in many respects. So I wanted to ask, 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: how did how did you come to write, uh, to 37 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: come to co author what some have called a nonfiction 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: Michael Crichton novel. Well, I like that, UM, I like 39 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: that description. Yeah, Well, this story, the story of New 40 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: Horizons and of the exploration of Pluto, is one that 41 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: I've been following closely for a long time, uh, much 42 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: longer actually than there was a mission called New Horizons. 43 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: There was an effort to send a mission to Pluto, 44 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: and it just so happened that being a planetary scientists 45 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: and coming up through you know, grad school and and 46 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: all that, at a certain time that a lot of 47 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: the people that I'm close with and friends with um 48 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: and have known for a long time have been caught up, 49 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: uh and became part of this this effort. So this 50 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: was a struggle that people were going through who I 51 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: knew well for for decades, and at times it seemed 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: like a very quixotic journey, like there's no way this 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: is going to happen. I can't believe what these guys 54 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: are going through. I can't believe they're not giving up. 55 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: And and I remember thinking, you know, well over a 56 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: decade ago, probably a couple of decades ago, Wow, you know, 57 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: if these guys ever actually succeed in doing this, it's 58 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: gonna be a great story. It's gonna make a great 59 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: book someday. It's gonna be a great book anyways, because 60 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: of what these guys are going through. But if they 61 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: actually succeed, it's gonna be an amazing book. I remember 62 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: thinking that, um. And then more recently in UM I 63 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: guess two thousand and fourteen, when New Horizons was actually 64 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: approaching Pluto, finally Alan Stern, who I've known for a 65 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: long time, approached me and said, hey, I'm thinking of 66 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: I want to write a book about New Horizons, and uh, 67 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: I want to do it with with a co author, 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: and and you're my first choice. And um, I was. 69 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: I was really psyched. I mean, you know, when you 70 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: get an offer like that, what's the right answer? You know, yes, 71 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: of course. And so so we agreed to enter into 72 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: a partnership and and try to tell the story. UM. 73 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: And you know that had that had its own kinds 74 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: of challenges because obviously Alan's relationship to the story is 75 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: very different from mine. And how are we gonna sort 76 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: of combine our two perspectives and U and tell tell 77 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: the story where he you know, he's a character in 78 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: the book. UM, and it's it's his mission. But we 79 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: we worked really hard on that and thought about how 80 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: we could use that as a strength or that you know, 81 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: the kind of combination of our two perspectives, and I, uh, 82 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: it was. It was tricky, but I think we succeeded 83 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: in producing a book that that not only tells a 84 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: pretty exciting story, but does it in a unique way. Absolutely. Uh. 85 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: You know, at time treating this book, I kept coming 86 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: back to a question that I guess made may sound 87 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: a little cheeky, but but also probably gets to some 88 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: of the challenges of the space exploration. Whether it's harder 89 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 1: to send a spacecraft to Pluto or to successfully push 90 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: a mess mission proposal through NASA. And I want to 91 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: come back to that, you know, get your thoughts on that, 92 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: but but I thought it might be nice to touch 93 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: on that, that first challenge and uh, you know the 94 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: amazing methods that we use to send spacecraft through the 95 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: Solar System. Would you tell our listeners about our early 96 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: dreams of a grand tour and the time frame for 97 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: capitalizing on what you describe is excellently described in the 98 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: book is a kind of stargate. Yeah. Well, um, I 99 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: love the first part of your question, So we definitely 100 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: need to get back to that, because yes, it's there's 101 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: some ways in which it's harder to navigate h Washington, 102 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: d C. Than than um, than the outer Solar System. 103 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. Both both have their own challenges and 104 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: you have to learn how to be good at both 105 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: if you want to do this. But um, the Grand 106 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: Tour um, Yeah, so well, it's it's very difficult to 107 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: send the spacecraft as far as Pluto um. And if 108 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: you were just going to launch from Earth with a 109 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: normal rocket and just try to head out there, it 110 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: would take um, well much longer than the New Horizons took. 111 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: You know, when New Horizon basically took only a decade 112 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: to cross the Solar System. It would take longer because 113 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: the distances are so great. But um, you can take 114 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: advantage of something called a gravitational assist where you fly 115 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: in close to a giant planet with a huge gravitational pool, 116 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: and if you aim and just the right way, um, 117 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: then you use the gravity the giant gravitational pool of 118 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: that giant planet to sort of sling shot you around. 119 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: You know, it pulls you in, but you miss the 120 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: planet and then it flings you out and you have 121 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: to aim just right. But you can use that to 122 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: get a boost, a big pick up and speed, which 123 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: makes it much quicker to execute the rest of your 124 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: journey across the Solar System if you've if you've done 125 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: everything right. And the first time this was really used 126 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: to dramatic effect was the Voyager mission. The Voyager missions 127 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: which we're you know, our first close fly bys of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, 128 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: and Neptune Voyagers. They launched in nineteen seventy seven, the 129 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: Neptune encounter, a Voyager two was which was the last 130 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: one was nine. So all through the late seventies and 131 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: in the eighties, these missions were going planet to planet 132 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: and sort of expanding our our knowledge of our Solar 133 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: System and dramatic encounters. And there's a certain element of 134 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: luck there that a lot of people really aren't probably 135 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: aware of. But if you look historically, I mean, you know, 136 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: we started sending spacecraft to other planets in the sixties 137 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: and you know, the Venus Mars in the sixties, and 138 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: then um started thinking about farther, going farther afield, and 139 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: it just so happens that occasionally there's a lineup of 140 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: all the planets and just the right way so that 141 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: if you launch at the right time, you can sling 142 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: shot past Jupiter and then that sends you to Saturn, 143 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: and then you sling shot past Saturn, and that sends 144 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: you to Uranus, and then to Neptune and then to Pluta, etcetera. Um. 145 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: And but you have to picture the planets have to 146 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: be lined up just right, sort of like beads on 147 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: a spiral going out from the Sun, and that alignment 148 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: only happens every couple hundred years. And the amazing historical 149 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: luck that I that I was mentioning that people aren't 150 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: aware of, is that in the late nineteen sixties early 151 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, scientists became aware, you know, just when we 152 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: were gaining the ability to launch spacecraft off of birth 153 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: and going to the planets for the first time, scientists 154 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: became aware that one of these what they call Grand 155 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: Tour alignments was coming up in the late nineteen seventies 156 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: and eighties, so that if you launch to spacecraft by 157 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: the mid to late nineteen seventies from Earth, you could 158 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: do this Grand tour and go all the way out 159 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: to Earnest Neptune, Pluto. But if you missed that window, 160 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: that nineteen seventies window, you wouldn't get another chance like 161 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: this for a couple of hundred years, so so you know, 162 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: it started just in the nick of time, but it 163 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: was also a rush to launch because this. People realized this, 164 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: and the scientists proposed a Grand Tour in the early seventies, 165 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 1: and then Congress said, no, that's too expensive, go back 166 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: to the drawing board. And they were like, well, we 167 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: don't have much time to get this together. You know. 168 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: There was some drama there, but they reproposed and Voyager 169 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: got approved, and the Grand Tour mission became the Voyager mission, 170 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: which culminated in uh in the encountered the amazing encounter 171 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: with Neptune and it's moon Triton in nine with Voyager two, 172 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: and as we tell in the book Chasing New Horizons, 173 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways of that encounter set the 174 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: stage for the desire to go to Pluto because with Neptune, uh, 175 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: you know, it was sort of all over for that 176 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: generation and people, young scientists were like, well, wait a minute, 177 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: there's more to explore. What are we going to do? 178 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: And Triton, which was the last place the Voyager went, 179 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: little moon of of Neptune is is a very sort 180 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: of Pluto like place of really strange, icy world with 181 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: solid nitrogen basins and all this strange activity and geography, 182 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: and it made people think, gosh, if we could only 183 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: send a mission to Pluto. And right sort of in 184 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: the wake of the end of the Voyager mission, at 185 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: least the Voyager planetary encounters was born the desire uh 186 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: you know, it really a nine for this, this crazy 187 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: idea of sending a mission to Pluto, which culminated, uh 188 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, twenty six years later with a successful fly 189 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: by of Pluto by New Horizons in two fifteen. Now 190 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: you were talking about gravity assist there, and and of 191 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: course that what ultimately became New Horizons, the New Horizons mission, 192 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: and went through You discuss all the different sort of 193 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: versions of the proposal. At one point the proposal was 194 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: actually actually involved sending a craft towards the Sun first. Right, Oh, yeah, 195 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: there was one UM trajectory that would have worked um 196 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: as far as using these gravitational encounters to get to Pluto. 197 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: But it would have involved going towards the Sun and 198 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: flying by Venus first and then back by Earth, and 199 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: which is by the way, something that is UM done. 200 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: Uh you know, that's actually how both both Galileo and 201 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: Cassini on their way to Jupiter and Saturn both did 202 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: Venus five bys um. Sometimes you go in and pick 203 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: up speed and then you fling back outwards. But it 204 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: was really not optimal for a small Pluto mission, and 205 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: it was It would have worked, but it would have 206 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: taken more years um and it already takes a long 207 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: time to get out to Pluto um and also um. 208 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: I mean it would have saved energy and money, and 209 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: that's the other thing. You're not just doing this to 210 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: save time on the journey. You you want to launch 211 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: a smaller rocket and still have enough energy to get 212 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: to uh the outer Solar System, and that's where these 213 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: encounters help you also by kicking up speed. So it 214 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: would have worked, but you also it's not optimal because 215 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: when you're designing something to endure the coldness of the 216 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: outer Outer Solar System where Pluto is, you really don't 217 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: want to send that spacecraft in towards the Sun and 218 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: endure the thermal environment near Venus if you can help it. 219 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: So it was one of the things that came onto 220 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: the table to possibly save the Pluto mission, which had 221 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: to be done multiple times when things got canceled and 222 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: the budget got constricted or whatever. But it turned out 223 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: to not really be the best way to do it. Yeah, 224 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: you lay out, you know, all the close calls that 225 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: just the you know, the the quest to send a 226 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: craft to Pluto went through. How many close calls were there, 227 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: and how astounding is it that the mission happened at all. 228 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: It really is kind of a Perils of Pauline story, 229 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, where everything that can go wrong almost did 230 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: go wrong. UM. And you know that's that's part of 231 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: part of why I love the story, because we wanted 232 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: to let people know not just what happened and how 233 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: it was done, but really what it takes to get 234 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: something through the system and all the different things that 235 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: can derail it. And this story kind of combines all 236 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 1: of those hazards it. Uh, it had to be Um. 237 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: It was canceled by two different successive presidential administrations. UM. 238 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: And that you know, one of the risk of these 239 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: things is the time scale is long enough that you 240 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: get it through and the government finally says, yeah, we're 241 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: gonna fund this, we like it. And then you get 242 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: a new government that wasn't our idea, forget it. And 243 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: this happened multiple times, UM. And then you know, they 244 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: sort of kept changing the rules on new horizons. And 245 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: then there you know, there were so many interesting crises. 246 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: One was had to do with a nuclear power that 247 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: you have to have a nuclear power source when you're 248 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: going that far from the sun um, and that introduces 249 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: other um hazards. I mean just just in terms of 250 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: the regulation. Uh, it's crazy getting something like that approved, 251 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: especially when you've got a ticking clock and you have 252 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: to launch by a certain date or you're gonna miss 253 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: your Jupiter fly by window. And so that was tricky. 254 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: And then all these things happened. Lost Lost Albumos Lab, 255 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: which is the only place where they make the plutonium, 256 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: got shut down because of a security breach um and uh, 257 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: they weren't gonna have enough time to get enough plutonium. 258 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: And you know, so that's one whole area of of intrigue. 259 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: And and you know near Mishap and then you know, 260 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: there were there were a couple of just unfortunate technical accidents. 261 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: There were um, you know, there was a lot of 262 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: kind of like political um uh just maschinations within NASA 263 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: and outside of NASHA that outside of NASA that doomed 264 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: seemingly doomed to the mission again and again. And and 265 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: this team, this crazy team of you know, they called 266 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: themselves the Pluto Underground that were committed to this goal. 267 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: They kept having to pick themselves up and dust themselves 268 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: off and basically start again. And UM it's really it's 269 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: really an amazing story of perseverance that they just didn't 270 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: let it go. Yeah. I mean not only the you discussed, 271 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: not only like the technological hurdles and then of course 272 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: the political sphere, but but even just within the realm 273 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: of space exploration, like suddenly, given that that grand times 274 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: span for the for the project, Uh, new new things 275 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: become exciting just within the realm of space exploration that 276 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: can potentially detract from a mission like this, right, yeah, absolutely, 277 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: So you know there's something that something comes along. You know, 278 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: again we're talking to an effort that started really succeeded 279 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: in two fifteen, and you know, it's a shifting landscape. 280 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: New discoveries happened, UM, new constituencies form with a NASA 281 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: to do do other kinds of missions. I mean, for instance, 282 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: one thing that that came along UM during this time 283 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: period was that Europa, the icy moon of Jupiter got 284 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: much more interesting in the in the sense that we 285 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: discovered UM with the Galletle mission. We discovered that Europa 286 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: likely has an ocean and is a possible habitable environment. 287 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: So um, the Pluto mission is doing well, and then 288 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there's this huge movement within the 289 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: planetary science community to divert resources and compete a mission 290 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: to Europa instead because of these discoveries, and and you know, 291 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: nobody on the New Horizons team is going to argue, well, 292 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: Europe is not interesting and not important. I wouldn't argue 293 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: that that for second. Everybody, you know, we all acknowledge 294 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: that these are all important goals. But there's the shiny 295 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: new thing all of a sudden. You know, we've been 296 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: waiting our turn, you know, so that things things like 297 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: that happened multiple times. I actually have heard of like 298 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: a planetary partisanship before. You know, I had a friend 299 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: who did some research on Jupiter's moon Io and she 300 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: had some kind of negative things to say about Europa. Well, okay, 301 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: I mean there is there is definitely an element of that. 302 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: And in a way, then the way NASA sets up 303 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: it's UM it's competition for missions UM kind of encourages that. 304 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: Because there are these different UM interest groups within NASA. 305 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: There's like I mean, I'm really interested in Venus exploration. 306 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: So I'm part of this group called VEX at the 307 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: Venus Exploration Activities Group, And there's me PAG, which is 308 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: the Mars Exploration Activities Group, and then there's the Outer 309 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: Planets Activities Group. And you know, when we when NASA 310 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: does their annual decadal ranking of mission priorities, were sort 311 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: of organized into these different constituencies and we're all putting 312 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: our favorite mission forward. So there is this competition, um 313 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: and then even beyond that, when there's a call for 314 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: new mission, you know there's going to be a small 315 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: or medium class or large class mission. Different teams compete, 316 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, And I've been on these teams and you 317 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: put years into these missions, and you compete really hard. 318 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: So of course you want your mission. I mean, I 319 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: want my Venus mission that I'm a co investigator on 320 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: to be selected. And then when an asteroid mission or 321 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: a Jupiter mission or something gets selected instead, I'm really 322 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 1: bummed about that same time. So that's true, and that's 323 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: partly just a measure of the way we compete things. 324 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: But I do have to say, and I and this 325 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: is really true, that there's a larger sense in which 326 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: we're all um on the same team and feel that way. 327 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: So that when the competition is over and one of 328 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: these missions comes to the launch pad, whether it's a 329 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: Mars mission and asteroid mission, uh whatever, everybody in the 330 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,959 Speaker 1: community cheers that launch. I mean because we all, you know, 331 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: when you back up from that, we're all pretty psyched 332 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: about exploring the whole Solar System. And even though you'll 333 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: hear me and some of my colleagues grumble about, oh my, 334 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: got another Mars mission got funded, about Venus, what about 335 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: you know, but then then when that Mars mission actually 336 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: launches and land successfully, we get tears in our eyes too, 337 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: and we're like, this is so amazing. So you know, 338 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: we yeah, we compete for our separate constituencies, but we 339 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: all I think also um genuinely um root for and 340 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: identify with the larger project of of exploring the sol 341 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: war system. Yeah, I want to be clear in case 342 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: my friend is listening, she I think she was joking 343 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: when she was slagging. Well, I mean, we do joke 344 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: about it, you know, every scheme and like Mars, I 345 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: hope people you know, but at the end of the day, 346 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: we're I mean, and you know, of course you get 347 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: personal um, grudges and all, you know, and there's human 348 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: human beings are human beings. But at the end of 349 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: the day, uh, we're all pretty excited about about all 350 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: of the exploration. All Right, we're gonna jump in here 351 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: and take a quick break, but we'll be right back. 352 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: Thank and we're back. I found it really astounding, especially 353 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: to think about this as we were at the very 354 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: close of the decade as we recording this. But at 355 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: one point, I think during two thousand you mentioned that 356 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: NASA to shelve the idea of a Pluto mission altogether 357 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: until the twenties. So I think it's it's amazing to 358 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: think that there's like an alternate timeline out there in 359 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: which you and Alan might have written a book about 360 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: the desire for a Pluto mission in the twenties rather 361 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: than what we have a definitive history of the planet's 362 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: first exploration. That's right. I mean, there's so many alternate 363 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: timelines like that, And this was a case where basically, um, 364 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: you know, more than once NASA let it, you know, 365 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: got to the stage where there's going to be a 366 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: competition for this mission, which is a huge win for 367 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: the people wanting to go to Pluto. It's like NASA 368 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: sponsoring a competition for proposals. That means that they're going 369 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: to pick a winning proposal and then somebody gets to 370 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: fly mission a Pluto and hopefully it's our team, but 371 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: at least it's some team, so that's great. But then 372 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: they have this competition and everybody works really really hard 373 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: on all their proposals and you know, it's just crazy 374 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: the amount of effort to get this in and then 375 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: NASA says at the end of it, well, actually we're 376 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: not picking anybody, and um, the whole concept is is 377 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: canceled um because a budget problems. And by the way, 378 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: we're just not going to go to Pluto for the 379 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: next twenty years. So that was actually something that was 380 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: declared by the Associate Administrator of NASA at one point, 381 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: and that was really a low point for the morale, 382 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: as you can imagine. But there were interesting things that happened, 383 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: um at that point. Um, there was a big public 384 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: interest campaign that was the Planetary Society got involved. There 385 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: are a group that advocates a public membership group that 386 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: advocates for planetary exploration and other um, you know, the 387 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: public got involved and there was a lot of pressed 388 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: about this, and people were like demanding, no, we want 389 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: our government, we want NASA to send a mission to Pluto. 390 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: And then NASA got tens of thousands of letters saying 391 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: you can't cancel Pluto, we want this. And so there 392 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: were points, and that that point you mentioned where it 393 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: was completely canceled was one in particular, where the public 394 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: input became really key to keeping the effort going. UM. 395 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: And you know, of course there were efforts by the 396 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: Pluto underground to sort of help marshal that public interest 397 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: and encourage letter writing, but at the same time it 398 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: was really genuine. There was there was indeed an outpouring 399 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: of mass public support. And UM. That's another thing that's 400 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: interesting I think about the whole story. Was it at 401 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: the heart of it, there's this band of sort of 402 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: I guess I don't want to quite call them fanatics 403 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: but almost but like you know, really uh determined UM 404 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: scientists UM who wanted to do this UM. But then UM, 405 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: there's also the larger planetary scientists community that had to 406 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: be sort of won over to their cause. And then 407 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: and then outside of that there's just the public that 408 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: got very in all then at times UM. The support 409 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: of the public was pivotal in UM keeping the effort 410 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: going and ultimately and ensuring a success. So we know 411 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: you have a special place in your heart for Venus, 412 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: and maybe we can come back to that later on. 413 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: But what is so captivating in particular about Pluto. Well, Pluto, 414 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: of course, you know, historically it's been the place that 415 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: we just didn't know anything about UM and uh so 416 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: it was you know in science fiction from the golden 417 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: age of science fiction in the you know, sixties, seventies, eighties, 418 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: when we really didn't know anything about Pluto. It's this 419 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: UM it's kind of mystery world UM. And there's a 420 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: lot of great law laura about Pluto. But then, of course, scientifically, 421 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: once we started to learn about the existence of the 422 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: Cooper Belt, which is this whole third realm of the 423 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: Solar System. You know, you've got the inner rocky planets, 424 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: the outer gas giants, and then the outer outer Coiper Belt, 425 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: which is this vast zone of these icy and rocky objects, 426 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, millions of them beyond the orbit of Neptune 427 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: that we didn't even know about. All we knew about 428 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: was Pluto. It turned out we discovered really in the 429 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: in the ninetees that Pluto is the tip of the 430 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: iceberg of this huge unknown realm of the Solar System, 431 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: and so that in itself made it very interesting to 432 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: want to go and visit one of these bodies, because 433 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: those are leftovers from the formation of the Solar System, 434 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: you know, they're sort of leftover building pile of building 435 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: materials that made the planets. So we know there's answers 436 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: out there too, questions of our own origins. But then, 437 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, there was always the possibility, certainly in my mind, 438 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: and I know in the mind of some of the 439 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: other um, some of the people involved in the mission, 440 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: that well, what if, against all odds, this thing actually 441 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 1: works and we get to Pluto, and then what if 442 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of boring. It's cool to get there, no 443 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: matter what, but what if it's just kind of like 444 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: a a crater ice ball. Um. You know, you've learned 445 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: some things, you count the craters, you measure with the 446 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: servicement out of it. You know, it would it would 447 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: no matter what, it would be cool. But but in 448 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: the back of my mind it was like, well, you know, 449 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: what if it's just not the most exciting place and 450 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: it seems plausible because we have this sort of prejudice 451 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 1: against um cold places that are far from other things. 452 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: We expect them to be inactive, and that's you know, 453 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: in our textbooks, you know, we thought the moons of 454 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: Jupiter would be boring and inactive, and it turns out 455 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: there not because the gravitational pull of Jupiter makes them 456 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: pulse with activity. We didn't know that until we got there. 457 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: By the same token, a lot of people thought Pluto 458 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 1: would be boring and inactive. And the thing that's, if 459 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: I had to summarize, you know, and a very short 460 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: number of sentences, what's surprising and exciting about Pluto compared 461 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: to our expectations is that it's really active. It's geologically alive. 462 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: It's not old and dead and just covered with creators. 463 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 1: It pulses with activity, and that is something that nobody expected. 464 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: And when those first pictures came in UM, you know, 465 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: there was like, in addition to joy and elation and 466 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: just share amazement by the the team members, there was 467 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: also this puzzlement of what is going on there? Why 468 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: is this place so far from the sun. Also, you know, 469 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: it's not discovered in creators. There's clearly activity going on there, 470 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: and at first it was you know, it really was, 471 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: you know, a massive head scratching moment to figure out, okay, 472 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: what what's going on? And it it's just so varied 473 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: and um active and complex in a surprising and delightful 474 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: way that um, you know, I'm still kind of wrapping 475 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: my head around that. Well, would you mind telling us 476 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: a few like what are some of these most exciting 477 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: and like the strangest revelations about this object? Yeah? What 478 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: makes Pluto weird? So the first thing you notice, and 479 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of poetry in this, but it's true. 480 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: You know, as you're approaching Pluto, even days away, you 481 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: see this bright heart shaped see sure, the heart of Pluto, 482 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: which is just kind of lovely, but it's also that 483 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: turns out to be a very very intriguing and interesting formation. 484 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: It's this massive, um huge glacier of solid nitrogen um 485 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: called Sputnik Plnacia. A lot of the places on Pluto 486 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: have now been named after famous explorers or missions of exploration, 487 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: and so we've got Tombao Reggio. The heart itself is 488 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: named Tombow Reggio, really, which is the after Clyde Tombaou. 489 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: The discover of Pluto. And then the big um western 490 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 1: or left ventricle if you will, of the heart western 491 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: smooth area is the Sputnik Plintia, which is this massive 492 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: glacier of flowing solid nitrogen. And that was the big 493 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: you know. Okay, so you see this area. It's big, 494 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: it's bright, and there are absolutely no craters on it. 495 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: Zero And I remember John Spencer, who's you know, of 496 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: these old friends from grad school. I was mentioning, who's 497 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: been involved in this mission for a long long time. 498 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: Who's one of the uh, you know, very central. He's 499 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: in the book. He's one of the people that helped 500 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: UH plan the mission, and UM did a lot of 501 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: important work and a lot of the scientific analysis. I 502 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: remember him saying on the day of the encounter, if 503 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: you had told me that the first that I've ever 504 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: told me that I'd see the first high resolution image 505 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: of Pluto and it would have zero impact crators, no craters, 506 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: I would not have believed you. And that's because craters 507 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: are sort of our our chronometers. You know, when you 508 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: see a planetary surface full of creators, you know, it's 509 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,959 Speaker 1: an old surface that not much has happened to. It's 510 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: just been collecting creators over there keons. And when you 511 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: see a surface with no craters, then you say, Okay, 512 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: something's happening here. There's more recent activities, something filling in 513 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: the old holes and paving it over. And this was, 514 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: you know, a massive area UM with with no craters. 515 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: And it turns out UM that and we know this UM, 516 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: but we should have known it because there's no new 517 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: physics involved. It was just lack of imagination or you know, 518 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: this is why we explore, because you discover things and 519 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: you go, oh, I should have thought of that. But 520 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: but that that. It turns out that solid nitrogen at 521 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: Pluto temperatures is squishy enough so that you build up 522 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: enough of it that it does flow over geologic time 523 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: with a little bit of heat, and there's a little 524 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: bit of heat coming from the interior of Puto, so 525 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: UM basically that activity is convicting and flowing solid nitrogen, 526 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: which covers this massive area on Pluto. And then closer 527 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: and you look, you see like things that are you 528 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: realize there's glaciers of nitrogen flowing out of the steep 529 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: mountains on the edge of this thing, and the mountains 530 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: are made out of UM water ice because water ice 531 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: there has the properties of bedrock. You know, it's so cold. 532 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: But if you actually look at those mountains, they have 533 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: roughly the the height and shape of like the rocky 534 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: mountains on Earth. You know, they're like fourteen thousand foot 535 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: peaks of water ice with glaciers of solid nitrogen flowing 536 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: out of them onto these nitrogen plans. So it's you know, 537 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: it's a you can find forms that look familiar and 538 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: yet you look at what they're made out of and 539 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: they're just really exotic materials. Isn't there also some amazing 540 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: precipitation situation on Pluto. Yes, and again it's another one 541 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: of these things where it's something that looks familiar, but 542 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: it's weird stuff doing it. So on some of the 543 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: high mountains, they're they're snow capped, but it's not snow 544 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: the way we usually think of it. There are there's 545 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: methane snow on top of some of these, so you 546 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: have you know, it's it's the same things that you 547 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: have on on Earth you have rock mountains and water 548 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: ice glaciers and water ice snow. On Pluto you have uh, 549 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: water ice mountains with nitrogen glaciers and methane snow. All right, 550 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: So as long as we're talking about just the property 551 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: to Pluto. I originally wasn't going to ask about this 552 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: because I know you you get it a lot um 553 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: and but you also discuss it in the book. So 554 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: my second grade son is studying the planets in school 555 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: and he really wants you to weigh in on this. 556 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: Is Pluto a planet? So my one word answer is yes. 557 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: But what I would tell your son, because maybe he's 558 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: confused by hearing that because he might have heard in school, 559 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 1: but it's not. I would try to use it as 560 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: a teachable moment and say, well, here's why some scientists 561 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: think it's not, and here's why some scientists think it is. 562 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: Because you know, to my mind, what makes something a 563 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: planet or not um has to do with its intrinsic properties. 564 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: What's that object like, uh, you know, and and in 565 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: my view, anything that's large enough to be round by 566 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: its own gravity and have um the features that we 567 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: associate with planets at you know, surface activity in mountains 568 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: and atmosphere, which Pluto does, makes sense to call it 569 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: a planet. Um. The i AU definition, which became very 570 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: popular in which some people consider to be official although 571 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: though I don't UM, it's it's based more on not 572 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: the properties of that object, but what's around it, how 573 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: it's orbiting, and what's orbiting around it. And you know, 574 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: if you're the kind of astronomer that doesn't think so 575 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: much about what planets the properties of planets themselves, doesn't 576 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: worry about geology and meteorology, but is interested in um 577 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: looking through telescopes and identifying orbiting objects and thinking about 578 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: classifying your orbits in different ways, then I can see 579 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: how that sort of makes sense, UM, But but it 580 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 1: also least leads to some sort of absurdities. I mean, 581 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: the basic thing is they say that if a planet 582 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: dominates its zone and has cleared out other material, then 583 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: it's actually a planet, and if it hasn't, then it's 584 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: something else called a dwarf planet, which isn't really a planet. 585 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: Um is what is said. The problem is at least 586 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: to some silly in my view of silly things like 587 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: if you took Earth and moved it somewhere else where 588 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: there was a swarm of material, then it wouldn't be 589 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: a planet anymore, or even worse, even worse by that definition, 590 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: Earth itself was not a planet for its first five 591 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: million years of existence, when it was being pelted with 592 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: objects that you know, in its zone that had not 593 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: yet been cleared out. And then it became a planet 594 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: at some point, not because it changed, but because it's 595 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: environment changed. So UM, what you will find is that, UM, 596 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: there's a difference in the way planetary scientists speak about 597 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: this from astronomers in general. And I'm a planetary scientist. 598 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: I studied planets for living and me and really most 599 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: of my colleagues, I think we use the word planet 600 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: when we talk about Pluto. We even use the word 601 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: planet when we talk about, um, the larger planet like 602 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: moons like Io and Uh and Tighten because because again 603 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: they have the feet years that we are interested in 604 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: thinking about and comparing between worlds. So UM, I guess 605 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: you could tell your son going back to that, that's 606 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: some scientists. Um that a lot of the scientists who 607 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: study planets use the word planet when they talk about 608 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: Puto because it has these things. And then and then 609 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: tell them about Puda instead of worrying about the the 610 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: definition say, because it has mountains, and it has an atmosphere, 611 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: and it's big and round because of gravity, and you know, 612 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: hopefully when you talk to kids, you steer the conversation 613 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: into something more interesting than scientists arguing about nomenclature and 614 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 1: actually talk about what's cool about Puda. You know, absolutely 615 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: now speaking of nomenclature, uh, you also at one point 616 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: in the book you talk about the you know, the 617 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: naming of the planet and some of the you list 618 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: some of the potential names that were thrown out there 619 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: at one point. So, you know, if we're considering alternative history, 620 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: there's also an alternative timeline where we're not talking about 621 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: the exploration of Pluto. We're talking about the exploration of Tomboy, 622 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,439 Speaker 1: which was one of my favorites from that list you share, Yeah, 623 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: now that was I mean, so the discovery of Pludho 624 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: in itself is a really just cool story which we 625 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: try to encapsulate in the book because Kai Tombo himself 626 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 1: was a really interesting character and it was sort of 627 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: again another kind of against all odds, perseverance wins the 628 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: day kind of story which is echoed, uh, you know, 629 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: seventy years or eighty years later in the story of 630 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: the success of of New Horizons. But when um the 631 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: planet was discovered at Little Observatory UM, then um, you know. 632 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: They of course, they made sure not to tell anybody 633 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: until they were absolutely they checked their work and we 634 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 1: were absolutely certain they had found something. They didn't want 635 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: to be accused of a false alarm. And but then 636 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 1: once they were sure, they announced it to the world 637 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: and it was in all the newspapers and everything, and 638 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 1: then ideas came flooding in telegrams from from all over 639 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: the world, um uh suggesting and letters suggesting names, um, 640 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: and some of them are pretty funny. I mean, well, 641 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: first of all, there was some there was some politics involved, 642 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: like personal Glowal's who was the guy that you know, 643 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: found rich Bostonian astronomer who founded the Lobo Observatory where 644 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: it was um, the search was successfully executed, and who 645 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: actually um really he started the search but didn't live 646 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: to see it through. His widow wanted to call it 647 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: um percy in honor in honor of first Beloal, you know. 648 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: And there were some some politics that had to be 649 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: offended off. And then there were some very very silly 650 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: um suggestions that you mentioned Tomboy, yeah, because somebody was like, 651 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: well that sounds like Tombo, and uh, there's they've got 652 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: a great collection of these, uh, at Low Observatory of 653 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: the letters suggesting different names for Pluto, but the the 654 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: actual name UM I love. This came from a um Um, 655 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: a ten year old English schoolgirl named Venetia Bernie who 656 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: heard about the discovery of Pluto, and Um mentioned that 657 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: Um at the dinner table to her parents, who knew 658 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: an astronomer. Um that she had been doing some reading 659 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: and mythology and she she suggested Pluto because of its 660 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: underworld associations and it's you know, all the you know, 661 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: the mythological associations and and this was sent by Um 662 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: by by telegram UM and and they loved it at 663 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: Little Observatory. And there's part of the reason is because 664 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: the first two letters P l um is also honors 665 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: personal loal And in fact, the symbol for Pluto, you know, 666 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: all the all the planets have kind of a symbol 667 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: that comes out of you know, mythology, mostly um. Like 668 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: the Mars symbol is you know the male um the 669 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: circle would arrow coming out of it, and the Venus 670 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: ones the circle with the cross coming out of it, etcetera. 671 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: And the symbol that was adopted for Pluto has a 672 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: P and an L which stands for Pluto but also 673 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: stands for personal loal. So that way they were able 674 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: to honor the you know, founder of Deservatory without doing 675 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: something so crass is to name it after him. Yeah, 676 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: that's awesome. I love the history that you share there 677 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, because because you go through the history 678 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: of thinking about Pluto, you know, and discovering Pluto and 679 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: then leading up to this exploration. But of course at 680 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: the very start of the book, you you really, you 681 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: really to drive home just how delicate these missions are 682 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: and how high the stakes are. You open with what 683 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: could have been an extremely tragic moment for the spacecraft. Yeah, 684 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: you know, we wanted to um structure it a little 685 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: bit like a thriller because the people and for the 686 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: people that lived through it, um, it was like a thriller, 687 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: and that you know, there were long stretches where not 688 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: that much was happened, and then all of a sudden, 689 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, like the red lights are all flashing and 690 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: it's like, oh my god, does that's blooming and and 691 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: out of the many sort of near death experiences of 692 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: this mission, UM experience, perhaps the most dramatic was the 693 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: one with which we opened the book, because um, this 694 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: happened on approach to Puto when they were ten days out. 695 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: All of a sudden they lost contact completely with a spacecraft. 696 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: And that's something that should never happen, of course, And 697 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: if it happens when you're a year out for six 698 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: months out, then you have some time to work the 699 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: problem and try to get back in touch, and hopefully 700 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: you do. But when it happens when you're that close, 701 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: it's really a panic because you don't have much time. 702 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: Not only do you have that initial fear of what 703 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: if we never hear from but again, uh, you know, 704 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: things do go wrong in spacecraft, and there have been 705 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: spacecraft that have been you know, there was one of 706 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: the Mars spacecraft UM was made all the way up 707 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: basically to the doorstep of Mars and then something went wrong. 708 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: It probably blew up and it was just never heard 709 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: from again. So those things happen. So that's the initial fear, 710 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: and then once they heard from New Horizons it was 711 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: a big relief. But what they heard from it was 712 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: basically helped, Um, something's gone wrong. I'm not I'm in 713 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: a bad condition. What should I do? Um? Which is 714 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: good that the spacecraft he knows to say that and again, 715 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: if it's six months out, then you have plenty of 716 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: time to work the problem. But this was an emergency 717 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: because it was literally days away from when they were 718 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: going to start the final sequence of observations that that 719 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: week long period surrounding the closest encounter, everything's automated, and 720 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 1: it was about to begin that automated sequence, and the 721 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 1: spacecraft is barreling down on Pluto million miles a day, 722 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: getting closer, and it's gonna fly by no matter what, 723 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: whether it's working or not, and you don't have a 724 00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: lot of time. And to make matters worse, at that point, 725 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: you're so far from Earth with the spacecraft that it 726 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: takes nine hours to send a signal to the spacecraft 727 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: and get an answer back, So just saying hey, are 728 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: you okay, and then the spacecraft saying yeah, well I'm here, 729 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: but uh, you know, my main computer rebooted and I've 730 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 1: lost all the commands for the final observing sequence, which 731 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: is what it said, And just that bit of communication 732 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: takes nine hours, and when you've only got a few 733 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: days start executing this sequence, that's really bad. And then 734 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: you know, so of course they have this emergency meeting 735 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: and they figure try to assess the situation. By the way, 736 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: this also happened on the fourth of July, so and 737 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: the team had been given the day off to prepare 738 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: for the intensity of the encounter to come. So the 739 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 1: phone tree gets activated. People start coming in and there, 740 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: you know, flip flops and bathing suits from their barbecues 741 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: and UM and like that in their flip flops and 742 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: bathing suits. People stayed there for like three days, and 743 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, they're sleeping under desks and needing out of 744 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: vending machines and all that like Apoblo thirteen, you know, 745 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: And and they basically figure out they have three of 746 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: these nine hour communication UM turnaround times, three of these 747 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: to work with, so they're gonna have to fix the 748 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,919 Speaker 1: thing with three batches of commands. That's all the time 749 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: they have. And they just get to work and it's 750 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: there's there's real heroism in this story, and UM, you know, 751 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: we get to UM tell the story of UM some 752 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: of these these characters you know who UM been working 753 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: out of the limelight for UM, you know, for decades 754 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: on this and suddenly have their moment of just like 755 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: total heroism, you know, UM, And that's that's great. To 756 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: be able to share that with people. Um, and this 757 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 1: team just kicks into kicks into action, and they have 758 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: to rewrite all the software and tested it and figure 759 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: out ways to send it up and what to tell 760 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: the spacecraft and um, you know, nobody sleeps for like 761 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: multiple days and um just at the last minute, literally 762 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: with hours to spare, they get everything reloaded on the 763 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: spacecraft and it's um it ends up executing flawlessly. Um. 764 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: But this was you know, this was the moment of 765 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: crisis that came after everything else and was like sort 766 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: of the last crazy hurdle to be crossed before before 767 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: reaching Pluto. Wow, it's an amazing story. It Uh it 768 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: makes you wonder what caused the malfunction to begin with, 769 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: to get some trans Neptunian malware. Actually they figured that out, 770 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: oh really, yeah, you know, and it was a little 771 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,760 Speaker 1: bit of an oversight, which is in itself an amazing 772 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,919 Speaker 1: part of the story because one thing you read about 773 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,879 Speaker 1: is how carefully they tested everything and simulated everything and 774 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: accounted for every contingency and tested and retested and simulated 775 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,879 Speaker 1: and resimulated. But there was one thing they did, um 776 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: slightly wrong, and that us So what happened was the 777 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: main computer got overloaded because at the same time as 778 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: they were loading up the final command sequences, they were 779 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: compressing some other image files that it had previously taken 780 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: to make more room in the memory, and they was 781 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: overloaded by doing all that. And you might ask, well, 782 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: why didn't they simulate that the compression uh and the 783 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: loading of the commands at the same time. And the 784 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: answer is they had simulated that. But but the images 785 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: that they had been using to compress in the simulation 786 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: were like fake images of planets. They were like empty, 787 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 1: you know, empty circles to say, here's the planet image 788 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: you're going to compress, you know, while you do this, 789 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: And it turned out that compared to the real images 790 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: that it had to compress, they were um it was 791 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: it was more labor intensive for the for the computer 792 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: to compress these real images and the fake images they 793 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: had gotten given. And so that was the oversight that 794 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,439 Speaker 1: caused the computer to get overloaded and trash and cause 795 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: this whole thing to happen. So the problem was literally 796 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: that Pluto was too interesting kind yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, 797 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,280 Speaker 1: but it also just illustrates that, you know, no matter 798 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: how careful you are, and these guys. I mean, what's 799 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: amazing is how careful they were because you only get 800 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: one chance, and unlike earlier missions, there was only one 801 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,760 Speaker 1: New Horizons. I mean, you think of all the classic 802 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: missions of export planetary exploration. There's Voyager, Viking, all these ones, 803 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: these pioneer first missions to places. They did too in 804 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: case one of them failed, and sometimes one of them 805 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: did fail. But in this case, budget wise and for 806 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: other reasons, there was only one small spacecraft, and so 807 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: it had to be perfect. So they tested and retested 808 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,839 Speaker 1: and had backup systems. But even given all that, there's 809 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: just no way you can anticipate everything. And that's why 810 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: you need like an amazing team like they had that 811 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: can kick into action and solve problems when they come up. 812 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna jump in here and take a 813 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:02,839 Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back. Thank and we're 814 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: back now. Of course, the journey doesn't end with the 815 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: with Pluto. Can you tell us a little bit about 816 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,239 Speaker 1: Errow cough and the further adventures of New Horizons. Um, 817 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: that's right. Pluto was you know, maybe the highlight, but 818 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,399 Speaker 1: certainly not not the end of the mission. And one 819 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 1: thing that was kind of innovative actually about New Horizons. 820 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: Very innovative was that all along the plan was not 821 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 1: just to go to Pluto, but to go to Pluto 822 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: and at least one and maybe more Coper Belt objects, 823 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: and and the mission was sold on that basis as 824 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: a mission to Pluto and the Coper Belt. But one 825 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 1: kind of crazy aspect of that is that at the 826 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,680 Speaker 1: time of launch of New Horizons they did not know 827 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 1: of another Copper Belt object that New Horizons could meet, 828 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: that could could could intersect after Pluto with the amount 829 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 1: of fuel and on the trajectory that it was on. 830 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: But they had very good statistical arguments as why there 831 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: should be such an object and why they should with 832 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: no problem be able to discover it before New Horizons 833 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: got to Pluto and redirect the trajectory because they knew that, 834 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, there were enough objects. They knew that they 835 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,239 Speaker 1: just they if you do the math, it shouldn't be 836 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: hard to find another place for the Horizons to go 837 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: to after Pluto, and you're gonna find that object during 838 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: the nine year journey to Pluto. So that logic was 839 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,879 Speaker 1: in the proposal and it was pretty good. But then 840 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: what happened was as New Horizons was approaching Pludo. Over 841 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: all the years it does the Jupiter fly by, it 842 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 1: redirects its trajectory. It's heading out towards Pluto. And they're 843 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: searching and searching with all the best ground based telescopes 844 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: on Mona Kea and all these big telescopes UM and 845 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: they're not finding the right object. They're not finding an 846 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 1: object that New Horizons can get to. And then it 847 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: got to the point where it was going to be 848 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: too late and they weren't going to be able to 849 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,799 Speaker 1: UM execute that part of the mission. And the sort 850 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,160 Speaker 1: of the last minute, they called in the Hubble space 851 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 1: telescope and there were some drama there because Hubble, of 852 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,799 Speaker 1: course is very scheduled up for other observations and they 853 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,919 Speaker 1: had to kind of go to NASA Brass and say, look, 854 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,880 Speaker 1: this is really important if you want New Horizons to succeed, 855 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,319 Speaker 1: we need to sort of command here a little bit 856 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 1: of time on the Hubble for the search to find 857 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 1: an object. And there was some some drama and some 858 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 1: you know, conflict and then but ultimately they were able 859 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: to do it, and literally, you know, it's another one 860 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 1: of these sort of just a nick of time. Uh, 861 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 1: they found an object that New Horizons could visit, which 862 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: was you know MU sixty nine originally and then was 863 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 1: given a more appropriate name. But um, but so just 864 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 1: the finding of it was very dramatic. And then um, 865 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,960 Speaker 1: but but they did and then um, you know they 866 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: did they made the right trajectory corrections so that after 867 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: after the Pluto encounter, New Horizons was on its way. Um, 868 00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,759 Speaker 1: but had to go another billion miles and traveled all 869 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 1: the way from July when they were at Pluto to 870 00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:01,800 Speaker 1: New Year's Eve. Um, you know, so another two and 871 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:07,720 Speaker 1: a half years. Um, and um, finally um, this encounter 872 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,400 Speaker 1: happened and uh and boy was it amazing Again another 873 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: surprising object that uh, you know, you've probably seen the pictures. 874 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: It looks sort of like a snowman. But just the 875 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,840 Speaker 1: fact that it's this some kind of a contact binary, 876 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:26,400 Speaker 1: these two objects sort of squished together, really reveal something 877 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,399 Speaker 1: about the formation of planets and the history of these 878 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,359 Speaker 1: objects in the Cooper Belt. And again, you know, they're 879 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,760 Speaker 1: just the targeting that went into it's incredible how difficult 880 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,240 Speaker 1: it is. It's even harder than the targeting for Pluto. 881 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,359 Speaker 1: Because this object is small, you're not completely sure where 882 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: it is you're not completely sure where where the spacecraft is. 883 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: You've got one shot to image it, you're moving very fast, 884 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,720 Speaker 1: and you have to pre program the images in advance. 885 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,200 Speaker 1: And just the fact that you know, when they get 886 00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: that frame down there's actually an object in focus in 887 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: the image rather than looking at empty space because you 888 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 1: targeted a little bit wrong. That's that's like people take that. 889 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,040 Speaker 1: It's easy to take that for granted because it works 890 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,719 Speaker 1: so well, but that's you know, that's a real incredible achievement. 891 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 1: It is amazing. Um. So, one thing I was wondering, 892 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,799 Speaker 1: if you don't mind kind of a tangent while we're 893 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: out here in the realm of transneptunity and objects. I 894 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: was wondering, do you have a professional opinion about something 895 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,760 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show a while back, the 896 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,879 Speaker 1: the evidence seeming to indicate the existence of a far off, 897 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,560 Speaker 1: larger planet out there that well, I don't know if 898 00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 1: you'd use this terminology because of how you feel about 899 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: naming Pluto, but what's being called planet nine? Yeah, I 900 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,920 Speaker 1: prefer planet X. But um, my professional and my personal 901 00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,279 Speaker 1: opinion is, um, I hope they find it because it 902 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,879 Speaker 1: would be so cool to learn about another large um 903 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,440 Speaker 1: uh planet in our in our Solar system, and UM, 904 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: I think I'm skeptical just because the history of this 905 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: kind of prediction is UM, you know, sort of littered 906 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 1: with UM, you know, with things that weren't found where 907 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 1: people said, I haven't actually found it, but I've found 908 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: reason to believe it's there because of the statistical aberration 909 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,880 Speaker 1: in UM, the in other orbits UM. There's been a 910 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:22,080 Speaker 1: lot of sort of false alarms along those lines. UM. 911 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,000 Speaker 1: But you know, whether or not we agree on what 912 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:31,200 Speaker 1: numbers should be assigned to this punitive planet, I'm with 913 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,400 Speaker 1: them completely in the hope that they do find it, 914 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: because it would be a wonderful discovery. Yeah, I'm very 915 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: intrigued by the idea. Uh So we uh we we 916 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,160 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that we might give you some room to 917 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 1: talk about your passion planet, about Venus here at the 918 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:49,440 Speaker 1: end if you wanted to do do you have anything 919 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: to say about Venus? Like what what? What do you 920 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: have your eye on there right now? Well, I'm very 921 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,960 Speaker 1: much hoping that we do get a mission to Venus 922 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,879 Speaker 1: in the next round of NASSASA elections, because there were 923 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: really overdue and UM, there's too much mystery about about 924 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,560 Speaker 1: that world, considering that it's you know, the closest planet 925 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,839 Speaker 1: to us and in some ways the most earthlike other 926 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 1: planet UM. And in particular, now we have more and 927 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,480 Speaker 1: more reason to think that Venus might have gone through 928 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: a long phase when it was a habitable world. We 929 00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,560 Speaker 1: used to have this in this picture that Venus maybe 930 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,320 Speaker 1: had oceans early on but lost them very quickly on 931 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,480 Speaker 1: the runaway greenhouse. But the more we do detailed modeling 932 00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:36,200 Speaker 1: of how an early Venus would transition to a planet 933 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,840 Speaker 1: without to a very hot and dry planet that we 934 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,480 Speaker 1: see today, the more we suspect that that took billions 935 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,920 Speaker 1: of years. And so it may be that Venus was 936 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:50,040 Speaker 1: an oceanic planet like Earth for billions of years UM, 937 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,880 Speaker 1: which is very intriguing. This picture of these two um 938 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,480 Speaker 1: very similar, very very nearby worlds, both of which could 939 00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,520 Speaker 1: have been habitable for you know, half the or half 940 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,319 Speaker 1: the history of the Solar system UM. And so there 941 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,359 Speaker 1: are a lot there are a lot of mysteries that 942 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 1: are very compelling as far as understanding how earth like 943 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:15,960 Speaker 1: worlds evolve, how climate evolves, UM and UM. It's uh, 944 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,440 Speaker 1: it's sitting right there waiting for us to explore. I mean, 945 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,520 Speaker 1: of course, Venus is a hard place to explore because 946 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,600 Speaker 1: the surface conditions now are so intense, and because it's 947 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,399 Speaker 1: completely shrouded in clouds. You can't observe the surface from 948 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,640 Speaker 1: orbit except in the radar. You can't get to the 949 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:35,080 Speaker 1: surface very easily without a really incredibly engineered machine. So 950 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,520 Speaker 1: it's not you know, it makes sense that we've explored 951 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,560 Speaker 1: other places first, because Venus is not low hanging fruit 952 00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 1: as far as easy places to explore, but it's such 953 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,920 Speaker 1: a compelling place as far as the mysteries there that 954 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,640 Speaker 1: I do think that before long, either NASA or the 955 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,920 Speaker 1: European Space Agency or UM, maybe even the Russians. I mean, 956 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: there are not there are a number of agencies considering 957 00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:02,840 Speaker 1: ambitious new missions to uh of Venus and UM. I'm excited, 958 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:04,799 Speaker 1: and I hope I'm I hope I'm still around when 959 00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,640 Speaker 1: we really get to UM to answer some of these mysteries. 960 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,799 Speaker 1: For some reason, I've often thought or thought for a 961 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,200 Speaker 1: long time one of the most haunting sets of images 962 00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,680 Speaker 1: from the whole Solar System is just those little tiny 963 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,440 Speaker 1: slivers we get of the surface of Venus from the 964 00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,680 Speaker 1: Soviet Venera landers. I there's not a lot in them, 965 00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: but every time I see them, I kind of get 966 00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,479 Speaker 1: a shiver. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean there's something 967 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,160 Speaker 1: very kind of dreamlike about them, UM, because they look 968 00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:33,800 Speaker 1: so real and so sort of familiar in some ways. 969 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,760 Speaker 1: I mean, here's a rocky world that's right next door. 970 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,120 Speaker 1: And yet because they're you know, maybe enhanced by the 971 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,800 Speaker 1: fact that the geometry of these images are so distorted 972 00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,480 Speaker 1: and we uh, just by the nature of the cameras 973 00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,239 Speaker 1: that got them, and we only have a few. It's 974 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,360 Speaker 1: just it's like this glimpse of a world that we 975 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,880 Speaker 1: can't really bring into focus. UM and UM it really 976 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: makes you want to see more clearly what's you know, 977 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: what's what's over that hill, and what's you know, what's 978 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,200 Speaker 1: what's really going on here? And so UM, you know, 979 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,640 Speaker 1: next generation of spacecraft that could measure the minerals on 980 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:10,960 Speaker 1: the surface, UM, measure that, uh, the composition of the 981 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 1: atmosphere in a way that we haven't really done yet. UM, 982 00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,160 Speaker 1: measure what's going on in the clouds where there's a 983 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,160 Speaker 1: lot of mystery and even some people think there could 984 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,640 Speaker 1: be um, some kind of life in the clouds, I 985 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:24,760 Speaker 1: believe it or not. UM, but then but then also, 986 00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: like you say, you know, what's what's going on with 987 00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,839 Speaker 1: those surface images? Really images the surface well and just 988 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,960 Speaker 1: give us more of a visual, uh and physical sense 989 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,799 Speaker 1: of what that place is like. Um, you know, I'm 990 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,560 Speaker 1: I'm very excited for that possibility. We'll tell us what 991 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: we can do to help get us back to Venus. 992 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:48,880 Speaker 1: Fun NASA with letters now. Honestly, UM, you know, it 993 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:53,960 Speaker 1: never hurts to talk to your elected representatives, but um, 994 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,200 Speaker 1: you know, honestly, I think just you know, when you 995 00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:00,880 Speaker 1: have an appropriate chance expressing enthusiasm for the space program 996 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,160 Speaker 1: and planetary planetary exploration, uh in general, is is a 997 00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,879 Speaker 1: good thing. And um, I don't you know, I I 998 00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,440 Speaker 1: feel like it's I feel like there is momentum to 999 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: uh do uh new missions to Venus, like it is 1000 00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 1: going to happen in the next time scale of the 1001 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:21,239 Speaker 1: next next decade. So I'm I'm maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, 1002 00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,600 Speaker 1: but I am optimistic about it. All right. Well, the 1003 00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,240 Speaker 1: book is Chasing New Horizons Inside the epic First Mission 1004 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,120 Speaker 1: to Pluto by Alan Stern and David Grinspoon. It's available 1005 00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,239 Speaker 1: now and I think all formats correct. Yes, that's right. 1006 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,920 Speaker 1: It's even it just got uh just got published in Russian. 1007 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 1: If you're listening to this program and you don't speak English, 1008 00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,359 Speaker 1: all right, so, uh so that book is is out. 1009 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,879 Speaker 1: In the past, you've written on on Venus and you've 1010 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,360 Speaker 1: written on Earth. Uh so where are you headed next? 1011 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,920 Speaker 1: And how can listeners keep up with your work? Well, Um, 1012 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,600 Speaker 1: I I have a website, um, Funky science dot net. 1013 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,240 Speaker 1: And um that's so I sometimes remember to keep it current. 1014 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:07,520 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter as a dr Funky spoon um and 1015 00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,520 Speaker 1: um yeah, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be. I've got 1016 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,200 Speaker 1: all kinds of things going. I'm gonna be teaching a 1017 00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,840 Speaker 1: class at Georgetown this spring on how to predict the future, 1018 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,080 Speaker 1: which maybe that'll turn into a book, I hope. So 1019 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 1: and uh you know, just catch me if you can. 1020 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:26,280 Speaker 1: All right, Well, once again, thanks for taking time out 1021 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,480 Speaker 1: of your day to chat with us. Um. You know, 1022 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,960 Speaker 1: the book is fabulous and we we we strongly recommend 1023 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:33,960 Speaker 1: it to all our listeners. Well, thanks to God, it's 1024 00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:35,680 Speaker 1: been great having the opportunity to talk to you guys. 1025 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,520 Speaker 1: Thanks David, thank you. All right, So there you have 1026 00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,280 Speaker 1: it again. The title of the book is Chasing New 1027 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,200 Speaker 1: Horizons Inside the epic First Mission to Pluto by Alan 1028 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,760 Speaker 1: Stern and David grin Spoon. It's out in just about 1029 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,640 Speaker 1: any format you could possibly want a book, And then again, 1030 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,680 Speaker 1: I just have to drive home just how entertaining this 1031 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,600 Speaker 1: book is. You might not think you want a book 1032 00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,880 Speaker 1: about machines and planets and distant planets, but it is. 1033 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: It is really exciting. In the meantime, if you want 1034 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,360 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 1035 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,040 Speaker 1: head on over Stuff to Blow your Mind dot Com. 1036 00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,560 Speaker 1: That'll set you on the right path. But you can 1037 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,800 Speaker 1: find this podcast anywhere you get your podcasts these days, 1038 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,800 Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. Make sure that you subscribe 1039 00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:20,959 Speaker 1: and make sure that you rate interview because this really 1040 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,640 Speaker 1: helps us out. Huge thanks of course to Dr David 1041 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,520 Speaker 1: Grinspoon for joining us, but huge thanks as always to 1042 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,680 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would 1043 00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:32,480 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 1044 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,920 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 1045 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,200 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 1046 00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:48,000 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1047 00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radios. 1048 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,680 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio 1049 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,360 Speaker 1: is at the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 1050 00:58:55,400 --> 00:59:08,600 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. The point to four 1051 00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,600 Speaker 1: four four Foo