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Speaker 1: Just off the cuff here. Uh, guys, I remember watching

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Speaker 1: Ghostbusters as a kid, which is the first way I

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Speaker 1: actually learned about the e p A. Because the e

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Speaker 1: p A aren't they like the bad guys in the

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Speaker 1: first Ghostbusters? Is that the man that has no penis? Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's a represents. He's described as such, yes bye by

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Speaker 1: Dr Vankman himself, not my cat, the character portrayed by

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Speaker 1: Bill Murray, and yet he Uh. The e p A,

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Speaker 1: the Environmental Protection Agency, is a storied institution nowadays, but

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Speaker 1: also it's sometimes a lightning rod for controversy. It's a

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Speaker 1: great idea and concept, the governmental organization that protects theoretically

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Speaker 1: humans from let's say, companies doing harm to the environment

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Speaker 1: and therefore to us and other animals and you know,

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Speaker 1: creatures and plants and everything that's living in and in

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Speaker 1: environment because we all live in one. Um, I almost

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Speaker 1: tell it the environment. And yeah, the problem is in

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Speaker 1: execution and corruption. So we're gonna find out this episode. Ben,

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Speaker 1: do you remember when we shot the video with you

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Speaker 1: standing in front of the e p A building and

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Speaker 1: d C. I do, I do, And I miss those

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Speaker 1: days which which may return soon, But that that was

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Speaker 1: one of the ones where we kind of cooked up

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Speaker 1: like a real half asked cover story for if someone

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Speaker 1: asked what we were doing, right uh yeah, oh man,

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Speaker 1: and in that video holds up I think, oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Check it on YouTube right now as you're listening. If

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Speaker 1: you want, you could just pause or watch the video

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Speaker 1: silently while you listen to the episode. It's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: From UFOs two Ghosts and government cover ups. History is

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Speaker 1: really with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Planet

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Speaker 1: unique amongst all the heavenly bodies, man has found with

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Speaker 1: a circumference of twenty four thousand, nine hundred miles, animals, insects,

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Speaker 1: and of course human being almost seven point four billion

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Speaker 1: of them as we record this podcast, with the projected

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Speaker 1: ten billion people on the planet in twenty fifty six.

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Speaker 1: But wait, there's more. The Earth faces peril. Just this

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Speaker 1: past year, four million, five hundred and sixty six thousand,

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Speaker 1: seven hundred and twenty six hectares of forests were lost.

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Speaker 1: To put that into perspective, since over one hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty nine million hectares of forest the equivalent area of

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Speaker 1: South Africa have been lost. Also, desertification. Soil is being

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Speaker 1: destroyed at an alarming rate, over ten and a half

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Speaker 1: million hectares this year. And that's not all. The air

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Speaker 1: is being polluted. Thirty two billion, sixty seven million tons

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Speaker 1: and counting of c O two emissions are released each year,

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Speaker 1: not even to mention the methane and other gases. But

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Speaker 1: all is not lost in this epic battle of destruction

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Speaker 1: and creation. In the darkness has emerged a shining white

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Speaker 1: light of hope. That is the e p A, the

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Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency is here. Yes, welcome to the show,

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Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen. We did it a little bit differently today,

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Speaker 1: but we hope you enjoyed it. I'm Ben, I'm Matt,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully you are you and in the right place

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Speaker 1: which makes this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: This week we did a video on the e p A. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's it's one that we shot while we were in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. This year. And uh, the e p A

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Speaker 1: is Environmental Protection Agency, kind of like a lot of

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Speaker 1: other countries have. It's also uh, well, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: let's just say what it's supposed to do. Oh sure.

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Speaker 1: So the PA was actually established on December second of

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, consolidate into a single agency a variety

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Speaker 1: of federal research, monitoring, standard setting, UH, and enforcement activities

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Speaker 1: to ensure the protection of our environment. Now the mission

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Speaker 1: of the e p A. There are many of them. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They are wide ranging, and it goes from everything to

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Speaker 1: UH to ensure that Americans are protected from threats to health,

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Speaker 1: right and that's where they work, where they live, and

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Speaker 1: where they learn. On what else, let's see also to

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Speaker 1: hold companies or even other governmental bodies responsible for pollution

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Speaker 1: or contamination, keeping people up to the standards that are

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Speaker 1: issued in their policies, right exactly, In other words, holding

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Speaker 1: corporations accountable for their pollution, right. Perfect, Please stop putting

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Speaker 1: all of this, Uh, let's what's what's all these all

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Speaker 1: these ben zene derivatives into the rivers, right, or lead,

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Speaker 1: let's say, lead from an old gold mine perhaps, Yes,

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Speaker 1: it runs the gamut for sure. And so these efforts,

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Speaker 1: these national efforts to reduce environmental risk, let's call it,

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Speaker 1: are you know, ultimately based on the best scientific data

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Speaker 1: that's available, and federal laws that protect human health and

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Speaker 1: the environment are enforced, you know, hopefully fairly and effectively

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Speaker 1: in theory in theory. Indeed, if you go to e

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Speaker 1: p A dot gov, you can find their entire mission statement,

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Speaker 1: all that the things that they are supposed to do,

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Speaker 1: at least officially. UM Milevan and I were just going

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Speaker 1: over the mission statement and uh they so they developed.

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Speaker 1: The e p A actually develops regulations and enforces them

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Speaker 1: as well. So if you think about Congress goes and

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Speaker 1: writes an environmental law, or let's say maybe a lobby

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Speaker 1: or a company writes writes a law, and then Congress

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Speaker 1: rewrites it and signs it. Maybe maybe that happens the

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Speaker 1: rewrite it. Yeah, maybe they rewrite it. The e PA

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Speaker 1: will then write the regulation to go along with whatever

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Speaker 1: Congress says needs to happen. Oh, and they will also

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Speaker 1: set national standards and enforce those regulations that they put

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Speaker 1: forth in theory in theory, and something Noll that I

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Speaker 1: found out is that one of the big parts of

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Speaker 1: the money that goes to the e p A is

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Speaker 1: actually spent on giving out grants. Right, so nearly half

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Speaker 1: of the ep A budget actually goes into grants to

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Speaker 1: state environmental program ms, nonprofits, educational institutions and the like.

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Speaker 1: UM and these grants are intended to fund environmental studies

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Speaker 1: UM conduct research at labs across the US, and to

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Speaker 1: share these findings with private organizations, academic institutions, other agencies,

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Speaker 1: and other countries. So, as you've heard, we've been peppering

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Speaker 1: this conversation thus far with the the caveats of in theory.

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Speaker 1: In a perfect world, this is what's supposed to happen. So,

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Speaker 1: Ben Matt, how does the e p A ultimately stack

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Speaker 1: up to their mission? Well, see, that's the thing, Um,

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Speaker 1: that's and and when it's so polite that you say

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Speaker 1: we've been peppering with we've been peppering the show with

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Speaker 1: in theory because for the past couple points we're making,

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Speaker 1: I was just sitting back when my arms crossed, leaning

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Speaker 1: in and saying in theory, because it's true, the e

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Speaker 1: p A does not always reach the goals it sets right.

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Speaker 1: It's maybe, you know, there's a fair amount of defense

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Speaker 1: we could say about that. What's it all? Is it?

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Speaker 1: Robert Browning? Uh Man's reach must exceed his grasp Else,

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Speaker 1: what's a heaven for? It's a very nice way to say,

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Speaker 1: it's a very nice way to look at ambition. But uh,

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Speaker 1: the the thing is that the e PA gets numerous criticism. Uh,

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Speaker 1: not just from people who think it's too big government

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Speaker 1: and too regulatory, not just from people who think that

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Speaker 1: it's um to two in the hands or in the

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Speaker 1: pockets rather of corporate America, and even people who would

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Speaker 1: say that the e p A is part of a

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Speaker 1: lot of government agencies that do too much hand holding

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Speaker 1: and prevent private industry from creating the wealth that it

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Speaker 1: should be right. And add to that another group of critics,

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Speaker 1: people who are formally employed at the e p A

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Speaker 1: who have a lot of stuff to say about it,

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Speaker 1: just like Joseph Stiglets, you know, going from working the

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Speaker 1: World Bank to being one of its largest detractors. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because when you're inside, you know, the belly of the beast,

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Speaker 1: it's the most stinky inside. Right, Yes, not a biologist,

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Speaker 1: but I would be. What do you think? It always

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Speaker 1: reminds me of that scene Inn where he has to

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Speaker 1: get inside the kangaroo monster. Yes it is in Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: Punch me for not knowing that, but not really. She

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Speaker 1: wouldn't really punch me. She doesn't punch, but she would

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Speaker 1: punch me with her eyes. You're referring to Holly Fry

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Speaker 1: District Lass. She is an avid Star Wars aficionado, let's say.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they always talk about how, oh it's smell

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Speaker 1: so gross, what if it's not a tonton? And I

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Speaker 1: just that's just a word that I know it is. Okay,

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Speaker 1: We've literally had this conversation before and I questioned what

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Speaker 1: a tonton was, and she said, you know, the one

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Speaker 1: that smells worse on the inside than was on the outside.

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Speaker 1: Oh nice, that's my favorite reference here. So that's the

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Speaker 1: that's where you're coming from with the belly of the beast.

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Speaker 1: The belly of the e p A beast um really

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Speaker 1: come the light in some criticism Spike guy named William

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Speaker 1: Sandjoor for about twenty years. Sandrew worked for the It

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Speaker 1: was thirty so for decades he worked at the e

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Speaker 1: p A. And he did not come out a happy camper.

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Speaker 1: He says, the entire place is corrupt. Yeah, and he wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Just somebody who I don't know works in a small

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Speaker 1: office as part of the e p A or a

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Speaker 1: small lab operated by the e p A. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: he started as a consultant, but then he ended up

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Speaker 1: as a branch chief in the Hazardous Waste Management Division,

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Speaker 1: So he knows his stuff. He's been in charge of

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Speaker 1: some things there. He's been in the belly of the Tonton.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Did I steal your line? And it does

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Speaker 1: go fairly far back. I think he's been employed during

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Speaker 1: three presidencies where for three different White Houses while he

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Speaker 1: was working there. Um, he's got this really great gosh,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of long. Um, well, when do you split

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Speaker 1: it up with me? Just because I think it it's

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Speaker 1: it really encassolates the criticism that he's making. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: an insider perspective, so I mean it's certainly to be

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Speaker 1: taken relatively seriously. So this is from What's Wrong with

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Speaker 1: the e p A by William Sanjeur, written in absolutely quote.

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Speaker 1: To understand why the e p A is the way

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Speaker 1: that it is, you have to start at the top.

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Speaker 1: And since the e p A is part of the

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Speaker 1: executive branch, that means the White House. The president, any president,

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Speaker 1: Republican or Democrat, and his immediate staff have an agenda

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Speaker 1: of about half a dozen issues with which they are

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Speaker 1: most concerned. These are usually national security, foreign affairs, the

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Speaker 1: economy of the budget, and maybe one or two others

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Speaker 1: call them Class A priorities. All others, housing, education, transportation,

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Speaker 1: the environment are class The president expects performance in Class A.

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Speaker 1: He will expect the military to to be able to

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Speaker 1: deploy forces anywhere in the world when an emergency arises,

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Speaker 1: and if it isn't, he'll bang heads until it is.

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Speaker 1: If Congress doesn't support his budget, he'll bring the budget

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Speaker 1: director into his office and slam his fist on the table.

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Speaker 1: But can you picture the President bringing in the Secretary

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Speaker 1: of Transportation to his office and yelling because of poor

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Speaker 1: bus service and Sheboygan are calling the administrator of the

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Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency into the Oval office to chew him

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Speaker 1: out for pollution in the Cyahoga River. I can't. That

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Speaker 1: is the difference. The president expects performance in Class A

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Speaker 1: and Class B. He expects peace and quiet. Yikes, I

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Speaker 1: really thought that encapsulated just I mean an understanding of

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Speaker 1: if you tear out all the different things that a

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Speaker 1: White House has to deal with a president and all

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Speaker 1: the people who work in the White House, the environment,

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Speaker 1: while it is not currently up there, doesn't it feel

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Speaker 1: like it kind of should be. Well, that's that's part

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Speaker 1: of the that's part of the thing, and that's something

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about spoiler alert, ladies and gentlemen in

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Speaker 1: an upcoming podcast next week on Congress, and it is

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Speaker 1: going to be about how uh individuals elected officials are

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Speaker 1: or are not incentivized to take certain action. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're president. The thing is that president is such

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Speaker 1: a I'll say it, it's a bum job to have.

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Speaker 1: I know, you only get to have one at a

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Speaker 1: time here in the US, and so psychologically everybody wants

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Speaker 1: to do something like that. But there a place that

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Speaker 1: has more than one at a time. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you could be president of other things. You can be

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Speaker 1: president of the Ben Bull and Fan Club, you know,

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Speaker 1: and a tax a tax attorney. You could be president

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Speaker 1: of Noel Brown Enthusiast Association. We started those clubs on

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Speaker 1: the same day. I didn't get the memo. Sorry, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty exclusive mailing list. I'm kidding. But but you know

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Speaker 1: the point is that the point is that if you

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Speaker 1: are president for four years or heck, let's say eight,

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Speaker 1: you get the double whammy. Then the hard and bitter

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Speaker 1: truth about it is a lot of meaningful change for

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Speaker 1: a country at all. Anything that size is going to

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Speaker 1: take more than four to eight years to reach fruition.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what occurred to me when we were talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, this class A and class B in order

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Speaker 1: to make something that is considered class B under a

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Speaker 1: presidency in the nineties, two move up the ladder. That's

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Speaker 1: going to take a long time. Things move slow. The

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Speaker 1: system is designed for things to move slow. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I would argue in some cases for good reason, but

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Speaker 1: it takes a whole lot of support from both sides

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Speaker 1: consideration that has been historically a class piece of consideration.

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Speaker 1: And I think we're just now starting to see inklings

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Speaker 1: of acceptance of things like climate change, you know, actually

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Speaker 1: making its way to the forefront of political discussion that actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, and furthermore, Sandor also accuses the e p

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Speaker 1: A of something that that we've heard a lot in

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Speaker 1: the course of our research, which is crony is m

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Speaker 1: protecting the bureaucracy or the status quo rather than protecting

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Speaker 1: the mission critical policies, right, which would be the environment.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of people when they encounter the e

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Speaker 1: p A, we're expecting something to be on their side,

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Speaker 1: but they find that it can be adversarial instead, or

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Speaker 1: those are the reports. Um. One thing that Sandra said

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Speaker 1: that and I'm not gonna read it in full here,

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Speaker 1: I'm in a paraphrase. He says, regulatory agencies, by their

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Speaker 1: very nature, can do little that doesn't adversely affect business,

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Speaker 1: especially big business, and that disturbs the president. So what

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Speaker 1: he's saying, like that Class B priority all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden has some Class A problems, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: He has Champagne problems on a PBR budget, And uh,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not a good look. I guess

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Speaker 1: if we're being we're being slaying up. But the e

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Speaker 1: p A accordins Sandra can't write regulations governing big industries

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Speaker 1: like petroleum without the oil companies going to the White

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Speaker 1: House about an energy crisis. And this is this is

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Speaker 1: again his this is again his opinion. And what we

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Speaker 1: found is that, uh, in the e p A, there

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Speaker 1: have been repeated cases of chronyism or people people kind

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Speaker 1: of playing along and jumping through the hoops so that

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Speaker 1: they can later get a job in the private sector. Yes,

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Speaker 1: helping out industry while you're inside the e p A,

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Speaker 1: so that eventually you're on the other side and helping

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Speaker 1: out a company. Another interesting thing that Sandra writes here

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Speaker 1: that I am going to read a bit in full, uh,

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Speaker 1: is about how the agency is dealt with by environmental

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Speaker 1: groups as opposed to industrial groups or private organizations UM.

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Speaker 1: And basically what he's saying I'm not going to read

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Speaker 1: in full. Basically, what he's saying is that environmental groups

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Speaker 1: will deal with the e p A as an organization

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Speaker 1: through courts, um as an institution. In fact, you know,

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Speaker 1: through committees, courts, and through the top EPA executive, so

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Speaker 1: you go through the main channels, right. But what he's

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Speaker 1: saying is that industry does the same thing, but it

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Speaker 1: also interacts with individual EPA employees at the lower levels,

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Speaker 1: so they will come through and talk to an inspector,

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Speaker 1: let's say, and it what it What it seems like, uh,

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Speaker 1: Sandra is saying is that they almost groom these employees

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Speaker 1: from an early stage of working at the e p

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Speaker 1: A to eventually become one of their's. Huh. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: almost like I would think from the perspective of like

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Speaker 1: a CEO of a big corporation that you know has

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Speaker 1: dealings with the e p A, having high level board

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Speaker 1: member that was once in the ranks of e p

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Speaker 1: A probably be pretty helpful a lot of ways in

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Speaker 1: dealing with the e p A. And well, sure it's

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Speaker 1: a strategy move. I mean that's you see that all

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Speaker 1: the time. You see that with SEC. You know, folks

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Speaker 1: ending up on the boards of big banks, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it just seems like a very a lot of potential

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Speaker 1: for abuse there. It's a common practice. If we could

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Speaker 1: run through some other criticisms of the p A, I

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Speaker 1: just want to laundry list of these real quick, so

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Speaker 1: I don't slow us down too much. Uh. The most

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Speaker 1: usual criticism the a p A, according to a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, and there's a political one, is that all

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Speaker 1: these regulations keep people from making money. So the idea

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Speaker 1: would be like latest um CEO two emissions regulations are

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Speaker 1: costing coal mining right and eroding the margins um or.

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Speaker 1: You'll also here when I do the car show on

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Speaker 1: car Stuff with Scott Benjamin, you'll also hear people I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about the regulations in the way they impact the

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Speaker 1: price or performance of cars. Uh. And another criticism, again,

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Speaker 1: I'll keep this really fast, so I'm not you know,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say we saw a great example of

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Speaker 1: that last one with Volta and recently that we've kind

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Speaker 1: of talked about already, but just there the way they

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Speaker 1: were getting around e p A standards and guidelines. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: excellent example. Another criticism that kind of is used to

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Speaker 1: support the first one is this idea like what does

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Speaker 1: it matter, you know what I mean, other developing nations,

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Speaker 1: like the bricks nations care as much, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: And then and I think there is a valid question

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Speaker 1: there about pollution from developing countries because a lot of

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Speaker 1: the developed countries talking about pollution to the developing world

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Speaker 1: are just sort of ignoring the fact that the Industrial

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Speaker 1: Revolution listed on the that kind of that level of pollution.

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Speaker 1: And without that, then there wouldn't be any of the

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Speaker 1: advances that have gotten you passed, uh, polluting that much, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's crazy. I mean, it's a it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting idea to to to what if and U to

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Speaker 1: explore a hypothetical world in which everybody was super concerned

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Speaker 1: about the environment from day one? You know, would we

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Speaker 1: be as far as a species? I don't know, what's

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Speaker 1: a good question to ask. Another criticism the e p

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Speaker 1: A is that it serves the political interest of whomever

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Speaker 1: is in charge. Because let's remember and listeners outside the US,

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Speaker 1: just to be clear, Uh, the e p A employees

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Speaker 1: are not elected. A lot of the policy makers in

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Speaker 1: the US are not elected. They get an interview and

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Speaker 1: they get hired appointed. We're appointed, yes, and so there

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Speaker 1: are many that are under multiple presidents, like Matt was

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Speaker 1: talking about. And I just wanted to run through those

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Speaker 1: criticisms because it's something that people need to need to hear.

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Speaker 1: I think, oh, yeah, well, I tend to You don't

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Speaker 1: hear about the EPA very often in the news, right

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Speaker 1: unless something really really bad happens, like a spill or

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Speaker 1: I don't know something that the e p A is

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Speaker 1: being culpable for, or if you hear someone talking about

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Speaker 1: budget cuts, because organizations like the e p A, they

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Speaker 1: are easy fodder a lot of times depending on the

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Speaker 1: administration that's coming into the White House, right, Um, because

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Speaker 1: it's one of those things, it's I guess, again going

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Speaker 1: back to what the guy said, a class b uh issue.

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Speaker 1: And so now that we've we've painted some of those pictures, right,

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Speaker 1: and I hope we're doing an okay job for you

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Speaker 1: guys out there. When we talk about the criticisms that

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Speaker 1: an organization like this has. We also point out that

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Speaker 1: an organization can't be this big without generating criticism, especially

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Speaker 1: if it seems like it's costing people money. And uh,

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Speaker 1: there are people who say this has there is a

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Speaker 1: short term loss for long term benefit. But will I

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Speaker 1: ever see the long term benefit? You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: psychological thing at play there. Uh. But let's let's go

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Speaker 1: right into the crazy stuff at first. A word for response.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Yes, so surprised. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of conspiracy theories about the E p A.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna go ahead and straight out say it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Some of those that are that concerned corruption are absolutely

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Speaker 1: spot on. Uh. Yeah, it's hard to disprove some of those.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to disprove however. Um well, also they easily

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Speaker 1: prove themselves, That's what I mean. Yeah. But also, um,

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Speaker 1: there are some that we found that that we're really

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Speaker 1: interesting that we wanted to explore with you guys today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: some of these have a foot in reality for me,

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Speaker 1: and then a foot in kind of the fanciful, where

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Speaker 1: it would it would require one of those big conspiracies

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Speaker 1: that there are so many human beings that would have

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Speaker 1: to be behind it, and uh, it just seems a

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Speaker 1: little out of the reach of reality for me. But

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Speaker 1: the first one is that the e p A is

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Speaker 1: trying to enforce gun control by limiting and removing lead

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Speaker 1: from bullets. Yeah, how's that going for him? Well, it

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Speaker 1: was a it was an idea. You're saying that if

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Speaker 1: that's the thing they're doing, it is failing miserable. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because that bought the bullets earlier. Well, I mean maybe

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Speaker 1: there's no lead in those bullets. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: haven't bought bullets ever in my life. Bullets even still

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Speaker 1: made of leading. They have to be right, Oh god no,

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Speaker 1: But but go on with this story. Yeah, tell me,

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Speaker 1: tell me, tell me. Really they so they actually said

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Speaker 1: they said that, or people thought they were going to

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Speaker 1: say it. Well, okay, that is one of those one

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Speaker 1: of those reports that comes out that will mention something

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Speaker 1: like the e p A is looking into effects of

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Speaker 1: lead in the environment. Okay, and they want to see, well,

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Speaker 1: where are some of the man made sources of lead?

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Speaker 1: Where's it coming from? Now we don't use lead paints anymore.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of places where we've reduced our

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Speaker 1: use of lead as a human species, especially in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Where Yeah, where's it coming from? Now? Well,

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Speaker 1: one of the places is ammunition, ammunition and get this

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Speaker 1: ben fishing tackle. Oh yeah, the silent killer. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I guess it surprises fish. So so what's what's the truth?

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Speaker 1: Can you can you hit us up with a truth

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Speaker 1: bomb real quick? All right, here's the truth. So, according

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Speaker 1: to our sources, the Center for Biological Diversity and other

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Speaker 1: environmental groups file the petition asking the e p A

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Speaker 1: to consider banning the use of lead and ammunition and

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Speaker 1: fishing tackle, arguing that these products are exposing wildlife and

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Speaker 1: the people who consume said wildlife too harmful levels of

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Speaker 1: this heavy metal. But the PA, for its part, had

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Speaker 1: no plans to actually implement this agenda. Quote. E p

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Speaker 1: A was not and is not considering taking action on

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Speaker 1: whether the lead content and hunting ammunition poses an undue

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Speaker 1: threat to wildlife. You know, it's kind of interesting that

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Speaker 1: that that proposition, because ammunition in a hunting situation inherently

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Speaker 1: poses a threat to wildlife, that's what it's supposed to to.

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Speaker 1: I certainly hope so phishing tackle inherently aids and a

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Speaker 1: bets fishing, Like I I love fishing. I suck at it,

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Speaker 1: but I love it. I love the idea that fishing

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Speaker 1: tackle aids and abets the harm of wildlife. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it's it's just it. To me, it's strange, and

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that you point this out and all that

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Speaker 1: there is a grain of truth to this that I

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Speaker 1: guess became alarmist. It doesn't it doesn't make sense to me.

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Speaker 1: It just it doesn't make sense to ban that in

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Speaker 1: that way. Well, yeah, and you can see if you've

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Speaker 1: got a political agenda that wants to make someone make

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Speaker 1: person B or group B look bad, you say, oh,

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Speaker 1: look the this guy is trying to get the e

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Speaker 1: p A to ban guns and and ammunition. Look at this,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you can see I would be used

427
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: in a political manner. It's pretty pretty blatant. Yeah, I could.

428
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: I can totally see that, and I guess it would

429
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: make sense. But I would just you know, like, so

430
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: where's where's the money? Where's the money? Lebowski? You know,

431
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: in doing this, I mean it seems like if we're

432
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: talking about conspiracies within government organizations, usually it's about someone

433
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 1: making some money. So what benefit is there for an

434
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,959
Speaker 1: EPA official two get behind this to outlaw lead Well,

435
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: there would be the I think the origin point there

436
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: is the idea that big brother will do anything to

437
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: render well armed populous irrelevant or yeah, take your guns away, right,

438
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, I mean that was the implication

439
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: for me as well. But I just I just don't

440
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: see it coming from this particular way. I think there's

441
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: a better way if if there's if the government really

442
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: does want to get rid of all of the bullets,

443
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: there's a better way to do it than the e

444
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: p A. I don't know what that way is, because

445
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to do that. I was trying to

446
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: I was. I'm really thinking of a better way to

447
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: do that. Giant magnets, gigantic magnets, brilliant, brilliant. What I

448
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: love is how simple it is. It's like that breaking bad.

449
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: You know, yes, but how did they work? You're gonna

450
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: have to ask the insane clown clown possele. Something tells

451
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: me they don't know. All Let's do one more. Let's

452
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: let's talk about this idea that the e p A

453
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: itself is polluting, That the e p A, like the

454
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: World Bank, allegedly might be, Uh, the e p A

455
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: is creating or propagating the problem it was built ostensibly

456
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: to solve. There are people who believe it. Well, I mean,

457
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: if you believe this theory, here are a couple of

458
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: things that I can imagine you saying to yourself, Well,

459
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: they have to increase their budget year over year, so

460
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: they have they have to be increasing increasingly bad things

461
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: that they have to take care of that they need

462
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: more money to handle. No, do you hear my head shaking,

463
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: I hear it shape I'm trying to I'm trying to

464
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: imagine the things that would be said. Do you don't

465
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: need a government organization to actively you know? But what

466
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: I'm saying is those people who work in the organization

467
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: need to keep their jobs. In order to keep their jobs,

468
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: they have to I'm just saying people do that for

469
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: or them. They don't need to help, you know. Or

470
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the corporations are doing a fine job of

471
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: polluting jet they don't need the e p a's help. Well,

472
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: the e p A has helped accidentally a few times,

473
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: no doubt that. I'm just saying in terms of a

474
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: conspiracy involving the e p A. Actually, you know, on

475
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: their lunch break, they go out and dump a bucket

476
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: a toxic waste in the river. You know, is that

477
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: what we're talking? Come on, unless they're getting money behind

478
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: somebody's back from an industry on purpose just to make

479
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: dump some toxic waste. Let's say, oh, I don't know

480
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: from the old Gold King mine, Ben I was gonna say, say, uh,

481
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: miss well, be yes. There is this idea that gained

482
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: a little traction with the legislature in Utah, which was

483
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: that the UH E p A did not accidentally release

484
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: three million gallons of mining waste water into the Animous

485
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: River in Colorado, that instead they purposefully did it. And

486
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: the state's attorney general was kind of like, uh, you know,

487
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe maybe who knows, Tupac might still

488
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: be alive, it's possible. Well, yeah, it stems from the

489
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: idea that they were warned well in advance that there

490
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: is an issue here. And not only would this one

491
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: King Gold or Gold King mine, they're all these other

492
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: minds in that area that are are connected directly directly

493
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: to rivers UH and groups. They are just warning and

494
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: warning and warning, Hey, look, these mines have wastewater and

495
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: terrible things in them that are going to get into

496
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: the rivers, that we have to do something about it.

497
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: And it stinks because the e p A really kind

498
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: of has to table it to a certain extent until

499
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: they can get the resources to take care of it.

500
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: At least that's what the e p A says. A

501
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: representative named Mike nol Sell the same way, spell the

502
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: same way, uh, said that the e p A might

503
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: have caused the spill to help environmentalists put an end

504
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: to the hard rock mining industry. I just don't see that.

505
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: I don't know how that would That's like such a

506
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: Rube Goldberg machine of a plan. I would need some

507
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: proof to believe that. Do you remember that board game

508
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: mouse Trap? Oh? Yeah, it's it's like a mouse trap

509
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: level overly complicated plan. Yeah, we're gonna bust a hole

510
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: in this retaining wall and let out all this stuff.

511
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: By the way, the pollutes that were let out and

512
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: ended up what is an Animus river, and they got polluted.

513
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: You're looking at extremely high levels of lead, arsenic, cadmium, beryllium,

514
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: and mercury in that water. So anything living in that water,

515
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: anyone using that water. Uh, this is not good. And

516
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: according to this one CNN report that was looking at

517
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: an actual e p A report was talking about uh,

518
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: perhaps because these are heavy metals, right, and it's not

519
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: that they just go away once they're in a river

520
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: like this. They sink to the bottom. And then if

521
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: you have catfish, catfish, anything else that lives in there,

522
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: or even if there's um a lot of a lot

523
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: of extra water moving through with a little bit of flooding,

524
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: you're gonna get that stuff. It's gonna get up with

525
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: the silt, get more problems. Anyway, I just thought this

526
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: was a really interesting and kind of scary thing that

527
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: happened on my birthday this year. So yeah. E p

528
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: A created in nineteen seventy to look after the environment

529
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: and a ruined birthdays Facebook posts on birthday. Yes, uh, well,

530
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: I'm glad that they are doing something. No, I'm kidding,

531
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm kidding. You know. Also, the e p A does

532
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: a lot of good work that gets ignored, right. The

533
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: squeaky wheels get degrease right, and the barking dogs are

534
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: the ones you hear, uh and other various figures of speech.

535
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: Point being, we're focusing on the stuff that has been

536
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: alleged or proven to be shady, to be incorrect, to

537
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: be corrupt, because that's what we're looking to do. Um,

538
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: if the e p A does their job, then we

539
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: have no idea. And can the e p A do

540
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: their job structurally given the relationship between a business and

541
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: a government, right or just the sheer size of this

542
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: regulatory body? How how are they doing? Why do ex

543
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: employees complain? But I guess ex employees will always come

544
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: out of the woodwork for anything, right, So, uh, we

545
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: want to I guess we got to wrap it up unfortunately,

546
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: and we want to hear from you guys. What do

547
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: you think of the e p A. Are you one

548
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: of the people who thinks it shouldn't exist? If so,

549
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. I think that something

550
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: like it needs to exist. That's what I think. Just personally,

551
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I'm really interested in hearing the

552
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: opinions of people who think that it shouldn't or that

553
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: something different should exist. What would that be? And UM,

554
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: tell us tell us what things are like in your

555
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,239
Speaker 1: neck of the woods, especially if you live in a

556
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: different country. Do you have something like the e p A.

557
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: What do you think of them? Yeah? Do you have

558
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: any run ins with let's say, stuff that's in your

559
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: well water. Uh, if you live out in the Northwest

560
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: or something the Midwest, I wanna Yeah, I'd love to

561
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: hear stories of just dealing with even like things like

562
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: fishing advisories. Oh yeah, absolutely. So. You can find us

563
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: in various corners of the Internet. As we always say,

564
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: we're on Facebook and Twitter. Where are we at on

565
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: that you can find us? We are conspiracy stuff on

566
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: those we like. And that's the end of this classic episode.

567
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode,

568
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: you can get into contact with us in a number

569
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: of different ways. One of the best is to give

570
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: us a call. Our number is one eight three three

571
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: st d w y t K. If you don't want

572
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 1: to do that, you can send us a good old

573
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com.

574
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

575
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

576
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

577
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.