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Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on a row. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I am

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Speaker 1: Ben O'Brien. We're at one sixty eight episodes of this

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Speaker 1: year program, and for almost all of them, or at

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Speaker 1: least half of them, I have had Phil the Engineer

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Speaker 1: at my side. Phil, how are you, sir? Hey, how

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Speaker 1: are you Ben? I'm great, I'm a little I'm not

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Speaker 1: just gonna get into We've got a good conversation today

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Speaker 1: with with Pat Durkin. And if you don't know Patrick Drk,

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Speaker 1: and you should Patrick Dirk and outdoors dot com and

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Speaker 1: the media dot Com holds his writing. He's one of

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Speaker 1: the best writers in our space. He's one of the

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Speaker 1: more thoughtful dudes that you'll ever meet. And he is

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Speaker 1: a native of Wisconsin and has been writing on the

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Speaker 1: outdoors and outdoor issues in Wisconsin for many, many, many years,

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Speaker 1: probably longer than he'd like to admit. But he is

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Speaker 1: a man you want to go to if you want

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Speaker 1: to get a good long look at the Wisconsin wolf hunt.

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Speaker 1: Had happened earlier in February, and uh, it's quite the

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Speaker 1: sacer field. You know much about this wolf thought and

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Speaker 1: how it went down. Have you been seeing it around

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Speaker 1: since you're now like in the community. I just I

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Speaker 1: just on the peripherals. I don't really know much about it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well it's it's an interesting tale. It certainly has intrigue.

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Speaker 1: It's got politics, it's got uh, courtroom issues, it's got

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Speaker 1: social and political aspects, it's got cultural aspects. It's got

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Speaker 1: wildlife manages, it's got ecosystems, It's got almost everything that

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Speaker 1: you'd want to have from any story. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: it could be like a Netflix documentary. So hopefully me

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Speaker 1: and me and Pat did a good job of putting

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Speaker 1: it out there for you. But there's it's more than

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Speaker 1: meets the eye in terms of of this wiconsin will fund.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk a little bit before we get there. We'll

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Speaker 1: set that up for you so you don't see you

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Speaker 1: hit your ground running when Pat and I get into it.

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Speaker 1: But um, it really is a good way to pick

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Speaker 1: up on where we left off last week talking about

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Speaker 1: animal rights and animal welfare and all the things that

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Speaker 1: go into that ideology, because it does come up with

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Speaker 1: within the opposition to wolf hunting altogether, and it does

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Speaker 1: come up in this particular Wisconsin case that we we'll discuss.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited for you to hear that. We'll keep

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Speaker 1: this intro brief just so you guys can get to

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Speaker 1: that conversation because it's um Pat does a wonderful job

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Speaker 1: a lot of really good ways to contextualize wolf hunting itself. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the kind of like the politics of Wisconsin and how

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Speaker 1: everything came to be what it was over there. So hopefully, Phil,

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Speaker 1: you feel you're excited for it. Now you're intrigued, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna stick around for it. Oh yeah, for sure. Unfortunately

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Speaker 1: you give me no choice, but yeah, you have to

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Speaker 1: stick around for it. So I'm not going to apologize

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Speaker 1: for that, all right, So Phil, Phil, listen man, we

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Speaker 1: gotta talk about something. We got a really important Like

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about today is very important to the

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Speaker 1: hunting community. It's very important to the overall future of

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Speaker 1: what we do in the viability of of the North

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Speaker 1: American model of conservation. So I don't want to downplay that,

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Speaker 1: but there may be a bigger issue at hand here.

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Speaker 1: UM th HC is moving like the regional chapter movement

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Speaker 1: of the th C call is gaining steam, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's a little bit out of our control right now. Uh,

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Speaker 1: by my account, there are already half a dozen Facebook

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Speaker 1: pages that exist as th C regional chapters, and we

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Speaker 1: have an we don't know what it is yet. We

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Speaker 1: don't know what a TAC regional chapter even is. But um,

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Speaker 1: they're they're being formed. What do we phil? What do

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Speaker 1: we do as as my Sage Council on all things

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Speaker 1: life and podcasting? Have we gotten? We're gotting ahead of ourselves,

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Speaker 1: haven't we been? This is this is bad, this is

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Speaker 1: really bad. I don't know. I don't know what else

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Speaker 1: to say. I would just like to throw out now

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Speaker 1: that whatever is happening on these Facebook groups, it does

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Speaker 1: not represent me at all. Um that being said, you

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Speaker 1: can use my face for merchandise. Um, you know, I'd like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if I get like a ten percent cut or something,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can put me on a T shirt

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Speaker 1: or like a pin something like that. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what do you think? I mean? Listen, I think we're

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Speaker 1: sitting on sitting on the most unintentional conservation organization ever created.

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Speaker 1: When they look back in the annals of time, they're

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Speaker 1: gonna be like, how did the th HC cult really

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Speaker 1: get its start? And people will say I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: it was by accident. Uh. They started calling it a

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Speaker 1: call it as a joke, and then eventually people caught on.

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Speaker 1: There were membership cards, and then there were regional chapters.

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Speaker 1: All of those things were jokes, but then they became

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Speaker 1: real and the next thing, you know, the world has

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Speaker 1: changed and indelibly forever. Um. That's kind of where I'm

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Speaker 1: at with this, and so I'm not sure to whether

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Speaker 1: it to be excited about that, Phil, to be hesitant

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Speaker 1: to can move forward? I just need I wanted to

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Speaker 1: have this conversation in public, so people could, you know,

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Speaker 1: listen to us will work through what I think is

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Speaker 1: a crucial issue in the history of th HC, the

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Speaker 1: Grand Old history. Uh. They call us the GOP, the

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Speaker 1: Grand Old Podcast in a lot of circles. Um, Phil,

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Speaker 1: if stop laughing, it's serious, Phil, What are we gonna do? Ben,

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Speaker 1: I I don't know. I mean, do you think you

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Speaker 1: should get involved? Yeah? Listen. I spent all last night

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Speaker 1: reading everybody's emails. So thank you to everybody the road

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Speaker 1: into th HC, at the media dot com not to

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Speaker 1: you know, some of you wrote to discuss the very

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Speaker 1: important topics of racing the outdoors and animal welfare versus

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Speaker 1: animal rights. Uh, and even this topic we're talking about today,

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Speaker 1: wolves and how to manage them, what to do? Some

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Speaker 1: of you wrote in about that, but most of you

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Speaker 1: wrote it in about starting your own chapter or wanting

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Speaker 1: to join a chapter. Um. And so I guess I

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Speaker 1: will start by saying Phil very seriously that, Uh, it's heartwarming.

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Speaker 1: It's it's something that I didn't never expect for so

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Speaker 1: many people to be out there to want to kind

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Speaker 1: of join together. Um, but it's something we definitely recognize. So, um,

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Speaker 1: we gotta think on our feet here though. We don't

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Speaker 1: want to get any are we? Do you think we're

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Speaker 1: getting some legal trouble here? Like where are we at?

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Speaker 1: We need to apply to be a five and one

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Speaker 1: seed three? Uh? Yeah, I mean you know, if this

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Speaker 1: merchandise idea takes off them, probably I think for now

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Speaker 1: you're fine though, I think you're fine now. A right, Well, listen,

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Speaker 1: here's what I want to do. And um, as if

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Speaker 1: you can't tell out there and listening, and I am

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Speaker 1: shooting from the old hip here and so Phil, as

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Speaker 1: always is my confidant, and he'll tell me live on

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Speaker 1: the air whether you think this is a good or

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Speaker 1: bad idea? UM, because we do do we do this

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Speaker 1: live every week. If you didn't know, UM, here's what

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Speaker 1: I want to do right now. As it stands, we

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Speaker 1: have at least fourteen proposed regional chapters of the Hunting Collective.

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Speaker 1: We have Blue Ridge, which is our founding chapter by

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Speaker 1: the great Eric Hall, Colorado, Wisconsin, Southwest Michigan, New York, Illinois, Oregon, Alaska, Missouri, Maryland, Florida.

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Speaker 1: So that's a good smattering across the country of people

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Speaker 1: that are willing to take on the great, great responsibility

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Speaker 1: of being a THHD regional chapter leader creator. How does

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Speaker 1: that make you feel? Phil, I mean tell you like,

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Speaker 1: this is yours too, You've done this, Uh really sits

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Speaker 1: at your feet and in all honesty, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's really cool. You know these people who

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Speaker 1: like clearly have similar interests because they enjoyed the same podcasts. Um.

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Speaker 1: They can get together in these groups and they you

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Speaker 1: want to grab a beer at this place, or you know,

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Speaker 1: go shed hunting here, go hunting here, like whatever. I

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Speaker 1: think you know, yeah's it's I think it's a it's

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Speaker 1: it's great. It has nothing to do with me. I

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Speaker 1: think most people who listen to the show are like,

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Speaker 1: why is the why is the non hunter talking again?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so, Phil, Only a smattering of our

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Speaker 1: audience absolutely hates you. But everybody else that's a smaller

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Speaker 1: than I thought. So that's great. Yeah, it's a smattering.

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Speaker 1: I think we're gonna call the Blue Ridge Chapter the

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Speaker 1: Phil Taylor Inaugural THHD Blue Ridge Chapter of the Hunting

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Speaker 1: Collective Cult. It would be hard to We'll have to

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Speaker 1: make an out uh an acronym for that. But in

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Speaker 1: all serious this's just's what I want to do. Gape.

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Speaker 1: So Eric Call reached out and he said he had

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Speaker 1: already created a page on Facebook. Other people have done

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Speaker 1: this as well, already created their own pages, multiple of you.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how many have already been created. I

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Speaker 1: lost counted about I don't know how many, six or

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Speaker 1: eight of them. Um, here's what I want to do.

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Speaker 1: I want to take a step back from this, because

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Speaker 1: we were a little bit surpris eyes that this was

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Speaker 1: even a thing. I take a step back from this,

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Speaker 1: and UM, we're gonna do the first thing we're gonna do.

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Speaker 1: And again I want to state like we're actually doing this,

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Speaker 1: why the hell not is my philosophy. And what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do is we're gonna come up with two things.

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Speaker 1: One leaders of the cult, right, we gotta get leaders going, Phil,

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Speaker 1: Do you have any people in mind that you would

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Speaker 1: like to nominate for these leadership positions within the Hunting Collective? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean we've we've got some some

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Speaker 1: frequent writers in some frequent contest entry. Um, you know

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Speaker 1: people you know, people like A. A. B. Rich Maybe

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Speaker 1: would he be interesting? I don't even heard from him. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should reach out to him. I hope he's okay.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna heard people like Luke Reeves. Oh that's a

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Speaker 1: good one. I don't even think about him. Sure, Nebraska chapter.

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Speaker 1: But he's married now, he's not gonna have time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I ever told him to give it? Whoever told that

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Speaker 1: guy to get get married? Idiot? And you know, if

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Speaker 1: if it happened on a podcast, I would go as

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Speaker 1: far to say that podcast is bad. Yeah, that podcast

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Speaker 1: is actually responsible for whatever happened in his life. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I do have a list here that I've made,

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Speaker 1: and I'll say that like everybody that wrote in for

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Speaker 1: each chapter, I've logged your emails and a little spreadsheet

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Speaker 1: on my computer. And I'm not kidding. It was the

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Speaker 1: most I've wrought Like this is the most satirical, ironic

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Speaker 1: thing for me to spend last night for like an

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Speaker 1: hour making a spreadsheet of regional chapter leaders for some

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Speaker 1: damn podcast. It was the most hilarious. It was like

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Speaker 1: I was on an episode of that What's that Larry

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Speaker 1: David show. Uh, It's like I was. I was writing

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Speaker 1: my own episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm last night as

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Speaker 1: I was doing this. But anyway, we're doing it. So

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Speaker 1: screw you, Larry David. Don't try to satirize my life.

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Speaker 1: Um So right now I wanna. I want to pick

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Speaker 1: some leaders of this whole thing. And obviously, Phil, I

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Speaker 1: mean there's there's gonna be no surprise to you that

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Speaker 1: air Hall is amongst the original leaders. No surprise to you. Also,

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Speaker 1: Ben Upton wrote in to express his excitement about this.

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Speaker 1: He obviously we know him from his many contributions to

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Speaker 1: the show. He connected with another, He's had a Colorado

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Speaker 1: connected with another member of our our little call here

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Speaker 1: earlier in the year, to give us a nice moment um.

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Speaker 1: We have lots. Ryan subpoena and Mike Peterson. Mike Peterson

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Speaker 1: didn't ask for this, but I'm gonna give it to

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Speaker 1: him anyway because I like him, and uh, I feel

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Speaker 1: like you do a good job. He's formerly in the military,

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Speaker 1: so he might do a good job. So we're gonna

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Speaker 1: pick a few of you guys and email you about

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Speaker 1: this um and then others have have emailed and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna ask you to nominate yourselves and join us in

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Speaker 1: doing this. But here's what we're looking for, people who

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Speaker 1: want to help us establish these Facebook pages and help

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Speaker 1: us establish a set of guidelines and community standards and

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Speaker 1: value systems that we're gonna put on these pages. We're

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Speaker 1: to create a Facebook page that phil and I are

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Speaker 1: part of for just the leaders of each one of

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Speaker 1: these chapters, and then we're gonna let those leaders go

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Speaker 1: out in the world create cool Facebook pages, and I

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Speaker 1: hang out with people around them that like to do

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Speaker 1: what they do. So pretty simple, try not to make

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Speaker 1: it too self important. But hey, I'm me, so that's uh.

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Speaker 1: There's only so far we can go in that game.

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Speaker 1: So Philip, you can feel confident about this plan, particularly

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Speaker 1: yes I do. I think yeah, as I I think

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Speaker 1: these groups will stay kind of close knit and compact.

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Speaker 1: I think, uh, I think they'll be good little communities

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Speaker 1: for people to get together and it's great. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: mean right now, the Colorado chapter has already has four

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Speaker 1: people in it, the Blue Ridge chapter already has seventeen,

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Speaker 1: so I think, and Oregon we're up to two. So yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so in your face, Washington, Um, yeah, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it'll be something fun for us all to do.

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Speaker 1: They're not gonna be you know, there's not millions of

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Speaker 1: us out there. There's only a small number of us

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Speaker 1: trying to do this for real. Um. And and you know, listen,

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Speaker 1: the best things in life started off as a joke,

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Speaker 1: So why not why not fall fully into Uh well,

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Speaker 1: we're up to here so that this is what I

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Speaker 1: need from you guys. All, if I mentioned your name

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Speaker 1: as part of a leadership, email me and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: set up a little call to start talking about this.

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Speaker 1: Phil will join us, right, Phil, Yes, we're gonna start

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Speaker 1: talking about this. See I may I forced him to

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Speaker 1: say yes because we're recording. Um. And we'll start talking

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Speaker 1: about how we want to do this, make a little

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Speaker 1: kind of community guidelines thing, and then we'll start and

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Speaker 1: from there, it's just about anybody who wants to Anybody

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Speaker 1: who's a new hunter who needs a mentor, who is

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Speaker 1: a mentor that needs a new hunter. Any of you

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Speaker 1: that want to join shared links, shared advice, meet up,

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Speaker 1: go hunting together. Um, there's a place for pretty much

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Speaker 1: anybody who wants to get in and and do this. So,

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Speaker 1: like I said right now, Um, we got offers from

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Speaker 1: a lot of people will to do this already. So

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Speaker 1: if you're in Wisconsin, Michigan, New York, Illinois, Oregon, Alaska, Missouri, Colorado,

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Speaker 1: if you're in the Blue Ridge Mountains, like I said earlier,

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Speaker 1: you have a Perspective chapter near you. I think so. Um, alright, Phil,

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Speaker 1: we did it as much as I as buch of

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Speaker 1: my personality only wants to make fun of this. It's

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Speaker 1: also a big deal, man, because it just it's I

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Speaker 1: know that we're in the pandemic. I understand that it's

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Speaker 1: hard to find somebody that shares your values to do

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Speaker 1: something as serious as hunting, and it's it's sometimes you

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Speaker 1: need a variable place to gather around. So if it's

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Speaker 1: not a conservation group, why not this year program? So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna give it a try, um, and the worst

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Speaker 1: worst thing we could do is fail. Yeah, I'd say here,

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Speaker 1: here's here's Ernest Fell again. Here we go, ready, three

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Speaker 1: two one. I think by branding at a cult as

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Speaker 1: a joke earlier, it kind of makes me want to

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Speaker 1: laugh about this even more. But I think we should

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Speaker 1: just set the cult joke thing aside for a set

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Speaker 1: gonna be like this is pretty cool. So I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go ahead and do that right now and say this

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Speaker 1: is pretty cool. Yeah, Because being phil like, I thought

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Speaker 1: we might have this conversation in private and then and

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Speaker 1: then seem like we're really buttoned up when we came

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Speaker 1: on the air today. But then I thought, I, what

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Speaker 1: the hell, Let people listen to what our own thought

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Speaker 1: process is about this and our introspection about this. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what we're gonna do th h C at

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Speaker 1: the media dot Com. If you're in a state that

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Speaker 1: I named or I didn't name, and you would like

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Speaker 1: to lead a chapter of this th h C cult,

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Speaker 1: then let us know. Let us know quickly, put your

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Speaker 1: hand up and I will call on you and we'll

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Speaker 1: see what we can do in terms of getting all

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Speaker 1: fifty states um to at least have one person out

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Speaker 1: there who's willing to have the conversation and willing to

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Speaker 1: line up hunts with someone. Like I said, two people

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Speaker 1: meeting up VI this podcast was cool for me. Let's

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Speaker 1: see if we can and challenge ourselves to really create

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Speaker 1: community in a time where community is absolutely void and

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Speaker 1: a lot of our lives. So that I all about that.

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Speaker 1: I will push to the ends of the earth and

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Speaker 1: Phil and I will fight for you out there right

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Speaker 1: Phil here here, I'm serious, serious, Yeah, I'll fight for you.

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Speaker 1: See there it is. Yeah, all right, Now onto the

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Speaker 1: matter of hand wolves in Wisconsin. I said earlier that

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Speaker 1: that this really, this story about the Wisconsin's wolf hunt

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Speaker 1: that happened in February really does have a lot of

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Speaker 1: threads that we've talked about prior. It has a lot

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Speaker 1: of It has obviously anti hunting sentiment. It has the

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Speaker 1: politics of polarization involved. Um it has legislation. How how

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Speaker 1: legislatures state legislature specifically in this case, work within conservation

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Speaker 1: and can impact it positively and negatively. UM it really

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Speaker 1: is a story that encapsulates, much like the bear story

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Speaker 1: in California encapsulates much of what we've talked about over

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Speaker 1: the weeks, uh last many months here that we've been

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Speaker 1: been covering all those myriad of topics kind of this

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Speaker 1: this kind of condenses them and gives them a real

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Speaker 1: way to see why all these kind of ancillary topics

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Speaker 1: within hunting, like animal rights or animal welfare, or when

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Speaker 1: we have talked about the taiebi paradox with Miles Nulty,

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Speaker 1: like when we start to roll all that together into

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Speaker 1: to one package, you can see that reflected the importance

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Speaker 1: of each one of those little pieces reflected in these

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Speaker 1: very uh you know, high stakes political social um games

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Speaker 1: around hunting bears, hunting wolves, whatever it might be. All

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Speaker 1: of that becomes apparent in his laid Bear in these situations.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to give any of the details out

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Speaker 1: about this story. If you don't know anything about it,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be interested. Pat Dick is gonna take us

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Speaker 1: through it, Um and Phil as always, I want to

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Speaker 1: give you a chance to just talk about what you

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Speaker 1: think about wolf hunting, because we do talk about a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot about the non hunter perspective in

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Speaker 1: this But do you, um, you would never want to

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Speaker 1: hunt a wolf? Would you? Like? Am I? Am? I? Correct?

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Speaker 1: In saying that, yeah, I don't have any urge to

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Speaker 1: whatsoever I mean, but you know that that that could

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Speaker 1: change after a while, after I go hunting one time,

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Speaker 1: probably for turkeys. Should probably do that first before I

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Speaker 1: have any opinions on on hunting wolves. But yeah, well

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Speaker 1: but that's it. Man Like non hunters are going to

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Speaker 1: be the ones that sway this and and are and

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Speaker 1: are very involved and obviously, um this story in and

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Speaker 1: of itself, so I know, and I'm giving you guys

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Speaker 1: a lot of like little hints of what what this entails,

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Speaker 1: but it is, um it is an interesting, interesting story.

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Speaker 1: Let me before we get into Pat Dirk and Pat

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Speaker 1: Durk and his Wisconsin guy and another very famous Wisconsin

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Speaker 1: guys out of Leopold and he had a lot of

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Speaker 1: famous quotes about a lot of things, but he did

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Speaker 1: talk about wolves in one of his most it was quote.

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Speaker 1: So I'll read it to you just to give you

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Speaker 1: a little perspective because I think we all have, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of special relationships with wolves. We all, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have dogs. A lot of us have dogs. I don't,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of people have dogs. Phil has mango,

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Speaker 1: and so people have very special relationships with their canines,

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Speaker 1: and I think a lot of times that that bleeds

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Speaker 1: into what we think of. But there's also just a great,

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Speaker 1: great misunderstanding of our own emotional connection to wolves and

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Speaker 1: where that comes from. So this quote is from Aldo Leopold.

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Speaker 1: So we reached the old Wolf and time to watch

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Speaker 1: a fierce screen fire dying in her eyes. I realized then,

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Speaker 1: and have known ever since, that there was something new

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Speaker 1: to me in those eyes, something known only to her

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Speaker 1: into the mountain. I was young then and full of

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Speaker 1: trigger it. I thought that because fewer wolves meant more dear,

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Speaker 1: that no wolves means hunter's paradise. But after seeing the

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Speaker 1: green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf Northern

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Speaker 1: Mountain agreed with such a view. I right, get chills

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Speaker 1: up your spine that I did, because I've read that

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Speaker 1: quote so many times. Phil, Do you feel it feeling

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Speaker 1: out the emotion of of the moment, Yeah, of course

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Speaker 1: it was mainly because of the narrator just did a

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Speaker 1: stellar job. I'm just trying to do as good as

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Speaker 1: Steve Ennell. So let's let's find what you'll hear. All right,

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Speaker 1: So here comes Pat Dirk. All right, Pat Derek, and

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Speaker 1: we've just been talking for twenty minutes. We forgot to

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Speaker 1: hit record, and so we're gonna have to recreate some

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Speaker 1: of the good stories that were telling. Because with all

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Speaker 1: the serious things in the world, uh, just talking about

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Speaker 1: fatherhood is uh is one of the things, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that allows us to laugh at ourselves the most,

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Speaker 1: I think is as what we do and don't do

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Speaker 1: in the in the realms of fatherhood. You were you're

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Speaker 1: just telling me that that you look on the young

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Speaker 1: fathers like me with with some I don't know, why

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Speaker 1: would you describe with confusion or like self reflection. Yeah, amusement,

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Speaker 1: but also respect where I've been there, I had my chance,

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Speaker 1: and I like to think my daughters are all doing

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Speaker 1: well despite me. And so it's fun to see now

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Speaker 1: how you guys handle things and how my daughters handled

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Speaker 1: their kids. Noah, Yeah, now right, it's a it's interesting

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Speaker 1: even you know, talking to my dad about it too,

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Speaker 1: and thinking about you know, the things that you do

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Speaker 1: that you think are normal you kind of in your

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Speaker 1: own head as a parent. Um. Anyway, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: fun to look back and laugh. But I was telling

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Speaker 1: you that I I'm not sure that I'm too strict

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Speaker 1: or not strict enough on my kids. Sometimes it's hard

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Speaker 1: to gauge, you know, were you vary? Were you strict

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Speaker 1: when your kids growing up? Maybe too strict you think,

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Speaker 1: or not you're not enough. I um, I like to

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Speaker 1: think I struck a good balance. You know, I was strict,

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Speaker 1: But I really have no doubt in my mind that

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Speaker 1: my daughters knew I loved them. You know, there was

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Speaker 1: never that dull were because I remember as a child

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Speaker 1: growing up in the sixties. I think parents um were

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Speaker 1: a little more detached back then, and definitely a lot

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Speaker 1: more disciplinarians, and you did questions sometimes where you stood

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Speaker 1: were I don't my daughters ever adulted that I think

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Speaker 1: they knew how that I might be a real real

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Speaker 1: prick sometimes, but that it might make them do things

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Speaker 1: a mother wouldn't make them do. But I really have

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Speaker 1: faith that they knew I loved him. Yeah. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: I even look back at my own child and and

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Speaker 1: I think, well, I guess I turned out pretty good.

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Speaker 1: And I love my parents with all with all that

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Speaker 1: I am, And I don't you know, I was pretty

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Speaker 1: laid back kid, I think, so maybe I had a

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Speaker 1: little smoother experience than others, But I certainly, like I

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Speaker 1: told you, my mom called me doing something I should

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Speaker 1: in one time, and uh back then she chased me

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Speaker 1: down the street pretty far. I feel like she chased

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Speaker 1: me like a half of my I don't know, it's

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Speaker 1: a long way she chased me, And so I certainly

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Speaker 1: had those uh those moments where I was rebelling and

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Speaker 1: doing my different things. But you know, you just wonder,

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Speaker 1: is it is it how your kids were predisposition, you know,

426
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: high strung, laid back? You know, do you handle each

427
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: one differently? Around my house? But pretty I like to

428
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: think we're pretty strict, although like you were telling me, like,

429
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: I think a lot of millennial parents are probably pretty

430
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: more laid back than than you were. Maybe even your

431
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: parents were for sure, mhm, Like I am, I do

432
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: ensure the fact that you know, I don't. I should

433
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: say first, I really do not like it when people

434
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: um unless I know them really well. I really don't

435
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: like when people bad molt their parents because I think, well,

436
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 1: you know, maybe your parents weren't great, but they did

437
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: the best they could, at least mine did, and so

438
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: I never questioned um the the end results, I think, well,

439
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: dad might have been um, not the kind of dad

440
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: I tried to be. But I look at he produced

441
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: and where we all ended up, and I think that's

442
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: a pretty nice success rate he had. So he could

443
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: have been doing everything wrong. And I I find self

444
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: quoting him a lot as I gotten older, because I

445
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: realized the dumbsun of a bitch knew something, and he

446
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: knew people really well, and he could really size people

447
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: people up quickly, and I really came to respect that.

448
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: In these days as a parent, I um, my daughters

449
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: make it sound like I was a real ogre, but

450
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: then I just tell them, well, I must have been

451
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: doing something right because you're all, all three of you're

452
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: doing very well. You show his good husbands and I

453
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: can't complain, So yeah, it's it's um. I think the

454
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: human spirit is such though that it can overcome a

455
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: lot if you if you're willing to devote yourself, you know,

456
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 1: to it and take responsibility for your own life at

457
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, yeah, I would be honest to as

458
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: a young father having to adjust to that commitment to

459
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: be to really be good at at it, you know,

460
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: because it isn't there isn't just one way to do it.

461
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: You have to know your children and try to adjust

462
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: to them and adjust to the environment that they're in

463
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: and and really give them a chance to be who

464
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: they are, you know, um, while also sending some pretty

465
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: serious rules sometimes for for for these little people. I

466
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: was just telling you, like, I look like I look

467
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: like I just got in a fight with Mike Tyson,

468
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 1: because both my kids have been recently like jumping on me,

469
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: sponging me and scratching and stuff. So I look like

470
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: I've been through it. Yeah, and yeah, I'm sure to

471
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: you appreciate the fact that this won't continue. That at

472
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: some point they'll get too strong to do that, too

473
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: big to do that, and they can't knock down around

474
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: anymore because the actually will hurt you. And I tell

475
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: myself that, and I put the kids in my back

476
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: and hold upstairs at night to put them to bed.

477
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: That he won't be able to write in my back,

478
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: um a whole lot longer once they get to a

479
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: certain size, at least not very far. So you appreciate

480
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: why you come, Yeah, exactly, And like you're saying that,

481
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: it becomes it's an it's all an iteration of the

482
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: thing that happened before, right, It's like it's all time

483
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: repeats itself, you know, And that's what I'm sure you know.

484
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: You as a grandfather, you get to see that now

485
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: and you get to see time. And I think my

486
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: dad does that quite a lot with me, where it's like,

487
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: you know, we he sees kind of the iteration we

488
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: were talking about. I took my kid out to Nature

489
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: Sanctuary over the weekend. We did. We were trying to

490
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: find twelve different bird species and we were going around

491
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: and it was fun. And my dad is the type

492
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: of person who knows every bird in the woods and

493
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time as a young person hiking

494
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 1: around in the winter and just looking at birds, you know,

495
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: just looking around and and finding uh himself in nature.

496
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: So I think that's something that I want to follow.

497
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: And I'm sure he could probably see me trying to

498
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: instill that of my kids. You know, even if I

499
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: didn't understand, I don't think I understand it until I

500
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: had kids. I didn't look at my dad and say, like,

501
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: how amazing it is to have being an encyclopedia of

502
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: the outdoors what he is until I had my own kids,

503
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I better, I better give that to them.

504
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: I better make sure they have what he has, you know.

505
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's just it's just like a shifting baseline

506
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,959
Speaker 1: and it's fun. It's fun too to think back. I

507
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: can I can remember, as I pray a four or

508
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: five year old, being amazed to hear that as you're

509
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: driving passes lake, my dad say that that lake is

510
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: deeper than than he can stand tall. And I remember

511
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: being just shocked to think that something could be bigger

512
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: than my dad, something deeper than my dad. And then

513
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: you get to be a little bit older and you

514
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: realize no, lakes typically are the most guys. That was

515
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: that was That was a learning experience for me at

516
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah. Well, I've recently taken to writing down

517
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: my son's at the wise stage of life. Everything's why this,

518
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: why this, why that? And so every night I put

519
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: him to bed and I at him ask me some questions. Recently,

520
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: I've had the limit. I've had to limit it. I'd

521
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: like you, I'll give you seven because they could go

522
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: could go along to the night. Uh. And I give

523
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: him questions and then I write them down when I

524
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 1: go back to my desk and write them down when

525
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: we're done. And so I have, you know, a hundred

526
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: and fifty questions in this notebook, and it's fun to

527
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: to just look back at his progression, even over a

528
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: short period of time, of the questions he's asking and

529
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: how he's learning taking in the world. You know, it's

530
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: it's a it's a special time because you know, eventually

531
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: he's not gonna want to ask me anything. He's gonna

532
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: be telling me stuff eventually. So it's those little idiosyncrasies. Yeah,

533
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: eventually though, it does come back for you once you know, UM,

534
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: I always have this um in my mind. I have

535
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: a where I divide men from boys. It's about age

536
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: twenty five. We're um about sitting around age twenty five

537
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: to get their head out of your ass and start

538
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: thinking like an adult. And so I just told my

539
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: daughter's two things basically is, um, don't get married. Don't

540
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: marry a guy until he's at least twenty five, because

541
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: that's when he gets his head out of his ass.

542
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: And even then, make sure you've done something where you

543
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: have your own career. So you know, I's basically tell

544
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: anyone in your life, f you, I'm out of here

545
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: and not be not be tied down. So I am.

546
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: I like to think my daughters took that advice. So

547
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: we'll see. Though there's still they're like your age, so

548
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: I guess some time ahead of them, they're doing pretty

549
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: well though by all accounts, wells, yeah, I mean I

550
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: did you feel like the outdoors? Did your daughters do

551
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: a lot with you in the outdoors growing up? The

552
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: oldest one did. Yeah, My oldest one, Um, she you

553
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: could tell at a young age she she was into it.

554
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: I mean she could. She understood about listening for geese

555
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: off in the distance, listening for turkeys. And I tried

556
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: the same approach with all three of them, taking them

557
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: out an early age hunting of fishing, especially for like

558
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: the so you can just put him in a corner

559
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: field and you know, hunker down and wait him out

560
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: and listen for stuff and watch for stuff. But um,

561
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: the oldest one took to that, and the youngest ones didn't.

562
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: To my two younger daughters. But then as now as

563
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: young adults there, um it's it's funny like the one

564
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: I was telling you earlier about going ice fishing yesterday

565
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: with my some of my grandkids and the youngest boy

566
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: falling into the hole and that kind of ruined ruined

567
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: his day. But it's fun not to see all three

568
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: of my daughter is understanding the importance of hunting and

569
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,959
Speaker 1: fishing and seeing singing in a bigger picture and getting there.

570
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: And you can tell them now they really want me

571
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: to take their kids along as soon as possible. Yeah,

572
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: that's like I said, that's coming very clearly into my

573
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: life right now, seeing what I want my kids to

574
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: be and then looking at the other people in my

575
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: life and be a man I never appreciated, you know

576
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: this about my mom or this about my dad, or

577
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: this about my best friend. And I want my kids

578
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: to have that part of them, even if I can't

579
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: give it to them. You know, it's important to know

580
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: your own limitations as a father. I feel like because

581
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: I can't. There's just I'm not real handy like and

582
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: I can come into my house and be like, hey,

583
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: could you fix my pipes? I'd be like, I can

584
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: try what's wrong with your pipes? Let's have a discussion.

585
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, I didn't get I didn't pick

586
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: that up. But there's other people in my life that

587
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: are um and so you kind of like you kind

588
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: of carve up those things that you know that that

589
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: you need to you know, push your kids towards and

590
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: then and once you have your kids, you see that

591
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: I think a little bit more more clearly and precisely. Um.

592
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: It helps you appreciate the people around you for who

593
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: they are, you know, definitely, yeah, I'm sure sure too.

594
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: As a father you see a different interests and talents

595
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: at a young age of your two boys. I mean

596
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: I definitely saw it my girls as they were at

597
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: very small ages, the things that caught their interestings that didn't.

598
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: It's fun to watch my definite plan. And I think

599
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: this goes for a lot of people are listening to

600
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: this show, particularly because a lot of emergent hunters, new

601
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: hunters out there that are just coming to it at

602
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: a at a you know, middle age and a lot

603
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: of cases early thirties, late twenties, and a lot of

604
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: cases where people are coming to it because they see

605
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: a value of it and they have either have kids

606
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: or themselves want to you know, find those pathways into

607
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: that value set. And it's interesting to see people enter

608
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: it that way. And for me, I kind of want

609
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,719
Speaker 1: to rewind my clock a little bit and see that perspective.

610
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: Like I said, just take my kid. We sat, We

611
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: went and sat in a bird blind that was on

612
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: this nature sanctuary and we just sat there and we

613
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: will and there's bird feeders. These birds started to come in,

614
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, black cat, black cap, chickadee comes in. We

615
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: get you a western tanager. They'll come in. And it's

616
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: like and I'm sitting there thinking this is practice for

617
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: the turkey blind. You know, that's in my mind. He

618
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: has no idea what but in my mind, I'm like,

619
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: be quiet, don't scare the birds away. And and for me,

620
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: I'm like looking at my watch to see how long

621
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: can we sit here? How long does he is he

622
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: interested in the little things about what's going on around him,

623
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: and he was, he very much was. So to me,

624
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: it's just for a wine and that clock a little bit,

625
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: not diving fully into hunting, but taking like the little

626
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: micro moments within hunting that that are important and and

627
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: presenting them to him in another way, you know, trying

628
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: to get him to just go walk around in the woods,

629
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: just go look at some birds, Just go you know,

630
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: listen for al hoots in the morning, just you know,

631
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: just just so he has that appreciation first where it's

632
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: not like, you know, like I am like running the

633
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: head first into every turkey. I see, let's see what

634
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: I can do with them. Yeah, it's a special it's

635
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 1: a special time. And I think that, you know, like

636
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: you were saying, girls and boys for sure, we have

637
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: these conversations now about how how do we make sure

638
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: hunting is a little more accessible to all genders and

639
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: anybody that one's in you know, when it's just kind

640
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: of breaking some of those barriers down. But it'd be interesting,

641
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: as I said, my wife wants to have a third

642
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: little one, and I'm hoping for a girl, just so

643
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: I can get that perspective, you know, so I can

644
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 1: see both sides of raising a kiddo and then also

645
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: just seeing how they go through the outdoors, what they're

646
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 1: interested in, each each one of them. So it's it's ah,

647
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: you learn about a lot of like I said, you

648
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: learn about a lot about yourself, You learn a lot

649
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: about the people around you, ah, as you try to

650
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: do this damn hard thing. But I always felt their

651
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 1: their aspect of my life growing up that I never

652
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: really thought about it at all when I was young,

653
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: was that my dad's fought. My dad's mother lived with

654
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: us I was growing up, and she was more she

655
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: was much more um aware of the outdoors that my

656
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: dad was a dad knew had a hunting fish, just

657
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: enough to get me going. Because as far as overall

658
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: knowledge of the outdoor is the different birds, different songs

659
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: that birds sing, the trees, um, how to judge, how

660
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: to identify tree trees, brother bark. I learn that from

661
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: my grandmother. And it wasn't like she sat me down

662
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: and taught me stuff, just that you hung around her

663
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: outside when she was working, and she show show me stuff,

664
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: you know, and I remember she learned to that I

665
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: was easily entertained. She gave me a hatchet when I

666
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 1: was about five years old and just kind of turned

667
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 1: me loose with it, and I was chopping down everything

668
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: that she told me to chop down. But by by

669
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: learning that way, she could tell me, um that basically

670
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: black black locust trees were fair game. Any black looks

671
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: that want to chopped down, have at it, just regrow anyway,

672
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: and you know, all these kind of little things, you know,

673
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: she taught me that. Years later I realized, God, you know,

674
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: granny knew quite a bit of this stuff. Yeah, yeah,

675
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: and you just don't know, like there's a lot of

676
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: that in my life that if I could rewind the clock,

677
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: I'd back and be more interested in and take those

678
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: opportunities because you just, man, I don't know how you

679
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: foster that in a little person, but I I definitely

680
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: missed some things along the way. Now that I have

681
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: a child, I'm like, man, if I would have followed,

682
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, a little bit closer into the examples I had,

683
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: um Man, I would have been would have been a

684
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: whole lot better. I've been running a whole lot faster

685
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: by now, a lot better at hunting. Even I'm guessing

686
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,479
Speaker 1: you made up for it. I try to do my best. Well,

687
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad we could talk about fathers and sons and

688
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: daughters and maybe warm some hearts before we get into

689
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: the next topic, because because I guess, I mean, how

690
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 1: we break into you know, there there's the macro issue

691
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: of wolves, right you. Wolves are yes, incredibly charismatic, incredibly

692
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: important and also incredibly imperiled species on any landscape, you know,

693
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: really around the world, but especially in North America. They

694
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: found themselves a special place and hearts of of everyone

695
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: in this country really and some in some way, shape

696
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: or form, whether that's more of a you know, animal

697
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: rights perspective, or or you know, our perspective is conservation,

698
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: it's and hunters and how we see things. But there's

699
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: no one that doesn't have an opinion on this, I think, um,

700
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: educated or not. So that's where you know, this Wisconsin

701
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: wolf funk comes in. You know. The reason I want

702
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: to talk to you is obviously you're you're tuned into it.

703
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: But one of the first things I want to kind

704
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: of dig into is what you know. The Wisconsin hunting culture,

705
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: I feel like is fairly unique. Um. And you know,

706
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if you would term it as insular

707
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: or how you would describe it, but what is the

708
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: Wisconsin hunting culture defined? And then how did how do

709
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: people there look upon wolves? It's truly um, I think

710
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that, as we always do fall too.

711
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: It runs a gamut. Um. I can I can call

712
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: a number of people I know and and know that

713
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: they individually do not represent the overall Wisconsin experience, the

714
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: overall um image we might have of Wisconsin hunters. UM.

715
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: I know the wolf especially, I can think, Um, you

716
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: get what was in. But I found one of the

717
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: things I found interesting about this this particular hunt we had,

718
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, was two weeks ago already was that. Um,

719
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: you saw a real divide between trappers, fur trappers and

720
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: and the hound hunters versus also the guys who are

721
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be calling wolves or else putting out like

722
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: sitting over a carcass. Every might be out in the

723
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: woods and waiting for him. And so there was some

724
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: real friction between especially the trappers and the hound hunters.

725
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: We have a really strong hound hunting subculture in Wisconsin.

726
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: You know, the guys that hunt bears. They there's guys

727
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: that hunt over bait, and there's guys that hunt with hounds.

728
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: And we've always had regulate the bear season separately. Basically

729
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: were one year reopened the hound hunting first, and when

730
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: next year reopened, the bait sitters next first, so and

731
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: then go back and forth and the wolf the wolf

732
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: season wolf hunting tradition in our state is so short,

733
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: so I'm young. We really haven't gotten everything figured out yet.

734
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: And so this this thing the way, the way it

735
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: blew up on fairly short notice without real in depth planning, Um,

736
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 1: it was almost yeah, it was almost predictable, Like I

737
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: were about one of my columns that's something like this

738
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: would happen we're just got things did not go off well,

739
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: we're not regularly right, and now we have a black eye. Yeah,

740
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: and you'd like to think I want to kind of

741
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: maybe start in the beginning here and give people the

742
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: full the full perspective, but you know, maybe starting at

743
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: the end you end up with the arguments or reasoning

744
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: we quite often use for predator hunting in our space

745
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: that I think you and I would agree on. You know,

746
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: hunting is a management tool at the Behasta State Game

747
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: agencies and biologists and people that we have entrusted v

748
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: our model of conservation to do the work necessary to

749
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: understand how to manage these populations correctly. This is a

750
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 1: bit of a black eye on that system. Uh, it's

751
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: a bit you know. Would you agree that this doesn't

752
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: look great in in terms of the way it was managed, Well,

753
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: I definitely agree. I am. I wish it weren't so.

754
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: I wish I could act like this is something that

755
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: we can just um learn from and live from, learning experience,

756
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: move on. But I I don't think it's gonna be

757
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: that easy. I think we're gonna have this thrown back

758
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: at us a lot. Even though I've written, you know,

759
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: I went back this morning before you and I talked.

760
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: And I've been writing a newspaper column in Wisconsin since

761
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: and I'll always brag about the fact in that time,

762
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: I've never missed a week yet I've I've produced a

763
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: column every week. Just in the past twenty years, I've

764
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: written at least thirty five columns weekly columns on wolves,

765
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: wolf regulations, wolf coming in and on and on again,

766
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: off again with the endangered species listing. And so we

767
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: have all this history with wolves yet hunting them as

768
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: really we're still learning it, we're still developing it. And

769
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: this last one we can get in all the details.

770
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: But you know, the last one we had, it came

771
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: on pretty quickly. We um the d n R set

772
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: of quota of two hundred. But then um, they have

773
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 1: we have to share that in Wisconsin by treaty regulations.

774
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: You know, these are a court ordered the Federal Court

775
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: decisions that we cannot just um managed wolves or deer

776
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: or bears up north however you want. We gotta do

777
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: it basically in collaboration with our Jibwe nation, the Chippewa people.

778
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: And so they basically took that quote to them of

779
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: two hundred and gave the Chippewa eighty nine of that

780
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: based on UM the wolf population off the reservation areas.

781
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: So it's kind of complicated, but basically came down to

782
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: I think it was a nine wolves for the for

783
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: the Chippewa people and then the rest for US hundred

784
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: nineteen for UM for UM for eighty one for the

785
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: Chippewa for the non tribal people, and went from there. Well,

786
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: as it turns out, re shot, you know, two hundred.

787
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: I think that the final was too sixteen wolves, so

788
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: way over our our quota of nineteen. And you can't

789
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: just act like that doesn't matter that we can just

790
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: take a Chippawa didn't use because they don't use theirs

791
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: that they use theirs to protect the wolf because in

792
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: their culture in Wisconsin, it's considered UM the wolves considered

793
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: their brother among our tribal people, whereas UM, I think

794
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: it's I think it's a navajole out west where they

795
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: don't have the wolf. They don't hold the wolf in

796
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: that kind of regard. You know, they were more of UM.

797
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: I think shepherds and had sheeps. They weren't hurting. I

798
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: guess they had heard of something they took care of

799
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: and the wolves would prey on them. So they had

800
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: a different perspective. But Wisconsin, this is what we have

801
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: and we we overshot that. And now, um, what I

802
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: find frustrating is that the first three years we had

803
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: this season, back in two thousand twelve, two thousand thirteen,

804
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: and two thousand and four teen, we did a really

805
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: good job as staying within our QUOTEA. We only we're

806
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 1: off by I think two point one percent. Overall, we

807
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 1: went over a little bit, really shut things down quickly

808
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 1: controlled it didn't have these problems with this time. Um,

809
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: it's a different situation and the politics were different and

810
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 1: it ended up were Now we have this black guy

811
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: we have to deal with on illegal front. I think

812
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: I'm sure that Chippewa are going to just let let

813
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 1: us go by. They'll they'll find they'll have to find

814
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: some way to get their their compensation for it. Yeah. Yeah,

815
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: it's It's one of those I think with with a

816
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: lot of these situations, A grizzly bear in the Greater

817
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 1: Yale so ecosystem it had. It is complex. I mean,

818
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: it's not as simple as um, we have what is it,

819
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: a thousand wolves and this is how many we need

820
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: to take off the landscape. You know, we have our

821
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: population um thresholds and we know they are just not

822
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: that sense, not just a numbers game. There's so many

823
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: other things that are involved. Do you I mean, honestly,

824
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: quite honestly, when you start looking at this, you have

825
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: to and you just said this, you have to understand that,

826
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 1: like we we the numbers that are being given by

827
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 1: the state game agencies are so important to hit because

828
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: this is again it's prescriptive. It's not just they didn't

829
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: just come up with this number. It's a prescription for

830
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 1: how to maintain a healthy ecosystem and a healthy wolf population,

831
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: unglip populations, predator prey dynamic, all the things that are

832
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: important for any and cohabitation, all things are important for

833
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: that ecosystem function are baked into that number. And when

834
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 1: you miss it, it's a huge You can't understate how

835
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: big of a deal it is to miss it and

836
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: miss it by that and much um has that felt locally?

837
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: I mean, is it you feel like? Uh? For whatever

838
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: bars people can go into, are a lot of people

839
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: talking about this and hunting camps and and discussing it.

840
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's part of the buzz there. It's been

841
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: a NonStop discussion last last two weeks. And again it

842
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: very it really varies by which group you're talking to.

843
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: But um, I have been really um disappointed by how

844
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: many people just think the quota was because you said

845
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 1: the clue it was two hundred. They think that while

846
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: it was only sixteen over that quota. But that's not

847
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 1: the reality of it. The way this will break down

848
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 1: in our court rulings, the way it will break down

849
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: in the in the I the public opinion, that's not

850
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: gonna fly people. You know, I guess the way I

851
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: look at Ben, I know we're on under a really

852
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: hot issue where people are mad. When I get emails

853
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: and text messages from my non hunting sisters in law

854
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: one of what the hell has happened here? You have

855
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: to go back and explain that, well, yeah, in terms

856
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: of wildlife management, wolf management, this did not hurt that

857
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: this did not deliver a significant low to the wolf

858
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: population in this state. But that's not really what it's

859
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: all about. It's a lot, a lot bigger than that,

860
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,479
Speaker 1: you know, and I I really have a hard time

861
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: when it fits our it fits our narrative to act

862
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: like while we stay within this biological goal. I think, well,

863
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: that's not how it's gonna be determined going going forward. Yeah,

864
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: the social and political dynamics are part of the conservation

865
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: game at this point. Can't discount them. It's not just

866
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: the numbers game. You have to look at were we

867
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: not only were we able to manage the population via

868
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: that overall number, but were we able to manage the

869
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: social and political dynamics that go along with this particular species.

870
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: Because you can't just you can't decouple those things. You

871
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: can't take them apart, can you. I mean, there's no way, no, no,

872
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: I agree, I um, I find it fastening. How in

873
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: some circles this became a political argument too, you know,

874
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: we're you know, and some of that are that you

875
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: see they keep saying things like, um, while we wanted

876
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: to get the season, and now, because the Biden administration

877
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: might walk it back and pull this thing off the

878
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: endangered species put it back on the endangered species list.

879
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: And my the thing I pointed out my column is

880
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: that you go back in time, Ben and when this

881
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: thing was first brought up, when we first tried to

882
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: get wolf de listed in Wisconsin, it was a Clinton

883
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: administration pushing the people run in the Fishing Walife Service,

884
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: that the Secretary of the Interior, of the Secretary of

885
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: the Fishing Walife Service, they were the ones trying to

886
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: push early on to get it off the endangered species

887
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 1: list once you met the goals in the Great Lakes,

888
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: and we met the goals in the Great Lakes about

889
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: over twenty years ago, but still it wasn't until the

890
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: Bush administration got it off the endangered species list in

891
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 1: this region. But then um went back on during court fights,

892
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: and then the An administration put it put it back

893
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 1: out there again, removed the listing. So we had these

894
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: hunts in two thousand and twelve, thirteen four king that

895
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: was during the Obama years. So now so when I

896
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: hear people's act now like this is a liberal versus conservative,

897
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: Republican versus Democrat, I think you don't. You're not being

898
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: fair of the history of this that the rule you know,

899
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: at a federal level of a hard time believing that

900
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: whether it was Clinton, George Bush, Obama or Trump, that

901
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 1: they really had a whole big investment politically and moving

902
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: that thing on or off the endangered species list. Yeah,

903
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: maybe that speaks to the de evolution of our politics,

904
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, or the polar like the extreme polarization of

905
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: where we are. Because if you take this back, you know,

906
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: in the absence of just like boiling it down to

907
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: this situation. You know, if you take this back, you

908
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: go back to October of last year, when then Interior

909
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: Secretar Air Secretary the Interior David Bernhard announced that UM

910
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: the federal government would remove gray wolves from from the

911
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: e es A Endangered Species Act in the lower forty

912
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: eight and he said at the time, after more than

913
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 1: fort or five years as a listed species, the gray

914
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 1: wolf has exceeded exceed all conservation goals for recovery. Today's

915
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: announcement simply reflects that the determination that this species is

916
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: neither a threatened nor endangered species based on specific factors

917
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: Congress has laid out in the law uh AS specifically,

918
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 1: like we I guess what I think about this is wolves,

919
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: you know, they belong in the landscape, and if they're

920
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: they're sustainable numbers. It's not debatable that we should have

921
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: them in our system of hunting, air, system of wildlife conservation.

922
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 1: To me, it's just not a debatable point. But when

923
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 1: it gets tossed into I guess we should start. Let's

924
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: let's just kind of start there and tell everybody the

925
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: story from you know, the Trump administration and Secretary Bernhard

926
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: remove the wolves from the listing. A lot of people

927
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: say it was a campaign initiative to rouse the Republican

928
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: base to move on this. Can you take us, you know,

929
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: from that point, how we get to what do we

930
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: five six months of you know after that? Now we're

931
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: we're rushing through a wolf hunt and looking at the ramifications.

932
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: But can you take us a little bit through the

933
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: history after after that happened? From what I understand, Benum,

934
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 1: the Trumpet Inmistry and the Fisher Walize Service did move

935
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: this a little bit faster than normal, probably because it

936
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: was an election year. They wanted to get it get

937
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: it alter right before the election that they were removing it.

938
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: So it probably didn't make some people happy. I guess.

939
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: I do argue most people that were really had had

940
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: an interest in this, probably had their minds minds me

941
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: of anyway, and where they stood on that issue. But

942
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: so so they removed it. But they probably removed it

943
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: it weren't an election year. They probably we're still within

944
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: a couple of months of doing it. It wasn't like,

945
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: I don't think the Trump administration was going to reverse

946
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: something that the Obama administration it supported, that Clinton supported

947
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: that basically a whole list of administrations that really did

948
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: want want this thing often endangered species list because it

949
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: met the requirements we'd set over twenty years ago in

950
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: this region. But UM, once it was removed, that was

951
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: like late October the announcement came out, and then I

952
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: think it was November three. Is actually put us on

953
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: a timetable by things. December six, Wisconsin d and ARE

954
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: came out with a notice that in their opinion, we

955
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 1: should hold off and not hold our first season until

956
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 1: the following November, the first Saria November, which would have

957
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 1: been nothing November six this fall. UM. Meanwhile, we should

958
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: also point out that this this population of walls in

959
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes, it's basically across the northern tier, northern

960
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: parts of Minnesota, Wisconsin, and the Upper Peninsula Michigan. There's

961
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 1: no as far as then there's no wolves downe in

962
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: the Lord Penninsula. Michigan's all up in the an Upper

963
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 1: Grade Lakes region. But meanwhile, Minnesota showed no move to

964
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: UM stood a season this year in Michigan did not either.

965
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: They both we're kind of holding back, and when we're

966
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: still in Wisconsin now, they're gonna hold one in November.

967
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 1: I think outside of Wisconsin would looked as kind of

968
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: a fairly aggressive announcement that we're gonna have our first

969
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: wolf season within a year of it being de listed.

970
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 1: And I think, um, based on this my knowledge of

971
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: how we've conducted wolf huntson Wisconsin and past and how

972
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: we let up to it, I thought it was a

973
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,919
Speaker 1: prudent move to let's say, we gotta we gotta get

974
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: public hearings, get get getting from the public, discuss this

975
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: thing biologically and socially, get the tribes and fallolved, reconvene

976
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: our wolf committees, we have the citizen involvement. It really

977
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: make sure we think this through carefully and see what's changed,

978
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: you know, in the last seven or eight years since

979
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 1: we last had a wolf season. Because the one thing

980
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: we know of something like wolves and then something coming

981
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: off the endangered species list, I would just think it'd

982
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: be real prudent to proceed carefully. There's Noah rush um

983
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: let This thing, as I always keep saying, played a

984
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: long game. There's you know it won't be our last chance.

985
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: That if you do it right, this won't be our

986
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: last chance. Let's just take your time with this. But

987
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: that didn't happen. The politics got involved, and one of

988
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: the really I think um interesting nuances of Wisconsin situation

989
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: is when wolves would do list it back around I

990
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: think around two thousand and nine, two thousand eleven, so

991
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: I his court battles. Well, when they came off the

992
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: list in two thousand eleven, one of our lawmakers quickly

993
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: passed a law with the number three or four months

994
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: to put the all season and make it part of

995
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 1: the state statute. And you know, we don't have We

996
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: don't set our turkey season, our rabbit season, squirrel season,

997
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: waterfall seasons by statute. We sell them, but we set

998
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:17,240
Speaker 1: up by ministrative rule where the Wildlife agency dictates the rules.

999
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: The legislature takes a final look at it. But overall

1000
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: the Wisconsin dne our works for citizens groups to kind

1001
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: of come up with the framework and the laws that

1002
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: will will govern it by and then then we proceed

1003
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: from there. Well, this one was put in the state statute,

1004
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: so technically when this thing was when wolves came off

1005
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: the endangered species less back in the fall. Well, um,

1006
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: some of the groups pushed quit, bring it back right,

1007
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: bring the hunt back right away. And we saw what

1008
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: happened when we did that, because I think things I

1009
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 1: think some of the things that happened in this season

1010
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: would not have happened, would not I've rolled out to

1011
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,760
Speaker 1: what they did if we're taken a more calm, deliberate

1012
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: approach to it. Yeah, And that's I mean, when when

1013
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: this first came out, Um, when when that delisting occurred,

1014
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 1: Wisconsin dn R was was basically saying that from the beginning.

1015
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: There's a quote from from right when this d listing

1016
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: happened where they they suggest, well they would soon resume

1017
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: the honey seasons like they had in and the quote

1018
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 1: is the Wisconsin Department and Natural Resources welcomes the responsibility

1019
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: of again managing wolves in Wisconsin. The Department has successfully

1020
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: done so for decades and will continue to follow the

1021
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: science and laws that influence our management. All wolf management,

1022
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: including hunting, will be conducted in a transparent and deliberative

1023
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: key term deliberative process in which public and tribal participation

1024
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: will be encouraged. And so this is uh. Again, there's

1025
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: a lot of nuance here. This is a situation where

1026
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 1: you and I would probably agree on the hunt being

1027
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: conducted right. We're we're happy that for the D listing.

1028
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: We feel like that's the right thing to do here.

1029
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: But that you step to like, how do we implement

1030
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 1: this hunt? And that's where things fall apart. And are

1031
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 1: you familiar with this group Hunter Nation on what they

1032
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: did here until until they popped up in this lawsuit UM,

1033
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: which basically they filled a lawsuit to force the Dean

1034
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: are to open the season before the end of February

1035
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: and a judge in Jefferson County. I think it's from

1036
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: those little ironies you get wagg into the nuance. I

1037
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: think when the when the ironies of this whole thing

1038
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: with the lawsuit was at I think people like me

1039
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: UM have always said, we don't like it when outside

1040
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: groups sue to bring to to stop wolf's wolf hunto

1041
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: wolf management. We really don't like it when UM these

1042
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: different environmental groups sue to get to get these kind

1043
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: of protections on wolves and shut down any effort that

1044
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: for state management. We resent that. But yeah, here was

1045
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: a case where a group comes in from while they're

1046
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: based in Kansas, but one of their main people. I

1047
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: think their presidents based it lives in Wisconsin, but then

1048
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: they take it into court in southern Wisconsin, which is

1049
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: not wolf country, and get this lawsuit to say that

1050
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, the judge says you, by law, Wisconsin

1051
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: has to hold a wolf hunt before the end of

1052
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: February because that's what's in your state law. And I

1053
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: think technically you're right, but you know, it's kind of

1054
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: a UM, I thought it was kind of when these

1055
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure there was. I can't prove it, Ben, but

1056
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure they charged their judge carefully. Would I would

1057
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: imagine so a Hunter Nation if folks don't know. And

1058
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to get this wrong, but well, the

1059
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: specific guy that you're talking about here is the guy

1060
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: that runs Hunter Nation. And I'm gonna look this up

1061
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: while we're talking so I get this right. But this

1062
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: gentleman was formally formally um, let's look him up here.

1063
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: Luke hill Hilligman is the CEO of Hunter a shan Um,

1064
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 1: and prior to working there, he was the chief executive

1065
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 1: author of American Americans for Prosperity, which is basically a

1066
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: Coke Brothers pack and the and when you look at

1067
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: what Hunter Nation is really it's kind of a It

1068
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: seems like a right wing advocacy group within the hunting space.

1069
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: Um they have they do a lot of things that

1070
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: I agree with in fact, but they have a strong

1071
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: position on the EESA and it's and its reform. It

1072
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: says on their website Hunter Nations supports major Endangered Species

1073
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: Act reform. The s A has become the favorite tool

1074
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: of anti hunting groups to take wildlife and habitat restoration

1075
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: efforts away from the state and fish and game agencies

1076
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: to the significant detriment of hunters and sportsmen and hunting

1077
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: groups used. The Endangered Species Act has a weapon tying

1078
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: decision making up in the courts to the detriment of

1079
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: animals and habitat. It goes on and on. But you

1080
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: can pick up the drift here and then you get

1081
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: into this very a ironic happening in this case, and

1082
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: I guess. But before we get to that, I want

1083
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: to read to you there uh press release when they

1084
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 1: won this lawsuit in Wisconsin, they said this week Hunter Nation,

1085
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: along with the Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty, won

1086
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: our lawsuit against By the way, I love the way

1087
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: these things are always named They're named in the most

1088
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: pandering way, wisconsinant Institute for Law and Liberty. It's just

1089
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: like the Wisconsin Institute for Kitties and ice Cream. Who

1090
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: could be against law and liberty? Uh. They won our

1091
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 1: lawsuit against the Wisconsin depart of Natural Resources for ignoring

1092
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: a state law requirement to schedule a wolf hunt this winner.

1093
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: A Jefferson County Circuit court found that the Wisconsin DNR

1094
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 1: violated state law by refusing to schedule a winner one

1095
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: gray wolf hunt when the wolf was delisted from the

1096
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act on January four one. This is a

1097
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: historic victory for Wisconsin hunters and are constitutionally protected right

1098
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: to hunt and manage our wildlife here in Wisconsin. The

1099
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: ruling finally provides clear direction to the administration in Wisconsin

1100
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 1: to move full speed ahead with our statutorily required wolf hunt. Um,

1101
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 1: and it go of course, it goes on. But let

1102
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 1: me just point out the irony here and see what

1103
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: you think. The irony here is that the anti hunter,

1104
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: according to Hunter Nation, is using the Endangered Speakies Act

1105
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 1: as a cudgel with which to beat the hunting and

1106
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: conservation world right there, using it as a way to

1107
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: stop hunting right, and this is widely documented with wolves

1108
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 1: and grizzly bears in the like. So what happens here

1109
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 1: is a pro hunting group that believes in this, this

1110
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: idea that the e s as being used by the

1111
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: people on the other side, rushes through a hunt to

1112
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 1: make sure that that the s A isn't turned over

1113
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 1: by the Biden administration. They rushed through this hunt, and

1114
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:00,120
Speaker 1: now the hunt itself is a mess, and they have

1115
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: provided an even bigger cudgel for anti Hunderson now beat

1116
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: us with is that they have basically done the opposite

1117
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 1: of what they are attempting to do and what their

1118
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: mission states in terms of the Dangerous Species Act. I

1119
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 1: know that's a complicated web with which to weave, but

1120
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 1: that sound about right. I don't think it's a lot complicated.

1121
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 1: I think it's um this really. If you're designing a

1122
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 1: way to to um provide an argument in court that

1123
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 1: we cannot provide scientific management of our wolf population in Wisconsin,

1124
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 1: well we just we just did. We just created a

1125
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: huge talking point. And but I can I can also

1126
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: argue that if this had had been left up just

1127
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: a biologists and wildlife managers and our hunter groups that

1128
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: are Actually we have a hunter hunter organization Wisconsin called

1129
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 1: the Wisconsin Conservation Congress, which is basically five guys, five

1130
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: people elected by publicly elected to represent hunting interest in

1131
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 1: each counting the state. If we've been left it up

1132
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 1: to that group, which is our traditional way of handling things,

1133
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: this wouldn't have happened. UM. So now we have the

1134
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: situation though where every time I read about UM, I'd

1135
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: say a nationally articles, nationally written article, for like when

1136
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 1: the national media of those New York Times or the

1137
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: ganet chain that has Milwaukee Journal in it, various associated press,

1138
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 1: they read those articles and they always almost always now

1139
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 1: have UH spokesman from the Human Society United States, various

1140
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 1: anti hunting groups UM. These UM well, like the basically

1141
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: I called this the Earth first type groups all bashing

1142
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 1: away at this UM hunting season the way it was

1143
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: carried out. So now we have that where this was

1144
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: not scientifically designed, the way this thing was was was

1145
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: enacted to get into this in the nuance of Wisconsin politics.

1146
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: And we have a seven citizen Natural Resources Board that

1147
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 1: sets policy for our wildlife agency, the Department Natural Resources.

1148
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: Well during the run up to the season, when it

1149
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: was dictated by course that we hold a season. One

1150
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: of the one of the boards members basically set um

1151
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 1: the directive to issue twenty times the quota for permits

1152
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 1: hunting permits, and that was doubling the standard. Before we're

1153
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: in the first three seasons, Wisconsin issued ten times the

1154
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 1: quota to get that harvest. Well, this time he went

1155
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: for twenty times, and I ran the numbers on basically

1156
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: when you get down how many permits were sold for

1157
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: each wolf season we've had all four wolf seasons. In

1158
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 1: the first three when I actually came time to buy

1159
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 1: buy hunting permits, we sold about seven permits for each

1160
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: wolf in the quota. This time we sold over thirteen

1161
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 1: permits for each wolf in that in that quota. So

1162
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: we effectively doubled the hunting pressure compared to the first

1163
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 1: three seasons. And there are a thing that that changed

1164
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: a lot from seven or eight years ago. Is that

1165
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 1: seven or eight years ago in Wisconsin? I think I

1166
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: don't think. Yeah. We did not start registering dear for example,

1167
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: by by phone or computer until two thousand and fifteen,

1168
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:28,919
Speaker 1: and so like when we last had a wolf hunt,

1169
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: it was still um showing up somewhere getting it registered

1170
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 1: and doing it that way. Well, now this season we

1171
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: could do it by by phone and computer, but yet

1172
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: we stuck with the old twenty four hour timetable for

1173
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: registering the wolf. So as a result, we ended up

1174
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 1: um almost extending the day a full day of hunting

1175
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 1: and trapping for wolves during this past season two weeks ago,

1176
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 1: and we did the first three years. So it was

1177
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: there's so much nuanced in this that given the UM,

1178
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 1: the way things were laid off this year, at the delisting,

1179
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: the hold run up to this fall, you really have

1180
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: a hard time looking at this and saying this was

1181
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 1: a scientifically driven model that we need to be followed. Yeah,

1182
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: and that's that's it. I mean Wisconsin was unable to

1183
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 1: whether you know this was forced by this this judge

1184
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 1: and this Hunter Nation lawsuit or not really unable to

1185
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 1: manage this UM. And that is that that is I

1186
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: can't you can't overstate the like how big a black

1187
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 1: eye this is for the argument against the anti hunting crowd.

1188
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: H you just can under underestimate. I mean, like you said,

1189
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 1: on on a on a smaller level, on a micro level,

1190
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: those two factors stand out, and you said this in

1191
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 1: your article, I think that that allotted like the DNR

1192
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: allotted a record percentage of kill permits, like you just mentioned.

1193
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 1: And then they gave light solars twenty four hours to

1194
01:06:54,800 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 1: register their kill by phone. Well, of course, like of course, um,

1195
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be able to get a count. And

1196
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 1: this was what a three day ended up being a

1197
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: two or three day hunt? Three day hunt? Right, so

1198
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: you have a three day hunt. Well, let's say I'm

1199
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 1: a guy in uh righting for the New York Times,

1200
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: which I would never be, but let's say I was,

1201
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: and I don't know much about this. It is incredibly easy.

1202
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,920
Speaker 1: The headline rights itself, right, Let's just say then I

1203
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 1: take it a little bit further. I'm I'm a pr

1204
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 1: person for Peter. The headline there rights itself even easier.

1205
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 1: Bloodthirsty hunters, you know, slaughter wolves in two day Uh

1206
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: you know, free for all. That's not managed. You know,

1207
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 1: it's it's not regulated. And and a lot of wolves

1208
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,400
Speaker 1: died that didn't need to or weren't supposed to be

1209
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 1: based on the allotment in the science. And I mean

1210
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: that is I mean, like I said, we've handed them

1211
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 1: the bat with which to hit us with. Here, Um,

1212
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,920
Speaker 1: you left out the part about trophy hunter. They really,

1213
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 1: Oh I forgot a about that. Yeah, must. Every time

1214
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 1: I saw anyone quota from let's just see across the aisle,

1215
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 1: they always um marked this as a trophy hunt. And

1216
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 1: that's just standard procedure. Now, when you want to you

1217
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: want to make see something bit of a hunting, you

1218
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 1: put it down as a trophy hunt. Yeah. And this

1219
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 1: would have worked though if we would you think if

1220
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 1: we were a wind time and the DNR would have

1221
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 1: gotten its away, they would have said, let's let's be

1222
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:32,759
Speaker 1: transparent and deliberate, Let's make sure we bring in tribal leaders,

1223
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 1: Let's make sure we really think this through. Let's hold

1224
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 1: the hunt, say next winner or you know, at some

1225
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,639
Speaker 1: time where it makes sense where obviously it doesn't compete

1226
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 1: with other hunting seasons, and we can do it in

1227
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:50,759
Speaker 1: a transparent and very safe and you know scientific way. Um.

1228
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: And they would have done what they did in the

1229
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 1: past seasons, which was hit the number by three or

1230
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: four wolves. You know, they would have been two, three

1231
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: or four wolves over. This would have been a huge

1232
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 1: point of celebration for those of us that believe in

1233
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:07,639
Speaker 1: our model of conservation. Yeah, you talk about a point swing.

1234
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 1: This this was it. We could have gone into the

1235
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 1: people just going ahead and laid out a real deliberative approach,

1236
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: set up a season in November, tweaked some of the

1237
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 1: things we knew we're going to change from from this

1238
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 1: year and seven years before then ruled the season out

1239
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 1: the way it had in the past, where you know,

1240
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: we we should we should probably talk about the fact

1241
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:34,719
Speaker 1: that in past seasons, UM this season wolf season started

1242
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 1: with hunting, just hunting with calls, hunting over a carcass,

1243
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,799
Speaker 1: you know, and some kind of wolf bait, girl's trapping.

1244
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 1: And so we had our first three years ran anywhere

1245
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: from like about um forty two days to maybe fifty

1246
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,639
Speaker 1: eight days or something. It was really a long rollout,

1247
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 1: and we don't know, we do not allow hunting with

1248
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 1: hounds for wolves until to our gun deer season ends

1249
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 1: in late November. So the first first year we didn't

1250
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to use hollands for hunting, and then

1251
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 1: the next two years, by time UM hounds were allowed,

1252
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 1: UM much of the season really closed down because the

1253
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: trappers had gotten the trappers dominated those first three years,

1254
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 1: and then this time around it was just the opposite

1255
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:26,560
Speaker 1: we had of the harvest tuisco coming through on the

1256
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,519
Speaker 1: use of hollands and only five percent from trapping, and

1257
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 1: that gets in the nuance to that um. Yeah. You know.

1258
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 1: One thing I wanted to say too about the whole

1259
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 1: way way media covers this is that we cannot expect

1260
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:47,280
Speaker 1: non hunters, which is like our population, to understand the

1261
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:51,880
Speaker 1: nuance of hunting regulations. It's just our hunting regulations tend

1262
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 1: to be pretty involved, um, so for them to understand

1263
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 1: the difference between hunting with with halls, trapping with um

1264
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 1: like foothold traps, and hunting wolves of the hounds, these

1265
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 1: are such different practices that hunters are pretty well aware

1266
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 1: of them. But even then it's um. Holl And hunting

1267
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 1: is not something a lot of a lot of hunters

1268
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: have any direct experience with. There's so much nuance here

1269
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:21,640
Speaker 1: that can be so easily distorted and used in the

1270
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 1: wrong way against us that it was just I keep thinking,

1271
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:29,760
Speaker 1: just what a wasted opportunity this was by letting this

1272
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: go forward, where now give us some block guys to

1273
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 1: the the great um example of what we could have achieved. Yeah, really,

1274
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:40,880
Speaker 1: I mean, if you, if you and going back to

1275
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:42,919
Speaker 1: what you said. There was an article on March three

1276
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:46,600
Speaker 1: in the New York Times. Um, it's not by me,

1277
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 1: that's weird, Maria, Maria Kramer or Cramer. And it just

1278
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 1: starts out by stating the facts, but then, as you said,

1279
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:58,400
Speaker 1: quickly moves into doesn't take a whole lot of time

1280
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 1: to move right into that humane society United States quote.

1281
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: So I'll read you a little bit of it said,

1282
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 1: Hunters in Wisconsin killed more than two hundred wolves this

1283
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 1: last week, far exceeding the state's limit as they scrambled

1284
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 1: to take advantage of trump ara wildlife rules that they

1285
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:15,639
Speaker 1: worry maybe tightened by the Biden administration. So start start

1286
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 1: out by the lead, as we call it in the business,

1287
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 1: like the lead of this article. The thesis of this

1288
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:24,840
Speaker 1: article already begins in this kind of political muck. It

1289
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: begins with this this, It connects, it does, it does,

1290
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:31,719
Speaker 1: takes no time in connecting hunters to the Trump era

1291
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,719
Speaker 1: and hunters to right wing politics, and it quickly moves

1292
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 1: into the left wing opposition. At least two sixteen wolves

1293
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:42,599
Speaker 1: were killed in less than sixty hours, exceeding the quota

1294
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:45,680
Speaker 1: of a hundred nineteen and prompting Wisconsin to end what

1295
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 1: was meant to be a one week hunt four days early.

1296
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 1: Now it doesn't go anywhere in this into the nuance

1297
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,759
Speaker 1: of the actual number of one nineteen or anything like that. Again,

1298
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: it's too easy for somebody for Maria to start out

1299
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 1: this way. She does get into the details later on,

1300
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: but it's it's I mean, people stop reading, so it

1301
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:07,640
Speaker 1: says environment Environmentalists who fought unsuccessfully in state court to

1302
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,639
Speaker 1: stop the hunt said the killings that occurred during breeding season,

1303
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:13,360
Speaker 1: when gray wolves are especially vulnerable. They said the large

1304
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 1: number of wolves killed in such a short time underscored

1305
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 1: the need for President Biden to put the gray wolf

1306
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:21,200
Speaker 1: back on the list of the animals protected under the

1307
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act. So for everyone that was trying to

1308
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: um tout delisting of wolves is a good thing. You

1309
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 1: have now given uh the h s u S an

1310
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:37,240
Speaker 1: opportunity to say you were wrong, and in this case, um,

1311
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: they're not all that far off. They said. These animals

1312
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,040
Speaker 1: were killed using packs of dogs, snares, and leghold traps.

1313
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 1: Kitty Block, chief executive the Humane Society of the United States,

1314
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 1: said on Tuesday it was a race to kill these

1315
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:56,719
Speaker 1: animals in the most cruel ways. Yeah there. And meanwhile,

1316
01:13:57,760 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that I found in

1317
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 1: Trusted by by Coinstance, I had UM interviewed a woman

1318
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: UM at February six and she's a she's a huge trapper,

1319
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 1: really gifted trapper. And she had said back in February six,

1320
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:20,880
Speaker 1: this is like two and a half weeks before the

1321
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:24,400
Speaker 1: season unfolded, that if this season goes forward, she says,

1322
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 1: I'll be lucky if I can check my traps in

1323
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:30,719
Speaker 1: two days, because for two days that the season probably

1324
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 1: over with him two days because she just knew that. Um.

1325
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 1: You know, when you get when you get um hounds

1326
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:42,280
Speaker 1: out there hunting. But if you have good tracking snow

1327
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,680
Speaker 1: we have really good We have a good number of

1328
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 1: people states who enjoy hunting bears, enjoy hunting podcats, and

1329
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 1: counties with the hounds. Personally, I have a real hard

1330
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: time criticizing houndsman, because I think if I were in

1331
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: the hounds, I'd be in the same thing. I love it. Yeah,

1332
01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:04,519
Speaker 1: I think I don't do it, but I love it.

1333
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 1: I think the sound of hounds baying, whether it's whether

1334
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 1: they're baying those beagles being on rabbits or or or

1335
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:16,799
Speaker 1: hounds baying on raccoons. I think that I think it's exciting.

1336
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 1: As how I'm I cannot sit there and act like

1337
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: we shall be saying, well, it's okay to hunt raccoons,

1338
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,719
Speaker 1: the hounds are so okay to hunt rabbits with beagles,

1339
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: but damn, we can't do this on bears and and

1340
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:32,080
Speaker 1: and and wolves or bobcats. So I have a hard

1341
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 1: time with that one. I'm kind of rambling now a

1342
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 1: little bit. But um, I just found that when when

1343
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 1: this thing was being planned, a lot of trappers we're

1344
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:49,600
Speaker 1: not planning to take part in February because they're trappers

1345
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 1: tend to be more much more tuned into the fur,

1346
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 1: the fur quality and everything I was hearing from the

1347
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:58,280
Speaker 1: trappers in Wisconsin. The guys I know was there going

1348
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:00,120
Speaker 1: to pass up the chance and just go ahead and

1349
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 1: by apply for um a preference point for the fall

1350
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,880
Speaker 1: hunt and let the homes being have have their season

1351
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 1: to kind of just take a pass on this because

1352
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 1: they knew that basically that the for the for the

1353
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 1: fur quality for a wolf peaks in December and then

1354
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:19,479
Speaker 1: so it's going downhill and by late February it is

1355
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 1: not a high quality pelt anymore it's getting matted, the

1356
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:25,879
Speaker 1: under first kind of getting loose, all that kind of stuff.

1357
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 1: So they were kind of taking a pass anyway. But

1358
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 1: still when you when you saw the kind of numbers

1359
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:34,840
Speaker 1: were talking about for how many permits to be pushed

1360
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 1: out there, how many hunters can be pushed out there,

1361
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:41,439
Speaker 1: the people who are like tuned into this, we're predicting

1362
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:44,760
Speaker 1: before the hunt started that this is not gonna go well,

1363
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:49,679
Speaker 1: just gonna be a well cluster, you know, the cluster

1364
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:55,680
Speaker 1: f And it sure was yeah, yeah, and it I mean,

1365
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:57,679
Speaker 1: there's this is this thing. There's so much baked into

1366
01:16:57,720 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: this too. But you just, like I said, you just

1367
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:03,200
Speaker 1: know what what it's gonna look like. Um And and look,

1368
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 1: I don't disagree. I mean, if you look at some

1369
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: of the language around some of the climate change legislation

1370
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 1: that President Biden had in the works, and and Hunter

1371
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 1: Nation points this out and I'm not saying I disagree

1372
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 1: with it, that that the worry was that the d

1373
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:21,759
Speaker 1: n R was going to delay this and then anti

1374
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,760
Speaker 1: hunting and animal race groups would get in and then

1375
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:27,400
Speaker 1: canceled the hunt. Right so by the time the hunt

1376
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:30,679
Speaker 1: would take place, they would just throw the political football

1377
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:33,599
Speaker 1: back across the field and in the hunt would take place.

1378
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 1: But that I think just underscores the danger of making

1379
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 1: these decisions based on these political agendas, making wolf hunting

1380
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:45,360
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin and political football to throw back and forth

1381
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,640
Speaker 1: during a camp during a presidential campaign and then you

1382
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 1: know close following afterwards, UM, turning these things into not

1383
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:58,760
Speaker 1: very deliberate and and and very thought out, um ecological

1384
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:03,560
Speaker 1: and biological benefits to these populations as we as you know,

1385
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 1: Shane Mahoney was here. You might say it that way

1386
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:10,639
Speaker 1: if it's eloquently than that, but UM, turning this into

1387
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 1: political football has led to where we are. You know,

1388
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:15,719
Speaker 1: do you think there's any way to turn that off

1389
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:18,000
Speaker 1: in any way to just try to find a way

1390
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 1: to manage wolves and other I would say, like controversial

1391
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,680
Speaker 1: species on the landscape in a way. Sage grouse are

1392
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,599
Speaker 1: also this way, It doesn't have to be a predator. Um.

1393
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,599
Speaker 1: Is there a way to turn this off or at

1394
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:36,800
Speaker 1: the very least guard against this type of manipulation of

1395
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:40,519
Speaker 1: what should have been a very scientific conservation decision. Yeah,

1396
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 1: you know you would hope that UM this because this

1397
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 1: will you know, there's two core cases alter already before

1398
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 1: the before this even happened that they're fighting the the

1399
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:54,519
Speaker 1: um the delisting, so you know it's gonna end up

1400
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:56,280
Speaker 1: in court in front of a judge at some point.

1401
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:01,799
Speaker 1: And I still think UM lawyers, a good smart lawyer

1402
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 1: with some good wildlife managers helping him out and designed

1403
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 1: the case, can still make a very strong argument that um, hey,

1404
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:14,479
Speaker 1: look we know what we're doing. We've proven this in

1405
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:17,600
Speaker 1: the past. This is not a good example of what

1406
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 1: we're capable of. And here's here's what we have done

1407
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 1: the past, and done it very well, not just Wisconsin,

1408
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,759
Speaker 1: but also Minnesota in Michigan when they had their seasons.

1409
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:30,599
Speaker 1: So we still have an overall strong, very strong record

1410
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 1: for controlling the wolf harvest and getting really basically rolling

1411
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 1: it out again the next time in a real responsible matter.

1412
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:43,160
Speaker 1: But so this was really the outlier. This this season

1413
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:47,280
Speaker 1: here was nothing like anything else we've seen before, and

1414
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:52,000
Speaker 1: unfortunately the way it came out so fast that the

1415
01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 1: people we were really counting on to bring some sanity

1416
01:19:56,080 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 1: to the process. In my column, I criticized to our

1417
01:20:00,479 --> 01:20:03,879
Speaker 1: our top breast and our our own department Natural Resources

1418
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 1: because I thought this was you should have spoken up

1419
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:10,080
Speaker 1: why you could and once once this thing has passed.

1420
01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 1: You can't just go back and rewrite things. You sat

1421
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:16,719
Speaker 1: there mute while they were debating some of these questions

1422
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 1: like how many promised to put out there to not

1423
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:22,720
Speaker 1: say a word, and that was that really, um will

1424
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:25,640
Speaker 1: hurt our case when it comes to why didn't you

1425
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:29,559
Speaker 1: speak up? And so to answer your question, Ben, I

1426
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:31,720
Speaker 1: think we can still make a good argument, but we

1427
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 1: sure didn't make it easy. Now we really have to

1428
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:37,439
Speaker 1: argue from behind. Yeah, you do. And this is such

1429
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 1: a critical point, and I mean, I don't know there's

1430
01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:43,960
Speaker 1: there's a point that this this will ever calm down,

1431
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 1: like the boiling point will be taken down. But this

1432
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 1: this is with a new administration, you know. And we've

1433
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 1: seen these We've seen these political footballs go back and

1434
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 1: forth before to the detriment of what we're talking about.

1435
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:59,160
Speaker 1: And this happened with granted staircase Escalante and bears the years,

1436
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:01,880
Speaker 1: to the detriment of the landscape and in this case

1437
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 1: a species and it's overall conservation efforts. Anytime these things

1438
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:09,400
Speaker 1: become these political footballs, it's to the detriment to the

1439
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 1: people on the ground. It never works out for the

1440
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 1: people managing the landscapes or managing the wildlife. It just

1441
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 1: never does. And um, it's hard to understand, you know,

1442
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 1: connecting the macro and the micro um and it takes

1443
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 1: I think, good writing and good journalism as you've done

1444
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:29,400
Speaker 1: to really make those connections. How is this now going

1445
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 1: to be harder going forward to the people that so

1446
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 1: enjoyed this hunt, you know, because it's okay to enjoy

1447
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 1: a wolf hunt. I don't have a problem with somebody

1448
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 1: showing the wolves that they killed on social media or

1449
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 1: talking about it. But again, everyone needs to understand that

1450
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:48,519
Speaker 1: we're we're in a very political and very socially charged

1451
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 1: environment and everything we do has to be grounded in

1452
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,360
Speaker 1: the things we say we're for. You know, that's a

1453
01:21:56,400 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 1: tough one. I don't think you and I've talked about,

1454
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:05,840
Speaker 1: but I know I've. It's been part of my UM

1455
01:22:06,320 --> 01:22:10,280
Speaker 1: career basically going back in the early eighties that I've

1456
01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 1: always been fascinated by the fact that you can show, um,

1457
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 1: a person holding a deer nice buck, um, or a

1458
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:21,960
Speaker 1: person holding up a couple of geese, say shot whatever

1459
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:24,840
Speaker 1: it might be. But why I remember in my newspaper

1460
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:27,360
Speaker 1: days back in the mid eighties, the first time I

1461
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 1: showed a guy holding up a coyote or holding by

1462
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:33,920
Speaker 1: red fox by its high and legs um for a

1463
01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 1: winter predator hunt. God, people just called freaking nuts. And

1464
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:43,360
Speaker 1: there's something about shooting a canaid that really does not

1465
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 1: sell with a lot of people. And that's not I

1466
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:52,400
Speaker 1: don't think we can ever, um quote unquote educate people

1467
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:55,080
Speaker 1: out of that. I think it's something that just in

1468
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:59,560
Speaker 1: us as humans that um a lot of people really identify,

1469
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:03,840
Speaker 1: um something that that resembles what runs around their house.

1470
01:23:04,479 --> 01:23:07,080
Speaker 1: I think that's why we have problems with moultinlined hunts,

1471
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:09,800
Speaker 1: and why we have problems with with wolf hunts and

1472
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:12,960
Speaker 1: and and coyote hunts. It's just always something that people

1473
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:17,120
Speaker 1: just so many people are so connected to those those animals.

1474
01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 1: So it's it's tough stuff when you get into the

1475
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:25,519
Speaker 1: emotional side of of these arguments. Yeah, it's really like

1476
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:28,720
Speaker 1: you said, it's it's an emotional topic for people, and

1477
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,719
Speaker 1: and that's not something we can we can discount as hunters.

1478
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 1: We can't say, well, don't get emotional about this. You

1479
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 1: know facts, don't care about your feelings. You're never gonna

1480
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:39,639
Speaker 1: get if you start talking like that, You're never gonna

1481
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 1: get anywhere. Um, you're just gonna create a wall between

1482
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,720
Speaker 1: you and the person who you'd like to understand you. Um,

1483
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 1: and that's where and I think this, this situation is

1484
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:51,120
Speaker 1: certainly put up a larger barrier. I mean, we certainly

1485
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:53,320
Speaker 1: can stand behind that barrier and say how great it

1486
01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:56,600
Speaker 1: is that there's two hundred less wolves and that's going

1487
01:23:56,640 --> 01:24:01,280
Speaker 1: to help overall population dynamics, and that, uh, we're celebrating

1488
01:24:01,439 --> 01:24:04,439
Speaker 1: you know, traditional way methods to take like hound hunting

1489
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:06,760
Speaker 1: and other things. We can say all those things, and

1490
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:10,280
Speaker 1: we're probably right. But at the end of the day, Um,

1491
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:12,680
Speaker 1: it only matters what people think about it, you know,

1492
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 1: and only really and as we've seen with this, it

1493
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:18,280
Speaker 1: really only matters what society at large thinks is good

1494
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:22,200
Speaker 1: or bad. And and that's if we get off that track,

1495
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:25,200
Speaker 1: then you come you're just arguing with yourself or you're

1496
01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:29,120
Speaker 1: congratulating yourself and everybody else over there. New York Times

1497
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:31,920
Speaker 1: Land and New York Times has been known to write

1498
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 1: about hipster hunters and the field of table movement. They've

1499
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:37,400
Speaker 1: been known to write about you know, cou you putting

1500
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:39,559
Speaker 1: sheet back on the mountain like that. It's not that

1501
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:44,320
Speaker 1: they're completely against highlighting what's positive here, UM, but they'll

1502
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 1: certainly jump all over it when the negative like this perpetuate.

1503
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:53,280
Speaker 1: And if and I can guarantee, if you UM, if

1504
01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:57,200
Speaker 1: I would, I shouldn't say guarantee, I'd be willing to

1505
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:00,880
Speaker 1: bet that if if a New York Times reporter we're

1506
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:04,960
Speaker 1: to show up and I could arrange them to go

1507
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:09,040
Speaker 1: um hound hunting with some hounds machine in Wisconsin for

1508
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:11,840
Speaker 1: Bobcat up north, but at the same time a year

1509
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:15,720
Speaker 1: and actually be early in the winter, I'd be a

1510
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,040
Speaker 1: pretty much a solitary hunt. We have one or two

1511
01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:22,599
Speaker 1: trucks involved with their hounds, and they probably come aways

1512
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:26,120
Speaker 1: really impressed with how these guys operate because it's it's

1513
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:28,559
Speaker 1: not a guarantee, it's a it's a tough can be

1514
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:31,360
Speaker 1: a real tough slug out there staying after these hounds

1515
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 1: in um No, the Wisconsin's deep forest. So but you

1516
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 1: had this case, we're UM we had so many UM

1517
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:45,800
Speaker 1: trucks out there with with houndsman and such. It was

1518
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:48,800
Speaker 1: times we just saw like three or four trucks, five

1519
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,080
Speaker 1: trucks in some cases, and some of these real forest roads.

1520
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:55,599
Speaker 1: It really upsets some people who were, you know, kind

1521
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 1: of on defense about it. Another hand in hand, as

1522
01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 1: are people driving by who deal with wolves. They live

1523
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 1: in a wolf country, they've had pets killed by wolves,

1524
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:08,040
Speaker 1: livestock killed by wolves. They go by these same guys

1525
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 1: and give my thumbs up. And so you really get

1526
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:16,080
Speaker 1: these interesting perspectives on the Wisconsin landscape. To go back

1527
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:18,639
Speaker 1: to our earlier discussion about what's the average hunter, well,

1528
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 1: I would say there's a lot of hunters Wisconsin who

1529
01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:26,080
Speaker 1: probably really vocally condemning this hunt right now, and it's

1530
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:29,240
Speaker 1: just jumping to conclusions about that was just that they're

1531
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 1: blaming the Holland hunters for everything. And then there's but

1532
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:33,920
Speaker 1: there are some things I think we need to look at,

1533
01:26:34,240 --> 01:26:38,760
Speaker 1: and one of them is, um, how quickly the successful

1534
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 1: hunters registered their their wolves. I mean, by some appearances,

1535
01:26:44,160 --> 01:26:48,080
Speaker 1: by some reports. Talking to retired wardens, I know there

1536
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:52,720
Speaker 1: were some pretty pretty um I think nothing like It's

1537
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 1: one of those cases where I'm not going to quote

1538
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 1: anybody because nobody would go on the record, But I

1539
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:59,040
Speaker 1: really got the impression there was some stuff going on

1540
01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:04,280
Speaker 1: out there were either on social media or through the

1541
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 1: two way radios, encouraging each other not to register of

1542
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:11,120
Speaker 1: the wolf until you had you know, basically right down

1543
01:27:11,160 --> 01:27:13,840
Speaker 1: to last minute. So you had this big delay and

1544
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:17,799
Speaker 1: registration that almost was a full day delayed, that delayed

1545
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:20,400
Speaker 1: the season, that ran the season, not a day beyond

1546
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:23,000
Speaker 1: where it should have been. So there are some things

1547
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 1: that we gave ourselves a black eye on. It's not

1548
01:27:25,160 --> 01:27:27,519
Speaker 1: just all on the political front. Who is that our

1549
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:31,200
Speaker 1: our own individual decisions to that could have been better.

1550
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 1: We could have been saying that I don't want to

1551
01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:36,479
Speaker 1: take a chance of something getting getting out of hand

1552
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:38,880
Speaker 1: here being a part of that, and unfortunately a lot

1553
01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 1: of guys did. Yeah, I heard. I've heard so many

1554
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:45,200
Speaker 1: rumors and read so many things about this hunt that

1555
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:47,640
Speaker 1: I like, I hesitate. I'll just tell you some of

1556
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:50,920
Speaker 1: the more crazy ones. I heard that people were had

1557
01:27:51,120 --> 01:27:54,000
Speaker 1: frozen wolves and their freezer that they had shot years ago,

1558
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:55,880
Speaker 1: and they were getting them out and checking them in,

1559
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:58,200
Speaker 1: and you hear all kinds of crazy things. I have

1560
01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 1: no idea if that's true. I wasn't there, I have

1561
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't seen any proof of any kind

1562
01:28:03,200 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 1: of these crazy allegations about how the hunt went down.

1563
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:08,040
Speaker 1: But I mean, I always say on this and we've

1564
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:10,880
Speaker 1: we talked about wolves here before. Where I I when

1565
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 1: you start talking about wolves on the landscape, and we

1566
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:18,400
Speaker 1: talked about this in the Colorado ballot box biology, um case,

1567
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:22,879
Speaker 1: you know, some weeks back here. I I try to understand,

1568
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:27,000
Speaker 1: like I can understand that ranchers, landowners, the people that

1569
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:29,960
Speaker 1: are really affected by these wolves and rural like rural

1570
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:33,800
Speaker 1: and suburban situations, even I think probably in Wisconsin, like

1571
01:28:33,840 --> 01:28:35,799
Speaker 1: there's two different parts of the state, as you mentioned,

1572
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:38,599
Speaker 1: and one of them has wolves and and a lot

1573
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:41,680
Speaker 1: of a lot of these parts don't even have them. Um.

1574
01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:45,479
Speaker 1: And so I do when we're talking about this and

1575
01:28:45,479 --> 01:28:47,280
Speaker 1: how to regulate and how to think about it, I

1576
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:50,200
Speaker 1: do understand each side of the fence. You know, you

1577
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 1: understand the more urban side in Wisconsin where you might

1578
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:56,080
Speaker 1: be thinking like why would you kill a wolf? And

1579
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:57,479
Speaker 1: then you go talk to All you have to do

1580
01:28:57,520 --> 01:28:59,519
Speaker 1: is take that person and introduce them to a rancher

1581
01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:01,640
Speaker 1: or a far armor and says, this is why you

1582
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:03,599
Speaker 1: kill a wolf. Look over here, I'll tell you they're

1583
01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:05,559
Speaker 1: killing my sheep. They're doing this, they're doing that, They're

1584
01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:09,360
Speaker 1: impacting my life negatively. Um. And so I always look

1585
01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:11,800
Speaker 1: at it both ways. I understand both. I side with

1586
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:14,120
Speaker 1: the rancher. I want that rancher to have that tool

1587
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 1: to to manage those those that predation. I've seen it

1588
01:29:18,040 --> 01:29:21,160
Speaker 1: even here in Montana right close to my house where

1589
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 1: uh I have show camera footage of wolves taken down

1590
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:26,920
Speaker 1: some guy's cattle, you know, and the the U. S

1591
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:29,040
Speaker 1: D a Aphist trappers have to come in and kill

1592
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:32,160
Speaker 1: the wolf anyway, So it's a it's a complicated mix.

1593
01:29:32,200 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 1: And as you as you mentioned, um, it's delicate and

1594
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:37,840
Speaker 1: we need to treat it as such. You know, we

1595
01:29:37,880 --> 01:29:40,240
Speaker 1: need to treat this as a delicate situation, not one

1596
01:29:40,280 --> 01:29:43,240
Speaker 1: to be rammed through. Um. So we feel good about

1597
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:48,240
Speaker 1: getting what we wanted. Yeah, I I am remember in college,

1598
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:52,640
Speaker 1: well back in my Navy days, I took a a

1599
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:56,720
Speaker 1: psychology class and when these college classes you could take

1600
01:29:57,560 --> 01:30:01,160
Speaker 1: um um when your ships deployed, get college credit. I

1601
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:05,720
Speaker 1: remember this professor saying that in almost all aspects of

1602
01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:11,519
Speaker 1: human behaviors, human attitudes about se us fall right in

1603
01:30:11,520 --> 01:30:15,200
Speaker 1: the middle. You can, we can listen to arguments and

1604
01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:18,040
Speaker 1: basically will always somewhere in that seventy in the middle

1605
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:23,280
Speaker 1: and on a one fringe, on the other fringe, and

1606
01:30:23,320 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 1: no matter what you tell those folks, they're going to

1607
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:28,160
Speaker 1: stay where they are. They're not going to budge. Well

1608
01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 1: when it comes to wolves, I think, um, most of us,

1609
01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:34,439
Speaker 1: most of people I've dealt with in my in my career,

1610
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:37,599
Speaker 1: when you explain some of the nuance to them that

1611
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:42,320
Speaker 1: they have not really been part of before, most of them,

1612
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:45,240
Speaker 1: I think, will start understanding that it's not as it's

1613
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:47,599
Speaker 1: not maybe as easy as they once thought it was

1614
01:30:48,040 --> 01:30:51,479
Speaker 1: to break this down and figure it all out. But

1615
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 1: when you have something this happened, and you see headlines

1616
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:57,320
Speaker 1: that say something like the headline I saw a number

1617
01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:00,960
Speaker 1: of times in Wisconsin was that hunters kill one fifth

1618
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:05,799
Speaker 1: of the Wisconsin wolf population, I think, well, yeah, based

1619
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:09,240
Speaker 1: on estimates, that's about right. But um, the bigger question

1620
01:31:09,280 --> 01:31:13,560
Speaker 1: as well, was anning harmed Biologically No? But then you

1621
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:21,840
Speaker 1: go back to but biologically no harm, sociologically huge harm

1622
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:26,280
Speaker 1: and so but for hunters by the same token to

1623
01:31:26,360 --> 01:31:30,639
Speaker 1: act like because there was no biological harm, therefore no harm,

1624
01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 1: I think that's that's just not realistic. That's not how

1625
01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:36,800
Speaker 1: we operate in a free society where we debate these things.

1626
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:41,080
Speaker 1: We have to um fight our way through lots of

1627
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 1: information lots of different perspectives to come to some kind

1628
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:49,479
Speaker 1: of agreement, but you can't. My and my little things

1629
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:52,719
Speaker 1: in life is that you can't force love, you can't

1630
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:57,439
Speaker 1: force understanding. It has to come on its own. And

1631
01:31:57,479 --> 01:32:00,799
Speaker 1: this is one where I think this one was really

1632
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:04,559
Speaker 1: forced down the throats of the non hunting public, even

1633
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:07,479
Speaker 1: allowed the hunting public to the point where now we

1634
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:09,760
Speaker 1: hire ourselves back from the corner we did not need

1635
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,920
Speaker 1: to be in. Yeah, that's a beautiful sentiment. Man. You

1636
01:32:13,000 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 1: can't force understanding and can't force love. I mean, that's

1637
01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:18,320
Speaker 1: that's it. You can't, you know, And in this case

1638
01:32:19,400 --> 01:32:21,680
Speaker 1: it's it. It almost seems like, you know, on a

1639
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:23,840
Speaker 1: political level. And I'll just go ahead and say it.

1640
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:26,680
Speaker 1: I think Hunter Nation is clearly a like a Republican,

1641
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:29,400
Speaker 1: a right wing group. I mean, I think they don't

1642
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:30,760
Speaker 1: say it out right, but I mean if you look

1643
01:32:30,800 --> 01:32:32,640
Speaker 1: at who they are and what they do, that's what

1644
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:35,680
Speaker 1: they that's what they are. UM. And that's okay. I'm

1645
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:38,639
Speaker 1: not saying it's a bad thing. UM. I'm just saying

1646
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:43,560
Speaker 1: it's a politically driven advocacy organization and that is is

1647
01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:46,920
Speaker 1: very dangerous um in and of itself. Within the hunting space,

1648
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:50,200
Speaker 1: I feel, and again there's always to take it to

1649
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 1: the opposite. There's people that would charge UH groups like

1650
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:58,040
Speaker 1: b h A for being a left wing, politically motivated organization.

1651
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:00,360
Speaker 1: I know that not to be true, just based on

1652
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 1: my you know, my time working with them, But those

1653
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 1: ideas that we would we would allow those UM forces

1654
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:14,960
Speaker 1: in our space to work this way to try to

1655
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:19,280
Speaker 1: get wins for their side. UM is it's kind of

1656
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 1: the antithesis of what you just mentioned there because now

1657
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:23,560
Speaker 1: we're not we're trying to get wins, and we're not

1658
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:26,720
Speaker 1: talking about understanding, and then we're not talking about what

1659
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:30,080
Speaker 1: we can do to win that sociological battle that's out there,

1660
01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:32,960
Speaker 1: because really the war is for people's attention, right The

1661
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:35,320
Speaker 1: war is for people to like just pay attention to

1662
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 1: us for minutes so we can explain ourselves. That's all.

1663
01:33:37,800 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 1: That's the that's what the the overall battle is here,

1664
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:44,639
Speaker 1: UM And the every point like this that's gonna get

1665
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:48,120
Speaker 1: raised to a more popular culture level is another chance

1666
01:33:48,160 --> 01:33:51,800
Speaker 1: for us to get people's attention in a way that's positive. Yeah,

1667
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 1: I UM, I guess if I had my UM big

1668
01:33:56,439 --> 01:33:58,920
Speaker 1: wish right now and I had the same wish nine

1669
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 1: years ago was that when in two thousand and twelve,

1670
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:07,400
Speaker 1: when a Republican lawmakering Wisconsin named suitor Um made this

1671
01:34:08,000 --> 01:34:10,360
Speaker 1: made the legislation that is now our law. We have

1672
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:13,880
Speaker 1: a wolf hunt studying UM. Well, now it would start

1673
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:17,559
Speaker 1: in early November and until UM we hit our quota

1674
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:21,160
Speaker 1: or else hit late February. Well, typically we never made

1675
01:34:21,160 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 1: out of December. My my wish all along this this

1676
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:28,160
Speaker 1: past year was that that's someone in our Republican party

1677
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:32,000
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin, which controls the legislature, controls both houses of

1678
01:34:32,040 --> 01:34:36,640
Speaker 1: our legislature, our Senate and our Assembly, that some Republican

1679
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:41,160
Speaker 1: would step for step forward and say this is not

1680
01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:46,160
Speaker 1: good president to have a wolf hunting season set by

1681
01:34:46,240 --> 01:34:50,759
Speaker 1: state statute. This should be in the administrative rules process.

1682
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:55,519
Speaker 1: That's that guarantees a lot more discussion publicly among all

1683
01:34:55,560 --> 01:34:58,920
Speaker 1: the different advocacy groups and then come to us with

1684
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:03,240
Speaker 1: your final seasoned proposals and we'll weigh in then. But

1685
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:05,000
Speaker 1: we're not going to write this for you. You gotta

1686
01:35:05,040 --> 01:35:07,880
Speaker 1: do it yourself. And so we had this law put

1687
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:10,360
Speaker 1: it back out there where it's part becomes part of

1688
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 1: the Wildlife Agency's responsibility to make sure we have a

1689
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 1: good solid to hearing on this and not not making

1690
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:20,080
Speaker 1: this for you where you go to go to one

1691
01:35:20,240 --> 01:35:25,640
Speaker 1: judge and get this thing enacted like this. Yeah, and

1692
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:27,360
Speaker 1: we've seen that all over the country. We did a

1693
01:35:27,400 --> 01:35:29,639
Speaker 1: little bad bill round up was not a bad bill,

1694
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:32,560
Speaker 1: but a bill round up here of new state legislature

1695
01:35:32,600 --> 01:35:35,799
Speaker 1: bills that are being passed um all over the country

1696
01:35:36,080 --> 01:35:37,920
Speaker 1: and here in Montana, I think we had some kind

1697
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 1: of fifty eight I don't I have number in front

1698
01:35:39,840 --> 01:35:44,120
Speaker 1: of you, but over fifty bills and legislature in since

1699
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:48,280
Speaker 1: the beginning of the legislative session here. So you elect

1700
01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:52,560
Speaker 1: a new body um that's dominated by one party or

1701
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 1: the other, and they're all immediately enacting their agenda. And

1702
01:35:56,240 --> 01:35:59,040
Speaker 1: again they're elected for a reason, they know you campaign

1703
01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:01,120
Speaker 1: them on agenda. So I'm not saying that's a bad thing,

1704
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:03,519
Speaker 1: but it is what it is. I think is the

1705
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:06,200
Speaker 1: time to have this heightened sensibility as to what's right

1706
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:09,000
Speaker 1: and what's wrong right and and in this case we

1707
01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:13,320
Speaker 1: kind of fell flat in it, um. But it's it's

1708
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:15,439
Speaker 1: I I do think you know that this is how

1709
01:36:15,479 --> 01:36:18,200
Speaker 1: the political process works. But as hunters and anglers, this

1710
01:36:18,439 --> 01:36:20,560
Speaker 1: is you know, we need to start getting back on

1711
01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:23,439
Speaker 1: this understanding that these are the times when things can

1712
01:36:23,520 --> 01:36:26,599
Speaker 1: go wrong when we have, you know, the political process

1713
01:36:26,640 --> 01:36:28,800
Speaker 1: plays out in this very aggressive way, and then we're

1714
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:31,000
Speaker 1: settling into the new world and we're starting to pass

1715
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:33,320
Speaker 1: we want to pass fifty new bills to to reshape

1716
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:36,519
Speaker 1: the way, you know, and in Montana like elk tags

1717
01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:40,160
Speaker 1: are allotted and nonresident tags are a lotted, and how

1718
01:36:40,280 --> 01:36:44,120
Speaker 1: public land access is used and block management and all

1719
01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:46,599
Speaker 1: of this starts to change and you start to see

1720
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:49,439
Speaker 1: the size kind of crystallize. This is just if you

1721
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:52,440
Speaker 1: have a vested interests, this is time to be aggressive

1722
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:56,880
Speaker 1: and be calling, um, your state legislature, calling your representatives

1723
01:36:56,920 --> 01:36:59,280
Speaker 1: and just telling them, I get I mean, you guys

1724
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:01,640
Speaker 1: are voted in you doing your job. We understand that.

1725
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:04,560
Speaker 1: But this is the belief that we have, you know.

1726
01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:06,479
Speaker 1: And that's where bh A comes in. That's where all

1727
01:37:06,520 --> 01:37:08,519
Speaker 1: these groups come in. That you can jump on the

1728
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:12,080
Speaker 1: t r C, p R M e F in this case,

1729
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:16,519
Speaker 1: probably not for Wisconsin, but there's the Prior Wild Chief

1730
01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:19,880
Speaker 1: Foundation either, um, but you can get on this. You

1731
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:22,360
Speaker 1: can get on the track where you can be involved

1732
01:37:22,760 --> 01:37:24,960
Speaker 1: in something like this and you can't understand like when

1733
01:37:25,000 --> 01:37:27,200
Speaker 1: are the heightened times that the conversation needs to be

1734
01:37:27,840 --> 01:37:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, pushed forward and maybe this will happen next time.

1735
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:36,599
Speaker 1: Well yeah, one of the I think, um, one thing

1736
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:38,960
Speaker 1: I've been really proud of in Wisconsin for many years

1737
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:43,040
Speaker 1: was that back in the thirties and forties, Um, you know,

1738
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:45,960
Speaker 1: we had we had all the Leopold here in our state,

1739
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:50,120
Speaker 1: and we people should always realize that even although Leopold

1740
01:37:50,280 --> 01:37:53,519
Speaker 1: did not always prevail in his thinking, he fought a

1741
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:56,840
Speaker 1: lot of political battles that he lost in Wisconsin, especially

1742
01:37:56,880 --> 01:38:00,240
Speaker 1: on dear management. But um, through that process us in

1743
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 1: the forties, our legislature must have had some very smart

1744
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:08,160
Speaker 1: people because they they finally got sick of our deer wars.

1745
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:11,280
Speaker 1: Back in nearly forties, we were always fighting about deer management,

1746
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:16,120
Speaker 1: and Leopold was leading these these Um basically bus trips

1747
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 1: uping in Wisconsin's deer yards is showing what happens when

1748
01:38:19,240 --> 01:38:22,760
Speaker 1: we have an overpopulated deer herd. I think eventually our

1749
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:25,320
Speaker 1: our lawmakers realized, you know, this is way too much

1750
01:38:25,400 --> 01:38:28,880
Speaker 1: Menutia for us to handle. We're gonna turn this over

1751
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:32,360
Speaker 1: to the to our conservation department. Let them fight with

1752
01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:35,120
Speaker 1: the hunters and the and the non hunters, let them

1753
01:38:35,800 --> 01:38:38,160
Speaker 1: come up with some solutions here, and then bring it

1754
01:38:38,240 --> 01:38:40,679
Speaker 1: back for our final review, and then we'll either either

1755
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:43,680
Speaker 1: make them modified some more or we'll check off on it.

1756
01:38:44,200 --> 01:38:47,840
Speaker 1: And that system worked really well for close to sixty years.

1757
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:50,599
Speaker 1: Where things weren't perfect, We still fought all the time.

1758
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:53,519
Speaker 1: We still argue all the time, because as I always say,

1759
01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:56,639
Speaker 1: dear make people stupid, so we always fight about these things.

1760
01:38:57,360 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 1: And but then in the past twenty years, but especially

1761
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:05,080
Speaker 1: the last ten twelve years, we really went down this

1762
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:10,120
Speaker 1: terrible route where lawmakers, it makes they may they make

1763
01:39:10,120 --> 01:39:14,720
Speaker 1: a good argument for um limiting terms and also um

1764
01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:17,759
Speaker 1: limiting them time they can actually get together and past

1765
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:20,880
Speaker 1: laws and make we should make them part time people again,

1766
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:23,519
Speaker 1: because to have the time in their hands to go

1767
01:39:23,640 --> 01:39:25,560
Speaker 1: in there and mess with the wolf season like this

1768
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:29,200
Speaker 1: and employs a wolf season that can be so easily

1769
01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:33,639
Speaker 1: then taken into court and and forced through in this process,

1770
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:37,240
Speaker 1: it was it shows you we've swung too far away again,

1771
01:39:37,600 --> 01:39:41,120
Speaker 1: back into this idea what the legislature is doing everything.

1772
01:39:41,240 --> 01:39:44,320
Speaker 1: And I think I think we're showing that that system

1773
01:39:44,479 --> 01:39:46,600
Speaker 1: we have to go back and put this more in

1774
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:52,320
Speaker 1: the in the scientific um management again. Yeah, and there's nothing.

1775
01:39:52,479 --> 01:39:54,880
Speaker 1: There's nothing i'dlike more, as you know, like I said

1776
01:39:54,920 --> 01:39:57,640
Speaker 1: a proponent of wolf hunting, than to have a conversation

1777
01:39:57,720 --> 01:39:59,439
Speaker 1: based on the science for somebody to come to me

1778
01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:01,320
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, us, we're not hunting wolves and

1779
01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:04,719
Speaker 1: here's why, here's the science. UM. I just got finished

1780
01:40:05,080 --> 01:40:08,960
Speaker 1: reading uh Shane Mahoney and Layers guys book. It's not

1781
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,400
Speaker 1: really title very well. It's called the North American Model

1782
01:40:11,400 --> 01:40:14,280
Speaker 1: of Wilife Conservation. That's the book title. It's not very intriguing,

1783
01:40:14,400 --> 01:40:17,800
Speaker 1: but it's descriptive. It's the third time I've read it,

1784
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:20,080
Speaker 1: because every time I read it, I kind of look

1785
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:21,600
Speaker 1: at the lens of where we are right now, and

1786
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:26,639
Speaker 1: and if you start to understand the failings of the model,

1787
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:29,519
Speaker 1: our model of conservation, it's when, just like you said,

1788
01:40:29,600 --> 01:40:32,200
Speaker 1: it's when we we kind of stray away from whether

1789
01:40:32,240 --> 01:40:34,800
Speaker 1: it be by ballot box or by state legislature in

1790
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:39,360
Speaker 1: this case, really looking at not not the different parties

1791
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:42,200
Speaker 1: and different stakeholders involved, but starting with the science, like

1792
01:40:42,280 --> 01:40:45,280
Speaker 1: what's the stines of what Bogy say? Then once we

1793
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:47,040
Speaker 1: get to where we really know, we want to be.

1794
01:40:47,439 --> 01:40:49,439
Speaker 1: Then we can let kind of the social and political

1795
01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:52,840
Speaker 1: factors come into play and maybe help us shape a

1796
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:55,519
Speaker 1: little bit of how we deliver what the science is

1797
01:40:55,560 --> 01:40:57,800
Speaker 1: telling us to do, or how we manage what the

1798
01:40:57,840 --> 01:41:00,439
Speaker 1: science is telling us to do, not the other around.

1799
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:03,040
Speaker 1: You can't do it based on political needs and then

1800
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:07,040
Speaker 1: re engineer the science like in this case. Um, it's

1801
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:10,880
Speaker 1: gonna seem disingenuous because it is disingenuous in a lot

1802
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:15,040
Speaker 1: of ways. So it's um, I mean, it's it's I

1803
01:41:15,120 --> 01:41:18,160
Speaker 1: guess it's just part of what we do, Pats, just

1804
01:41:18,320 --> 01:41:21,800
Speaker 1: like part of being in this uh community, and like

1805
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:25,240
Speaker 1: understanding that you're gonna win someone, you're gonna lose some

1806
01:41:25,360 --> 01:41:28,160
Speaker 1: and almost every every win and loss, it are complex

1807
01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:30,040
Speaker 1: and have a lot of rights and a lot of

1808
01:41:30,120 --> 01:41:32,719
Speaker 1: wrongs baked in because I think this situation there's plenty

1809
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:35,600
Speaker 1: that was done right. Like you said, if you just

1810
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:39,439
Speaker 1: if you're just putting a tally on the board, it's

1811
01:41:39,479 --> 01:41:41,800
Speaker 1: not the worst thing in the world. Um, it doesn't

1812
01:41:41,800 --> 01:41:46,400
Speaker 1: really impact wolf populations, but um, that's not where it ends.

1813
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:49,720
Speaker 1: So you know, I imagine we'll continue to have these

1814
01:41:50,240 --> 01:41:55,600
Speaker 1: is right, And I I always say, Ben, I'm a

1815
01:41:55,800 --> 01:41:59,800
Speaker 1: Wisconsin Shovanist. I'm also all hunting and North American models

1816
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:04,040
Speaker 1: over this. I really do believe we have good systems

1817
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:07,639
Speaker 1: in place. We have smart people, We have smart people

1818
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:11,000
Speaker 1: in our history, and I really believe, and I really

1819
01:42:11,040 --> 01:42:16,320
Speaker 1: believe overall that if you have um nice, respectful conversations,

1820
01:42:17,040 --> 01:42:20,240
Speaker 1: you might be arguing, but they're still respectful, and your

1821
01:42:20,400 --> 01:42:25,160
Speaker 1: in your marshaling information and deploying it in in a

1822
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:29,960
Speaker 1: good strategic way that's providing people input from both sides.

1823
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:33,840
Speaker 1: I think we can have really a great system here,

1824
01:42:34,320 --> 01:42:36,720
Speaker 1: But when it comes down to where we have to

1825
01:42:36,840 --> 01:42:43,200
Speaker 1: win the argument and dominate the argument and basically demonize

1826
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 1: people who don't see things the way we do and

1827
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:53,200
Speaker 1: make this um right left, um liberal conservative argument, I

1828
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:56,599
Speaker 1: really like to think that in the course of American

1829
01:42:56,720 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 1: history we've done better than that. You know, we found

1830
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:03,760
Speaker 1: we can do better than this, And I really am.

1831
01:43:04,000 --> 01:43:06,040
Speaker 1: I am kind of surprised so so many times that

1832
01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:09,280
Speaker 1: people think we have to win, and I think, no,

1833
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:12,639
Speaker 1: politics is not about at least it shouldn't be about winning.

1834
01:43:13,120 --> 01:43:15,400
Speaker 1: It should be all doing what's best for the for

1835
01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 1: the American public, and our traditions are these kind of

1836
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:22,400
Speaker 1: things that I hold dear, and you hold dear, and

1837
01:43:22,479 --> 01:43:25,439
Speaker 1: I think most Americans do. And but I don't like

1838
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: this idea of intimidating people and um making them basically

1839
01:43:30,920 --> 01:43:34,600
Speaker 1: conformed of what we think is right. Yeah, yeah, I

1840
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:37,360
Speaker 1: mean there's so much of it there. I have. I

1841
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:38,680
Speaker 1: don't want to say. I'm not gonna say I have

1842
01:43:38,720 --> 01:43:41,200
Speaker 1: a dream, but I do. I have a dream, and

1843
01:43:41,439 --> 01:43:44,760
Speaker 1: I like I wish. I think the best conversation I

1844
01:43:44,800 --> 01:43:47,320
Speaker 1: could have if we could take like a consumptive and

1845
01:43:47,400 --> 01:43:50,719
Speaker 1: a non consumptive user in this case, say a hunter

1846
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 1: or an angler and an animal rights activists or somebody

1847
01:43:55,240 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 1: believes in animal rights, have each of them put together

1848
01:43:57,920 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 1: a model of conservation. Of course, we could just be like,

1849
01:43:59,880 --> 01:44:02,639
Speaker 1: we got one already, why don't you put one together?

1850
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:06,439
Speaker 1: So they and the Analyrights Committee puts together a model

1851
01:44:06,520 --> 01:44:10,240
Speaker 1: conservation as in depth um as as the one we

1852
01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:12,920
Speaker 1: currently have that was worked out by Mahoney and Geist

1853
01:44:13,439 --> 01:44:15,880
Speaker 1: back in the eighties and articulated back in the age,

1854
01:44:16,400 --> 01:44:18,160
Speaker 1: and then we could put them next to each other

1855
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:20,719
Speaker 1: and have a good conversation. We could go tenant by tenant,

1856
01:44:21,600 --> 01:44:25,800
Speaker 1: issue by issue and try to apply they're one model

1857
01:44:25,920 --> 01:44:29,080
Speaker 1: versus the other, and maybe you get to some sort

1858
01:44:29,120 --> 01:44:34,000
Speaker 1: of like combined model that takes both of these insights

1859
01:44:34,120 --> 01:44:38,439
Speaker 1: and perspectives and ideologies into into account when we're building

1860
01:44:38,479 --> 01:44:40,320
Speaker 1: these things out, so we don't have to punch each

1861
01:44:40,360 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 1: other and beat each other over the head with with

1862
01:44:43,120 --> 01:44:46,800
Speaker 1: our victories and losses. And and so I'm gonna find

1863
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:49,880
Speaker 1: I'm find a real smart animal rights person that can

1864
01:44:50,320 --> 01:44:53,839
Speaker 1: that can read the North American model wildlife conservation, understand

1865
01:44:53,920 --> 01:44:56,800
Speaker 1: its faults and where it's succeeded, and then say like,

1866
01:44:57,040 --> 01:45:00,360
Speaker 1: now here's a world where we're not killing them, and

1867
01:45:00,439 --> 01:45:02,240
Speaker 1: here's how we're gonna make this work, you know. And

1868
01:45:03,560 --> 01:45:06,360
Speaker 1: I'm I think I'd love to have that conversation and

1869
01:45:06,520 --> 01:45:08,880
Speaker 1: stop just saying you're wrong and I'm right, And here's why.

1870
01:45:09,200 --> 01:45:11,800
Speaker 1: I'd like to see it written down. So maybe maybe

1871
01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:14,040
Speaker 1: some animal rights person is listening to this, they start

1872
01:45:14,080 --> 01:45:16,840
Speaker 1: working on It might take him a while, but and

1873
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:18,960
Speaker 1: That's what I'd love to see, because I finally we

1874
01:45:19,479 --> 01:45:21,120
Speaker 1: get after the heart of the matter. We would get

1875
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:22,960
Speaker 1: to the heart of is your way better for wolves?

1876
01:45:23,080 --> 01:45:25,960
Speaker 1: Or is our way better for wolves? But but for

1877
01:45:26,080 --> 01:45:29,720
Speaker 1: now we're too far separated. Oh yeah, and like we

1878
01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:34,120
Speaker 1: um we We had a pel discussion a few years

1879
01:45:34,120 --> 01:45:37,880
Speaker 1: ago in Wisconsin, one of our our our outdoor communicators thing,

1880
01:45:37,920 --> 01:45:41,880
Speaker 1: and we invited in the Hollinsman. We invited in a

1881
01:45:41,960 --> 01:45:46,120
Speaker 1: wolf advocate and we had a real, really good, our

1882
01:45:46,360 --> 01:45:49,600
Speaker 1: hour and a half discussion, and we basically got the

1883
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:52,760
Speaker 1: point where we um, we realized that no matter what

1884
01:45:52,880 --> 01:45:55,760
Speaker 1: we do as far as Holland hunting, that will never

1885
01:45:56,120 --> 01:46:00,760
Speaker 1: get them. The wolf advocate to agree that that's a

1886
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:03,280
Speaker 1: good way to hunt bowls, but she she didn't want

1887
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:06,320
Speaker 1: any kind of hunting trapping period. But but at least

1888
01:46:06,479 --> 01:46:11,599
Speaker 1: um she got to hear from an actual houndsman how

1889
01:46:11,680 --> 01:46:15,400
Speaker 1: they go about hunting wolves and and why isn't always

1890
01:46:15,439 --> 01:46:18,760
Speaker 1: this dog fighting that they're portraying. And I thought was

1891
01:46:19,680 --> 01:46:22,439
Speaker 1: I felt a healthy discussion. And I think when you

1892
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:28,200
Speaker 1: get into the one of the points Steve Ronella makes

1893
01:46:29,200 --> 01:46:32,479
Speaker 1: quite often which holds up for the whole wolf argument,

1894
01:46:32,560 --> 01:46:35,240
Speaker 1: is that you know, Steep points out that if you

1895
01:46:35,280 --> 01:46:39,840
Speaker 1: not say that um wolves haven't recovered of the range,

1896
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:43,040
Speaker 1: well then well then you gotta also point out that

1897
01:46:43,200 --> 01:46:46,280
Speaker 1: elk have I want to recovered about eleven of their range.

1898
01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:49,360
Speaker 1: So where do you draw this line? And and here

1899
01:46:49,360 --> 01:46:52,719
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin, it's pretty clear where um, the the lines

1900
01:46:52,760 --> 01:46:56,400
Speaker 1: being drawn we have Wherever we have big forest, we

1901
01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:59,960
Speaker 1: have a wolf, a wolf population. We have a central

1902
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:03,040
Speaker 1: force in Wisconsin with a decent wolf population. Then they're

1903
01:47:03,040 --> 01:47:04,600
Speaker 1: also up north. But then once you get out of

1904
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:08,320
Speaker 1: that area, you get these stragglers and these dispersers that

1905
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:12,320
Speaker 1: don't really make it. This really is a good environment

1906
01:47:12,360 --> 01:47:16,960
Speaker 1: for them. But I think now in Wisconsin we've gone

1907
01:47:17,080 --> 01:47:20,439
Speaker 1: from back in the eighties, we're rethought. Back then, the

1908
01:47:20,520 --> 01:47:23,240
Speaker 1: best available science in the nineteen eighties was that we'd

1909
01:47:23,280 --> 01:47:26,439
Speaker 1: be lucky to get one hundred wolves re established in Wisconsin.

1910
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:29,839
Speaker 1: And they started trickling back in here in the nineteen

1911
01:47:29,880 --> 01:47:33,040
Speaker 1: eighties and it was kind of fits and jerks, and

1912
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:36,679
Speaker 1: eventually they thought, well, you probably hold a hundred wolves

1913
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:39,080
Speaker 1: in the state. Then by the year two thousand, we

1914
01:47:39,320 --> 01:47:43,240
Speaker 1: were thinking the best available sciences that well, we'll probably

1915
01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:46,000
Speaker 1: cap off your out three fifty. Well now we are

1916
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:49,360
Speaker 1: here in one and the best available in science is

1917
01:47:49,439 --> 01:47:52,519
Speaker 1: now showing well, actually, these wolves are more adaptable than

1918
01:47:52,560 --> 01:47:55,720
Speaker 1: we realized. We learned something. We can now have at

1919
01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:58,400
Speaker 1: least twelve hundred wolves here, and you know that, but

1920
01:47:58,479 --> 01:48:03,679
Speaker 1: it is but now we're seeing consistent problems with pets

1921
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:07,400
Speaker 1: being killed, livestock being killed, and and so I think

1922
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:09,640
Speaker 1: the average person could can understand that. Well, if you

1923
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:13,360
Speaker 1: have a wolf hunt that's well regulated, chances are you

1924
01:48:13,680 --> 01:48:16,160
Speaker 1: knock off the wolves that are most likely to be

1925
01:48:16,439 --> 01:48:20,320
Speaker 1: close to people, hanging out in people's um, at the

1926
01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:25,040
Speaker 1: edge of people's barnyards and fields. Those will be a

1927
01:48:25,080 --> 01:48:27,799
Speaker 1: little more susceptible because they've gotten too close to humans,

1928
01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:30,800
Speaker 1: and so we'll probably get them. So, but you have

1929
01:48:30,920 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 1: these nuanced discussions, we really we are capable of doing that.

1930
01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:39,559
Speaker 1: And that's why I think in this case, I felt like, man,

1931
01:48:39,680 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 1: you guys are not giving the American people, the Wisconsin

1932
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:44,680
Speaker 1: people enough credit here. You've got to realize we have

1933
01:48:44,800 --> 01:48:49,880
Speaker 1: unique situations. You can't compare um Wisconsin wolf hunting with

1934
01:48:50,120 --> 01:48:55,240
Speaker 1: Montana wolf hunting. Ian Wisconsin's forest is pretty well divided up,

1935
01:48:55,400 --> 01:48:58,760
Speaker 1: lots of trails and roads that you can get a

1936
01:48:58,840 --> 01:49:02,760
Speaker 1: truck down those vast areas of the West. You do

1937
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:05,639
Speaker 1: not have that. You cannot put the number of hunters

1938
01:49:05,680 --> 01:49:08,960
Speaker 1: into some most western landscapes that you can hear in Wisconsin.

1939
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:13,000
Speaker 1: So this is these are all tied together. And but

1940
01:49:13,200 --> 01:49:16,160
Speaker 1: also different. But but you're trying to tell me that

1941
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:19,479
Speaker 1: the average New York Times reporter understands those that kind

1942
01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:23,479
Speaker 1: of nuance. No, and you can't expect them to if

1943
01:49:23,479 --> 01:49:26,120
Speaker 1: you're only covered that story once a year and not

1944
01:49:26,360 --> 01:49:30,439
Speaker 1: be pounding on that beat ye're in year out. Yeah

1945
01:49:30,520 --> 01:49:32,200
Speaker 1: and yeah, the first quote the story is going to

1946
01:49:32,240 --> 01:49:34,000
Speaker 1: be from h s U S right, And the hs

1947
01:49:34,080 --> 01:49:35,840
Speaker 1: US isn't gonna say, you know what, you know what?

1948
01:49:36,080 --> 01:49:39,720
Speaker 1: What's different? You know, ecological needs are different states to say.

1949
01:49:39,880 --> 01:49:41,400
Speaker 1: And you know, I was wading about the North American

1950
01:49:41,439 --> 01:49:43,439
Speaker 1: wild and wild of conservation. One of the key tenants

1951
01:49:43,800 --> 01:49:46,320
Speaker 1: is that science of biology manager on the state level

1952
01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:48,080
Speaker 1: is going to really get us to the populations that

1953
01:49:48,160 --> 01:49:50,559
Speaker 1: we need. That's not going to happen, and it's never

1954
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:53,280
Speaker 1: gonna happen unless you push it. But I do think

1955
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 1: they're I think right, Um, we just have to we

1956
01:49:59,040 --> 01:50:01,720
Speaker 1: have to find a way to to learn from this

1957
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:06,840
Speaker 1: particular one and move on. And UM, I don't like

1958
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:11,240
Speaker 1: to get I'm not very argumentative anymore online, but I

1959
01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:13,880
Speaker 1: think on this one, I would be pretty argumentative if

1960
01:50:13,920 --> 01:50:15,960
Speaker 1: I saw somebody and I I'm not saying i've seen this.

1961
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:18,080
Speaker 1: I don't spend whole lot of time in there anymore.

1962
01:50:18,160 --> 01:50:21,559
Speaker 1: But if I saw somebody online and I guess if

1963
01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:25,200
Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast, I I hesitate. I hesitate,

1964
01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:28,720
Speaker 1: But I will encourage you to address this directly. If

1965
01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:32,760
Speaker 1: someone is celebrating this wolf hunt in a way is

1966
01:50:32,800 --> 01:50:34,960
Speaker 1: to say, like we won. You know, whether they're a

1967
01:50:35,000 --> 01:50:39,360
Speaker 1: Trump supporter or they're not, or you know they're Republican,

1968
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:43,880
Speaker 1: don't matter. If they're um celebrating this wolf hunt in

1969
01:50:43,960 --> 01:50:47,840
Speaker 1: a way that we beat the anti hunters, it's time

1970
01:50:47,880 --> 01:50:50,320
Speaker 1: to have it. Like I would have a direct conversation

1971
01:50:50,360 --> 01:50:54,479
Speaker 1: with them to say, uh no. I mean it would

1972
01:50:54,479 --> 01:50:56,280
Speaker 1: start by saying yes and no, but here's the big

1973
01:50:56,360 --> 01:50:59,280
Speaker 1: no on this one, um. And I think that's important

1974
01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:01,400
Speaker 1: for our community to be able to be that honest

1975
01:51:01,479 --> 01:51:04,280
Speaker 1: and with ourselves and with other people around us, to say,

1976
01:51:04,680 --> 01:51:08,960
Speaker 1: let's talk, let's educate each other, and let's not uh,

1977
01:51:09,240 --> 01:51:14,240
Speaker 1: let's not do this. Let's not have this this celebratory mindset, um,

1978
01:51:14,800 --> 01:51:17,840
Speaker 1: because we got to kill some wolves in Wisconsin, and

1979
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:20,680
Speaker 1: and quite honestly, most people that would be celebrating it,

1980
01:51:21,400 --> 01:51:24,920
Speaker 1: including Hunter Nation, they don't know the politics like you do.

1981
01:51:25,040 --> 01:51:27,840
Speaker 1: In the socio economic needs and and again I mean

1982
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:31,880
Speaker 1: we might say, hey, you could either pay on a

1983
01:51:31,960 --> 01:51:35,040
Speaker 1: federal level aphis or pay on a state level or

1984
01:51:35,280 --> 01:51:39,040
Speaker 1: on a municipality level to control these problem wolves. Or

1985
01:51:39,200 --> 01:51:41,080
Speaker 1: you can have hunters do it as you mentioned, and

1986
01:51:41,160 --> 01:51:43,719
Speaker 1: they'll pay you for it. Uh, and a lot of hunters.

1987
01:51:43,800 --> 01:51:45,840
Speaker 1: I don't what what was the number of of tag sold?

1988
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:47,559
Speaker 1: I mean, all of that is revenue for the state.

1989
01:51:49,000 --> 01:51:52,040
Speaker 1: And so you have this idea where where so many

1990
01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:55,439
Speaker 1: of the things that we value are working. Um, especially

1991
01:51:55,520 --> 01:51:57,439
Speaker 1: you know if you if you're just getting your checkbook

1992
01:51:57,439 --> 01:52:00,880
Speaker 1: out here and balancing it. This is a a very

1993
01:52:00,960 --> 01:52:04,400
Speaker 1: positive thing as as opposed to, you know, financially what

1994
01:52:04,439 --> 01:52:08,559
Speaker 1: would be a negative thing having state and federal governments

1995
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:10,680
Speaker 1: have to manage this and and pay people to go

1996
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:16,120
Speaker 1: and control predation. So, boy, it's it's a fun one.

1997
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:17,720
Speaker 1: But I mean, I don't think there's anybody better to

1998
01:52:17,760 --> 01:52:21,680
Speaker 1: talk about the new pat. I appreciate, um, I appreciate

1999
01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:24,800
Speaker 1: your your stance on this, and I appreciate you You're

2000
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:28,599
Speaker 1: talking about love and understanding in this case because as

2001
01:52:28,640 --> 01:52:30,719
Speaker 1: its trade as it may sound, it's a hundred percent

2002
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:35,479
Speaker 1: right like it just really is. Yeah, I love it.

2003
01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:38,760
Speaker 1: So you can go read Pat uh Patrick DRK and

2004
01:52:38,760 --> 01:52:40,599
Speaker 1: outdoors dot com. If you go to his blog, he's

2005
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:44,280
Speaker 1: got an article there all about this um Wisconsin's wolf

2006
01:52:44,320 --> 01:52:48,200
Speaker 1: Overharst was predictable and preventable. There's all kinds of other stuff.

2007
01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:51,080
Speaker 1: So you're posting there weekly, right Pat? Yeh and Um.

2008
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:53,880
Speaker 1: As you know, Ben, you guys have been let me

2009
01:52:54,200 --> 01:52:56,640
Speaker 1: right for you now for almost three years and and

2010
01:52:56,760 --> 01:52:58,800
Speaker 1: we see it the other way around. You let us

2011
01:52:58,840 --> 01:53:03,720
Speaker 1: publish your material. So yeah, you're doing bi weekly on

2012
01:53:03,760 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 1: the Mediator dot com still these days. Yeah, so you

2013
01:53:06,960 --> 01:53:08,840
Speaker 1: can every other week. Pat's got a thing on the

2014
01:53:08,880 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 1: Mediator dot com. His last article was about the death

2015
01:53:12,360 --> 01:53:15,320
Speaker 1: of the deer camp. I love that once. So I

2016
01:53:15,360 --> 01:53:17,439
Speaker 1: can't wait. What's your next what's the next piece you're

2017
01:53:17,439 --> 01:53:19,760
Speaker 1: working on? The piece I'll be some name do to

2018
01:53:19,840 --> 01:53:21,880
Speaker 1: you guys today is UM. After you and I get

2019
01:53:21,920 --> 01:53:24,439
Speaker 1: off the phone, I'm wrapping up an article I wrote

2020
01:53:24,479 --> 01:53:30,240
Speaker 1: on on Davy Crockett. And I've been when his Davy

2021
01:53:30,280 --> 01:53:33,880
Speaker 1: Crockett fans since I was a little little boy, and

2022
01:53:34,479 --> 01:53:36,400
Speaker 1: I always love the fact that he was this big hunter.

2023
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:41,799
Speaker 1: But also I was always fascinated by um the stories

2024
01:53:41,840 --> 01:53:45,360
Speaker 1: of his death at the Alimo, And that's kind of

2025
01:53:45,400 --> 01:53:47,880
Speaker 1: what I'm well, actually, when I'm writing about is he

2026
01:53:48,040 --> 01:53:51,479
Speaker 1: did Davy Crockett quote on swinging, And that's always this

2027
01:53:51,760 --> 01:53:55,120
Speaker 1: um interesting historical debate that will never that will never

2028
01:53:55,439 --> 01:53:58,599
Speaker 1: end and will never solve it. And yet we um

2029
01:53:59,120 --> 01:54:02,320
Speaker 1: we and away fighting about it. And you watched the

2030
01:54:02,400 --> 01:54:04,559
Speaker 1: hissy fits that have happened in our country the last

2031
01:54:05,120 --> 01:54:09,160
Speaker 1: oh especially basically since Disney's movie came out about Davy

2032
01:54:09,200 --> 01:54:13,479
Speaker 1: Crockett m a year before I was born. And that's

2033
01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:15,640
Speaker 1: what I'm writing about. That. That's one thing I have

2034
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:18,599
Speaker 1: to say I really enjoy about writing with for Meat

2035
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:22,439
Speaker 1: Eater and work with you guys bouncing ideas around, is

2036
01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:26,559
Speaker 1: that it isn't just how to hunting stuff. It's um,

2037
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:29,479
Speaker 1: I think we get into the whole hunting culture or

2038
01:54:29,800 --> 01:54:33,280
Speaker 1: why people like Davy Crockett Daniel Boone resonate with us

2039
01:54:33,280 --> 01:54:37,160
Speaker 1: all these years later. Um. Well, my articles I really

2040
01:54:37,240 --> 01:54:40,920
Speaker 1: enjoyed writing for you guys was about Jeremiah Johnson, that

2041
01:54:41,000 --> 01:54:47,360
Speaker 1: the Jeremiah Johnson movie, and I just find um, those

2042
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:50,680
Speaker 1: kind of stories resonate not just with hunters, but but

2043
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:54,040
Speaker 1: I'm a much bigger audience and I figured if we

2044
01:54:54,120 --> 01:54:57,880
Speaker 1: can find ways to um not suck other people in,

2045
01:54:58,040 --> 01:55:01,360
Speaker 1: but just intrigued them to show them now hunting is

2046
01:55:01,400 --> 01:55:05,640
Speaker 1: a little more um deep and part of our culture,

2047
01:55:05,720 --> 01:55:10,160
Speaker 1: then I think sometimes we think about these days. I

2048
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:12,440
Speaker 1: like the fact that me Eater lets me write about

2049
01:55:12,440 --> 01:55:14,440
Speaker 1: it because I can tell you, as a as a

2050
01:55:14,520 --> 01:55:18,640
Speaker 1: career door right now going on almost forty years, that

2051
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:22,920
Speaker 1: many hunting markets, you know, those magazines or whatever it

2052
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:27,480
Speaker 1: might be, UM don't touch that stuff. Whereas meat Eater

2053
01:55:27,600 --> 01:55:29,840
Speaker 1: does explore those topics and give you a little more

2054
01:55:30,360 --> 01:55:33,760
Speaker 1: freedom to explore topics that are people don't. Well, I'll

2055
01:55:33,760 --> 01:55:35,520
Speaker 1: tell I'll tell the guys. If you're a little bit late,

2056
01:55:36,040 --> 01:55:37,680
Speaker 1: if you're if you miss your deadline, you can blame

2057
01:55:37,720 --> 01:55:45,840
Speaker 1: it on me. Okay, Brian's Brian's fault. Well that's I

2058
01:55:45,880 --> 01:55:48,680
Speaker 1: guess that earlier. Man. It's it's we have very brief

2059
01:55:48,800 --> 01:55:51,320
Speaker 1: moments of attention for people that don't do what we do,

2060
01:55:51,520 --> 01:55:54,720
Speaker 1: and hopefully articles that you write and think in the

2061
01:55:54,760 --> 01:55:57,600
Speaker 1: work that you produce you work so hard on you know,

2062
01:55:57,680 --> 01:55:59,880
Speaker 1: people could see it, and those brief moments that we

2063
01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:02,440
Speaker 1: get their attention, they can be informed and kind of

2064
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:06,919
Speaker 1: you know, take a small step forward and to understanding

2065
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:09,160
Speaker 1: what we do. And I don't know if we'll ever

2066
01:56:09,240 --> 01:56:12,520
Speaker 1: get to really track how we're doing on that. I

2067
01:56:12,560 --> 01:56:15,360
Speaker 1: don't think they'll ever be data that. But it doesn't matter.

2068
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:17,440
Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's work will continue to do

2069
01:56:17,600 --> 01:56:20,760
Speaker 1: even if we we can't see the trees or the

2070
01:56:20,800 --> 01:56:22,760
Speaker 1: forest through the trees, We're just gonna keep on going.

2071
01:56:22,880 --> 01:56:27,160
Speaker 1: So uh, we appreciate you, and people should. If you're

2072
01:56:27,160 --> 01:56:30,440
Speaker 1: not reading Pat Durkin, shame on you. Your bastards. Get

2073
01:56:30,520 --> 01:56:34,400
Speaker 1: to it. Pat, thank you so much. Thanks Ben, good

2074
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:46,720
Speaker 1: talking to you. That's it. That's all another episode in

2075
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:49,600
Speaker 1: the books. Thank you to Pat Durkin, one of my

2076
01:56:49,680 --> 01:56:54,200
Speaker 1: favorite writers, one of my favorite people. Ah, it's just

2077
01:56:54,320 --> 01:56:55,880
Speaker 1: it's good to catch up with the guys. It's funny

2078
01:56:56,600 --> 01:57:00,880
Speaker 1: in our in our space, we're so busy. That's something

2079
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:02,800
Speaker 1: like Pat. I very rarely get to talk to him

2080
01:57:02,840 --> 01:57:05,360
Speaker 1: and catch up with him, and so podcasting with him

2081
01:57:05,400 --> 01:57:06,760
Speaker 1: is one of the only ways we could to spend

2082
01:57:06,840 --> 01:57:10,560
Speaker 1: time together. And I appreciate him so much. I find

2083
01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:15,640
Speaker 1: myself falling into those those conversations, just as somebody who

2084
01:57:15,720 --> 01:57:18,640
Speaker 1: likes to hear from somebody. He really respects and and

2085
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:20,520
Speaker 1: hopes you can call a friend. So it's good to

2086
01:57:20,600 --> 01:57:24,000
Speaker 1: have Pat around always, and we'll certainly keep you guys

2087
01:57:24,160 --> 01:57:27,520
Speaker 1: updated on the Wisconsin wolf funt and kind of the

2088
01:57:28,560 --> 01:57:31,560
Speaker 1: the fissures in the landscape and some of the astershocks

2089
01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:34,520
Speaker 1: from the earthquake as it were. To see where this

2090
01:57:34,640 --> 01:57:37,600
Speaker 1: takes us. But it is um, it's an interesting story

2091
01:57:38,320 --> 01:57:41,080
Speaker 1: and it happened right under our noses, and um it

2092
01:57:41,160 --> 01:57:44,480
Speaker 1: took and took until it went uh it became even

2093
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:47,760
Speaker 1: more controversial, or in my opinion, it went wrong for

2094
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:49,840
Speaker 1: us to really focus on it. So next time would

2095
01:57:49,840 --> 01:57:53,640
Speaker 1: be a little more proactive in discussing it. Um. But

2096
01:57:53,960 --> 01:57:56,640
Speaker 1: again Pat did a great job in reporting on it.

2097
01:57:57,040 --> 01:57:59,440
Speaker 1: He has the experience that we needed to hear from

2098
01:57:59,560 --> 01:58:01,520
Speaker 1: and he cares about, you know, the fabric of the

2099
01:58:01,560 --> 01:58:05,440
Speaker 1: community around Wisconsin in places he lives and he knows

2100
01:58:05,520 --> 01:58:09,000
Speaker 1: the people. So it was important and good. I'm glad

2101
01:58:09,040 --> 01:58:11,920
Speaker 1: to have it with old Pat. Thank you, Pat. Uh So,

2102
01:58:12,200 --> 01:58:16,520
Speaker 1: just to reiterate before we go, UM, if you want

2103
01:58:16,520 --> 01:58:21,280
Speaker 1: to be a leader th C regional chapter, let me

2104
01:58:21,320 --> 01:58:23,040
Speaker 1: know th HD at the metator dot com. Let me

2105
01:58:23,080 --> 01:58:25,760
Speaker 1: know where you live, what's what's your interest, whether you

2106
01:58:25,800 --> 01:58:28,800
Speaker 1: would be a mentor or mentee, whether you get a

2107
01:58:28,840 --> 01:58:30,320
Speaker 1: lot of time to spend, whether you want to be

2108
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:33,600
Speaker 1: a part of the group we put together. So just

2109
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:38,280
Speaker 1: as a quick aside, Phil, Um, if you're out there, stop,

2110
01:58:38,360 --> 01:58:43,480
Speaker 1: don't create any more Facebook pages. We gotta walk that back.

2111
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:46,120
Speaker 1: We don't want to have like a random so many

2112
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Speaker 1: random Facebook pages. But I appreciate all the effort that

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Speaker 1: went into just creating those. In our our behalf. We

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Speaker 1: gotta get our arms around this thing here, people, and

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01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:56,600
Speaker 1: uh figure out what we're gonna do. So we're committed

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01:58:56,640 --> 01:59:00,200
Speaker 1: to that. Phil especially is committed to that. And um,

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Speaker 1: we're just about two months out Phil's first hunting experience.

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Speaker 1: So maybe by the time he gets out in the

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Speaker 1: woods for the first time, we'll have a robust group

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Speaker 1: of chapters that can share in his adulation of his

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Speaker 1: hunting success. Okay, Phil, sounds great. All right, say bye

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Speaker 1: to the people. Goodbye people, you know, because I can't

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Speaker 1: go a week without doing rong, oh without ranking