1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb. On today's episode of Stuff to 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind, I'm going to be speaking with noted 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: paleoanthropologist Lee Berger, author of the new book Cave of Bones, 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: a true story of discovery, adventure, and human origins, and 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 2: he's also featured in the Netflix documentary Unknown Cave of Bones. 8 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: Let's get right to the interview. Hi, Lee, Thanks for 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: coming on the show. 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 3: It's great to be here. 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 2: To start off, just really generally, how should listeners understand 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 2: the mission and the challenges of paleoanthropology. 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 3: So paleoanthropology is, in its loosest definition, the search for 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 3: understanding human origins, but it's a little broader than that. 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: It's also hominine origins. And the reason I make that 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 3: distinction is that we humans tend to self center everything 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 3: around ourselves, and hominins are bipedal apes that are part 18 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 3: of our journey, but they're not all our direct ancestors. 19 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 3: If you will. There's been a mass and almost braided 20 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 3: stream of ancient relatives that walked on two legs that 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 3: are closer related to us than chimpanzees and gorillas are 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 3: so there if you imagine evolution of sort of coming 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: from a last common ancestor, gorilla's broke off first, then chimpanzees, 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: bona bo's breakoff, and all the rest of that story 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: between us and that moment are the hominins as we evolved, 26 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 3: bipedalism and special adaptations. We also, though, study not only 27 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 3: the physical morphology the kind of the way that evolution happens. 28 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 3: We study the culture of these ancients spies, and that's 29 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: going to be I think particularly important to these most 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 3: recent discoveries. 31 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: Now, you were previously the Philip Tobias Chair in Paleoanthropology 32 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: at the University of Atvadeschrand. I know you've taken on 33 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: some new titles recently. What is your role now with 34 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: National Geographic and how does all of this factor into 35 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 2: your other positions and your work? 36 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 3: Right, So, I am an explorer in residence is my 37 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 3: primary job at National Geographic Society. I'm also a Senior 38 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 3: Carnegie Science Fellow. That's a very recent appointment, as I've 39 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 3: joined that organization largely to push the sort of hard 40 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 3: sciences in our field and the relationship between that remarkable 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 3: group of scientists and organization. I still maintain a position 42 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 3: at VITZ an honorary professor, and I'm director of the 43 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: Center for the Exploration of the Deep Human Journey, so 44 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 3: all of those intersect with each other. I run a 45 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 3: very large science program that has a sort of collaborative 46 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 3: collegial group of scientists from around the world of over 47 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty at this time. It's growing almost 48 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: on a daily basis. That so it's a very large 49 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,399 Speaker 3: science program. Some of those are based in the sort 50 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: of traditional university setting, others of them are based in 51 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 3: sort of institutional things like Carnegie or museums. 52 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 2: Now the book is Cave of Bones, a true story 53 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 2: of discovery, adventure and human origins. And then of course 54 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: we also have the Netflix documentary Unknown Cave of Bones. 55 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: They take readers and viewers to a particular cave system 56 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 2: in South Africa. Can you tell us about the Rising 57 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: Star Cave Complex? 58 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: So the Rising Star Cave complex came deeply into my 59 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: life in twenty thirteen. I'd known about it before then. 60 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 3: It was a very well known system of caves where 61 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: amateur cavers and I'd even caved in in the nineteen 62 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 3: nineties just outside of Johannesburg, South Africa, if you will, 63 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 3: a huge network of subterranean system almost four kilometers long. 64 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 3: So what is that two and a half miles or 65 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: so of underground passages networks, small and somewhat larger cave 66 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 3: systems that goes down maybe a two hundred feet or 67 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: so before you hit ground water. But it's like a 68 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: it's hard to describe for people who tend to think 69 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 3: of like the big mammoth cave systems. It's a latticework cave. 70 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 3: So it's like skyscrapers that are buried in the ground 71 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 3: with different floors, and you can move and traverse up 72 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 3: and down these and it can be impossibly difficult. And 73 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 3: so both the book and the Netflix documentary followed us 74 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: over a period of almost a year as we were 75 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: testing the idea of whether we had discovered burials in 76 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 3: a non human species, and that is a species called Homoletti, 77 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 3: which is a very small brained hominin. It's a a 78 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 3: brain slightly larger than a chimpanzee, but it was a 79 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: biped It walked on two legs and existed sort of 80 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: out of time and place. If we looked at a 81 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 3: hominin like that, we would normally think, oh, it's two million, 82 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: two and a half million years old based on its 83 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 3: entire anatomy. It turned out that homon Aletti is much 84 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 3: younger than that, something like two hundred and forty thousand 85 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 3: to three hundred and thirty thousand years before present. So 86 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 3: in finding these possible burials, and we go through that 87 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 3: sort of period of analysis and looking at in this 88 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: deep dark chamber almost three hundred and fifty feet back 89 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: into a system, we knew it was going to be 90 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 3: one of the most controversial things ever said, because until 91 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: that moment of seeing those the idea was that really 92 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 3: only humans and things very much like humans, like neanderthals 93 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 3: Bury their dead. It was our gg, one of the 94 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: last things we had that separated ourselves from the animal 95 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 3: kingdom and animal behavior. And so both the Netflix show 96 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 3: and the book carry us through that period and then 97 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 3: to what I kind of referred to as seventy two 98 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 3: hours of remarkable discovery, where I ended up losing about 99 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 3: fifty five pounds and got down into this incredibly difficult 100 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 3: to get to space where only forty six people had 101 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 3: been before almost died in the process of doing that, 102 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: I needed answers to some questions before we published that 103 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 3: burial paper that really I kind of only had the 104 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 3: broad experience to answer. And it was at that point 105 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 3: that I discovered etchings on the wall, engravings on the wall, 106 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 3: and evidence of fire on the roof. And then that 107 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: kind of broke everything free, because we suddenly realized there 108 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: was evidence of fire everywhere. And so now we're at 109 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 3: this kind of moment where my colleagues and I have 110 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 3: announced to the world that we believe we have discovered 111 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 3: the first non human species culture in history. 112 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: Yes, having watched the documentary and read the book, this 113 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: is all this is just really mind blowing. I'm not 114 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 2: even sure of which direction to start with first, like 115 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: just the sheer challenges of the cave system, or just 116 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: how potentially profound that the discoveries are. I guess I 117 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: guess maybe starting with the setting a little bit before 118 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: you even ventured down there to the main chamber, how 119 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: did you go about carrying out these explorations, like with 120 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: the command center and finding the right people to send 121 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: down there. 122 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 3: So when I was first shown where this material was, 123 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 3: I sent my then fifteen year old, very skinny son 124 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 3: down there to verify that it was real, and I 125 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 3: was shown by these two amateur cavers that I had 126 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 3: enlisted where this was. I knew I would never get 127 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: into that space. You know, if you imagine this vertical 128 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 3: squeeze that that moves in various directions, that squeezes down 129 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 3: to seven and a half inches in places my physic 130 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: I used to choke, my ego would never fit much 131 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: less my physique. I designed a system to work in 132 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 3: the space based on I've been very close friends with 133 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 3: both James Cameron and Bob Ballard and have been admirers 134 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 3: of the way they've handled their expeditions, which include, you know, 135 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 3: sort of deep sea work where you can't often go 136 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 3: to these places. Now James did, of course, and so 137 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 3: is Bob, but you can't often go to these places. 138 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: So they use remote operation. They use you know, tethered 139 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 3: operations and using remote operated vehicles, and so I designed 140 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: a system where I could be in that kind of 141 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: command center. It's also based loosely on NASA as well. 142 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 3: And then I found my own remote operated people, which 143 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 3: I put a Facebook add out, and you know, looking 144 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 3: for skinny scientists that had skills to climb and cave 145 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 3: and work in extreme environments. And I selected six just 146 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: remarkable scientists. It just happened to be women. That journey 147 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 3: has continued and we've constantly advanced the technology. We have 148 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 3: Wi Fi in the cave. Now it's a lot more sophisticated, 149 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 3: but we still have all that hardwiring. It goes in 150 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 3: there and I sit at the top with other scientists 151 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 3: and we monitor and watch over their shoulders and and 152 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 3: help them excavate the few people that could get into 153 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: that space. It's it was. It was a lot of fun, 154 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 3: very dramatic, I'll admit at times frustrating that you know, 155 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 3: I couldn't be there, and they would bring each piece 156 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 3: out after, you know, carefully excavating it, documenting it, and 157 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 3: then it would become part of a broader study it. 158 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: It's an extreme environment. It's an environment that can kill you, 159 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 3: and it's uh and I think it's probably pretty unique 160 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 3: amongst the world's you know, search for human origins, a 161 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 3: pretty unique environment to actually be physically working and constantly 162 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 3: constantly adapting changing, I mean the way you do it. 163 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: I think you can actually see that probably better in 164 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 3: the book than the documentary, where you actually feel as 165 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: we keep adapting things along the way, trying to improvise 166 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 3: and make it better as we hit roadblocks. 167 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I found both the documentary and the book we're 168 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: highly illustrated in different ways. I mean, obviously we're getting 169 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: some of the actual footage in the documentary, but you 170 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: have some some wonderful illustrations in the book that you know, 171 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: just lay out exactly how the cave system is oriented, 172 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: and then your descriptions of when you actually go down 173 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: and then have to ascend back up. That was some 174 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: of that was just very harowing to read. 175 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 3: It gives me PTSD even reading that, and I wrote it. 176 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 3: It was also tough to watch that on the Netflix 177 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 3: stock movie. You you can imagine because the for your listeners, 178 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 3: what ultimately happened was, after deciding that we couldn't go 179 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 3: forward with the Barrel publication until we sort of sorted 180 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 3: out a few critical questions, I decided to make the 181 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 3: attempt in you know, turning fifty seven. It wasn't gonna 182 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 3: be many times I was going to be able to 183 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 3: attempt an extreme journey like this, and so I lost 184 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: the weight got in there. I knew it was going 185 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 3: to be terrible because I've told the world how terrible 186 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 3: it is. I had no idea how awful it was. 187 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 3: And it was a very strange experience. You know. I've 188 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 3: been an explorer all my life, and I've been in 189 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 3: life and death situation several times. But this was different 190 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 3: because I was having to make conscious choices to push 191 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 3: beyond places that I really did know deep in my 192 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 3: mind I might not be able to get back out of. 193 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 3: And those are those are hard. You learn a lot 194 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 3: about yourself and in those sort of moments when you 195 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 3: make a choice like that and and pass through it. 196 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 3: Going down was awful. Coming up was the most terrible 197 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 3: and wonderful thing in my whole life, you know. And 198 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 3: I had to I had to make a decision, you know. 199 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 3: I tried to remove a body part, you know, because 200 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 3: I was stuck and and I'd never been in that 201 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 3: situation before, you know, I'd never been in the kind 202 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 3: of situation where you have to make a deeply a 203 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 3: decision to try and hurt yourself to get out of something, 204 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 3: and you learn you learn a lot about yourself in 205 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 3: that situation too. But I obviously I'm here now. I 206 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 3: obviously did get out, but it's about as close to 207 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: not surviving at e vent as I've ever been. 208 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: Like even the names of sort of the three phases 209 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: to get down to that main chamber, it implies this 210 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 2: kind of my journey. You have, like the Superman crawl, 211 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: which already sounds harrowing. You go up the dragon's back, 212 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 2: which sounds very mythic, but then the shoot, right, the 213 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: shoot is the real choke point here. 214 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 3: That's right. So you know, Superman's crawl, by the way, 215 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 3: is just named because you had to extend one arm 216 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 3: in the kind of flying Superman pose to fit through it. 217 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 3: Most people did. And there was this awful rock in 218 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 3: the middle of it that you had to crawl over. 219 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 3: And then you enter this giant, beautiful chamber dragons back 220 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: and up this jagged series of rocks. It's almost forty 221 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 3: feet tall, which if you fall off, you die, you 222 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: know kind of thing. And then you get to the 223 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: top and you stare down into this crevasse, into this 224 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 3: labyrinth of narrow squeezes and things, and you know, slide 225 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: in there and down you go in a place that 226 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 3: there's no point in it, that rocks aren't pressing on 227 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 3: both sides of your chest, almost no point in it 228 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 3: that you can move maneuver your head anywhere but down 229 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 3: and usually at an angle because it's just narrow enough 230 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 3: to just wide enough to you know, a helmet to fit. 231 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: It's tough, it's it's it's a hard space, but it is, 232 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 3: you know. While I was in there too, though, you 233 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 3: can actually see that home in the LETTI who was 234 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 3: thinner than we were, who had a smaller head than 235 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 3: we were, who had more powerful hands, grasping hands and 236 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 3: powerful shoulders, would have moved through their very different We're 237 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 3: just a bunch of big, clumsy apes in a space 238 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: we're not supposed to be, and they would have, I think, 239 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: moved through there very very differently. 240 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: We think they are. They would have been arboreal, or 241 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 2: more arboreal than the nuts, right, so. 242 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: Careful about ar boreal. Better climbers. Our boreal means trees. 243 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 3: I think they could have done very well in trees, obviously, 244 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 3: and almost certainly climb them. But I think they were 245 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: very good rock climbers. Took and they have these curved 246 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 3: fingers and these powerful joint and they're very light and 247 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 3: build so I think they would have been very very 248 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 3: good rock climbers. 249 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. I love one of the parts in the book 250 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: where you're talking about having to navigate the Shoot and 251 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: you're imagining them moving rather effortlessly through that same space. 252 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know I was. When I was I had 253 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 3: a lot of time in that space, a lot more 254 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: time than I'd like to think about. And you know, 255 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 3: part of what I was doing there was also looking 256 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 3: around and seeing the space in a very different way 257 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 3: when the first explorers had gone in there. The space 258 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: is so narrow that you really can't get cameras in 259 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 3: there to give any reflection about what is. We can't 260 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 3: get basic measuring tools, or we couldn't. We now have 261 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: done that, and so it took on this sort of 262 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: mythical thing of the Shoot that you talk about, and 263 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 3: actually was even drawn by some of our in our 264 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 3: early signific papers as a tube, you know, this vertical 265 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: tube from one place to the other, and it's not 266 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 3: at all. It turns out it's elabyrinth. And I'm not 267 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: sure how that sort of mythology got stuck even into 268 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 3: the science. We're now rewriting that. But that's why I 269 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: call it the Shoot labyrinth. Now it's not a uniform pipe. 270 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 3: Why is all this so important? Because this is one 271 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 3: of the hardest things that people have to understand why 272 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 3: this place especial and why wouldn't Aletti go to all 273 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 3: that effort just to put it's dead in there. I 274 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 3: ha's so many people who who It's very interesting. As 275 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 3: people talk to me about this, they go, but why 276 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 3: would they do that? And you know, I had a 277 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 3: very interesting experience. I was in London recently and I 278 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: was talking to someone about this and we were seeing 279 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 3: up on one of those high buildings in central London 280 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 3: and the cathedrals right right behind it, and their back 281 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 3: was to the cathedral, and I was looking at them, 282 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: and they said, you know, why would anyway? I just 283 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: can't understand why they would go to such effort for 284 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: their dead. And I went, you know, I just gestured 285 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 3: with my hand out the window to this gigantic cathedral. 286 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 3: The tens of thousands of people had built all this 287 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 3: tribute to death, and you know, we go to huge, 288 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 3: huge efforts to deal with that. We built awso warries, 289 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 3: we build catacombs under major cities, we build pyramids, we 290 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 3: build cathedrals, We dig holes six feet in the ground 291 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 3: when there's no need to and put bodies in them. 292 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 3: And yet here we say, as humans go. But why 293 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: would someone go to that extent for their loved ones? 294 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 3: And the answer is because they did. Even though they 295 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 3: didn't have our brain. Even though they didn't you know, 296 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 3: they aren't us, they clearly carried those same emotions and 297 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 3: feelings about death and perhaps the afterlife and things like that, 298 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 3: but certainly the emotions of death and love to to 299 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 3: make sure that their kin did not undergo the often 300 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 3: horrific processes that occur to things that are just left 301 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 3: to the decay process or an a the process of 302 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 3: scavengine that goes on outside, which is not particularly pleasant. 303 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 3: Whatever was their motivation they did that thing. 304 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: Now, as you discussed, there are of course other ways 305 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: that bones can find their way into caves and cave systems. 306 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: How do we eliminate such possibilities as predators bringing bones 307 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: down or water washing them down into the complex. 308 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 3: So that's just from a process of scientific analysis and 309 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: also a process of elimination. If carnivores or scavengers are 310 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 3: dealing with the dead, then they leave marks on them, 311 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: leave tooth marks, scratch marks, they dismember. They're doing it 312 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 3: almost certainly to eat the bodies, you know, because they're 313 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 3: not collecting. Humans are hominins and so that leaves very 314 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 3: character damage. So that doesn't exist on this very very 315 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 3: large sample of home on Letty and we're over thirty individuals, remember, 316 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: and lot thousands of bones, so there's no evidence of that. 317 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 3: So you can eliminate scavengers and predators. Then you get 318 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: to the point of, well, how do you know they 319 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: just all didn't go down there and die? So the 320 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 3: first part of that was, well, if they did, only 321 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: one species did that. That is, they went again and again, 322 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 3: and they did it over time. We can see that 323 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 3: there are events posed, imposed on events imposed on events, 324 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 3: so there's time involved in the accumulation, so that would 325 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 3: be odd, it wouldn't be impossible. But that was actually 326 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 3: for the first several years our initial hypothesis that they 327 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 3: were perhaps being brought there and just left there. It 328 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 3: was only when we then began to see that the 329 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 3: floor was actually not a bone bed, it was actually 330 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 3: sterile floor that then was interrupted by a pit or 331 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 3: a hole dug into the floor. That material was removed, 332 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 3: disrupting part of the sedimentary layers in the floor. A 333 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 3: fleshed body was put in. And the reason we know 334 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 3: that is that parts of bodies are articulated. And you 335 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 3: can see how the body dee compressed itself in the 336 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 3: sediments as it as it as it deteriorated, as the 337 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 3: spaces uh decayed within it. And then that body was 338 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: covered with dirt, the same dirt from the hole. We 339 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 3: can see the mixed up sedimentary layers. And then the 340 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 3: body went underwent natural collapse and decay and the and 341 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 3: the and the material sediment, and we can show all that. 342 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 3: You can show that through the analysis of the sedimentology 343 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: and the structure. Some people I know don't like that, 344 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: and one of the reasons is that simply we consider 345 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 3: calling that a grave or a burial a human thing. 346 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: And so you know, if you don't want to call 347 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 3: it a grave, then it is a hole dug into 348 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 3: the floor with a body in it, covered with dirt. 349 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 3: You can call that what you want, but the implication 350 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 3: is is that they did that. Oh oh sorry, by 351 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 3: the way, sorry you asked about water. Water leaves very 352 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 3: characteristic geological signatures when water moves sediment. Anyone who's been 353 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 3: to a stream can see what happens. When water moves. 354 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 3: You get sorting, you get different sized rocks and pebbles 355 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 3: and things, so there's no sign of that. There's no 356 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 3: significant water movement of anything in that cave system. 357 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 2: Now, in terms of them bringing the dead down through 358 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 2: the cave system to this chamber, it's thought then that 359 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: they would have had fire, they would have had some 360 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 2: sort of light. 361 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 3: So we can see evidence of fire on the roof 362 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 3: of that chamber, their soot blackened into the flow stones 363 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 3: that have grown over it. In fact, while I was 364 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: in the chamber, my colleague doctor Kenelway Mola Panne was 365 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 3: in dragons back doing an excavation and discovered at the 366 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: same moment I was in there a hearth. She uncovered 367 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 3: a hearth where they had been cooking animal remains in 368 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 3: the adjacent chamber. Now that's that's kind of cool, because 369 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 3: there are no animal remains in the dental letti chamber 370 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 3: where the burials are. There are animal remains in the 371 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 3: dragon's back chamber, but there are no dental letti remains 372 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 3: in the Dragon's back chamber. So you've got this this 373 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 3: what appears to be two differential uses of space, one 374 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 3: where they cooked animal remains, the other where they buried 375 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 3: their dead. 376 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: Wow. Now coming back to this, this cross hatch. Tell 377 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,239 Speaker 2: us about this cross hatch you discovered, and I mean, 378 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 2: and there are so many additional follow but like the 379 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 2: similarities to other marks that have been discovered, Like what 380 00:22:58,640 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: are we to make of all of this? 381 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 3: So when I got into the cave, I had one 382 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: of these and it's worth telling that moment again because 383 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 3: it is. It was a really interesting moment. I decided 384 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 3: I was not going to take any digital images or 385 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 3: pictures because I've been watching this thing through a digital 386 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 3: screen for seven years, and so I decided to narrate it, 387 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 3: to just talk. And if you watch Netflix documentary, you'll 388 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 3: actually see me talking into a cell phone as I narrate, 389 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 3: because I think that sometimes you see things better when 390 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 3: you're forced to storytell as you as you, as you 391 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 3: explain things. And I was narrating the space, and it 392 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 3: was clear to me almost immediately that my explorers in 393 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 3: our team, our colleagues, had missed things, and one was 394 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 3: the space had been altered. You could actually see where 395 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: things like flowstones that's a layer of line like a rock, 396 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,479 Speaker 3: had been broken and moved uphill. And so it was 397 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 3: very clear to me that we had misunderstood that they 398 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 3: had interacted with this space. And as I was narrating that, 399 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 3: there's this passageway that runs from where we land just 400 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: after the shoot labyrinth where we land called the hill 401 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 3: Ante Chamber, there's a like a doorway that goes between 402 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: there and the next chamber, which is Deniletti Chamber, another 403 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: burial chamber. And as I looked at that doorway, you 404 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 3: can hear me say, wow, it looks like a door. 405 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 3: It's smaller than I. And then you hear me pause. 406 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 3: Because I'm an archaeologist, you know, I spent my life 407 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 3: around doorways, and what we humans put around doorways always 408 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 3: it's something meaning signs. We tell you what's on the 409 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 3: other side of the doorway, or who's behind the doorway, 410 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: or all the or exit or a bathroom here, or 411 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 3: whatever the signal is. And I saw these non natural 412 00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 3: etchings in the wall. I couldn't believe it. Squares, wreck 413 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 3: you know, rectangles, triangles, equal signs, crosses, right side up 414 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 3: and upside down. And there was even this sort of 415 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 3: fish shape thing that you know that may not be 416 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 3: what their intent of it was, but looks like a 417 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 3: fish shaped thing with an accent, and it appears to 418 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 3: have been covered with some substance, and I could not 419 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 3: believe what I was looking at. And my explorers had 420 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 3: walked right by the And that's largely because pathfinder syndrome. 421 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 3: You know, once people have been in a space, they 422 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 3: develop a sort of backyard syndrome. It becomes too familiar 423 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 3: and you quit looking at the space around you because 424 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 3: you know that it's been seen. 425 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: Uh. 426 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 3: You know, do that experiment at home where you've you know, 427 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 3: if you right now draw your own kitchen from memory 428 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 3: and then draw a place that you've just entered, the 429 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 3: place you've just entered, you'll draw better than your kitchen 430 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 3: because you've you've amalgamated your kitchen into a safe environment, 431 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 3: and you'll be surprised how poorly you you actually do 432 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 3: that that thing. And so I saw that, and I 433 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 3: turned on a black light. I always carry a UV 434 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 3: light with me because many minerals fluorescent caves. And I 435 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 3: had this hallucination. I had this un optical light shift 436 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 3: as they float. You've seen like Queen Scambit or something 437 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 3: where you see the chest pieces move and in the 438 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 3: air above, or a beautiful mind and the equations come. 439 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 3: And that happened to me, and scientifically, I know it happened, 440 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: you know, because I created an optical light shift, like 441 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 3: you do when you look in your rear view mirror 442 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: at night, and you've ever noticed how the headlights float 443 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 3: away from the the light of the headlights. That's a 444 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 3: that's a neural processing thing that's going on in your brain. 445 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: And so I know why it happened, but it freaked 446 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 3: me out completely as it happened. Had to shut the 447 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 3: light off, and I was embarrassed about it. And because 448 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 3: it it, you know, they moved and then and then 449 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 3: later found the hashtag on the way out, which is 450 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 3: it's a it's a cross hatch or that, and it 451 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 3: has these little pounding marks in it where it looks 452 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 3: like it's been pounded hundreds and hundreds of times. You 453 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 3: can see the little pinny and you can see those 454 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 3: in the illustration in the book, all these hundreds of 455 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 3: little pits that are done, you know. And then they 456 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 3: share these similarities. You know. We were having a beer 457 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 3: after I got out of it, and I took one 458 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 3: one cell phone picture while I was down there, and 459 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 3: that was of this cross hatch, and I showed it 460 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 3: to John Hawks and Augustine for winter and I just 461 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: turned it and immediately Augustine leapt up and said, I 462 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 3: need my car keys and he ran away, and I 463 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 3: was like what. And John Hawks started looking like a 464 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 3: teenager on his cell phone, and I'm like holding this, 465 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 3: and I'm like, you know, I almost died to get 466 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 3: this picture at least, And both of them turned around 467 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 3: with their phone simultaneously and showed me the Gibraltar Gorm's 468 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 3: Cave cross hatch etching that had been done by Neanderthal 469 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 3: sixty thousand years ago, and it's the same. And I 470 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 3: remember that moment so vividly because when John I looked 471 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 3: to John's I thought, why is he photo shopping the 472 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 3: crosshatch I just took and making it blue? And then 473 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 3: I realized he doesn't have the picture. I'm the only 474 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 3: one with the picture. And then, you know, the remarkable 475 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 3: thing was these are two people, two of the few 476 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 3: people in the entire planet who physically seen that, and 477 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 3: so their mind immediately went to that. And of course 478 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 3: there are also similarities with the oldest, the oldest geometric 479 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 3: engravings from places like Blumboss that are attributed to Homo 480 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 3: sapiens at seventy eight thousand years Why is that that's 481 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 3: something that we're working on right now. We've assembled a 482 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 3: team of neural scientists, people who study geometric rock guard artists. 483 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: I suspect it's because it's part of the shared mind 484 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 3: of our deep ancestry, and that I suspect that those 485 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 3: shared symbols, which by the way, are all very familiar 486 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 3: to us today, the symbols we use for mathematics, music, 487 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: these type of things, and I suspect that they may 488 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: have something to do with the way we formulate math, 489 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 3: the way we formulate language in sort of a symbolic 490 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 3: way inside of our head. And I think it comes 491 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 3: from very deep time. I think that's the only way 492 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 3: to really explain how they're shared between three species. It 493 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 3: really have almost no connection to each other at those 494 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 3: temporal periods. And also I think, you know, we kind 495 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 3: of knew that must be true, the way geometric rock 496 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 3: art around the world all looks the same, and that 497 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 3: they're clearly something inside of us, and there was something 498 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 3: in the Letti and there's something in Neanderthals. So it's 499 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 3: kind of cool to think, maybe, as this science goes on, 500 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 3: that what those panels inside of that those burial chambers 501 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 3: really are is the Resetta stone to the mind and 502 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: maybe we can begin to unlock that. 503 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just looking at like the comparison, I 504 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: guess like you can imagine that the simplest way of 505 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: looking at it would be like, Okay, I make right 506 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: angles that don't occur in nature that frequently, and this 507 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: kind of marks this as a place where I have, 508 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 2: you know, impressed my will. But then there's there seems 509 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: to be so much else going on with these markings 510 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: in addition to that. 511 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think that part of the fun is that, 512 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 3: you know, we've never really had markings from another species 513 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 3: to compare to. That's always you know, even the Neanderthal ones. 514 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 3: One it's a singular event. And two, although there is 515 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: now begin to emerge some other rock art by Neanderthals, 516 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 3: but they have a big brain, you know, they have 517 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 3: this gigantic, huge brain, and and so they're kind of us. 518 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 3: This is by something that doesn't have our brain. And 519 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 3: so I think part of the real excitement going forward 520 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 3: is going to be what do they mean? Can we 521 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 3: ever know? Oh? What they mean? Now? I have hope 522 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 3: with things like neural imaging, and you know, you've seen 523 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 3: some of these experiments where they can actually visualize what 524 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: the brain is seen. I think that. You know, a 525 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 3: friend of mine, Brian Moure Rescue, who wrote The Immortality Key, 526 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 3: when I showed him some of the images, he was 527 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 3: just having to be in London. He'd just come out 528 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: of this experiment where he was watching people given psychedelics 529 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 3: and and then they were asked to draw what they're seeing, 530 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 3: and they draw those same images. You know there's something 531 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,719 Speaker 3: there and maybe this will be what we need to 532 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 3: break through that. 533 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,719 Speaker 2: Now you talk about the experience of being in in 534 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: that cave, and this is obviously like a novel environment 535 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 2: for you and I guess cardon the pun, but it 536 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: would have also been a novel environment for the homo 537 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: idea as well. Right, do you feel like there is 538 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: and maybe this is just stretching too far? Is there 539 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: any kind of you think there's any kind of like 540 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 2: kinship between like the way you interpret such an environment, 541 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: how your senses adapt to such an environment, and what 542 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: they might have experienced. 543 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 3: You know, I speak about I think the experience of 544 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 3: being in caves a lot in the book, and you 545 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 3: knows caves are not natural to humans. They're not our space. 546 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: Even though we use the term like caveman all the time. 547 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 3: The evidence that humans go deep into cave systems is 548 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 3: a very very recent phenomena by and large. I mean, 549 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 3: there are a few exceptions, but we don't like to 550 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 3: move beyond the twilight zone, you know, where there's still 551 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 3: light filtering in. We just it's just not our space. No, 552 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 3: Letty clearly was much more comfortable in those spaces. Having 553 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 3: said that, when you're in those spaces, and you know, 554 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 3: your whole focus narrows down to artificial lighting, and you 555 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 3: lose a sense of sound because sound isn't very important 556 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 3: to you in those spaces, and so you you lose that, 557 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 3: but your sense of touch is increased, and these things 558 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 3: and and you start seeing these spaces and things in 559 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 3: these artificial lights and fire, by the way, is artificial light. 560 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 3: Of course, they do have an effect on you. And 561 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: I think that you know, if you think about the 562 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 3: spaces that that humans term is symbolic or sacred or whatever, 563 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 3: we're often kind of replicating that the droll like ceilings, 564 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 3: the the idea of disassociation of places that are are 565 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 3: are natural to you. We tend to lower light levels, 566 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 3: you know, and and and change the way that that 567 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 3: your eye is perceiving things, and you know, and flame 568 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 3: is particularly good at that because it can add motion, 569 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 3: and it can add it can add the the pception 570 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 3: of movement in spaces like this, and so so you know, 571 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 3: I think that they are powerful spaces. I don't want, 572 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 3: you know, I'm a scientist. I'm trying to not go there, 573 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 3: but it they do affect you when you're in these spaces, 574 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 3: and particularly when you understand that, you know, as I 575 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 3: guess I did very deeply that you know, they chose 576 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 3: this space, and they chose this space for their dead, 577 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 3: and you'd have to have a pretty cold heart for 578 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 3: that not to affect you when you're in a space 579 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 3: like that. 580 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 2: So it's possible then that that what we're seeing, it 581 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 2: was certainly is a ritual behavior. But then is it 582 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 2: this sort of thing that, at least broadly speaking, like 583 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 2: over time, that ritual takes on other meanings and maybe 584 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: like religious ideas emerge out of that. 585 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 3: I've got to be very careful because you know, there 586 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 3: are thousands of colleagues with daggers on when you use 587 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 3: the word ritual loosely or what it has, because these 588 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 3: have human meaning, and you know, we're dealing with a 589 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 3: non human at least at the grade level of anatomy. 590 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 3: And you're dealing with a non human. So where this 591 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 3: takes you, I don't know. I think that's going to 592 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 3: be part of the next years and decades excitement we're 593 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 3: going to go there. I mean, they have used this 594 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 3: entire subterranean space, they have altered it. We don't have 595 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: evidence that they're living there. What they appear to be 596 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 3: doing is interacting at least at least the deeper spaces 597 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 3: in these ways. And you know, I have some colleagues 598 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 3: who say that must be spirituality and religion. You know, 599 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: it's a form of religion. I don't think we can 600 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 3: be there yet. But you know, the fact is is 601 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 3: that the last couple of decades have shown us the 602 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 3: arrogance of human exceptism. And you know, as we've begun 603 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 3: to actually more openly study animal behavior, we understand now, 604 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 3: of course, that cetaceans have culture, elephants have culture, that 605 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 3: other primates have cultures, that chimps and gorilla certainly have cultures. 606 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 3: And yet we had eliminated that from things that are 607 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 3: closer to us, like Homoletti. And I think we have 608 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 3: to start the field over in some ways, I think 609 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 3: we have to start again. I mean, we had approached 610 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 3: everything is if the null hypothesis of finding a dead 611 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 3: hominine body was natural, you had to explain it naturally 612 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 3: as opposed to the null hypothesis being cultural. And I 613 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 3: think that was a mistake. I think it was a mistake. 614 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 3: And I think a big thing that's going to come 615 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 3: out of this moment in history is a recognition that 616 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 3: we had made an air of the science. We had 617 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 3: deculturized things that clearly must have had culture, and in 618 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 3: doing that, we weren't seeing their cultures. And I will 619 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 3: bet you that what will flow out of this discovery 620 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 3: and this moment is a new acceptance of these ancient 621 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 3: human relatives being cultural beings. And I think that's really 622 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 3: exciting because that will lead us into not missing things 623 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 3: in the way we have missed things before. 624 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now, coming back to the book, particularly and specifically, 625 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 2: you've authored other books before. What really propelled this book 626 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 2: into being? What led you to write and what did 627 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 2: you really want to get out there with Cave of Bones? 628 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 3: So this book started as a completely different book. It 629 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 3: literally started as a follow up, a five year follow 630 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 3: up to almost human which was the first book on 631 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 3: the discovery of Homonoletti and what that meant. And it 632 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 3: was meant to take all of the research that had 633 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 3: been done and kind of the size it to where 634 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 3: we were. And we were in a very strange place 635 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 3: when I began developing the concept of this book with 636 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 3: my co author John Hawks, and that is we had 637 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 3: one of the best known hominine species ever discovered, but 638 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 3: all we had were its bones. And so it was 639 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 3: meant to be this kind of journey around the state 640 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 3: of where we were and ending with this sort of 641 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 3: but we need more. And then the burials were discovered, 642 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 3: and that became the center of the book because you know, 643 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 3: I literally thought when those burials, when we recognized that 644 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 3: those were holes in the ground, dug with bodies and 645 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 3: them covered by dirt from the hole, I thought that 646 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 3: was gonna be the biggest discovery of my life. You know, 647 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 3: here we were, you know, we're right into now this 648 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 3: sacred space of humanity, you know, burial of the dead, 649 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 3: and all the things you talked about that spill out 650 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 3: of that self recognition of mortality, possibly spirituality, all those 651 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 3: things fall deeply from that. And then I got in 652 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 3: the chamber and saw the symbols and you're like, wow, 653 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 3: the fire funny enough, was never surprising. Fire has been 654 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 3: around for millions of years. I mean, of course they 655 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 3: had fire, it just was I had talked our entire 656 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 3: team out of the evidence that the evidence for fire 657 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,800 Speaker 3: was going to be easy to see when it was 658 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 3: right in front of us the entire time. So you 659 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 3: know that's my fault. But you know, the symbols are 660 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 3: are are are different level of stuff. But all that 661 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 3: in combination is the book. And it became a journey, 662 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 3: and the book became very We trashed the first version 663 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 3: of the book and then it became very easy to write, 664 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 3: and actually wrote it very very quickly because it was 665 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 3: a narrative journey of a very deeply personal experience with 666 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 3: the discovery of the species, discovery of the culture around 667 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 3: this species, and in the end it gave me the 668 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,439 Speaker 3: chance to explore meaning and a very in a very 669 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 3: open way and discuss some of these concepts of human 670 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 3: exceptionalism and and where I think this field is going awesome. 671 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 2: Well, the documentary kicks off with with a with a 672 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 2: great sense of mystery and I and I also have 673 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 2: to say, like the book just really like literally throws 674 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 2: you right into the cave. There you are in the cave. 675 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 2: It has a very I think sometimes people might some 676 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 2: listeners might be hesitant to pick up a book about 677 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 2: this topic. But but I mean, really, this one just 678 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 2: throws you right into the cave. It has a very 679 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 2: riveting beginning and just doesn't let go for the entire length. 680 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 3: Thank you for saying so. I mean, it's as I said, 681 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 3: it's it's been a very personal journey for me. It's uh. 682 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 3: And and I think that that you know, there's there's 683 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 3: a lot of meaning in home on No Letti and 684 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 3: a lot of good that humans as individuals can take 685 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 3: out from understanding that that there have been other species 686 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 3: with complex cultures. This thing that we're living right now, 687 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 3: it's neither the first, nor is it some sort of 688 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 3: God given right to be because it's happened before. And 689 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 3: I think that's an important message, you know, the idea 690 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 3: that you know, because I think that anyone who looks 691 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 3: around the planet understands that the idea of human exceptionalism 692 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 3: is part of why we do so much damage to 693 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 3: this place. We think we own it, and we think 694 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 3: it was given to us, and by learning that there 695 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 3: have been other experiments in this you know, maybe we 696 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 3: should step off of that high force or stool or 697 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 3: whatever and step down a little bit, as we kind 698 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 3: of are at this critical moment in human history where 699 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 3: literally the balance of life on this planet is at 700 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,919 Speaker 3: stake because of us. 701 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 2: All right, well, we have we have the book, we 702 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: have the documentary, the additional books. Where else can listeners 703 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 2: go to learn more and or follow your work? 704 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 3: Right? So, you can follow me on Twitter at Lee 705 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 3: or Berger. I'm also on Facebook at Prof Lee Burger, 706 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 3: and if you follow National Geographic. You know, we're there 707 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 3: a lot, a lot of presents in that space, and 708 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 3: there's going to be more so, you know, and there 709 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 3: are the older writings. You know, it's quite fun if 710 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,280 Speaker 3: you go back and read Skull in the Rock, Almost Human, 711 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 3: and then this chapter because it's kind of a narrative 712 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 3: of the history of this science, and even further back 713 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 3: Footsteps of Eve, which was in the nineteen nineties, where 714 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 3: you can actually kind of understand the evolution of this 715 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 3: whole science over the last thirty plus years that at 716 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 3: least from my perspective that I've experienced it in you know, 717 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 3: what has got to be the greatest age of exploration 718 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:52,760 Speaker 3: we're living through right now. 719 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thank you once more for coming on the 720 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 2: show talking about your work, the book, the documentary. It's 721 00:42:59,520 --> 00:42:59,919 Speaker 2: been a play. 722 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 3: It's great to be here. 723 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 2: Thanks again to Lee Berger for coming on the show. 724 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 3: Here. 725 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,320 Speaker 2: The book again is Cave of Bones, a true story 726 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 2: of discovery, adventure, and human origins, and it's out now 727 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 2: in physical, digital, and audio formats. The documentary Unknown Cave 728 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 2: of Bones is currently streaming on Netflix. Thanks as always 729 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 2: to the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and 730 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 2: if you want to reach out to us, you can 731 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 732 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 2: dot com. 733 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 734 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 735 00:43:42,440 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 736 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 2: Four Fox