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Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.

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Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement it. They get lost

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Speaker 2: along the way and forget what their job really is.

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Speaker 2: He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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Speaker 2: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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Speaker 2: it was for my body to be found in any

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Speaker 2: alley of New York City.

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Speaker 1: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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Speaker 1: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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Speaker 1: They do that. They'll give a guy a life sentence

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Speaker 1: and go home in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.

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Speaker 2: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to

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Speaker 2: something that you didn't do? My question to them will

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Speaker 2: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill

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Speaker 2: your life? The judge, he said, how you feel? I said,

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Speaker 2: I'm okay. He said, well, the days you're lucky day

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Speaker 2: you're going home.

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Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 3: Jason Flam Today. I have a guest who I've wanted

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Speaker 3: to have on the show ever since. I saw a

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Speaker 3: picture of him having his first meal after he was

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Speaker 3: released after twenty years in prison, and he had this

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Speaker 3: smile on his face that was just pure joy. It

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Speaker 3: looked like. So we'll hear more about that, and I

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Speaker 3: want to welcome you.

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Speaker 4: Angel Gonzalez, Wakegan man who spent the last two decades

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Speaker 4: in prison, could soon be set free. New DNA evidence

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Speaker 4: identifies two other men who committed the nineteen ninety four

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Speaker 4: rape and kidnapping he was imprisoned for it.

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Speaker 5: Sell Us exonerated by DNA evidence that showed he couldn't

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Speaker 5: have been one of the two men who kidnapped and

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Speaker 5: raped the woman in Walkeegan in nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 6: In two thousand and one, DNA testing identified one male

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Speaker 6: profile that did not match Gonzales, and just last week,

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Speaker 6: further testing pointed to an additional man.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't until lawyers from an innocence project took up

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Speaker 5: his case and a change in leadership in the Lake

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Speaker 5: County States Attorney's Office that DNA testing was conducted.

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Speaker 6: The forty one year old initially confessed to the crime

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Speaker 6: after a lengthy police interrogation, and the victim identified him

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Speaker 6: at the time, but Gonzalez has long maintained his innocence.

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Speaker 5: His attorney say Gonzalez head in alibi and no criminal history,

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Speaker 5: and after a lengthy interrogation, he signed a confession written

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Speaker 5: by Wakegan police in English, despite only speaking Spanish at

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Speaker 5: the time.

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Speaker 7: Freedom for a Man released Brockrison after serving nearly twenty

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Speaker 7: one years for a crime he did not commit. On

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Speaker 7: Hell Gonzalez walked out of the Dixon Correctional Facility.

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Speaker 5: Tonight, twenty years after entering prison. Gonzalez, he's free.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having here.

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Speaker 3: And we have another special guest today, the director of

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Speaker 3: post conviction litigation at the Innocence Project, Vanessa Podkin.

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Speaker 7: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: We're here to talk about a case that is troubling

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Speaker 3: in so many ways in that it has elements of misconduct,

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Speaker 3: it has elements of a thing called the show up. Right,

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Speaker 3: when we talk about the show up which is something

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Speaker 3: we haven't really focused on the show before, and various

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Speaker 3: other things, Miranda right, come into play how those were administered.

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Speaker 3: But before we get into all of that, let's go

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Speaker 3: back to nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 1: I was leaving at the time in waki And, Illinois,

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Speaker 1: which is about forty five mins north of Chicago, Lake.

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Speaker 3: County, Right, and you were how old were you at

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Speaker 3: the time?

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Speaker 1: I was around twenty.

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Speaker 3: Right, so just getting started on your life.

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Speaker 1: Just getting started planning on getting married. Well, this's American dream,

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Speaker 1: finally start planning for starting a family. At the time,

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Speaker 1: talk to my ex girlfriend father and mother and us

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Speaker 1: if we could marry, and they have I guess, And

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Speaker 1: so it was met out of time and to save

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Speaker 1: a little money and find a place to move. So

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Speaker 1: everything seems like it was they were supposed to be

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Speaker 1: for any normal person to get married and move on

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Speaker 1: in life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's actually a very honorable to go to

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Speaker 3: the father and ask permission and everything else. On July

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Speaker 3: tenth of nineteen ninety four, everything was sort of typical.

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Speaker 3: I imagine for you you were visiting your girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they we went out, stopped by her friend's

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Speaker 1: house and decided to go eat something, and we went

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Speaker 1: out and eat on a fast food restaurant. After they

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Speaker 1: we went to her sister's apartment. So we went there

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Speaker 1: and watched movie Tonight. And that's what this or what

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Speaker 1: crime happened.

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Speaker 3: So unbeknownst to you, in the same apartment complex, something

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Speaker 3: terrible was taking place, right, and Vanessa wantly turned to

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Speaker 3: you for a minute, do you want to talk about

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Speaker 3: the crime itself?

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Speaker 8: Absolutely so. There was a woman who lived in this

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Speaker 8: same kind of small apartment building who was at her house.

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Speaker 8: She heard somebody buzzing her doorbell, went downstairs, and there

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Speaker 8: were who she would later describe as two Latino men

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Speaker 8: who abducted her into a vehicle and drove her to

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Speaker 8: two different locations in the neighborhood where they sexually assaulted her.

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Speaker 8: And ultimately she was able to escape, and she was

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Speaker 8: very dazed and traumatized by the incident, understandably so, and

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Speaker 8: ultimately made her way to seven eleven, where she was

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Speaker 8: able to summon the police and they brought her back

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Speaker 8: to the apartment where they started to investigate the crime,

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Speaker 8: and later her boyfriend, the victim's boyfriend, came on the

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Speaker 8: scene and started talking to the police and trying to

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Speaker 8: see if he could be helpful in any way.

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Speaker 3: Right, and that's where this starts to unravel, because you

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Speaker 3: just wrong place, wrong time. Were in the apartment complex

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Speaker 3: at some point you got into your car, right, presumably

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Speaker 3: to go back to your place, that's correct.

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Speaker 1: How do we watch a movie and we're about to

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Speaker 1: wrap it up and go home, and when we walked

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Speaker 1: up the apartment if you can run it correctly. There

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Speaker 1: were some squad cars on the left side of the building,

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Speaker 1: and you know, a small town like well, something obviously happened.

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Speaker 1: Maybe who knows in the building. It's an apartment building.

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Speaker 1: They didn't really are business, so we don't stay or ask.

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Speaker 1: We just got in the car and decide to leave.

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Speaker 1: And I drove to the gas station, put on some gas,

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Speaker 1: and went on my way to drop off my girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: And next thing you know, I was pull over. Right

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Speaker 1: after I drop off my girlfriend now her house, I

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Speaker 1: was pulled over, and I had no clue why it happened.

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Speaker 3: And what we know that happened is that the victim's

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Speaker 3: boyfriend saw your car, maybe out the window or whatever

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Speaker 3: it was, and for some reason or other, this triggered

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Speaker 3: something in him to think that this might be I

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Speaker 3: don't know how he would have had any idea that

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Speaker 3: this car was in some way related to her abduction

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Speaker 3: and rape, but obviously he was wrong. But nonetheless, that's

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Speaker 3: what led the police to go looking for you, is

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Speaker 3: that he had seen the car and somehow made some

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Speaker 3: assumption he saw the.

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Speaker 8: Car, and the victim had given a very rough description

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Speaker 8: of a large, dark sedan that was that she was

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Speaker 8: abducted in and he's outside, the victim's boyfriend with the police,

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Speaker 8: and from a distance sees Angel in his car, which

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Speaker 8: was a dark car, driving off, and the victim's boyfriend

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Speaker 8: says to the police, Hey, that car doesn't belong here.

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Speaker 7: So it's one of these things that.

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Speaker 8: You know, this is a car that's not usually seen

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Speaker 8: in the apartment complex. And since Angel leaves, the police

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Speaker 8: just write down the license plate number, and then that's

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Speaker 8: why he's later stopped.

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Speaker 7: You know, some time and some miles away.

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Speaker 8: But of course, you know, when Angel's driving away from

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Speaker 8: the scene, his girlfriend's sitting in the front seat with him.

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Speaker 8: You know, he's taking his girlfriend home. They've just left

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Speaker 8: the girlfriend's sister's house. And even from an investigative perspective

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Speaker 8: at the time, what sense would it make for the

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Speaker 8: perpetrator to return to the area an hour or two

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Speaker 8: later from the same place that he just abducted somebody

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Speaker 8: from when the police are around, you know, it'd make

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Speaker 8: a little sense that the perpetrator would return. But nonetheless,

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Speaker 8: acting only on the suspicion the boyfriend's suspicion that the

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Speaker 8: car didn't belong there, they pulled the Angel over.

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Speaker 3: Right he was Hispanic. That was close enough in this case,

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Speaker 3: and then starts the process that we talk about a

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Speaker 3: lot on the show, which is unique in this case

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Speaker 3: just because of the fact that Angel was read his

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Speaker 3: Miranda rights in a language he didn't speak very well

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Speaker 3: at the time. Right, he was read them in English

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Speaker 3: when your English was not good at that time. And

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Speaker 3: now you speak fluently obviously, But did you understand at

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Speaker 3: the time what they were telling you?

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Speaker 1: Not at all. I don't have no no clue what

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Speaker 1: was going on. When I got pulled over, it was well,

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Speaker 1: some kind of traffic problem, something wrong with the car

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Speaker 1: had lighter, But I don't have no clue on what

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Speaker 1: was going on until they bringing temporary to the courtroom

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Speaker 1: after I went for a bond hearing. There's one kind

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Speaker 1: of stun to what was going on, and you kind

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Speaker 1: of want to scream if it wasn't me, but you

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Speaker 1: don't steal, like, well, there's got to be some kind

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Speaker 1: of confusion. He's going to be meta day suntil they said, well,

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Speaker 1: there's not a.

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Speaker 3: Guy, because this is America, America, this isn't that don't

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Speaker 3: happen in America. But so when you were read you

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Speaker 3: were Miranda rights in the language that you didn't understand

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Speaker 3: or speak very well, and you didn't at that time

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Speaker 3: know why you were there, right, right, So let's think

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Speaker 3: about that for a second. Right, if someone gets picked

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Speaker 3: up and thinks that they're there for whether you speak

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Speaker 3: English or not, and no matter if they read it

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Speaker 3: to you in Portuguese, the fact is that if you

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Speaker 3: are picked up and you think that it's just a

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Speaker 3: minor violation of something that you're going to go to

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Speaker 3: traffic court or whatever might be, why would you need

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Speaker 3: a lawyer. I mean, you wouldn't even want a lawyer

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Speaker 3: and pay for a lawyer, and you wouldn't want to

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Speaker 3: wait for a lawyer. You probably want to get it

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Speaker 3: done and so you could go home. But it worked

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Speaker 3: the next day. So it's a very bad moment in

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Speaker 3: time when you don't have that you need in order

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Speaker 3: to make a decision that is actually life or death.

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Speaker 3: But you're just being given totally in complete information, if

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Speaker 3: any at all, and you're being read something you don't understand.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it's not set up to get to a

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Speaker 3: very good conclusion. It's not set up to protect the

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Speaker 3: person who's meant.

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Speaker 8: To protect absolutely, and you have compounded the fact that

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Speaker 8: Angel and his family recently had emigrated here, he wasn't

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Speaker 8: familiar with the US system and barely spoke the language,

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Speaker 8: so all of those barriers also existed, and he's not

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Speaker 8: being given information as to what happened or why he's

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Speaker 8: being questioned.

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Speaker 7: Police did say to him, where.

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Speaker 8: Were you, and he explains where he was. He says

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Speaker 8: that keeps with his girlfriend, that they went to the

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Speaker 8: girlfriend's sister's house. And at some point during this interrogation,

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Speaker 8: which lasted many hours, police actually stopped and went out

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Speaker 8: to follow up a bit on Angel's alibi.

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Speaker 7: But they didn't.

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Speaker 8: Follow up on the alibi in order to see if

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Speaker 8: he could be exonerated and you know, whether or not

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Speaker 8: he committed the crime.

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Speaker 7: They actually used it.

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Speaker 8: They used it as a tool to trick him, you know,

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Speaker 8: into trying to give an inculpatory statement. And so they

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Speaker 8: went back to him and they lied to him and

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Speaker 8: they said, we looked into your alibi and it didn't

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Speaker 8: pan out. Nobody's supporting your alibi, which was just a lie.

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Speaker 8: But of course, as you know, it's completely constitutional and

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Speaker 8: acceptable for police to lie to a suspect and to

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Speaker 8: say they have fingerprints or you know, say that they

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Speaker 8: have evidence that they don't have in order to try

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Speaker 8: to get the suspect to confess. We call it the

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Speaker 8: false evidence ploy. It's a huge problem in false confession

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Speaker 8: cases because, in a sense is a risk factor for

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Speaker 8: false confessions. You think, oh, this will sort itself out later.

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Speaker 8: You don't ask for the lawyer because you know you

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Speaker 8: didn't do it, and you just want to You're not

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Speaker 8: thinking I need to protect my rights. I just want

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Speaker 8: to tell you, and once I give my side of

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Speaker 8: the story, you'll understand you have the wrong person.

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Speaker 7: And of course it doesn't end that way.

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Speaker 3: Right, and it's it's legally acceptable but morally reprehensible. Absolutely,

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Speaker 3: And he had all the information at his disposal, so

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Speaker 3: he would have had every reason to believe that he

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Speaker 3: would have been protected by the truth. But that's unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: as we know, that's not how it works in too

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Speaker 3: many cases. And his is really a perfect example that

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Speaker 3: there was another factor too, which was sleep. Right, because

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Speaker 3: you were there for quite a while, right, you're picked

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Speaker 3: up at night, right, so you're probably a little tired, right,

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Speaker 3: stressed obviously from the situation. How long did this go

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Speaker 3: on for and how and what effect did that have

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Speaker 3: on your ability to make you know, reasonable decisions.

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Speaker 1: Well, after I got to the police station. At one

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Speaker 1: point you lose track of time. I don't remember exactly

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Speaker 1: how many hours, what was day or night anymore. Just

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Speaker 1: do what you have to do. Let me get out

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Speaker 1: of here. Some tired. I want to go sleep, I

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Speaker 1: want to eat, I want to drink something. It is

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Speaker 1: something they ill steal. Don't understand myself. Sometimes when you

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Speaker 1: is so tired, you just want to everything wain like,

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Speaker 1: do what you have to do, Just get me out

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Speaker 1: of here.

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Speaker 3: Right. Well, that's a common thing too, Vanessa. Right when

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Speaker 3: you end up in that tiny room, you're basically trapped.

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Speaker 3: You can't go anywhere, you have no access to anyone

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Speaker 3: to help you, and you're overmatched, and they have everything

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Speaker 3: on their side. They can lie, they can keep you

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Speaker 3: awake for as long as they want. They can they

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Speaker 3: can make you hungry, they can stress you out, but

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Speaker 3: you're already stressed out enough. One of the other aspects

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Speaker 3: of the case that I wanted to talk about is

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Speaker 3: to show up because one of the reasons that Angel

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Speaker 3: was wrongfully identified misidentified was because of the way that

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Speaker 3: he was first viewed by the victim right or the witness,

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Speaker 3: which I guess was the boyfriend. Can you talk about

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Speaker 3: that little bit?

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Speaker 8: Absolutely so ironically, he was basically across the street from

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Speaker 8: the jail and courthouse on his way home when he

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Speaker 8: was pulled over by police. And as he mentioned, he

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Speaker 8: didn't know why he was being pulled over. He thought

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Speaker 8: was at a traffic stop, you know, where they checking

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Speaker 8: his license. He was a bit perplexed as to what

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Speaker 8: was going on. And the police called back to the victim,

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Speaker 8: who was at the scene with other officers back at

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Speaker 8: her apartment complex, and they decided to do what's called

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Speaker 8: the show up procedure, and essentially, officers brought the victim

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Speaker 8: to the area where they had pulled Angel over, and

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Speaker 8: the victim was seated in a patrol car, and they

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Speaker 8: brought Angel in handcuffs with an officer standing next to him.

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Speaker 8: And this is late at night, and so they have

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Speaker 8: their headlights on and so that's the lighting. And they

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Speaker 8: take Angel right in front of the car where the

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Speaker 8: victim is, and while he's handcuffed and next to an officer,

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Speaker 8: they say.

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Speaker 7: To her, is this the man? Now?

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Speaker 8: It's a highly suggestive procedure, of course, because what's the expectation.

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Speaker 8: The expectation is that they caught the guy who did this,

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Speaker 8: and those type of procedures show up should only be

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Speaker 8: used in very exceptional circumstances, and here there was absolutely

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Speaker 8: no excuse to do a show up because.

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Speaker 7: They were across the street from the jail.

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Speaker 8: They could, you know, if they wanted to do a

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Speaker 8: lineup procedure with Angel, they could have said, will you

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Speaker 8: come with us over to the jail and put together

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Speaker 8: five or six people and got people who matched the

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Speaker 8: victim's initial description and done a procedure that would have

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Speaker 8: been fair. But they didn't do that, and they conducted

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Speaker 8: this highly suggestive procedure and she said, yeah, that's him,

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Speaker 8: which was almost inevitable based on the circumstances.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you'd identify almost anybody at that point because

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Speaker 3: it just looks like, well, wait a minute, the guy's

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Speaker 3: in handcuffs, the cops got him, he's in my neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: You're hispanic, good enough?

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Speaker 8: Right?

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Speaker 3: Who cares? I mean, so you don't look like the guy,

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Speaker 3: but your mind is not right at that point anyway.

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Speaker 3: And it's unbelievable that that is accepted procedure because it's

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Speaker 3: just begging for mistakes to happen.

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Speaker 8: To add insult to injury. They told the victim before

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Speaker 8: she viewed Angel, we got somebody who matches the description

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Speaker 8: of the person and driving a similar car.

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Speaker 7: As you've reported. So we're going to bring you over

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Speaker 7: to take.

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Speaker 3: A look at him, right done. I mean you had

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Speaker 3: no chance at that point in the general was totally stacked

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Speaker 3: and you had no chance. In Angel's case, there were

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Speaker 3: a lot of irregularities, to put it nicely, in the

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Speaker 3: way that his confession was recorded and the way it

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Speaker 3: was documented, and if you could just touch on that

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Speaker 3: for a second, because it's important for people to know.

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Speaker 3: I think people would like to think that when a

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Speaker 3: confession is made, it's like the guy just sits there.

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Speaker 3: He has a guilty conscience. He goes, I did it.

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Speaker 3: I feel bad. I want to tell the truth. But

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Speaker 3: in this case, it was fraught with problems and error.

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Speaker 8: Right, So they brought Angel in. They had him there overnight.

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Speaker 8: He really didn't know what he was there for. You know,

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Speaker 8: the next morning, I believe it was, they start the

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Speaker 8: formal interrogation process, and you know, at that time, Angel's saying,

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Speaker 8: I was with my girlfriend last night. We went and

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Speaker 8: saw her sister. He gives his alibi. The officer leaves

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Speaker 8: at one point claiming that he's going to go try

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Speaker 8: to check out Angel's alibi, and that's when he comes

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Speaker 8: back and essentially lies to Angel and says, your albi

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Speaker 8: doesn't check out. And you know, when you confront somebody

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Speaker 8: with false evidence, people starts to feel overwhelmed and a

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Speaker 8: sense of hopelessness, and let me get out of this situation.

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Speaker 8: And they keep pressuring him, and basically the officer even

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Speaker 8: testified at trial that they told him what happened.

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Speaker 7: So they gave.

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Speaker 8: Angel the facts of the crime. You know, he didn't

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Speaker 8: know the facts, they gave it to him. And all

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Speaker 8: this interrogation is happening, in the first instance, in English,

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Speaker 8: and he doesn't speak English very well, so they're interrogating

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Speaker 8: him in English, and then they ask him to write

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Speaker 8: out a statement, and so he writes something out in Spanish,

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Speaker 8: and though he's been given bits and pieces from the police,

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Speaker 8: he doesn't he didn't do it. So he doesn't know

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Speaker 8: the details of the crime. So the statement that he

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Speaker 8: writes is just totally irrelevant, you know, it just wouldn't

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Speaker 8: hold water. And so at that point, they bring somebody

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Speaker 8: in who's Spanish speaking, and you know, interrogate him for

358
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Speaker 8: much more time until they finally produce a statement that's

359
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Speaker 8: written in English typewritten, I believe in English that they

360
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,199
Speaker 8: get him to sign without translating it into Spanish. So

361
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Speaker 8: there's everything is wrong with this interrogation.

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Speaker 9: And they didn't videotape the process at all, right, the

363
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Speaker 9: only video that they produced was the video of him

364
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Speaker 9: being read his Miranda rights at a time when he

365
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,159
Speaker 9: didn't understand what the hell they were talking about or

366
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Speaker 9: why he was there.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, and you would hope that the courts would

368
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 3: look at this and go, wait, there's all kinds of

369
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Speaker 3: problems here. This is yes, it's a confession, but where's

370
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Speaker 3: the where's the beef? You know?

371
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Speaker 8: I think that this happened, you know, in nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 8: and here we are decades later, and we've had three

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Speaker 8: hundred and fifty dnaxonerations, and the statistics are one in

374
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Speaker 8: four of those people who were wrongfully convicted falsely confessed

375
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Speaker 8: to crimes that they were completely innocent of. And even

376
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Speaker 8: though we have those numbers and so much has been

377
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Speaker 8: revealed about false confessions, there still is this attitude prevalent

378
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Speaker 8: among courts and people in the system, and even to

379
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,679
Speaker 8: some extent the general public, that if you confessed, you

380
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 8: did it, and people think.

381
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Speaker 7: Of themselves and whatever strength or.

382
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Speaker 8: Fortitude they think they have, and how they would respond, Oh,

383
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Speaker 8: I would never confess to something I didn't do, even

384
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Speaker 8: if I was interrogated.

385
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Speaker 7: And so we still find that.

386
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Speaker 8: People have trouble believing that somebody would admit to something

387
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Speaker 8: that they didn't do, so they don't give it the

388
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Speaker 8: scrutiny that you're just talking about. You know, nobody stops

389
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 8: in the system to say, hey, this doesn't make sense.

390
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,440
Speaker 8: And right now, really the only screening that courts do

391
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 8: for whether a confession should be admitted is whether or

392
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 8: not it's voluntary. Did you get your miranda rights and

393
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 8: knowingly waive them? Nobody looks at is this reliable? No

394
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 8: court is doing a pre screening before trial to say,

395
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 8: are there too many discrepancies between the facts, This is

396
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,159
Speaker 8: story does not make sense, and if so, we're not

397
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Speaker 8: going to allow this evidence. In and Angel's case happened

398
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Speaker 8: in a jurisdiction Lake County, Illinois, Waukegan that had many

399
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Speaker 8: other wrongful convictions, Some of them false confessions, and of

400
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 8: course it's Chicago's not too far away with the torture

401
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 8: cases and real legacy of feeding and coercing false confessions

402
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,159
Speaker 8: out of people. But it doesn't need to be that

403
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 8: type of physical coercion, you know, as we see just

404
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 8: presenting false evidence or using some of these other techniques

405
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 8: that police do. You know, you just pointed out if

406
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 8: you have experienced with the system, maybe know not to

407
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 8: talk to the police. But if you don't and you

408
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 8: go in there and the police say, just tell me

409
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 8: what happened, you just need to talk to me, and

410
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 8: I'm going to help you. Some people believe that or

411
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 8: it's not going to be as bad if you tell

412
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 8: me now, and they start throwing out scenarios and lead

413
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,720
Speaker 8: people to believe if I just give them something, I

414
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 8: can get out of this stressful situation. And because I'm innocent,

415
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 8: people will find it out as the system goes on.

416
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Speaker 3: So it all conspires to end up in a situation

417
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 3: like you Angel found yourself in when in June of

418
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five, you ended up in court facing what

419
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 3: ultimately might as well have been a death sentence because

420
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 3: you were sentenced to fifty five years in prison for

421
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 3: something you didn't have anything to do with, didn't understand,

422
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 3: and didn't know about. What was that like?

423
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Speaker 1: Here you are being sentenced to fifty five years in

424
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,239
Speaker 1: life for a crime you don't call me. You know,

425
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 1: there's something that scare you for life. I've been accused

426
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 1: of such a horrible crime. I used to think and say, well,

427
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: I wish at least we have been accused of all

428
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 1: the kind of crime, not a raven and kidnapping a female.

429
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: And when you leave there, it's just you start learning

430
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 1: to live like some kind of animal. The all the

431
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: bigger animals want to eat. So you have to watch

432
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: yourself everywhere you go, what time, who's around you. And unfortunately,

433
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 1: to this day, as to do it sometimes always what

434
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: I'm going, who I'm going with, what they're going to

435
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: think of me? But is something there I don't wish

436
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: up for nobody. He really messed you up mentally.

437
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 3: And physically, I'm sure too. But the you know, the

438
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 3: crazy irony of that situation too, is that here we

439
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 3: have a guy right who was so honorable that he

440
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 3: was asking his girlfriend's father, is it okay if I

441
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 3: propose to your daughter? He wasn't sleeping with her before

442
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 3: the wedding, right, really an old fashioned, like, you know,

443
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 3: very honorable, there's no other way to describe it. And

444
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 3: then to be convicted of the most dishonorable crime, right,

445
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 3: one of them that you could be convicted of, right,

446
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 3: other than doing it to a child. There's nothing, you know,

447
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 3: that's probably more sort of despicable that you can think

448
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 3: of than raping and kidnapping and raping a woman. And

449
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 3: so it's really sort of a cruel twist of fate

450
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 3: that this would happen to somebody like you, who is

451
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:26,959
Speaker 3: the last person in the world that would ever be

452
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 3: involved with something like this based on what we know

453
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 3: about about you, Angel. So it really gets interesting from

454
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 3: a legal perspective, right, and from an innocent perspective. In

455
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 3: two thousand and one, because after having been in now

456
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 3: for six years, in this terrible situation, being in a

457
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 3: maximum security prison, as someone who's been convicted of these

458
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 3: terrible crimes, you got to break. The DNA was found

459
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 3: and it didn't match.

460
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 8: Right, So there was a first round of DNA testing

461
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 8: that happened in two thousand and one, and they were

462
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 8: able through the testing to find sperm evidence and get

463
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 8: a DNA profile for it, and Angel was absolutely excluded

464
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 8: as the source of that profile. But because two people

465
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 8: had committed the crime, the state took the position, well,

466
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 8: this sperm must come from the other person that we

467
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 8: never caught, the second assailant, and so these DNA test

468
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 8: results don't prove your innocence, and it would be I

469
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 8: guess another thirteen years until that day would come.

470
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 3: I mean, what kind of science is that, right? It

471
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 3: seems to me. I'm not a scientist, but it seems

472
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 3: to me that if the DNA wasn't there just because

473
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 3: there was two assailants, your DNA would still have to

474
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 3: be there, would it not. It might be mixed in

475
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 3: or whatever, but there would be some traces of Angel's

476
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 3: DNA at the scene if he had been one of

477
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 3: the rapists.

478
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 8: Well, I guess arguably someone would say, how do you

479
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 8: know that the second assailant didn't wear a condom or

480
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 8: maybe didn't ejaculate and didn't leave any of their DNA.

481
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 8: I mean, nowadays DNA is so sensitive that if people

482
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 8: have sexual contact or even with touch DNA there's you know,

483
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 8: studies that are done on handshaking and after ten seconds

484
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 8: of handshaking. You could get enough DNA just by swabbing

485
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 8: somebody's hand who they shook hands with.

486
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 7: So it's very sensitive today.

487
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 8: So theoretically, was there a possibility that that semen could

488
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 8: have belonged to the second assailant?

489
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 3: I think so the things are mounting, right. There's all

490
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: the things that we talked about with the and in fact,

491
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 3: in your trial, Angel, there were witnesses that testified on

492
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 3: your behalf. You know, we've seen so many INNSIS project

493
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 3: clients where the quarter pointed attorney didn't even bother to

494
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: call witnesses, or there weren't any witnesses or what else.

495
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 3: In your case, there were witnesses who got up on

496
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 3: the stand and said, no, he was with me, he

497
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 3: couldn't have done this crime. So you have that, now

498
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: you have the DNA six years later that emerges. That's like, well, okay,

499
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 3: So as DNA's not there, the prosecution at that point

500
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 3: has to know that the case is falling apart, right right.

501
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 8: These two thousand and one DNA test results came about

502
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 8: at a time when in Lake County there was a

503
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 8: prosecutor named Michael murmu who was the chief of the

504
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 8: Felony Division for many years there and he basically just

505
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 8: didn't believe in science.

506
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 3: So how frustrating is this angel. You're in this impossible situation,

507
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 3: a peaceful guy stuck in the very violent prison where

508
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 3: people don't have respect for you. They don't respect for anybody,

509
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: but particularly for you because of the fact of the

510
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 3: nature of the crime that you were convicted of. And

511
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 3: now your hopes are raised as you're trying to survive

512
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: day to day. Your hopes were raised by knowing that

513
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: this testing had been done, which proved what you had

514
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 3: been saying all along, but nobody was listening that you

515
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 3: weren't the guy. And now you get a phone call

516
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: and they say, well, even though it proves that you're innocent,

517
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 3: you're still stuck here. I mean, how did you deal

518
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 3: with that?

519
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: What I used to prom my mind is I have

520
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: to be strong for my mother, and I believe this

521
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: is what keep me fighting because you always believe in me,

522
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: even with a lot of the people dot it like, well,

523
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,239
Speaker 1: if the law systems say that you did it, well,

524
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: there's the law system. We kind of have to believe them.

525
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: It's just just saying you don't commit the crime. But

526
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: at the end, and to this day, I look at

527
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: my mom and that's what keeps me going when I

528
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: have rough days like I can deal with this no more.

529
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: It's just hard. But I look at my mom color

530
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: and I keep moving on. When you find yourself in

531
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: a situation like that, for me, it's going to prison.

532
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: I don't reully convicted. It don't matter what you go

533
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: through in life. You got to find something. And my

534
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: kids it was my mom something to move along to

535
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: keep on fighting. And sometimes you feel like you're in

536
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: a war, but you don't have no weapons, so you

537
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: got to find some kind of weapons. Like I said,

538
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: in my case, it was my mom. I have to

539
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: do it to show my mother that I don't commit

540
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: this crime, even though when she told me always I

541
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: know you don't commit the crime. I don't raise the

542
00:27:59,080 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: kind of person.

543
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 3: Ultimately, you, somehow or other got in touch with the

544
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 3: Innocence Project. How did that happen? How did you find out?

545
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 3: How did you get in touch? How did you learn

546
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 3: that they were taking your case?

547
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of weird how everything evolved to find

548
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: out about the Innocence Project. I kind of lost my

549
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: mind for a while when I got to prison and

550
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: I got in trouble. I was punished and sent to

551
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: a segregation and after I finished, during the time, they

552
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: moved me to another building and I meet an old man.

553
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: They asked he I'm still looking for him. His name

554
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: I used to call him in prison old Tea. This

555
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: guy he was on his probably close to his sixties.

556
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: He used to work in the low library. And we

557
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: started again and asked him a little bit about the

558
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: best way I could about the system and splaindly to

559
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: bit what's going on. And he said, well, you have

560
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: any papers, any transcripts or something that I can look at,

561
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: because anybody say that, But luckily for me, I have

562
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: some transcripts of the appeal if I can rema correctly.

563
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: So I showed him to him, and within a couple

564
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: of days probably he read them. And he told me,

565
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: he said, well, you know that I see a lot

566
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: of problems with your case. He said, I'm not an attorney,

567
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: but I know an organization they do take cases like yours,

568
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: and his name is the Innocence Project out of New York.

569
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: And I said, if you want me to, we can

570
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: write them a letter. Because by the time where the

571
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: prison was on lockdown and we don't have access to

572
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: go to the library to get the right form to

573
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: fill up. So I said, sure, thank you very much,

574
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: it would be good if you can do that for me.

575
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: So he did. In nineteen ninety seven, I believe he

576
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: wrote the letter to the Innosance Project. I remember getting

577
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: like a postcard back saying they are, well, we got

578
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: your letter, we got your information. Don't write alls on calls,

579
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: we'd write you, we contact you. There's a lot of

580
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: people waiting online. So once well, okay, well that's it,

581
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: you know, But even after they always when I was

582
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: fighting the case with my families helped they pay an

583
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: attorney for appeals, post appeals and everything we could. In

584
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: the back of my mind there was always, well, there's

585
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: still hope. There's the Innocence Project. Maybe somehow, someway, one

586
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: day they will help me in a The more I

587
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: started understanding English, I started seeing the case about Barry

588
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: Check and the organization and the DNA and all the

589
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: programs on TV, so I was always like, well, hopefully

590
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: one day they would come and help me out.

591
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: And then one day did you get a letter? How

592
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: did you find out that they had accepted the case?

593
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: I got transferred to non institution. I started going went

594
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: to school and I don't know where. One day, out

595
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: of the blue, I got a letter from the Innocence

596
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: Project like, look, your name come out and we need

597
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: your transcripts. Please send your transcripts and we're going to

598
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: look into your case. So we did send the transcripts

599
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: around h five. I'm not a very good time, and

600
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: uh it went on like that, We're probably another couple

601
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: of years. And I was like, well, I'll send the

602
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: transcripts and I don't hear anything. But one day I

603
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 1: got the letter. I remember Molly saying that you we

604
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: read transcripts, and I think you are you know man,

605
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: that alone, you don't know what to do. I was

606
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: so happy, but at the same time, you got to

607
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: remember where you were. You can scream and say, well

608
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: I'm innocent. They're gonna help me. So they called my

609
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: mom and she was so happy and so like, Okay,

610
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: now what when they're going to come and get you.

611
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: I was like, well, Mom, it's a long process. It's

612
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: going to be a while. Imagine for us, they got

613
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: to do DNA testing, they got to go to court

614
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: and so on. So it was the longest time that

615
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: I didn't prison long as they's waiting for something. And

616
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: I talked to Vanessa and I was so happy. I

617
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: wasn't homey about life. Yes, with the simple fact that

618
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: the Innocence Project is helping you and they're looking at

619
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: your case and and to me there.

620
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: Was big I know from talking to other formally incarcerated

621
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 3: people that you can't run around and show all your

622
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 3: emotion and you know you're going to get in trouble

623
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 3: with the guards or the inmates, or something bad can happen.

624
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 3: But did you have somebody in prison that you were

625
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: close to that you could share this information? Did you

626
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 3: just keep it to yourself and tell your mother and

627
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 3: that was it? How did you did you have a

628
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: person like one person that you trusted?

629
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: I did the time. It was a old man I

630
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: had met another prison many years ago, and uh, this

631
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: older gentleman he's still there, unfortunately. And we become good

632
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: friends because he knew about the law. He used to

633
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: work in the library as well, and he knew about

634
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: my case. And explained him and show him the letter.

635
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: He said, oh man, that's a great news. Man, you're

636
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: going home.

637
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: And what about the guy who first told you about

638
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: the Innocence Project in the law library. Did you get

639
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 3: to tell him the good news?

640
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we have moved around in the prison system and

641
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: I don't know where and he ended up and I

642
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: don't get to get his real name. And when you

643
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: in prison, you move so much and they shake you down,

644
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: they go through your paperwork, and sometimes it's not allowed

645
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: to have all the inmates information on your property, so

646
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: you can really have all the inmates information. And uh.

647
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: And to this day, I'm still trying to figure out

648
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: who he was. And I'm planning on probably hiring a

649
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: probably detective and find out who he was and where

650
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: he at.

651
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe somebody who's listening knows the answer.

652
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: Again, his nickname was Old T old t.

653
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 3: Okay, if anybody knows Old.

654
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 8: T send an email to the Innocence Project, We'll make

655
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 8: sure to get it. It's been one of our dreams

656
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 8: to try to find Old Team.

657
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 3: Let's find it. But what email addressed to the Inscesce

658
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 3: project though, because you can just sell into the Innocence Project.

659
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 8: That was just info at Innocence Project dot org.

660
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then put the subject line Angel Gonzales and

661
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 3: then we'll this would be incredible if we could actually

662
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 3: find him, and you know that would be an amazing moment. Ultimately, Vanessa,

663
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 3: how did this get resolved? It took several years. Still

664
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 3: from this point, must have trusted your patients. How did

665
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 3: we win?

666
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 8: So fortunately a new DA was elected, and I think

667
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 8: that you know, when people look at elections that are

668
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 8: going on through the country, you know, they usually look

669
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 8: at kind of the highest levels. But these DA races

670
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 8: are so important because what a difference a district attorney

671
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,479
Speaker 8: can make in terms of who's being prosecuted and post

672
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 8: conviction just getting access to.

673
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 7: Evidence to prove innocence.

674
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 8: And so the old regime was out in Lake County

675
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 8: and a new DA came in, Mike Nrheim, and that

676
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 8: was a fortunate move for us because we've reached out

677
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 8: to the States of Ernie Nrheim and requested that we

678
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 8: be able to retest Angel's evidence, and under the previous administration,

679
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 8: we would have been fighting for five years just to

680
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 8: get access to the evidence. But he agreed we didn't

681
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 8: have to do any litigation, and so the evidence pretty

682
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 8: quickly went off to the lab. What took some time

683
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 8: and was really stressful about Angel's case is that, you know,

684
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 8: when we read his transcripts, and we looked at the confession,

685
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 8: and we looked at how he even got caught up

686
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 8: in this. I think Mollie was sincere when she was

687
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 8: a law student. She said that, you know, she knew

688
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 8: you were innocent. So what was so stressful for us

689
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 8: is we knew that the only way we were going

690
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 8: to be able to exonerate him was to get a

691
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 8: second profile. And you know how they're already been testing,

692
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 8: and so we started to look at the victims' shorts.

693
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 8: One of the perpetrators had ripped off of her shorts

694
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 8: and they were torn, and so the lab was able

695
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 8: to get some male DNA from the area where the

696
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 8: perpetrator actually tore her shorts and some other samples, and

697
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 8: so that created the second profile in addition to the sperm,

698
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 8: which showed, Look, we now have the genetic profile of

699
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 8: the two men who did this crime, and neither of

700
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,959
Speaker 8: those people is angel And.

701
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 7: I think once we had that proof, it was pretty quick.

702
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 8: It was a matter of weeks before they went back

703
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 8: and they talked to the victim. And in these cases,

704
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 8: the victim was traumatized and a lot of times it's

705
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 8: you know, really hard for them to accept that the

706
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 8: innocent people went to prison and the real perpetrators are

707
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 8: still out there. And so she said, well, maybe it's

708
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 8: my boyfriend's DNA, and so they tested the boyfriend and

709
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 8: he was excluded, further establishing the DNA profiles we had

710
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 8: came from the two people who did it, and it

711
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 8: was an Angel, And so, you know, initially we thought

712
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 8: it was over because they prosecutor was agreeing to vacate

713
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 8: his conviction, and we were ready to go into court,

714
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 8: and we expected that that day his conviction was tossed.

715
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 8: He was just going to walk out of court and

716
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 8: into the arms of his mom and his dad was

717
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 8: who was there and had suffered a stroke and some

718
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 8: health complications while Angel was locked up.

719
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 3: And what a terrible thing that this poor victim has

720
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 3: to learn twenty years later that the people that did

721
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 3: this to her got away with it. They literally got

722
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 3: away with it, and they were free to go out

723
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: and do the same thing to other innocent women, and

724
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 3: that all this time she had been told a false narrative.

725
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 3: It's such a terrible new trauma for someone to have

726
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 3: to endure to now find out that they've misplaced their anger.

727
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: And also that they've contributed to just a terrible, terrible

728
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 3: situation that you had to endure. I mean, I can't

729
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 3: even process that whole It's a whole mixture of hers

730
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: for somebody that have to and almost to relive the

731
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 3: whole thing again twenty years later. How did you find out?

732
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 3: Was it in court that you found out or was

733
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 3: it later?

734
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: Well, how would you want to speak to one SI?

735
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: It was on a Friday, and she said, well, look,

736
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: we're going to court Monday, and uh is not over yet.

737
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: Things stick can happen. You may come home to day,

738
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 1: you may not, so on Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So okay.

739
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,439
Speaker 1: So at the time I was like, well, I'm coming

740
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: home because everything is there, like they shouldn't be nothing

741
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: from them, so they can stop me. But at the

742
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: same time, like, well maybe they can come out with

743
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: some crazy thing they have no idea and say, well,

744
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: you're not going home because of this, and uh, ironically,

745
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: it's kind of what happened the day who went to

746
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 1: court and everything went our way and they said, well, wait,

747
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: you did something in prison.

748
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we have to talk about this. Yeah. When

749
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 3: Angels talking about this other case, he's talking about the

750
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 3: fact that at one point in prison he destroyed I'm

751
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 3: talking about he like, you're not here but yet, So Angel,

752
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 3: you it seems like, said a gentle guy. I mean,

753
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 3: you have a breaking point too, like anybody else. And

754
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 3: you destroyed a sink in the prison.

755
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: Correct?

756
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 3: Was that in solitary confinement?

757
00:38:59,480 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: Yes?

758
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 3: Right, so you're in solitary confinement. You have nowhere to

759
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 3: take your aggressions out. Rather than take it out on

760
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 3: another inmate or guard or anything else, at least you

761
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 3: took it out on an inanimate object. I mean, the

762
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 3: poor sink. I'm sure feelings too. But anyway, so the

763
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 3: Angel destroyed this sink and was given an additional three

764
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 3: year sentence for assault and battery on a sink.

765
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly.

766
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 3: Is that an actual crime destruction.

767
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 7: Of state property?

768
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 8: Three years concurrent sentence, So an additional three years.

769
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 3: So now here it is, you're in and you were

770
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 3: in the courtroom. I assume Vanessa went yes.

771
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I was in the courtroom.

772
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 8: You know, it's a pretty surreal experience because we're standing there,

773
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 8: we're with the prosecutor. The prosecutor stands up and declares

774
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 8: Angel innocent of this brutal rape that he has a

775
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 8: fifty five year sentence for and everybody's acknowledging he's been

776
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 8: wrongfully convicted, and they say, no, he has to go

777
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 8: back because the conviction for destruction of state property still stands.

778
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 8: And not only does it still stand, but he was

779
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 8: prosecuted for.

780
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 7: That in the town where the prison was.

781
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 8: So we then had to try to file emotion and

782
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 8: drive the following day to the court in the prison town,

783
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 8: and that's when Angel appeared through video conference, and we

784
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 8: basically we had some legal grounds to go back and

785
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 8: overturn the conviction, but it was basically throwing our mercy

786
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 8: on the court and saying he's been wrongfully convicted of

787
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 8: this other crime, and please vacate this conviction so he

788
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 8: can finally come home, which the judge did.

789
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 3: That's a good judge, I mean, because he didn't have

790
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 3: to do that.

791
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, right, and shielded it was a woman.

792
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 3: Oh yeah. So the judge shows no mercy on the sink,

793
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 3: but shows mercy on you, which was certainly logical, rational

794
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: and compassionate thing to do. And now you're finally, you're

795
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 3: finally there were you on video when this was.

796
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: Happening, Yes, the core was on videotape.

797
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 3: So you were in I wasn't side person. You're back

798
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 3: in the present. Yes, So they have a room there

799
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 3: and I'm trying to visualize this, right, So you're in

800
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 3: this room. Are you there with a guard? Yes, and

801
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 3: you're watching this on video.

802
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: Right, you're watching the judge in front of you.

803
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 3: And then what now you're still inside this room. But

804
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 3: this was your reaction? Was the guard's reaction?

805
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: Well, they don't know what to do, Like, okay, now

806
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 1: you finally all the cases are just missed, and how

807
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: we process this? They were when in the halfway paperwork

808
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: in the morning, but like, so we don't know if

809
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: you go home, And I said, well do you know

810
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: if you go home? No, So nobody knew when too,

811
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: four thirty and now it was late and second ship guards,

812
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: they don't know what to do. Well, how we process this?

813
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: Somebody's picking you up. We just cannot let you go here,

814
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: and the town lose.

815
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 3: I don't know why.

816
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 8: But his legal team we were in the car, are paralegals,

817
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 8: law students driving over to get angel and then this

818
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 8: is you know, kind of the crazy part of the

819
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 8: innocence project job.

820
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 7: We're on the way and We're like, what is he

821
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 7: gonna wear? So we're like, is there a Walmart? Is

822
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 7: there any store in this town?

823
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 8: And so we're like, take a detour to go try

824
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 8: to find some clothes in a Walmart?

825
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 7: What size is he?

826
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 8: We don't know, you know, so we're doing our best. Guest,

827
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 8: I think we didn't you look good in the pictures?

828
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: We didn't very good. It was very good. Thank you?

829
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 3: So and this and by the way, I can't imagine. Well,

830
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 3: first of all, I'm I'm going back for a second.

831
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 3: So was the guard. What was the guard's reaction? He's

832
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 3: never seen anything like this before. Did he get emotional?

833
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 3: Did you get emotional? By this point, you were just like,

834
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 3: what the hell? I mean?

835
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: Well, I used to be housed in in a unit.

836
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: They used to call it a postally living unit, so

837
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: most of the people that were working on themselves to

838
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: better themselves. And I used to be a volunteer in

839
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 1: the prison for years, so I pretty much knew everybody

840
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: and the building and some of the guards. I remember

841
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: one of the officers I used to work for. On

842
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: one day, You're gonna see me walking out of the door,

843
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: and you're gonna walk me all the way to the

844
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: door and gonna say good luck. I used to left

845
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: about it, like why you're gonna escape, Like, no, you're

846
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: gonna walk me to the door and you're gonna say

847
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: good luck. But he was our second shift officer, so like, well,

848
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 1: I don't even work in the morning, so you I'm

849
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: not gonna do that. And funny enough, the day he

850
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 1: wasn't working there in the unit, but he come and

851
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 1: relieve another officers like, hey, I'm going home, Yes, look

852
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: at me, and it's miceaid, well, I guess it was

853
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: true what you was telling me, so well, good luck.

854
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: By the time, and then in the particular unit and

855
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: most of the prisons they already knew because the media,

856
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: the news who wasn't Telemundo and all the local channels,

857
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: so they kind of knew what was going on already.

858
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: It was something that you free, you go home, but

859
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: the door isn't.

860
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 3: Open, and what about let's do the split screen. Now,

861
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: now you are driving around trying to find a Walmart

862
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 3: at the you know, in the nighttime and somewhere around

863
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: wakegan and what was the spirit in the car? Everybody

864
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: freaking out, Like the law students probably hadn't experienced this before.

865
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 8: Right, We were very excited and I think many people

866
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 8: had such a special connection to Angel.

867
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was a little psychotic.

868
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 8: I mean, once we realized this conviction was still there,

869
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 8: we were on the side of the road trying to

870
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 8: draft emotion to get filed, to get him out. So

871
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 8: it's a whirlwin of twenty four hours. And we had

872
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 8: a law student paralegal and I was like, look, just

873
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 8: here's your time.

874
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 7: To step up to be lawyers.

875
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 8: Start to do some research, find a way that we're

876
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 8: going to vacate this conviction. And yeah, and we were

877
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 8: picking out the clothes, but it was it was we're

878
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 8: really excited for this moment. And we had already met

879
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 8: Angel's mother and father and siblings and beautiful extended family

880
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 8: at the court hearing when they were so disappointed to

881
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 8: the day before when his conviction was vacated, but he

882
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 8: didn't come home, and so it was excitement and just

883
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 8: really happy that we were able to get him and

884
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 8: bring him home that night and there was a huge

885
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 8: party waiting for him with balloons and lots of food,

886
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 8: great food.

887
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 3: Right, and now, what how is their life now? I mean,

888
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 3: you've been out for a couple of years. I know

889
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: you talked about how you're still dealing with some of

890
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 3: the psychological issues and trauma that you experienced. But what

891
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 3: are you doing? How are you adjusting our things for

892
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 3: you now?

893
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,959
Speaker 1: Well, I'm trying to still readjust to life. Some days

894
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: are harder than others, definitely, But again I go and

895
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: and think about what can I do positive today and

896
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: especially right now. You inviter us to the show. Thank

897
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: you very much, and I'll do what I can to

898
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,919
Speaker 1: talk about the Innocence Project to keey hope to those

899
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: who still fighting their cases in prison is not easy.

900
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: But as long as you keep on fighting, someday help

901
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: is going to come from the Innocence Project or other organizations.

902
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: Somebody somewhere, some how. I was doing the same thing

903
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: for me. I feel like that's what I have to

904
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 1: continue on doing. Spread the war. Just talk to sometimes

905
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: the mothers of those wrongfully convicted. They call me and

906
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: ask me about what can I do for my son?

907
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: Who are those lawyers that get you out? How they

908
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: get you out, how much they charge you? And all

909
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: I can tell them sometimes you got to keep on fighting.

910
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: And this is the information called make sure that he

911
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: writes them and don't give up. And that's what I'm

912
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: I'm doing right now. I have a dream. When I

913
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: was inside, I take construction classes. That are when I

914
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: come home, I start something to help others. And that's

915
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: what I'm doing right now. I just started working on it.

916
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping or building a house for the purpose

917
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: of when somebody's coming home he's been wrongfully convicted. We

918
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: have a place to learn, a place where they can

919
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: at least teach them the most basic stuff of life. Here.

920
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: This is the phone. This is how you use it.

921
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about paying rent. You don't

922
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: have to worry but paying bills for six eight months,

923
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: as long as we can allow you to stay here

924
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: so you can start living again, because when you come home,

925
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a big shot. Twenty something years for

926
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,919
Speaker 1: me and now everything has changed. And to this day,

927
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: when they send me their tickets to flying on the

928
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: phone like what I do? Now? Did you get the email?

929
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 1: Like how I get my email? So the small things

930
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: like that, I'm still learning. Yes, imagine if they take

931
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: it to another planet like here you are, here's what

932
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 1: you need, here's all the technology, but you know how

933
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: to use it. We just look at it like okay, now,

934
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: who's going to help me? I will leave there. And

935
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of places, a lot of states,

936
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: we still have the need for somebody to kind of

937
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: mentor you and teach you the most basic stuff. Yes,

938
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: there's something as simple as going to store and then

939
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 1: pick up toiletries, like now you have all these products?

940
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: What I picked? Or how I go about it? Did

941
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: I get in line? I used to go to the

942
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: store and I see everybody paying with their credit cards

943
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: and swipe their phone.

944
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 3: Like okay, want to do right? And then I don't

945
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 3: have cares they give me a card like okay. So

946
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 3: it must be overwhelming for somebody coming back. And that's

947
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 3: incredible that you, like so many of the other exogunderies,

948
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 3: Almost all of the other exouneries are driven by this

949
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: desire to help other people both get out of the

950
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 3: situation that they're in and to adjust to society. And

951
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 3: I talk about it a lot when people see the

952
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 3: courthouse steps and the happy celebration and the whole thing.

953
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 3: But it's a whole new series of challenges after you

954
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 3: get out. And I think we as a society have

955
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 3: to be much more accepting and understanding and more welcoming

956
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 3: in terms of job opportunities, in terms of compensation, in

957
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 3: terms of all that stuff for people who we are

958
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 3: responsible for helping, I mean our brothers and sisters that

959
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 3: we have horribly wrong, and then you come back and

960
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 3: it's like, well, good luck, that's it, like the guard said,

961
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 3: good luck. But I mean, like good luck, you need

962
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 3: a little more than that. You need a hand, you know, Angel.

963
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 3: We have a tradition on wrongful conviction, which is that

964
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: at the end of each episode, I offer to the

965
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: star of our show, which is in this case you

966
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 3: if you would like to share any last thoughts about

967
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 3: anything at all.

968
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: Well, just when I ask everybody please keep on contributing

969
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: to the Innocence Project and other organizations like the Innocence

970
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: Project to help those who's still fighting. It can happen

971
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: to anybody. Unfortunately, I'm not against for the system, but

972
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of problems with the legal system. I

973
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: believe you need to be reviewed and make it work better,

974
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: because in this case, the system not just failed me,

975
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: failed the victim. I can't even imagine what you have

976
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: to endure throughout all these years and not the end

977
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: when I'm free, but probably she's still fighting, so please

978
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: keep on giving financially. There's a lot of law of students,

979
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: a lot of smart on people up there that can

980
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,240
Speaker 1: help to make this country better.

981
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 3: Thank you, Angel Gonzalez, and so happy you're here and

982
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 3: I wish you all the blessings in life and head

983
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 3: of Folks Addiction Litigation at the Ennists Project, Vanessa Potkin,

984
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 3: thank you for coming and joining us here on Wrongful

985
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 3: Conviction with Jason Flammer. Thank you don't forget to give

986
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 3: us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts, it

987
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 3: really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Ennessis

988
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 3: Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting

989
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 3: this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions.

990
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 3: Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to

991
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 3: donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,

992
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 3: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show

993
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 3: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

994
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 3: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and

995
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 3: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

996
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 3: flamm Is a production of Lava for Good podcasts and

997
00:50:52,440 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 3: association with signal Company Number one