Speaker 1: This episode is something that I'm passionate about, mules and
Speaker 1: mule riders or mule skinners as they're called. We'll talk
Speaker 1: about why that we use mules, how they compare to horses,
Speaker 1: and how they rise and fall to the experience of
Speaker 1: their rider. And we're going to have a couple of
Speaker 1: very unique people talking to us about this. We're gonna
Speaker 1: hear again from trainer and clinician Ty Evans about mulemanship.
Speaker 1: But you're in for a treat because we'll also hear
Speaker 1: from legendary Arizona cowboy Warner Glinn. That's right, Beargreas Hall
Speaker 1: of Famer Warner Glenn. Once again. I think you're gonna
Speaker 1: be surprised by what we're gonna learn as we listen
Speaker 1: to these guys talk about mules. I really doubt that
Speaker 1: you're gonna want to miss this one.
Speaker 2: A lot of the old timers rats that Warner, why
Speaker 2: do you ride mules t hunt rather than horses? And
Speaker 2: I said, well, tell you the truth. I just you know,
Speaker 2: I just don't feel as sorry for mules. Can I
Speaker 2: forge that going to take him and be both or
Speaker 2: she and me? By and large, most of the Mountain
Speaker 2: Lion hunters in our area use mules now most of
Speaker 2: the type.
Speaker 1: My name is Clay Knukelem and this is the Bear
Speaker 1: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search
Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the
Speaker 1: story of Americans who live their lives close to the land.
Speaker 1: Presented by f h F gear, American made purpose built
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing gear as designed to be as rugged
Speaker 1: as the place as we explore.
Speaker 2: Thank you Lord for this food, and thank you Lord
Speaker 2: for the guidance of safety you've given us today. And
Speaker 2: please watch over to the night and give us a
Speaker 2: a good night's rest on it man.
Speaker 1: One of the most unique and impacting experiences of my
Speaker 1: life has been the time that I've spent with Warner.
Speaker 1: Glenn Warner is now ninety years old, and in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two I was able to ride mules and lion
Speaker 1: hunt with him near his home in Douglas, Arizona. The
Speaker 1: southern border of his ranch is the US Mexican border.
Speaker 1: Warner is a cattle rancher and a dry ground lion hunter.
Speaker 1: He's a true cowboy.
Speaker 2: Now, Claire will try a little Jesse pooka.
Speaker 1: If you've heard the super puncher Dale Brisbee harassed me
Speaker 1: about my mule. You might get the impression that cowboys
Speaker 1: don't like mules, and some don't. I've learned that a
Speaker 1: lot of rodeo cowboys don't like them, but the cowboy
Speaker 1: hunters that I know love them. And I just did
Speaker 1: something out of the ordinary. I asked chat GPT, that's right,
Speaker 1: chat GPT, if there were any common themes among mule owners,
Speaker 1: and it quickly spit out seven things. And I'd like
Speaker 1: to read you the list that it said. Number one,
Speaker 1: mule owners value function over flash. Number two. Mule owners
Speaker 1: are comfortable with earned trust, trust that's negotiated, not demanded.
Speaker 1: Number three. Mule writers have a high tolerance for stubbornness
Speaker 1: and like animals that assess risk. Number four, they have
Speaker 1: a strong rural, working backcountry connection mule writers do. Number five.
Speaker 1: Mule writers are skeptical of hype and authority. Number six.
Speaker 1: Mule writers tend to be loyal once convinced. But mule
Speaker 1: owners may be slow to adopt new ideas, but once
Speaker 1: they believe in something, they stick with it, defend it passionately,
Speaker 1: evangelize it quietly through results. This mirrors how mules themselves.
Speaker 1: Operate number seven, the last one that chat GPT spit out.
Speaker 1: Mule writers are often experienced animal people. In summary, it
Speaker 1: says mule owners tend to be pragmatic, independent, patient people
Speaker 1: who value intelligence, self preservation, and earned partnership over obedience
Speaker 1: and appearance. That was a wild trip. Based on what
Speaker 1: I know of Warner, Glenn and ty Evans, these things
Speaker 1: sound about right. I want to talk with Warner. This
Speaker 1: interview is from twenty twenty one when I was down
Speaker 1: in Douglas, Arizona, and I want to ask him about
Speaker 1: his history with mules.
Speaker 2: In cattle work here on the rent, we like to
Speaker 2: use horses. They're a little more responsive than that type
Speaker 2: of thing. We're just although we use mules a lot
Speaker 2: of times. We don't have the horses up if we
Speaker 2: have to work in cattle, but in the hunting. But
Speaker 2: that and I use a lot of horses. When they
Speaker 2: first started, early in the fourties and early fifties and sixties,
Speaker 2: we were horseback most of the time, even because we were
Speaker 2: raising all those horses in the mountains. Yeah, and we
Speaker 2: were breaking them ourselves, so they were good mountain horses.
Speaker 2: It's kind of hard to find a good mountain horse now,
Speaker 2: But we want to use mules. We use mules all
Speaker 2: together now when we're hunting. They take care of themselves
Speaker 2: in that rough, rugged country. They hardly ever get crippled, ever,
Speaker 2: hardly ever get hurt. If they do happen to fall
Speaker 2: with you. And I'm not saying a mule won't fall
Speaker 2: with you, they will have them fall with me. But
Speaker 2: usually when they get in a real bad place and
Speaker 2: fall or get in the tight situation there, they're kind
Speaker 2: of relaxing. Wait a minute. They don't panic, where a
Speaker 2: horse will usually panic and go to london or kicking
Speaker 2: and get freddy. Well, you might find one occasionally that would,
Speaker 2: but most mules settle down and take a kind of
Speaker 2: ease out of a tough situation. And in doing that
Speaker 2: they allow you time to step out of the middle
Speaker 2: of the trouble too. They're not they're not lundon and fighting.
Speaker 2: And I tell you when you get it, when they
Speaker 2: go down with if there's a pause, taught you better
Speaker 2: take advantage of you better get out of the way.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna remember that. Yeah, Hey, you told me a
Speaker 1: statement today. You said you said, we've had some good
Speaker 1: mountain horses, but I sure felt sorry for it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Well, a lot of the old timers around said, wonder,
Speaker 2: why do you rude mules all the time hunting rather
Speaker 2: than horses, And I said, well, to tell you the truth,
Speaker 2: i'd you know, I just don't feel as sorry for
Speaker 2: a mule as I do a horse. Can I figure
Speaker 2: that mule was going to take him and me both
Speaker 2: and showing me. I'm not saying there's not some good
Speaker 2: mountain horses still around. Some of the hunters still use
Speaker 2: horses quite a bit, but by and large, most of
Speaker 2: the mountain lion hunters in our area use mules and
Speaker 2: meals most of the time.
Speaker 1: Tell me about tell me about your mule Machomo.
Speaker 2: Well, I tell you yeah. And he came out of
Speaker 2: Mexico where at that time that this would have been
Speaker 2: like fifty six, fifty seven, fifty eight, nineteen fifty six,
Speaker 2: fifty seventy, we were doing a lot of hunting in
Speaker 2: the northern part of Sonora in these mountains you didn't
Speaker 2: see from here in south it was. And they had
Speaker 2: a mule called Motobo down there that one of the
Speaker 2: wranglers down there was riding. So when we came out
Speaker 2: of there. The rancher was making Armando Marella. He was
Speaker 2: making some really good horses. He had bonds of real
Speaker 2: fancy stud and he said for payment for catching some
Speaker 2: of the lines down, and then he said, wonder on when
Speaker 2: he gave you one of these good horses. And I said, man,
Speaker 2: I know, I said, I would really rather have that
Speaker 2: baby mule called. He said you would, and I said yeah.
Speaker 2: So he gave me the mule. That's where he came from,
Speaker 2: and he's one of the best mules I've ever hit.
Speaker 3: There.
Speaker 2: He was a little wild and rank. At first, I
Speaker 2: got ridy. He kicked me a time or two, really bad,
Speaker 2: but he got over that. When he got about eighteen
Speaker 2: nineteen years old, he got.
Speaker 1: I took a while. What was your favorite mule of
Speaker 1: all time?
Speaker 2: Well, I tell you I've had a lot of them,
Speaker 2: but of all time, if I had my pick for
Speaker 2: one to stay with, I had a white mule called
Speaker 2: Shnoy River and he would want He would do anything
Speaker 2: you wanted to do it, and he would do it good.
Speaker 2: And he was willing. He never balked. I mean he
Speaker 2: was good rough country. You could go ahead of cow
Speaker 2: and I mean you work cattle all you were doing,
Speaker 2: just a good all around mule butt.
Speaker 1: He carry a line too, Oh yeah, yeah, he carried
Speaker 1: a loah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's some most of our I tell you, they're
Speaker 2: not afraid of the lion as much as you are.
Speaker 2: Bear it seems like our mules here, of course they don't.
Speaker 2: We don't bear hunt much. It's just very rare that
Speaker 2: they're even around him. I've had I'm riding. You'll see
Speaker 2: her in the morning, videan. She's she's one of those.
Speaker 1: How big a mule do you like?
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't like him too big. I like him.
Speaker 2: It weighs probably ten fifty to twelve fifty.
Speaker 1: These are pretty big mules you've got, though, I mean,
Speaker 1: they're some of the more sixteen hands probably are they that.
Speaker 2: A couple of couple of them probably are.
Speaker 1: You're a big, big guy, they're they're.
Speaker 2: A little bigger than those are good mules, the ones
Speaker 2: we got now, But I'd rather have a little smaller one.
Speaker 2: I'd rather have one. Snowy River was probably he'd probably
Speaker 2: weighed ten to fifty something like that. When he would
Speaker 2: drawing down, Yeah, drawn down, good condition. Mortoba would have
Speaker 2: been too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's clear that Warner knows a thing or two
Speaker 1: about mules, and he's probably put as many miles in
Speaker 1: the saddle of a mule as any living person. Where
Speaker 1: as a rancher, a practitioner, and a man of function
Speaker 1: don't have no doubt he could train a mule, He's
Speaker 1: not necessarily a mule trainer. That's not where he's focused.
Speaker 1: Ty Evans is less than half of Warner's age and
Speaker 1: has spent inordinate amounts of time training mules, and his
Speaker 1: expertise comes from a slightly different angle. Ti is a
Speaker 1: methodical student of the mule, and in the last episode
Speaker 1: we learned about Tie's transformation as a trainer, going from
Speaker 1: the cowboy way of bucking a mule out and demanding
Speaker 1: its submission and allegiance to using the principles of natural horsemanship,
Speaker 1: where trust is earned and freely given, rather than taking
Speaker 1: using the herd mentality and leaning in to the way
Speaker 1: a mule thinks to gain its trust kind of inside
Speaker 1: its natural order. But I want to get back to
Speaker 1: the basics with Tie Evans.
Speaker 3: So a mule is a cross between a horse and
Speaker 3: a donkey, a female horse and a male donkey. Jack Okay,
Speaker 3: and that makes the hybrid we're crossing. We're acrossing these
Speaker 3: species here. It's that hybrid makes all kinds of advantages.
Speaker 4: For performance animals.
Speaker 3: It just makes them double tough, makes a lot of
Speaker 3: unique things. Mules shine the best in rough country. The
Speaker 3: rougher it is, the more they shine. Now that doesn't
Speaker 3: mean you can't use mules for all the gentle stuff too,
Speaker 3: And you might not be riding rough country. You might
Speaker 3: be riding something pretty mild. You might be just riding
Speaker 3: in the arena. Maybe you want to just do some masage.
Speaker 3: Maybe you want to just do some arena events. That's okay,
Speaker 3: and they do good there too. The diversity is awesome.
Speaker 3: But I'll tell you what. The mules shines in the mountains.
Speaker 3: It shines in the rough country. It shines in using
Speaker 3: them day after day, year after year. The longevity that
Speaker 3: they have. And you know that's why historically they have
Speaker 3: been beasts of burden too. You know, people have used
Speaker 3: them historically.
Speaker 4: The horse gets all the credit for the West, but
Speaker 4: the mules made the West. They really did.
Speaker 3: There's you know, mules were very valuable to pioneers and
Speaker 3: I come from pioneer heritage on you know, multiple sides,
Speaker 3: and they came over with mules, and they made this
Speaker 3: country with meals.
Speaker 4: They plowed the fields with mules, They mined with mules.
Speaker 3: Mules made the West and pretty cool. I have so
Speaker 3: much respect for the mule. I've seen what they can do.
Speaker 3: From the some of the I'll admit, some of the
Speaker 3: dumb situations I have put a mule in, I have
Speaker 3: seen what they can do and how they can get
Speaker 3: me out of those situations, and they can reverse those
Speaker 3: choices I made. You know, I've put my mules into
Speaker 3: situations that are very challenging technically in the mountains in
Speaker 3: the Red Rock Country of Utah, and I owe so
Speaker 3: much to them. I also love the mule because of
Speaker 3: their unique and dynamic personalities. A lot of people will
Speaker 3: describe will describe them as kind of doglike, and I
Speaker 3: can agree with that. You know, they do kind of
Speaker 3: have more of a dog like personality. Yeah, And I've
Speaker 3: had some horses with great personalities, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 3: But the mules just more so. And that was one
Speaker 3: of Tom Dorance's sayings. He said, the mule is just
Speaker 3: like the horse, only more so. And so it just
Speaker 3: seemed like if you've got a really friendly mual. They're
Speaker 3: really friendly, you know, And I love that about them.
Speaker 3: I love how forgiving they are. And that's actually a
Speaker 3: myth that a lot of people have, is that they're
Speaker 3: not forgiving.
Speaker 4: Oh come on, everybody, you know.
Speaker 3: They're forgiving all the stuff that all the stuff that
Speaker 3: the mule has put up with me and forgiven me
Speaker 3: for I make mistakes every time I ride, every time
Speaker 3: I rode today, rode twenty miles a day, I made
Speaker 3: all kinds of mistakes, and that mule is gonna forgive me,
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna fix it. I'll be better tomorrow. And
Speaker 3: I love that about the animal there. They like to
Speaker 3: feel comfortable. So you might have messed up big time.
Speaker 3: And if you can just help them feel comfortable, get
Speaker 3: yourself right, and you help them get comfortable, they're good
Speaker 3: to go. The hybrid vi is top notch. That is
Speaker 3: what makes the mule that highbred vigor. It's not for everybody.
Speaker 3: That's probably why I like the mule too. It is
Speaker 3: because not everybody likes the mule, and that's okay, that's
Speaker 3: all right.
Speaker 4: But that high bred.
Speaker 3: Vigor, oh my gosh, that's what makes them so durable
Speaker 3: and so tough, and they can go and then not
Speaker 3: only can they go today, but they can go tomorrow.
Speaker 4: And I love that.
Speaker 3: I really love that in them. There's nothing better than
Speaker 3: riding a mule and just going up a crazy steep
Speaker 3: side hill of a mountain, scratching through rocks, and that
Speaker 3: thing is just powering up it.
Speaker 4: It's just so cool.
Speaker 3: You just fill that under you and you're thinking that
Speaker 3: they might get tired, and then they give you more.
Speaker 3: You know, you take a lunch break and just let
Speaker 3: them relax a little while, and then they're.
Speaker 4: Charged up for the afternoon. And I really appreciate that. Also,
Speaker 4: the diversity of.
Speaker 3: The meal, Oh man, you can do everything with them,
Speaker 3: Like I can go my meals. I can go trail
Speaker 3: ride with them, I can go packing, I can go hunt,
Speaker 3: I can go rope and work cows. My daughter likes
Speaker 3: to bail race. She'll take the meal of the bail race.
Speaker 4: You know, she might not be winning.
Speaker 3: You know, if you're gonna ask me what should I
Speaker 3: get for bill racing, probably get a horse. I'm not
Speaker 3: gonna suggest meal for bell racing. But she has fun
Speaker 3: on that meal, and that meal takes big care of
Speaker 3: her in that brail race. So the dice, the diversity
Speaker 3: is one of my favorite things about it too.
Speaker 2: Right, ride a little one this morning, Go Rosalie.
Speaker 1: That's the name of the meal you're putting me on?
Speaker 1: How old is this meal?
Speaker 2: Problem with it? She's about seventeen seventeen, Yeah, and it's
Speaker 2: too bad. You hate to see them, You're like, you know.
Speaker 1: So this is your go to meal. This is what's
Speaker 1: this meal's name?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Vivian?
Speaker 4: How old is she?
Speaker 2: Vid? She got to be about fifteen years old.
Speaker 1: This is your this is the one you go to
Speaker 1: when you got.
Speaker 2: To well, youm I write this at least other every
Speaker 2: other day. I've got three. I'm ride per regular, Ridger
Speaker 2: and Vivian and uh Brayer, Yeah so and Kelly. She
Speaker 2: got Rosalie and Pete and some of those others.
Speaker 1: When when does the mule get just right and at.
Speaker 2: Depend depends on a long but but I tell you what,
Speaker 2: as far as being general and trustworthy and everything, I
Speaker 2: would say like six or seven really to where you
Speaker 2: could trust them with anybody. Yeah, right down there, and
Speaker 2: you can you can write him into two or three.
Speaker 2: But you better be ready for a little wreck of it.
Speaker 2: Should have you know, should they're just not used to it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and all should these mountain I tell you they're hard
Speaker 2: on you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Warner's knowledge of animals comes from time in the saddle,
Speaker 1: evaluating how they navigate backcountry, and he's been in a
Speaker 1: lot of bad wrecks. As a matter of fact, he's
Speaker 1: been life flighted out of the back country once after
Speaker 1: a very bad wreck, and so has his daughter Kelly.
Speaker 1: He's been in some harry spots. He told me once
Speaker 1: about a mule rolling over and flipping over him, but
Speaker 1: he didn't get hurt. I had one experience with Warner
Speaker 1: that I'll never tire of telling. Once I was following
Speaker 1: him in Arizona and the dogs went over the top
Speaker 1: of a high mountain. Warner basically turned and said to me,
Speaker 1: follow me, Clay, and he sent the rest of our
Speaker 1: crew around the mountain, but I was supposed to follow him.
Speaker 1: We proceeded up the steepest, roughest half mile mule scramble
Speaker 1: that I had ever been on. At the time, Warner
Speaker 1: was ponying a pack mule. That means he was leading
Speaker 1: a pack mule. Mules were slipping and sliding and scrambling,
Speaker 1: and we were getting raked by limbs and mules were
Speaker 1: jumping folders, and he never once looked back to see
Speaker 1: if I was there. Once we got to the top,
Speaker 1: he never acknowledged that it was a hard stretch. I
Speaker 1: kind of expected him to turn around and be like, wow, Claire,
Speaker 1: you okay, good job, but he never did, which then
Speaker 1: made me wonder if that was in fact a hard
Speaker 1: ride for him, because I knew it was for me.
Speaker 1: So that night at the dinner table, I cautiously asked him.
Speaker 1: I said, Warner, if you had to rank that hill
Speaker 1: that we climbed today on a scale of one to ten,
Speaker 1: and a one was walking your mule down a gravel road,
Speaker 1: and a tin was that you were dead, what do
Speaker 1: we do today? I waited anticipation as he paused and
Speaker 1: thought for a minute. He and I kind of thought
Speaker 1: he might say, oh, Clay, that was about a three
Speaker 1: or four or five. But then he said, Clay, I'd
Speaker 1: say that was about an eight. He said, if it
Speaker 1: had been much rougher than that, you couldn't have done it.
Speaker 1: And I smiled and had a little sigh of relief
Speaker 1: and went on to eat dinner with him. I'll never
Speaker 1: forget that here's tie evens.
Speaker 3: The mule will rise or fall to their humans level
Speaker 3: of experience and understanding. So, for example, at this point
Speaker 3: in my career, I feel pretty confident that I could
Speaker 3: take a mule that's pretty scared or worried or what
Speaker 3: somebody else might call problem, and I could help that mule.
Speaker 3: I could add value to that mule's life, and I
Speaker 3: could bring it up to my level.
Speaker 4: However, on the other hand, and if.
Speaker 3: If somebody is very inexperienced or doesn't have a lot
Speaker 3: of understanding or or the abilities, capabilities, all these things,
Speaker 3: and they get a mule like that, well this is
Speaker 3: this is bad news. There's the saying green on green
Speaker 3: is black and blue. Well, that's not too far off
Speaker 3: from the truth. On the other hand, too, I suppose
Speaker 3: that person with a lot of with not a lot
Speaker 3: of experience, they might buy a mule that is really
Speaker 3: awesome and they think it's a you know, a turn
Speaker 3: key operation.
Speaker 4: Right, this this meal is ready to go.
Speaker 3: But if that person doesn't continue to get better and
Speaker 3: to grow, that mule will that mual and that person
Speaker 3: will meet in the middle. At some point that mule
Speaker 3: is gonna come down. The mule doesn't get to keep
Speaker 3: that level of training, that level of skill. You can
Speaker 3: think of it kind of like a knife, Like if
Speaker 3: you just got you might have the sharpest knife in
Speaker 3: the world, the best knife you ever had, and you
Speaker 3: just leave it out. You don't take care of that knife.
Speaker 3: You don't do anything to keep that knife sharp. Even
Speaker 3: though you're not using that knife. That knife is good
Speaker 3: adult just from being just just sitting outside.
Speaker 4: It's going to go downhill. Well, that's what happens to
Speaker 4: the meals too.
Speaker 3: They got a meal, they bought a nice meal. It's awesome,
Speaker 3: but it's just sitting outside.
Speaker 4: You got to keep that thing sharp.
Speaker 3: You've got to get yourself sharp to keep that sharp.
Speaker 3: And that's something in life I've learned with anything, any
Speaker 3: type of knowledge in life, any skill in life.
Speaker 4: If you're not getting.
Speaker 3: Better at whatever it is you do, whether it's mealmanship
Speaker 3: or hunting or playing a guitar, if you're not getting better,
Speaker 3: you're actually getting worse. We don't in this whole life.
Speaker 3: We don't get to just stay the same. We're different
Speaker 3: now at the end of the toward the end of
Speaker 3: this conversation than we were at the beginning of the conversation.
Speaker 4: We know more, we've learned, we've.
Speaker 3: Chatted, we've talked, and things have changed, you know, they
Speaker 3: really have. You don't get to be the same person
Speaker 3: you We won't be the same person tomorrow as we
Speaker 3: are today. And it's the same thing with the mule.
Speaker 3: They're changing, so we better keep up.
Speaker 1: I hope this conversation has given us insight into the
Speaker 1: world of the mule, because, as with many things in life,
Speaker 1: principles in one area often work in another. Master one
Speaker 1: thing and you can master another. We've learned that a
Speaker 1: core principle of natural horsemanship is also core to being
Speaker 1: a good leader anywhere in life. A leader can't ask
Speaker 1: the people that follow him or her to be something
Speaker 1: that he or she is not. Again, it may sound
Speaker 1: like voodoo, but it's the furthest thing from impractical. It's
Speaker 1: the law of the universe. I want to ask Tay
Speaker 1: about what he does in his mule clinics.
Speaker 3: When people ask me what my job is, it can
Speaker 3: be hard to explain, but basically my job is this.
Speaker 3: I use mules and horses to teach people leadership skills.
Speaker 3: So the mule is the vessel through which we teach
Speaker 3: and explain and demonstrate this leadership.
Speaker 4: One of my.
Speaker 3: Favorite sayings is mealmanship is lifemanship. Mealmanship is lifemanship, meaning
Speaker 3: how you work with your mule is how you should
Speaker 3: work with yourself and everything in life.
Speaker 4: I think we can be.
Speaker 3: Better parents if we just use the skills that work
Speaker 3: so good on mules apply that to being a good
Speaker 3: parent to your child.
Speaker 4: There's all kinds of principles.
Speaker 3: That we teach in that. One of them is taking
Speaker 3: ownership of your actions. Jocko Willing calls an extreme ownership.
Speaker 4: He wrote a book about it.
Speaker 3: I think everybody that everybody should read that because it's
Speaker 3: a great leadership book. But this, this idea of extreme
Speaker 3: ownership is basically, it's my fault.
Speaker 4: It's on me in a good way.
Speaker 3: It's not a poor, oh boohoo, pour me way.
Speaker 4: It's hey, this is on me. Let me.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna take ownership with this. I'm gonna fix it.
Speaker 3: So I put the mule. When the mule gets scared,
Speaker 3: I don't say, oh, geezu, this meal is so scared,
Speaker 3: what's wrong with you? Or if the mule does something
Speaker 3: that I'm not happy about, well, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 4: What are you doing? No, I say, okay, how can
Speaker 4: I help you?
Speaker 3: What can I do to change this?
Speaker 4: It's on me. I don't blame the animal. I'm the
Speaker 4: one that brought the mule into my life. In real life,
Speaker 4: it's the same thing.
Speaker 3: I can't get mad at my kid, one my daughters
Speaker 3: for doing something that I didn't explain. Well maybe, and
Speaker 3: I'm definitely, I'm definitely guilty of this. You know, tell
Speaker 3: me go do something, but don't give all the directions
Speaker 3: that you really should because you're in a hurry. Well,
Speaker 3: that's on me. You know, I can't get mad at
Speaker 3: him because I didn't explain it. Well, you know, another
Speaker 3: thing is and we've talked about a little bit, but
Speaker 3: like being flat in your emotions, working with these animals
Speaker 3: and controlling your emotions and being present and getting quiet,
Speaker 3: you know, take that into your life, take that into
Speaker 3: the work, into your office, whatever you do for your
Speaker 3: living to take it to the shop, take it to
Speaker 3: out in the field. You know, something goes wrong, it's
Speaker 3: all right, it's okay, no, big bill, we got this.
Speaker 3: You reset and you go again. You don't need to
Speaker 3: get upset about it. But it doesn't help anything to
Speaker 3: get upset. I figured that out a long time ago
Speaker 3: with meals and horses. Getting upset solves nothing, nothing, It
Speaker 3: doesn't help me. So controlling those emotions is so important
Speaker 3: in every example of life.
Speaker 1: When you talk about going flat, I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of application there with the way that we deal
Speaker 1: with people, because I think we all the time go
Speaker 1: into a relationship, whether it's with your spouse, or with
Speaker 1: your boss, or with your kids or with your neighbor,
Speaker 1: we go into some kind of engagement with a completely
Speaker 1: filled in graph of how this person is going to respond,
Speaker 1: and it influences the way that I even talk to
Speaker 1: them and deal with them, and oftentimes it could be negative.
Speaker 1: And if you came into the situation just thinking the
Speaker 1: best of someone, giving them the opportunity to make the
Speaker 1: right choice, and not preloading the thing with your I
Speaker 1: know they're about to say something stupid or I know
Speaker 1: they're about to do this wrong. And I think people
Speaker 1: would read our will read our confidence, They'll read our
Speaker 1: our intent. I mean, because humans are the same way,
Speaker 1: like a mule can pick up your energy from forty
Speaker 1: feet away, he sees you just the same way with
Speaker 1: your spouse, with your boss, And uh so I really
Speaker 1: like that kind of go flat. It doesn't mean die
Speaker 1: to your emotions. I mean, like emotions are okay if
Speaker 1: they're used right, but but it means don't but don't
Speaker 1: come preloaded thinking how someone's going to respond.
Speaker 3: The science behind this being able to control your emotions
Speaker 3: and be flat like we're talking about, or be neutral
Speaker 3: is learning to self regulate, learning how to have coping skills.
Speaker 1: And that's what you're asking a mule to do too.
Speaker 4: That's exactly it.
Speaker 3: I want the mule to learn coping skills, to learn
Speaker 3: how self regulate. So when I'm trying to get a
Speaker 3: mule to be you know, good in in maybe a
Speaker 3: scary situation or a crossing a big deep river, yeah,
Speaker 3: anything just that they might scare them. Well, I learned
Speaker 3: that they're scared of that, not because they just.
Speaker 4: Want to be wimpy. They don't know.
Speaker 3: It's just like think back when you learn how to
Speaker 3: drive pick up. My dad taught taught us how to drive.
Speaker 3: I was probably I don't know, probably twelve thirteen years old.
Speaker 3: We just drive round out back in our little side
Speaker 3: pasture we had and he just let us drive the
Speaker 3: trucks around.
Speaker 4: Well, I was pretty nervous.
Speaker 3: You know, I was pretty scared to drive in that
Speaker 3: little circle of the pasture.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Well, now I drive, I drive across the country in
Speaker 3: a couple of days. Don't even I mean, don't even
Speaker 3: blink an eye at it. Just it doesn't even phasee
Speaker 3: me to drive, you know. But I learned how to
Speaker 3: deal with those situations a little out of time. With
Speaker 3: the mules, it's the same way. I'm not just going
Speaker 3: to throw them in the deep end. I'm not gonna
Speaker 3: just just totally saturate them with something that's scary. I
Speaker 3: do a little out of time and controlled and do
Speaker 3: you know, engage you a little stimulus. Maybe they're scared
Speaker 3: of some dogs, maybe they're scared of you know anything,
Speaker 3: Walmart bag that'll always get Walmart bags.
Speaker 4: Whatever it is.
Speaker 3: We just do a little out of time and we'll
Speaker 3: expose them to the stress a little bit, and then
Speaker 3: we back off the stress and we wait and let
Speaker 3: them totally self regulate and come down off of that
Speaker 3: small amount of.
Speaker 4: Stress before we add more. That way, we don't trigger stack.
Speaker 3: I don't want to pile this stuff on the mule
Speaker 3: because you might trigger stack, trigger stacked, trigger stack, and
Speaker 3: then that's where you hear people say.
Speaker 4: Wow, the clear blue my mule blew up. No it didn't.
Speaker 3: It's been it's been stacking on the stress. It's just
Speaker 3: like it's just like us getting stressed about something something dumb,
Speaker 3: or you get mad at your your kids or your
Speaker 3: wife over something really petty. Well, it wasn't that little
Speaker 3: thing that you kid did that blew your top. It
Speaker 3: was all the stuff all day that you didn't deal with.
Speaker 3: So when you go work with the mule, you have
Speaker 3: to let all that baggage out yourself. You've got to
Speaker 3: get rid of all that stuff that you're packing in there.
Speaker 3: You've got to set it aside so that you can
Speaker 3: come in neutral and flat, because that's exactly how we
Speaker 3: want our animals to be, and that includes expectations like
Speaker 3: I'm just working my mule from where it's at right
Speaker 3: now today. I'm not thinking about all the things I
Speaker 3: hope it can do forever. And that kind of gets
Speaker 3: confusing because we teach begin with the end in mind,
Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean I have to focus on the
Speaker 3: end result.
Speaker 4: I focus on the process.
Speaker 3: If I focus on the process, I know the result
Speaker 3: will take care of self.
Speaker 1: This idea of being flat of self regulation is a
Speaker 1: powerful idea. I'd like to challenge you to do a
Speaker 1: little exercise sometime in the next couple of days. Pick
Speaker 1: out a stressful moment where emotions and tension have historically
Speaker 1: been high. Think about like when you order for your
Speaker 1: family at a fast food drive through that's stressful for me,
Speaker 1: or when you walk into a crowded room at work,
Speaker 1: or maybe when you catch your hard to catch mule
Speaker 1: in your pasture, or maybe it's a hard conversation with
Speaker 1: a family member. But when that happens, take a deep breath, deep,
Speaker 1: deep breath, hold it for several seconds, then do an
Speaker 1: elongated exhale. Then consciously drop the tension from your face,
Speaker 1: your shoulders, your hands, like release the tension in your muscles,
Speaker 1: and you can almost feel the energy drop to your feet,
Speaker 1: like water pouring out of a bucket with a hole
Speaker 1: in it. This I'm not asking you to have some
Speaker 1: out of body experience. This is a combination of physical
Speaker 1: and mental discipline. When I do this, I feel like
Speaker 1: my blood pressure drops mentally. I then step into a
Speaker 1: space where I'm not concerned with outcomes. I'm not defensive,
Speaker 1: I'm not aggressive, I'm not being pushed, I'm just flat.
Speaker 1: You'll be surprised what you'll be able to accomplish in
Speaker 1: that state of mind. To me, it's about governing your spirit.
Speaker 1: To work with a mule or a horse, you've got
Speaker 1: to be able to be flat. Sometimes, to work with people,
Speaker 1: you've got to be flat. Proverb says that he who
Speaker 1: rules his spirit is better than one who takes a city. Secondly,
Speaker 1: extreme ownership, like Ty was just talking about, it's something
Speaker 1: that I see exemplified in Warner, Glenn and Tie for
Speaker 1: that matter. I found Warner to be fair confident, calm,
Speaker 1: but energetic and productive. And I found his mules to
Speaker 1: reflect that exactly.
Speaker 3: A lot of times people will kind of not understand
Speaker 3: what I do for living, like teaching these clinics and
Speaker 3: doing these leadership chains and stuff. And I tell folks,
Speaker 3: it's kind of like working with a dog. Like you
Speaker 3: could send your dog to the trainer and it has
Speaker 3: all these cool tricks and things that can do. But
Speaker 3: if you don't know how to ask for those tricks
Speaker 3: or ask for those you know, those commands or those things,
Speaker 3: it don't matter what the dog knows, that doesn't matter.
Speaker 4: It only matters what you know. So That's what.
Speaker 3: These clinics do is it helps us build the skills
Speaker 3: that we need. And the cool thing is is all
Speaker 3: these same exact skills that we're working on with mules.
Speaker 4: It's just life. It's just so much life.
Speaker 3: And in fact, you have to work on this stuff
Speaker 3: all day long to be proficient with the mules. In fact,
Speaker 3: do you have to practice all this stuff so.
Speaker 4: That when you finally get to your mule, you're good
Speaker 4: to go the mule.
Speaker 3: There's no such thing as practice to me, it's the
Speaker 3: real thing every single time, when you throw your leg over,
Speaker 3: when you catch them, when you're around them, it's it's
Speaker 3: not practice. You don't practice being around the mule. You're
Speaker 3: around them. So if you want practice, you gotta do
Speaker 3: it all the rest of life and then pre seem
Speaker 3: to get to thinking.
Speaker 4: There's actually no such thing as practice. It's always real life.
Speaker 3: It's always real life for me, something that I like
Speaker 3: to work on a lot. And my coach I mentioned
Speaker 3: Louis Field. He was a great coach to me. He
Speaker 3: taught me so much. One of my favorite things he
Speaker 3: taught me was visualization, like picture it, see it, see
Speaker 3: it in your mind's eye, and so if I'm going
Speaker 3: to go go ride my mule this afternoon work on
Speaker 3: some things. Well, I'm sitting back thinking and visualizing, not
Speaker 3: necessarily all the maneuvers and the training, and I'm going
Speaker 3: to do this and this and this, and it's not
Speaker 3: like that. I'm picturing what I want that interaction to
Speaker 3: be like. I want to feel it. I want to
Speaker 3: feel what that ride is going to be like. If
Speaker 3: we're going to go ride in the mountains of Utah
Speaker 3: and follow some hound dogs on lion hunt, I want
Speaker 3: to what is that going to feel like? What's my
Speaker 3: meal going to be like? I would visualize it having
Speaker 3: a lot of energy, a lot of gold, because it's
Speaker 3: going to need the energy to cover these mountains. I'm
Speaker 3: gonna envision what's going to be like being around dogs,
Speaker 3: and what's it going to be like riding to those trees,
Speaker 3: and what's it smell like, what's the what do the
Speaker 3: pine trees smell like? All this stuff I think about it,
Speaker 3: and you know what, that stuff comes to pass. I'm
Speaker 3: so glad that my coach Liuifield taught me how to visualize,
Speaker 3: and he was very much a proponent of it. He
Speaker 3: has us think about it all the time, and it worked.
Speaker 3: It worked for riding brons back then in rodeo, and
Speaker 3: it works for ride mules, and it works for relationships
Speaker 3: you know, like and it's not just thinking about what
Speaker 3: you want the mule to be. What are you going
Speaker 3: to be to the mule? And that's the same thing
Speaker 3: with an application to life. How do I want my
Speaker 3: mule to perceive me? And if I'm coming to meet you,
Speaker 3: how do I want you to perceive me? How do
Speaker 3: I want you to feel around me? That's important to me.
Speaker 3: And there's a similarity to how you make people feel,
Speaker 3: how you're going to make a mule feel, how you're
Speaker 3: going to make a dog feel. It's all the same.
Speaker 3: It's all the same in life, and that's important to me.
Speaker 3: I work hard of that and I try to share
Speaker 3: that with my students. Anybody I'll get a chance with
Speaker 3: is to think about that.
Speaker 1: That's pretty deep water, tie, And I don't think that
Speaker 1: he's being mystical, but I find this to be very practical.
Speaker 1: There's definitely components of biblical faith inside of this functional
Speaker 1: discipline of what he's calling visualization. I think it could
Speaker 1: be described as having an active faith about how something
Speaker 1: is going to go. I've view true biblical faith as
Speaker 1: more practical than I've seen it portrayed in society, and frankly,
Speaker 1: as i've seen it portrayed in much of the Christian Church.
Speaker 1: The statement I've just made is like an iceberg, and
Speaker 1: that's the ten percent of that iceberg that's sticking above
Speaker 1: the water. There's ninety percent below it that that didn't
Speaker 1: really fit for me to share in this silly podcast,
Speaker 1: And this format is far too personal. It's stuff that's
Speaker 1: not meant to be broadcast across the airwaves. It's the
Speaker 1: stuff you've got to fight for that's really got to
Speaker 1: be real inside of you. But I will add one
Speaker 1: layer to this idea of visualization as well, showing a
Speaker 1: little bit more of the iceberg, and that's to add
Speaker 1: to that visualization declarative prayer. I think humans have a
Speaker 1: very unique thing inside of us where we can reach
Speaker 1: out to the Creator. The words we say with our
Speaker 1: mouth are powerful, as well as the thoughts that we think.
Speaker 1: Whether you believe in God or not, you will generally
Speaker 1: become what you think and say about yourself. So think
Speaker 1: and say accurate things. Don't be deceived about your capabilities
Speaker 1: or be humble and say noble and powerful things. Think
Speaker 1: these things not from a place of ambition, but from
Speaker 1: a desire to be a whole, functional human. In closing,
Speaker 1: and on a very practical note, if you're interested in mules,
Speaker 1: I'd suggest going to one of the big mule sells
Speaker 1: across the country. But don't go there to buy a mule.
Speaker 1: Go there to talk to the people there about mules,
Speaker 1: because they're there, and you'd learn a ton very quickly
Speaker 1: just by talking to some folks. There are mule cells
Speaker 1: all over the country, but there are some big ones
Speaker 1: in Aight, Oklahoma in the spring and fall. The Chrome
Speaker 1: and the Canyon mule sell and Bryce Canyon, Utah is
Speaker 1: a really good one. The Salmon Selects Sale and sam
Speaker 1: And Idaho is a big one. The Reese Brothers mule
Speaker 1: Sale in Lebanon, Tennessee is huge. The Jake Clark Sale
Speaker 1: in Ralston, Wyoming, the Horses and Hounds mule Sale in
Speaker 1: New Mexico, the Boone County Draft Horse and mule Sale
Speaker 1: in Sedalia, Missouri. I mean, there are hundreds of horse
Speaker 1: and mule sells, but these are some of the big ones,
Speaker 1: and there are countless others that I've left out, so
Speaker 1: please forgive me, mule folks. But there's a pretty big
Speaker 1: learning curve when you get into equines and it just
Speaker 1: takes some dedication. But I could have never done it
Speaker 1: without the help of just people talking to me. Thank you,
Speaker 1: guys so much for listening to Bear Grease. I hope
Speaker 1: that you've enjoyed this episode. Thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: Brent and this country life podcast and for Lake in
Speaker 1: the Backwoods University. And please go follow my friend Ty
Speaker 1: Evans at ts mules on Instagram and check out his podcast.
Speaker 1: And keep the wild places wild because that's where the
Speaker 1: bears live.