WEBVTT - Ep. 415: The Thing About Mule Skinners 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:09.360 This episode is something that I'm passionate about, mules and 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.319 mule riders or mule skinners as they're called. We'll talk 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.960 about why that we use mules, how they compare to horses, 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.680 and how they rise and fall to the experience of 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.880 their rider. And we're going to have a couple of 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.080 very unique people talking to us about this. We're gonna 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:30.960 hear again from trainer and clinician Ty Evans about mulemanship. 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:33.879 But you're in for a treat because we'll also hear 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:39.040 from legendary Arizona cowboy Warner Glinn. That's right, Beargreas Hall 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.480 of Famer Warner Glenn. Once again. I think you're gonna 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.000 be surprised by what we're gonna learn as we listen 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.320 to these guys talk about mules. I really doubt that 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.360 you're gonna want to miss this one. 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.280 A lot of the old timers rats that Warner, why 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:59.080 do you ride mules t hunt rather than horses? And 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.720 I said, well, tell you the truth. I just you know, 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:08.200 I just don't feel as sorry for mules. Can I 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.520 forge that going to take him and be both or 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:15.199 she and me? By and large, most of the Mountain 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.600 Lion hunters in our area use mules now most of 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:23.360 the type. 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.720 My name is Clay Knukelem and this is the Bear 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:36.720 Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:40.479 for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.639 story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:50.360 Presented by f h F gear, American made purpose built 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.080 hunting and fishing gear as designed to be as rugged 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:55.760 as the place as we explore. 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.120 Thank you Lord for this food, and thank you Lord 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.520 for the guidance of safety you've given us today. And 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:11.919 please watch over to the night and give us a 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:16.440 a good night's rest on it man. 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:20.240 One of the most unique and impacting experiences of my 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.960 life has been the time that I've spent with Warner. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:28.040 Glenn Warner is now ninety years old, and in twenty 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.760 twenty two I was able to ride mules and lion 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.200 hunt with him near his home in Douglas, Arizona. The 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.919 southern border of his ranch is the US Mexican border. 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:41.960 Warner is a cattle rancher and a dry ground lion hunter. 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:43.760 He's a true cowboy. 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.960 Now, Claire will try a little Jesse pooka. 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.080 If you've heard the super puncher Dale Brisbee harassed me 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.960 about my mule. You might get the impression that cowboys 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.280 don't like mules, and some don't. I've learned that a 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.520 lot of rodeo cowboys don't like them, but the cowboy 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.200 hunters that I know love them. And I just did 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.399 something out of the ordinary. I asked chat GPT, that's right, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:34.120 chat GPT, if there were any common themes among mule owners, 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.800 and it quickly spit out seven things. And I'd like 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:42.080 to read you the list that it said. Number one, 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:48.240 mule owners value function over flash. Number two. Mule owners 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:54.040 are comfortable with earned trust, trust that's negotiated, not demanded. 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.200 Number three. Mule writers have a high tolerance for stubbornness 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.920 and like animals that assess risk. Number four, they have 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:08.400 a strong rural, working backcountry connection mule writers do. Number five. 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.920 Mule writers are skeptical of hype and authority. Number six. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.919 Mule writers tend to be loyal once convinced. But mule 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.400 owners may be slow to adopt new ideas, but once 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.840 they believe in something, they stick with it, defend it passionately, 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:31.159 evangelize it quietly through results. This mirrors how mules themselves. 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.080 Operate number seven, the last one that chat GPT spit out. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:40.240 Mule writers are often experienced animal people. In summary, it 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:44.560 says mule owners tend to be pragmatic, independent, patient people 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:50.960 who value intelligence, self preservation, and earned partnership over obedience 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:56.000 and appearance. That was a wild trip. Based on what 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.560 I know of Warner, Glenn and ty Evans, these things 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.320 sound about right. I want to talk with Warner. This 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.440 interview is from twenty twenty one when I was down 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.400 in Douglas, Arizona, and I want to ask him about 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:10.480 his history with mules. 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.880 In cattle work here on the rent, we like to 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.720 use horses. They're a little more responsive than that type 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.680 of thing. We're just although we use mules a lot 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:23.800 of times. We don't have the horses up if we 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:27.039 have to work in cattle, but in the hunting. But 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:28.960 that and I use a lot of horses. When they 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.640 first started, early in the fourties and early fifties and sixties, 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.840 we were horseback most of the time, even because we were 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.320 raising all those horses in the mountains. Yeah, and we 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.640 were breaking them ourselves, so they were good mountain horses. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:44.120 It's kind of hard to find a good mountain horse now, 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.520 But we want to use mules. We use mules all 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.599 together now when we're hunting. They take care of themselves 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.160 in that rough, rugged country. They hardly ever get crippled, ever, 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.040 hardly ever get hurt. If they do happen to fall 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.120 with you. And I'm not saying a mule won't fall 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.400 with you, they will have them fall with me. But 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.480 usually when they get in a real bad place and 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.240 fall or get in the tight situation there, they're kind 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.440 of relaxing. Wait a minute. They don't panic, where a 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.520 horse will usually panic and go to london or kicking 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.719 and get freddy. Well, you might find one occasionally that would, 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.320 but most mules settle down and take a kind of 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.600 ease out of a tough situation. And in doing that 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.520 they allow you time to step out of the middle 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.120 of the trouble too. They're not they're not lundon and fighting. 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:35.600 And I tell you when you get it, when they 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.440 go down with if there's a pause, taught you better 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.440 take advantage of you better get out of the way. 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:45.039 I'm gonna remember that. Yeah, Hey, you told me a 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.719 statement today. You said you said, we've had some good 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:49.880 mountain horses, but I sure felt sorry for it. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.400 Oh yeah. Well, a lot of the old timers around said, wonder, 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.560 why do you rude mules all the time hunting rather 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.599 than horses, And I said, well, to tell you the truth, 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.880 i'd you know, I just don't feel as sorry for 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:07.400 a mule as I do a horse. Can I figure 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.200 that mule was going to take him and me both 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.480 and showing me. I'm not saying there's not some good 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:16.720 mountain horses still around. Some of the hunters still use 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.000 horses quite a bit, but by and large, most of 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.160 the mountain lion hunters in our area use mules and 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:24.440 meals most of the time. 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.320 Tell me about tell me about your mule Machomo. 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.280 Well, I tell you yeah. And he came out of 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.120 Mexico where at that time that this would have been 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:37.000 like fifty six, fifty seven, fifty eight, nineteen fifty six, 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.520 fifty seventy, we were doing a lot of hunting in 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.680 the northern part of Sonora in these mountains you didn't 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:45.520 see from here in south it was. And they had 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.480 a mule called Motobo down there that one of the 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.560 wranglers down there was riding. So when we came out 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.440 of there. The rancher was making Armando Marella. He was 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.120 making some really good horses. He had bonds of real 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.160 fancy stud and he said for payment for catching some 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.040 of the lines down, and then he said, wonder on when 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.480 he gave you one of these good horses. And I said, man, 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.360 I know, I said, I would really rather have that 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:16.440 baby mule called. He said you would, and I said yeah. 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.800 So he gave me the mule. That's where he came from, 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:21.640 and he's one of the best mules I've ever hit. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:21.800 There. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.720 He was a little wild and rank. At first, I 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.040 got ridy. He kicked me a time or two, really bad, 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.400 but he got over that. When he got about eighteen 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.600 nineteen years old, he got. 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.960 I took a while. What was your favorite mule of 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:35.440 all time? 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.120 Well, I tell you I've had a lot of them, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.680 but of all time, if I had my pick for 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.560 one to stay with, I had a white mule called 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:49.040 Shnoy River and he would want He would do anything 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.080 you wanted to do it, and he would do it good. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.680 And he was willing. He never balked. I mean he 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.360 was good rough country. You could go ahead of cow 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.840 and I mean you work cattle all you were doing, 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.280 just a good all around mule butt. 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.600 He carry a line too, Oh yeah, yeah, he carried 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:07.120 a loah. 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.400 Yeah, it's some most of our I tell you, they're 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.280 not afraid of the lion as much as you are. 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.680 Bear it seems like our mules here, of course they don't. 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.559 We don't bear hunt much. It's just very rare that 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.800 they're even around him. I've had I'm riding. You'll see 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.880 her in the morning, videan. She's she's one of those. 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:28.840 How big a mule do you like? 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:32.320 I don't. I don't like him too big. I like him. 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.600 It weighs probably ten fifty to twelve fifty. 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:37.560 These are pretty big mules you've got, though, I mean, 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.439 they're some of the more sixteen hands probably are they that. 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:42.640 A couple of couple of them probably are. 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:44.880 You're a big, big guy, they're they're. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.559 A little bigger than those are good mules, the ones 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:49.920 we got now, But I'd rather have a little smaller one. 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.959 I'd rather have one. Snowy River was probably he'd probably 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:58.000 weighed ten to fifty something like that. When he would 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.960 drawing down, Yeah, drawn down, good condition. Mortoba would have 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:02.480 been too. 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.920 Yeah, it's clear that Warner knows a thing or two 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.080 about mules, and he's probably put as many miles in 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.920 the saddle of a mule as any living person. Where 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.920 as a rancher, a practitioner, and a man of function 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.880 don't have no doubt he could train a mule, He's 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.440 not necessarily a mule trainer. That's not where he's focused. 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.200 Ty Evans is less than half of Warner's age and 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:31.240 has spent inordinate amounts of time training mules, and his 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.960 expertise comes from a slightly different angle. Ti is a 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.559 methodical student of the mule, and in the last episode 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.240 we learned about Tie's transformation as a trainer, going from 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.600 the cowboy way of bucking a mule out and demanding 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:52.000 its submission and allegiance to using the principles of natural horsemanship, 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.320 where trust is earned and freely given, rather than taking 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.600 using the herd mentality and leaning in to the way 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:04.280 a mule thinks to gain its trust kind of inside 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.680 its natural order. But I want to get back to 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.040 the basics with Tie Evans. 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.439 So a mule is a cross between a horse and 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:21.680 a donkey, a female horse and a male donkey. Jack Okay, 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:27.000 and that makes the hybrid we're crossing. We're acrossing these 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:33.120 species here. It's that hybrid makes all kinds of advantages. 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:34.440 For performance animals. 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.120 It just makes them double tough, makes a lot of 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:45.800 unique things. Mules shine the best in rough country. The 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.360 rougher it is, the more they shine. Now that doesn't 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.080 mean you can't use mules for all the gentle stuff too, 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.880 And you might not be riding rough country. You might 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.840 be riding something pretty mild. You might be just riding 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.440 in the arena. Maybe you want to just do some masage. 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:05.920 Maybe you want to just do some arena events. That's okay, 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.760 and they do good there too. The diversity is awesome. 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.120 But I'll tell you what. The mules shines in the mountains. 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.840 It shines in the rough country. It shines in using 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.400 them day after day, year after year. The longevity that 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:23.480 they have. And you know that's why historically they have 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.880 been beasts of burden too. You know, people have used 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:26.640 them historically. 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.640 The horse gets all the credit for the West, but 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:31.840 the mules made the West. They really did. 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.640 There's you know, mules were very valuable to pioneers and 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.720 I come from pioneer heritage on you know, multiple sides, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.720 and they came over with mules, and they made this 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:45.640 country with meals. 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.440 They plowed the fields with mules, They mined with mules. 0:12:48.960 --> 0:13:04.800 Mules made the West and pretty cool. I have so 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.839 much respect for the mule. I've seen what they can do. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.200 From the some of the I'll admit, some of the 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.480 dumb situations I have put a mule in, I have 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.600 seen what they can do and how they can get 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.640 me out of those situations, and they can reverse those 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.840 choices I made. You know, I've put my mules into 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:30.360 situations that are very challenging technically in the mountains in 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.200 the Red Rock Country of Utah, and I owe so 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:39.679 much to them. I also love the mule because of 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:45.440 their unique and dynamic personalities. A lot of people will 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.680 describe will describe them as kind of doglike, and I 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.320 can agree with that. You know, they do kind of 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.480 have more of a dog like personality. Yeah, And I've 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:58.600 had some horses with great personalities, don't get me wrong, 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.000 But the mules just more so. And that was one 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.200 of Tom Dorance's sayings. He said, the mule is just 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.960 like the horse, only more so. And so it just 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.680 seemed like if you've got a really friendly mual. They're 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.920 really friendly, you know, And I love that about them. 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:21.160 I love how forgiving they are. And that's actually a 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:22.560 myth that a lot of people have, is that they're 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:23.240 not forgiving. 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.920 Oh come on, everybody, you know. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.080 They're forgiving all the stuff that all the stuff that 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.080 the mule has put up with me and forgiven me 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.120 for I make mistakes every time I ride, every time 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.560 I rode today, rode twenty miles a day, I made 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.800 all kinds of mistakes, and that mule is gonna forgive me, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.520 and I'm gonna fix it. I'll be better tomorrow. And 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.160 I love that about the animal there. They like to 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.320 feel comfortable. So you might have messed up big time. 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.880 And if you can just help them feel comfortable, get 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.040 yourself right, and you help them get comfortable, they're good 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:03.720 to go. The hybrid vi is top notch. That is 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.280 what makes the mule that highbred vigor. It's not for everybody. 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:09.480 That's probably why I like the mule too. It is 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.800 because not everybody likes the mule, and that's okay, that's 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:13.240 all right. 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:14.800 But that high bred. 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.120 Vigor, oh my gosh, that's what makes them so durable 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.760 and so tough, and they can go and then not 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.040 only can they go today, but they can go tomorrow. 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:27.640 And I love that. 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:33.120 I really love that in them. There's nothing better than 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.880 riding a mule and just going up a crazy steep 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.880 side hill of a mountain, scratching through rocks, and that 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.600 thing is just powering up it. 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:45.640 It's just so cool. 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:50.200 You just fill that under you and you're thinking that 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.640 they might get tired, and then they give you more. 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.040 You know, you take a lunch break and just let 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:57.840 them relax a little while, and then they're. 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:02.920 Charged up for the afternoon. And I really appreciate that. Also, 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:04.600 the diversity of. 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.480 The meal, Oh man, you can do everything with them, 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.280 Like I can go my meals. I can go trail 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:14.760 ride with them, I can go packing, I can go hunt, 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.400 I can go rope and work cows. My daughter likes 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.440 to bail race. She'll take the meal of the bail race. 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:23.840 You know, she might not be winning. 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.160 You know, if you're gonna ask me what should I 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.320 get for bill racing, probably get a horse. I'm not 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.520 gonna suggest meal for bell racing. But she has fun 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:33.240 on that meal, and that meal takes big care of 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.520 her in that brail race. So the dice, the diversity 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:46.520 is one of my favorite things about it too. 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:51.400 Right, ride a little one this morning, Go Rosalie. 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.280 That's the name of the meal you're putting me on? 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:58.720 How old is this meal? 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.920 Problem with it? She's about seventeen seventeen, Yeah, and it's 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.080 too bad. You hate to see them, You're like, you know. 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.680 So this is your go to meal. This is what's 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:12.359 this meal's name? 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:13.119 Yeah, Vivian? 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:13.879 How old is she? 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.200 Vid? She got to be about fifteen years old. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:19.399 This is your this is the one you go to 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:20.280 when you got. 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:24.160 To well, youm I write this at least other every 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.040 other day. I've got three. I'm ride per regular, Ridger 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:32.000 and Vivian and uh Brayer, Yeah so and Kelly. She 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.480 got Rosalie and Pete and some of those others. 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.280 When when does the mule get just right and at. 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:44.359 Depend depends on a long but but I tell you what, 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.080 as far as being general and trustworthy and everything, I 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:52.040 would say like six or seven really to where you 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.320 could trust them with anybody. Yeah, right down there, and 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.160 you can you can write him into two or three. 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.199 But you better be ready for a little wreck of it. 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.280 Should have you know, should they're just not used to it. Yeah, 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.440 and all should these mountain I tell you they're hard 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:08.879 on you. 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:14.879 Yeah. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:09.920 Yeah. 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.400 Warner's knowledge of animals comes from time in the saddle, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.159 evaluating how they navigate backcountry, and he's been in a 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.480 lot of bad wrecks. As a matter of fact, he's 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.879 been life flighted out of the back country once after 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.159 a very bad wreck, and so has his daughter Kelly. 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.840 He's been in some harry spots. He told me once 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.359 about a mule rolling over and flipping over him, but 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.560 he didn't get hurt. I had one experience with Warner 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.720 that I'll never tire of telling. Once I was following 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.200 him in Arizona and the dogs went over the top 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.600 of a high mountain. Warner basically turned and said to me, 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.360 follow me, Clay, and he sent the rest of our 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.639 crew around the mountain, but I was supposed to follow him. 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.440 We proceeded up the steepest, roughest half mile mule scramble 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.040 that I had ever been on. At the time, Warner 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.480 was ponying a pack mule. That means he was leading 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.800 a pack mule. Mules were slipping and sliding and scrambling, 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.879 and we were getting raked by limbs and mules were 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:20.400 jumping folders, and he never once looked back to see 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.119 if I was there. Once we got to the top, 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.440 he never acknowledged that it was a hard stretch. I 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.919 kind of expected him to turn around and be like, wow, Claire, 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.360 you okay, good job, but he never did, which then 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.800 made me wonder if that was in fact a hard 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:39.840 ride for him, because I knew it was for me. 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.520 So that night at the dinner table, I cautiously asked him. 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.040 I said, Warner, if you had to rank that hill 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.320 that we climbed today on a scale of one to ten, 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.440 and a one was walking your mule down a gravel road, 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.800 and a tin was that you were dead, what do 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:02.440 we do today? I waited anticipation as he paused and 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.240 thought for a minute. He and I kind of thought 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.320 he might say, oh, Clay, that was about a three 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:12.280 or four or five. But then he said, Clay, I'd 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.399 say that was about an eight. He said, if it 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.080 had been much rougher than that, you couldn't have done it. 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.240 And I smiled and had a little sigh of relief 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.080 and went on to eat dinner with him. I'll never 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.520 forget that here's tie evens. 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:36.000 The mule will rise or fall to their humans level 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:41.359 of experience and understanding. So, for example, at this point 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.600 in my career, I feel pretty confident that I could 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.879 take a mule that's pretty scared or worried or what 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.840 somebody else might call problem, and I could help that mule. 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.199 I could add value to that mule's life, and I 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.440 could bring it up to my level. 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.520 However, on the other hand, and if. 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:05.520 If somebody is very inexperienced or doesn't have a lot 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:10.879 of understanding or or the abilities, capabilities, all these things, 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.399 and they get a mule like that, well this is 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:17.800 this is bad news. There's the saying green on green 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:21.359 is black and blue. Well, that's not too far off 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.720 from the truth. On the other hand, too, I suppose 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.359 that person with a lot of with not a lot 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.680 of experience, they might buy a mule that is really 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:34.080 awesome and they think it's a you know, a turn 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:35.040 key operation. 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.000 Right, this this meal is ready to go. 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.320 But if that person doesn't continue to get better and 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:44.080 to grow, that mule will that mual and that person 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:45.840 will meet in the middle. At some point that mule 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.440 is gonna come down. The mule doesn't get to keep 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:53.080 that level of training, that level of skill. You can 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:54.679 think of it kind of like a knife, Like if 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:56.800 you just got you might have the sharpest knife in 0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:58.840 the world, the best knife you ever had, and you 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:01.600 just leave it out. You don't take care of that knife. 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.000 You don't do anything to keep that knife sharp. Even 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:07.000 though you're not using that knife. That knife is good 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:12.280 adult just from being just just sitting outside. 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.840 It's going to go downhill. Well, that's what happens to 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:16.440 the meals too. 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:19.359 They got a meal, they bought a nice meal. It's awesome, 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:20.640 but it's just sitting outside. 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:22.639 You got to keep that thing sharp. 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.240 You've got to get yourself sharp to keep that sharp. 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:30.800 And that's something in life I've learned with anything, any 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:34.600 type of knowledge in life, any skill in life. 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:36.200 If you're not getting. 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.560 Better at whatever it is you do, whether it's mealmanship 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:44.399 or hunting or playing a guitar, if you're not getting better, 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:48.160 you're actually getting worse. We don't in this whole life. 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.760 We don't get to just stay the same. We're different 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.399 now at the end of the toward the end of 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:57.800 this conversation than we were at the beginning of the conversation. 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:00.520 We know more, we've learned, we've. 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:03.920 Chatted, we've talked, and things have changed, you know, they 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:05.680 really have. You don't get to be the same person 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.199 you We won't be the same person tomorrow as we 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:10.000 are today. And it's the same thing with the mule. 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:11.600 They're changing, so we better keep up. 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.360 I hope this conversation has given us insight into the 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.520