1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is an award 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: winning writer, author, and investigative journalist. His New York Times 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: best selling books include Rogues, Empire of Pain, and Say Nothing. 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: Patrick raden Keith is also a staff writer of The 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: New Yorker, and his work has been recognized with the 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: National Magazine Award, the National Book Critics Circle Award, and 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: the Orwell Prize for Political Writing. His nonfiction books Say Nothing, 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: was named by The New York Times as one of 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: the twenty best books of the twenty first century, and 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: it has since been adapted as a limited series for Hulu. 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: This was not the first time raden Keith's work inspired 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: a series. 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: I was also an executive producer on a series last 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: year on Netflix called Painkiller, which was. 16 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: With Matthew Yes, you were involved in that. That's loosely 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: based on your my Socer reporting. Its SACER reporting for 18 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: The New York So of course, the idea that you 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: write a book at you and at some point an 20 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: editor you work on that kind of stuff and it's 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: a thousand people. Yeah, it was somewhat involved in some way. 22 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: Of making your project helping to realize it. How did 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: the difference feel to you? 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: Well, on Painkiller, I was involved in a much more 25 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: arms length kind of way. There was one thing produce 26 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: eily I did on that project that made a big difference, 27 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: which is, at a certain point we were in kind 28 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: of a culd sack. It wasn't going to get made 29 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 2: where it had originally started, and I brought it to 30 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: a producer friend of mine, Eric Newman, who had a 31 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: deal with Netflix, and that was my one big contribution 32 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: to that show. But creatively I wasn't all that involved. 33 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: Say nothing was much different. The book when it was finished, 34 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: felt like exactly the book I had wanted to write, 35 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: but also a book about material. It's pretty fraught, and 36 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: so we never sent it out to the town. We 37 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: never showed it to a bunch of different producers. What 38 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: happened was there was a friend of mine who read 39 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: the book, a guy named Brad Simpson who had known 40 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: for about ten years, who is a producer. Brad's wonderful, 41 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: and he works with a woman named Jacobson, and they 42 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 2: had made the People versus O. J. Simpson, which I 43 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 2: thought was kind of an exemplary limited series about another 44 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: vexed issue, race in America, and their pitch to me was, 45 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: if you give us the rights of the book, we 46 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: won't go away and make a show and come back 47 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: with the show. We'll bring you along and you'll be 48 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: there every day through the process. And that was appealing 49 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: to me in a number of respects. I mean partially 50 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 2: because it ended up being like going to producing school. 51 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: I learned so much working with them, and also because 52 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: I got to be in the middle of the thing 53 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: and have in theory a kind of custodial role where 54 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: I'm there protecting the book and protecting the work. In practice, 55 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: as you say, there was a learning curve for me 56 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: because you get into the middle of it and you 57 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: realize that you know, you're one voice in the room, 58 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 2: and it's a privilege to be a voice in the room, 59 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: but you're not the only voice, and you're not the 60 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: last voice. 61 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 1: I have found over the years when I would make 62 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: films of whatever scope and budget. Eventually, over the years 63 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: what I learned is that let's talk money first. Don't 64 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: give any notes. I never give notes to directors and 65 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: writers and producers that expand the schedule and add money, 66 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: change locations change cities. 67 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: Why don't we shoot this in Paris? 68 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, at the foot of the Eiffel Tower instead of 69 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: the Gowanis Canal, you know whatever, because the money has 70 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: become now so precious. How A guy walk to me 71 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: on the street the other day, he said, do you 72 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: have any advice for me? I said, you can't love everything. 73 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: You divide all your scenes in the movie into two categories, 74 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: the ones we like and the ones we love. And 75 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: it says Bob gets out of the car, walks into 76 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: the bank, do it in one shot and move on. 77 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: I mean, just that idea that everything I learned beyond 78 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: screenwriting and character and so forth and acting, and I 79 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: learned how to speak money. 80 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 3: And budget with those people. 81 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: But it's also kind of triage, right, So yeah, I 82 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: mean the experience of writing a book. 83 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 3: How long did it take you to write that book? 84 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: Four years, depending on how you account because initially it 85 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: was a piece in the New Yorker, and I didn't 86 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: take any book leaves, so I was working full time 87 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: at the magazine on other things as I was writing 88 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: the book. So it took a while. But I wasn't 89 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: just working on the book. But you have total control 90 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: or near total control of each word. So there was 91 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: the sort of humbling experience of getting into the big 92 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: machine where there are budgets and schedules and other producers 93 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: and you're dealing with actors and they have ideas. But 94 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: there's also just the experience. And I think this is 95 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: maybe what you're getting at, which is that when the 96 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: cost of a day is what it is, there's a 97 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: kind of creative triage that you have to do that 98 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: As a nonfiction writer, where the stakes are so much lower, 99 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: in a way, you just don't I mean, I'm working 100 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 2: on a book now, and I might finish next month, 101 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: I might finish in June, I might finish it next year. 102 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 2: And it's not that people won't be unhappy if the 103 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: timeline extends, but nobody's going to lose their job over it. 104 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: When the timeline extends. Is there a typical reason? Does 105 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: it always change? 106 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: My hope would be that if I turn in a 107 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: book that feels like it's half baked, I'm gonna hear 108 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: about it and somebody will say, doesn't feel right, Yeah, nice, 109 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: try go back and do it again. 110 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 3: You have a constant editor, the same editor, so. 111 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: I've been working with the same editor both at the 112 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: magazine and my book publisher. I started with these two 113 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 2: guys in two thousand and six, so we're going on 114 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 2: twenty years. 115 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 3: Gots when you began at the New Yorker. 116 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: Yes, in terms of writing in general, when you submit 117 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: to The New Yorker and you write Columbia, does Columbia 118 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: have some formal pipeline to the New Yorker in terms 119 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,239 Speaker 1: of its journalistic mantle? 120 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: The Columbia School of Journalism? 121 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: So if we do the but how does or do 122 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: you come from a family that owns like steel mills 123 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: or something where where the New Yorker picks up the 124 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: phone and takes your submissions. 125 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 3: Now do you get in there when you're a young 126 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 3: college student? 127 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 4: Well? 128 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 3: I didn't. 129 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 2: That was the whole thing, is that. I what I'm 130 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 2: going to describe now will seem like a vanished time. 131 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety seven nineteen ninety eight, what I was 132 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: doing was writing things, going to Kinko's, printing them out, 133 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 2: putting them in a yellow envelope, or nailing them to 134 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: the New Yorker, and then I would get back a 135 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: paper rejection slip. And I started doing that probably my 136 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: junior year of college, which was crazy. I mean it 137 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: was there was unbelievable hubris in thinking that I had 138 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 2: any place pitching The New Yorker at all, and I 139 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: pitched them for seven years before they accepted something. 140 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: I could see the un vote now Keith in the 141 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: corner one hundred and fifty first, and I mean, this 142 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: is the thing dropped by the bridge. 143 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 3: Truly. 144 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: It's like the East Campus dormitory. You know, sweet ten Ceah. 145 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 3: But when you leave, you go to law school. 146 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: You don't finish law school, and you come back and 147 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: finish law school correct and take the bar. Okay, why 148 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: no law career. 149 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: I sort of went to law school with a bit 150 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: of bad faith. I had this idea, actually even before college, 151 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: that it would be cool to be a New Yorker writer, 152 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: not a journalist, not a magazine journalist, but a writer 153 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: for the New Yorker. And I wasn't able to make 154 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: it happen in terms of just connections or good ideas 155 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: or the wherewithal or the good writing or whatever it 156 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: was that it would have taken to get an assignment. 157 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: I couldn't get it. Who was in charge then Tina 158 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: Brown initially, and then Remnick. Yeah, I mean Remnick was 159 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: sort of I was pitching at it right around the 160 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: time that Remnick took over, and I went off to 161 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: grad school in the UK for a couple of years, 162 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: which was kind of an easy choice because I got 163 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: a fellowship. It was effectively free. It was like, do 164 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: you want to go on live in England for a 165 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 2: few years and go to grad school? 166 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: Yes? I do. 167 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: And at that point I liked being in school. I 168 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: liked being a student. I thought it was a great lifestyle. 169 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: I thought I haven't made it work as a journalist yet, 170 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: so I'm going to buy some time and if I 171 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: go to law school. The upside is if I really 172 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: whiff and I never get an assignment from the New Yorker, 173 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: I'll have a good fallback. I would say to any 174 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: young aspiring journalists listening, this is not the best way 175 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: to approach the ambition. It is a time consuming, indirect 176 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: expensive I'll be. 177 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: Over here waiting for you to call me at law 178 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: school exactly. 179 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: But that's what I did, and I ended up getting 180 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: not a magazine assignment. Initially, I got a book deal 181 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: my first year in law school and took some time 182 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: off to write that book. And the book was it 183 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: was a book called Chatter, about eavesdropping by government agencies. 184 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: I thought I would pick a really easy subject for 185 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: a non fiction book, and so I wrote about the 186 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: most secretive agency of the US government, the National Security Agency. 187 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: When I did the movie Hunt For at October and 188 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: I sat there with Tom Clancy, the Tom Clancy, and 189 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: I said, you know, you're this master storyteller. I said, 190 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: where did it all come from? He said, well, A 191 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: lot of it was research. And he said, I would 192 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: sit with people. I would contact people, they have lunch 193 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: with me, they have a drink with me, and they'd 194 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: give me information on a non attribution basis. And he 195 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: goes in the third part with my imagination, Yeah, do 196 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: you go there? You're how old when you start the 197 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: book Chatter? 198 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: Ah? God, I was young. I was inind of mid twenties. 199 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: So when you're calling people to get some information about this, 200 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: what's their attitude toward you? 201 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 2: I mean, if I was calling from the Washington Post, 202 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: they wouldn't have taken the call. And I'm saying, I 203 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: am a first year law student in New Haven who's 204 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: never written a book before, you know, published a few 205 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 2: articles in his high school newspaper. I had no business 206 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: writing that book. I had sort of a funny experience. 207 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 2: This was at a time when there was a lot 208 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: of consolidation happening in the big publishers, and I ended 209 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: up with four different editors on that book because they 210 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: kept getting fired. But one of them was a wonderful 211 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: woman I'm still in touch with, named Eileen Smith. When 212 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: I was halfway through the book, Allen Smith suggested that 213 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: I read this book by Jeff Dyer called Out of 214 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: Sheer Rage. It's a book about DH Lawrence, but it's 215 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 2: really a book about how Jeff Dyer is having trouble 216 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: writing a book about DH Lawrence and chatter perhaps unduly 217 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 2: influenced by Dyer that came about Patrick Hughes failure to 218 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: write a book about the NSA and what does that 219 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: mean for us as citizens? And YadA, YadA, YadA. It 220 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: is not a book that I look back on now 221 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: with a great surge of pride. 222 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: Why did you choose that as your first book? Meaning 223 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: in your childhood, in your development of your sensibilities about 224 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: politics and the economy and society, what have you? What 225 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: was it you like for you, politically, culturally, educationally as 226 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: a child, I grew. 227 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: Up in a neighborhood called Dorchester in Boston, which is 228 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 2: part of the city of Boston. It's the biggest neighborhood 229 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 2: in Boston. It is economically, racially, ethnically very diverse. And 230 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: my mother taught at UMass Boston, which is the big 231 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: public university, which is actually in Dorchester. My father worked 232 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 2: in state government. He worked for Mikeducaucus. I'm similarly kind 233 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: of progressive, democratic politics obsessed background. You know, my mother 234 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: was a professor of philosophy. The house was full of books. 235 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 3: You're a good student, I was. I. 236 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: So it's funny. I grew up in Dorchester and I 237 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: went to a fancy private school. I went to a 238 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: school called Milton Academy, which is just outside of Boston, 239 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: very good prep school. It was a great school at 240 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: which I felt pretty mediocre because it was such a 241 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: concentration of brilliant, hard working kids. And I had a 242 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 2: kind of an impulse that I was a smart kid, 243 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: but I didn't necessarily on a curve. I didn't have 244 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 2: the grades to show it, because there's always some other 245 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: the NFL, some other genius there. 246 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: We got outge right right. 247 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: So for me, there was this kind of funny experience 248 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: where I didn't, you know, out of high school and 249 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 2: I applied to Columbia, I didn't get in. I took 250 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: a year off, I applied again. I got to Columbia 251 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 2: where there was a little bit more of a Bell 252 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 2: curve in terms of people's motivation and ability. And it 253 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: was the first time in my life where I felt 254 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: like there was a kind of input output ratio where 255 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: I was, you know, getting good grades and feelings though 256 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 2: if you if you do the work, you get the rewards. 257 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: So this first book, I'm just always curious about this 258 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: kind of origins and the thing you choose this book 259 00:11:58,600 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: why to seem. 260 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 2: Like a kids from a very specific place. So I 261 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: finished college, I go off to the UK. I was 262 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: at Cambridge University for a year where I studied international relations, 263 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,479 Speaker 2: and then I went into the London School of Economics. 264 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 2: When I was at Cambridge, this is ninety nine, two thousand, 265 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: there was an investigation happening in the European Parliament into 266 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: this thing that they called Echelon. And I had never 267 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 2: heard of this, but Echelon had kind of been revealed 268 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: in a little bit of investigative reporting, and the idea 269 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 2: was that the US and four of its allies sometimes 270 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: known as the Five Eyes, but basically the US, Canada, Australia, 271 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: New Zealand and the UK were secretly cooperating on global 272 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: leaves dropping, where they kind of carved up the world 273 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: and everybody can they can kind of listen in and 274 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 2: share information that they're able to do anyone, hover up 275 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: to anyone they want. And the EU at the time, 276 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: because the UK then as part of the EU, was 277 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: concerned that this was maybe violating data protection laws within 278 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: the EU, and so they started investigating this. And this 279 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: was a big front page story in the UK and 280 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: in Europe, and it wasn't covered at all in the 281 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: New York Times. Like this is the early days of 282 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: the Internet, and so I would sort of read the 283 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: New York Times and I couldn't see any coverage of it, 284 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 2: and that dissonance seemed interesting to me, and so I 285 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: ended up writing a master's thesis at the Lund School 286 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: of Economics about eavesdropping and the NSA and echelon and 287 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 2: this investigation and all that kind of stuff, which at 288 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 2: the time was a really obscure subject to know anything about. 289 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: I come back to go to law school in the 290 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 2: fall of two thousand and one. I'm in a civil 291 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: procedure class, the beginning of my second week of law school, 292 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 2: and the student rushes into the room and says a 293 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: plan just to the World Trade Center. And it was 294 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: this confluence of a few things. I had been failing 295 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: to make any inroads as a magazine writer, and I 296 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: had this not much knowledge. I wrote a master's thesis, right, 297 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: I wrote like a fifty page paper, but it was 298 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 2: like a fork full of knowledge about something that it 299 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 2: seemed really obscure at the time, and then suddenly, post 300 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: nine to eleven, it's highly relevant. There's all these questions about, 301 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: you know, where these conversations intercepted between Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. 302 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: When did we intercept them, When did we translate them? 303 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 2: What do we know? Can we hear Bin Lauden? Does 304 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: he use a phone? All these kinds of. 305 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 3: Things determined to strike within you. 306 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: I go, yeah, exactly. It's crazy to think about this 307 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 2: in retrospect, but I thought, well, maybe if I can't 308 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: sell a magazine article, I could sell a book. 309 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: Interesting. 310 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: This is one of these the kind of other version 311 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: of your life flashes before your eyes in which I'm 312 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: not sitting across from you today because I'm an unhappy 313 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: lawyer somewhere. But I thought, well, you need an agent. 314 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: How do you find an agent? And I just looked 315 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: through the stack of books that I had recently read, 316 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: and I started checking the acknowledgments to see who these 317 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: people thinked. And in this stack of maybe ten books, 318 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: one of them was Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlasser, 319 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: and one of them this is a very two thousand 320 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: and one story, and the other was The Tipping Point 321 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: by Malcolm Clodwell, which at the time had just come 322 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: out recently, and they both thank the same woman, and 323 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 2: her name was Tina Bennett. And I looked Tina up 324 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: and I sent an email to her, just a few 325 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: paragraphs saying I'm a student at law school, I think 326 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: there might be a book and this stuff that I did. 327 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: And three hours later she called me. And what's funny 328 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: about the story is there was no second agent on 329 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: the list. Like if I didn't, I wasn't being actually 330 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: all that systematic about it. It was incredibly lucky that 331 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: she called back, because I don't know that I would 332 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: have had the kind of fortitude to do what a 333 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: lot of people do, which is muscle through and put 334 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: in the kind of months of research and deal with 335 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: the rejection. And then the eighth agent on the list 336 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: is the one who turns out to. 337 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: Be your agent. That's your first book. I'm wondering. 338 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: Do you finish the book and it's still the New 339 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: Yorker is calling your name? 340 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, And then what happens? 341 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: I think the existence of the book. I mean, it's 342 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: funny again, I look back at that book, and I 343 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: would it's a book that I would I would probably 344 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: write much differently if I wrote it today, if I 345 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: wrote it at all. But a book has a kind 346 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 2: of value as an artifact. Sometimes it's a it's a 347 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: calling card. And it may be that the existence of 348 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: that book just made them look at me a little 349 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: bit more closely. But I had this kind of funny 350 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: experience where I ended up going back to finish law 351 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: school after taking a year off. I was commuting from Mele, 352 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 2: I was living in the village and commuting to New Haven. 353 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: I mean, my heart was really not in it, and 354 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time on Metro North and I finished. 355 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: I figured, Okay, well, you might as well take the 356 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: bar now. At the time when you study for the 357 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: bar exam, you would go to these in person courses. 358 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: So I was going to NYU and I would walk 359 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: from my apartment on Leroy Street to this NYU classroom 360 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: and to the review of the bar stuff, which is 361 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: just the most mind numbingly tedious material you can imagine. 362 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: And I would sit in the back row and read 363 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: the daily news and drink coffee. And there was a 364 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: trial happening that summer, not far away from where I was, 365 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: of a woman from Chinatown who was a human smuggler 366 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: and her name was Sister Ping. And so rather than 367 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: pay attention to all this legal stuff that I should 368 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: have been following Yale Legal, I was very absorbed in 369 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 2: this story of this human smuggler in Chinatown and ended 370 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: up pitching that as a story to the New Yorker, 371 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: and that was the one. 372 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 3: I mean. 373 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 2: There was really kind of a ticking clock because I 374 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 2: was actually supposed to go and work at a law 375 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: firm that fall, and I kept delaying my start date, 376 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: waiting to hear from the New Yorker, and then finally, 377 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 2: finally they came through and gave me the assignment. 378 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: When you're on the phone with the guy recruiting you 379 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: for the firm, saying I'm sorry, I can't come. 380 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm hip deep in this sex trafficking. 381 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: It was actually so I blushed or recall, but it 382 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,239 Speaker 2: was a thing where I didn't have any money, and 383 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 2: these law firms at the time, they're desperate to get 384 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 2: these young associates in. I had heard a rumor that 385 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: they would give you a no interest loan to kind 386 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 2: of get you through the time before you got there, 387 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 2: and so I ended up actually getting a ten thousand 388 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: dollars loan from them. And it was one of these 389 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 2: awful things where when I finally called and said, you 390 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: know what, after the fifth delay, I'm not coming at all, 391 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 2: I said, and that ten thousand dollars, you know, I'm 392 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 2: gonna can we look at an installment plan? You know, 393 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: I will get it to you. And I did. I 394 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 2: paid it off, but not immediately. 395 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 3: They were polite about it. 396 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: Exactly now, Eve inside the sacred tomb there with Remnick 397 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: and all the New Yorker people, correct that this is 398 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: the beginning of your serious career with the New Yorker. 399 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 2: It is and it's not. I mean I think that 400 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 2: at the point where I called the law firm and said, 401 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: salong suckers. You know, I got an assignment from The 402 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: New Yorker. I had a notion that the rest of 403 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: my life was about to start. And the truth was 404 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: I'd gotten one freelance assignment, and. 405 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 3: They were hopeful. 406 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: I was hopeful. But I also when I finished that piece, 407 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: I thought it came together well, and I sort of 408 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 2: presented myself to the people at the magazine and said 409 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: I'm ready to become a staff writer, and they said, no, 410 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 2: you're not. So it was then another six years of freelancing. 411 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: No. 412 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't get made a staff righter until twenty twelve. 413 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: So you're freelancing and writing many freelance articles for them, 414 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: or for a bunch of people. 415 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: Freelance articles for them. I wrote for Slate. I wrote 416 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: a bunch of screenplays that I mean, I actually I 417 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: really kind of paid the bills by being a working screenwriter. 418 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: Because we were talking about saying nothing, was that your 419 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: first foray and you said. 420 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: No, it was the first time something was britual because 421 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: I was the kind of prototypical, unproduced screenwriter who you. 422 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: Know, I'm not delinear, and you were writing stuff I 423 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: was and being paid to write screen Yes, any of 424 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: it you liked? 425 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had a great I learned so 426 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: much in that process about how to tell a story, 427 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: a lot about kind of brevity and how you condense things, 428 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: And it ended up being very good for my nonfiction 429 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: writing to have kind of been in the trenches and 430 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: worked on all these scripts that didn't get made. The 431 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: process of them not getting made was demoralizing. If I 432 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 2: write an article or I wrote a book. I've had 433 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: two articles killed in my whole career, and it was 434 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: under It was because my editor Don died. So there's 435 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 2: a uncertainty that those things are going to become something 436 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: in the world. If I write a script, and this 437 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 2: is even true today, I mean, is it, you know, 438 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 2: is anything that's in development going to see the light 439 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 2: of day? 440 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: Well, I worked on obviously, writing with friends of mine. 441 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I probably have four or five, at least 442 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: four or five scripts somewhere in a box, somewhere in 443 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: the bin, somewhere on the shelf, which I. 444 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 3: Thought were really really great. 445 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: You know, the pain of the unproduced screenplay is really 446 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: really tough because you walk in the room, they tell 447 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: you thank you, and you never hear from them again. 448 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: Then you go to the movies eighteen months later and 449 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: you go, oh, you passed up my movie to make that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 450 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: you're seeing watching the movie that took your slots. 451 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 2: No, it's amazing, nice, it's funny. I wrote a big 452 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: profile about a year and a half ago of Scott Frank, 453 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 2: who's one of the most successful screen Scott and Ollywood 454 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: and a wonderful guy. Scott is this kind of legendary 455 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 2: script doctor who has done rewrites on sixty movies and 456 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: gets paid a lot of money to come in and 457 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: diagnose very quickly the problems of the script. But we 458 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: had this amazing exchange where he was just talking about 459 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: this ability that he has. He struggles when he's doing 460 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: his own writing to see the flaws and things, but 461 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: it's like an X ray if you look at somebody 462 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: else's script, he can see the infirmities and he knows 463 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 2: how to kind of come in and fix them, which 464 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: is why he gets paid the big bucks to do 465 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: what he does. He said, you know, there's been a 466 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 2: handful of times in my career when I've been handed 467 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 2: a script people have asked me to rewrite it, and 468 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: I've read the script and I've said, there's nothing that 469 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 2: I can add. This is perfect. There's nothing that I 470 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 2: can do. And I said, amazing. What were the movies 471 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: and he said, oh no, no of them got made. 472 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: Author and journalist Patrick rad and Keith. If you enjoy 473 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: conversations about investigative journalism and nonfiction writing, check out my 474 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: episode with David Remnick. 475 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 4: The magazine is not the magazine if it doesn't have 476 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 4: a sense of humor. You're not in business to depress 477 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 4: the hell out of the reader. Unremittingly. It's like a 478 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 4: band having a set list. If you do everything, it's 479 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 4: all sixteenth notes. Ferment got ad veto? Or will you 480 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 4: sound like the Ramones? Although I've heard of worse things. 481 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 4: So you want some variation in tone, in voice. 482 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: And that's your responsibility, you feel, I feel all of 483 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: it's my responsibility. To hear more of my conversation with 484 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: David Remnick, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After 485 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: the break, Patrick raden Keith shares an unexpected job offer 486 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: from the world's most notorious drug kingpin. I'm Alec Baldwin 487 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: and this is Here's the Thing. Patrick raden Keith first 488 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: began contributing to the New Yorker as a freelance writer 489 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six. In twenty twelve, he joined 490 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: the coveted ranks of the magazine's full time writing staff. 491 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: For Radenkeith, landing a full time position at The New 492 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: Yorker was a dream come true. 493 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's the greatest job ever I 494 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 2: would imagine. I love it. You know, you're not going 495 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: to get rich doing it. And there are all kinds 496 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: of ways in which the industry and the status of 497 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 2: this kind of writing and the written word itself and 498 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 2: the notion of objective truth are all imperiled at the moment. 499 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: But to me, it is the sport of kings. It 500 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 2: is just the best job imaginable. 501 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: I mean, the people I've read there, and the spell 502 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: that it's cast on me to read you, to read 503 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: Rebecca Mead, to me, Larry Wright, all these people I've 504 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: read forever in that magazine. 505 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: It's crazy, yeah, and it's not. 506 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: And I mean, I think for me it's also there 507 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: is a kind of thrill that I get. I think 508 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 2: this stuff works for a large audience. There is a 509 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 2: conviction that I have, which is that if you tell 510 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 2: a good story, people will come to it, and they'll 511 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: spend an hour reading an article. It's your job to 512 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: make it beautiful and absorbing, kind of pull them in. 513 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: I'm very attentive to that. 514 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the New Yorker serves so many purposes for 515 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 1: me just to read and enjoy some of this great writing. 516 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: Why do I like, so many people go right to 517 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: the crime story first. Now, a lot of stuff you've 518 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: written is crime related. O chopo, yeah, Sackler. Why do 519 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: most many readers, and I'm talking about sophisticated readers. This 520 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: is not Netflix's crime documentary section, but even the most 521 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: even the more elite sophisticated crowd, picks up The New 522 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: Yorker and they want to read about crime. 523 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 2: You know, I think that for me, part of what 524 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: interests me about these stories is that they are at 525 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 2: heart stories about people who transgress. I mean, there's a 526 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: theory with true crime that there's a sense in which 527 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 2: you know, when you're at home and you're watching that 528 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: Netflix documentary, it actually makes you feel safer in a 529 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 2: way that you're kind of cozy there in your home 530 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: that you're watching these sort of other people that's all 531 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 2: that's happening over the horizon. To other people, and my 532 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: attraction to that genre is the exact opposite that I'm 533 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 2: not interested in stories about psychopaths, stories about people who 534 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 2: are totally unrecognizable. The interesting stories to me are the 535 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 2: stories about the humanity of these people who do terrible 536 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 2: things and asking these questions of how do you get 537 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: off that conventional path that the rest of us are on, 538 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 2: how do you start to deviate and how do you 539 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: turn into a Chappo Gusman. It's funny. I think a 540 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: lot about kind of narrative time and how long you 541 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: have to tell a story. And I always thought that 542 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 2: if The Sopranos had been a movie, it would never 543 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 2: have worked. Because you're four or five episodes into The 544 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 2: Sopranos when you have that amazing episode where Tony goes 545 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 2: up on the college tour and he strangles the guy, 546 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 2: so the first time you've seen him really commit an 547 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: awful act of violence, and you've had four or five 548 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,239 Speaker 2: hours to fall for the guy and to get to 549 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: know him in the context of his family and his 550 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 2: meetings with this therapist, and at the point where he 551 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: he does this appalling thing, you kind of feel your 552 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: stomach drop. You don't want them to do it. But 553 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 2: also you're in there with. 554 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: Like the writers saying, let's be clear about one thing. Now, yeah, 555 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: you know, five episodes, let's remember what he does. 556 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: Who this guy is. But they've given you lots of 557 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: time in which to see him and I think to 558 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: kind of see yourself in him in some way. And that, 559 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: to me is the thing that's most intriguing about these 560 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: kinds of stories is it's funny because I occasionally there 561 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: are people who will criticize my work and say, you're 562 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: humanizing these monsters, but of course you know, to me 563 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: they are human beings right like it is inescapably what 564 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: they are. 565 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,239 Speaker 1: Well to me, it's what I call the there but 566 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: for the grace of God. Obviously that comment go, I thought, 567 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: which is I'm watching these things that I'm going, what 568 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: do I have in comment with that person? 569 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 3: What have they gone through? What said? I mean? 570 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: For someone to just explode into some domer esque parade 571 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: of insanity. 572 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: That's different. 573 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 2: You know, the psychopaths I almost never write about because 574 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 2: I sort of have no interest in them. The people 575 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 2: who are just total ciphers. 576 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: What's Guzman a businessman, a cycle businessman, or what is 577 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: it in your words. 578 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's pretty much that. It's funny. I mean I 579 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 2: first wrote about him in twenty twelve, so this is 580 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 2: before I was on staff at The New Yorker. I 581 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: wrote a freelance piece for the New York Times magazine 582 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: and my pitch to the New York Times magazine. Part 583 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: of what's funny about this is that when I pitched 584 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 2: that story in twenty eleven to the New York Times, 585 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: they said, Choppo who they had? He was not a 586 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: household name. And I said, here's this guy who runs this. 587 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: You know, he's an awful, murderous criminal, but he also 588 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 2: runs this multi billion dollar commodity's business glomerate. Yeah, And 589 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: I said, I want to do a kind of a 590 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: Harvard Business School case study of a Mexican drug cartel. 591 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 2: I want to look at it as a business, which 592 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 2: is not too gloss over the awful things that he does, 593 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: but when you look at the role that violence plays 594 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 2: in the organization, it's actually strangely often quite rational. 595 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: How do they see themselves? I mean, in my mind 596 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: have always look at characters and go, what do you 597 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: think is coming over coming? 598 00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 3: Well? 599 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 2: They do, Yeah, I mean, they're it's funny there's that 600 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: old screenwriting adage that when you're writing the villain in 601 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 2: the movie, he shouldn't think that he's the villain in 602 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 2: the movie. He thinks he's the hero of the movie, 603 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 2: and he's watching a different movie than you're watching Booth exactly, 604 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 2: And so I think that there is I mean, another 605 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 2: things I'm very interested in is just self deception, delusion, 606 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 2: the stories that people tell themselves about the choices that 607 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 2: they make. So for Chappa Guzman, absolutely is there a 608 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 2: version of the story in which Chappo Guzman thinks that 609 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: he's had to make some tough choices in his life, 610 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 2: but ultimately he's more or less a good guy who 611 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: had to look at for his family and grew up 612 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 2: with little in a part of the world where you know, 613 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: you happen to live next to this country that is 614 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: like the most drug addicted country in the world. There's 615 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: a version of that story that he can. 616 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 3: Tell so well. 617 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: Chapo's lawyer called you, oh yeah, to describe that. How 618 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: does that call get affected? 619 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 3: Yeah? 620 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,959 Speaker 2: So it's funny. I do a lot of these what 621 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: we call write arounds, which is where I'm writing about 622 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 2: somebody who I don't have access to they won't give 623 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: me an interview, but I go ahead and write anyway. 624 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: And this Chopokusman piece, it was actually the second piece 625 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: that I did about him for The New Yorker, was 626 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: after he was captured, before he escaped, before he was 627 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: captured again, so he'd he wanted to get caught, let's 628 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 2: stay here, you go, he wanted the super Max. Well, 629 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 2: it's funny because when you actually look at the details 630 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: of his life, it's pretty funny. During the years prior 631 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: to that capture in Mexico, he had been you know, 632 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 2: he had all these different safe houses and he's shuttling around, 633 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 2: never sleeping in the same room twice. And there was 634 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 2: this kind of intricate tunnel network underneath the safe houses 635 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: so he could escape. But then when you talk to 636 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: the Mexican and US people who had been investigating him 637 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: and listening in on the wiretaps, he realized that the 638 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: biggest challenge for him was that he had all these 639 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: different women in his life. His wife, he had his 640 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 2: ex wives with baby, he was still cordial babies. He 641 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: had mistresses or prostitutes. They were constantly having to get 642 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: him his viagra wherever he was hiding out which was 643 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 2: like a big logistical thing when it's a guy who's 644 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: you know, being counted by the DEA. And yeah, I 645 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 2: interviewed one of these DEA guys us to listen under 646 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: the wiretaps, and he said it was like Peyton Place. 647 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: It was a whole deal, you know. I mean, so yeah, 648 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: maybe he said, you know, just take me to the 649 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: supermax please. So I wrote this piece. I didn't talk 650 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: to him. He was locked up. I couldn't talk to him, 651 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 2: was locked up in Mexico. Peace came out. I had 652 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 2: not anticipated that he would read it. You know, he 653 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: doesn't seem like a big reader, doesn't seem like a 654 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,239 Speaker 2: New York or some time. Yeah, he had forty time. 655 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: And I got a call from a lawyer who said 656 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: that he represented the Guzman family after the peace came out, 657 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: and I didn't know what it was about. I had 658 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 2: this kind of funny thing where I called one of 659 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: my sources who was a federal prosecutor who'd worked on 660 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: these cases for years, and I said, I'm going to 661 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: run a name by you. This guy says he's a 662 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: cartel lawyer. Is he the real deal? What's the story? Like, 663 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: I said, I'll run the name. I'll come back to you. 664 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: He called me back an hour later and he said, okay, 665 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 2: so yeah, he's a real cartel lawyer. And he said, 666 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: and he's one of these cartel lawyers who's like sixty 667 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 2: percent cartel forty percent lawyer. So I was getting nervous 668 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: and I eventually called him back and he said, I 669 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 2: didn't know what it was going to be about. And 670 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 2: he ended up asking me if I would like to 671 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: ghost write I'll Chopo's memoir. 672 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 3: This is like analyze this, but it's profile. 673 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: No I know, and it. 674 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: Comes through and they're like you you you exactly well, 675 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: no good, he said, uh yeah. 676 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 2: He said it was funny because the way the way 677 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: he set it up, I was so nervous and I 678 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 2: didn't know what we were going to talk about. And 679 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: he has a very this guy's a very like starchy, 680 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: kind of self important way of talking. And he said, eh, 681 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: Signor is ready to write his memoir. And I said 682 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: that's a book i'd like to read. And he said, 683 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: but sir, is it the book you would like to write? 684 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 2: And I said no. I said no on the call, 685 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: and I said no when he called me again a 686 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 2: week later and said, as you continued to consider our offer. 687 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, but nothing came of that. Nothing came of it. 688 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 2: What was funny is that I didn't tell anybody about 689 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: this at the time, and then after the noted investigative 690 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: journalist John Penn went down with Rolling Stone and had 691 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: that kind of to me pretty silly interview with Kuzman. 692 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 2: At that point I felt like, okay to cats out 693 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: of the bag, and so I published something in The 694 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: New Yorker saying I'd had this experience, I had passed 695 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 2: on the opportunity to do that kind of exercise. And 696 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: what was funny is after I follished this in the 697 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 2: New Yorker, I got a note from a journalist in 698 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 2: Spain with El Pais, and he said he asked me too. 699 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 2: You know, he was like clearly shopping it around. I 700 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 2: was a little hurt, because, you know, I sort of 701 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: wondered where was I in the pecking order? 702 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: You know, your waiter in a Korean barbecue was like 703 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: I got a call from him. 704 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 2: What I tried to express to the lawyer. I don't 705 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: know if he necessarily appreciated the comedy of this, but 706 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 2: I was saying to him as delicately as I could. 707 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 2: You know, often when you have somebody who has a 708 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: memoir and a ghostwriter, that relations between the ghostwriter and 709 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 2: the subject can kind of break down over time. And 710 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 2: this was not a situation that I wanted to get 711 00:32:54,080 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: into with choppol Guzman, author and journalist Patrick rad and Keef. 712 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be 713 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 2: sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, 714 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: Spotify or. 715 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,959 Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Patrick 716 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: rad and Keef tells us about the origins of his 717 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: investigative podcast wind of Change and how the CIA was 718 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: rumored to have written a song for the German metal 719 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: band Scorpions. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the thing. 720 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: You may have heard the nineteen ninety power ballad wind 721 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: of Change by the heavy metal band Scorpions. What you 722 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: may not have heard is the rumor that the song 723 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: was actually written by the United States CIA. When Patrick 724 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: rad and Keif heard about this alleged clandestine operation, he 725 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: knew he needed to tell the story, but decided against 726 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: his typical format. 727 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: So I have a source. You know, ideas come to 728 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: me from different places, and I have a guy who 729 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: is one of my dearest friends, my friend Michael, who 730 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 2: is just an amazing font of ideas. He's a kind 731 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 2: of one of these like Suey generous New Yorkers who's 732 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 2: just ideas spin off this guy at a greater rate 733 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 2: than they do anybody else I know, And as often 734 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 2: as not he will call me and tell me these ideas, 735 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 2: and a number of my pieces have started as things 736 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: he told me. And years ago he got in touch 737 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 2: with me and said, you know that song wind of 738 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 2: Change by the metal band the Scorpions, that was like 739 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 2: the anthem to the end of the Cold War, and 740 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 2: you know, young Russian teenagers were singing it in the 741 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 2: streets as the Soviet Union collapses. I heard that song 742 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 2: was secretly written by the CIA, and initially I tried 743 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: to do it as a piece. I spent years trying 744 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 2: to make it work as a piece. But the challenging 745 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 2: thing about a secret operator is that you're never going 746 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: to get to a definitive account that says this happened, 747 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 2: and you're also never definitively going to be able to 748 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 2: say this didn't happen. And I couldn't figure out what 749 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 2: to do with it, and I just kind of put 750 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 2: it on the shelf. And then one night I woke 751 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 2: up and thought, this is a podcast, and. 752 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 3: You've never done a podcast, but I've never done one before. 753 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 2: I'd listened to a lot of podcasts, and it was 754 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 2: one of those things where I sort of woke up 755 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 2: the mod of the night, I could see the whole thing. 756 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 2: I knew how it would sound, I knew what I 757 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: wanted to do. I think in part because they started 758 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 2: really with cereal where you don't get a definitive answer, 759 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 2: but also true crime, where you don't end you don't 760 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 2: actually solve the mystery necessarily, and in part because you 761 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 2: can listen to a podcast while you wash the dishes. Yeah, 762 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 2: you're giving a little less of your brain to the whole. Yeah. 763 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 2: I think that means that ambiguity is a little safer 764 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: in a podcast that you can kind of people are 765 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 2: the listener is a little bit more indulgent. And so 766 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: we spent a year, almost a year and a half 767 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: doing it. My pitch to when we this was a 768 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 2: good time to be making a podcast, when people are 769 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 2: spending real money doing it, and I said, this has 770 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 2: to feel like a Bond movie we're traveling around the world. 771 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: I want to be in Russia one episode, in Germany, 772 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: the next episode, I want to be all over the place. 773 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 2: It was so fun. I loved it. 774 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: So in terms of Sackler when I kept peeking back 775 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: at the Sackler thing, your Sackler thing, because that article 776 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: was just like some hit with a baseball bat. 777 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 3: That's a great writing you did. It was great. 778 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: And the book I read about CVS got in a 779 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: lot of trouble down in Florida, pill milling and all 780 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: this other stuff. Have you kept a little bit of 781 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: a tab on what the developments of that story have 782 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: been over the last few years since. 783 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 3: The book or not a little bit. I mean I 784 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 3: CVS got into a lot of trouble. 785 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 2: They did. The pharmacies got in trouble. The distributors got 786 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 2: in trouble. Other pharmaceutical companies got in trouble. You know it. 787 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 2: Nobody knows how many people have died in the opioid 788 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 2: crisis and the kind of an addiction crisis since the 789 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 2: mid nineties, but the numbers at this point are creeping 790 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: up on three quarters of a million Americans. And you 791 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 2: don't get there without a lot of bad actors, you know, 792 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: like it takes a village to get to a team 793 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 2: kind of number. Yeah, and I have followed it in 794 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 2: a kind of arms length way. To go back to 795 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,959 Speaker 2: earlier when you asked, was the job everything? I hoped 796 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 2: it would be. Part of what I love about the 797 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 2: job is that I'm sure it must be similar. I 798 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: would think for an actor that I'm somebody whose metabolism 799 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 2: is such that I love parachuting into a new situation 800 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: in which I know virtually nothing, immersing myself in it, 801 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,479 Speaker 2: getting to know all these new people, getting as smart 802 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: as I can, doing the best possible version of what 803 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 2: I do, which is to kind of take all that 804 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 2: in and figure out how to tell it as a story. 805 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 2: And then I'm gone. I move on. I move on 806 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 2: to the next thing. There are all kinds of people who, 807 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 2: for one reason or another, have a beat, and they 808 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 2: keep writing about the same thing. And the opioid crisis 809 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 2: is a massively important subject. And I hope that people 810 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 2: continue to do great articles and books, and I know 811 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: they will, but I'm done. I did it. I wrote 812 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 2: my book. 813 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 3: A lot of people say that. 814 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: A lot of people said say something along the lines of, 815 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: like your book is my chapter, you know what I mean. 816 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: I spent a chapter of my life immersing myself. 817 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 3: But that I'm done. I've done irrecular and everything that's common. 818 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: And my curiosity, the curiosity that led me to your story, 819 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: leads me to another story. 820 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 3: Yeah. 821 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 2: But listen, different people function in different ways, right, So 822 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 2: I think that there are all kinds of instances in 823 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: which there are people who just stay on the beat 824 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 2: or they have have they basically have one subject or 825 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 2: a few subjects over the course of their life. And 826 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 2: there's all kinds of rewards that you can get from 827 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 2: people who go that deep. That's just not who I am. 828 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: When I watched your show, I thought I was going 829 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: to cry a lot, which is not me. I mean, 830 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: I'm remember you to cry. I'm ready to be moved. 831 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: But I thought, oh, this is one of those things. 832 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: It's so fucking dark and so and not even in 833 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: terms of death and blood all that's certainly there, just 834 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: in terms of the circumstances for these people and their choices, 835 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: and they just don't seem willing to face that there 836 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: are or other choices. They think they have no choice. Now, 837 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: was it exhausting for you emotionally? To write this or 838 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: what does it affect you that way? The darkness? 839 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've been living with this story for 840 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 2: a long time. My first trip to Northern Ireland happened 841 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen. And it is a kind of oddity, 842 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 2: I guess, a sort of personal quirk that I often 843 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 2: write about really dark stuff. But I'm a pretty upbeat 844 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 2: you know, as my father would relentlessly. There was a 845 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 2: song that my grandfather loved, which I think is probably 846 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 2: from the thirties, and that my grandfather would quote and 847 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 2: my father would quote to us when we were kids, 848 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 2: which and there was a line in the song which 849 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 2: is life can be delish with a sunny disposition, and 850 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,959 Speaker 2: that's you. I have a sunny disposition in the face 851 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 2: of data your laptop. Yeah, exactly. But it's a helpful 852 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 2: thing because there are Listen, I'm not a war correspondent. 853 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 2: I don't mean to. I'm not looking to kind of 854 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 2: valorize the work that I do. There are all kinds 855 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 2: of people who have more bravery and exposed to more 856 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 2: carnage than I am. I've had moments in my career 857 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 2: and I covered the Boston Marathon bombing trial. There are 858 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 2: moments where you where it does take a toll where 859 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 2: you know you. 860 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 3: The work that you're defy. 861 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: These pieces paralyze me. Oh god when they find them 862 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 1: in the boat, Oh my god. 863 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 2: Thank you. But you know that's stuck and give you nightmares. 864 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 2: So it's not that I'm totally immune to that. But no, listen, 865 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 2: I think say nothing. It is a dark story, but 866 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 2: you go to Belfast and you are cracking up the 867 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 2: whole time. You're talking to people often about the darkest, 868 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 2: most awful things, and they are and they are hilarious 869 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 2: because there is this kind of their laughter is a 870 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 2: kind of defiance. And one thing that I'm so pleased 871 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 2: about with the series is that I said when we started, 872 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 2: I want to the book is I've sometimes hear from 873 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 2: people that the book is they're kind of surprised to 874 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 2: chuckle at times in the book, and that's just me 875 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 2: trying to distill that Belfast sense of humor. And I said, 876 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 2: we have to get that into the show, and I 877 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 2: think we do so. As much as I can completely 878 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 2: agree with your assessment that it's very dark, it's really 879 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 2: it starts dark and gets darker. It's also got humor 880 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 2: laced all the way through it, and that humor feels 881 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 2: to me to be both kind of very intrinsic to 882 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 2: who the people in Belfast are and how they got 883 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 2: through the troubles, and also maybe a saving grace for 884 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 2: the rest of us. 885 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 3: Now, two last things. No fiction for you? 886 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 2: Why, well, you've like found the little wound and stuck 887 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,760 Speaker 2: your finger in it. I'm feeling the pain. I wanted 888 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 2: to write fiction in college, and I did. I did 889 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 2: writing workshops. There were aspects of it I think I 890 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 2: was good at, and then aspects that I was not. 891 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 2: And what I find and I actually find this it's 892 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 2: a reason that I don't do more screenwriting even now. 893 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 2: I mean I still do some, but not as much 894 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 2: as I used to. Is that the kind of paralysis 895 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 2: of infinite choice where you you know, you create a character, 896 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 2: you put the character. 897 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 3: In the world. 898 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 2: Here he goes, here, he goes, there are aliens land 899 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 2: in the backyard. I mean, you could do anything you 900 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 2: want right, and that I find difficult. You know, you 901 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 2: hear writers talk about the terror of the blank page. 902 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 2: With the work that I do, the page is never 903 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 2: blank because most of what I do starts with I 904 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 2: just go out there and I'm making phone calls and 905 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 2: I'm reading documents and I'm I'm kind of assembling the pieces. 906 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 2: And then there's this thrilling process which is how do 907 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 2: you arrange these into a compelling story. But by the 908 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 2: time I sit down to write, I have all those 909 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 2: materials in front of it. It's like it's like a 910 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 2: you know when chefs talk about their mes on plus right, 911 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 2: It's like you sit down to make the meal and 912 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 2: everything is actually within reach. It's all there, it's all assembled, 913 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 2: and you know, these are my ingredients and all I 914 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 2: have to do is figure out how to combine them. 915 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,439 Speaker 2: What I struggled with with fiction anything and happen. 916 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,359 Speaker 3: Well, it's like I watched locker Bee with Colin Firth. 917 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 3: I love worship Colin Firth. 918 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: And of course, when when I think about the work 919 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: you do the nonfiction workers, like you walk into a 920 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,800 Speaker 1: room to a hangar and there's all the pieces of 921 00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: the plane that was blown up, and you're going to 922 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: sift through every single dial and knob and purse and 923 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: shoe and then and then fiction. As you walk into 924 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: the hangar, there's nothing in there at all for you 925 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: to look at or consider or regard it's all from here. 926 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: Number one, I really wouldn't worry about the fiction thing 927 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:14,760 Speaker 1: if I were you. I think it's going quite well 928 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: as it is. I think you should be very happy 929 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: with the way it's going in my estination. And number two, 930 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: are you going to do any more of this kind 931 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: of stuff? My god, you gotta do more television or movies? 932 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 2: I am yeah. I have my book, The Snakehead, actually 933 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 2: the thing that started in that in that NYU class. 934 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 2: The Snakehead is underway with a twenty four as a series, 935 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 2: which I'm going to co create with a really wonderful writer, Anamunch, 936 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 2: who's gonna write the scripts. And so that's in the works, 937 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 2: and I've got a couple of other things in various stages. 938 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: My thanks to author and journalist Patrick rad mkeef. This 939 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,360 Speaker 1: episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. 940 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: We're pretty used by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria 941 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: de Martin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial, and our social 942 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the 943 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:20,800 Speaker 1: thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.