1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier, 6 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: and more trustworthy mainstream by becoming a Breaking Points Premium 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: member today at Breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and 9 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage 10 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most 11 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for? 12 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. All right, everybody, 13 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: it is a bit of a banner day here at 14 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: Breaking Points because we have live in studio a member 15 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: of Congress, Congressman Rocano, welcome back to the show card 16 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: to see you, sir, well monitor to be back on. 17 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: I need to see how this happens. That's a pretty 18 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: cool tech. Yeah, being on set here, a lot of 19 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: go er don't give away too many of the secrets, 20 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: the trade secrets, that's right. Yeah, So you had an 21 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: op ed that caught both of our attentions to go 22 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: and put this up on the screen. This was in 23 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: the New York Times, Carson Khana taking aim at Joe 24 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: Biden's inflation policies. The headline here is there is way 25 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: more Biden can do to lower prices. And you don't 26 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: just criticize. You have some specific ideas here that the 27 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: government could enact, and that the government is basically the 28 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: only actor who could take charge and have some impact 29 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: both on gas prices and food prices. Just lay on 30 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: the case that you're making here, Carsman, Well, first of all, 31 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: at a high level, we need an all out mobilization, 32 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: not just ad hoc initiatives that are reactive to headlines. 33 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,279 Speaker 1: Here's what I say on gas prices. The government could 34 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: actually buy up oil at a reasonably cheap price and 35 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: then sell it back. Now oil's at let's say, one 36 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen bucks. People say, well, what if it 37 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: goes down to one hundred and five. I don't think 38 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: it's going to go down, but fine, the government takes 39 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: a loss over the next three months, it's much less 40 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: of a loss than what we're giving Ukraine. On the 41 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: flip side, you could actually prevent gas from going to 42 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: six bucks. So now I'm not saying do this all 43 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: the time, but in an emergency, do this. You can 44 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: do the same thing with fuel prices. Those are food prices. 45 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: Those are two concrete suggestions, right, And this is this 46 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: is in price fixing. This is actually straight up within 47 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: the executive authority. I mean, look, Congressman, here's the question. 48 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: We talked about this for months here. We've talked about 49 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: that SBR, We've talked about the meat packing industry, agriculture, 50 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: the executive action we see today talking about solar tariffs, 51 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: and yet we don't see that executive action whenever it 52 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: comes to the basic bread and butter. So you have 53 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: more visibility far than us. Why is the administration not 54 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: doing any of these things? Ager? I think that there's 55 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: this concern that you're intervening with the market and what 56 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 1: precedent are you setting. But the reality is people don't 57 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: want solutions that are a year out or two years out. 58 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: They want to know, how are you going to lower 59 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: the price of gas? How are you going to lower 60 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: the price of food? And we have a mechanism actually 61 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: for doing that. In cases of emergency where a huge purchaser, 62 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: we can purchase this stuff and sell it back at 63 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: a cheap price. I mean, commodity traders do it, but 64 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: they do it at a profit. They do it the 65 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: other way, and so the government can do it. So 66 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: at least acknowledge the government could do it. Now, you 67 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 1: could say we aren't going to do it. But here's 68 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: what you can't say, Well, I'll leave it to the FED. 69 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: You know, the government. The president's the most powerful person 70 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: in the world. They want to see the president and 71 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 1: the administration act. Anyone can get elected and say, okay, 72 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: I want the independence of the Fed. Okay, fine, it's 73 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: different than Trump. But you don't get elected to say 74 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to respect the independence of agencies. You get 75 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,839 Speaker 1: elected to solve problems. Right, No, I think that's well said. 76 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not every day that a critique from 77 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: a member of Congress from the left is published in 78 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: the pages of the New York Times. What did the 79 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: White House have to say about this? Did they reach 80 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: out to you? Have you seen any receptivity to the ideas? 81 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: They did? They were polite. I got to talk to 82 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: everyone and they said, oh, innovative ideas, But I don't 83 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: care whether I don't need a compliment. I back, you know, 84 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: I want them to act and at the very least 85 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: direct your agencies. Look to direct the Commodity Future Trading 86 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: Commission to do an analysis. They could do it in 87 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: one week and what the impact would be of having 88 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: the government intervene by having purchases in food or fuel markets. 89 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: And then, you know, the surprising thing is in the Congress, 90 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: I've had frontliners moderates actually come up to me and say, 91 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, you're right, We've got to do something. I 92 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: don't agree with all the ideas fifty percent I agree with, 93 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: but you're absolutely right that we have to acknowledge the 94 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: pain and we have to do something bolder. So you 95 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: have this odd alliance that the progressives agree with me 96 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: going on there. Yeah, well, frontliners, that's fine as long 97 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: as something gets done. I mean, I think my question 98 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: is you probably see this your district. What's gas in 99 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: your district post six fifty something like that where you're from. 100 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: That's nuts. I mean here in DC, the national average 101 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: we're all closing on five dollars a gallan. I don't 102 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: understand why there aren't more Democratic members of Congress who 103 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: are willing to come out and say there is something 104 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: that needs to be done. Is there a reluctance amongst 105 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: your colleagues in order to criticize the administration on this front? 106 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: Because we just very rare, That's why you're here. Read 107 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: very rarely see descent and even willingness to engage in 108 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: descent in good faith. Sure, I mean there's always a 109 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: reluctance to criticize the president of your own party. You 110 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: want to be in good standing with the president of 111 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: your own party. But here I think that my criticism 112 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: was one with ideas. I wasn't just saying, Okay, you're 113 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: not doing enough. I was saying, here are things you 114 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: could do. And I fundamentally think it will be a 115 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: disaster in November if we aren't seen every day between 116 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: now in November saying we're going to do these things 117 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: to lower prices. Now, look, I've been the biggest proponent 118 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: on renewable energy and renewable energy spending. That's not going 119 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: to do stuff in August or September at the pump 120 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: speak a little bit more to that. In terms of 121 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: the political landscape, there are some competing analyses I would 122 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: say about why President Biden's approval rating has fallen so 123 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: far the group that age demographic with which he's seen 124 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: the greatest decline in terms of his approval rating as 125 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: young people. I mean, at the beginning of the administration, 126 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: young people were the most enthusiastic about Biden. Now he 127 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: has his lowest ratings with young people. What do you 128 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: think has happened? What are the failures that have led 129 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: to this place? What are the American people feeling that 130 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: has led them to conclude like this is not getting 131 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: it done for us. Well, one, I'll give him some 132 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt, and that he's genuinely had a 133 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: tough hand. I mean, when you have a pandemic, when 134 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: you have inflation, that's tough for any president, and so 135 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: to have high approval numbers would be hard. But here's 136 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: where I would say he could do more. He could 137 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: be more bold, he could be more energetic, he could 138 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: be more imaginative, he could be more out of the box, 139 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: and he could look like he's fighting every day and 140 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: decisive on some issues. I mean, there's no reason we 141 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: shouldn't have forgiven the student debt, there's no reason that 142 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: we couldn't have been out there and have gotten some 143 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: deal on climate by now there's no reason why every 144 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: day he shouldn't be pushing and fighting on reducing prices. 145 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: So I just think there needs to be more energy decisiveness, 146 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: creativity out of the administration. I'm not saying that's going 147 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: to get you up to fifty percent, but I think 148 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: that's what people want to say. One other thing, I 149 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: had a question I had for you, as someone who 150 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: does care a lot about the climate crisis, as I 151 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: do as well, what do you think that the landscape 152 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: looks like now in terms of climate action? Because you have, 153 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: first of all, gas extremely expensive, and you have, of 154 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: course the war in Ukraine and the fact that we've 155 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: cut off access to Russian oil, and so there's this desire. Okay, well, 156 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: let's get Saudi to pump more, Let's maybe do a 157 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: deal with Venezuela. It's totally open to let's try to 158 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: get the Iranians back in the system as well. But 159 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: what does all of that mean in terms of the 160 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: medium to longer term prospects of moving off of fossil fuel. 161 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: I think medium to longer term is right. I think 162 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: what we can say is, here's our climate plan, and 163 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: that's going to lower your gas prices tomorrow. Because people say, 164 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: come on, tell us the truth. So we should have 165 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: a short term plan on gas prices. Then we should 166 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: say look long term for price stability, long term to 167 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: defeat Russia, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, we need to have 168 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: an alternative. If you want the oil to be worth less, 169 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: their country is to have less value, then you need 170 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: to have an alternative. And so a moonshot in renewable 171 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: energy is in our national security. It's there for long 172 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: term price stability. And I think people would get that. 173 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,679 Speaker 1: Where they get upset is when you have someone saying, well, 174 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: they'll get an electric vehicle, and they're like, come on, 175 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: three percent or something of people at electric vehicles and 176 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm paying too much at the pump. So, by the way, 177 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: you can't get them because of the chip ish. I 178 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: was going to say, I'll by the way and buy 179 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: it if you wanted to. Well, it's the chip issue. 180 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: It's the fact that we're not mining enough lithium or cobalt. 181 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: We're not processing that here. We're totally dependent on China 182 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: and Australia in terms of that production. That's, by the way, 183 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: one thing that I think could bring this country together 184 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: in terms of where we have common ground, bring production 185 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: beast to this country, have processing of critical materials in 186 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: this country. I mean yeah, but then how does the 187 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: solar tariff exclusion go through when clearly someone in the 188 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: administration is listening to somebody, right, because you have an 189 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: executive action that goes through an extraordinary action. I mean 190 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: some people called it illegal, basically circumventing a congressional law 191 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: that was passed. How does that go through? And not 192 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: a single one of these things goes through. I mean, 193 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: the baby formula one that you point to is extraordinary. 194 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: It took I mean, the administration admitted they've known about 195 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: this since April, So why did it take until the 196 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: end of May. I just feel a tremendous sense of 197 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: malaise and yet some action on some issues which I 198 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: think are extraordinarily detrimental to production. Can you square us that? 199 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: How does it work in the White House? Because you're 200 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: going to talk to them anymore than especially our audience, 201 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: A lot of people ask that question. Well, we disagree 202 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: on the solar point, and I think they had to 203 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: do that, and they combined it with the defense production. 204 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: But I just want to be sure, but the defense 205 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: production should be fully funded, and even the baby formula, 206 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: they could be doing a lot more. Look, they're flying 207 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: things to planes to transport the baby formula, but if 208 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: you notice, they're not actually buying the baby formula. They 209 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: could actually buy the baby formula. They could tell the 210 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: FDA if it's safe enough for European babies, it's safe 211 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: enough for American babies. They haven't done that. So I 212 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: think that this is my critique of the administration. I'll 213 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: probably get calls after this, and that is that they're 214 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: too caught. There's too much caution. They're not willing to 215 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: think fully out of the box enough in a crisis. Look, 216 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: Herbert Hoover had a lot of the ideas that FDR 217 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: actually took. FDR just came and said, we're going to 218 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: do it ten times bigger, and we're going to try 219 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: stuff and I don't care if it fails, We'll try 220 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: something else. And I think in a crisis, you need 221 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: that approach, and that's that's what I've been pushing them for. Yeah, 222 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't matter, but I'm curious, do you think 223 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: that that cautiousness comes from an ideological predisposition. I mean, Biden, 224 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: throughout his very long career in Washington has always tried 225 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: to locate himself in the center of whatever the Democratic 226 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: Party spectrum is. Or do you think it comes from 227 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: a fear of, oh, if we do too much with 228 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: the government, that's going to give the Republicans a talking point, 229 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: so like sort of a political fear calculus versus an 230 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: actual ideological reluctance to use the powers of the federal government. 231 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: I think it comes from an ideological bias of neoliberalism. 232 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: And I throw that brought out, meaning that there's just 233 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: been this view that let markets do their thing and 234 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: don't interfere, and it means don't interfere when it comes 235 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: to production. I disagree. The government ought to be helping 236 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: make sure we have plants and production here in partnership 237 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: with the private sector. And it says, let the prices 238 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: go up and down. The government shrant get in the 239 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: business of buying. I have never met a constituent in 240 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: my district who says I am concerned whether the government's 241 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: going to do too much or too little on prices. 242 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: You know what, they say, bring the prices down, and 243 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: so I agree we shouldn't have price controls, but we 244 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: are so reluctant to have the government play a decisive role, 245 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: and that's I think what makes people cautious. There are 246 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: a lot of economists friends of mine who called me 247 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: up and disagreed with this piece. One person said, who 248 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: liked my books, that this isn't one of your better works. 249 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: So you know, and I'm my guess, is there a 250 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: hundred of those folks who have the president's heir. So 251 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: here's the point, though, the president of the guts to 252 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 1: overrule the generals in Afghanistan. I supported the president. I 253 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: think that was a courageous decision. I am non Monday 254 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: morning quarterback. Could it have been done slightly better? Sure, 255 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: but anyone can say that that was gutsy. Well, does 256 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: he have the guts to overrule the conventional economists? Actually 257 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: that's harder almost than the generals, But that's what we 258 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: need in this country. Someone is going to be decisive 259 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: on government intervention where it comes to helping the working 260 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: in middle class. Yeah, well, it's harder because, as you 261 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: pointed out, he has an ideological predisposition to not do that. 262 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: Whereas on afghanistanis foreign policy is the real mixed bag. 263 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: Over the course of his career, but he had some 264 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: of the right instincts even under the Obama administration. It's 265 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: really helpful to get some insight from you as to 266 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: how these debates are unfolding. Also very interesting that there's 267 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: this sort of weird horseshoe between the centrists who are 268 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: facing re election doom and progressives who were saying, come on, 269 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: let's get this thing together. So really appreciate you taking 270 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: the time to stop by. I thank thank you, thank you, 271 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: appreciate for another show. Thank you Biden and open war 272 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: of words with Elon Musk. After Elon Musk said he's 273 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: going to be cutting some jobs over at TESLA, let's 274 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: take a listen to what Biden had to say in reaction. 275 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: Of course, what do you say, Elon Musk? Then his 276 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: feeling about the economy. JB. Diamond has said similar things. Well, 277 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: let me tell you well, Elon Musk is talking about 278 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: that Ford is increasing their investment overwhelmingly. I think Ford 279 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: is increasing investment in building new electric vehicles six thousand 280 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 1: new employees union employees. I might add in the Midwest, 281 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: the former Chrysler corporations still ONTI they are also making 282 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: similar investments in electric vehicles. Intel is adding twenty thousand 283 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: new jobs or making computer chips, so, you know, lots 284 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: of luck on his trip to the moon. I mean, 285 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, okay, first of all, it's mars. 286 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm curiously read the shade personally, I'm 287 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: curious what you think, because, honestly, I mean, Elon's prognosis 288 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: was with this up there on the screen, he said 289 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: he's going to cut ten percent of its salaried workforce 290 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: over concerns about the global economy following a hiring spree. 291 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: That seems entirely reasonable. I mean, given the fact that 292 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: we see what the macroeconomic outlook is. Actually just looked 293 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: at some survey data, majority of Americans believe that they 294 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: are living in a recession right now, including both Democrats 295 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: and Republicans. So even with the partisans split, most people 296 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: feel as if they are living already in a recession, 297 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: which is obviously going to have a massive impact on 298 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: consumer spending. And we already see consumer spending going down 299 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: in Target and gap in Walmart. I mean, evs are 300 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: the definition of a luxury good, so it makes sense 301 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: that you would see a decline in sales there too. 302 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: This really smacks of poor management though, because they hired, 303 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: they increased their headcount by forty five percent boom during 304 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: the pandemic. And we know also, I mean electric vehicle demand, 305 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: we covered how it continues to go up. It's up 306 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: by three hundred percent. So it makes a lot more 307 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: sense to me, is you know, Ford and Chrysler are 308 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: these other companies that are adding capacity. And so it 309 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: seems like he went on like a wild hiring spree 310 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: and now turned around and like cut all those employees loose, 311 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: which I also would say, a couple this with that 312 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: memo that he sent out that was aggressively like get 313 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: your asses back in the office. Yeah, these are all 314 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: good reasons why you should have a union, why there 315 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: should be worker representation, and it shouldn't all be subject 316 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: to the whims of one billionaire and his quote unquote 317 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: gut feeling about the economy here. So yeah, I was 318 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: I was here for for Biden's commons. I enjoy it, 319 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: but he got it wrong. At least say it's good 320 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: to Mars. That's whatever. It doesn't actually matter. I mean 321 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: my point being, I think I do think though that 322 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: Biden's kind of defensiveness on this, I mean he needs 323 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: a better answer, because it's not he's not wrong that 324 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: people those car companies aren't investing in evs, but I'd 325 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: be certain that they're cutting their sales projections. I mean, 326 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: there's no way that anybody who relies on consumer spending, 327 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: especially even in the EV marketplace. I mean, these are 328 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: expensive cars, like most people cannot afford these cars, and 329 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: even with the forty five hundred dollars tax credit that 330 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: exists in place, you're still looking at what a fifty 331 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: thousand dollars investment minimum. On the other hand, though, you 332 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: have gas prices that are through the roof, so that 333 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: inherently makes it so it's gonna, you know, increase the 334 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: market and massive and uh incentive for people to go 335 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: in the direction of electric vehicles. And also people who 336 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: are at that end of the spectrum who are looking 337 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: at electric vehicles are gonna are going to be the 338 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: ones that are doing Okay, you know what, I'd bet 339 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: on plug in hybrids. I think that's gonna be the 340 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: big new thing. You think, so, yeah, I do, well, 341 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: just because you know, some people want gas flexibility and 342 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: they will be able to drive mostly on a lite. 343 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: People are concerned about the range of electric vehicles, Like, 344 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: am I good? Am I going to have to like 345 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,479 Speaker 1: hang out somewhere for twelve hours? Well, my vehicle charge ultimately. 346 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, again, my takeaway is it's good to have 347 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: unions that way, that workers are at the table and 348 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: not just like casually brought in and then casually like 349 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: dispatched with a year later. Yeah, I mean, it does 350 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: suck you ten percent if you aggressively expand given the demand. 351 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: I do think the impetus behind it, though, I mean 352 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: in terms of I don't think. I think anybody who 353 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: is banking on the same level consumer demand and consumer 354 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: sentiment over the last two years is absolutely foolish from 355 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: a business point of view, And I do think that 356 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: the President should acknowledge something like that. All right, guys, 357 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: New York Times take it a little bit of heat 358 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: getting dragged a bit online for their latest article. A 359 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: go ahad and throw this tweet up on the screen 360 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: the commentary here. All right. So the New York Times 361 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: article says their solution to the housing crisis living with 362 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: strangers Thrown together by New York City's brutal housing market. 363 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: These roommates find a way to get by even enclosed Carters. 364 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: The commentary here from Kevin Allman is The New York 365 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 1: Times discovers roommates. Yeah, and this is what happens, Sager, 366 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: when you do not have any working class people, yes, 367 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: amongst your rank and file, that you would think that 368 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: roommates with some sort of like new modern crazy invention, when, 369 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: of course, especially in New York City, I mean, this 370 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: is a time honored tradition exactly. So what is their 371 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: contention here? I mean, whenever we look through this that 372 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: people find each other in unique ways online to live together. 373 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: I mean, look, any person who's ever moved to an 374 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: urban area knows that this is how it goes. Yeah. 375 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: Especially they're like pointing to the fact that people have 376 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: like curtains and stuff in their living rooms. I've visited 377 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: friends in New York who there's like a whole scheme there. Yeah, 378 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: of like fake walls. You know, my roommates when I 379 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: first moved to DC back you know, a long time 380 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: ago on Craigs. Yeah, that's very common. I still know 381 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: people who do that. Yeah. Facebook now apparently there's like 382 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: all these Facebook Yeah, people will be like, Hi, I'm 383 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: looking for a roommate. There's like these big groups of 384 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: like forty fifty thousand people or whatever, and everybody's always 385 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: talking within there. I mean, whenever I graduate from college 386 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: and do the same thing, I was like, hey, is 387 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: anybody moving to the same area that I am. Someone 388 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, so I didn't even know a guy, Yeah, 389 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: just move in. So my confession about this article though, 390 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: is that I actually liked it, okay, and I went 391 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's very VOYI it's all kinds of different 392 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: people and like a little bit about their stories and 393 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: then their living spaces, which is always interesting to see 394 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: inside people's apartments and get like a little bit of 395 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: a peak into their lives. It reminded me of the 396 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: like humans of New York photography, just showing different people, 397 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: and like, that's what's so great about New York and 398 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: why I loved living there when I did live there, 399 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: is just the massive variety of people, all walks of life, 400 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: all different ethnicities, backgrounds, doing different stuff, the amount of 401 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: creative energy people doing you know, weird stuff you never 402 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: think of thrown together in the city in this instance, 403 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: and tight quarters. So the actual, like the article itself, 404 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: I kind of enjoyed looking through, just because that's always 405 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,959 Speaker 1: humans are interesting, right. The framing of it like it 406 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: was some new and novel, crazy idea to have roommates 407 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: was just it was a little suthing people's new thing roommates, Like, 408 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: come on, I bet you can go back to the 409 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties if people went classify. I mean people 410 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: have had anyway, these people are out of touch. We 411 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: have some new comments that are pretty interesting from Alexandria 412 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: Cassio Cortes regarding the term LATINX. Let's go ahead and 413 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: put this tweet up on the screen that says, for media, 414 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: I aoc blast fellow Democrats for resisting term LATINX. Quote 415 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: not about your reelection prospects. I think this was from 416 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: an Instagram live that she did, and in it here's 417 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: the full quote she says. I also have a mini 418 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: rant about this because there are some politicians, including Democratic politicians, 419 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: that rail against the term LATINX, and they're like, this 420 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: is so bad, this is so bad for the party, 421 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: like blah blah blah. And it's almost like it hasn't 422 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: struck some of these folks that another person's identity is 423 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: not about your reelection prospects. I have a lot of 424 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: thoughts about this first and foremost. I just can't imagine 425 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: this being like the hill that you die. Oh yeah, right, 426 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: I mean first and foremost. Ye, I can imagine lots 427 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: of things that are worthy hills to die. I support 428 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: there plenty of things that are not particularly popular that 429 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: I'm not going to back down off of because they 430 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: are policy things that I think would make a difference 431 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: for the country and in people's lives. And then it's 432 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: your duty to make the case and persuade people. Some 433 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: hangover up over this weird academic language that is thoroughly 434 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: rejected by the country, including by people who are in 435 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: the Hispanic community. Only two percent of Hispanic respondents actually 436 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: use the term themselves, Like, why is this the thing 437 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: that you are going to go to the mat over? 438 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: And part of me Sager wanted to be like, you know, 439 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: she represents this like very blue district. It's not going 440 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: to hurt her there, So if she wants to like 441 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: lean into this, then whatever. But the problem is she's 442 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: such a representative of the broader left movement that what 443 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: she says in the language that she uses has an 444 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: impact on how the left of the country is portrayed 445 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: and perceived by most of the nations. So with Bernie 446 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: you had someone who, you know, very intentionally used language 447 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: that was extremely accessible, that had a lot of resonance 448 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: not just with the left, but truly sort of across 449 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,479 Speaker 1: ideological That's why he's still one of the most popular 450 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: politicians in the entire country. With AOC, she really has 451 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: made it her brand to lean into this sort of 452 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: niche academic language that is like intentionally off putting and 453 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: has the impact of making your entire political project less popular. 454 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: I just don't understand why you would want to do that. 455 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: I don't get it either. I always think, you know, 456 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: Bernie had a great ad in twenty sixteen, the America Ad. 457 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: It was like full of American flag, fantastic, no way 458 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: ilan omar or maybe she would, I don't know, but 459 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: I don't think that her or AOC would ever appear 460 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: in an ad like that because like, oh, it supports 461 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: imperialism or some of you know, and they'll make up 462 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of other words that go along with it. 463 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: Even the justification, I mean is what are you saying, 464 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: So you're saying that the term LATINX is the best term? Why? 465 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the other thing. What's your case for that. 466 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: Your case is that gender's fluid language is few fluid, 467 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: and I think people right now are using e as German, 468 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: gender neutral in or to be inclusive as possible. We 469 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: don't have to make drama over it. It's like, well, 470 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: you're the one who's making the drama over it. So 471 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: you're saying that it's not inclusive. But then people who 472 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: are actually Latino think that it's off putting and weird, 473 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: and they call themselves Latino. So then are you accusing 474 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: them of like internalized sexism or racist? See how far 475 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: we can go down the rabbit hole. I think about, honestly, 476 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: one of those guys that we talked about on the show, 477 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: Uvaldi Dad who Latino. He lost one of his kids 478 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: in the shooting and people were attacking him for shit 479 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: posting Kyle Rittenhouse memes like a year earlier. How do 480 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: you think we got to a point where a some 481 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: probably I know nothing about this man. I'm just going 482 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: to make an assumption based upon the demographics of the region, 483 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: but a very likely like multi generational Mexican American with 484 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: roots in the area that I'm just again speaking generally 485 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: about Evaldine. What I know about that region of South Texas. 486 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: How did that person become a Republican and start doing this? 487 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to venture to say that it probably has 488 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: a lot to do with something like this. Yeah, And 489 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: here's the thing is, you know, how you speak, I 490 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: think depends a lot on what it is you're engagedent. 491 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: So what I mean by that is, you know, for 492 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: an activist, for someone who's at like the bleeding edge 493 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: of cultural chain, they're trying to push the languages. Okay, 494 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: I understand, like language does matter and have an impact, 495 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: and if that's your project, that's fine. The problem is 496 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: that AOC's project for herself is to lean into this 497 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: sort of like niche academic language, you know, very sort 498 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: of like you know, she has a real following and 499 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: a lot of power, and you know, is very sort 500 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: of like solidly gran grounded in that academic language which 501 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: is not readily accessible to the masses. That's her project 502 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: for herself. The problem is that it doesn't stay there 503 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: because she is such an emblem of the left movement, 504 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: so it has leader of our effects. And there's this 505 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: instinct on the left to almost like posture as being 506 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: the most radical or the most niche, the most isolated 507 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: from the mainstream, which, okay, if that's just like your thing, 508 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: I guess whatever. But if you're actually trying to build 509 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: political power and take the left from being just a 510 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: niche constituency to a broader, actual political movement that could 511 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: you do something in the country, then this is not 512 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: the way ultimately to go about it. So anyway, you know, 513 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: it's just another little interesting window into how she wants 514 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: to position herself, and ultimately I saw somebody make this 515 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: point on Twitter, like this is case in point why 516 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: she will never be the successor to Bernie, why she 517 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: will never be in position to win a national election. 518 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: You know, even I think to win statewide in New York, 519 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: as blue as state as that is, I think would 520 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: be difficult because she likes to put herself on the 521 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: side of not even issue but language that doesn't connect 522 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: with a broad majority of Americans. Yeah, it's funny because 523 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer definitely used to be afraid that she was. 524 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: He would kick her ass. I think he's still I 525 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: think he still is afraid because I mean, he's probably 526 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,239 Speaker 1: doesn't want to deal with it, but even if he did, 527 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: he would kick her ass. In New York primary there's 528 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,719 Speaker 1: no way she's not going to get any votes upstate 529 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 1: in New York. I mean even then in New York 530 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: City maybe, I mean the national brand in icon that 531 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,479 Speaker 1: she was when she won. I mean I remember I 532 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: was like, man, she is a force to well and 533 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: let me let me say, because I want to be 534 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: fair here, she she has great What was so exciting 535 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: about her at the beginning is, first of all, she 536 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: has this background being like great story, yeah, work as 537 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: a bartender, being a regular person getting energized by the 538 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: burning moment. I'm going to jump in here and I'm 539 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: going to beat this out of touch you know, old 540 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: guy who's not even in the district just takes it 541 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: for granted. Amazing. She has incredible I know she gets 542 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, slammed a lot, but she's 543 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: she's does have incredible communication skills and ability, and you 544 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: see that at times. She just made a comment recently 545 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: that actually that I really liked when she was talking 546 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: about you know, we don't live in a democracy. We 547 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: live in an oligarchy that has democratic moments, and I thought, 548 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: you know, that's a really good way. I think that's true, 549 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: and that's a really good way to think about it. 550 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: So she has that potential and has those moments, but increasingly, 551 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: I think as she's you know, come under attack routinely 552 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: by Fox News and by Why, she's sort of like 553 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: been rewarded for this type of language and leaning into 554 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: these types of fights. This is the direction that she's 555 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: taken her her brand, and so, like I said, ultimately, 556 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: what this says to me is she is not going 557 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: to be the successor to Bernie Sanders. She's not going 558 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: to win a nationwide election ever or be relevant, you know, 559 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: from a NAH electoral perspective, even though she is very 560 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: relevant naturally to the image of the left movement and 561 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: probably very difficult even for her to win statewide in 562 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: New York. Yeah, I think that's right. Welcome back to 563 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: Breaking Points Intercept Edition. I'm here with my Ryan Grim, 564 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: DC Berroo chief for the intercepting here with my colleague 565 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: Ken Klippenstein. We're going to talk about a couple of 566 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: Ken's stories leading to some impact on Capitol Hill today. 567 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: But first we want to start with Amazon. And so 568 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: recently there was a letter from Congress sent to Amazon. 569 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: We could put that up here. That was directed to 570 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: David Clark, who was what was his title, CFO. He 571 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: was the CEO of the consumer side, the CEO of 572 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: the consumer side of the business that was demanding answers 573 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: about something that you exposed, which was basically a chat app, 574 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: a chat censorship app that was going to make it 575 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: impossible for workers to use particular words. What kind of 576 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: words was Amazon going to block its workers from saying 577 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: to each other over this chat app? Yeah? So when 578 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: this was first disclosed to me, what jumped out at 579 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: me at the list was at first the words putten 580 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: into labor unions, which apparently there there are potential legal 581 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: consequences because you're that's protected speech if if workers want 582 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: to discuss. We have entire laws built around right, and 583 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: they're just now starting to be enforced in some way 584 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: from from to his credit, Biden's NLRB has been enforcing 585 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: these laws to your extent, not side of the toughest 586 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: agency in the Biden administration. Yeah, and so a number 587 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: of them were but labor unions and and uh, but 588 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: then I quickly realized there are other ones that were 589 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: just about general working conditions, not directly related to organized labor. 590 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: For example, you can see you can say restrooms or 591 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: bathroom which and let's put that article up. Well, yeah, restrooms, 592 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: bathroom And do you think that was because people are 593 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: complaining that they don't get long enough restroom breaks, complaining 594 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: about the stench in the restroom, or what else, Like 595 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: what I from your talking to workers, what's the rationale 596 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: for blocking people from saying restroom? Because you would think, 597 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: if if it's a collaborate workplace, hey, I gotta have 598 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: to run to the restroom, can you you know, cover 599 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: this thing? But no, you can't even do that, right, 600 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: So the impression that people had was just that they 601 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: don't want them talking about So I mentioned in the 602 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: story that there was a high level meeting of Amazon executives, 603 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: including including Dave Clark, in which they discuss, you know, 604 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: how do we make an app that they have a 605 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: problem with employee retention, which is interesting in itself. They 606 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: don't discuss in the meeting you know why that is, 607 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: But they say, so what are we going to do 608 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: about it? They said, well, what if we create this 609 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: internal chat app where workers can share positive feelings and 610 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: encouragement with each good vibes? Yeah, exactly, good a good 611 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,719 Speaker 1: a good vibe warehouse? Yes, yeah. And then quickly, uh, 612 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: it was it was rayed. So what do we do 613 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: about the dark side or social media as they as 614 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: they put it at the meeting, and they said, well, 615 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: we can just block and flag words that that are 616 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: going to make the conversation negative. And and that happened 617 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: to include this huge list of terms that wasn't just 618 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, labor unions, as I said, It was bathrooms, 619 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,479 Speaker 1: It was fair pay, fair wages, things like that. And 620 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: the idea was that this is going to enhance employee retention, 621 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: make people increase employee satisfaction, of course, without addressing the 622 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: underlying causes. When you talk to you know, workers, they say, 623 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, I'd be fine to stay here if we 624 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: could improve the conditions. It's just that it wears you 625 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: out so quickly. And so, you know, as we had 626 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: reported in the past, they have these punishing quotas that 627 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: they have to meet in the factories and a consequence 628 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: of that is that people are urinating in bottles, defecating 629 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: in bags to be able to meet these things. And 630 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: we had internal documents reflecting not only that that was happening, 631 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: but that management was aware of it and that they 632 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: had formalized policy around punishing people for those things right, 633 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: And at the heart of all of this to me 634 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: is their central their central driving kind of ideology is 635 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: represented in TOT, their time off task like this is 636 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: how this is. This is the stat that workers are 637 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: kind of saddled with, and so they have everybody mod 638 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: so effectively that if you're in the bathroom, or if 639 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: you are walking slower than they think you ought to 640 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: be walking, if it's taking a little bit longer for 641 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: you to do something, they'll start to register that you're 642 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: off task TOT, and you're only allowed a certain amount 643 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: of TOT, and then you get a demerit, a couple 644 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: of demerits, and you can just be summarily fired. You 645 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: can be My understanding too is and I accord it 646 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: from some Amazon workers, you can actually just be fired 647 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: just over the like just by text, basically, like your 648 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,239 Speaker 1: thing shuts off and you're told you're done. Because this 649 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: TOT thing, the number came underneath the threshold that they wanted, 650 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: and TOT was one of the one of the abbreviations 651 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: that you weren't allowed to say, which I found profound 652 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: in the sense that to them, to Amazon, it's the 653 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: most important thing. Yet they won't let their employees say it, 654 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: so they are clearly one hundred percent aware that it 655 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: is something their employees hate because it was because if 656 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: it was something that themployees bought into exactly, and we're like, 657 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: you know what, we're all in this together. You know, 658 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: people need their nose hair clippers in twenty four hours, 659 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 1: and we're gonna we're gonna get them these nose hair clippers. Uh. 660 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: And they you know, they do do important work. They're 661 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: they're keeping they're keeping the country supply. Yeah, in the 662 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: absence of any sort of government run logistics network, we 663 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: have to work and in business in the wake of 664 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: the retail apocalypse, right, they are you know, they're doing 665 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: they are actually legitimately doing important work. Some of the 666 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: some of the nose hair clippers probably not that big 667 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: of a deal. But if they believed in that mission 668 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: and they believed if the workers believed that time off 669 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: task was essential to making that hum, then they wouldn't 670 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: have it on the list as something only negative. Was 671 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: there anything else on there that you could that that 672 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: that you could say was ambiguous or what like? What 673 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: what made up the rest of the list. Well, some 674 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: of it was even kind of like you might call 675 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: social justice terms like I think the word equality, which 676 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: is just like that is a broad term, you know. 677 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,959 Speaker 1: And as I was talking to people about it, workers 678 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: are saying, well, there might even be used to these 679 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: terms outside of the political context in which they're concerned about. 680 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: That's going to make communicating difficult. So I mean, it 681 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: was they cast, They cast stuff like unfair, they cast 682 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: a wide nat So interesting to me the discourse in 683 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: the United States, the obsession with with orwell and the 684 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: idea of big brother the state, and not that that's 685 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: not a concern, but in my experience, the people with 686 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: the really scary tools are private corporations, mega corporations like Amazon, 687 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: people who in fact are contracting with the federal government 688 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: to provide them a lot of services. I had a 689 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: conversation with an FBI counterintelligence officer some time ago, and 690 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: he was and I was asking him about their capabilities, 691 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: and he said, you know what, we're really jealous of Amazon. 692 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: I wish we could have what the Amazon and Google 693 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: artists we had. That. It was like, the FBI is 694 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: jealous of all right, So Congress sends this letter to 695 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: Dave Clark. Then what happens, and then the very next 696 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: day he announces his resignation, which came as a shock 697 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: to a lot of Amazon. He's been there for how long, 698 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: I think over two decades, an extremely you know, high 699 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: level position CEO of the consumer side and the face 700 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: of a lot of this stuff. He was one of 701 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: the guys that was tweeting at Bernie Sanders saying, you know, 702 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: you claim you're progressive, Well we just gave workers fifteen 703 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: dollars an hour. Where are the real progressives? How about that? 704 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: And just clearly antagonizing, right is he the one who 705 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: famously clapped back at Mark Pocan and said, so for 706 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: people to remember this one that Mark Poe can at 707 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: something like you guys are so exploitative of your workers 708 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: that they have to piss in bags. And he's like, 709 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: that's Dave Clark claps back, that's misinformation, Shame on you, 710 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: you know whatever whatever he said to him and you 711 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: and then you and at that point then I start 712 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 1: talking to because I've been reporting on this for a while, 713 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: I knew people on Amazon and they were just laughing 714 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: at the like, not only is it true, it is 715 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 1: so prevalent that every it's not something that's toes around it, 716 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: and we were able to substantiate that on a document basis, 717 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: not even just interviews with workers, but like showing that 718 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: it was formalized in policy. How they're going to respond 719 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: to this yelling at workers stop doing this without addressing 720 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: why it's happening. So I think a lot of workers, 721 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: I know that, in the sense of getting sources to 722 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: talk to me, they were really motivated by how dishonest 723 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: and disingenuous the company was being and talking about something 724 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, and I think that Clark stepping down 725 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: the day after this letter came out, I think is 726 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: an admission that this like clapping back kind of arrogant 727 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: approach that Amazon is taking isn't isn't the way to move, 728 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: particularly because the Senate is considering whether or not to 729 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: pass legislation in the next couple of weeks that would 730 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: ban it and a couple other companies, but Amazon being 731 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: a primary target of it, ban it from favoring its 732 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: own products, which is es central to its profit margin right, 733 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: and which I understand from staffers on the Hill. There's 734 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 1: a lot of frustration on the part of Congress at 735 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: Amazon's cavalier attitude, not just towards you know, worker conditions, 736 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: but even towards Congress, they are not responding to document 737 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 1: requests that Congress has been sending them. Congress doesn't demand 738 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: that you treat workers well, but they demand that you 739 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: treat Congress well. Right, so that right you're on our 740 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: turf net. You better straws them. Anyway, great reporting. We're 741 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: going to talk about some more impact that some of 742 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: our reporting had on Jared Kushner and his future investments, 743 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: So stick around for that. This has been an episode 744 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: of Breaking Points the Intercept And if you have a 745 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: tip for Ken, you can find his number on Twitter 746 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: or if you want to just give it to him 747 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: to zero two five one, zero twelve sixty eight U 748 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: signal yes, you signal I have open DMS, so don't 749 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: only use that if it's something that you are You're 750 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 1: okay with the NSA reading. All right, welcome back to 751 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: Breaking Points an Intercept edition. I'm Ryan Graham, DC Bureau 752 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: Chief with the Intercept. I'm here with my colleague Ken Klippenstein's. 753 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about a letter that was 754 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: sent recently by the House Oversight and Government what's it 755 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: called now, the Committee on Oversight and Reform. They changed 756 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: the name of this committee every two years to Jared 757 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: Kushner demanding a series of documents. And the documents that 758 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,399 Speaker 1: they're demanding are interesting. I will see if they ever 759 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: get them. But we'll go into later what they're asking for. 760 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: But to start, let me give a bit of a 761 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: long winded wind up to give to set the kind 762 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 1: of frame for people who may not have followed Jared 763 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: Kushner's machinations over the years. So and jump in here 764 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: if there's anything I'm missing, But I think the key 765 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: moment is two thousand and seven is where all of 766 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: this begins. Kushner takes over his family's troubled somewhat trouble 767 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 1: but doing pretty well real estate empire in New York City. 768 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 1: He's this little young thinks he's a wonder kind and 769 00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 1: quickly engages in the most expensive real estate transaction in 770 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: the history of New York City. He buys for one 771 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: point eight billion dollars this property at six sixty six 772 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: Fifth Avenue. Now this is two thousand and seven. By 773 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, everybody involved in real estate was 774 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: getting out of real estate, the regular people, some of 775 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: them were still getting in, but even regular people. By 776 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, were like, this is looking a 777 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: little bit shaky. I'm not sure where this is headed, 778 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: but this doesn't feel very good. Kushner says, no, I 779 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: want this property, six sixty six Fifth Avenue at one 780 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: point eight billion, basically sinks his family's entire fortune into it, 781 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: because you're just absolutely leveraged to the hilt at this 782 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: point two thousand and eight, we know what happened the 783 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: financial crisis. The building is worth like half or less 784 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: of that instantly, and now he's soon two thousand and nine, 785 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: twenty ten, he starts to have calls due on this 786 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: on this loan which is just absolutely not performing. He 787 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: scrabbles together a bunch of help, some of it thanks 788 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: to Tom Barrack, who was later indicted as part of 789 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: a Saudi influence scheme. He is able to kind of 790 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,479 Speaker 1: refinance it and just kick the can down the road 791 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: long enough to get into the White House. So he 792 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,240 Speaker 1: becomes Donald Trump's advisor since he's his son in law. 793 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, and his family starts a kind of 794 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: tour of the Middle East shaking down money for this property, 795 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: and he's regularly in contact with his father, who's you know, 796 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: continuing to run this this real estate firm, and he 797 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: himself is meeting with the Qataris, with the Saudis, with 798 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: the Hmoradis, while at the same time that his real 799 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: estate firm needs this bailout and is pushing policy at 800 00:40:54,520 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: the same time his business shakes down. The Qataris and 801 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: the Qataris end up telling him no. They later told me, 802 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: if we had known what was going to happen as 803 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: a result of that, what they feel as a result 804 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: of that, they would have just given him the money. 805 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: Would have been much cheaper to just give him the money. 806 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: So the Saudis and the yue then blockade Right after 807 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: Trump visits Riod, you know, puts the ORB, the hands 808 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: on the ORB. They blockade Cutter. There is a base 809 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: with ten thousand American troops on the Cutter and they're 810 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: blockading it and threatening to invade Cutter, and the Secretary 811 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: of State Rex Tillerson condemns this publicly. The US is 812 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 1: like this has to end. Kushner back channels to Trump, 813 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: writes a little statement for him, which apparently what his 814 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: soul was written by UAD Ambassador Yusaf al O Taba 815 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: and sides with Saudi and says, hey, cutter, I'm told 816 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of terrorists there, so I'm fine with 817 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: this blockade. That blockade ends up lasting the entire Trump term. 818 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: A year later, Saudi Arabia Butcher's with a bone saw 819 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: Jamal Koshogi. Kushner becomes the number one defender globally and 820 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: inside the White House of MBS my Vin Salmon, who 821 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: we now know and it was clear at the time 822 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:25,879 Speaker 1: ordered the killing of Koshogi. Flash forward to twenty twenty one. 823 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,720 Speaker 1: Now that he's out of the White House, he starts 824 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: a private equity firm, so it's an investment fund, goes 825 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: to RIOD, winds up with two billion dollars. So your 826 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: reporting has cited multiple times. Some of our reporting previously 827 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: is sited in here, particularly because one of the things 828 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: you expose was just what a ridiculous investment this was. 829 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: And that's not me talking, that's not you talking. So 830 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: who was it that looked at this and said, why 831 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: on earth would you give this kid money? Yeah, So, 832 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,800 Speaker 1: in the course of working for the story, my sources 833 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: for it were people in the private equity world. I 834 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: had to be vague about that. I don't want to 835 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: get anybody in trouble. But what they told me was 836 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: that when this investment vehicle was pitched, you know, right 837 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 1: after the Trump admistration ended and they're out of government, 838 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: these are pitched to some very high level people in 839 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: the Wall Street world. There was ridicule and laughter after 840 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: the presentation because they could understand what the product was. 841 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: They said, what are they selling. There's repeated reference to 842 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,799 Speaker 1: all our fancy connections throughout the region, but what is 843 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: the actual It's just kind of business speak. And my 844 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: understanding is that you know, in the business world, yes 845 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 1: that exists, but not at the level that these guys 846 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: were pitched. And you don't waste people in Wall Street 847 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: at that level's time with this kind of pablem. And 848 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: they had the impression that it was just influence pedling, 849 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 1: because all it was was we know this guy, we 850 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: know this guy, we know this guy. Look at all 851 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 1: these people high up that are in this investment world. 852 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: There was no talk of what the actual assets are, 853 00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 1: you know, what the plan is really And there was 854 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 1: also are reporting that the advisors to the Saudi Fund 855 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: itself yes, said don't do this like this. There's their 856 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,239 Speaker 1: own sovereign investment fund says this is a very bad idea. 857 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: They're not ahead, they're overridden by MBS or says something, 858 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: and then they go ahead and invest it. But yeah, 859 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: their own bureaucrats are saying that this is not a 860 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,720 Speaker 1: second invest So you have the Saudi Investment Fund people 861 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: and you have top Wall Street private actory people saying 862 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: this is way over the top. That Obviously networking who 863 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: you know these are important things in global capitalism. Obviously 864 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: that's that's the case, but you need something more than that, Like, 865 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: who we know is important to us because of our 866 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: real estate strategy that we're going to develop in Saigon, 867 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: and because we know the rights Saigon. These officials, you 868 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: know this is gonna work, This is gonna work for 869 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: us or whatever. Like, you have to have some reason 870 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: that knowing these people is going to make you money. 871 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 1: The all street people on the side of you are like, 872 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: you have nothing here, what is this? So you know people? Okay, 873 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? And so the implication, very 874 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,759 Speaker 1: strong implication left in this letter is that this was 875 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: just a payoff for the work that you did for 876 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: Saudi interests during your time as advisor to President Trump, 877 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: and potentially a payoff for future work, which is you 878 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: will do if you return to the White House, which 879 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 1: is the Cutter example that you cited before, you know, 880 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,720 Speaker 1: really suggests that not only was this a pro Persian 881 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,720 Speaker 1: Gulf administration, but it was an intensely partisan one among 882 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,800 Speaker 1: parties within that even right to you know Cutter, Historically, 883 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 1: the US has never had any problems with We have 884 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: a giant base there that they wash all sorts of money, 885 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: and they like they're they're the place where we would 886 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: host like the negotiations with the Taliban like it. It's 887 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: sort of like the Switzerland of the Middle East. Like 888 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: all of these different factions who are who were warring 889 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: all over the place are allowed to come to Doha 890 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: and kind of live in peace. And and that's how 891 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: you can sit down at the table with the tal 892 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: Van for And what I was told is that the 893 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:18,320 Speaker 1: internal conflict with Cutter was the major reason that Secretary 894 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: of State Tillerson ended up resigning because he just I mean, 895 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: he's a long time oil man. He used the what 896 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: CEO of ex On Mobile for number of years, and 897 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: so he knows the region and he just thought it 898 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 1: was crazy, right right, And and so the question is 899 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: why do they have this very partisan position. Partisan not 900 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,799 Speaker 1: in the sense of Democrat republican, but the sense of 901 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: like specific regional jockeying. Why are they siding with one 902 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,359 Speaker 1: specific party? And then you know, I can I can 903 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,320 Speaker 1: guess one billion reasons and so so so towards the 904 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: end of this they ask for Kushner. They asked for 905 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: where we got it here, all communications all communications from 906 00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: January seventeenth to present discussing Thrive, which is his brother's 907 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: business in the Middle East, including but not limited to 908 00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: Thrives interactions with Saudi government officials. And so this goes 909 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:19,319 Speaker 1: to the internescine nature of the government work and the 910 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: business work that you had, the real estate operation you 911 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: had to Thrive. This his brother's company, which was raising 912 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,919 Speaker 1: all sorts of venture capital fund He's his brother met 913 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 1: with with the Qataris at one point, as we reported, 914 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: And so they're asking for all communications with the Saudi's 915 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 1: about Thrives. So, in other words, is he using his 916 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,840 Speaker 1: position to leverage to leverage investments to his family. I 917 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,400 Speaker 1: think from a distance it looks like obviously he is. 918 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,840 Speaker 1: The question is is this something that you can prove? 919 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: They also they also ask for quote all communications between 920 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: you and Crown Prince Muhammed bin Salmon or other Saudi 921 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: officials from January twenty, twenty seventeen to the present, and 922 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: all documents related to such communications related to your or 923 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: your family's present or future business ventures, including but not 924 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: limited to Saudi investments or participation in any of these ventures. 925 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 1: And one of the things that we reported that they 926 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: cite in this letter is that he used WhatsApp to 927 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 1: communicate with MBS, And so that's an interesting question. The 928 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: reason he would use what's app is so he could 929 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: go around the White House chain. You're supposed to use 930 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: official channels, not just you know, because that formalizes things 931 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: in your bearercunts can understand what's going on, but also 932 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,120 Speaker 1: just so the historians get a picture of what the 933 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,879 Speaker 1: heck was going on during the administration the President's Records Act, 934 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: and also because who knows who's reading your WhatsApp checks? 935 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and the security And so it's an interesting question. 936 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:56,319 Speaker 1: Then if they subpoena these, I would assume he's deleted them, right. 937 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: Could they get them from Facebook? Can they get them 938 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: from the NSA? You know, the NSA is not supposed 939 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: to be spying on White House officials not supposed to 940 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:10,360 Speaker 1: be spying on American citizens at all. However, they are 941 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: definitely monitoring Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman that he's not 942 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,279 Speaker 1: an American citizen, that is, that is somebody that is. 943 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 1: Every administration is like, yes, of course we're going to 944 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,239 Speaker 1: try to spy on, you know, those those types of 945 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: figures out you're not supposed to spy on ahead of state. 946 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: But he's not ahead of he's not officially right ahead 947 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: of state. So where do you come down on the 948 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: on the privacy question here? And do you think that 949 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: this will go anywhere? Or do you think that Kushner 950 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 1: all he has to do, he knows that all he 951 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,839 Speaker 1: has to do is just stonewall thists for six months. Well, people, 952 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: Republicans will be back. Yeah, people in What people in 953 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 1: the US intelligence community and people close to Middle East 954 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: governments in the region tell me is that it's important 955 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 1: to understand that not isn't a historical artifact where it's 956 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: you know, potentially a reward for services rendered during the administration, 957 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: but but it could be something that is going to 958 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,839 Speaker 1: affect policy going forward, because again those same sources tell 959 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 1: me that government officials in Saturabia in the UAE take 960 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,879 Speaker 1: for granted that Trump is going to win the next election. 961 00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,200 Speaker 1: Whether or not that's true, that's the attitude. And so 962 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:14,960 Speaker 1: when you have that attitude, when you have an assumption, 963 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: the question is, well, how can we leverage him again 964 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,560 Speaker 1: to try to do to try to influence him, to 965 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,440 Speaker 1: try to get him to do things that we want. 966 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,319 Speaker 1: And I think that is the prism through which this 967 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,319 Speaker 1: kind of apparent influence pedaling should be seen, not just 968 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 1: something that pertained to the previous administration, but one that 969 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: could have effects on the upcoming election and forthcoming administrations. Right, 970 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,239 Speaker 1: so they feel like they're another administration will be back 971 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 1: in power that they can buy off, so that will 972 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,799 Speaker 1: sell out American interests. And as we have talked about 973 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,839 Speaker 1: a lot, they have some say over this. They are 974 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,279 Speaker 1: not just passive observers of American electoral politics. They have 975 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:59,399 Speaker 1: in the past influenced approval ratings by either producing more 976 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: oil or reducing the output of oil. When when OPEC 977 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,759 Speaker 1: pushes more oil into the market, the price comes down 978 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,399 Speaker 1: very and we're seeing them very strikingly now. And that's 979 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,680 Speaker 1: the impression that I get from from folks familiar with 980 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 1: the region, which is that you know, I say, you know, 981 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,879 Speaker 1: they are devastating the American economy. This has a huge 982 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 1: role inflation. Very interesting that we don't hear about this, 983 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: the Saudi oil's role in the inflation debate. It's just 984 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,280 Speaker 1: discussed as some sort of abstract economic theory, completely untethered 985 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,920 Speaker 1: to any of these kinds of things. I mean, we 986 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,480 Speaker 1: can go into why that is. People don't like to 987 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,399 Speaker 1: talk about satur Abia generally it's embarrassing to Washington. But 988 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,239 Speaker 1: you know, I asked these guys to say, isn't this 989 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: going to enrage Biden the Democrats? You're really going to 990 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 1: push them away and politicize the relationship. And again, the 991 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,880 Speaker 1: view of these governments is, we don't think Mine's going 992 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,239 Speaker 1: to win, We think Trump's will come back, so it 993 00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. We don't care, right, And so even if 994 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: there is some relief on gas prices, and I expect, 995 00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,160 Speaker 1: actually this is my guess that after the mid terms, 996 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,880 Speaker 1: when the damage is done to Democrats, you'll start to 997 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,360 Speaker 1: see gas prices come down because the mission will have 998 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,880 Speaker 1: been accomplished. Yeah, you won't get nasty letters like this 999 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,319 Speaker 1: from Republicans on the Oversight Committee who We're just fine 1000 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,920 Speaker 1: with whatever Trump and Kushner want to do in the 1001 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:15,719 Speaker 1: Middle East. I mean most of them are. There are 1002 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,439 Speaker 1: some that are not. But then late twenty twenty three 1003 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,439 Speaker 1: or twenty twenty four, I bet you're going to start 1004 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,640 Speaker 1: to see gas prices. Oh yeah, sing again. And this 1005 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,360 Speaker 1: very high level. And the question is if the Democrats 1006 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,920 Speaker 1: are going to be willing to be candid about this 1007 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,560 Speaker 1: because they are fighting this behind the scenes. They are 1008 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,640 Speaker 1: not messaging to the public to explain to them what 1009 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,719 Speaker 1: exactly is happening. How many times you've seen Biden go 1010 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,359 Speaker 1: out and say, hey, he says the Putin gas tax, 1011 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,279 Speaker 1: which obviously Putin has a role in it, but I've 1012 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,200 Speaker 1: never heard him say the MBS gas tax. I've never 1013 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,040 Speaker 1: seen him talk about the role of Saturdaybia in this. 1014 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,240 Speaker 1: To try to stimulate, you know, some kind of response 1015 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 1: by the public to realize, hey, we're providing these countries 1016 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,799 Speaker 1: with security paid for via US tax dollars. Maybe they 1017 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,440 Speaker 1: have some maybe maybe they have some responsibility to us. No, 1018 00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,120 Speaker 1: he never says any of that. And the reason is 1019 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: because it's the relationship is embarrassing. It's a sordid regime 1020 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,279 Speaker 1: with terrible human rights record that they don't want to 1021 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 1: talk about. And so long as he continues to hide 1022 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 1: that and refuse to discuss it, people aren't going to 1023 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,399 Speaker 1: understand why gas prices are what they are where they're 1024 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,920 Speaker 1: going to have a simplistic understanding of what it is 1025 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: and the knock on effects like inflation and things like that. 1026 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,840 Speaker 1: So that big question, that's the big question to me, 1027 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:21,719 Speaker 1: is how much are they going to come out and 1028 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 1: finally discuss this, because they never have. I've never been 1029 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,360 Speaker 1: straight with the American people about this actually, and hopefully 1030 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 1: of the Russia's invasion of Ukraine will have will have 1031 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:35,040 Speaker 1: ended by then, so that won't be driving gas prices too. 1032 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: And the message would be quite simple. It would be 1033 00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,920 Speaker 1: there's a tyrant in the Middle East who's making you 1034 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,160 Speaker 1: pay five dollars a gallon so that Trump can come 1035 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,800 Speaker 1: back into office, so that his friend Jared Kushner continues 1036 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,320 Speaker 1: to run US foreign policy in the Middle East. It's 1037 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,279 Speaker 1: pretty straightforward. You're paying five dollars a gallon because this 1038 00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 1: tyrant wants Trump in the White House. And unfortunately, as 1039 00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,360 Speaker 1: simple as that message is, and I am in the 1040 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,000 Speaker 1: American public, you know their adults, they would understand. I 1041 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,319 Speaker 1: don't think it's a secret why we maintain relations with 1042 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,400 Speaker 1: those countries. If you look at Biden's ridick. Now he's saying, 1043 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,080 Speaker 1: he's saying, oh, the relationship is not this isn't about oil. 1044 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to go visit MBS. He's going to abrogate 1045 00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,239 Speaker 1: his promise to make Saudirabit a pariah. That was a 1046 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,719 Speaker 1: language not a lot of uncertainty, and in language like that, 1047 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:22,400 Speaker 1: Now he's saying he's going to meet with him. They're saying, well, 1048 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:23,920 Speaker 1: why is that. They said, oh, it's because of the 1049 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:25,960 Speaker 1: oil prices, which it obviously is. He says, no, that 1050 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with it. The relationship is deep 1051 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,640 Speaker 1: and complex, and it goes fart want to chat and 1052 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: it's like with my good friend. You're treating Americans like children, 1053 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,160 Speaker 1: like come on, they understand how this stuff work. Nobody's 1054 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,239 Speaker 1: going to believe that you know, right, And if you 1055 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,840 Speaker 1: told the Marian people, look, we're overlooking the butchering of 1056 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,239 Speaker 1: this journalist, and we're overlooking these human rights abuses because 1057 00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,920 Speaker 1: we need two dollars gawn gas. A lot of people 1058 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 1: would be like, well, Trump said, I want to say 1059 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: it out loud, but I'm okay with that Trump did 1060 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,520 Speaker 1: essentially that Oh Trump, absolutely, Yeah, I think it was. 1061 00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,440 Speaker 1: I think it was representative Tom Alanowski said to one 1062 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,160 Speaker 1: of our reporters here, Shroeda. He said Trump had the 1063 00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,200 Speaker 1: right idea in the sense that he threatened to withdraw 1064 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: the US military from the region unless they started producing 1065 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,080 Speaker 1: oil quotas, you know, along the lines of what we wanted, 1066 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,360 Speaker 1: and that worked. That worked against MBS. We have power. 1067 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 1: That's not even a threat, that's not even a positive 1068 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,600 Speaker 1: threat of doing anything. That's just saying we will pull 1069 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,759 Speaker 1: our support and then good luck dealing with your right. 1070 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 1: So this notion that we don't have any leverage is 1071 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:28,040 Speaker 1: just not true. Yeah, very true. Ken, great reporting. As always, 1072 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,359 Speaker 1: Thank you everybody for joining us here. This has been 1073 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,759 Speaker 1: another episode of Breaking Points the Intercept. You can if 1074 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,879 Speaker 1: you have a tip for Ken, you can reach him 1075 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,840 Speaker 1: on signal his His signal phone number is on his 1076 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:45,279 Speaker 1: on his Twitter. Check out our podcast Intercepts Deconstructed. I'm 1077 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,719 Speaker 1: I'm only I'm only doing Rising Fridays with Emily Joshinsky. 1078 00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,879 Speaker 1: Otherwise I'm happy to come by here with with Ken 1079 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,520 Speaker 1: or anybody else from the Intercept and thank you guys 1080 00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:59,560 Speaker 1: for induledging us. Hey, guys, our friend Marsha Kossof he's 1081 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,319 Speaker 1: going to be aducting interviews with experts and newsmakers for 1082 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,799 Speaker 1: us here on the Breaking Points channel. We're really excited. Yep. 1083 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,360 Speaker 1: Here it is a Breaking Points. I'm back with Nate Hawkman. 1084 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,160 Speaker 1: We did that episode a few weeks back where we 1085 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,799 Speaker 1: talked about the future of the right, secularism, barstoore, conservatism. 1086 00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:17,920 Speaker 1: Everything in the audience I know is into So I 1087 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:19,400 Speaker 1: wanted to follow up with Nicks. You just had a 1088 00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 1: new piece in The New York Times. It's called What's 1089 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: after the Religious Rite? Let me just ask you the 1090 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,280 Speaker 1: most meta question I could ask you for Breaking Points, 1091 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,960 Speaker 1: which is, and I know everyone's thinking in the comments section, 1092 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,080 Speaker 1: why write for the New York Times. You know you're 1093 00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,920 Speaker 1: at National Review, You're a fellow there. The tagline for 1094 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 1: this show is say spree to the mainstream media. But 1095 00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,520 Speaker 1: why is it important to articulate your viewpoints to let's say, 1096 00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,120 Speaker 1: a very unsympathetic audience like that? I think, well, I 1097 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,280 Speaker 1: think the reason that it's important is because it's unsimptic audience. 1098 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,440 Speaker 1: But this is like actually a conversation that I had 1099 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,799 Speaker 1: with my friends when The New York Times reginly reached 1100 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,200 Speaker 1: out because, like a lot of conservatives, I spend a 1101 00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:57,960 Speaker 1: lot of times, a lot of time dunking on the 1102 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,399 Speaker 1: Times and writing for them. I think maybe some people 1103 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,279 Speaker 1: would think that was selling out, but to me, it's 1104 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,160 Speaker 1: like The Times, for better for worse, is the paper 1105 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,000 Speaker 1: of record, not just in America but probably in the 1106 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,640 Speaker 1: Western world. It's an enormous platform, and it's a reader 1107 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,080 Speaker 1: base that is wildly ideologically different than the reader and 1108 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,360 Speaker 1: viewer base that I'm usually talking to. So if I 1109 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,040 Speaker 1: can take the opportunity to actually explain my point of 1110 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,560 Speaker 1: view from my perspective rather than letting other people tell 1111 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,840 Speaker 1: that story, I think generally I'm willing to take that opportunity. Yeah, 1112 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:31,760 Speaker 1: and I want to pull a line that you wrote 1113 00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: in the piece, which you said, it's the culture wars stupid. 1114 00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 1: You're referencing James Carver nineteen ninety two bo put into 1115 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,120 Speaker 1: the election where he said it's the economy stupid. Basically, 1116 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,600 Speaker 1: everything's abt economics. And I definitely know theres a part 1117 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,400 Speaker 1: of the Breaking Points audience which is going to be 1118 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,560 Speaker 1: a little unhappy with us focusing on culture wars because 1119 00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: of this idea that, hey, culture wars are divisive, let's 1120 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: focus on the economy, would focus on healthcare, it's focus 1121 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,200 Speaker 1: on higher ed and inflation. You could take this in 1122 00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,960 Speaker 1: a right direction, taking the left direction, why is it 1123 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,640 Speaker 1: the culture war or stupid? Given all the problems we 1124 00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,480 Speaker 1: have in the country right now? Yeah, well, look, first 1125 00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: of all, let me say to the viewers who are 1126 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,000 Speaker 1: sort of frustrated with the culture war discourse, I get it. 1127 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,680 Speaker 1: The culture wars often do feel mind numbingly stupid a 1128 00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,280 Speaker 1: lot of the times, and they are divisive, right. I mean. 1129 00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,040 Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I think the cultural issues 1130 00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,800 Speaker 1: that we're debating in the culture wars are so important 1131 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,480 Speaker 1: is because, as we talked about on the last podcast 1132 00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,360 Speaker 1: I came on, these are the foundational political questions that 1133 00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,400 Speaker 1: we're debating. Right. It's the meaning of men and women, 1134 00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:31,880 Speaker 1: It's the meaning of America. It's the meaning of you know, 1135 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,400 Speaker 1: national integrity, borders, et cetera. You can sort of go 1136 00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:39,400 Speaker 1: down the list, but those issues really sort of tap 1137 00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 1: into a lot of electoral passion. People care about them. 1138 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,760 Speaker 1: So the sort of reframing of the James Carvill it's 1139 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 1: the economy stupid line from the ninety two Bill Clinton 1140 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 1: campaign was sort of a partially tongue in cheek, partially 1141 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,800 Speaker 1: serious way of pointing out that actually, for better or 1142 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,320 Speaker 1: for worse, the debates that we're having in the culture 1143 00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,919 Speaker 1: wars are debates that matter to people. And while absolutely, 1144 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, economics are important too, and making sure that 1145 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 1: people have good jobs and are able to sort of 1146 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:06,640 Speaker 1: provide for their families, et cetera, et cetera. Of course 1147 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 1: those are important issues. But there's a certain impulse, I 1148 00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:13,000 Speaker 1: think in the elite commentariat to sort of sniff at 1149 00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,520 Speaker 1: cultural issues and say, well, those aren't serious issues, right, 1150 00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,439 Speaker 1: those are issues that you know, pundits talk about because 1151 00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:20,240 Speaker 1: they want to sort of rile up the base, et cetera. 1152 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,200 Speaker 1: But I actually think that these are again, really really 1153 00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,720 Speaker 1: important issues, and I think that the fact that people 1154 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,960 Speaker 1: care about them is entirely legitimate, and I think, you know, 1155 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,000 Speaker 1: as a Republican, i'd like to see the Republican Party 1156 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,280 Speaker 1: recognize that to an extent. Yeah, and I really resonated 1157 00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,000 Speaker 1: with what you said, because I think we disagree on 1158 00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:37,520 Speaker 1: a lot of the issues that we're going to talk 1159 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,640 Speaker 1: about in terms of the actual policy. But something I've 1160 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,640 Speaker 1: learned the past few years. Is that part of what 1161 00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,320 Speaker 1: recognizing politics is is you can't just say, oh, don't 1162 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,160 Speaker 1: care about that. It goes either. It're actually like whether 1163 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,479 Speaker 1: or not people agree, Like let's say, with LGBTQ rights 1164 00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,760 Speaker 1: being like the most important issue in the country. There 1165 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:55,960 Speaker 1: are voters on the Democratic side, there are voters on 1166 00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,000 Speaker 1: the Republican side who definitely think that it is. It's 1167 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,800 Speaker 1: not a conspiracy if you're not hoodwinked. They're not like, 1168 01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, consuming the opiate of the masses, like that's 1169 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,040 Speaker 1: just their opinion. And what your duty is as a 1170 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,080 Speaker 1: person who's engaging in politics is to recognize that fact 1171 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:11,480 Speaker 1: and then operate accordingly. So I think that's why your 1172 01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,560 Speaker 1: thought is useful in that. So let's just actually go 1173 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,440 Speaker 1: in and push on the assumption that basically underlying your 1174 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,400 Speaker 1: piece this idea that something's coming next after the religious right, 1175 01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,440 Speaker 1: because I think for a lot of listeners, especially for 1176 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,760 Speaker 1: people who are living in blue states or even cities, 1177 01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,680 Speaker 1: the idea that the religious right is going away doesn't 1178 01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,960 Speaker 1: make any sense whatsoever. You talk about this Roby Wade 1179 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:34,480 Speaker 1: is likely to be overturned. Obviously, you have this huge 1180 01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:37,919 Speaker 1: Republican backflass which is probably gonna lead to successful red 1181 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,480 Speaker 1: victory in the midterms. Explain the seeming contradiction between what 1182 01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,040 Speaker 1: you're describing here, right, And I think one of the 1183 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,560 Speaker 1: reasons that this is an admittedly provocative thesis is because 1184 01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,520 Speaker 1: we're probably on the cusp of Roe v. Wade being overturned. 1185 01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,840 Speaker 1: But as I pointed out in the early paragraphs of 1186 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,040 Speaker 1: the piece, Roby Wade being overturned would be more of 1187 01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,680 Speaker 1: a last gasp for the religious right than it really 1188 01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,880 Speaker 1: would be a sign of resurgent power, because the entire 1189 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,120 Speaker 1: country is rapidly secularizing. Fewer and fewer Americans are going 1190 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,080 Speaker 1: to church every single year, and the Republican Party has 1191 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:10,680 Speaker 1: not been immune to that trend. I mean, we have 1192 01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:14,600 Speaker 1: seen drastic reductions in the number of Republican voters who 1193 01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:17,200 Speaker 1: routinely go to church, and in the number of Republican 1194 01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,920 Speaker 1: voters who just self identify as Christian or say that 1195 01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,080 Speaker 1: being Christian is an important part of the American identity. 1196 01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:26,080 Speaker 1: So my point was pointing out that amid all of 1197 01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:29,840 Speaker 1: this sort of resurgent cultural war energy, because the culture 1198 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,200 Speaker 1: wars really are more fierce right now than they've been 1199 01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,720 Speaker 1: in a very long time, one aspect of the story 1200 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,880 Speaker 1: I think that's getting missed is that this is not 1201 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,480 Speaker 1: being driven primarily by the old religious right. There is 1202 01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,640 Speaker 1: a sort of secular cultural conservatism which is a sentence 1203 01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:47,800 Speaker 1: and which is engaging in a lot of these debates 1204 01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,400 Speaker 1: and has an uneasy relationship I think, with the old 1205 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,240 Speaker 1: religious right, but is driven by Republican voters who don't 1206 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 1: necessarily go to church anymore, and that's going to result 1207 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,360 Speaker 1: in a different Republican party, a different conservative movement, and 1208 01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:02,800 Speaker 1: ultimately a th think, a different country. Yeah, it's interesting. 1209 01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 1: You do a good job of setting up with dichotomy 1210 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:08,040 Speaker 1: between the let's say, the old culture war touch points 1211 01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:09,520 Speaker 1: and the new ones. Like what are some of the 1212 01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,520 Speaker 1: old ones like you listed, you know, school prayer, no 1213 01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:17,800 Speaker 1: fault divorce, traditional gay rights, like expanding those. Then we'll 1214 01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:19,560 Speaker 1: get into the new ones, like what were the defining 1215 01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,080 Speaker 1: parts about that? Yeah, I think, you know, the old 1216 01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: Christian Conservatism was trying to defend this old public, sort 1217 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:31,320 Speaker 1: of small sea conservative Protestant moral order, which was why 1218 01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:33,440 Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of primary debates that it 1219 01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:35,480 Speaker 1: was concerned with had to do with things like the 1220 01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,400 Speaker 1: public view of sexuality and marriage. So to the old 1221 01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:43,960 Speaker 1: religious right. The really primary points of cultural division came about, 1222 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, questions of whether or not gay people could 1223 01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,240 Speaker 1: get married, whether or not sort of homosexuality should be 1224 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,600 Speaker 1: mainstreamed in the public view. And then of course to 1225 01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,200 Speaker 1: just the role of religion in public life and issues 1226 01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,320 Speaker 1: like school prayer and abortion of course is obviously an 1227 01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,320 Speaker 1: issue that is relevant to this as well. Culture war conservatism, 1228 01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,320 Speaker 1: again being driven by folks who don't necessarily go to church, 1229 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:08,080 Speaker 1: is much more interested with questions of national identity, sort 1230 01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:12,200 Speaker 1: of a secular patriotism, racialism, pushing back against sort of 1231 01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,520 Speaker 1: left wing cultural ideology in the classroom right. It's this 1232 01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,480 Speaker 1: cultural conservatism that probably appeals to a lot of the 1233 01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,439 Speaker 1: old religious right voters, but is framed in much more 1234 01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:26,200 Speaker 1: secular terms and is less concerned with the specifically religious 1235 01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:30,120 Speaker 1: and theological dimensions of our cultural debates and more just 1236 01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:34,480 Speaker 1: with defending American voters of a variety of different racial 1237 01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:38,600 Speaker 1: and religious backgrounds who feel alienated from the modern cultural left, 1238 01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,080 Speaker 1: which is I think again the energy that is driving 1239 01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,080 Speaker 1: the Republican Party to day. Let me get personal for 1240 01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,840 Speaker 1: a second. I'm curious what you think about this dynamic 1241 01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,120 Speaker 1: you're describing because I think something that folks don't know, 1242 01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:53,520 Speaker 1: especially if they don't know you, is that you're a 1243 01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:57,040 Speaker 1: traditional social conservative. So I think what your piece did 1244 01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:58,760 Speaker 1: a great job of doing, and why I don't feel 1245 01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:00,520 Speaker 1: like a shill bringing you on the top talk about it, 1246 01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:04,520 Speaker 1: is you're diagnosing a dynamic that various folks have to 1247 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,800 Speaker 1: deal with, whether they like it or not. So if 1248 01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,280 Speaker 1: you are a traditional social conservative, it's not like this 1249 01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,640 Speaker 1: rise of this new social conservatism is inherently going to 1250 01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:15,240 Speaker 1: be a pure win for you. I still know of 1251 01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:17,240 Speaker 1: conservatives who do not think. You know, I just had 1252 01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,320 Speaker 1: you Ramazone on the Realignment a few weeks ago, Like 1253 01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:22,360 Speaker 1: his whole thing is he thinks the school prayer issue 1254 01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,640 Speaker 1: should not be dead, and he has a whole bit there. So, like, 1255 01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,160 Speaker 1: just talk about how you feel about this personally as 1256 01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:31,479 Speaker 1: a person who comes from that traditional conservative space. Yeah. 1257 01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,800 Speaker 1: I appreciate you sort of teasing out that aspect of 1258 01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:36,920 Speaker 1: the essay, because what I was trying to do in 1259 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,440 Speaker 1: the essay was basically give a descriptive analysis of what 1260 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,400 Speaker 1: I think is happening rather than a normative analysis of 1261 01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,800 Speaker 1: what I think should be happening in an ideal world. 1262 01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:48,080 Speaker 1: Because you're right. I am in many ways a sort 1263 01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,360 Speaker 1: of traditional old school social conservative, and I have really 1264 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,720 Speaker 1: mixed feelings about what's happening on the right today. There 1265 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:56,840 Speaker 1: are aspects of the essay where I point out that 1266 01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,880 Speaker 1: a lot of the new cultural conservatism, what people call 1267 01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,480 Speaker 1: our stool conservatism. Of course your viewers will be familiar 1268 01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,520 Speaker 1: with that, exemplified by people like Dave Portnoy, right, I mean, 1269 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:07,680 Speaker 1: there are aspects of that that make a lot of 1270 01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:10,480 Speaker 1: traditional social conservatives really uncomfortable. I mean, there is this 1271 01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:13,560 Speaker 1: famous clip of the importantly after the row leak, saying 1272 01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,200 Speaker 1: that if Republicans tried to ban abortion, he's going to 1273 01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:18,920 Speaker 1: become a democrat. I mean, to me, as an ardent prolifer, 1274 01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,000 Speaker 1: that's unacceptable. Right. So for the sort of old school 1275 01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,800 Speaker 1: traditional social conservatives, this new energy, on the one hand, 1276 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:31,040 Speaker 1: presents this massive, unexpected political opportunity to build a sort 1277 01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:34,160 Speaker 1: of center right cultural conservative coalition that is capable of 1278 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,040 Speaker 1: delivering on some of our priorities. But it also requires 1279 01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:39,320 Speaker 1: sharing a coalition with a lot of figures that I 1280 01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:44,000 Speaker 1: think we might find unsavory on an ideological level, and 1281 01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:46,240 Speaker 1: that I think is a loss. And it also indicates 1282 01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,840 Speaker 1: just this broader phenomenon of declining religiosity in America, which 1283 01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:51,680 Speaker 1: I also think is a reason to be concerned. So 1284 01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,520 Speaker 1: I am not necessarily on the whole celebrating this development, 1285 01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,160 Speaker 1: but I am engaging with the fact that it's happening 1286 01:05:58,160 --> 01:05:59,520 Speaker 1: and trying to sort of make sense of it. And 1287 01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:01,920 Speaker 1: that was the point. Yes, Yeah, And I also like 1288 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,240 Speaker 1: your use of the term coalitions because it gets to 1289 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,520 Speaker 1: what politics actually. It's easy to just say that, oh 1290 01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,040 Speaker 1: and this is me shouting out the breaking points, listener. Oh, 1291 01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,520 Speaker 1: there's the establishment, there's the mainstream, there's the Democrats, as 1292 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:20,320 Speaker 1: the Republicans. But all these groups are combinations of different individuals, institutions, 1293 01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:24,280 Speaker 1: different groups. So the coalition you're describing as a Republican 1294 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:29,919 Speaker 1: party a conservative movement that has hawks, it has social conservatives, 1295 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,560 Speaker 1: it has barsal conservatives. Once again, like it or not, 1296 01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,680 Speaker 1: where are the tensions and where do you think the 1297 01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,160 Speaker 1: tensions are going to start playing out, especially as we 1298 01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:40,560 Speaker 1: move outwards. Because I'm a little less interested in things 1299 01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:42,560 Speaker 1: leading up to the midterms. It's kind of funny. I 1300 01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,880 Speaker 1: was getting an argument of some of my social conservative 1301 01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:46,919 Speaker 1: friends where they were saying, I don't think the WIVI 1302 01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,040 Speaker 1: wad overturn is going to affect the twenty twenty two midterms, 1303 01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:51,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, look, I agree with you, but 1304 01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:54,280 Speaker 1: I think the real testing point will be in twenty 1305 01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:59,360 Speaker 1: twenty five when a Republican governor votes or says something 1306 01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,920 Speaker 1: about how I think abortion rights should actually operate in 1307 01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,520 Speaker 1: a state. You know, once again, think back to two 1308 01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:08,120 Speaker 1: thousand and six Terry Schivo that you know, very specific, 1309 01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:12,440 Speaker 1: very Florida decision over end of life and euthanasia and 1310 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:16,200 Speaker 1: those different issues. That was a very specific, literally familiar issue, 1311 01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,960 Speaker 1: but that issue was a defining moment of the politics 1312 01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,320 Speaker 1: of the country then, So I think you shouldn't focus 1313 01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,880 Speaker 1: on court decision, you should focus on practical effects and 1314 01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:26,640 Speaker 1: once again, how Jeb Bush as governor of Florida responded 1315 01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:28,520 Speaker 1: to it. So I'm just curious how you think about 1316 01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:32,080 Speaker 1: this dynamic overall, right, And I think you're absolutely right, Marshall. 1317 01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,919 Speaker 1: I think more or less twenty twenty two is baked 1318 01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,000 Speaker 1: into the cake. You might see some movement on the margins, 1319 01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:39,360 Speaker 1: but really the question is going to be when Republicans 1320 01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,960 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four and beyond have to start answering 1321 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,560 Speaker 1: really difficult questions that they didn't have to answer before 1322 01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:47,000 Speaker 1: Roe v waves overturned because before they could just wave 1323 01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,200 Speaker 1: their hands and say, well, I'm against Rob Wade, and 1324 01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:51,600 Speaker 1: now they have to actually explain in detail what does 1325 01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:53,680 Speaker 1: that mean? Right? Are we talking about a fifteen week ban, 1326 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:55,560 Speaker 1: are we talking about a heartbeat ban? Are we talking 1327 01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:58,440 Speaker 1: about exceptions for rapid incests? Right? All these more difficult 1328 01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,560 Speaker 1: questions that required detail they answers. That's something that they're 1329 01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:04,440 Speaker 1: going to be struggling with, particularly when it comes to 1330 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:06,960 Speaker 1: appealing to these sort of more sort of socially moderate 1331 01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:11,200 Speaker 1: barstool conservatives who might have a real problem with quote 1332 01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:14,320 Speaker 1: unquote wokeness right with you know, CRT and gender ideology 1333 01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,559 Speaker 1: in schools. They're uncomfortable with transgender athletes, right, all these 1334 01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,800 Speaker 1: sort of new cultural war issues, but are probably pro choice, right. 1335 01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:22,439 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of them probably agree with Dave 1336 01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:26,080 Speaker 1: Portnoy and my sort of suspicion. And this was something 1337 01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:28,439 Speaker 1: that I was attention that I was teasing out at 1338 01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,839 Speaker 1: the end of the piece, was that on something like abortion, 1339 01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:33,960 Speaker 1: I think a lot of these these sort of center 1340 01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,680 Speaker 1: right voters would probably be more or less comfortable as 1341 01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,280 Speaker 1: something like what Ron de Santis signed Florida, which is 1342 01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:42,559 Speaker 1: a fifteen weekman, which more or less resembles what most 1343 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:45,040 Speaker 1: of the rest of the West has, with some exceptions. 1344 01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:47,560 Speaker 1: But if you start talking about a six weekman or 1345 01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,080 Speaker 1: a flat out ban or rape and incest exceptions, I 1346 01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:51,519 Speaker 1: think that's going to make a lot of these voters 1347 01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:55,160 Speaker 1: really uncomfortable, let alone sort of old religious right priorities around, 1348 01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, same sex marriage and homosexuality, which I think 1349 01:08:57,479 --> 01:08:59,360 Speaker 1: is just not even on the table for these voters. 1350 01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,120 Speaker 1: So both sides of this spectrum are going to have 1351 01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,240 Speaker 1: to reckon with these tensions. And you don't have to 1352 01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:08,439 Speaker 1: resolve all of the internal tensions to have a functional coalition, 1353 01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:11,599 Speaker 1: because every political coalition has its fair share of tensions. 1354 01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:14,560 Speaker 1: But there are going to be have to be sacrifices 1355 01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:16,320 Speaker 1: on both sides, and I don't think either side is 1356 01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:19,920 Speaker 1: going to necessarily be entirely happy with them. You know. 1357 01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:21,680 Speaker 1: In my last bit here is I'm curious, how do 1358 01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:25,559 Speaker 1: you think Democrats are going to respond to this dynamic, 1359 01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:29,200 Speaker 1: because once again Dave portnoyin look, I actually I admire 1360 01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:33,680 Speaker 1: how honest Dave was about his underlying politics. I think 1361 01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:36,680 Speaker 1: it's very tough for folks who operate in those sort 1362 01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,200 Speaker 1: of ambiguous political spaces, just to be that directive, like, look, 1363 01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:44,080 Speaker 1: I'm a pro choice first voter. Yes, I probably think 1364 01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:46,800 Speaker 1: free speech is cringe. Yes, he's probably not a fan 1365 01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,839 Speaker 1: of Taylor Lorenz, but all that aside, I'm voting on abortion. 1366 01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:51,200 Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of people like that, 1367 01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,439 Speaker 1: especially in media, because it's not particularly hip to identify 1368 01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:56,880 Speaker 1: off Joe Biden's Democratic Party right now who don't feel 1369 01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,639 Speaker 1: lay but you know, Dave was honest, that's a voting luck, right, 1370 01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:02,720 Speaker 1: that's the dynamic there. So, so how do you think 1371 01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:06,040 Speaker 1: Democrats how do you think they should put on your 1372 01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:08,840 Speaker 1: pure political analysis hat, and how do you think they 1373 01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,800 Speaker 1: are going to respond over the short and long term? Right? Well, 1374 01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:14,200 Speaker 1: I think those are two very fundamentally different questions, because 1375 01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:17,000 Speaker 1: if Democrats were smart and they were sort of capable 1376 01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,120 Speaker 1: of just assessing the scene as it is, they would 1377 01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,200 Speaker 1: pivot back to the sort of Bill Clinton line on 1378 01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:25,080 Speaker 1: cultural issues, which was where all the sort of Dave 1379 01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,800 Speaker 1: Portnoy voters were very comfortable with the Democratic Party back then. Right, 1380 01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:31,920 Speaker 1: I mean this new influx of sort of center right 1381 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,760 Speaker 1: on culture, but more moderate on the sort of old 1382 01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,600 Speaker 1: school social issues. Voters who are flooding into the Republican 1383 01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:41,320 Speaker 1: Party are doing so from the Democratic Coalition. These are 1384 01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:44,679 Speaker 1: a lot of these guys are traditional Democratic voters who 1385 01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:46,960 Speaker 1: used to see the old religious right as the sort 1386 01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:50,840 Speaker 1: of puritanical school marm of American life which wanted to 1387 01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:52,920 Speaker 1: come into the bedroom and tell you what to do 1388 01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,040 Speaker 1: with porn, et cetera, et cetera. And now that the 1389 01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,760 Speaker 1: left is the one sort of vigorously enforcing these social orthodoxies, 1390 01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:01,760 Speaker 1: they're alienated from it and they're looking for an alternative 1391 01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:05,080 Speaker 1: in the Republican Party. But again, with issues like Roby Wade, 1392 01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:08,280 Speaker 1: there is an opportunity for Democrats to win some of 1393 01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:10,760 Speaker 1: those voters back, but they have to sort of be 1394 01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:13,680 Speaker 1: able to distance themselves from the cultural radicalism of their 1395 01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:15,559 Speaker 1: left flank. And I just don't think the party right 1396 01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:19,200 Speaker 1: now is institutionally positioned to do that. They are entirely 1397 01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,720 Speaker 1: captured by powerful donors who very much are of this 1398 01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:26,360 Speaker 1: sort of elite cultural worldview, a powerful corporate media which 1399 01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:29,280 Speaker 1: is very much captured by that worldview, and you know 1400 01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,720 Speaker 1: sort of institutions like teacher unions which are completely uninterested 1401 01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:36,280 Speaker 1: in talking about the radicalization of the American public school curriculum. 1402 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:40,080 Speaker 1: So those sort of institutional issues for the Democratic Party 1403 01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:43,000 Speaker 1: makes it very, very difficult for them to pivot on 1404 01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:46,400 Speaker 1: cultural issues, which is why you've seen moderate Democrats break 1405 01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:48,680 Speaker 1: with the sort of progressive wing of their party on 1406 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:52,320 Speaker 1: economic issues like spending and regulation, but the entire party 1407 01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:55,400 Speaker 1: is basically on lockstep on cultural issues. So again, the 1408 01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:57,799 Speaker 1: should and the will, I think are two different questions. 1409 01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,360 Speaker 1: They should pivot to the right on culture and become 1410 01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:03,719 Speaker 1: sort of Bill Clinton cultural centrists and emphasize the popular 1411 01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:06,080 Speaker 1: economic parts of their program, but I don't think that 1412 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,080 Speaker 1: they're going to do. One last question, which I think 1413 01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,000 Speaker 1: is probably my only main bit of once again analytical 1414 01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:15,439 Speaker 1: pushback on your piece. What separate the like exact like 1415 01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:21,599 Speaker 1: policy bits there? How away? Has the old religious right 1416 01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,160 Speaker 1: really gone? You know, as you were just talking about porn, 1417 01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:25,840 Speaker 1: I thought, well, you know, JD. Vance, it was just 1418 01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:28,400 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to say unearthed because that 1419 01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:30,599 Speaker 1: suggests he was hiding this view. But because he gave 1420 01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:32,640 Speaker 1: an interview like last year he's the Republican you know, 1421 01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,720 Speaker 1: Senate nominee for Ohio, he talked about banning porn. So 1422 01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:40,080 Speaker 1: I think what a smart center left person would probably say, 1423 01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:43,679 Speaker 1: is look Nate, you know or audience, I get that, 1424 01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, the woke stuck his cringe. It's all going 1425 01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,439 Speaker 1: too far, Like we as a Democratic Party need to 1426 01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:50,680 Speaker 1: be much more like Bill Clinton. You're starting to kind 1427 01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:52,840 Speaker 1: of see people like Reuben Diego start to like kind 1428 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,720 Speaker 1: of do this with his pushback against the use of 1429 01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,400 Speaker 1: the word LATINX. But guys like don't forget all this, 1430 01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,599 Speaker 1: like Barstol, conservatism is basically just a trojan horse. They're 1431 01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:03,760 Speaker 1: coming in and talking about CRT, which may make you uncomfortable. 1432 01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:06,200 Speaker 1: They're coming in talking about identity. But at the end 1433 01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:08,040 Speaker 1: of the day, I seen with the JD quote, it's 1434 01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,400 Speaker 1: all gonna be about banning port again. Oh and by 1435 01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:13,160 Speaker 1: the way, the gay marriage pivot didn't actually happen. What 1436 01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:16,160 Speaker 1: actually happened was they made a tactical and strategic retreat 1437 01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:18,559 Speaker 1: and now that they see the Olverton window expanding, they're 1438 01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:21,040 Speaker 1: going to be aggressive again. So what would you say 1439 01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:24,479 Speaker 1: to that bit of pushback that it's all basically trojan horse. Yeah, 1440 01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,000 Speaker 1: I think there's sort of two separate questions there, the 1441 01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,800 Speaker 1: first one about the trojan horse question and the sort 1442 01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:31,680 Speaker 1: of hysteria that you've heard from some corners that left 1443 01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:33,519 Speaker 1: about the fact that Roby Wade is going to mean 1444 01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:35,519 Speaker 1: that same sex marriage is going to be overturned and 1445 01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:37,479 Speaker 1: they're going to be banning birth control, et cetera, et cetera. 1446 01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,240 Speaker 1: I don't buy that, right, I really don't think politically 1447 01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,920 Speaker 1: the Republican Party. You know, fifty five percent of Republican 1448 01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:45,000 Speaker 1: voters now it created the same sex marriage. They would 1449 01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,080 Speaker 1: just be political suicide for them to actually try to 1450 01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:50,880 Speaker 1: make that a part of their agenda. And there are 1451 01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:53,120 Speaker 1: different issues today that they're fighting about, right, Like the 1452 01:13:53,160 --> 01:13:57,439 Speaker 1: barstool conservative issue set is substantively different than the old 1453 01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:01,360 Speaker 1: religious right issue set. These are two different kinds of conservatism. 1454 01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:04,560 Speaker 1: So it's not I think conflating the two is not 1455 01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,479 Speaker 1: the right way to think about it. But it is true, 1456 01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,679 Speaker 1: of course that Christian conservatism is still a powerful force 1457 01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:12,639 Speaker 1: in the Republican Party and will be for the rest 1458 01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:14,880 Speaker 1: of my lifetime. Right, I mean, Christian voters in the 1459 01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,800 Speaker 1: Bible Belt are a cornerstone of the Republican electorate. And 1460 01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:21,040 Speaker 1: there's a reason that someone like Donald Trump, who was 1461 01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:23,479 Speaker 1: a lifelong pro choicer and not exactly a sort of 1462 01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:27,320 Speaker 1: bastion of Christian sexual morality, felt the need to really 1463 01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:31,720 Speaker 1: make a serious outreach to evangelical conservative voters because he 1464 01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:36,120 Speaker 1: knew that they were a fundamental part of his voter base, 1465 01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,720 Speaker 1: and he could break with party orthodoxy on trade and 1466 01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,519 Speaker 1: spending and welfare and immigration, but if he broke with 1467 01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:46,120 Speaker 1: party orthodoxy on abortion, for example, he'd be dead. So 1468 01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:49,439 Speaker 1: that is an important part of the Republican Party and 1469 01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:51,439 Speaker 1: it will be for some time to come. So I'm 1470 01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:54,240 Speaker 1: not trying to say that this doesn't exist anymore or 1471 01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,519 Speaker 1: won't play a powerful role in American politics going forward. 1472 01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:01,599 Speaker 1: I'm pointing out that it's declining, and it also doesn't 1473 01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,639 Speaker 1: have the same sort of monopoly over the Republican Party 1474 01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:08,920 Speaker 1: cultural agenda as it did thirty years ago. Well said, 1475 01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:11,880 Speaker 1: I learned a lot of this episode, Nate, most importantly, 1476 01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:13,920 Speaker 1: to not wear a white shirt when I have a 1477 01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,400 Speaker 1: fake background. You're going to people who are still here 1478 01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,160 Speaker 1: with all interview. Yes, don't coming for the poor outfitting 1479 01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:20,920 Speaker 1: choice been o. This is this is a great piece. 1480 01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:23,600 Speaker 1: We'll make sure it's linked in the comments. And I 1481 01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,280 Speaker 1: also suggest that folks check out the rest of Nate's 1482 01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:28,200 Speaker 1: work because, once again, like the part of the segment 1483 01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,840 Speaker 1: isn't for to get everyone to cree with you on 1484 01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,720 Speaker 1: your specific policy ends. It's more just this idea of 1485 01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:36,479 Speaker 1: I think this is really good analysis of dynamics that 1486 01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,559 Speaker 1: are coming into play, and because they're new dynamics, it's 1487 01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:41,679 Speaker 1: going to be difficult to sort through without being rigoroused. 1488 01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:43,880 Speaker 1: So thanks for coming on the show again. Join us 1489 01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,720 Speaker 1: now for our weekly partnership segment with the lever is 1490 01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:50,320 Speaker 1: a reporter at that wonderful outlet, Matthew Cunningham Cook. Great 1491 01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:53,000 Speaker 1: to see you, Matthew. Thanks for having me on Crystal 1492 01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:56,960 Speaker 1: Our pleasure, Our pleasure. So this is a bombshell that 1493 01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:00,320 Speaker 1: you dropped here, got a lot of pickup. I'm glad 1494 01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:02,200 Speaker 1: we're getting the opportunity to covered as well. Go ahead 1495 01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:06,519 Speaker 1: and put this up on the screen. So Biden hikes 1496 01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:11,840 Speaker 1: Medicare prices and funnels profits to private insurers. The largest 1497 01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,240 Speaker 1: ever Medicare premium increase will pad the pockets of insurance 1498 01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:20,040 Speaker 1: executives who donated millions to the president's election campaign. Matthew, 1499 01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,639 Speaker 1: there are actually a lot of layers to the story, 1500 01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,880 Speaker 1: and there's a significant backstory here also regarding sort of 1501 01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:28,719 Speaker 1: FDA corruption and the approval of a drug, very expensive 1502 01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:31,880 Speaker 1: drug for Alzheimer's that doesn't actually really seem to work. 1503 01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:34,839 Speaker 1: Can you take us from the beginning of the story 1504 01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:38,120 Speaker 1: to how we end up with this largest ever Medicare 1505 01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:42,599 Speaker 1: price hike? Yeah, I mean, so it starts. I mean 1506 01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,360 Speaker 1: there's a bigger story where it's you know, we've seen 1507 01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,960 Speaker 1: for the last fifty years, we've seen this creeping privatization 1508 01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:53,559 Speaker 1: of Medicare, where the idea is that even though Medicare 1509 01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:55,840 Speaker 1: is set up a system as a system to get 1510 01:16:55,840 --> 01:17:00,439 Speaker 1: insurers out of the equation, starting under Nixon and agressively 1511 01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:04,960 Speaker 1: expanded under every president, this idea that hey, well maybe 1512 01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:08,519 Speaker 1: insurers could do a good job. Maybe you know, great 1513 01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:11,760 Speaker 1: Grandma is using too much, going to the doctor too much, 1514 01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:14,799 Speaker 1: you know, and insurance could help us solve that problem. 1515 01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:18,160 Speaker 1: So that's the bigger backstory. But since Biden came into 1516 01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:23,080 Speaker 1: office in June twenty twenty one, his FDA, over the 1517 01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:27,799 Speaker 1: recommendations of a scientific panel, approved this incredibly expensive drug 1518 01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:33,840 Speaker 1: add you Helm that was produced by Biogen, that was 1519 01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:36,840 Speaker 1: a drug that was really just was found to have 1520 01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:42,599 Speaker 1: not worked, but because of its enormous cost and because 1521 01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:47,040 Speaker 1: of poor modeling by CMS actuaries, and potential conflicts of 1522 01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:52,919 Speaker 1: interest there. The Biden CMS used the drug to justify 1523 01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:58,040 Speaker 1: a world historic price increase for Medicare, where most people 1524 01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:01,920 Speaker 1: don't know that Medicare recis Hippiens do pay premiums. They're 1525 01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:06,120 Speaker 1: directly debited out of their Social Security check. And it 1526 01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:09,400 Speaker 1: went up by twenty dollars a month. So that's a 1527 01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:13,160 Speaker 1: fourteen point five percent increase in just one year. Again, 1528 01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:19,040 Speaker 1: you know, all this media discussion about inflation will really 1529 01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:22,600 Speaker 1: hone in on workers' wages, but won't talk about the 1530 01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:26,439 Speaker 1: enormous growth in health care costs, with this Medicare premium 1531 01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:31,040 Speaker 1: increase being kind of the sterling example of that. So 1532 01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:38,080 Speaker 1: it was approved, caused a massive premium increase, then Biogen 1533 01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:40,679 Speaker 1: got a bunch of flack lowered the price of the drug. 1534 01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:43,439 Speaker 1: Then CMS got a bunch of flacks said that they 1535 01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:47,439 Speaker 1: would only cover the drug under very specific circumstances, and 1536 01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:51,880 Speaker 1: so Javier Bassera directed CMS to consider, well, maybe we 1537 01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:57,280 Speaker 1: should lower the premium increase given the problems we've found 1538 01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:02,120 Speaker 1: with Aduhilm, and ultimately they decided not to lower the 1539 01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:07,080 Speaker 1: premium increase, even though it was based on assumptions that 1540 01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:10,400 Speaker 1: were totally wrong totally faulty, totally wrong. You know, I 1541 01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:13,960 Speaker 1: actually remember reading about this drug in depth. I think 1542 01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:16,320 Speaker 1: the New York Times did a big story about it 1543 01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:19,360 Speaker 1: a while back, and there were very real and legitimate 1544 01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:22,240 Speaker 1: questions about whether there was a sort of conflict of 1545 01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:26,400 Speaker 1: interest or corruption issue here that led to the drugs approval, because, 1546 01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:29,080 Speaker 1: as you point out, not only does the research not 1547 01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:33,640 Speaker 1: really show that the drug is particularly effective for Alzheimer's, 1548 01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:36,120 Speaker 1: but it shows it can have dangers as well. And 1549 01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:38,040 Speaker 1: then you add the expense on top of it. I 1550 01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:42,040 Speaker 1: never would have imagined reading that piece though, that one 1551 01:19:42,080 --> 01:19:46,040 Speaker 1: of the implications would be a massive premium hike for 1552 01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:49,719 Speaker 1: all seniors who are dependent on Medicare. So you see 1553 01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:54,080 Speaker 1: this just ripple effect of how potential possible government corruption 1554 01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:58,360 Speaker 1: leads to hurting you in your pocketbook. And then the 1555 01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,920 Speaker 1: other piece of this that I just can't I literally 1556 01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:06,200 Speaker 1: can't understand is the political part. Like you correct me 1557 01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:09,280 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. The administration could decide, you know what, 1558 01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,800 Speaker 1: we're not going to hike premiums on seniors right before 1559 01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,640 Speaker 1: the midterm election, and they decided not to do that, 1560 01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:17,960 Speaker 1: Like yes, what I mean really, like what is the 1561 01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:22,559 Speaker 1: thinking that goes into that decision. I mean, I've often 1562 01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:31,920 Speaker 1: said Democrats have a kink for losing, you know, but 1563 01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:35,200 Speaker 1: I really do think that that does play into this here. 1564 01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think most of all is kind of 1565 01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, we see, you know, cabinet secretaries, senior CMAS 1566 01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:48,040 Speaker 1: officials go to making extraordinary amounts of money when they 1567 01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:51,519 Speaker 1: leave the administration, and so I think that the problem 1568 01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:55,839 Speaker 1: here is that top biding administration officials are more interested 1569 01:20:55,880 --> 01:21:01,200 Speaker 1: in their next job than actually stop Republicans. And so, 1570 01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:03,439 Speaker 1: I mean you can see this with Jen Saki, right, 1571 01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, she was you know, negotiating her job with 1572 01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:12,120 Speaker 1: MSNBC while she was still press secretary. I think that 1573 01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:18,120 Speaker 1: that really plays I think that in DC, there's people 1574 01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:21,639 Speaker 1: are much more interested in having an Olympic sized swimming 1575 01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:26,160 Speaker 1: pool than winning. I think that that's what their definition 1576 01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:29,200 Speaker 1: of winning really is. It's one big club. So that, 1577 01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,439 Speaker 1: to me, I think is kind of the real big 1578 01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:35,639 Speaker 1: issue here is that they're they're not actually interested in winning, 1579 01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:39,040 Speaker 1: because if they were, then they wouldn't be doing things 1580 01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:43,599 Speaker 1: that materially make the lives of millions of seniors worse. 1581 01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:47,920 Speaker 1: The other piece of this, Matthew, is a media story 1582 01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:50,800 Speaker 1: which is I'm so grateful to you guys for the 1583 01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:54,519 Speaker 1: reporting that you all do, and you specifically, I think, 1584 01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:58,240 Speaker 1: have broken already a number of really important stories. This 1585 01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:01,160 Speaker 1: got a lot of traction on line, there was clearly 1586 01:22:01,200 --> 01:22:03,360 Speaker 1: a lot of public interest. It was covered in a 1587 01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:07,200 Speaker 1: lot of independent outlets like our own, but I haven't 1588 01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:11,679 Speaker 1: seen it picked up by the mainstream press. When again, 1589 01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:13,479 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a really this is a bread 1590 01:22:13,479 --> 01:22:15,799 Speaker 1: and butter issue. It's going to have a massive impact 1591 01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:18,040 Speaker 1: on a whole number of people, that illustrates a number 1592 01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:20,840 Speaker 1: of core issues here in DC, and there seems to 1593 01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:23,920 Speaker 1: be very little curiosity about it. What do you attribute 1594 01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:28,360 Speaker 1: that to? Yeah, I mean, I mean I was talking 1595 01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:31,040 Speaker 1: on our podcast about this that when I started out 1596 01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:36,400 Speaker 1: doing investigative reporting almost a decade ago, also with David, 1597 01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:38,120 Speaker 1: I mean, we've been working together off and on for 1598 01:22:38,160 --> 01:22:40,920 Speaker 1: a long time. You know, we used to have stories 1599 01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:43,280 Speaker 1: that would get a lot more pick up in the 1600 01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:50,240 Speaker 1: mainstream press, a lot more mainstream reporters reporting out what 1601 01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:54,519 Speaker 1: we were doing, and now that seems to have not happened, 1602 01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:58,400 Speaker 1: to just not happen anymore. And I think that what 1603 01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:01,960 Speaker 1: we do here at the lever that really folks are 1604 01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:06,600 Speaker 1: not interested in replicating is kind of hard hitting economic 1605 01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:10,360 Speaker 1: reporting that speaks to the pocketbook issues of millions of 1606 01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:21,839 Speaker 1: Americans and avoids kind of culture war dislocations in favor 1607 01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:28,040 Speaker 1: of what's what's really impacting you know, our elders, you know, 1608 01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:33,439 Speaker 1: people who have worked their entire lives, and that to 1609 01:23:33,479 --> 01:23:36,080 Speaker 1: me is a big tragedy because again, you know, the 1610 01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:38,120 Speaker 1: other flip side of this is that so in the 1611 01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:42,720 Speaker 1: midst of this massive premium increase, you also see in 1612 01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:46,479 Speaker 1: April an eight point five percent increase in the payments 1613 01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:52,479 Speaker 1: to privatize Medicare advantage plans. So again, meanwhile, while there's 1614 01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:55,679 Speaker 1: tons of doctors who are saying that they can barely 1615 01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:59,960 Speaker 1: make ends meets and keep their you know, private off 1616 01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:06,280 Speaker 1: us is open due to Medicare payments issues, instead, they're 1617 01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:11,040 Speaker 1: now engaging in a massive giveaway to insurers that run 1618 01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:16,320 Speaker 1: Medicare advantage plans. So it's really a very simple story, 1619 01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, the poor are getting poorer and 1620 01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:22,400 Speaker 1: the rich are getting richer. And I think that the 1621 01:24:22,439 --> 01:24:26,080 Speaker 1: story did well because it speaks to what every American 1622 01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,080 Speaker 1: can really witness with their own eyes, which is that 1623 01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:37,439 Speaker 1: economic inequality, even this year is massively accelerating and creating 1624 01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:46,360 Speaker 1: enormous amounts of social problems and dislocation, and the only 1625 01:24:46,840 --> 01:24:51,680 Speaker 1: kind of response offered to it by the Democratic Party 1626 01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:59,280 Speaker 1: is more culture war stuff and not any type of real, 1627 01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:05,680 Speaker 1: dedicated program to address the pocketbook needs of Americans. I 1628 01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:08,240 Speaker 1: think that is all very well said. As always, we're 1629 01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:11,320 Speaker 1: extremely grateful for your reporting and for the Lever for existing, 1630 01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:14,320 Speaker 1: and we always recommend to our viewers that you, guys, 1631 01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:16,320 Speaker 1: if you're able, I know things are really tough for 1632 01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:18,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people, but if you are able to 1633 01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:21,080 Speaker 1: do it, go and subscribe to the Lever, because they 1634 01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:25,719 Speaker 1: are filling a need that is just extraordinarily important within 1635 01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:29,080 Speaker 1: our media realm. So Matthew, thank you for the great reporting. Guys, 1636 01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:31,160 Speaker 1: go check out more of their work, and we will 1637 01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:33,680 Speaker 1: see you again next week. Thank you, Matthew, thanks so 1638 01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:39,720 Speaker 1: much for having me. Kristl Hi. I'm Maximilian Alvarez. I'm 1639 01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:42,040 Speaker 1: the editor in chief of the Real News Network and 1640 01:25:42,120 --> 01:25:45,439 Speaker 1: hosts of the podcast Working People and this is the 1641 01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:48,960 Speaker 1: Art of class War on Breaking Points. I want to 1642 01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:51,960 Speaker 1: start today's segment by thanking all of you watching for 1643 01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:56,679 Speaker 1: being so welcoming and encouraging as we've gotten this recurring 1644 01:25:56,720 --> 01:25:59,280 Speaker 1: series off the ground, and I want to thank you 1645 01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:03,240 Speaker 1: for all your thoughtful and constructive engagement with the segments 1646 01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:05,920 Speaker 1: that I've put out so far. It really does mean 1647 01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:07,400 Speaker 1: a lot to me, and I think it's a really 1648 01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:10,320 Speaker 1: special thing what we're doing here, and I just wanted 1649 01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:12,160 Speaker 1: to say up top that it's an honor to be 1650 01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:16,360 Speaker 1: in this struggle with all of you together. Now, the 1651 01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:19,920 Speaker 1: last segment in this series, as you well know, ended 1652 01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:23,360 Speaker 1: up being quite a bit longer than I anticipated, So 1653 01:26:23,560 --> 01:26:26,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to make this segment shorter, and 1654 01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:29,120 Speaker 1: we're going to dive straight into it because what we 1655 01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:34,000 Speaker 1: are talking about today has become so pervasive, so widespread, 1656 01:26:34,520 --> 01:26:38,160 Speaker 1: and so commonly accepted as normal that few of us 1657 01:26:38,200 --> 01:26:42,280 Speaker 1: can even imagine what an alternative would look like. We're 1658 01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:47,439 Speaker 1: talking today about bosses and managers interfering with employees legally 1659 01:26:47,560 --> 01:26:53,720 Speaker 1: protected rights. Specifically, we're talking about bosses and managers retaliating 1660 01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:58,639 Speaker 1: against workers for exercising their right by engaging in quote 1661 01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:03,000 Speaker 1: protected activity. So first let's start big, and then we're 1662 01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:06,759 Speaker 1: going to winnow down. So there are actually many different 1663 01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:09,840 Speaker 1: forms of protected activity when it comes to the workplace, 1664 01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:14,920 Speaker 1: and protected activities are defined as such because they are 1665 01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:19,240 Speaker 1: legally protected activities that workers can engage in without fear 1666 01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:23,880 Speaker 1: of retaliation from supervisors or employers. That's what the word 1667 01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:28,000 Speaker 1: retaliation legally means in this case. I mean, bosses and 1668 01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:31,519 Speaker 1: managers love telling workers what they can and can't do 1669 01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:34,599 Speaker 1: on the job, and it often feels like they have 1670 01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:38,960 Speaker 1: just complete, unchecked power to do whatever they want and 1671 01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:41,200 Speaker 1: that they don't have to follow any of the same 1672 01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:45,120 Speaker 1: rules that we do. And you know, just being honest, 1673 01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:47,880 Speaker 1: for most of my life, I'm sure as hell didn't 1674 01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:50,880 Speaker 1: know that there were actually a whole lot of things 1675 01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:54,559 Speaker 1: that they can't do, but they do it anyway because 1676 01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:58,880 Speaker 1: they can get away with it. Protected activities, though, are 1677 01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:03,760 Speaker 1: outlined in a range of federal statutes, including the Americans 1678 01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:08,640 Speaker 1: with Disabilities Act, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, the 1679 01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:12,920 Speaker 1: Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act, the Fair Labor Standards Act, 1680 01:28:13,360 --> 01:28:18,240 Speaker 1: the Family Medical Leave Act, the Whistleblower Protection Act, and more. 1681 01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:25,320 Speaker 1: Exercising your equal employment opportunity rights is protected activity. It 1682 01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:30,040 Speaker 1: is illegal for employers to punish job applicants or employees 1683 01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:34,120 Speaker 1: for asserting their right to be free from employment discrimination 1684 01:28:34,720 --> 01:28:41,200 Speaker 1: and harassment. As the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission website states, quote, 1685 01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:45,719 Speaker 1: it is unlawful to retaliate against applicants or employees for 1686 01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:52,280 Speaker 1: filing or being a witness in an EEO charge complaint, investigation, 1687 01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:57,799 Speaker 1: or lawsuit, communicating without communicating with a supervisor or manager 1688 01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:04,000 Speaker 1: about employment discrimination, including harassment, answering questions during an employer 1689 01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:08,599 Speaker 1: investigation of alleged harassment, refusing to follow orders that would 1690 01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:15,479 Speaker 1: result in discrimination, resisting sexual advances or intervening to protect others, 1691 01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:21,160 Speaker 1: requesting accommodation of a disability or for a religious practice, 1692 01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:26,000 Speaker 1: or asking managers or coworkers about salary information to uncover 1693 01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:31,080 Speaker 1: potentially discriminatory wages. End quote. So, by the letter of 1694 01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:33,800 Speaker 1: the law, that's how it's supposed to work. You're not 1695 01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:37,679 Speaker 1: supposed to be able to retaliate against workers for engaging 1696 01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:41,840 Speaker 1: in those activities. Of course, we know that this is 1697 01:29:41,880 --> 01:29:44,639 Speaker 1: so often not how it works in the real world, 1698 01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:48,080 Speaker 1: and there are a whole lot of reasons why that 1699 01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:51,160 Speaker 1: is the case that we just can't get into right now, 1700 01:29:51,680 --> 01:29:55,040 Speaker 1: but you probably already know why, right But that doesn't 1701 01:29:55,080 --> 01:29:58,960 Speaker 1: mean that working people have no recourse. It is a 1702 01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:02,400 Speaker 1: pain in the ass, and it can take a long time, 1703 01:30:02,960 --> 01:30:07,040 Speaker 1: and frankly, the agencies themselves are almost all overburdened and 1704 01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:12,400 Speaker 1: underfunded and have limited enforcement power. But you can use 1705 01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:16,280 Speaker 1: agencies like the National Labor Relations Board and the Equal 1706 01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:22,320 Speaker 1: Opportunity Employment Commission to hold employers accountable for violating your rights, 1707 01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:26,080 Speaker 1: and that is an important part of this total picture, 1708 01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:31,080 Speaker 1: because if they are not held accountable, employers get used 1709 01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:35,240 Speaker 1: to feeling like they can do whatever they want, but 1710 01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:40,200 Speaker 1: they can't, and working people suffer needlessly when we resign 1711 01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:44,439 Speaker 1: ourselves to the notion that they can. And when it 1712 01:30:44,439 --> 01:30:49,080 Speaker 1: comes to retaliation, employers have largely felt that they can 1713 01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:54,640 Speaker 1: get away with anything without facing any consequences, but hopefully 1714 01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:59,720 Speaker 1: that is changing. In nineteen ninety seven, out of all 1715 01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:04,200 Speaker 1: the charges filed with the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission, twenty 1716 01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:07,560 Speaker 1: two point six percent of those charges pertain to retaliation, 1717 01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:11,880 Speaker 1: regardless of the statute the charge fell under. In twenty 1718 01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:16,759 Speaker 1: twenty one, retaliation charges comprised a whopping fifty six percent 1719 01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:21,960 Speaker 1: of all charges filed with the Commission, So retaliation, it 1720 01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:25,160 Speaker 1: would seem, is on the rise, but we can also 1721 01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:29,479 Speaker 1: see from this table that instances of people reporting employers 1722 01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:33,080 Speaker 1: for retaliation are also on the rise, and the more 1723 01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:36,160 Speaker 1: that people know their rights, the better we can know 1724 01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:40,479 Speaker 1: what to do when those rights are violated. And with 1725 01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:42,479 Speaker 1: the time that we have left, I want to focus 1726 01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:45,920 Speaker 1: on one specific area where it's really really important to 1727 01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:51,120 Speaker 1: know your rights, and that is the area of concerted activity. 1728 01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:56,120 Speaker 1: It is your legally protected right as a worker to 1729 01:31:56,240 --> 01:32:01,120 Speaker 1: engage in concerted activity without fear of retaliation from your boss. 1730 01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:06,479 Speaker 1: So what does that mean organizing? It means organizing, and 1731 01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:10,640 Speaker 1: it means taking collective action or engaging in an activity 1732 01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:14,880 Speaker 1: that can lead to collective action to address issues in 1733 01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:19,320 Speaker 1: the workplace. You have the right to act with your 1734 01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:23,519 Speaker 1: co workers to address work related issues, and that doesn't 1735 01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,400 Speaker 1: just mean organizing to form a union. It could involve 1736 01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:30,839 Speaker 1: joining with co workers to talk directly to your employer, 1737 01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:35,880 Speaker 1: to a government agency, or even to the media about 1738 01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:41,000 Speaker 1: problems in your workplace. It could involve a concerted refusal 1739 01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:46,920 Speaker 1: of unsafe working conditions. It could involve talking openly with 1740 01:32:47,040 --> 01:32:50,520 Speaker 1: one or more co workers about your wages and benefits 1741 01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:55,559 Speaker 1: or other working conditions. Managers love telling us that we 1742 01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:59,920 Speaker 1: can't discuss our wages and salaries, but they legally can 1743 01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:04,000 Speaker 1: do that because doing so infringes on your right to 1744 01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:08,400 Speaker 1: know about and address disparities in pay and wage discrimination. 1745 01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:14,720 Speaker 1: Your boss cannot discharge, discipline, or threaten you for or 1746 01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:20,240 Speaker 1: coercively question you about engaging in these protected concerted activities. 1747 01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:25,240 Speaker 1: As the National Labor Relations Board website lays out, quote, 1748 01:33:25,479 --> 01:33:29,360 Speaker 1: it is unlawful for an employer to interfere with, restrain 1749 01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:34,480 Speaker 1: or coerce employees in the exercise of their rights. For example, 1750 01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:40,120 Speaker 1: employers may not respond to a union organizing drive by threatening, interrogating, 1751 01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:44,680 Speaker 1: or spying on pro union employees, or by promising benefits 1752 01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:48,400 Speaker 1: if they forget about the union. Section seven of the 1753 01:33:48,479 --> 01:33:53,040 Speaker 1: National Labor Relations Act guarantees employees quote the right to 1754 01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:58,519 Speaker 1: self organization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to 1755 01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:02,640 Speaker 1: bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to 1756 01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:06,600 Speaker 1: engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective 1757 01:34:06,640 --> 01:34:11,519 Speaker 1: bargaining or other mutual aid or protection, as well as 1758 01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:15,040 Speaker 1: the right to quote refrain from any or all such 1759 01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:19,840 Speaker 1: activities end quote. Now I noticed some this may seem 1760 01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:22,720 Speaker 1: like a total you know, no duh, no brainer kind 1761 01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:26,360 Speaker 1: of point to make, but you'd be surprised by how 1762 01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:31,320 Speaker 1: many workers don't organize or don't engage in concerted activity 1763 01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:35,200 Speaker 1: because they are afraid of how their boss and managers 1764 01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:39,160 Speaker 1: might retaliate. And that's why it is so important to 1765 01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:43,559 Speaker 1: know that there are real, etched in stone rules about 1766 01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:48,200 Speaker 1: how they cannot retaliate against you for exercising your rights. 1767 01:34:49,320 --> 01:34:53,519 Speaker 1: And you know, I mean retaliation can take many forms. 1768 01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:58,760 Speaker 1: If bosses take action that adversely affects workers, or they 1769 01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:04,519 Speaker 1: threaten employees with adverse consequences like closing the shop, loss 1770 01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:09,160 Speaker 1: of benefits, or making working conditions worse in response to 1771 01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:14,840 Speaker 1: workers supporting unionization or engaging in union activity, that's retaliation. 1772 01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:20,360 Speaker 1: If they promise workers' additional benefits or preferable treatment, if 1773 01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:25,720 Speaker 1: they reject the union, if they interrogate you about organizing activity, 1774 01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,559 Speaker 1: or if they spy on workers who are organizing, If 1775 01:35:29,560 --> 01:35:34,320 Speaker 1: they withhold benefits or raises that were expected before talk 1776 01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:37,759 Speaker 1: of a union began, If they tell you you can't 1777 01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:44,439 Speaker 1: wear union buttons at work, that is retaliation. Yes, your 1778 01:35:44,479 --> 01:35:48,080 Speaker 1: relationship with your manager might change if you engage in 1779 01:35:48,120 --> 01:35:53,400 Speaker 1: concerted activity. They may take it personally, and sometimes that 1780 01:35:53,479 --> 01:35:56,960 Speaker 1: really can't be helped. But if they respond in a 1781 01:35:57,000 --> 01:36:01,559 Speaker 1: retaliatory way to your protected activities, they are breaking the 1782 01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:06,600 Speaker 1: law and yet bosses do it all the time. It 1783 01:36:06,720 --> 01:36:11,320 Speaker 1: is so pervasive, and it is so brazen, and it 1784 01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:14,439 Speaker 1: drives me nuts, let alone you know everyone else out 1785 01:36:14,439 --> 01:36:16,400 Speaker 1: there who is confronting this stuff on a day to 1786 01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:21,160 Speaker 1: day basis, because I mean, the path to holding companies 1787 01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:28,240 Speaker 1: meaningfully accountable is so long, arduous, time consuming, and often 1788 01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:32,719 Speaker 1: so expensive, and because so many workers can't really afford 1789 01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:36,320 Speaker 1: that and can't risk losing a paycheck, most just have 1790 01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:39,839 Speaker 1: to grin and bear it, or at most they quickly 1791 01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:44,519 Speaker 1: find another job. For bosses and the companies themselves, though, 1792 01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:49,120 Speaker 1: the benefits of retaliating against workers as a general practice 1793 01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:54,559 Speaker 1: outweigh the costs of maybe possibly getting caught and held 1794 01:36:54,600 --> 01:36:58,799 Speaker 1: legally accountable. It's really just the cost of doing business 1795 01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:02,960 Speaker 1: for them, and the cost is us and our rights. 1796 01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:07,080 Speaker 1: And when I say it's pervasive, I mean it. It 1797 01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:10,240 Speaker 1: actually dawned on me while I was preparing this segment 1798 01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:13,240 Speaker 1: that a shocking number of the worker interviews I've done 1799 01:37:13,320 --> 01:37:17,120 Speaker 1: of late and over the years center on some form 1800 01:37:17,280 --> 01:37:21,840 Speaker 1: of retaliation. Remember in our last segment when we talked 1801 01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:25,040 Speaker 1: about the iron workers at G and D Integrated LLC 1802 01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:28,680 Speaker 1: in Central Illinois. If you watch the whole interview I 1803 01:37:28,720 --> 01:37:31,000 Speaker 1: did at the Real News Network with former G and 1804 01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:34,559 Speaker 1: D employee John hog Set and Vince d. Dinado and 1805 01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:39,000 Speaker 1: Ben Scroggins to organizers with the Iron Workers' Union, you'll 1806 01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:42,720 Speaker 1: hear them detail what they allege was a concerted campaign 1807 01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:47,560 Speaker 1: of retaliatory harassment from management after a majority of workers 1808 01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:53,080 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly voted to unionize in October of twenty twenty one. 1809 01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:57,880 Speaker 1: Then on March first, twenty twenty two, in a final 1810 01:37:58,120 --> 01:38:02,880 Speaker 1: cruel act of suspected retaliation against workers for engaging in 1811 01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:07,120 Speaker 1: protected concerted activity, G and D laid off the vast 1812 01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:13,240 Speaker 1: majority of workers at the Morton, Illinois facility. Remember Evan Seyfried, 1813 01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:17,560 Speaker 1: the twenty year Ohio Kroger worker who, according to a 1814 01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:21,559 Speaker 1: lawsuit filed by the Seyfried family, tragically took his own 1815 01:38:21,640 --> 01:38:26,160 Speaker 1: life after enduring a horrific six month campaign of targeted 1816 01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:30,280 Speaker 1: bullying and harassment from his own managers. As the family 1817 01:38:30,320 --> 01:38:34,520 Speaker 1: and Evan's co workers describe it, this was a campaign 1818 01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:38,520 Speaker 1: of terror, and it was a campaign done in retaliation 1819 01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:43,840 Speaker 1: for protected activities that Evan himself engaged in, even if 1820 01:38:43,880 --> 01:38:49,400 Speaker 1: those weren't concerted organizing activities. Evan filed safety and Harassment 1821 01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:54,520 Speaker 1: complaints with Kroger HR, and he helped other employees file complaints. 1822 01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:58,800 Speaker 1: He even refused to comply with directives from a superior 1823 01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:01,840 Speaker 1: that he believed to be against the law and or 1824 01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:06,360 Speaker 1: company policy, and he was targeted for it. And the 1825 01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:10,920 Speaker 1: list just goes on and on. I mean, the path 1826 01:39:11,040 --> 01:39:15,840 Speaker 1: to the incredible Amazon labor union victory at the JFKA 1827 01:39:16,200 --> 01:39:20,559 Speaker 1: warehouse on Staten Island, in many ways, started from the 1828 01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:25,599 Speaker 1: moment that Amazon retaliated against Christian Smalls by firing him 1829 01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:29,360 Speaker 1: for speaking out about the company's COVID safety policy in 1830 01:39:29,400 --> 01:39:35,000 Speaker 1: March of twenty twenty. As companies always do, Amazon denied 1831 01:39:35,080 --> 01:39:39,200 Speaker 1: charges of retaliation. You'll seldom find a company at like 1832 01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:44,120 Speaker 1: admitting to retaliation, and Amazon found some flimsy excuse to 1833 01:39:44,320 --> 01:39:48,839 Speaker 1: justify Smalls as firing, although in April of twenty twenty, 1834 01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:51,960 Speaker 1: Amazon was famously caught with its pants down when a 1835 01:39:52,000 --> 01:39:55,800 Speaker 1: leaked memo from an internal meeting of Amazon leadership, a 1836 01:39:55,840 --> 01:40:00,320 Speaker 1: meeting that Jeff Bezos attended, showed executives hashing out their 1837 01:40:00,360 --> 01:40:03,960 Speaker 1: scheme to make a public example out of Smalls, including 1838 01:40:04,160 --> 01:40:08,320 Speaker 1: racist smears about him being quote not smart or articulate 1839 01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:13,599 Speaker 1: end quote again, Amazon claims it does not retaliate against 1840 01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:17,439 Speaker 1: workers for protected activities. But we have to square that 1841 01:40:17,920 --> 01:40:20,479 Speaker 1: with the fact that a lot of pro union workers 1842 01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:25,720 Speaker 1: and organizers have either been fired, interrogated, had their workshifts 1843 01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:31,160 Speaker 1: adjusted in seemingly punitive ways, and surveilled and been surveilled 1844 01:40:31,240 --> 01:40:35,920 Speaker 1: by the company. In January, the NLRB found merit in 1845 01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:39,360 Speaker 1: the charge that Amazon had illegally fired de Kwon Smith, 1846 01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:43,240 Speaker 1: a worker at the Staten Island complex and an Amazon 1847 01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:46,280 Speaker 1: labor union organizer who was living out of a homeless 1848 01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:49,760 Speaker 1: shelter at the time. And that's not all, not by 1849 01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:55,519 Speaker 1: a long shot. Jonathan Bailey co founded Amazonians United, a 1850 01:40:55,560 --> 01:40:59,280 Speaker 1: network of Amazon workers around the country fighting for better 1851 01:40:59,320 --> 01:41:04,080 Speaker 1: wages and working conditions. As Olivia Salon and April Glazer 1852 01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:06,960 Speaker 1: wrote for the for NBC News in March of twenty 1853 01:41:07,000 --> 01:41:11,760 Speaker 1: twenty one, quote the day after Jonathan Bailey organized a 1854 01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:16,479 Speaker 1: walkout over COVID nineteen concerns at an Amazon warehouse in Queens, 1855 01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:20,719 Speaker 1: New York, he was, he said, detained during his lunch 1856 01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:24,240 Speaker 1: break by a manager in a black camouflage vest who 1857 01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:30,160 Speaker 1: introduced himself as ex FBI. Bailey was ushered to asside 1858 01:41:30,240 --> 01:41:34,519 Speaker 1: office and interrogated for ninety minutes, according to testimony filed 1859 01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:38,759 Speaker 1: to the National Labor Relations Board. A week later, Bailey 1860 01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:42,720 Speaker 1: received a formal write up for harassment, although his managers 1861 01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:46,760 Speaker 1: would not tell him whom he had allegedly harassed nor 1862 01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:51,240 Speaker 1: what he had allegedly said or done end quote. Now, 1863 01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:56,480 Speaker 1: the NLRB found merit to that charge that Amazon's interrogation 1864 01:41:56,680 --> 01:42:00,680 Speaker 1: and attempted intimidation of Bailey was an illegal form of retaliation, 1865 01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:05,120 Speaker 1: and Amazon had to settle. And just this past month, 1866 01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:10,120 Speaker 1: Amazon fired two worker organizers involved with the Amazon Labor Union. 1867 01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:14,759 Speaker 1: As Lauren Gurley wrote for Vice's Motherboard, quote on May third, 1868 01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:19,080 Speaker 1: Amazon human Resources notified Matt Cusick, the comms lead for 1869 01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:22,880 Speaker 1: Amazon Labor Union and an Amazon warehouse worker, that he 1870 01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:27,439 Speaker 1: had been terminated for voluntary resignation due to a job 1871 01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:32,240 Speaker 1: abandonment quote unquote. According to an email obtained by Motherboard, 1872 01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:37,639 Speaker 1: Cusick had been on COVID related leave. Amazon notified another 1873 01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:44,479 Speaker 1: warehouse employee, employee Tristan Dutchen, an outspoken ALU organizer whose 1874 01:42:44,479 --> 01:42:48,120 Speaker 1: photo has been prominently featured across major media outlets in 1875 01:42:48,200 --> 01:42:51,600 Speaker 1: recent weeks, in a meeting on May seventh, that he 1876 01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:56,160 Speaker 1: had been terminated for Felton falling behind on productivity targets 1877 01:42:56,320 --> 01:43:01,439 Speaker 1: Dutch and told Motherboard quote, I believe it retaliatory Dutch 1878 01:43:01,439 --> 01:43:05,640 Speaker 1: and told Girley, Amazon knows that I'm making national headlines. 1879 01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:10,599 Speaker 1: They could see all my interviews with the press. End quote. 1880 01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:14,559 Speaker 1: Amazon claims the firings are quote unrelated to each other 1881 01:43:14,800 --> 01:43:19,720 Speaker 1: and unrelated to whether these individuals support individuals support any 1882 01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:24,439 Speaker 1: particular cause or group end quote. You guys may remember 1883 01:43:24,479 --> 01:43:26,960 Speaker 1: that in my first installment of the art of class 1884 01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:30,599 Speaker 1: war here on Breaking Points, I talked at length about 1885 01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:34,640 Speaker 1: how the ruling class weaponizes time against us, and I 1886 01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:38,240 Speaker 1: talked about the importance of all of us staying vigilant 1887 01:43:38,720 --> 01:43:42,880 Speaker 1: and committed to workers' struggles even after the headlines and 1888 01:43:42,880 --> 01:43:48,280 Speaker 1: the initial excitement fades. The retaliation and suspected retaliation that 1889 01:43:48,320 --> 01:43:51,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about here is a perfect example of why 1890 01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:55,840 Speaker 1: we have to stay focused and not abandoned these workers 1891 01:43:56,360 --> 01:44:00,200 Speaker 1: after the cameras and social media excitement are gone and 1892 01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:02,680 Speaker 1: they and their co workers are left to fight off 1893 01:44:02,760 --> 01:44:07,560 Speaker 1: increasingly top down pressure, increasing top down pressure, and increasingly 1894 01:44:07,640 --> 01:44:13,080 Speaker 1: tense environments at work. If you like me, like so 1895 01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:17,160 Speaker 1: many of us, have excitedly been sharing news over the 1896 01:44:17,200 --> 01:44:22,640 Speaker 1: past two years of another unionization campaign or strike, or 1897 01:44:23,280 --> 01:44:27,599 Speaker 1: news of workers anywhere standing up for themselves and fighting 1898 01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:30,880 Speaker 1: for what they deserve. Then I urge you to do 1899 01:44:31,200 --> 01:44:35,360 Speaker 1: regular Google searches about those same stories and to add 1900 01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:39,320 Speaker 1: the word retaliation into your search, and you'll see what 1901 01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:43,000 Speaker 1: I'm talking about. Or hell I mean. Go to the 1902 01:44:43,120 --> 01:44:48,960 Speaker 1: Equal Opportunity Employment Commission website, find the newsroom section where 1903 01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:52,839 Speaker 1: they post press releases about settled, filed, and ongoing cases. 1904 01:44:53,479 --> 01:44:56,200 Speaker 1: Type in the word retaliation and give a good look 1905 01:44:56,240 --> 01:45:01,160 Speaker 1: for yourself at all the results. Again, the sad reality 1906 01:45:01,280 --> 01:45:05,400 Speaker 1: is that these documented cases represent merely a fraction of 1907 01:45:05,479 --> 01:45:09,800 Speaker 1: the frankly innumerable instances in this country where workers face 1908 01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:14,960 Speaker 1: retaliation for protected activity and don't report it. Even though 1909 01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:17,800 Speaker 1: the number of cases we can see is pretty staggering, 1910 01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:21,600 Speaker 1: the fact that they traditionally represent a small portion of 1911 01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:26,800 Speaker 1: instances of retaliation means that bosses and companies get comfortable 1912 01:45:26,880 --> 01:45:30,560 Speaker 1: believing that no one will notice or hold them accountable 1913 01:45:31,080 --> 01:45:36,839 Speaker 1: if and when they illegally retaliate against their workers, and frankly, 1914 01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:39,880 Speaker 1: the penalties can be very minor, and so they don't 1915 01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:42,400 Speaker 1: really change their behavior unless they're slaped with like a 1916 01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:45,680 Speaker 1: big settlement that they have to pay out. But this 1917 01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:49,400 Speaker 1: is where we can play a role. In the same 1918 01:45:49,479 --> 01:45:54,400 Speaker 1: way that more people have trained themselves to instinctively whip 1919 01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:58,160 Speaker 1: out their phones and use their cameras to document civilian 1920 01:45:58,240 --> 01:46:02,320 Speaker 1: encounters with police and hold cops accountable for abusing their 1921 01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:06,759 Speaker 1: power or neglecting their duties. We can all help create 1922 01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:11,000 Speaker 1: a climate in which workers know that they are continuously 1923 01:46:11,080 --> 01:46:16,880 Speaker 1: supported and bosses know that they are continuously being watched. Again, 1924 01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:19,920 Speaker 1: like I said in that very first segment here on 1925 01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:25,240 Speaker 1: Breaking Points, we can't just excitedly jump from unionization vote 1926 01:46:25,439 --> 01:46:29,000 Speaker 1: to unionization vote, to strike to strike and so on. 1927 01:46:29,920 --> 01:46:34,200 Speaker 1: Workers struggles against the boss don't magically end after a 1928 01:46:34,200 --> 01:46:39,320 Speaker 1: successful union vote, and sadly, no company has made that 1929 01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:44,280 Speaker 1: clearer than Starbucks. In an article for WES published in 1930 01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:49,000 Speaker 1: April of this year, journalist Paul Blest wrote quote, more 1931 01:46:49,040 --> 01:46:52,759 Speaker 1: than a dozen current and former Starbucks employees told Vice 1932 01:46:52,880 --> 01:46:56,760 Speaker 1: News the company is punishing workers for being vocally supportive 1933 01:46:56,840 --> 01:47:01,400 Speaker 1: of unionizing. Over the past two months months, Starbucks has 1934 01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:06,040 Speaker 1: fired workers across the country, four allegedly breaking a sink 1935 01:47:06,120 --> 01:47:09,280 Speaker 1: on purpose, leaving at the end of a shift. While 1936 01:47:09,320 --> 01:47:14,240 Speaker 1: one other worker was still working. Quote safety violations after 1937 01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:18,280 Speaker 1: being interviewed inside the store by a television crew after hours, 1938 01:47:19,160 --> 01:47:23,760 Speaker 1: entering the store alone, when arriving to work early, allegedly 1939 01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:27,439 Speaker 1: being late to work without letting anyone know ahead of time, 1940 01:47:28,360 --> 01:47:34,000 Speaker 1: allegedly recording supervisors without their permission, allegedly failing to close 1941 01:47:34,040 --> 01:47:39,080 Speaker 1: the store properly, and more. End quote. And one of 1942 01:47:39,120 --> 01:47:44,040 Speaker 1: the examples that Blessed sits in that paragraph is the 1943 01:47:44,040 --> 01:47:46,720 Speaker 1: case of a group of workers at the Poplar and 1944 01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:51,920 Speaker 1: Highland Starbucks location in Memphis who were fired on February eighth. 1945 01:47:52,720 --> 01:47:56,360 Speaker 1: That group, who have become known as the Memphis Seven, 1946 01:47:57,080 --> 01:48:00,639 Speaker 1: made up the original union organizing committee at that store location. 1947 01:48:01,720 --> 01:48:06,439 Speaker 1: In a collective statement released publicly, the Memphis Seven said, quote, 1948 01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:10,559 Speaker 1: we were fired over mundane things. The things we were 1949 01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:13,880 Speaker 1: fired for are things that nobody has been fired over 1950 01:48:14,040 --> 01:48:17,439 Speaker 1: in the past, and we believe they fired us because 1951 01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:20,800 Speaker 1: we were told we were too loud for Starbucks and 1952 01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:23,599 Speaker 1: they had to shut us down the only way that 1953 01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:29,080 Speaker 1: they know they knew how end quote. Starbucks has denied 1954 01:48:29,120 --> 01:48:33,519 Speaker 1: allegations of retaliation, saying that the workers were fired for 1955 01:48:33,640 --> 01:48:38,360 Speaker 1: violating safety and security policies. Including remaining in the store 1956 01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,680 Speaker 1: after closing time with non employees to do an interview 1957 01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:46,360 Speaker 1: with local media. Those Memphis workers did get some sweet 1958 01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:50,200 Speaker 1: vindication of their own this week, though, when the store 1959 01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:53,400 Speaker 1: that they were fired from voted to unionize with eleven 1960 01:48:53,479 --> 01:48:57,320 Speaker 1: yes votes and three no votes. On top of that, 1961 01:48:57,840 --> 01:49:03,440 Speaker 1: as josh Idelsen wrote in Bloomberg last month, quote, Starbucks 1962 01:49:03,439 --> 01:49:07,679 Speaker 1: Corporation violated federal law by firing, threatening, and carrying out 1963 01:49:07,720 --> 01:49:12,479 Speaker 1: surveillance on union activists in New York, US Labor Board 1964 01:49:12,520 --> 01:49:18,080 Speaker 1: prosecutors alleged in a complaint. The agency's Buffalo regional director 1965 01:49:18,160 --> 01:49:21,880 Speaker 1: said in a filing Friday that the company illegally interfered 1966 01:49:21,920 --> 01:49:26,679 Speaker 1: with employees' rights by firing six and retaliating against others. 1967 01:49:27,720 --> 01:49:31,720 Speaker 1: The NLRB complaint seeks remedies, including the reinstatement of the 1968 01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:36,839 Speaker 1: employees who were allegedly illegally fired or forced out, along 1969 01:49:36,880 --> 01:49:42,960 Speaker 1: with financial compensation and apology letters. Starbucks, in an emailed statement, 1970 01:49:43,120 --> 01:49:46,479 Speaker 1: disputed the claims and said the complaint represented only the 1971 01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:51,280 Speaker 1: start of a litigation process end quote. Again, Starbucks has 1972 01:49:51,320 --> 01:49:55,679 Speaker 1: disputed all the charges of retaliation against the company, even 1973 01:49:55,720 --> 01:49:59,320 Speaker 1: as those charges continued to stack up by the week. 1974 01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:03,040 Speaker 1: The National Labor Relations Board has even sued the coffee 1975 01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:07,000 Speaker 1: giant for allegedly retaliating against three employees in Phoenix who 1976 01:50:07,080 --> 01:50:11,040 Speaker 1: were involved in union organizing, demanding that those workers be 1977 01:50:11,120 --> 01:50:17,320 Speaker 1: immediately reinstated with their usual schedules and accommodations, from firings 1978 01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:22,839 Speaker 1: to descheduling and underscheduling people to putting pro union workers 1979 01:50:22,880 --> 01:50:27,160 Speaker 1: on different shifts at different stores. The list of retaliation 1980 01:50:27,439 --> 01:50:31,400 Speaker 1: charges is a mile long at this point, and again, 1981 01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:34,760 Speaker 1: Starbucks denies all of them, As is very often the 1982 01:50:34,840 --> 01:50:38,960 Speaker 1: case in these circumstances, and as workers and organizers around 1983 01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:42,880 Speaker 1: the country have been saying repeatedly, companies like Starbucks do 1984 01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:47,160 Speaker 1: their best to sidestep charges of retaliation by finding some 1985 01:50:47,360 --> 01:50:52,200 Speaker 1: reason for disciplinary action against pro union workers, and those 1986 01:50:52,240 --> 01:50:57,320 Speaker 1: reasons usually focus on fine print violations that managers never 1987 01:50:57,360 --> 01:51:01,320 Speaker 1: cared about before or that were not you know, serious 1988 01:51:01,360 --> 01:51:05,400 Speaker 1: issues before workers made their organizing efforts known, which is 1989 01:51:05,439 --> 01:51:08,880 Speaker 1: why it is so important for anyone thinking of engaging 1990 01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:13,400 Speaker 1: in concerted activity to take care and take precautions, keep 1991 01:51:13,439 --> 01:51:18,000 Speaker 1: a paper trail, have witnesses, get things in writing before 1992 01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:23,040 Speaker 1: you move forward. Now, this is the playbook that workers 1993 01:51:23,040 --> 01:51:26,519 Speaker 1: at the College Avenue Starbucks location in Ithaca, New York 1994 01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:30,040 Speaker 1: have said that managers have been following since they made 1995 01:51:30,080 --> 01:51:34,200 Speaker 1: their desire for a union known and successfully voted to unionize. 1996 01:51:34,240 --> 01:51:39,120 Speaker 1: On April eighth of this year, Ithaca actually made history 1997 01:51:39,120 --> 01:51:41,680 Speaker 1: and became the first city in the US where all 1998 01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:45,760 Speaker 1: Starbucks locations voted to unionize, and all three of the 1999 01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:50,120 Speaker 1: Ithaca locations unionized on the same day. Barely a week 2000 01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:53,880 Speaker 1: after that, workers at the College Avenue location staged a 2001 01:51:53,960 --> 01:51:57,280 Speaker 1: walkout after a grease trap in the kitchen, which they 2002 01:51:57,280 --> 01:52:02,639 Speaker 1: had complained about before, overflowed and spilled a gross, smelly 2003 01:52:02,760 --> 01:52:07,040 Speaker 1: stew of congealed grease and runoff onto the floor. When 2004 01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:10,600 Speaker 1: customers complained about the smell and workers complained about the 2005 01:52:10,640 --> 01:52:14,559 Speaker 1: safety hazard, the shift supervisor made the decision to close 2006 01:52:14,600 --> 01:52:19,200 Speaker 1: the store. Then the acting manager flipped out at the 2007 01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:21,720 Speaker 1: acting manager at the time flipped out, rushed to the 2008 01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:25,080 Speaker 1: store and demanded that they reopen, and so the whole 2009 01:52:25,120 --> 01:52:29,680 Speaker 1: crew went on a one day strike in protests. Now 2010 01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:33,839 Speaker 1: last week, in what certainly appears to be an escalation 2011 01:52:33,960 --> 01:52:39,120 Speaker 1: in Starbucks's alleged retaliation campaign, the company announced that it 2012 01:52:39,160 --> 01:52:43,680 Speaker 1: would be permanently closing the College Avenue location on June tenth, 2013 01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:47,559 Speaker 1: for my podcast Working People This Week, I spoke with 2014 01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:51,920 Speaker 1: Nadia Vitek, a partner at the College Avenue location and 2015 01:52:51,960 --> 01:52:56,639 Speaker 1: a worker organizer with Starbucks Workers United. Listen as Nadia 2016 01:52:56,920 --> 01:53:00,000 Speaker 1: first describes the treatment one of their co workers received 2017 01:53:00,160 --> 01:53:03,920 Speaker 1: by management and then sums up the message that Starbucks 2018 01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:07,280 Speaker 1: is bluntly sending to any workers out there who were 2019 01:53:07,320 --> 01:53:12,040 Speaker 1: even thinking of unionizing. And for context, like a final 2020 01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:14,160 Speaker 1: written warning means that if he gets branded up again, 2021 01:53:14,439 --> 01:53:17,280 Speaker 1: he'll be fired. And so he feels like he has 2022 01:53:17,439 --> 01:53:19,960 Speaker 1: that My specific co worker who got a final written 2023 01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:23,120 Speaker 1: warning has been targeted by her, like really heavily. We 2024 01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:27,360 Speaker 1: also have a fan that like blows cool air on 2025 01:53:27,439 --> 01:53:29,760 Speaker 1: us because our AC doesn't really reach us behind the bar, 2026 01:53:30,320 --> 01:53:34,000 Speaker 1: and she decided one day that it's not quote up 2027 01:53:34,040 --> 01:53:37,200 Speaker 1: to standard and that it's a tripping hazard, and so 2028 01:53:37,240 --> 01:53:39,160 Speaker 1: she unplugged it and said we can only use it 2029 01:53:39,160 --> 01:53:41,800 Speaker 1: when the store is closed. And you know, it started 2030 01:53:41,800 --> 01:53:46,680 Speaker 1: getting really hot recently, and so the co worker I 2031 01:53:46,720 --> 01:53:48,920 Speaker 1: was just talking about, and this actually prompted her to 2032 01:53:48,920 --> 01:53:51,800 Speaker 1: give him a final written warning. He was like, I'm sorry, 2033 01:53:51,800 --> 01:53:53,240 Speaker 1: it's like too hot. I'm going to leave this out. 2034 01:53:53,280 --> 01:53:55,719 Speaker 1: You can do whatever you want to me. She took 2035 01:53:55,800 --> 01:54:02,040 Speaker 1: the fan and threw it in the trash, and then 2036 01:54:02,080 --> 01:54:04,920 Speaker 1: she left. She went outside, took a phone call, came 2037 01:54:05,000 --> 01:54:08,960 Speaker 1: back handed him that final written warning that had like 2038 01:54:08,960 --> 01:54:13,000 Speaker 1: like reasoning that like backed up like a few weeks 2039 01:54:13,240 --> 01:54:18,040 Speaker 1: behind two. I mean, definitely it's retaliation. I don't think 2040 01:54:18,080 --> 01:54:21,439 Speaker 1: there's any other way to look at it. But I 2041 01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:24,439 Speaker 1: think like on top of that, they're also like their 2042 01:54:24,439 --> 01:54:28,479 Speaker 1: goal in this isn't to harm us like at the 2043 01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:33,320 Speaker 1: College As store, but to intimidate workers like everywhere who 2044 01:54:33,360 --> 01:54:36,480 Speaker 1: are thinking about unionizing. I think their goal is to 2045 01:54:36,520 --> 01:54:39,320 Speaker 1: send a message that if you unionize, these are the consequences. 2046 01:54:40,240 --> 01:54:43,560 Speaker 1: This is just like a new escalation and their union 2047 01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:46,960 Speaker 1: busting campaign as a whole, not just in Ithaca, and 2048 01:54:47,400 --> 01:54:49,760 Speaker 1: like it has consequences that are far reaching, which is why, 2049 01:54:49,880 --> 01:54:52,760 Speaker 1: like us at College Avenue, we're going to fight this 2050 01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:55,240 Speaker 1: as hard as we can, and we have like the 2051 01:54:55,280 --> 01:54:59,600 Speaker 1: support financially and in other ways to do that. Again, 2052 01:55:00,280 --> 01:55:04,040 Speaker 1: Starbucks denies charges that this is an act of retaliation 2053 01:55:04,440 --> 01:55:09,400 Speaker 1: for workers unionizing. Quote, we open and close stores as 2054 01:55:09,440 --> 01:55:14,400 Speaker 1: a regular part of our operations. Starbucks spokesperson Reggie Borges 2055 01:55:14,520 --> 01:55:19,200 Speaker 1: told Bloomberg regarding the announced closure, by the time you 2056 01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:23,400 Speaker 1: watch this, the College Avenue store will be closed. Workers 2057 01:55:23,480 --> 01:55:26,440 Speaker 1: like Nadia have told me that the main way people 2058 01:55:26,480 --> 01:55:30,080 Speaker 1: can support them is by paying attention to this ship 2059 01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:35,160 Speaker 1: and calling it out whenever they see it. And frankly, 2060 01:55:35,240 --> 01:55:38,360 Speaker 1: it is depressing to see the number of go fundmes 2061 01:55:38,600 --> 01:55:42,560 Speaker 1: that are circulating right now for fired pro union workers, 2062 01:55:42,560 --> 01:55:46,160 Speaker 1: not just at Starbucks, but a whole lot of people 2063 01:55:46,280 --> 01:55:51,400 Speaker 1: who have engaged in unionizing organizing activities, have been celebrated online, 2064 01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:54,960 Speaker 1: have subsequently been fired and now are struggling to pay rent. 2065 01:55:55,960 --> 01:55:58,760 Speaker 1: And so if you are able to offer immediate support 2066 01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:02,040 Speaker 1: to them while they are fighting to get legal recourse, 2067 01:56:02,400 --> 01:56:07,600 Speaker 1: please do so. Starbucks, Amazon, Kroger, G and D Integrated 2068 01:56:08,000 --> 01:56:11,360 Speaker 1: and a million other lesser known employers need to know 2069 01:56:11,840 --> 01:56:15,320 Speaker 1: that we are watching them and that they cannot just 2070 01:56:15,520 --> 01:56:20,360 Speaker 1: violate our rights and face no consequences to them. I say, 2071 01:56:21,280 --> 01:56:24,120 Speaker 1: we see your asses, and we are not going to 2072 01:56:24,240 --> 01:56:28,080 Speaker 1: let you get away with this bullshit. Thank you for 2073 01:56:28,120 --> 01:56:31,440 Speaker 1: watching this segment with breaking points, and be sure to 2074 01:56:31,480 --> 01:56:34,400 Speaker 1: subscribe to my news outlet, the Real News Network with 2075 01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:37,680 Speaker 1: links in the description. See you soon for the next 2076 01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:41,320 Speaker 1: edition of the Art of Class War. Take care of yourselves, 2077 01:56:41,720 --> 01:56:44,440 Speaker 1: take care of each other. Solidarity Forever,