1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, y'all, it's justin Richmond here. The Broken Record 2 00:00:23,516 --> 00:00:26,356 Speaker 1: team has been revisiting some of our favorite episodes and 3 00:00:26,436 --> 00:00:32,476 Speaker 1: releasing new extended cuts via pushnik, our Apple podcast subscription program. 4 00:00:32,516 --> 00:00:35,356 Speaker 1: To hear more extended cut episodes like this one, visit 5 00:00:35,396 --> 00:00:38,436 Speaker 1: our show page and Apple Podcasts and start your free 6 00:00:38,436 --> 00:00:41,676 Speaker 1: trial today. We're giving you a taste of what these 7 00:00:41,716 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 1: extended cuts sound like with this version of Rick's conversation 8 00:00:45,556 --> 00:00:49,196 Speaker 1: with Brian Eno. This episode was recorded just before the 9 00:00:49,276 --> 00:00:53,796 Speaker 1: debut of Enos Sonos radio station The Lighthouse, where ENO's 10 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:57,876 Speaker 1: programmed day's worth of unreleased tracks from various errors in 11 00:00:57,916 --> 00:01:01,476 Speaker 1: his career. In this episode, we get to hear Rick 12 00:01:01,516 --> 00:01:04,636 Speaker 1: and you Know, discuss the works that changed ENO's conception 13 00:01:04,756 --> 00:01:08,276 Speaker 1: of art, the way lyrics generally hold very little water 14 00:01:08,316 --> 00:01:10,356 Speaker 1: for the both of them, and more on the way 15 00:01:10,516 --> 00:01:14,876 Speaker 1: Eno incorporates randomness into his music. To hear more extended 16 00:01:14,916 --> 00:01:18,716 Speaker 1: cuts of our conversations with artists like The Beastie Boys, Quests, Love, 17 00:01:19,116 --> 00:01:23,996 Speaker 1: Brandy Carlyle, Tanya Tucker, and Moby, subscribe to Pushnick on 18 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:27,476 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts for four ninety nine a month. You'll get 19 00:01:27,516 --> 00:01:31,996 Speaker 1: exclusive content like the Broken Record Extended Cuts and uninterrupted 20 00:01:32,076 --> 00:01:36,116 Speaker 1: ad free listening across fourteen shows in the Pushkin Industry's catalog, 21 00:01:36,436 --> 00:01:40,276 Speaker 1: including Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History and The Happiness Lab with 22 00:01:40,396 --> 00:01:44,436 Speaker 1: doctor Laurie Santos. Search for Broken Record and Apple podcasts. 23 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:47,676 Speaker 1: Visit our show page and sign up there. You can 24 00:01:47,676 --> 00:01:54,356 Speaker 1: try it for free for seven days. This is Broken 25 00:01:54,356 --> 00:01:57,556 Speaker 1: Record liner Notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. 26 00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:04,876 Speaker 1: I'm going to start in a funny place because just 27 00:02:04,956 --> 00:02:07,076 Speaker 1: now before we start, I was thinking about a lot 28 00:02:07,116 --> 00:02:09,596 Speaker 1: of things, and the last thought that came up before 29 00:02:09,596 --> 00:02:12,756 Speaker 1: I made notes this morning was to ask what was 30 00:02:12,796 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 1: the last bit of technology to come along that has 31 00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:21,996 Speaker 1: influenced the way you work? There have been a few. 32 00:02:22,276 --> 00:02:25,956 Speaker 1: I've been working quite a lot with my friend Peter Chilvers, 33 00:02:25,996 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 1: who's an musician and a CODA and we've been working 34 00:02:30,716 --> 00:02:37,956 Speaker 1: on ways of manipulating MIDI automatically and effectively. What we're 35 00:02:37,996 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 1: doing is taking a MIDI signal and subjecting it to 36 00:02:42,956 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 1: various probabilistic mutations. So, for instance, you have a stream 37 00:02:47,916 --> 00:02:51,756 Speaker 1: of information going into the MIDI and you say leave 38 00:02:51,796 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 1: out thirteen percent of that or twenty two percent or 39 00:02:55,156 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 1: whatever you choose. So if you have a drum part, 40 00:02:58,356 --> 00:03:01,476 Speaker 1: it sounds like the drummer's dropping a beat every so often, 41 00:03:02,236 --> 00:03:07,716 Speaker 1: or we can say things like every one in twenty beats, 42 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:12,636 Speaker 1: double it or move it by a quarter beat. So 43 00:03:12,676 --> 00:03:17,116 Speaker 1: we can take parts that are fairly fixed or which 44 00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:19,996 Speaker 1: are loops in fact, and we can suddenly bring them 45 00:03:19,996 --> 00:03:24,236 Speaker 1: to life in some very very interesting and uncanny ways. 46 00:03:24,676 --> 00:03:28,316 Speaker 1: It doesn't really sound like what humans would do, but 47 00:03:28,396 --> 00:03:31,236 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like what machines do either, so it's 48 00:03:31,236 --> 00:03:35,876 Speaker 1: an interesting new zone. I think I've always liked those 49 00:03:35,956 --> 00:03:39,076 Speaker 1: zones between the human and the mechanical. This is why 50 00:03:39,116 --> 00:03:42,116 Speaker 1: I love all the voice treatments that are going on 51 00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:45,636 Speaker 1: now so much, because that's always what I wanted to hear. 52 00:03:45,836 --> 00:03:48,396 Speaker 1: One the one thing that used to be sacred you 53 00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:51,236 Speaker 1: could never touch was the voice, and I always thought, 54 00:03:51,276 --> 00:03:55,036 Speaker 1: why not. You know, it's just another piece of electronic material, 55 00:03:55,156 --> 00:03:57,196 Speaker 1: like anything else. We can do what we like with it. 56 00:03:57,836 --> 00:03:59,516 Speaker 1: Do you ever feel like going the other way? Do 57 00:03:59,556 --> 00:04:05,236 Speaker 1: you ever start with something that synthetical programmed and decide 58 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:09,516 Speaker 1: to recreate it with traditional instruments? Have you ever done that? 59 00:04:10,316 --> 00:04:14,796 Speaker 1: I've done that, and it hasn't always been very successful. 60 00:04:15,396 --> 00:04:18,956 Speaker 1: In fact, it's actually rather rarely being successful for me, 61 00:04:19,676 --> 00:04:23,196 Speaker 1: and I think it's because what I enjoy about the 62 00:04:23,316 --> 00:04:27,196 Speaker 1: use of the electronics and the computers is that they 63 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:31,036 Speaker 1: do things that humans can't do, and I really like 64 00:04:31,196 --> 00:04:34,156 Speaker 1: that area just between what we can do and what 65 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:38,116 Speaker 1: machines can do. There's this sort of new area that 66 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:41,156 Speaker 1: is appearing. I mean, people are noticing it more and more, 67 00:04:41,236 --> 00:04:44,876 Speaker 1: particularly with vocals. Suddenly there are these ways of singing 68 00:04:44,916 --> 00:04:48,916 Speaker 1: that you've never heard before. And what's very interesting, of course, 69 00:04:48,996 --> 00:04:51,516 Speaker 1: is that a new generation of people are learning to 70 00:04:51,556 --> 00:04:54,476 Speaker 1: sing like that. I don't know if you've ever seen 71 00:04:54,516 --> 00:04:58,836 Speaker 1: any of those wonderful things on YouTube where young people 72 00:04:58,916 --> 00:05:02,356 Speaker 1: have clearly heard a Rihannah record or something like that 73 00:05:02,396 --> 00:05:05,436 Speaker 1: and thought, oh, that's great, I'm going to sing like that, 74 00:05:05,716 --> 00:05:08,196 Speaker 1: and they don't actually realize that it's done with an 75 00:05:08,236 --> 00:05:11,996 Speaker 1: auto tune. Yes, that it was not possible to sing 76 00:05:12,116 --> 00:05:15,276 Speaker 1: like that until somebody did it with a machine, and 77 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:18,396 Speaker 1: then somebody else thought, well, it's possible, so I'll do it. 78 00:05:19,316 --> 00:05:23,116 Speaker 1: In the case of the first example, where you're removing 79 00:05:23,196 --> 00:05:26,556 Speaker 1: bits of media information, would you pick a number like, 80 00:05:26,676 --> 00:05:30,156 Speaker 1: let's try eighteen, let's try twenty two, Let's and listen 81 00:05:30,156 --> 00:05:32,116 Speaker 1: to all the results and then pick the one that's best. 82 00:05:32,276 --> 00:05:34,756 Speaker 1: Is that typically how it works well. I can change 83 00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:37,596 Speaker 1: the parameters as as the thing is running. So if 84 00:05:37,876 --> 00:05:40,716 Speaker 1: if I'm running a drum loop, for example, a MIDI 85 00:05:40,756 --> 00:05:44,596 Speaker 1: drum loop, I can sort of think, Okay, what happens 86 00:05:44,596 --> 00:05:48,476 Speaker 1: if I give it seven percent of mutation of or 87 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:53,396 Speaker 1: what happens if I leave out fifty? You know what 88 00:05:53,436 --> 00:05:57,036 Speaker 1: happens actually is that you get Elvin Jones. If you 89 00:05:57,316 --> 00:06:01,236 Speaker 1: leave at a very big percentage, it sounds like Alvin Jones. 90 00:06:01,316 --> 00:06:04,916 Speaker 1: It's very interesting. You still have the sort of fragmentary 91 00:06:04,996 --> 00:06:09,196 Speaker 1: skeleton of the original drum part, but it accents in 92 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:13,796 Speaker 1: the strangest places. So what I can do, So what 93 00:06:13,836 --> 00:06:16,916 Speaker 1: I have been doing quite a lot is tuning the 94 00:06:16,996 --> 00:06:19,796 Speaker 1: system so that it starts to get into that interesting 95 00:06:19,836 --> 00:06:24,436 Speaker 1: area of quasi human and then I run it several 96 00:06:24,436 --> 00:06:27,716 Speaker 1: times and I can record the MIDI that comes out. 97 00:06:28,436 --> 00:06:33,436 Speaker 1: So sometimes there will be a particularly interesting section where 98 00:06:33,716 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 1: the drummer does something really quite extraordinary and does something 99 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:41,236 Speaker 1: that you think, wow, I've never heard of drummer do that, 100 00:06:41,276 --> 00:06:45,316 Speaker 1: and I love it. So then since I've recorded the MIDI, 101 00:06:45,436 --> 00:06:50,436 Speaker 1: I can use that as my basic loop, that section 102 00:06:50,556 --> 00:06:53,396 Speaker 1: that I thought was amazing, that can be the basic loop, 103 00:06:53,956 --> 00:06:57,356 Speaker 1: and then I can again do some variations and mutations 104 00:06:57,356 --> 00:07:01,316 Speaker 1: on that. So sometimes the process is sort of iterated 105 00:07:01,316 --> 00:07:04,916 Speaker 1: two or three times to get somewhere I like. Now. 106 00:07:04,956 --> 00:07:07,796 Speaker 1: I should say that very little of this stuff have 107 00:07:07,876 --> 00:07:11,316 Speaker 1: I actually released. It's still in the stage of where 108 00:07:11,316 --> 00:07:14,476 Speaker 1: I'm just playing with it and fascinated by it. But 109 00:07:14,516 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 1: I've also been using it in a way that I 110 00:07:17,396 --> 00:07:22,836 Speaker 1: have released it with them ambient music. So since a 111 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:25,676 Speaker 1: lot of the work that I've done that I call 112 00:07:25,716 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 1: ambient involves long looped melodies, often several of them playing asynchronously, 113 00:07:34,916 --> 00:07:38,676 Speaker 1: the loops collide with each other in different ways all 114 00:07:38,716 --> 00:07:43,316 Speaker 1: the time, so there's always new combinations. I've been using 115 00:07:43,356 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: the scriptures, this is what we call them, the scriptures 116 00:07:47,356 --> 00:07:51,316 Speaker 1: in those as well, so that for instance, a melody 117 00:07:51,436 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 1: might have say fifteen notes in it, or eleven notes 118 00:07:56,676 --> 00:08:00,196 Speaker 1: or something like that, and three or four of them 119 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:05,996 Speaker 1: can manifest differently, so they are two or three choices 120 00:08:06,036 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 1: for what those particular notes can become. There's always a 121 00:08:10,796 --> 00:08:14,556 Speaker 1: sort of it's a very organic sounding variation going on. 122 00:08:14,996 --> 00:08:19,196 Speaker 1: It's it's very interesting and the results don't sound at 123 00:08:19,236 --> 00:08:23,556 Speaker 1: all computerish. That's what's nice that people listen to them 124 00:08:23,596 --> 00:08:26,356 Speaker 1: and think, oh, that's nice. How did you do that? 125 00:08:27,436 --> 00:08:31,076 Speaker 1: When you tell them, they're inevitably disappointed because they thought 126 00:08:31,156 --> 00:08:35,836 Speaker 1: it was a moment of artistic inspiration, And I say 127 00:08:36,076 --> 00:08:39,596 Speaker 1: it was. It just happened somewhere else. Further back along 128 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:45,236 Speaker 1: the line, would you say that the random aspect of 129 00:08:45,276 --> 00:08:49,796 Speaker 1: the process is always at work free for you? I 130 00:08:49,876 --> 00:08:52,436 Speaker 1: like things when there's a layer of surprise, I suppose, 131 00:08:52,556 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 1: and it's not because I have this John Cage and 132 00:08:56,276 --> 00:08:58,836 Speaker 1: faith in randomness. For him it was a sort of 133 00:08:58,876 --> 00:09:04,236 Speaker 1: religious feeling that randomness tied you into the synchronicity of 134 00:09:04,276 --> 00:09:09,756 Speaker 1: the world somehow. By using randomness, you allowed the state 135 00:09:09,796 --> 00:09:12,676 Speaker 1: of things to affect your work. It's a nice idea, 136 00:09:12,716 --> 00:09:14,916 Speaker 1: and I like it and I respect in his work. 137 00:09:15,516 --> 00:09:20,156 Speaker 1: For me, it's a way of searching a musical space 138 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:24,116 Speaker 1: that I wouldn't do using just my taste. I mean, 139 00:09:24,156 --> 00:09:27,796 Speaker 1: one's taste tends to propel you into the same areas 140 00:09:27,836 --> 00:09:30,636 Speaker 1: over and over again. We all develop a set of 141 00:09:30,676 --> 00:09:35,596 Speaker 1: preferences and habits about where we go. The interesting thing 142 00:09:35,596 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 1: about randomness is that sometimes you're taken somewhere that you 143 00:09:39,636 --> 00:09:44,236 Speaker 1: didn't expect to go, and sometimes that turns out to 144 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:48,196 Speaker 1: be a really interesting new place. So randomness for me 145 00:09:48,396 --> 00:09:51,956 Speaker 1: is really just a tool, just a way of taking 146 00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 1: me somewhere different. So it's not random for the sake 147 00:09:54,996 --> 00:09:59,276 Speaker 1: of random. But through the random process you find something 148 00:09:59,356 --> 00:10:01,596 Speaker 1: new that you're looking for that you didn't know you 149 00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:05,876 Speaker 1: were looking for. Essentially, that's exactly right. Yes, something happens, 150 00:10:05,876 --> 00:10:09,996 Speaker 1: and you kind of recognize that, you think, yes, makes sense, 151 00:10:10,636 --> 00:10:14,956 Speaker 1: even though it's a little bit like neural networks. You know, 152 00:10:15,036 --> 00:10:18,316 Speaker 1: if you if you work with neural networks, they come 153 00:10:18,356 --> 00:10:25,876 Speaker 1: to decisions or propositions that you don't really you didn't 154 00:10:25,916 --> 00:10:29,876 Speaker 1: know before. They're unfamiliar, but you also don't actually know 155 00:10:29,956 --> 00:10:33,356 Speaker 1: how it got there. So the reason I think this 156 00:10:33,436 --> 00:10:37,516 Speaker 1: is interesting is because I think what makes any work 157 00:10:37,556 --> 00:10:42,756 Speaker 1: of art interesting is or gripping or effective, is the 158 00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:47,836 Speaker 1: feeling that somebody was living, somebody was living it, somebody 159 00:10:47,956 --> 00:10:53,036 Speaker 1: was alert and alive and passionate in some way. And 160 00:10:53,756 --> 00:10:56,076 Speaker 1: the way you get into that state is by being 161 00:10:56,116 --> 00:11:00,316 Speaker 1: an unfamiliar territory. I think you're you're most alive when 162 00:11:00,356 --> 00:11:04,556 Speaker 1: you're not quite sure what is going on, when you're 163 00:11:04,596 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 1: you're slightly flying by the seat of your pants and 164 00:11:07,676 --> 00:11:12,596 Speaker 1: you have to ootiate it somehow. That's why we love 165 00:11:12,636 --> 00:11:16,516 Speaker 1: improvisation so much, because people are deliberately putting themselves at 166 00:11:16,636 --> 00:11:21,276 Speaker 1: risk in a way, soaring out into the unknown, and 167 00:11:21,876 --> 00:11:25,236 Speaker 1: somehow dealing with it. And that process of hearing someone 168 00:11:25,356 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 1: dealing with it is the difference between life and death 169 00:11:29,036 --> 00:11:31,676 Speaker 1: in a piece of work, I think, as opposed to 170 00:11:32,596 --> 00:11:35,316 Speaker 1: a person who's just playing a thing they've done a 171 00:11:35,356 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 1: thousand times before and they don't sound like they're particularly 172 00:11:38,836 --> 00:11:41,716 Speaker 1: interested in it. They're just doing it right. They're not 173 00:11:41,796 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 1: doing it well in particular. So I suppose all of 174 00:11:47,476 --> 00:11:51,796 Speaker 1: the strategies and techniques that I use, and there are 175 00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:55,716 Speaker 1: quite a lot of them, besides randomness, are really ways 176 00:11:55,756 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 1: of trying to find myself in a new place, because 177 00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:02,556 Speaker 1: I get excited when I'm in a new place. I 178 00:12:03,196 --> 00:12:06,436 Speaker 1: like being in unfamiliar surroundings. I always used to say 179 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:11,916 Speaker 1: that artists are either cowboys or farmers, really, and they're 180 00:12:11,956 --> 00:12:14,356 Speaker 1: both both ways of being an artist to find, you know, 181 00:12:14,756 --> 00:12:18,436 Speaker 1: the farmer wants to find a piece of territory and 182 00:12:18,676 --> 00:12:22,116 Speaker 1: fully explore it and exploit it. You know, you could 183 00:12:22,156 --> 00:12:25,436 Speaker 1: say the last twenty years of Mandrea, and was like that. 184 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:29,956 Speaker 1: When Mondrea finally settled on the style that we all 185 00:12:30,036 --> 00:12:34,036 Speaker 1: know him for, he just carried on doing it. But 186 00:12:34,756 --> 00:12:37,276 Speaker 1: the other kind of artist is the one who just 187 00:12:37,396 --> 00:12:41,636 Speaker 1: wants to find somewhere new. He just wants to find 188 00:12:41,676 --> 00:12:45,116 Speaker 1: the next frontier, the next piece of territory, and that's 189 00:12:45,156 --> 00:12:49,316 Speaker 1: what he gets turned on by. So I think I'm 190 00:12:49,396 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 1: more in the second category, though, people listening to my 191 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:56,036 Speaker 1: work would say, but it all sounds exactly the same, Brian. 192 00:13:00,716 --> 00:13:03,716 Speaker 1: Do you have that same approach in life beyond art? 193 00:13:03,796 --> 00:13:06,836 Speaker 1: Are you an explorer? Have you lived all over the world? 194 00:13:06,916 --> 00:13:10,396 Speaker 1: Do you continue to put yourself off in new situations 195 00:13:11,156 --> 00:13:13,996 Speaker 1: as a human being as opposed to an artist. I 196 00:13:14,156 --> 00:13:17,916 Speaker 1: have such an amazing amount of inertia, you wouldn't believe it. 197 00:13:18,356 --> 00:13:21,996 Speaker 1: I wouldn't leave my studio if I had the choice. 198 00:13:21,996 --> 00:13:25,276 Speaker 1: Probably now it's not that bad. But the only reason 199 00:13:25,356 --> 00:13:27,596 Speaker 1: I ever go anywhere really is because I don't have 200 00:13:27,596 --> 00:13:31,156 Speaker 1: a choice. For instance, I had to go to New 201 00:13:31,236 --> 00:13:36,076 Speaker 1: York in nineteen seventy eight to do something for a week, 202 00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:39,436 Speaker 1: and it was a nice, lovely weather when I arrived. 203 00:13:39,476 --> 00:13:43,956 Speaker 1: It was this time of year somebody said, well, I've 204 00:13:43,996 --> 00:13:46,556 Speaker 1: got a sublet if you want to stay, and I 205 00:13:46,676 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: ended up spending five years there just because it was 206 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 1: a nice day when I arrived. Yes, I didn't have 207 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:56,036 Speaker 1: any intention of living in New York. And then I 208 00:13:56,156 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 1: left New York because I had to go to Tokyo 209 00:14:00,076 --> 00:14:02,476 Speaker 1: to do something. And I was away in Tokyo and 210 00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:08,796 Speaker 1: somebody robbed my studio and took everything. Actually everything was gone, 211 00:14:09,516 --> 00:14:12,156 Speaker 1: and somebody rang me up and said, your whole studio 212 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:15,716 Speaker 1: has disappeared, and I suddenly had this feeling of relief. 213 00:14:15,876 --> 00:14:18,716 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, I don't have to go back to 214 00:14:18,756 --> 00:14:22,716 Speaker 1: New York then, So then I moved to Toronto after 215 00:14:22,756 --> 00:14:26,276 Speaker 1: that for a little while. But I don't really move 216 00:14:26,436 --> 00:14:29,436 Speaker 1: very much unless I have to for some reason, or 217 00:14:29,516 --> 00:14:33,076 Speaker 1: unless I don't plan things very well. I'm pretty happy 218 00:14:33,116 --> 00:14:35,556 Speaker 1: wherever I am. Actually, I think we have that incoming. 219 00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:41,436 Speaker 1: And it's funny. I'm wondering if the urge to adventure 220 00:14:42,316 --> 00:14:47,036 Speaker 1: creatively is the balance for the fact that we lived 221 00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:50,956 Speaker 1: such her metic lives. I think that's a very good theory. Yes, 222 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:55,476 Speaker 1: I know that whatever I'm doing in my work always 223 00:14:55,516 --> 00:14:57,916 Speaker 1: seems to be balancing what is happening in the rest 224 00:14:57,916 --> 00:15:00,556 Speaker 1: of my life. For instance, when I lived in New York, 225 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:05,036 Speaker 1: I lived on a very very very noisy corner. It 226 00:15:05,116 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 1: was on the corner of Broom and Broadway, so Broadway, 227 00:15:10,236 --> 00:15:13,196 Speaker 1: very busy street, and then Broom was the cross street 228 00:15:13,236 --> 00:15:15,196 Speaker 1: where all the big trucks used to go on their 229 00:15:15,236 --> 00:15:17,796 Speaker 1: way to the tunnel. I lived at the top of 230 00:15:17,796 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 1: the building, but it used to kind of rock with 231 00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:23,476 Speaker 1: this sound. And it was whilst I lived there that 232 00:15:23,556 --> 00:15:27,836 Speaker 1: I made the quietest music I've ever made. And I'm 233 00:15:27,876 --> 00:15:30,076 Speaker 1: sure what I was trying to do was to make 234 00:15:31,076 --> 00:15:33,556 Speaker 1: the place in the music that I needed to be 235 00:15:33,636 --> 00:15:37,316 Speaker 1: able to get to sometimes as a relief from living 236 00:15:37,316 --> 00:15:41,836 Speaker 1: in New York. And then I moved back to England 237 00:15:41,876 --> 00:15:45,836 Speaker 1: about two years later, three years later, and I moved 238 00:15:45,836 --> 00:15:48,236 Speaker 1: to the countryside, to the town that I grew up in, 239 00:15:49,076 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 1: very quiet, small country town. And then I made the 240 00:15:55,356 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 1: loudest music I'd ever made in my life. Again, I 241 00:15:58,716 --> 00:16:01,836 Speaker 1: think I needed a bit of city. I needed, you know, 242 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:07,196 Speaker 1: some grits, some noise. So yes, I think I think 243 00:16:07,356 --> 00:16:10,276 Speaker 1: that's kind of what artists do. They're all is making worlds, 244 00:16:10,956 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 1: and sometimes worlds that they would just like to visit 245 00:16:14,116 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 1: and look at sometimes worlds they would like to spend 246 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:20,996 Speaker 1: time in. Earlier, you said we're born with a particular taste. 247 00:16:21,516 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 1: Do you feel like your current taste is the taste 248 00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:28,796 Speaker 1: you were born with and or has it evolved and 249 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 1: changed over the course of your life. That's a very 250 00:16:32,036 --> 00:16:34,156 Speaker 1: good question. I'd love to make one of those sort 251 00:16:34,196 --> 00:16:39,596 Speaker 1: of graphs over time of the things that have changed 252 00:16:39,636 --> 00:16:42,916 Speaker 1: in my taste. I remember when I first started painting, 253 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:46,036 Speaker 1: because painting was the first artistic thing I did. I 254 00:16:46,396 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 1: never learned to play an instrument, so I was a 255 00:16:50,116 --> 00:16:56,156 Speaker 1: painter as a kid. And I remember I loved combinations 256 00:16:56,196 --> 00:16:59,556 Speaker 1: of red and blue that produced the mo violet range 257 00:16:59,556 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 1: of the spectrum, and I did loads of paintings just 258 00:17:03,876 --> 00:17:07,596 Speaker 1: exploring that sort of what I felt was a melancholy, 259 00:17:08,156 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 1: deep area color, and certainly the melancholy of it was 260 00:17:12,876 --> 00:17:17,916 Speaker 1: a big part of what attracted me, and I don't 261 00:17:17,916 --> 00:17:20,756 Speaker 1: think that's ever gone. I still have that feeling for 262 00:17:21,636 --> 00:17:26,516 Speaker 1: It's sort of a nostalgia for other futures that could 263 00:17:26,516 --> 00:17:28,676 Speaker 1: have happened but didn't. If you see what I mean. 264 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:32,636 Speaker 1: How old were you at this time that you were painting. Oh, 265 00:17:32,756 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 1: I started when I was about nine or ten. But 266 00:17:35,436 --> 00:17:39,156 Speaker 1: I got into the purple area when I was about 267 00:17:39,236 --> 00:17:42,836 Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen. I was very, very impressed by Mandreal 268 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:45,596 Speaker 1: from early on. I used him as an example earlier, 269 00:17:45,636 --> 00:17:50,076 Speaker 1: but it was probably because of Mandreal that I thought 270 00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 1: I really want to be a painter more than anything else. 271 00:17:53,276 --> 00:17:56,796 Speaker 1: I loved the simplicity of his pictures because I kept thinking, 272 00:17:57,116 --> 00:18:02,036 Speaker 1: how can something that is so simple objectively, you know, 273 00:18:02,796 --> 00:18:05,356 Speaker 1: how can that have such an effect on me? It 274 00:18:05,436 --> 00:18:09,476 Speaker 1: was the closest thing to magic that I had ever scene. 275 00:18:09,756 --> 00:18:13,316 Speaker 1: And at the same time I was I love duop music. 276 00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:16,476 Speaker 1: Now you're probably a probably a bit too young for duap, 277 00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:19,076 Speaker 1: aren't you, But I'm a fan of duop. I am 278 00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:21,436 Speaker 1: too young for it. But there was a growing up 279 00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:24,716 Speaker 1: in New York there was a radio show on the 280 00:18:24,756 --> 00:18:28,876 Speaker 1: oldie station on Sundays that played two or three hours 281 00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:31,876 Speaker 1: of duop every weekend don Que Reid and I listened 282 00:18:31,876 --> 00:18:36,036 Speaker 1: to it religiously, and I absolutely love dua Yeah, well, 283 00:18:36,036 --> 00:18:38,356 Speaker 1: this that had the same sort of effect on me, 284 00:18:38,436 --> 00:18:43,636 Speaker 1: because duop is a very simple music in many senses. 285 00:18:43,636 --> 00:18:47,356 Speaker 1: You know, it's mainly about voices, not not about lots 286 00:18:47,396 --> 00:18:50,076 Speaker 1: of instruments and lots of playing and In fact, the 287 00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:52,556 Speaker 1: closer it was to a cappella, the more I liked it. 288 00:18:53,356 --> 00:18:58,276 Speaker 1: And I just loved the fact that four voices could 289 00:18:58,316 --> 00:19:03,636 Speaker 1: produce such a range of colors and feelings that seemed 290 00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:05,516 Speaker 1: to me like on a par with Mondrea and you 291 00:19:05,556 --> 00:19:08,516 Speaker 1: know how. And I was always very drawn to this 292 00:19:08,636 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 1: idea of doing as much as possible with as little 293 00:19:11,476 --> 00:19:14,396 Speaker 1: as possible. I was never impressed by the kind of 294 00:19:14,476 --> 00:19:20,116 Speaker 1: music that used, you know, complicated time signatures and amazingly 295 00:19:20,156 --> 00:19:23,396 Speaker 1: brilliant playing and so on. It's sort of impressive, but 296 00:19:23,516 --> 00:19:25,996 Speaker 1: for me, there was not the same magic in that 297 00:19:26,676 --> 00:19:29,436 Speaker 1: you could see the trick being done, you know, with 298 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:31,836 Speaker 1: Mandre and you just you didn't really know where the 299 00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:34,156 Speaker 1: art was being made. Was it in the picture or 300 00:19:34,276 --> 00:19:37,716 Speaker 1: was it? Was it in you? It was it a 301 00:19:37,716 --> 00:19:41,636 Speaker 1: factor of recognition on your part. So that part of 302 00:19:41,676 --> 00:19:45,396 Speaker 1: my taste hasn't changed. I really am always drawn to 303 00:19:45,516 --> 00:19:50,396 Speaker 1: things that look like anybody could do them, where you 304 00:19:50,476 --> 00:19:53,636 Speaker 1: think I could have made that, but I fucking didn't. 305 00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:59,356 Speaker 1: Why didn't I part I don't know if you have 306 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:02,476 Speaker 1: this feeling, but part of the feeling of one of 307 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:05,356 Speaker 1: the feelings I always have that tells me something is 308 00:20:05,396 --> 00:20:14,476 Speaker 1: great is kind of anger. I didn't do it. I 309 00:20:14,516 --> 00:20:19,316 Speaker 1: don't have that, but I understand it. I do. I'm 310 00:20:19,396 --> 00:20:21,476 Speaker 1: so thankful when there's something that I like that I 311 00:20:21,476 --> 00:20:26,036 Speaker 1: didn't make, because it's so exciting. It's like wow. Often 312 00:20:26,156 --> 00:20:29,596 Speaker 1: I make things more out of the need for them 313 00:20:29,636 --> 00:20:33,676 Speaker 1: to exist. Yes, that's exactly right. I want this music 314 00:20:33,716 --> 00:20:37,756 Speaker 1: to exist. Yeah. The only reason I make music. The 315 00:20:37,796 --> 00:20:41,196 Speaker 1: reason I got into this line of work was because 316 00:20:41,436 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 1: I was experiencing hip hop music and the records that 317 00:20:45,276 --> 00:20:49,236 Speaker 1: were being made didn't reflect what it actually was. So 318 00:20:49,836 --> 00:20:53,396 Speaker 1: my earliest work was really just documenting something that I 319 00:20:53,436 --> 00:20:56,156 Speaker 1: was already a fan of and did. It just didn't 320 00:20:56,156 --> 00:20:58,836 Speaker 1: exist in the world, so I didn't really have a choice. 321 00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:01,316 Speaker 1: So when I do hear something that I like get 322 00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:05,876 Speaker 1: I get very excited because I'm always looking for something 323 00:21:05,956 --> 00:21:10,596 Speaker 1: that feels like a new way In what you said, 324 00:21:10,636 --> 00:21:13,636 Speaker 1: there is something that I've often thought that the things 325 00:21:13,676 --> 00:21:17,356 Speaker 1: that influenced me most in terms of actually making things 326 00:21:18,116 --> 00:21:22,996 Speaker 1: are the things that I hear that don't quite succeed 327 00:21:24,156 --> 00:21:28,036 Speaker 1: where I listen to them, I think that's a brilliant idea. 328 00:21:28,116 --> 00:21:29,916 Speaker 1: And do you know what if they had done this 329 00:21:30,676 --> 00:21:34,236 Speaker 1: and that and this other thing, and left that bit 330 00:21:34,316 --> 00:21:38,276 Speaker 1: out that would be even better. So quite often when 331 00:21:38,316 --> 00:21:42,196 Speaker 1: I'm thinking like that about something, I realize that I'm 332 00:21:42,236 --> 00:21:46,436 Speaker 1: inventing something new which isn't that thing, but isn't something 333 00:21:46,436 --> 00:21:49,636 Speaker 1: that I really had thought about before either. So it's 334 00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:55,196 Speaker 1: quite often hearing something just missing the mark that makes 335 00:21:55,196 --> 00:21:58,956 Speaker 1: me think that could be better. That's been an important 336 00:21:58,996 --> 00:22:03,956 Speaker 1: thread for me. So the other thing about taste. One 337 00:22:04,076 --> 00:22:09,036 Speaker 1: aspect of my taste that has changed over the year 338 00:22:09,476 --> 00:22:14,716 Speaker 1: is that I've become much more fond of messiness or 339 00:22:16,116 --> 00:22:25,156 Speaker 1: incoherence or untidiness in music. Now. Partly this is because 340 00:22:25,196 --> 00:22:30,276 Speaker 1: it is now eminently possible to make things absolutely flawless 341 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:36,076 Speaker 1: in every respect, And of course when something becomes very possible, 342 00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:40,996 Speaker 1: it becomes quite boring as well. You just you quickly 343 00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: tire of it. And so I noticed at first my 344 00:22:45,956 --> 00:22:50,796 Speaker 1: taste in painting started changing when I saw the work 345 00:22:50,876 --> 00:22:53,156 Speaker 1: of the paint of Philip Guston for the first time. 346 00:22:53,716 --> 00:23:00,556 Speaker 1: Philip Guston's work is almost ugly. It's very very clumsy 347 00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:08,396 Speaker 1: and awkwardly painted, but somehow very gripping, and I remember 348 00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:11,756 Speaker 1: thinking do I hate this or do I love it? 349 00:23:12,596 --> 00:23:15,156 Speaker 1: And I really didn't know for quite a long time. 350 00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:18,236 Speaker 1: I was drawn to keep looking at those things. So 351 00:23:18,956 --> 00:23:22,076 Speaker 1: that's something that's changed that that was not a taste 352 00:23:22,076 --> 00:23:24,476 Speaker 1: that I had as a younger person. Do you find 353 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:27,796 Speaker 1: that if you look back, the most interesting things have 354 00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:30,916 Speaker 1: hit you that way, Like when you first hear something 355 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:34,916 Speaker 1: or see something, you don't know whether you like it 356 00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:36,796 Speaker 1: or not, or maybe it makes you laugh or it 357 00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:40,516 Speaker 1: seems ridiculous or yes, but then you come around to 358 00:23:40,996 --> 00:23:45,676 Speaker 1: loving it or maybe loving it the most. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. 359 00:23:46,196 --> 00:23:49,876 Speaker 1: I really admired the who I'd loved that my generation 360 00:23:49,956 --> 00:23:53,636 Speaker 1: and things like that, And then they released a song 361 00:23:53,676 --> 00:23:58,516 Speaker 1: called Happy Jack. I thought they shouldn't release lightweight material 362 00:23:58,676 --> 00:24:02,996 Speaker 1: like this. They are a serious, revolutionary, radical band. What 363 00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:08,396 Speaker 1: are they doing releasing this kind of material? And I 364 00:24:08,476 --> 00:24:14,916 Speaker 1: even wrote to Pete Townsend saying saying, you shouldn't be 365 00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:20,156 Speaker 1: releasing stuff like this, you were much too important, or 366 00:24:20,196 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: something to that effect. And it was about three or 367 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:28,396 Speaker 1: four months later that I suddenly got it that this 368 00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:31,076 Speaker 1: was a kind of pop art in the sense that 369 00:24:31,396 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 1: you know, there was pop art in painting, but there 370 00:24:33,956 --> 00:24:38,036 Speaker 1: wasn't really pop art in pop music. There hadn't been 371 00:24:38,116 --> 00:24:43,636 Speaker 1: that ironic approach to music that the who were using 372 00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:46,996 Speaker 1: them and it didn't really happen again. Well, I think 373 00:24:47,076 --> 00:24:49,836 Speaker 1: Frank Zappa picked it up as well. He was one 374 00:24:49,876 --> 00:24:53,756 Speaker 1: of the great music or ironists in that he sort 375 00:24:53,756 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 1: of stood outside of what he was doing and he 376 00:24:56,836 --> 00:24:59,796 Speaker 1: watched it from the outside and fashioned it from the outside. 377 00:25:00,196 --> 00:25:03,996 Speaker 1: Whereas the traditional image of the artist is someone lost 378 00:25:04,076 --> 00:25:08,316 Speaker 1: in their own passions, completely inside the work and kind 379 00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:12,276 Speaker 1: of crying out to the world. Whereas what happened from 380 00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:16,276 Speaker 1: about the mid sixties in pop music, first of all 381 00:25:16,316 --> 00:25:20,356 Speaker 1: in England, I think, was this notion that actually, you 382 00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:24,156 Speaker 1: know what, we've got the history of pop music behind us. 383 00:25:24,156 --> 00:25:26,436 Speaker 1: We can pick and choose and put things together in 384 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,756 Speaker 1: new ways. So it was a much more sort of 385 00:25:29,956 --> 00:25:34,676 Speaker 1: detached process than people had considered pop music to be 386 00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 1: until that time. So that's one example of something where 387 00:25:38,116 --> 00:25:42,276 Speaker 1: I had a real change of mind, and I've had 388 00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:46,116 Speaker 1: more of those in painting than in music. In music, 389 00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:51,716 Speaker 1: I kind of very often have a pretty good feeling 390 00:25:51,756 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 1: of what is about to happen. I don't mean that 391 00:25:55,236 --> 00:26:00,156 Speaker 1: I could make it, but I'm not incredibly surprised by it. 392 00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:04,636 Speaker 1: For instance, I remember saying to David Byrne we were 393 00:26:04,636 --> 00:26:09,436 Speaker 1: in a car in Los Angeles in nineteen eighty and said, 394 00:26:09,916 --> 00:26:11,596 Speaker 1: I think there is going to be a kind of 395 00:26:11,676 --> 00:26:17,716 Speaker 1: music where people kind of shout poetry over beats. And 396 00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:25,676 Speaker 1: indeed there was. It wasn't entirely an unscripted idea. I'd 397 00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:32,836 Speaker 1: heard something on NPR. It was a poet, a black 398 00:26:32,876 --> 00:26:39,356 Speaker 1: poet from somewhere in America, reading this poem called Cadillac. 399 00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:42,476 Speaker 1: I spent years trying to find this thing. I never 400 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:45,036 Speaker 1: found it. I wrote to MPR and I phoned them 401 00:26:45,116 --> 00:26:49,036 Speaker 1: up and everything. It was called pink Cadillac. And he 402 00:26:49,156 --> 00:26:53,436 Speaker 1: just did this amazing, very rhythmic poem about how he 403 00:26:53,516 --> 00:26:56,236 Speaker 1: wanted a pink Cadillac and how cool it was and 404 00:26:56,316 --> 00:26:59,076 Speaker 1: how it turned rounded the corner and things like that. 405 00:26:59,836 --> 00:27:02,396 Speaker 1: And I thought, this is a new kind of music. 406 00:27:04,356 --> 00:27:06,996 Speaker 1: I mean, had I knew about the last poets. They 407 00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:10,356 Speaker 1: were sort of in the back of my mind as well. 408 00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:14,036 Speaker 1: But I just suddenly had this vision of a popular music, 409 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:17,516 Speaker 1: not a music that would only be on NPR, but 410 00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:20,436 Speaker 1: a popular music that people would want to hear, that 411 00:27:20,596 --> 00:27:28,476 Speaker 1: had heavy beats and speech, not songs. Was the pink 412 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:31,276 Speaker 1: Cadillac piece that you heard? Did it have a beat 413 00:27:31,356 --> 00:27:33,756 Speaker 1: or was it a cappella. I think it was a 414 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:37,556 Speaker 1: cappella or just had a very I can't remember it 415 00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:40,756 Speaker 1: very well now. In fact, I only heard it that once. 416 00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:44,676 Speaker 1: It just stuck in my mind, and I can still 417 00:27:44,716 --> 00:27:47,956 Speaker 1: remember the cadence of some of it. And there may 418 00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:55,316 Speaker 1: have just been a you know that pink CALLAC thought 419 00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:58,996 Speaker 1: that kind of feeling to it, you know, and I thought, yeah, 420 00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:04,036 Speaker 1: that is definitely new. Can you remember any other forms 421 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:08,076 Speaker 1: of music that either do or don't yet exist that 422 00:28:08,116 --> 00:28:12,516 Speaker 1: you you've imagined. Yes, there's one that has just come 423 00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:15,876 Speaker 1: into existence, I think, and it's something that I have 424 00:28:15,956 --> 00:28:18,676 Speaker 1: been sort of playing around with. Do you know this 425 00:28:20,316 --> 00:28:23,556 Speaker 1: listening practice? I don't really know what to call it exactly. 426 00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:26,756 Speaker 1: I could call it music, but I'm not sure it 427 00:28:26,836 --> 00:28:31,676 Speaker 1: is the right word for it. It's called ASMR. This 428 00:28:31,756 --> 00:28:35,556 Speaker 1: is where people are listening very close up noisest like this, 429 00:28:36,516 --> 00:28:41,916 Speaker 1: and there's lots of smacking lips and that kind of thing, 430 00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:48,796 Speaker 1: and basically people tell quite long stories, but they're hardly stories. 431 00:28:48,876 --> 00:28:52,316 Speaker 1: It's about that sound. And they often use stereo microphones 432 00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:55,716 Speaker 1: so they can move their voices from one from one 433 00:28:55,756 --> 00:28:57,716 Speaker 1: of your ears to the other and back and forth. 434 00:28:58,396 --> 00:29:01,716 Speaker 1: It's very, very interesting because these are quite long pieces 435 00:29:02,396 --> 00:29:05,716 Speaker 1: and just go on YouTube and have a look. They've 436 00:29:05,756 --> 00:29:09,236 Speaker 1: got millions and millions of listeners, so there's a lot 437 00:29:09,076 --> 00:29:13,476 Speaker 1: of people doing this. So I heard these first of all, 438 00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:16,076 Speaker 1: I think three or four years ago. I heard the 439 00:29:16,076 --> 00:29:19,196 Speaker 1: first one and thought, this is really interesting. This is 440 00:29:20,076 --> 00:29:24,716 Speaker 1: like having somebody wandering around inside your head whispering to you. 441 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:28,636 Speaker 1: And I thought, this is kind of a night. It's 442 00:29:28,716 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 1: like ambient music. Actually, there's a sort of diminution of 443 00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:36,676 Speaker 1: content in favor of sound. So it's a kind of 444 00:29:37,196 --> 00:29:41,636 Speaker 1: live of the moment sound experience that doesn't really have 445 00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:45,476 Speaker 1: a past or a future. You know. It's not what 446 00:29:46,116 --> 00:29:51,356 Speaker 1: philosophers called teleological. It doesn't doesn't go somewhere, it doesn't 447 00:29:51,396 --> 00:29:56,276 Speaker 1: have a goal. It's a steady state experience. And this, 448 00:29:56,356 --> 00:29:58,876 Speaker 1: of course is what I always wanted ambient music to be. 449 00:29:58,956 --> 00:30:01,596 Speaker 1: Like a like a picture on the wall, you don't 450 00:30:01,596 --> 00:30:05,036 Speaker 1: expect it to change all the time. What changes is you, 451 00:30:05,156 --> 00:30:10,396 Speaker 1: the listener. The art stays relatively still. So I heard 452 00:30:10,396 --> 00:30:13,756 Speaker 1: this as Mr. Stuff and thought, this is a kind 453 00:30:13,756 --> 00:30:19,916 Speaker 1: of ambient music, and I thought, what about making music 454 00:30:19,956 --> 00:30:24,836 Speaker 1: that is vocal music but like that? I had never 455 00:30:24,876 --> 00:30:29,796 Speaker 1: really thought about ambient music being vocal before then. In fact, 456 00:30:29,836 --> 00:30:32,276 Speaker 1: it was for me specifically not vocal. It was a 457 00:30:32,356 --> 00:30:38,596 Speaker 1: sort of deliberately personality free music. And putting a voice 458 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:40,876 Speaker 1: in there to me was to say to draw all 459 00:30:40,876 --> 00:30:44,876 Speaker 1: the attention to the voice and say, oh, here's somebody 460 00:30:44,916 --> 00:30:48,156 Speaker 1: with something to tell you. And I really didn't want that. 461 00:30:48,796 --> 00:30:51,916 Speaker 1: But then when I heard this ASMR, I thought, this 462 00:30:51,996 --> 00:30:55,516 Speaker 1: person clearly has nothing to tell me at all. They're 463 00:30:55,516 --> 00:30:59,716 Speaker 1: talking about how they comb their hair and doing it 464 00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:05,116 Speaker 1: for twenty five minutes. Clearly the message is not about 465 00:31:05,156 --> 00:31:08,556 Speaker 1: combing hair. The message is about being inside a voice 466 00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:13,876 Speaker 1: for a decent length of time. So I started to 467 00:31:13,876 --> 00:31:19,436 Speaker 1: think what would you do to existing music to make 468 00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 1: it occupy that same space, And then I started experimenting 469 00:31:25,196 --> 00:31:28,036 Speaker 1: with my favorite tool of all in the studio, which 470 00:31:28,076 --> 00:31:30,836 Speaker 1: is the low pass filter. Just taking off all the 471 00:31:30,916 --> 00:31:36,156 Speaker 1: high frequency of things has an amazing psychological effect to me. 472 00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:45,796 Speaker 1: It creates scale, distance, warmth, and a weird sort of intimacy, 473 00:31:45,876 --> 00:31:49,796 Speaker 1: which is quite strange. I think, because you know you're 474 00:31:49,836 --> 00:31:54,156 Speaker 1: missing a lot of detail, your brain very actively engages 475 00:31:54,236 --> 00:31:57,116 Speaker 1: with those kinds of sounds. That's my theory about why 476 00:31:57,156 --> 00:32:03,156 Speaker 1: it's interesting anyway, So I started thinking, perhaps there could 477 00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:06,196 Speaker 1: be a kind of music like that where we take 478 00:32:06,276 --> 00:32:11,756 Speaker 1: existing songs, you know, Hannah record or and we just 479 00:32:12,196 --> 00:32:14,956 Speaker 1: put it through a low pass filter, but really a 480 00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:19,196 Speaker 1: really radical low pass filter. So nothing above say two 481 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:23,996 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty hurts is audible. If you listen to 482 00:32:24,036 --> 00:32:30,556 Speaker 1: a Beyonce record through a wall, it's not exhausting. It's warm. 483 00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:34,356 Speaker 1: So about a week ago somebody said to me, oh, 484 00:32:34,436 --> 00:32:39,236 Speaker 1: have you heard this new ASMR music thing, and described 485 00:32:39,436 --> 00:32:43,876 Speaker 1: exactly that same experiment. So it's like you're listening to 486 00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:47,836 Speaker 1: records that are being played in another room, so you 487 00:32:47,916 --> 00:32:56,516 Speaker 1: just have that sort of comforting. You can't really figure 488 00:32:56,556 --> 00:33:00,916 Speaker 1: out what it is, but it's sociable somehow, it's friendly. 489 00:33:01,236 --> 00:33:03,756 Speaker 1: It's like having other people around. It's like a day 490 00:33:03,836 --> 00:33:07,916 Speaker 1: dreamer must yes, yes, yes, that's a good way of 491 00:33:07,956 --> 00:33:11,716 Speaker 1: saying it. Yeah, sounds fantastic. On the other side of that, 492 00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:18,156 Speaker 1: are lyrics ever important to you? They're very rarely the 493 00:33:18,276 --> 00:33:23,116 Speaker 1: thing I'm most listening to in music. I think the 494 00:33:24,516 --> 00:33:28,356 Speaker 1: base requirement for me in lyrics is that they don't 495 00:33:28,436 --> 00:33:32,196 Speaker 1: make the music stupid, which turns out to be quite 496 00:33:32,196 --> 00:33:36,316 Speaker 1: a high bar. In many now people say, do up 497 00:33:36,396 --> 00:33:39,116 Speaker 1: lyrics are stupid, but I don't think they are at all. 498 00:33:39,196 --> 00:33:43,356 Speaker 1: They serve the music absolutely. Do up lyrics are the 499 00:33:44,276 --> 00:33:47,996 Speaker 1: way of making a voice become musical. What is always 500 00:33:47,996 --> 00:33:51,436 Speaker 1: awkward to me is when somebody feels they have something 501 00:33:51,516 --> 00:33:55,796 Speaker 1: to say and it's important and you get these clumsy 502 00:33:56,956 --> 00:34:00,636 Speaker 1: pieces of scanning and the rhymes don't sound stupid, and 503 00:34:00,636 --> 00:34:04,396 Speaker 1: so I can't bear that. I'd rather just leave out 504 00:34:04,436 --> 00:34:07,436 Speaker 1: the voice completely than have that. But I mean, there 505 00:34:07,436 --> 00:34:12,396 Speaker 1: are lyricists who I absolutely adore, Like I always say 506 00:34:12,476 --> 00:34:16,276 Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell, who's for me, one of the greatest songwriters 507 00:34:16,316 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 1: of all time, and her lyrics are so clever and 508 00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:26,596 Speaker 1: intricate and always worth returning to that I'm always hearing 509 00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:30,716 Speaker 1: new things in her singing and new interpretations of what 510 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:34,316 Speaker 1: she's saying. And there are a few people like that, 511 00:34:34,596 --> 00:34:39,116 Speaker 1: very very few whose work I actually do really want 512 00:34:39,156 --> 00:34:41,756 Speaker 1: to know the lyrics of. For instance, I very rarely 513 00:34:41,796 --> 00:34:45,436 Speaker 1: read people's lyrics. You know, they're often printed on the 514 00:34:45,476 --> 00:34:49,556 Speaker 1: sleeves of things I just don't want to know. I'm 515 00:34:49,636 --> 00:34:54,876 Speaker 1: happier not knowing, generally, unless it's Joni Mitchell or one 516 00:34:54,916 --> 00:34:59,836 Speaker 1: of a couple of dozen great writers. Do you like poetry, Yes, 517 00:35:00,516 --> 00:35:03,276 Speaker 1: yes I do. And one of the interesting things I 518 00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:05,436 Speaker 1: don't know if you've found this. Have you ever tried 519 00:35:06,076 --> 00:35:11,196 Speaker 1: turning poems into songs. It's really hard. I worked. I 520 00:35:11,316 --> 00:35:15,396 Speaker 1: work with a poet who also is a rapper, and 521 00:35:15,436 --> 00:35:19,316 Speaker 1: we did a lot of work to make the poetry 522 00:35:19,356 --> 00:35:22,836 Speaker 1: with music not sound like rapping, and it was difficult. 523 00:35:23,436 --> 00:35:29,036 Speaker 1: It took years to break out of the way the 524 00:35:29,156 --> 00:35:31,956 Speaker 1: rhythm of the vocals attaches to the music. And it's 525 00:35:32,236 --> 00:35:38,636 Speaker 1: another thing that I found very interesting is lyrics without rhythm. 526 00:35:38,716 --> 00:35:42,996 Speaker 1: If you heard a rap piece like Pink Cadillac without 527 00:35:43,076 --> 00:35:47,076 Speaker 1: a beat, the lyrics have a much more profound effect 528 00:35:47,116 --> 00:35:52,596 Speaker 1: when there's no beat playing. Yes, always, always, it's there's 529 00:35:52,596 --> 00:35:56,436 Speaker 1: something that happens when the beat is playing that takes 530 00:35:56,556 --> 00:36:00,116 Speaker 1: up too much of our attention to where the lyrics 531 00:36:00,116 --> 00:36:02,956 Speaker 1: become secondary. Always for me, when there's a beat, the 532 00:36:03,036 --> 00:36:06,916 Speaker 1: lyrics are always secondary. Yes, yes, I agree with you. 533 00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:11,796 Speaker 1: And I think the other thing is that poetry by definition, 534 00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:16,916 Speaker 1: puts a lot of freight in those words, and in 535 00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:19,596 Speaker 1: the sense the words are nearly always too heavy to 536 00:36:19,636 --> 00:36:24,796 Speaker 1: make songs out of. They sound awkward, they sound contrived, 537 00:36:25,396 --> 00:36:29,156 Speaker 1: they don't sound like what somebody would naturally sing, and 538 00:36:29,276 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 1: there are very few exceptions to that. One of the 539 00:36:32,476 --> 00:36:36,356 Speaker 1: only things I can think of is that Fug's song. 540 00:36:36,796 --> 00:36:39,556 Speaker 1: It's the poem is called bury me in an Apple Orchard, 541 00:36:40,396 --> 00:36:44,276 Speaker 1: that I may taste your lips again. It's a lovely poem, 542 00:36:44,636 --> 00:36:49,916 Speaker 1: and they do it in waltz time. Interestingly, whenever I've 543 00:36:49,916 --> 00:36:52,396 Speaker 1: tried to do anything with poetry, I've found that waltz 544 00:36:52,476 --> 00:36:57,396 Speaker 1: time is a much much better time to use. And 545 00:36:57,956 --> 00:37:00,876 Speaker 1: I've got this theory that we actually talk in three four, 546 00:37:02,036 --> 00:37:06,836 Speaker 1: not in four four. We talk in groups of three syllables. 547 00:37:07,196 --> 00:37:10,236 Speaker 1: And I mean, I've never not really had very much 548 00:37:10,276 --> 00:37:15,196 Speaker 1: success in turning poetry into songs or any at all. Actually, 549 00:37:16,516 --> 00:37:21,396 Speaker 1: why not, be frank, I think it's a very hard 550 00:37:21,436 --> 00:37:24,076 Speaker 1: thing to do because in a sense, you want the 551 00:37:24,556 --> 00:37:28,196 Speaker 1: words to be as though they are kind of exclamations 552 00:37:28,276 --> 00:37:32,716 Speaker 1: that come out of somebody spontaneously. You want that feeling 553 00:37:32,756 --> 00:37:36,156 Speaker 1: in them somehow, and poetry doesn't often have that feeling. 554 00:37:36,996 --> 00:37:40,676 Speaker 1: It's one of the things that makes opera, I think, listenable, 555 00:37:41,236 --> 00:37:45,236 Speaker 1: is the fact that in I think we translated the 556 00:37:45,276 --> 00:37:48,996 Speaker 1: opera into English, it wouldn't work. And there's something about 557 00:37:49,036 --> 00:37:52,556 Speaker 1: the fact that at least I don't know what they're saying. 558 00:37:53,156 --> 00:37:58,956 Speaker 1: That allows that allows that to work absolutely true. I 559 00:37:58,996 --> 00:38:01,516 Speaker 1: mean it turns it into duop. You know. In duop 560 00:38:01,556 --> 00:38:06,116 Speaker 1: people are saying shut up and shoot and things like that, 561 00:38:06,156 --> 00:38:10,276 Speaker 1: which don't really mean anything. But that's what the Italian 562 00:38:10,356 --> 00:38:15,756 Speaker 1: sounds left to us. It's old on who knows what 563 00:38:15,916 --> 00:38:20,676 Speaker 1: that means? Yeah, do you think the line is between 564 00:38:20,836 --> 00:38:25,916 Speaker 1: sounds and music? It's where that line is. Is actually 565 00:38:25,956 --> 00:38:30,116 Speaker 1: one of the things I've thought about most in thinking 566 00:38:30,116 --> 00:38:33,556 Speaker 1: about music. I had an accident years and years ago 567 00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:37,276 Speaker 1: where I was confined to bed for a while and 568 00:38:37,476 --> 00:38:40,516 Speaker 1: one afternoon, a rainy afternoon, a friend of mine came 569 00:38:40,556 --> 00:38:44,556 Speaker 1: over and I said, as she left, I said, can 570 00:38:44,596 --> 00:38:46,876 Speaker 1: you just put a record on for me? This is 571 00:38:47,036 --> 00:38:48,916 Speaker 1: I had a record player, but it wasn't close to 572 00:38:48,956 --> 00:38:52,156 Speaker 1: the bed, so she put this record on. It was 573 00:38:52,196 --> 00:38:55,876 Speaker 1: a record of Welsh harp music, and she just put 574 00:38:55,916 --> 00:38:58,876 Speaker 1: the needle on. She left, and it was actually very quiet, 575 00:38:58,916 --> 00:39:01,476 Speaker 1: but I couldn't get up to change the volume, and 576 00:39:01,596 --> 00:39:06,436 Speaker 1: the rain was beating down outside, and I suddenly had 577 00:39:06,476 --> 00:39:12,236 Speaker 1: this realization that I loved the fact that the music 578 00:39:12,356 --> 00:39:16,316 Speaker 1: seemed to be arising out of the rain. It wasn't 579 00:39:16,436 --> 00:39:19,596 Speaker 1: on top of the rain. Sometimes it was submerged by 580 00:39:19,596 --> 00:39:22,756 Speaker 1: the rain. But these notes, the loudest notes, were appearing 581 00:39:22,756 --> 00:39:25,436 Speaker 1: out of the rain, and I thought, how lovely to 582 00:39:25,556 --> 00:39:28,356 Speaker 1: co opt the surroundings to become part of the music. 583 00:39:29,356 --> 00:39:34,356 Speaker 1: So this was in nineteen seventy four, I think or five. 584 00:39:34,796 --> 00:39:36,996 Speaker 1: So I started thinking, what about if you made a 585 00:39:37,076 --> 00:39:40,636 Speaker 1: kind of music that didn't have a hard edge to it, 586 00:39:40,676 --> 00:39:44,756 Speaker 1: that didn't have a hard boundary, that wasn't done so 587 00:39:44,796 --> 00:39:47,396 Speaker 1: that you knew that that was a musical sound and 588 00:39:47,436 --> 00:39:52,476 Speaker 1: that everything else was just random everyday noise. I thought, 589 00:39:52,476 --> 00:39:55,156 Speaker 1: what about softening the edges of the music so that 590 00:39:55,196 --> 00:39:59,116 Speaker 1: you include some things that could be noise outside of 591 00:39:59,156 --> 00:40:02,476 Speaker 1: the music. That could be the street, or the rain, 592 00:40:02,636 --> 00:40:05,276 Speaker 1: or the wind or something like that. So I started 593 00:40:05,356 --> 00:40:09,756 Speaker 1: building in this sort of where ambient music started coming 594 00:40:09,796 --> 00:40:12,556 Speaker 1: from was this idea of making music that had a 595 00:40:12,556 --> 00:40:15,836 Speaker 1: soft edge that blended into the rest of the world. 596 00:40:16,556 --> 00:40:20,876 Speaker 1: So this idea of saying, let's make the edge soft 597 00:40:20,956 --> 00:40:24,236 Speaker 1: so that the music can invite in more of the 598 00:40:24,236 --> 00:40:26,756 Speaker 1: rest of the world. It draws it in and that 599 00:40:26,796 --> 00:40:31,596 Speaker 1: becomes part of the composition as well. And I think 600 00:40:31,636 --> 00:40:34,356 Speaker 1: this was at the time I was starting to think 601 00:40:34,396 --> 00:40:40,116 Speaker 1: about messiness as well, that I didn't want the work 602 00:40:40,276 --> 00:40:45,036 Speaker 1: to be sort of in a little capsule, tidily closed 603 00:40:45,076 --> 00:40:46,996 Speaker 1: off from the rest of the world. I wanted it 604 00:40:47,036 --> 00:40:50,756 Speaker 1: to feel like it was somehow connected to it, that 605 00:40:50,796 --> 00:40:52,796 Speaker 1: it bled into the rest of the world. What did 606 00:40:52,836 --> 00:40:54,956 Speaker 1: you look like at the time at that point in time, 607 00:40:55,436 --> 00:40:58,796 Speaker 1: how were you dressing? What was your I think I 608 00:40:58,876 --> 00:41:02,516 Speaker 1: still had long hair, I was still wearing makeup. I 609 00:41:02,556 --> 00:41:08,276 Speaker 1: think then yeah, mid seventies, I was, yes, and I 610 00:41:08,356 --> 00:41:14,316 Speaker 1: wore a lot of unusual clothes. And I'm just wondering, like, 611 00:41:14,396 --> 00:41:17,676 Speaker 1: how the just the justa positions, you know, it's like 612 00:41:18,356 --> 00:41:21,316 Speaker 1: the person who's dressed like that making the music that 613 00:41:21,436 --> 00:41:23,716 Speaker 1: you don't look at or don't pay attention to. It's 614 00:41:23,756 --> 00:41:27,796 Speaker 1: just really interesting. Really, you're absolutely right. It's it's sort 615 00:41:27,836 --> 00:41:32,076 Speaker 1: of inconsistent. And it became clearer to me that they 616 00:41:32,076 --> 00:41:37,996 Speaker 1: were inconsistent that my physical appearance was saying look at me, 617 00:41:38,676 --> 00:41:42,236 Speaker 1: but my musical output was saying, it's nothing. It's just 618 00:41:42,276 --> 00:41:45,756 Speaker 1: a tint. It's just an atmosphere, you know, no big deal, 619 00:41:46,116 --> 00:41:48,636 Speaker 1: carry on with your life. And maybe that was again 620 00:41:49,076 --> 00:41:52,396 Speaker 1: looking for the balance. Yes, yes, you know that art 621 00:41:52,476 --> 00:41:55,596 Speaker 1: was looking for the balance, and yep I never thought 622 00:41:55,636 --> 00:42:00,876 Speaker 1: of that. That's very very likely true. From about the 623 00:42:00,956 --> 00:42:03,996 Speaker 1: late seventies on, I started to not want to be 624 00:42:04,036 --> 00:42:08,036 Speaker 1: a pop star, and really that was that was because 625 00:42:08,036 --> 00:42:10,916 Speaker 1: I thought it was miss leading people. You know, if 626 00:42:11,156 --> 00:42:14,956 Speaker 1: if the whole thing is about me, that's actually not 627 00:42:14,956 --> 00:42:17,916 Speaker 1: a very interesting subject to be honest. I'm not a 628 00:42:17,956 --> 00:42:21,396 Speaker 1: boring person or anything like that, but I didn't think 629 00:42:21,436 --> 00:42:26,796 Speaker 1: that my personality was the thing that I had to 630 00:42:26,876 --> 00:42:32,876 Speaker 1: offer the world. Yeah, you saw larger issues, yes, exactly, 631 00:42:33,276 --> 00:42:35,876 Speaker 1: like what is the edge? What is the edge of art? 632 00:42:37,036 --> 00:42:40,356 Speaker 1: That that was the issue that really interested me. I think, 633 00:42:40,956 --> 00:42:43,356 Speaker 1: what do we call art? And why where do we 634 00:42:43,436 --> 00:42:46,756 Speaker 1: draw the boundary? And what do we what do we 635 00:42:46,836 --> 00:42:49,796 Speaker 1: mean by art? Anyway? You know, for me, the most 636 00:42:49,876 --> 00:42:54,916 Speaker 1: interesting question for a long long time has been why 637 00:42:54,956 --> 00:42:57,356 Speaker 1: do we want to make art at all? And why 638 00:42:57,356 --> 00:42:59,956 Speaker 1: do we want to listen to it? I mean, it's 639 00:42:59,956 --> 00:43:06,796 Speaker 1: an incredibly deep question. Why do we like music? Why? 640 00:43:06,876 --> 00:43:08,756 Speaker 1: You know, if you think about it, what is music? 641 00:43:08,796 --> 00:43:12,796 Speaker 1: It's a kind of arrangement of noises, but you know, 642 00:43:12,876 --> 00:43:16,276 Speaker 1: we have incredibly strong feelings about them. If you said 643 00:43:16,316 --> 00:43:19,116 Speaker 1: to a martian who just landed on earth. You played 644 00:43:19,156 --> 00:43:22,716 Speaker 1: them four string quartets. You know, there's Shostakovich, there's a 645 00:43:23,556 --> 00:43:27,916 Speaker 1: Brahms whatever else, and then there's one done by a computer, 646 00:43:28,036 --> 00:43:31,996 Speaker 1: and there's one played by a group of talentless fourteen 647 00:43:32,076 --> 00:43:35,396 Speaker 1: year olds who've just got those instruments. And you said, 648 00:43:35,556 --> 00:43:38,676 Speaker 1: what's the difference between those? They probably say, well, there's 649 00:43:38,716 --> 00:43:42,796 Speaker 1: no difference. They all sound exactly the same. But we 650 00:43:42,876 --> 00:43:47,556 Speaker 1: are hearing very very very fine distinctions between these things. 651 00:43:47,836 --> 00:43:54,196 Speaker 1: We obviously care about and value these experiences in quite 652 00:43:54,236 --> 00:43:58,876 Speaker 1: intense ways. And since I was about seventeen, I've been 653 00:43:58,916 --> 00:44:02,396 Speaker 1: thinking about this question, what are we doing it for? 654 00:44:03,476 --> 00:44:08,236 Speaker 1: What are we hearing? Why does it matter? We clearly 655 00:44:08,276 --> 00:44:11,756 Speaker 1: can live without music. It's not like food. We can't 656 00:44:11,756 --> 00:44:14,516 Speaker 1: live without food, and we can't live without clothes, and 657 00:44:14,556 --> 00:44:18,116 Speaker 1: we can't live without communicating with other human beings. And 658 00:44:18,436 --> 00:44:20,196 Speaker 1: there are all sorts of things we have to do. 659 00:44:20,996 --> 00:44:24,276 Speaker 1: Music isn't one of them, Painting isn't one of them, Sculpture, 660 00:44:24,516 --> 00:44:27,276 Speaker 1: None of those things that we call arts are things 661 00:44:27,316 --> 00:44:30,436 Speaker 1: that we have to do. So why are we doing them? 662 00:44:30,476 --> 00:44:33,356 Speaker 1: And why is it so universal? We don't know of 663 00:44:33,396 --> 00:44:36,996 Speaker 1: a culture that doesn't have music, Well, then then I'm 664 00:44:37,036 --> 00:44:39,556 Speaker 1: not sure that we don't have to do it. If 665 00:44:39,596 --> 00:44:44,516 Speaker 1: that's the case. Yes, yes, I mean it's not functional 666 00:44:44,716 --> 00:44:49,076 Speaker 1: in terms of survival. It doesn't seem we have never 667 00:44:49,116 --> 00:44:52,556 Speaker 1: tried the experiment. Yeah, to take it away, but it 668 00:44:53,156 --> 00:44:58,836 Speaker 1: seems to have some ability to allow us to feel 669 00:44:58,956 --> 00:45:03,836 Speaker 1: or understand ourselves. The music isn't what's important. It's the 670 00:45:03,956 --> 00:45:08,276 Speaker 1: reaction that's important. Yes, exactly, it's what is happening to us. 671 00:45:10,076 --> 00:45:13,036 Speaker 1: I think it's easier to see why we like novels 672 00:45:13,116 --> 00:45:18,276 Speaker 1: and art forms that involve language in that way, because 673 00:45:19,036 --> 00:45:21,516 Speaker 1: it must be an important thing for humans to be 674 00:45:21,556 --> 00:45:26,676 Speaker 1: able to imagine other worlds. That's how we work. You know, 675 00:45:26,756 --> 00:45:30,636 Speaker 1: we're good at visualizing worlds that don't exist. We can 676 00:45:30,676 --> 00:45:34,196 Speaker 1: imagine a bridge across that river. We can imagine a 677 00:45:34,316 --> 00:45:38,036 Speaker 1: city where this and that happens. We can imagine all 678 00:45:38,076 --> 00:45:41,876 Speaker 1: sorts of things because we have a lot of experience 679 00:45:41,916 --> 00:45:46,076 Speaker 1: in imagining. So you can see with novels where somebody 680 00:45:46,116 --> 00:45:49,156 Speaker 1: sets out, here's a world where these people do this 681 00:45:49,276 --> 00:45:51,396 Speaker 1: kind of thing, and this person does that to that, 682 00:45:51,876 --> 00:45:54,516 Speaker 1: and all of this stuff happens, and what do you 683 00:45:54,596 --> 00:45:59,156 Speaker 1: think about it? We're constantly revising our thoughts about what 684 00:45:59,196 --> 00:46:02,876 Speaker 1: we think about things on the basis of fiction. Essentially, 685 00:46:03,596 --> 00:46:07,116 Speaker 1: fiction is an experiment in what could happen, what if 686 00:46:07,156 --> 00:46:11,156 Speaker 1: we did this? But whereas it's easy to see that 687 00:46:11,236 --> 00:46:15,116 Speaker 1: with things that have words, like novels, it's much harder 688 00:46:15,116 --> 00:46:18,476 Speaker 1: to see it with things that have no narrative content, 689 00:46:19,076 --> 00:46:24,916 Speaker 1: like music, or earrings or or cake decorations. All of 690 00:46:24,956 --> 00:46:29,716 Speaker 1: those things seem to be very arbitrary by comparison to 691 00:46:29,796 --> 00:46:33,036 Speaker 1: the stuff that happens in novels. But my argument is 692 00:46:33,036 --> 00:46:36,996 Speaker 1: that actually they're not arbitrary at all. Style what's called 693 00:46:37,036 --> 00:46:42,116 Speaker 1: style is content, and we're very alert to stylistic changes. 694 00:46:42,756 --> 00:46:46,556 Speaker 1: We know that we feel the difference. No is not 695 00:46:46,596 --> 00:46:49,956 Speaker 1: the right word. We feel the difference between something that's 696 00:46:49,996 --> 00:46:55,956 Speaker 1: painted very carefully with quiet, slow strokes and something that's 697 00:46:55,996 --> 00:47:01,476 Speaker 1: painted very quickly with broad, violent strokes. It doesn't matter 698 00:47:01,556 --> 00:47:04,756 Speaker 1: what it is that's being painted. Even at that level, 699 00:47:05,396 --> 00:47:08,996 Speaker 1: we start to get feelings for that work. Music affects 700 00:47:09,196 --> 00:47:12,436 Speaker 1: us the same the same way, or maybe more so 701 00:47:12,756 --> 00:47:16,476 Speaker 1: than words, in that it's an abstraction and in the 702 00:47:16,556 --> 00:47:21,836 Speaker 1: abstract that we can I'll say recognize because no, as 703 00:47:21,836 --> 00:47:25,036 Speaker 1: we say it's not no, it's more like recognize a 704 00:47:25,156 --> 00:47:29,796 Speaker 1: greater truth or or have more of a awareness or something, 705 00:47:29,956 --> 00:47:34,236 Speaker 1: or sense something that that's too big for words, yes, 706 00:47:34,396 --> 00:47:39,716 Speaker 1: or too too hard to find words for. Often, I 707 00:47:39,756 --> 00:47:44,276 Speaker 1: think when when you feel something in music, what you 708 00:47:44,396 --> 00:47:49,356 Speaker 1: feel is I think, is you feel, Oh, that's a 709 00:47:49,516 --> 00:47:53,276 Speaker 1: kind of world that could exist where those kinds of 710 00:47:53,276 --> 00:47:56,756 Speaker 1: feelings happened and are possible. You might not even be 711 00:47:56,796 --> 00:48:00,276 Speaker 1: able to say, you know. If I think back, for example, 712 00:48:00,316 --> 00:48:04,436 Speaker 1: to my experiments with red and blue, mixing red and 713 00:48:04,476 --> 00:48:07,396 Speaker 1: blue when I started painting, I just got such a 714 00:48:07,436 --> 00:48:10,676 Speaker 1: strong feeling from those things, and it was a feeling 715 00:48:10,836 --> 00:48:16,116 Speaker 1: about a kind of world I thought existed, but it 716 00:48:16,156 --> 00:48:18,396 Speaker 1: was sort of intangible and I couldn't give a name 717 00:48:18,436 --> 00:48:21,316 Speaker 1: to it. I didn't know the word melancholy. Then I 718 00:48:21,356 --> 00:48:24,436 Speaker 1: didn't have a way of describing it. But I had 719 00:48:24,476 --> 00:48:28,356 Speaker 1: a way of touching the feeling of it through these 720 00:48:28,356 --> 00:48:31,836 Speaker 1: experiments I was doing with colors. And I think that's 721 00:48:31,876 --> 00:48:33,716 Speaker 1: one of the things that art does for you, that 722 00:48:33,796 --> 00:48:39,916 Speaker 1: you sort of orientate yourself. You find something that moves you, 723 00:48:40,636 --> 00:48:45,916 Speaker 1: and something in you says, what world is that telling 724 00:48:45,956 --> 00:48:49,596 Speaker 1: you about? What are you being drawn towards what is 725 00:48:49,676 --> 00:48:52,356 Speaker 1: happening inside you? What are the feelings that you have 726 00:48:52,796 --> 00:48:55,556 Speaker 1: and where do they come from? And how could you 727 00:48:56,076 --> 00:48:58,796 Speaker 1: if you're attracted to them, how could you find more 728 00:48:58,836 --> 00:49:01,236 Speaker 1: of them in your life? Where would you find more 729 00:49:01,276 --> 00:49:04,396 Speaker 1: of them? And if you're repelled by them, how do 730 00:49:04,436 --> 00:49:06,916 Speaker 1: you avoid them in life? Because of course it's not 731 00:49:06,956 --> 00:49:10,036 Speaker 1: all about good feelings, you know, if you're reading a 732 00:49:10,076 --> 00:49:14,396 Speaker 1: book like nineteen eighty four, the point is discovering a 733 00:49:14,436 --> 00:49:17,476 Speaker 1: world that you don't want to inhabit. So it's it's 734 00:49:17,516 --> 00:49:23,076 Speaker 1: not only about attractive attraction, it's it's about the sources 735 00:49:23,076 --> 00:49:26,196 Speaker 1: of repulsion as well. I imagine it when we tap 736 00:49:26,356 --> 00:49:30,556 Speaker 1: into that in art, it makes us also feel less alone, 737 00:49:31,196 --> 00:49:35,516 Speaker 1: not even that someone made it. But there's something out 738 00:49:35,556 --> 00:49:38,556 Speaker 1: there that resonates with me, even if it's the paint. Yes, 739 00:49:39,156 --> 00:49:45,676 Speaker 1: I'm not this this thing that doesn't understand itself. Here's 740 00:49:45,716 --> 00:49:50,036 Speaker 1: something that is being reflected back that resonates with me. 741 00:49:50,916 --> 00:49:53,916 Speaker 1: I feel a connection. So it's maybe it's like love, 742 00:49:54,076 --> 00:49:57,356 Speaker 1: might be like love. Now, I think this is such 743 00:49:57,356 --> 00:50:01,236 Speaker 1: an important point that the thing that binds communities together 744 00:50:01,756 --> 00:50:05,236 Speaker 1: is shared culture, and it's for exactly that reason. I 745 00:50:05,276 --> 00:50:08,476 Speaker 1: think it's the knowledge that there are a group of 746 00:50:08,476 --> 00:50:11,876 Speaker 1: other people who have these same feelings. You might not 747 00:50:11,956 --> 00:50:14,596 Speaker 1: even be able to articulate them. But you know, I 748 00:50:14,636 --> 00:50:18,356 Speaker 1: can remember this so strongly from when I was young, 749 00:50:18,476 --> 00:50:23,516 Speaker 1: that you defined yourself almost by the set of feelings 750 00:50:23,556 --> 00:50:27,916 Speaker 1: that you responded to. So, for instance, I remember it 751 00:50:28,236 --> 00:50:31,076 Speaker 1: there was a time when you were either a Beatles 752 00:50:31,116 --> 00:50:35,716 Speaker 1: fan or a Rolling Stones fan, and they were fundamentally different. 753 00:50:36,476 --> 00:50:40,156 Speaker 1: They talked about a different kind of person. You know, 754 00:50:40,596 --> 00:50:43,716 Speaker 1: doesn't matter that in the end they all ended up millionaires, 755 00:50:43,756 --> 00:50:48,116 Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter, it's not important. What was important 756 00:50:48,236 --> 00:50:52,436 Speaker 1: was that they presented these two different pictures of the 757 00:50:52,556 --> 00:50:56,596 Speaker 1: kinds of feelings that were appropriate to have about the world, 758 00:50:57,276 --> 00:51:00,516 Speaker 1: and crossing over from one to the other was a 759 00:51:00,636 --> 00:51:05,956 Speaker 1: big decision. I can remember people having real sort of 760 00:51:06,276 --> 00:51:10,436 Speaker 1: identity crises about they were fine starting to find the 761 00:51:10,476 --> 00:51:13,396 Speaker 1: Stones more exciting than the Beatles, and in fact they 762 00:51:13,396 --> 00:51:16,076 Speaker 1: were starting to find the Beatles a bit sort of wimpy, 763 00:51:17,076 --> 00:51:20,116 Speaker 1: or vice versa. Actually as well, it happened both ways. 764 00:51:20,196 --> 00:51:23,956 Speaker 1: So I think you're right that you you tap into 765 00:51:23,996 --> 00:51:27,516 Speaker 1: a sort of community of feelings and the sense that 766 00:51:28,396 --> 00:51:32,156 Speaker 1: there are other people who value the same feelings that 767 00:51:32,236 --> 00:51:35,036 Speaker 1: I value. That's sort of what it's about. Really, It's 768 00:51:35,076 --> 00:51:39,676 Speaker 1: about saying these feelings have value for me, and there's 769 00:51:39,676 --> 00:51:42,836 Speaker 1: a lot of others that don't. Yeah, there's also a 770 00:51:42,836 --> 00:51:46,316 Speaker 1: great feeling in finding a new piece of art and 771 00:51:46,396 --> 00:51:51,556 Speaker 1: sharing it with someone and enjoying it together is different 772 00:51:51,596 --> 00:51:55,276 Speaker 1: than enjoying it yourself. There's a real sense of community 773 00:51:55,956 --> 00:52:00,796 Speaker 1: in enjoying something that you know, we enjoy this, but 774 00:52:00,836 --> 00:52:04,716 Speaker 1: maybe maybe many people don't, and that's fine. Yes, it's 775 00:52:04,716 --> 00:52:07,476 Speaker 1: a great feeling of connection, and maybe that's maybe that's 776 00:52:07,516 --> 00:52:11,636 Speaker 1: the greatest feeling of connection, is the feeling of these 777 00:52:11,836 --> 00:52:19,156 Speaker 1: shared responses to stimuli. Yes, And incidentally, I think that's 778 00:52:19,236 --> 00:52:24,356 Speaker 1: the that's the power of religion as well. The power 779 00:52:24,356 --> 00:52:29,516 Speaker 1: of religion is not the connection with God, but the 780 00:52:29,556 --> 00:52:32,356 Speaker 1: connection with the rest of the congregation. I think, the 781 00:52:32,436 --> 00:52:36,196 Speaker 1: connection with all of the people who also believe in 782 00:52:36,276 --> 00:52:41,916 Speaker 1: that particular story. I'm not really religious myself, but I 783 00:52:41,956 --> 00:52:47,356 Speaker 1: really respond to that idea. You know, I got into 784 00:52:47,396 --> 00:52:52,076 Speaker 1: gospel music very young. In fact, when I came to America, 785 00:52:52,236 --> 00:52:56,516 Speaker 1: I was by then a big gospel fan. And what 786 00:52:56,676 --> 00:53:00,236 Speaker 1: surprised me was that all my hip friends thought it 787 00:53:00,276 --> 00:53:04,996 Speaker 1: was quite embarrassing if they found a little bit a 788 00:53:05,156 --> 00:53:09,036 Speaker 1: quaint or something that I liked. Gospel music to me, 789 00:53:09,316 --> 00:53:13,236 Speaker 1: it was just like Doop had been. It was this amazing, 790 00:53:13,436 --> 00:53:18,636 Speaker 1: exotic foreign music and it really came straight through to me. 791 00:53:19,356 --> 00:53:23,596 Speaker 1: But the you know, religious music, there are certain stages 792 00:53:23,676 --> 00:53:27,996 Speaker 1: in one's life when music becomes a religious experience, when 793 00:53:28,556 --> 00:53:31,956 Speaker 1: suddenly it represents all sorts of things, all sorts of 794 00:53:33,036 --> 00:53:37,876 Speaker 1: whole host of baggage comes with the musical experience. And 795 00:53:38,116 --> 00:53:40,596 Speaker 1: you know, as you know in pop music, it always 796 00:53:40,636 --> 00:53:45,116 Speaker 1: involves not only music, in fact, not mainly music. Often 797 00:53:45,156 --> 00:53:50,036 Speaker 1: it involves haircuts and ways of dressing, social manners, ways 798 00:53:50,076 --> 00:53:52,836 Speaker 1: of talking to each other. All of those things come 799 00:53:52,876 --> 00:53:56,116 Speaker 1: bound up in the same package that they're all part 800 00:53:56,156 --> 00:53:59,636 Speaker 1: of the same sort of universe of feelings that you've 801 00:53:59,676 --> 00:54:03,636 Speaker 1: decided to enter into. That's why we call it culture 802 00:54:04,076 --> 00:54:06,836 Speaker 1: because it's a big mess of all sorts of things. 803 00:54:07,476 --> 00:54:12,076 Speaker 1: It involves everything, cooking, what you should eat. And there's 804 00:54:12,116 --> 00:54:15,516 Speaker 1: a brilliant book. Actually, I think you'd really like it. 805 00:54:15,516 --> 00:54:19,196 Speaker 1: It's about the end of the Soviet Union. I'm always 806 00:54:19,196 --> 00:54:21,116 Speaker 1: telling people to read this book because I think it's 807 00:54:21,116 --> 00:54:25,356 Speaker 1: so not well known enough, and it's called Everything Was 808 00:54:25,476 --> 00:54:29,756 Speaker 1: Forever Until it Was no More, and then the subtitle 809 00:54:29,876 --> 00:54:33,796 Speaker 1: is the Last Soviet Generation. It's one of the best 810 00:54:33,876 --> 00:54:39,156 Speaker 1: books about youth culture I've ever read, about how beliefs 811 00:54:39,356 --> 00:54:45,116 Speaker 1: and feelings and orientations spread through people and suddenly everybody's 812 00:54:45,156 --> 00:54:48,916 Speaker 1: doing it. And the title Everything was Forever Until it 813 00:54:48,956 --> 00:54:51,716 Speaker 1: Was no More refers to the fact that the Soviet 814 00:54:51,836 --> 00:54:58,156 Speaker 1: Union disappeared overnight. It had seemed eternal, you know, nobody 815 00:54:58,196 --> 00:55:01,796 Speaker 1: could imagine it not being there, and in one night 816 00:55:01,876 --> 00:55:06,716 Speaker 1: it was gone. Next day there was no Soviet Union anymore, 817 00:55:06,996 --> 00:55:10,116 Speaker 1: and people carried on with their lives. It turned out 818 00:55:10,156 --> 00:55:13,316 Speaker 1: that they've been living without the Soviet Union for a 819 00:55:13,356 --> 00:55:16,516 Speaker 1: long time. In their heads. This is what will happen. 820 00:55:16,836 --> 00:55:21,556 Speaker 1: I hope to capitalism eventually that it will have looked 821 00:55:21,556 --> 00:55:24,316 Speaker 1: like it was forever, but suddenly it will disappear. I 822 00:55:24,396 --> 00:55:28,476 Speaker 1: wonder what it was like on the day of the change. 823 00:55:28,556 --> 00:55:30,756 Speaker 1: I guess that's what the book's about. It's really worth 824 00:55:30,796 --> 00:55:35,836 Speaker 1: reading because it talks about the youth culture leading up 825 00:55:35,876 --> 00:55:39,196 Speaker 1: in the twenty years before the end of the Soviet Union, 826 00:55:39,636 --> 00:55:47,396 Speaker 1: and because because it involved Russians. Russians are incredibly articulate 827 00:55:47,596 --> 00:55:51,836 Speaker 1: and very much to do with manifestos and writing down 828 00:55:52,076 --> 00:55:58,156 Speaker 1: positions and articulating positions. So there's a lot of documentation 829 00:55:58,476 --> 00:56:00,396 Speaker 1: of what people were doing and what they thought they 830 00:56:00,436 --> 00:56:03,556 Speaker 1: were doing, which is what makes this book so great. 831 00:56:04,716 --> 00:56:10,596 Speaker 1: You think, wow, young people are so brilliant, They're so 832 00:56:11,396 --> 00:56:16,076 Speaker 1: fruitful coming up with ideas. It's quite humbling to read, 833 00:56:16,116 --> 00:56:22,636 Speaker 1: actually beautiful. I've heard the story before of how the 834 00:56:22,716 --> 00:56:29,116 Speaker 1: moment of recognition or the need for what became ambient 835 00:56:29,196 --> 00:56:33,236 Speaker 1: music based on the Cologne airport. Sitting in the Cologne airport. 836 00:56:33,836 --> 00:56:35,956 Speaker 1: How might it have been different if it would have 837 00:56:35,996 --> 00:56:39,236 Speaker 1: happened in a natural space as opposed to a man 838 00:56:39,276 --> 00:56:43,796 Speaker 1: made space. Well, the question really is would it have 839 00:56:43,956 --> 00:56:46,196 Speaker 1: even occurred to me if if I was in a 840 00:56:46,276 --> 00:56:48,676 Speaker 1: natural space, I'm not sure that it would have done. 841 00:56:49,276 --> 00:56:54,836 Speaker 1: It was because I was in an incredibly carefully manufactured space, 842 00:56:55,116 --> 00:57:00,316 Speaker 1: beautiful airport, where the architects had really looked at every detail, 843 00:57:00,356 --> 00:57:02,756 Speaker 1: and the light was beautiful and the lines of the 844 00:57:02,796 --> 00:57:07,476 Speaker 1: place were beautiful, and somebody in the cafe had put 845 00:57:07,476 --> 00:57:12,316 Speaker 1: on a cassette of German disco music which was ringing 846 00:57:12,316 --> 00:57:15,636 Speaker 1: through the airport. I mean, I wasn't postmodern enough at 847 00:57:15,636 --> 00:57:19,396 Speaker 1: the time. To accept that. I just thought, that's not right. 848 00:57:20,036 --> 00:57:23,396 Speaker 1: That part hasn't been thought about. Everything else has been 849 00:57:23,396 --> 00:57:27,876 Speaker 1: thought about, but nobody's thought about that now. It was 850 00:57:27,916 --> 00:57:30,196 Speaker 1: a beautiful day and the airport was nearly empty, and 851 00:57:30,236 --> 00:57:32,796 Speaker 1: I was sitting there, bathed in light, and it was 852 00:57:32,836 --> 00:57:35,196 Speaker 1: one of those cases like we were talking about earlier, 853 00:57:35,236 --> 00:57:37,956 Speaker 1: where you think, I wish there was another kind of 854 00:57:38,076 --> 00:57:42,076 Speaker 1: music for this situation. And I started thinking, so what 855 00:57:42,156 --> 00:57:45,356 Speaker 1: would that be like. You know, it's an airport, so 856 00:57:45,476 --> 00:57:49,676 Speaker 1: you can't be too loud. Obviously, people have to hear announcements. 857 00:57:50,636 --> 00:57:54,076 Speaker 1: It has to be interruptible for the same reason. It 858 00:57:54,116 --> 00:57:57,876 Speaker 1: shouldn't dominate the vocal register, because people need to communicate. 859 00:57:58,876 --> 00:58:01,116 Speaker 1: So I just was sort of thinking this out, and 860 00:58:02,236 --> 00:58:04,796 Speaker 1: quite soon I thought, right, I think I know what 861 00:58:04,916 --> 00:58:07,716 Speaker 1: I could make that music. I know how I could 862 00:58:07,756 --> 00:58:11,276 Speaker 1: do that. And that's how that first ambient record came about. 863 00:58:11,436 --> 00:58:14,276 Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't unprecedented. I had been working on 864 00:58:14,396 --> 00:58:17,516 Speaker 1: music a little bit like that before, but I suddenly 865 00:58:17,556 --> 00:58:21,236 Speaker 1: realized what its role in life could be. If you like, 866 00:58:21,796 --> 00:58:24,356 Speaker 1: what the place of this music could be. I knew 867 00:58:24,396 --> 00:58:29,836 Speaker 1: it wasn't dance music. I knew it wasn't radio music. 868 00:58:30,396 --> 00:58:33,796 Speaker 1: It was functional, but I hadn't yet discovered the function. 869 00:58:33,836 --> 00:58:36,236 Speaker 1: It was then that I thought, I know what this 870 00:58:36,316 --> 00:58:40,316 Speaker 1: music could be for. Might there be other forms of 871 00:58:40,356 --> 00:58:46,156 Speaker 1: ambient music for different use cases? Yes? I did a 872 00:58:46,236 --> 00:58:52,156 Speaker 1: record called Narrowly. The subtitle was Music for Thinking that 873 00:58:52,236 --> 00:58:54,996 Speaker 1: really came out of a response. Well, first of all, 874 00:58:55,076 --> 00:59:00,516 Speaker 1: hearing from a lot of particularly artists and graphic designers 875 00:59:00,516 --> 00:59:03,276 Speaker 1: that they liked having my music playing when they were working. 876 00:59:04,036 --> 00:59:09,436 Speaker 1: They didn't want conventional records which kept stopping and starting 877 00:59:09,476 --> 00:59:12,916 Speaker 1: and the mood changing, and they were there was lyrics 878 00:59:12,916 --> 00:59:15,676 Speaker 1: and they were kind of annoying. They didn't want classical 879 00:59:15,756 --> 00:59:19,916 Speaker 1: music because it sort of felt too old. They liked 880 00:59:19,956 --> 00:59:24,476 Speaker 1: this music that had this sort of directionless atmospheric quality. 881 00:59:25,076 --> 00:59:29,836 Speaker 1: So I thought, oh, good, so it's workings. It's working functionally, 882 00:59:30,756 --> 00:59:33,876 Speaker 1: And so I thought, so what about when you want 883 00:59:33,916 --> 00:59:38,556 Speaker 1: to sit and concentrate on something, You want to have 884 00:59:38,716 --> 00:59:42,156 Speaker 1: something that kind of calms the world down a little 885 00:59:42,156 --> 00:59:47,236 Speaker 1: bit around you, that softens, as Eric Sati said, softens 886 00:59:47,316 --> 00:59:51,556 Speaker 1: the clink of fork against dinner plate or something like that. 887 00:59:51,836 --> 00:59:54,996 Speaker 1: I forget the quote exactly, but you want something that 888 00:59:55,076 --> 00:59:59,516 Speaker 1: is sort of a slight barrier to the noises of 889 00:59:59,516 --> 01:00:03,356 Speaker 1: the world, and it becomes a barrier by sucking them 890 01:00:03,396 --> 01:00:07,116 Speaker 1: into itself. And so that I came up with this 891 01:00:07,716 --> 01:00:12,076 Speaker 1: piece Coordinarily, which is an hour long piece, which at 892 01:00:12,076 --> 01:00:15,116 Speaker 1: that time was the longest I could make it. And 893 01:00:15,196 --> 01:00:17,996 Speaker 1: I started thinking then about the idea of music that 894 01:00:18,716 --> 01:00:26,716 Speaker 1: doesn't have a beginning or end, that just is theoretically infinite. Well, 895 01:00:27,516 --> 01:00:30,636 Speaker 1: that didn't become possible until the nineties when I started 896 01:00:30,676 --> 01:00:35,036 Speaker 1: working with computers, and it was possible to make the 897 01:00:35,156 --> 01:00:39,156 Speaker 1: kinds of programs I make nowhere where the music effectively 898 01:00:39,196 --> 01:00:43,836 Speaker 1: never repeats. And my ambition always then was to try 899 01:00:43,876 --> 01:00:48,276 Speaker 1: to make an experience a little bit like sitting by 900 01:00:48,316 --> 01:00:53,476 Speaker 1: a river. So you're sitting by the river. It's always 901 01:00:53,516 --> 01:00:56,636 Speaker 1: the same river, but as you know, it's never the 902 01:00:56,676 --> 01:01:00,076 Speaker 1: same river twice, so every time you look up at 903 01:01:00,116 --> 01:01:03,916 Speaker 1: the river, it's doing something a little bit different. Now, 904 01:01:03,916 --> 01:01:07,116 Speaker 1: it's not like watching a film where suddenly the river 905 01:01:07,556 --> 01:01:12,356 Speaker 1: turns blood red or gets much bigger or something like that. 906 01:01:12,596 --> 01:01:16,716 Speaker 1: I didn't want drama. I just wanted something like nature, 907 01:01:17,516 --> 01:01:24,476 Speaker 1: subtle subtle variations, subtle variations, yes, and variations that stay 908 01:01:24,596 --> 01:01:29,076 Speaker 1: within a kind of range of possibilities and explore that 909 01:01:29,236 --> 01:01:32,676 Speaker 1: range rather randomly. I just wanted the thing to be 910 01:01:33,476 --> 01:01:37,396 Speaker 1: what Harold Bud used to call eternally pretty. That was 911 01:01:37,476 --> 01:01:41,676 Speaker 1: his wif of second it. Dear Harold. He died about 912 01:01:41,836 --> 01:01:46,676 Speaker 1: two months ago from COVID very sad, so I dedicate 913 01:01:46,756 --> 01:01:50,316 Speaker 1: this thought to Harold. So yes. So, when when Harold 914 01:01:50,316 --> 01:01:52,556 Speaker 1: and I met, we were both pretty much on this 915 01:01:52,996 --> 01:01:58,276 Speaker 1: groove of thinking, what about making music that isn't designed 916 01:01:58,276 --> 01:02:04,716 Speaker 1: to upset anybody? Now, of course that sounds pretty uncontroversial now, 917 01:02:04,756 --> 01:02:09,076 Speaker 1: but in the mid to late seventies that was considered 918 01:02:09,196 --> 01:02:12,476 Speaker 1: to be the biggest sell out of all time. You know, 919 01:02:12,596 --> 01:02:16,756 Speaker 1: music was supposed to shake the world and create revolutions 920 01:02:16,756 --> 01:02:19,556 Speaker 1: and upset your parents and all sorts of things like that. 921 01:02:20,316 --> 01:02:22,876 Speaker 1: And we thought, what about making music that is just 922 01:02:23,036 --> 01:02:28,996 Speaker 1: really comfortable? Comfortable was probably the most controversial word you 923 01:02:29,036 --> 01:02:33,316 Speaker 1: could use. Then, what about music that makes you feel 924 01:02:33,356 --> 01:02:40,956 Speaker 1: warm and friendly and open and able to surrender? When 925 01:02:40,996 --> 01:02:43,556 Speaker 1: I realized that surrender was really the thing that I 926 01:02:43,636 --> 01:02:47,156 Speaker 1: was interested in for that kind of music. Obviously I 927 01:02:47,196 --> 01:02:49,836 Speaker 1: don't only make that kind of music, but for that 928 01:02:50,516 --> 01:02:55,436 Speaker 1: I wanted to make something that would make you think 929 01:02:55,716 --> 01:02:57,876 Speaker 1: I can let something happen to me. I don't have 930 01:02:57,956 --> 01:03:01,796 Speaker 1: to defend against everything. I can get out of that 931 01:03:02,156 --> 01:03:07,596 Speaker 1: posture of self defense and let something happen. And I 932 01:03:07,636 --> 01:03:10,956 Speaker 1: started then thinking a lot about the idea of surrender. 933 01:03:12,676 --> 01:03:18,396 Speaker 1: And I realized that since we come from a technological culture, 934 01:03:19,036 --> 01:03:22,396 Speaker 1: and since we're incredibly good at technology, we tend to 935 01:03:22,436 --> 01:03:27,636 Speaker 1: think that control is the solution to every problem. And sure, 936 01:03:27,676 --> 01:03:29,836 Speaker 1: if you can do it, it is a good solution. 937 01:03:30,356 --> 01:03:35,076 Speaker 1: If you can control when crops come up and how 938 01:03:35,076 --> 01:03:37,716 Speaker 1: they grow, and how to get rid of weeds and 939 01:03:37,756 --> 01:03:41,436 Speaker 1: what have you, why not. But there are lots of 940 01:03:41,436 --> 01:03:44,596 Speaker 1: situations we can't control because we don't know the rules 941 01:03:44,916 --> 01:03:47,676 Speaker 1: for them, we don't have the technology to deal with them. 942 01:03:48,156 --> 01:03:51,916 Speaker 1: So if you can't control, what is the best thing 943 01:03:51,996 --> 01:03:55,596 Speaker 1: to do? The best thing to do is to surrender 944 01:03:56,196 --> 01:04:01,236 Speaker 1: gracefully and to somehow allow that situation to carry you 945 01:04:01,316 --> 01:04:05,676 Speaker 1: along and not be damaged by it. So surrendering I 946 01:04:05,716 --> 01:04:08,436 Speaker 1: think of as an active verb, not a passive verb. 947 01:04:09,156 --> 01:04:11,596 Speaker 1: I think of it as a way of dealing with things. 948 01:04:11,876 --> 01:04:16,316 Speaker 1: You know, in our repertoire of responses to things, we 949 01:04:16,436 --> 01:04:20,196 Speaker 1: have at one end, extreme end control at the other surrender. 950 01:04:20,876 --> 01:04:26,436 Speaker 1: We can very rarely, except in scientific experiments, be completely 951 01:04:26,476 --> 01:04:29,196 Speaker 1: at the control end. There are always random factors and 952 01:04:29,476 --> 01:04:34,276 Speaker 1: unpredictable things, and equally it's quite difficult to be completely 953 01:04:34,316 --> 01:04:38,356 Speaker 1: at the surrender end. We're gradually generally in our lives, 954 01:04:38,436 --> 01:04:42,756 Speaker 1: we're moving along the access to find the right blend 955 01:04:42,876 --> 01:04:48,556 Speaker 1: for the occasion. But what we find ecstatic is nearly 956 01:04:48,596 --> 01:04:52,516 Speaker 1: always an experience of surrender. If you think of the 957 01:04:52,596 --> 01:04:59,516 Speaker 1: things that where we achieve transcendence if you like or ecstasy, 958 01:04:59,676 --> 01:05:06,716 Speaker 1: it's sex, drugs, art, and religion. Those are all the 959 01:05:06,756 --> 01:05:10,636 Speaker 1: places where we say, I'm going to let go and 960 01:05:10,676 --> 01:05:13,356 Speaker 1: just let this thing happen to me. I'm not going 961 01:05:13,356 --> 01:05:16,116 Speaker 1: to control it. I'm going to be taken somewhere. Now, 962 01:05:16,276 --> 01:05:19,516 Speaker 1: it's interesting to me that although we are constantly trying 963 01:05:19,516 --> 01:05:24,516 Speaker 1: to control, our biggest thrills come from letting go of control. 964 01:05:25,276 --> 01:05:28,076 Speaker 1: And so what becomes obvious that is that it's the 965 01:05:29,116 --> 01:05:32,996 Speaker 1: combination of those two that we should really be specializing in. 966 01:05:33,116 --> 01:05:35,996 Speaker 1: We should and we should not forget the surrender part. 967 01:05:36,036 --> 01:05:42,276 Speaker 1: We should not think that surrendering is passivity or cowardice 968 01:05:42,876 --> 01:05:47,156 Speaker 1: or incompetence. We should say it's one of the ways 969 01:05:47,236 --> 01:05:50,436 Speaker 1: we deal with the world. And it's one of the 970 01:05:50,476 --> 01:05:54,156 Speaker 1: things I think we learned from from the experience of 971 01:05:54,276 --> 01:05:59,716 Speaker 1: art and the experience of love and sex and religion 972 01:05:59,796 --> 01:06:04,796 Speaker 1: and drugs. As I said, they're always where we pitch 973 01:06:04,876 --> 01:06:08,076 Speaker 1: ourselves into a situation that we know we will be 974 01:06:08,156 --> 01:06:12,076 Speaker 1: out of control. And that's one of the other reasons 975 01:06:12,116 --> 01:06:16,636 Speaker 1: I think that we are so attracted by art because 976 01:06:16,836 --> 01:06:19,916 Speaker 1: we know that can happen. And of course art is 977 01:06:20,516 --> 01:06:24,036 Speaker 1: harmless essentially, so we can have the experience of being 978 01:06:24,036 --> 01:06:27,396 Speaker 1: out of control and not be flat and by it, 979 01:06:27,956 --> 01:06:33,196 Speaker 1: not be killed by it. We can switch the film off, 980 01:06:33,276 --> 01:06:36,636 Speaker 1: or we can leave the gallery or whatever. So I 981 01:06:36,676 --> 01:06:40,876 Speaker 1: think art is the place where we go to have 982 01:06:40,996 --> 01:06:44,916 Speaker 1: this feeling again, to remember that feeling of going with 983 01:06:44,956 --> 01:06:48,316 Speaker 1: the flow, of letting something happen to us, so that 984 01:06:49,236 --> 01:06:51,756 Speaker 1: in real life, in the rest of life, I should say, 985 01:06:52,236 --> 01:06:54,436 Speaker 1: we are still able to do that. We can remember 986 01:06:54,476 --> 01:06:58,396 Speaker 1: that feeling and we can know when to use it. 987 01:06:59,316 --> 01:07:03,556 Speaker 1: How strongly would you say, our kids? You for me, 988 01:07:03,636 --> 01:07:07,236 Speaker 1: there are certain I can see a film that has 989 01:07:07,356 --> 01:07:12,796 Speaker 1: an energy in it that could affect me for months, 990 01:07:13,636 --> 01:07:18,796 Speaker 1: and I'm very open to the energies contained in things, 991 01:07:18,836 --> 01:07:21,916 Speaker 1: so I'm protective of what I watch For that reasons, 992 01:07:22,316 --> 01:07:24,076 Speaker 1: I don't want to have a bad time. A lot 993 01:07:24,116 --> 01:07:27,916 Speaker 1: of the time, I don't choose that, And I just 994 01:07:27,956 --> 01:07:31,956 Speaker 1: want to ask how sensitive you are in that respect. Yes, 995 01:07:32,036 --> 01:07:34,956 Speaker 1: I think I'm very sensitive in that respect, and to 996 01:07:35,076 --> 01:07:38,356 Speaker 1: the extent that certain experiences I don't want to have 997 01:07:38,436 --> 01:07:41,916 Speaker 1: them very often because I don't want them to lose 998 01:07:41,956 --> 01:07:47,716 Speaker 1: their power. So just about the single album that probably 999 01:07:47,716 --> 01:07:50,956 Speaker 1: influenced me more than almost any other was the Third 1000 01:07:51,036 --> 01:07:55,636 Speaker 1: Valve Underground album. That was a really really important record 1001 01:07:55,676 --> 01:07:58,796 Speaker 1: in my life because so many things I had been 1002 01:07:58,836 --> 01:08:02,916 Speaker 1: wondering if they were possible suddenly appeared on that album, 1003 01:08:03,756 --> 01:08:06,796 Speaker 1: and also a lot of things I hadn't even conceived of. 1004 01:08:07,436 --> 01:08:11,556 Speaker 1: For that reason, I've never owned the album. I haven't 1005 01:08:11,596 --> 01:08:15,436 Speaker 1: even listened to it that many times because I really 1006 01:08:15,476 --> 01:08:18,476 Speaker 1: wanted it to retain that power. I didn't want it 1007 01:08:18,516 --> 01:08:22,756 Speaker 1: to become commonplace. Yes. Another piece like that is the 1008 01:08:22,916 --> 01:08:26,796 Speaker 1: Steve Wright piece It's Going to Rain, that tape piece 1009 01:08:26,876 --> 01:08:32,316 Speaker 1: from I think nineteen sixty four that absolutely devastated me. 1010 01:08:32,596 --> 01:08:36,596 Speaker 1: The first time I heard it. I understood so many 1011 01:08:36,636 --> 01:08:39,876 Speaker 1: things about music that I had not even dreamed of 1012 01:08:39,956 --> 01:08:44,476 Speaker 1: before that piece, and I still regard it as a 1013 01:08:44,556 --> 01:08:47,316 Speaker 1: key moment in my life, and I think I've probably 1014 01:08:47,356 --> 01:08:52,276 Speaker 1: listened to it four times. It turned a switch and 1015 01:08:52,396 --> 01:08:55,476 Speaker 1: the switch stayed turned. Yes, I didn't have to keep 1016 01:08:55,516 --> 01:08:59,236 Speaker 1: turning it again, you know, it stayed turned. Can you 1017 01:08:59,236 --> 01:09:03,596 Speaker 1: think of other works of art that impacted you in 1018 01:09:03,636 --> 01:09:06,596 Speaker 1: a profound way, maybe changed you over the course of 1019 01:09:06,636 --> 01:09:10,316 Speaker 1: your life, from from your earliest days to the first 1020 01:09:10,396 --> 01:09:16,636 Speaker 1: one that I really can remember very strongly. Sounds trivial 1021 01:09:16,716 --> 01:09:18,356 Speaker 1: to say it, but it was a Walt Disney film. 1022 01:09:18,996 --> 01:09:21,356 Speaker 1: We didn't have a television when I was young. Nobody 1023 01:09:21,396 --> 01:09:26,396 Speaker 1: did when I was young. My uncle had an eight 1024 01:09:26,436 --> 01:09:33,716 Speaker 1: millimeter projector and he he got a Walt Disney film 1025 01:09:34,876 --> 01:09:37,916 Speaker 1: and he set the projector up next to the kitchen wall. 1026 01:09:37,916 --> 01:09:39,836 Speaker 1: It was only about that far away from the wall, 1027 01:09:40,156 --> 01:09:44,196 Speaker 1: so the image was tiny like that, but it was 1028 01:09:44,476 --> 01:09:49,836 Speaker 1: intensely bright. We didn't have very bright light, bulb stain 1029 01:09:49,996 --> 01:09:53,516 Speaker 1: or anything. And on this wall I can remember even 1030 01:09:53,556 --> 01:09:57,596 Speaker 1: to this day that sensation of pure color because it 1031 01:09:57,676 --> 01:10:00,436 Speaker 1: was Donald Duck or something like that, so it was 1032 01:10:00,636 --> 01:10:03,796 Speaker 1: just flat panels of pure color. You never saw anything 1033 01:10:03,836 --> 01:10:07,956 Speaker 1: like that in life, and I can remember just being 1034 01:10:08,356 --> 01:10:13,596 Speaker 1: completely dazzled by this experience. Of that color and those 1035 01:10:13,996 --> 01:10:18,756 Speaker 1: saturated pigments. And I talked to my parents about this 1036 01:10:19,716 --> 01:10:23,396 Speaker 1: about thirty years ago and they said, oh, yeah, you 1037 01:10:23,396 --> 01:10:28,116 Speaker 1: were talking about that for weeks. I really was. I 1038 01:10:28,196 --> 01:10:30,836 Speaker 1: just thought, that is the most amazing thing I everseen. 1039 01:10:30,916 --> 01:10:33,316 Speaker 1: I want to see more of that. I wasn't at 1040 01:10:33,316 --> 01:10:36,876 Speaker 1: all interested in the story. I can't even remember what 1041 01:10:36,956 --> 01:10:41,596 Speaker 1: it was, but I just loved this sensation of intense color. 1042 01:10:42,836 --> 01:10:45,716 Speaker 1: So that was an important one. Do you remember the 1043 01:10:45,756 --> 01:10:50,276 Speaker 1: first musical one? There was one that I think was 1044 01:10:50,396 --> 01:10:52,956 Speaker 1: very important for me, but it's not obvious how that 1045 01:10:53,076 --> 01:10:57,956 Speaker 1: translated into anything that I did in after that. So 1046 01:10:57,996 --> 01:11:05,436 Speaker 1: I was eleven and another uncle was moving and left us. 1047 01:11:06,116 --> 01:11:09,796 Speaker 1: He wants somewhere to park his record collection, so my 1048 01:11:09,876 --> 01:11:12,436 Speaker 1: dad said he would take it. So suddenly we had 1049 01:11:12,436 --> 01:11:15,916 Speaker 1: this huge record collection and it was all big band 1050 01:11:15,996 --> 01:11:22,596 Speaker 1: jazz and Ray Conniff singers. So every morning as I 1051 01:11:22,636 --> 01:11:24,316 Speaker 1: got up to go to school, I put one of 1052 01:11:24,316 --> 01:11:30,676 Speaker 1: these records on and the Ray Coniff, Wow, I just thought, 1053 01:11:30,836 --> 01:11:36,276 Speaker 1: what a beautiful sound. Again, the music wasn't really that 1054 01:11:36,396 --> 01:11:40,556 Speaker 1: interesting to me, but it was this this incredible texture 1055 01:11:41,236 --> 01:11:43,716 Speaker 1: that I don't know how they got it. They had 1056 01:11:43,796 --> 01:11:47,396 Speaker 1: singers and strings and all the things. You know. I 1057 01:11:47,396 --> 01:11:48,996 Speaker 1: don't know if you know that any of those Ray 1058 01:11:49,036 --> 01:11:53,156 Speaker 1: Coniff records. I've had similar experiences with Henry Mensini recordings 1059 01:11:53,156 --> 01:11:55,796 Speaker 1: where it's just transcendent, not because of the material, but 1060 01:11:55,916 --> 01:12:00,196 Speaker 1: just the the sound of it. It feels like it's 1061 01:12:00,276 --> 01:12:04,596 Speaker 1: coming from another another planet. Yeah, well, those those recordings 1062 01:12:06,356 --> 01:12:10,276 Speaker 1: I realized later on as I started to recording myself, 1063 01:12:10,356 --> 01:12:14,196 Speaker 1: I would often think about those recordings, and I realized 1064 01:12:15,476 --> 01:12:22,076 Speaker 1: that they really came from the certain technical peak that 1065 01:12:22,236 --> 01:12:26,476 Speaker 1: happened in recording about that time, where people really knew 1066 01:12:26,596 --> 01:12:31,636 Speaker 1: their equipment really, really well. I subsequently worked with an 1067 01:12:31,636 --> 01:12:37,276 Speaker 1: engineer in London who was John Would. His name was. 1068 01:12:37,356 --> 01:12:41,276 Speaker 1: He was an old school engineer who he specialized in 1069 01:12:41,356 --> 01:12:47,196 Speaker 1: recording folk music, particularly the British folk rock like Fairport 1070 01:12:47,276 --> 01:12:51,476 Speaker 1: Conventionance on. And I watched him at work and he 1071 01:12:51,556 --> 01:12:55,036 Speaker 1: had a very simple studio. He had, you know, a 1072 01:12:55,076 --> 01:13:00,356 Speaker 1: few mics, a couple of compressors. Nothing, I mean, laughable 1073 01:13:00,396 --> 01:13:03,356 Speaker 1: compared to what we all work with now. But he 1074 01:13:03,476 --> 01:13:07,916 Speaker 1: had such a sensitivity to those things. He would walk 1075 01:13:07,916 --> 01:13:13,116 Speaker 1: out and move a mic an inch and he wasn't 1076 01:13:13,156 --> 01:13:15,716 Speaker 1: doing it to show off. He was quite a lazy man. 1077 01:13:15,756 --> 01:13:17,556 Speaker 1: If he could stay sitting in his chair, he would, 1078 01:13:17,916 --> 01:13:20,436 Speaker 1: but he would get up to change the position of 1079 01:13:20,436 --> 01:13:24,956 Speaker 1: a mic. And I thought, this man absolutely understands the 1080 01:13:24,996 --> 01:13:28,756 Speaker 1: material he's working with. He really knows where you put 1081 01:13:28,796 --> 01:13:32,116 Speaker 1: a microphone in relation to a banjo as opposed to 1082 01:13:32,116 --> 01:13:36,436 Speaker 1: in relation to a guitar or whatever. And that made 1083 01:13:36,476 --> 01:13:41,396 Speaker 1: me think again about that era of recording, when you 1084 01:13:41,516 --> 01:13:45,236 Speaker 1: had people who knew their studio really well. They'd worked 1085 01:13:45,236 --> 01:13:49,076 Speaker 1: in that same room for twenty years. They knew that 1086 01:13:49,116 --> 01:13:51,196 Speaker 1: you put someone in that corner for that sound and 1087 01:13:51,316 --> 01:13:54,756 Speaker 1: over there for this sound. It was a condition of 1088 01:13:56,156 --> 01:14:01,996 Speaker 1: technological expertise that hasn't yet been rivaled in the digital era, 1089 01:14:02,196 --> 01:14:05,236 Speaker 1: because there's just too much to know now, you know, 1090 01:14:05,316 --> 01:14:09,196 Speaker 1: nobody can ever have that kind of rapp or with 1091 01:14:09,196 --> 01:14:12,116 Speaker 1: with all of this equipment that we have. You know, 1092 01:14:12,276 --> 01:14:17,356 Speaker 1: every day more equipment is invented than those engineers experienced 1093 01:14:17,356 --> 01:14:21,596 Speaker 1: in their whole lifetime. So they were just better at that, 1094 01:14:22,196 --> 01:14:25,156 Speaker 1: we have to accept. I remember going to the National 1095 01:14:25,236 --> 01:14:29,196 Speaker 1: Sound Archive in London, which is a fabulous place by 1096 01:14:29,236 --> 01:14:34,116 Speaker 1: the way, and they had a display of I think 1097 01:14:34,156 --> 01:14:40,956 Speaker 1: it was eight different recordings of Tchaikovsky Symphony recorded in 1098 01:14:41,036 --> 01:14:47,836 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties. 1099 01:14:49,996 --> 01:14:53,956 Speaker 1: So it was there not to show you how the 1100 01:14:53,996 --> 01:14:56,956 Speaker 1: different orchestras dealt with it, but to show you how 1101 01:14:56,996 --> 01:15:02,716 Speaker 1: the recordings were different. And without doubt, the best sounding 1102 01:15:02,716 --> 01:15:06,356 Speaker 1: recording was from the nineteen sixties, and it was for 1103 01:15:06,396 --> 01:15:10,636 Speaker 1: exactly that reason. You just felt that these people really 1104 01:15:10,716 --> 01:15:16,916 Speaker 1: understood what they were doing. The later recordings were more 1105 01:15:16,956 --> 01:15:19,196 Speaker 1: accurate in a certain sense in that you could hear 1106 01:15:19,236 --> 01:15:22,516 Speaker 1: all the parts very well because they had spot miked everything, 1107 01:15:23,316 --> 01:15:26,636 Speaker 1: but none of them had the feeling of that nineteen 1108 01:15:26,676 --> 01:15:31,556 Speaker 1: sixties recording. So it's interesting to me that technically we 1109 01:15:32,636 --> 01:15:35,116 Speaker 1: get worse at the same time as we get better. Yes, 1110 01:15:35,396 --> 01:15:38,836 Speaker 1: we lose certain skills as well as gaining new ones 1111 01:15:40,036 --> 01:15:47,116 Speaker 1: in your evolution up to ambient music. It's fascinating to 1112 01:15:47,156 --> 01:15:51,036 Speaker 1: me that you could ever do anything different than that, 1113 01:15:51,476 --> 01:15:53,116 Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying. It's like it almost 1114 01:15:53,156 --> 01:15:56,436 Speaker 1: feels like that's the end of the line in terms 1115 01:15:56,476 --> 01:16:01,836 Speaker 1: of the minimalist approach you got there. So it's interesting 1116 01:16:01,916 --> 01:16:04,356 Speaker 1: that you do other things like you didn't do the 1117 01:16:04,436 --> 01:16:10,276 Speaker 1: Mandrean staying in the same language only. Yes, perhaps if 1118 01:16:10,316 --> 01:16:12,716 Speaker 1: I had carried on living in New York, I would 1119 01:16:12,716 --> 01:16:17,036 Speaker 1: have done because I would have always wanted more of 1120 01:16:17,076 --> 01:16:21,076 Speaker 1: that kind of music. But I've just had the very 1121 01:16:21,116 --> 01:16:25,476 Speaker 1: interesting experience of do you know about this Sonas project 1122 01:16:25,516 --> 01:16:28,876 Speaker 1: that I'm doing. I don't really tell me. Okay, Well, 1123 01:16:28,956 --> 01:16:33,276 Speaker 1: Sonas asked me to curate a channel for them. Basically 1124 01:16:33,316 --> 01:16:38,076 Speaker 1: it's like my own radio station, and I like the 1125 01:16:38,156 --> 01:16:41,276 Speaker 1: idea of that, but I thought, what I'd really like 1126 01:16:41,396 --> 01:16:45,596 Speaker 1: to do is to curate a station that plays only 1127 01:16:45,676 --> 01:16:50,556 Speaker 1: my music, because I've got so much unreleased stuff. You know, 1128 01:16:50,636 --> 01:16:53,636 Speaker 1: I work in the studio every day pretty much, and 1129 01:16:54,876 --> 01:16:58,396 Speaker 1: some of it is just experiments where I try something 1130 01:16:58,396 --> 01:17:00,996 Speaker 1: out just to see what it would do if you 1131 01:17:01,116 --> 01:17:04,396 Speaker 1: tried to make a piece of music like that. And 1132 01:17:05,236 --> 01:17:09,276 Speaker 1: I have thousands of thousands of recordings like that. I 1133 01:17:09,356 --> 01:17:12,036 Speaker 1: just mix everything, you know, when I finished the day, 1134 01:17:12,076 --> 01:17:15,596 Speaker 1: I mix whatever I've done that day. Sometimes it can 1135 01:17:15,636 --> 01:17:19,996 Speaker 1: be five or six different pieces. Even so, I have 1136 01:17:20,156 --> 01:17:24,076 Speaker 1: this vast library of stuff. Some of it is really 1137 01:17:24,196 --> 01:17:27,476 Speaker 1: quite interesting, and I thought, how nice would it be 1138 01:17:27,556 --> 01:17:31,396 Speaker 1: to have a radio channel where you just switch it 1139 01:17:31,436 --> 01:17:35,636 Speaker 1: on and outcome pieces of music that you've never heard before, 1140 01:17:35,836 --> 01:17:39,796 Speaker 1: will probably never hear again, and they're all quite different 1141 01:17:39,836 --> 01:17:43,036 Speaker 1: from one another. There's quite a range of stuff. Some 1142 01:17:43,116 --> 01:17:45,236 Speaker 1: of it is very ambient, some of it is very 1143 01:17:46,036 --> 01:17:50,316 Speaker 1: hard beat stuff. Some of it's really electronic. Some of 1144 01:17:50,316 --> 01:17:55,436 Speaker 1: it is touchingly human, which is how you describe something 1145 01:17:55,436 --> 01:18:00,116 Speaker 1: that is rather amateur. So for the first time in 1146 01:18:00,156 --> 01:18:03,236 Speaker 1: my life, I thought, well, I'll just start listening through 1147 01:18:03,276 --> 01:18:06,676 Speaker 1: to those things, And so they play on random shuffle 1148 01:18:06,956 --> 01:18:09,636 Speaker 1: out of my computer, and I have to say, I 1149 01:18:09,836 --> 01:18:14,436 Speaker 1: so like the collisions, the strange combinations of things. You know, 1150 01:18:14,556 --> 01:18:18,196 Speaker 1: something from nineteen ninety one next to something I did 1151 01:18:18,396 --> 01:18:22,396 Speaker 1: last year next to something from twenty to five, and 1152 01:18:22,636 --> 01:18:30,276 Speaker 1: no rationale to the choices that they're randomly selected. And 1153 01:18:30,956 --> 01:18:35,316 Speaker 1: although some of the music is pretty challenging, a lot 1154 01:18:35,356 --> 01:18:39,036 Speaker 1: of it is quite easy to listen to. And as 1155 01:18:39,076 --> 01:18:43,956 Speaker 1: I would say to people, you'll probably only hear it once, 1156 01:18:44,396 --> 01:18:47,996 Speaker 1: so if you don't like it, just wait, something else 1157 01:18:48,036 --> 01:18:51,276 Speaker 1: will come along soon. What's the variation of length between 1158 01:18:51,276 --> 01:18:54,796 Speaker 1: the pieces. The shortest piece on there, I think is 1159 01:18:55,796 --> 01:19:01,196 Speaker 1: about a minute and a half. The longest is I 1160 01:19:01,236 --> 01:19:08,676 Speaker 1: think about eighteen minutes, So it's quite a range. I mean, 1161 01:19:08,836 --> 01:19:12,036 Speaker 1: I do have much longer pieces as well, but I 1162 01:19:12,076 --> 01:19:15,396 Speaker 1: thought it would be a little bit demanding if you 1163 01:19:15,516 --> 01:19:18,636 Speaker 1: switched on and you weren't that fond of the piece, 1164 01:19:18,796 --> 01:19:20,676 Speaker 1: and yet it's going to last for another four and 1165 01:19:20,716 --> 01:19:24,836 Speaker 1: a quarter hours. The longest piece in my archive is 1166 01:19:24,956 --> 01:19:27,796 Speaker 1: eight hours long. And will the way, will the way 1167 01:19:27,796 --> 01:19:30,636 Speaker 1: it gets programmed be random, It'll just be on a 1168 01:19:30,756 --> 01:19:35,596 Speaker 1: random loop. Well, it'll it'll be live random, so it'll 1169 01:19:35,636 --> 01:19:40,516 Speaker 1: be selecting as it goes, you know, yes, just like 1170 01:19:40,996 --> 01:19:44,556 Speaker 1: you know in iTunes you have shuffle mode. Can we 1171 01:19:44,596 --> 01:19:47,596 Speaker 1: talk more about we started talking about the pieces of 1172 01:19:47,716 --> 01:19:51,716 Speaker 1: music or art that along the way we've only got 1173 01:19:51,836 --> 01:19:56,236 Speaker 1: we're still in childhood that struck you as changed either 1174 01:19:56,316 --> 01:19:58,596 Speaker 1: changed your work or just changed you. You know that 1175 01:19:58,916 --> 01:20:04,356 Speaker 1: those new chapters starting based on something you've experienced. Well, 1176 01:20:05,476 --> 01:20:09,996 Speaker 1: still pretty much in my childhood was John Cage and 1177 01:20:10,836 --> 01:20:14,276 Speaker 1: all of the cluster of things that were happening and 1178 01:20:14,316 --> 01:20:18,716 Speaker 1: composing in the mid sixties, which was when I became 1179 01:20:18,756 --> 01:20:23,836 Speaker 1: aware of Cage. And this was really the important idea 1180 01:20:23,916 --> 01:20:28,036 Speaker 1: here for me was that art could be a kind 1181 01:20:28,076 --> 01:20:33,596 Speaker 1: of discipline, a spiritual discipline of some kind. So in 1182 01:20:33,636 --> 01:20:41,036 Speaker 1: that sort of assessment of art, the process is much 1183 01:20:41,076 --> 01:20:44,356 Speaker 1: more important. The process of doing the thing is more 1184 01:20:44,396 --> 01:20:49,796 Speaker 1: important than the result. So my way of explaining that 1185 01:20:49,956 --> 01:20:56,036 Speaker 1: was I used to say process, not product. But I 1186 01:20:56,076 --> 01:20:59,756 Speaker 1: also used to say, think about beginnings rather than endings. 1187 01:21:00,236 --> 01:21:03,476 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a sort of not goal oriented 1188 01:21:03,516 --> 01:21:07,116 Speaker 1: way of making art, where where it's not like I've 1189 01:21:07,116 --> 01:21:08,996 Speaker 1: got a vision of this picture I want to pay 1190 01:21:09,436 --> 01:21:12,276 Speaker 1: and I'm going to realize that vision. It's more like, 1191 01:21:13,036 --> 01:21:16,156 Speaker 1: there's a procedure that I want to do and it 1192 01:21:16,196 --> 01:21:18,836 Speaker 1: will produce something, and I'm not sure what it is. 1193 01:21:19,996 --> 01:21:22,436 Speaker 1: You know, it's I don't yet know what it's going 1194 01:21:22,476 --> 01:21:25,036 Speaker 1: to be. So that became very important to me. The 1195 01:21:25,076 --> 01:21:30,396 Speaker 1: idea of the composer as somebody who started something rather 1196 01:21:30,436 --> 01:21:34,916 Speaker 1: than finished it. So this was very much a thought 1197 01:21:34,996 --> 01:21:38,516 Speaker 1: in the sixties with people like Cage and Steve Ryke 1198 01:21:38,556 --> 01:21:43,476 Speaker 1: and Philip Glass, Terry Riley, Christian Wolf, Morton Feldman, all 1199 01:21:43,516 --> 01:21:48,756 Speaker 1: of those kinds of composers were really initiating procedures of 1200 01:21:48,796 --> 01:21:54,076 Speaker 1: some kind, and those procedures would by the way, produce music, 1201 01:21:54,756 --> 01:21:59,516 Speaker 1: but the compositional attention was on the procedures, and this 1202 01:22:00,436 --> 01:22:05,996 Speaker 1: very much appealed to me, and it certainly became what 1203 01:22:06,036 --> 01:22:09,836 Speaker 1: I subsequently called generative music. Is really that where where 1204 01:22:09,836 --> 01:22:14,356 Speaker 1: what you're really doing is designing a sort of system 1205 01:22:14,396 --> 01:22:18,956 Speaker 1: that makes music, and you tweak the system until it 1206 01:22:18,996 --> 01:22:23,596 Speaker 1: makes the music that you wanted. And so that that 1207 01:22:23,716 --> 01:22:27,996 Speaker 1: was that was important. Then of course all this time 1208 01:22:28,036 --> 01:22:32,676 Speaker 1: I was listening to pop music as well, but there 1209 01:22:32,676 --> 01:22:35,636 Speaker 1: are so many examples there of things that really changed 1210 01:22:35,716 --> 01:22:41,196 Speaker 1: my listening life. I mean, from early on, I would 1211 01:22:41,236 --> 01:22:43,956 Speaker 1: say one of the most important records for me was 1212 01:22:44,876 --> 01:22:47,596 Speaker 1: this song called The Mountains High by Dick and Dede. 1213 01:22:48,956 --> 01:22:54,836 Speaker 1: It's a brilliant example of pinning a record around one 1214 01:22:56,596 --> 01:23:01,356 Speaker 1: very simple, great idea, which is this drum figure that 1215 01:23:02,236 --> 01:23:05,316 Speaker 1: so the music go dun dun dun dundum dun dun 1216 01:23:05,396 --> 01:23:12,236 Speaker 1: dun dum dum du du. This really loud drum figure 1217 01:23:12,316 --> 01:23:18,276 Speaker 1: comes in every bar, and then Dick and Deed this 1218 01:23:18,636 --> 01:23:23,236 Speaker 1: very strange harmony they seeing together. So again this was 1219 01:23:24,556 --> 01:23:28,596 Speaker 1: this was the early experimental days of rock music, when 1220 01:23:28,716 --> 01:23:33,036 Speaker 1: it was obvious to anyone who could think that this 1221 01:23:33,156 --> 01:23:36,596 Speaker 1: was not really about music. It was about space. It 1222 01:23:36,636 --> 01:23:42,116 Speaker 1: was about creating new spaces. And this record, The Mountain's High, 1223 01:23:42,316 --> 01:23:47,276 Speaker 1: had this weird, ringing, strange quality to it. It was 1224 01:23:47,316 --> 01:23:50,196 Speaker 1: another world, you know, suddenly there was this other world, 1225 01:23:51,196 --> 01:23:54,996 Speaker 1: very exotic to me growing up in rural Suffolk. I 1226 01:23:55,076 --> 01:23:58,036 Speaker 1: had no idea what that world was, but it was. 1227 01:23:58,436 --> 01:24:01,836 Speaker 1: It was the same effect as reading sci fi. You know, Wow, 1228 01:24:02,276 --> 01:24:05,516 Speaker 1: what a world that could exist? Could it exist? Do 1229 01:24:05,556 --> 01:24:08,356 Speaker 1: you remember how you heard it? Yes? Well, you see, 1230 01:24:08,396 --> 01:24:11,876 Speaker 1: I grew up in a part of England, the most 1231 01:24:11,916 --> 01:24:15,036 Speaker 1: easterly part of England, which was where all the Cold 1232 01:24:15,076 --> 01:24:18,916 Speaker 1: War air bases were. So after the Second World War, 1233 01:24:20,596 --> 01:24:23,956 Speaker 1: the deal we had with America was okay, thanks for 1234 01:24:23,996 --> 01:24:26,236 Speaker 1: all the weapons. Now you can have half of the 1235 01:24:26,276 --> 01:24:28,876 Speaker 1: east of England to put your bloody gray air bases on, 1236 01:24:29,556 --> 01:24:32,716 Speaker 1: which is what they did. There were many of them 1237 01:24:32,756 --> 01:24:35,916 Speaker 1: within a few miles from where I grew up. So 1238 01:24:36,396 --> 01:24:41,756 Speaker 1: the little town I grew up in had coffee bars, 1239 01:24:42,516 --> 01:24:45,116 Speaker 1: lots of them because there were so many Gis and 1240 01:24:45,716 --> 01:24:51,076 Speaker 1: English soldiers and airmen as well. And every single coffee 1241 01:24:51,076 --> 01:24:54,036 Speaker 1: bar had a jukebox, and nearly all of the music 1242 01:24:54,076 --> 01:24:58,036 Speaker 1: they were playing was American music because that was their audience. 1243 01:24:58,956 --> 01:25:03,836 Speaker 1: So very early on I was hearing stuff that you 1244 01:25:04,036 --> 01:25:07,796 Speaker 1: just wouldn't ever hear on the radio in England. Nobody 1245 01:25:07,836 --> 01:25:10,836 Speaker 1: was playing that kind of thing. So I was hearing 1246 01:25:11,316 --> 01:25:15,236 Speaker 1: do opened early R and B and so on. Then 1247 01:25:15,356 --> 01:25:18,836 Speaker 1: my sister, who was four years older than me, fell 1248 01:25:18,916 --> 01:25:23,076 Speaker 1: in love with a GI and so she used to 1249 01:25:23,156 --> 01:25:26,596 Speaker 1: go to one of the bases. We had a big 1250 01:25:26,596 --> 01:25:32,356 Speaker 1: base called Bentwaters, which had six or eight thousand American 1251 01:25:33,516 --> 01:25:36,516 Speaker 1: gis on it, and they had a great, big PX 1252 01:25:36,556 --> 01:25:41,596 Speaker 1: store where she used to buy singles, and so I 1253 01:25:41,676 --> 01:25:46,716 Speaker 1: had quite a good collection of quite sort of radical 1254 01:25:47,196 --> 01:25:53,076 Speaker 1: early rock and roll fantastic. So that sort of cumulatively 1255 01:25:53,156 --> 01:25:55,676 Speaker 1: had a big effect on me. It made me like 1256 01:25:57,796 --> 01:26:03,796 Speaker 1: a way of delivering music which was much more impassioned 1257 01:26:03,796 --> 01:26:06,676 Speaker 1: than what was happening in English music at that time. 1258 01:26:07,276 --> 01:26:10,756 Speaker 1: And it took me years to realize that what that 1259 01:26:10,836 --> 01:26:15,116 Speaker 1: way of music, that way of delivering was was called 1260 01:26:15,236 --> 01:26:19,116 Speaker 1: black music. I didn't know that these were black people. 1261 01:26:19,996 --> 01:26:23,116 Speaker 1: I just heard this type of music and I thought, wow, 1262 01:26:23,156 --> 01:26:27,316 Speaker 1: that's amazing. And it reminds me actually of a story. 1263 01:26:28,316 --> 01:26:30,916 Speaker 1: This is a true story. During the war, when lots 1264 01:26:30,956 --> 01:26:35,556 Speaker 1: of gis were coming over to England, somebody interviewed an 1265 01:26:35,556 --> 01:26:40,596 Speaker 1: old farmer from Devon and said, so, how do you 1266 01:26:40,596 --> 01:26:46,156 Speaker 1: feel about the Americans coming over here? And the farmer said, well, 1267 01:26:46,196 --> 01:26:48,916 Speaker 1: they're all right, aren't they, except for the white ones. 1268 01:26:52,996 --> 01:27:00,196 Speaker 1: He obviously thought that Americans were basically black people, but 1269 01:27:00,236 --> 01:27:03,476 Speaker 1: there were a few of these sort of boisterous white 1270 01:27:03,516 --> 01:27:07,836 Speaker 1: people that he wished hadn't turned up with them. Well, yes, 1271 01:27:07,956 --> 01:27:10,796 Speaker 1: So I was listening to this music and not aware 1272 01:27:10,956 --> 01:27:14,836 Speaker 1: for a very long time because there were no music 1273 01:27:14,916 --> 01:27:19,596 Speaker 1: magazines then, no, there was no nothing like on television, 1274 01:27:20,236 --> 01:27:22,956 Speaker 1: and it was a long time before I realized that 1275 01:27:22,956 --> 01:27:27,836 Speaker 1: this was actually a music that came from a particular 1276 01:27:27,996 --> 01:27:31,596 Speaker 1: racial demographic. What was what was the part music in 1277 01:27:31,636 --> 01:27:35,316 Speaker 1: England at that time, just to for so we could 1278 01:27:35,316 --> 01:27:38,116 Speaker 1: picture what everyone else was hearing while you were hearing this, 1279 01:27:38,996 --> 01:27:43,476 Speaker 1: Well it was it was very often really truly pathetic 1280 01:27:43,636 --> 01:27:47,796 Speaker 1: versions of those American songs. So you know, there would 1281 01:27:47,796 --> 01:27:51,876 Speaker 1: be a hit like like watered Down. Well, anything that 1282 01:27:51,996 --> 01:27:54,316 Speaker 1: became a big hit in America would get covered in 1283 01:27:54,356 --> 01:27:58,596 Speaker 1: England by an English artist. So and the covers were 1284 01:27:58,716 --> 01:28:04,636 Speaker 1: just appallingly sad. They were done by sort of groups 1285 01:28:04,636 --> 01:28:10,196 Speaker 1: of sessions musicians reading sheet music. It lacked everything that 1286 01:28:10,596 --> 01:28:13,996 Speaker 1: I wanted from music. All it had was a nice tune, 1287 01:28:14,356 --> 01:28:17,676 Speaker 1: you know, there was nothing in the performance that was 1288 01:28:17,716 --> 01:28:21,316 Speaker 1: convincing at all. So there was there was a man 1289 01:28:21,396 --> 01:28:26,476 Speaker 1: called Craig Douglas who covered every every American number one. 1290 01:28:26,556 --> 01:28:28,756 Speaker 1: It seemed to me there would be the Craig Douglas 1291 01:28:28,876 --> 01:28:31,356 Speaker 1: version of it came out, and you know, when you 1292 01:28:31,436 --> 01:28:35,036 Speaker 1: put the two together. On the one hand, this this 1293 01:28:35,196 --> 01:28:42,316 Speaker 1: sort of raw, quite angry sound that American music had then, 1294 01:28:41,556 --> 01:28:46,116 Speaker 1: even even the even the love songs had a sort 1295 01:28:46,156 --> 01:28:51,716 Speaker 1: of urgency and a grip to them. And then you'd 1296 01:28:51,716 --> 01:28:54,836 Speaker 1: hear the English version. It had all been nicely sort 1297 01:28:54,836 --> 01:28:57,196 Speaker 1: of tidied up and all the rough hedges taken off, 1298 01:28:57,236 --> 01:29:01,596 Speaker 1: and it's very very pleasant. You know. I just thought, 1299 01:29:02,196 --> 01:29:04,636 Speaker 1: oh god, it was one of the most important lessons 1300 01:29:04,636 --> 01:29:07,876 Speaker 1: to me that the content of a piece of art 1301 01:29:08,956 --> 01:29:12,836 Speaker 1: is the delivery. You know. The content isn't what the 1302 01:29:12,876 --> 01:29:16,796 Speaker 1: words say, it isn't what the melody says. It's the 1303 01:29:16,996 --> 01:29:19,756 Speaker 1: bloody delivery. That's the thing you respond to. And of 1304 01:29:19,756 --> 01:29:24,076 Speaker 1: course this was what made the Beatles so amazing, because 1305 01:29:24,396 --> 01:29:29,036 Speaker 1: they knew that delivery. They'd been listening to Chuck Berry 1306 01:29:29,076 --> 01:29:33,476 Speaker 1: and you know, John Lee Hooker and everybody else, Howland Wolf, 1307 01:29:34,396 --> 01:29:39,596 Speaker 1: so they they came with that style. And that was 1308 01:29:40,076 --> 01:29:43,036 Speaker 1: I mean, because They wrote great songs too, but it 1309 01:29:43,076 --> 01:29:46,236 Speaker 1: was that style that made it great. Do you remember 1310 01:29:46,276 --> 01:29:48,876 Speaker 1: the first time you heard the Beatles? Yes, I remember 1311 01:29:48,916 --> 01:29:52,556 Speaker 1: it very well. And how was What was the occasion 1312 01:29:52,596 --> 01:29:56,716 Speaker 1: and what was your reaction. I was in the Flamingo 1313 01:29:57,556 --> 01:30:04,636 Speaker 1: Cafe in Woodbridge Thoroughfare and on the jukebox came the 1314 01:30:04,716 --> 01:30:09,796 Speaker 1: single Love Me Do, and I honestly had never heard 1315 01:30:09,796 --> 01:30:15,676 Speaker 1: anything like that. I thought it was so beautifully awkward 1316 01:30:15,716 --> 01:30:17,236 Speaker 1: in a way, I think is what it was. It 1317 01:30:17,316 --> 01:30:22,996 Speaker 1: just didn't sound smooth, and that was good. I didn't 1318 01:30:23,036 --> 01:30:29,196 Speaker 1: like smooth, and it's very minimalistic. You know. The interesting 1319 01:30:29,236 --> 01:30:32,036 Speaker 1: thing about the Beatles is that they hardly ever did 1320 01:30:32,036 --> 01:30:35,756 Speaker 1: a three part harmony, you know, the thing that everybody 1321 01:30:35,796 --> 01:30:39,036 Speaker 1: does all the bloody time now because it's easy and 1322 01:30:39,076 --> 01:30:43,236 Speaker 1: it's irresistible. So everything has three, four, five part harmonies. 1323 01:30:43,996 --> 01:30:46,796 Speaker 1: But you know a lot of the great bands of 1324 01:30:46,956 --> 01:30:50,796 Speaker 1: that period that the Evely's is another example, did two 1325 01:30:50,836 --> 01:30:55,956 Speaker 1: part harmonies. And I think that's that restraint. That missing 1326 01:30:55,996 --> 01:31:00,596 Speaker 1: out of something is very engaging for a listener because 1327 01:31:00,956 --> 01:31:04,276 Speaker 1: it invites you to fill the whole, to imagine what 1328 01:31:04,356 --> 01:31:09,716 Speaker 1: would fill the gap. It's another lesson of minalism. That 1329 01:31:10,076 --> 01:31:14,636 Speaker 1: if you leave stuff out, you invite listeners in. Yes, 1330 01:31:14,756 --> 01:31:17,836 Speaker 1: you give them something to do, a place to go. 1331 01:31:18,636 --> 01:31:23,836 Speaker 1: They often also often sang unison as opposed to going 1332 01:31:23,876 --> 01:31:27,076 Speaker 1: to automatically going to a harmony, yes, which which you 1333 01:31:27,156 --> 01:31:30,956 Speaker 1: hear in a lot of sort of Central European music, 1334 01:31:30,996 --> 01:31:35,916 Speaker 1: where like Georgian and Balkan music in general, where people 1335 01:31:37,396 --> 01:31:44,116 Speaker 1: move between being harmonists and unison and they go back 1336 01:31:44,116 --> 01:31:48,236 Speaker 1: and forth without this sort of classical assumption that you've 1337 01:31:48,276 --> 01:31:51,276 Speaker 1: always got to be doing something different. Yeah, I have 1338 01:31:51,316 --> 01:31:53,796 Speaker 1: one last question to ask, just because I'm really curious, 1339 01:31:54,156 --> 01:31:58,876 Speaker 1: what's your relationship to spirituality? Well, as you can tell 1340 01:31:58,956 --> 01:32:04,476 Speaker 1: from from the way I talk too much, I think 1341 01:32:04,516 --> 01:32:07,916 Speaker 1: about this kind of thing quite a lot. What I 1342 01:32:07,956 --> 01:32:11,596 Speaker 1: always want to do is to cut away as much 1343 01:32:11,596 --> 01:32:15,356 Speaker 1: of the shit as possible and see what's left. So 1344 01:32:16,316 --> 01:32:19,156 Speaker 1: I don't want to be a believer. I want to 1345 01:32:19,196 --> 01:32:23,996 Speaker 1: be somebody who, as far as possible, understands and knows things. 1346 01:32:24,236 --> 01:32:28,716 Speaker 1: Believing things leaves me a little bit unsatisfied. If I 1347 01:32:28,716 --> 01:32:31,796 Speaker 1: find myself believing something, I want to test the belief. 1348 01:32:32,396 --> 01:32:35,316 Speaker 1: I want to say, how do I find out how 1349 01:32:35,396 --> 01:32:38,996 Speaker 1: valid this is? How true? This is? Now? In real 1350 01:32:39,036 --> 01:32:41,676 Speaker 1: belief in proper faith, You're not supposed to do that. 1351 01:32:42,316 --> 01:32:46,756 Speaker 1: Faith is supposed to be, by definition, the acceptance of 1352 01:32:46,836 --> 01:32:50,796 Speaker 1: something that you cannot find evidence for. If you can 1353 01:32:50,796 --> 01:32:54,276 Speaker 1: find evidence for, it's not faith anymore. It's called knowledge then. 1354 01:32:55,196 --> 01:32:58,396 Speaker 1: So this is a long way round of saying that 1355 01:32:58,916 --> 01:33:04,476 Speaker 1: I'm not anti spiritual, I'm not anti religion. Actually, in fact, 1356 01:33:04,516 --> 01:33:08,556 Speaker 1: I can see how religion really cements some communities together 1357 01:33:09,276 --> 01:33:13,356 Speaker 1: and really helps people in their lives. But I'm not 1358 01:33:13,516 --> 01:33:17,756 Speaker 1: by nature a believer, so it's difficult for me to 1359 01:33:17,876 --> 01:33:21,356 Speaker 1: use that kind of cement. My cement has to come 1360 01:33:21,396 --> 01:33:24,756 Speaker 1: from trying to understand things and to see how they work, 1361 01:33:24,836 --> 01:33:29,516 Speaker 1: and to share those ideas with other people. So I 1362 01:33:29,556 --> 01:33:35,076 Speaker 1: think one of the other things that surrendering prepares you 1363 01:33:35,116 --> 01:33:41,636 Speaker 1: for is the experience of uncertainty, the experience of not 1364 01:33:41,876 --> 01:33:46,396 Speaker 1: knowing the answer but still having to do something. You know, 1365 01:33:46,996 --> 01:33:49,996 Speaker 1: the fact that you don't know the answer can't cripple you, 1366 01:33:50,676 --> 01:33:53,476 Speaker 1: And of course a lot of people are crippled by 1367 01:33:53,516 --> 01:33:56,876 Speaker 1: not knowing the answer, and so they just choose an 1368 01:33:56,876 --> 01:34:01,236 Speaker 1: inappropriate answer just for the want of an answer. So 1369 01:34:01,596 --> 01:34:04,836 Speaker 1: you just have to accept that you don't know the 1370 01:34:04,876 --> 01:34:09,596 Speaker 1: answers and you will make mistakes, and you will need 1371 01:34:09,636 --> 01:34:15,396 Speaker 1: to change your values and your tools, and some of 1372 01:34:15,436 --> 01:34:18,196 Speaker 1: them might last you a lifetime. But you're lucky if 1373 01:34:18,236 --> 01:34:21,676 Speaker 1: that happens. I haven't got any that lasted me a lifetime. 1374 01:34:24,196 --> 01:34:27,556 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this amazing pleasure speaking 1375 01:34:27,556 --> 01:34:29,996 Speaker 1: with you. Yes, you too, I must say I really 1376 01:34:30,036 --> 01:34:36,796 Speaker 1: enjoyed that. Thanks to Brian Eno for sharing his artistic 1377 01:34:36,836 --> 01:34:40,356 Speaker 1: philosophy with us. To hear a favorite Brian Eno tracks, 1378 01:34:40,636 --> 01:34:43,676 Speaker 1: head to Broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to 1379 01:34:43,716 --> 01:34:46,796 Speaker 1: subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash 1380 01:34:46,956 --> 01:34:50,676 Speaker 1: broken Record Podcast. We can find all of our new episodes. 1381 01:34:51,316 --> 01:34:54,276 Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 1382 01:34:54,316 --> 01:34:58,636 Speaker 1: Record is produced with helpful ly Arose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, 1383 01:34:58,876 --> 01:35:03,356 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. 1384 01:35:03,396 --> 01:35:06,916 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Mila Bell. Broken Record is a 1385 01:35:06,916 --> 01:35:10,236 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, please 1386 01:35:10,276 --> 01:35:12,916 Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast 1387 01:35:12,996 --> 01:35:16,276 Speaker 1: that our theme musics by Henny Beats. I'm justin Whitchman.