WEBVTT - The Widow Who Disrupted Champagne (with Ben Walter)

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Tim Harford here with a bonus episode of Cautionary Tales.

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<v Speaker 1>I have got an incredible story for you today about

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<v Speaker 1>a pioneering businesswoman who disrupted the champagne industry and in

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<v Speaker 1>so doing, changed it forever. This episode is sponsored by

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<v Speaker 1>Chase for Business, and I'm joined by Ben Walter, who

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<v Speaker 1>is the CEO of Chase for Business and those of

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<v Speaker 1>his own rather brilliant podcast, The Unshakeables. Ben. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>Cautionary Tales. Tim, thank you for having me. It's great

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<v Speaker 1>to be here. Well, it's great to have you, so, Ben,

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<v Speaker 1>what comes to your mind when I say the word champagne?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, obviously celebrations. I suppose the other thing that

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<v Speaker 2>comes to mind from me is quality, don't cheap out,

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<v Speaker 2>because for any of us who've ever been drunk on

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<v Speaker 2>cheap champagne, you know that that's a one time affair

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<v Speaker 2>and you never do that again.

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<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't know anything about that, I'm sure. So these

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<v Speaker 1>associations of luxury and possibly of excess come to mind.

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<v Speaker 1>What if I told you that all of this comes

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<v Speaker 1>down to a single rather remarkable nineteenth century businesswoman.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that. On our podcast, we've had a

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<v Speaker 2>number of incredible female entrepreneurs whove achieved quite a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>but hearing that it happened in the nineteenth century is

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<v Speaker 2>a whole different follow Axe.

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<v Speaker 1>She is quite a character. Barb Nicole, Clico Pon Sardin.

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<v Speaker 1>She essentially created champagne as a category as we know

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<v Speaker 1>it today. And she also took a struggling family run

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<v Speaker 1>champagne house and she turned into a global empire. And

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<v Speaker 1>I should say it was partly about the way she

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<v Speaker 1>marketed things. She drove behavioral change around sparkling wine.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to picture what you have in your head.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the nineteenth century. Women I don't think in

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<v Speaker 2>France could have bank accounts at that time, and this

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<v Speaker 2>woman revolutionized an entire industry.

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<v Speaker 1>It is an astonishing story, and Ben, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>tell you all about it, and I hope you will

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<v Speaker 1>give me some of your reactions to the story, because

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<v Speaker 1>I know you're a business expert. You've spoken to so

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<v Speaker 1>many entrepreneurs on your podcast, The Unshakeables. But before we

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<v Speaker 1>get to that, I need to say I'm Tim Harford

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<v Speaker 1>and you're listening to cautionary tales. Madame Klico was born

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<v Speaker 1>Barbnicole Ponsardan in seventeen seventy seven, so we're going back

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<v Speaker 1>a quarter of a millennium. She was the daughter of

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<v Speaker 1>a wealthy textiles industrialist, and she came of age during

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<v Speaker 1>the French Revolution, all of that turbulence and social change,

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<v Speaker 1>the Nsent regime disintegrating the middle class on the rise,

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<v Speaker 1>and when she was twenty one, she married Francois Clico.

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<v Speaker 1>He was the only son of her father's competitor, Philippe Clico,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was another textiles businessman. So the marriage was

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<v Speaker 1>effectively a business deal between the Clico and Ponsadin families.

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<v Speaker 1>And at this point, normally we'd tell a story about

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<v Speaker 1>Barbneicole becoming a wife and a mother. She would be expected,

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<v Speaker 1>like all married women, to live in the shadow of

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<v Speaker 1>their husbands. However, she and Francois ended up forming a

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<v Speaker 1>business partnership. She was fascinated by wine making, so was

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<v Speaker 1>her husband Francois. He was keen to grow his family's

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<v Speaker 1>small wine business, and so the young couple together set

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<v Speaker 1>about acquiring vineyards and learning all about the industry.

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<v Speaker 2>These were two textile families right in New York. We'd

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<v Speaker 2>call it the rag business. So were they supportive of

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<v Speaker 2>them going into the wine business.

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<v Speaker 1>Not really, no, they weren't. I meanp Clico wasn't keen

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<v Speaker 1>on his son's idea. He thought the textile business was

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<v Speaker 1>going perfectly well. The wine business was something of a distraction.

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<v Speaker 1>And you've got a bear in mind that Napoleonic Wars

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<v Speaker 1>are on the horizon, and with Europe ripped apart first

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<v Speaker 1>by revolution then by war, wine is not looking like

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<v Speaker 1>a profitable business because it's going to disrupt all of

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<v Speaker 1>the trade and all of the commerce. And of course

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<v Speaker 1>he was completely right. So Francois and Barbnicole's business started

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<v Speaker 1>to struggle, and in eighteen oh five things got worse.

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<v Speaker 1>Tragedy struck the family. Barbnicole's husband, Francois died. Now rumors

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<v Speaker 1>at the time were that his business was going so

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<v Speaker 1>incredibly badly that he had killed himself. That's actually unlikely,

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<v Speaker 1>much more likely he died due to typhoid fever. But

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<v Speaker 1>whatever the reason, he's dead. She is a widow. Her daughter,

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<v Speaker 1>le Montine is six years old, Barbnicole herself twenty seven,

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<v Speaker 1>and she is facing life as the widow clco or

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<v Speaker 1>as they say in France, la veuve clico.

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<v Speaker 2>Aha. Now this is starting to sound more familiar. So

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<v Speaker 2>Philip took pity on her, I suppose, and decided to

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<v Speaker 2>back the business in the wake of the tragedy.

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<v Speaker 1>Ben, I didn't bring you here to tell you a

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<v Speaker 1>story about people who felt sorry for this woman.

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<v Speaker 2>No.

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<v Speaker 1>No, he didn't take pity on her. He clearly saw

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<v Speaker 1>something in her, but he was at first just keen

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<v Speaker 1>to close the wine business entirely. I mean, the money

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<v Speaker 1>is in textiles, the wine business has been going badly,

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<v Speaker 1>why go ahead with this?

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<v Speaker 2>But obviously that didn't happen in the end, right, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean there's a bottle of this stuff in my fridge

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<v Speaker 2>right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm very envious. Yes, I mean the the product's

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<v Speaker 1>world famous. She basically somehow managed to persuade him that

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<v Speaker 1>her idea was worth backing, or perhaps more likely, that

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<v Speaker 1>she was worth backing. He must have seen she was

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<v Speaker 1>in incredibly smart, incredibly driven, and she had some collateral.

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<v Speaker 1>She was owed inheritance, and she said, look, instead of

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<v Speaker 1>the inheritance, why don't you back my wine business? And

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<v Speaker 1>he put in the equivalent of maybe a million dollars today,

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<v Speaker 1>which says a lot about her. I think also says

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<v Speaker 1>a lot about Philippe, because, as you pointed out, earlier

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<v Speaker 1>women in France at the time couldn't even have a

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<v Speaker 1>bank account, and she is proposing that she is going

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<v Speaker 1>to lead this huge and untried business. And it's also

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<v Speaker 1>a male dominated business. So who are the players? I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>will we have heard of any of them? Chanle, Angrie Hide,

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<v Speaker 1>sec Jean Remy Moe.

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<v Speaker 2>Have you heard of them? Those are certainly names that

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<v Speaker 2>sound familiar. Were they well known at the time. They

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<v Speaker 2>were very well known at the time. Moe in particular,

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<v Speaker 2>he had this celebrity romance with Napoleon and he used

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<v Speaker 2>to advertise his wine by distributing these postcards showing Mowe

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<v Speaker 2>and Napoleon exploring wine cellars together. Well, it's good to

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<v Speaker 2>know the romance. There's not a new funman.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely absolutely. So this is the situation in which Barbnicole

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<v Speaker 1>approaches her father in law, Philippe. He said, okay, I

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<v Speaker 1>will back the business, but you've got to learn something

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<v Speaker 1>about wine. You've got to go and do an apprenticeship

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<v Speaker 1>and learn the trade four years figuring out how the

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<v Speaker 1>wine business works. She agreed. She went off. She did

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<v Speaker 1>her four year apprenticeship. At the end of the four years,

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<v Speaker 1>the business is still really struggling, and so she goes

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<v Speaker 1>back to Philippe, her father in law, and she asks

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<v Speaker 1>him for help yet again, and he agrees. Wow, and

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<v Speaker 1>so he must have really believed in her at some level.

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<v Speaker 1>He must have done. I mean, we don't know why,

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<v Speaker 1>but in any case, whatever it was that passed between them,

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<v Speaker 1>he backed her a second time. This is the point

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<v Speaker 1>at which Barbnicole decides she's going to have to take

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<v Speaker 1>a gamble. Possibly she realizes it if she doesn't make

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<v Speaker 1>it this time, it's really a case of now or never.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, We've had a number of entrepreneurs on the show

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<v Speaker 2>who've told similar stories about being up against the wall

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<v Speaker 2>and then betting it all in black, so to speak,

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<v Speaker 2>because they have no choice. For example, we had a

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<v Speaker 2>woman who owns a company called Desi I Were her

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<v Speaker 2>name is Desi Perkins, and she went into a number

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<v Speaker 2>of places to pitch and couldn't get an answer and

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<v Speaker 2>was running out of cash and really went for it

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<v Speaker 2>and it came through. But you know, to go for broke,

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<v Speaker 2>it takes courage to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, suppose to some extent there's a degree

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<v Speaker 1>of survivor bias that we see the ones who took

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<v Speaker 1>the gamble and then the gamble paid off. But certainly

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<v Speaker 1>my own research suggests there is something about that crisis

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<v Speaker 1>that forces people to think differently and to explore new

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<v Speaker 1>ways of doing things. So that is something of a

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<v Speaker 1>catalyst for business transformation, I think.

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<v Speaker 2>So what happened next?

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<v Speaker 1>Barbnicole foresaw that the Napoleonic Wars were likely to come

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<v Speaker 1>to an end, and that when they did, that was

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<v Speaker 1>going to free up trade between France and its faux Russia,

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<v Speaker 1>and that meant potentially a huge champagne market in Russia.

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<v Speaker 1>And Barb Nicole was making a particular kind of champagne

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<v Speaker 1>that she was confident would sell very well in Russia.

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<v Speaker 1>It was incredibly sweet. Do you know so turn the

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<v Speaker 1>dessert wine?

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<v Speaker 2>Ben? I don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that similar to what they were drinking? Well, so

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<v Speaker 1>turn is very sweet. This champagne was sparkling like modern champagne,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was very sweet. It was actually twice as

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<v Speaker 1>much sugar even as a modern so turn. So this

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<v Speaker 1>is like drinking baileis or hot chocolate or something. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a very very sweet sparkling drink and the widow Clico.

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<v Speaker 1>She decides when the war ends, Russian's going to go

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<v Speaker 1>for this. She smuggles bottles of her best vintage, the

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen eleven vintage, to Amsterdam, knowing that if the war

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<v Speaker 1>does finish, they will be very well placed to be

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<v Speaker 1>shipped to Russia at that moment. So she's taking this

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<v Speaker 1>risk because if the war doesn't end, then she's not

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<v Speaker 1>going to get any return from this wine. But if

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<v Speaker 1>it does, she is perfectly timed to profit. There's sort

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<v Speaker 1>of three brilliant moves she makes at the same time.

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<v Speaker 1>One is really knowing her product market fit right. She

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<v Speaker 1>knows that this incredibly sweet drink fits the Russian palette.

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<v Speaker 1>Two is being aware of the macro effects of what's

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<v Speaker 1>going on around her, knowing the war is going to

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<v Speaker 1>end and that will open up trade. And then three

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<v Speaker 1>is having the guts to smuggle this stuff into Amsterdam

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<v Speaker 1>so she can get a jump on the competition. That's

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<v Speaker 1>quite a combination. Yes, the risk comes good. Madame Cleiko's

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<v Speaker 1>champagne makes it to Russia, beating her competitors, including Monsieur

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<v Speaker 1>Moey by several weeks. She gets influencer support nineteenth century

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<v Speaker 1>style two. The Cizar says that verve Click is the

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<v Speaker 1>only champagne he will drink, and of course, once he

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<v Speaker 1>says that the entire Russian court has to follow suit.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the perfect product. It is there at the perfect moment. That, though,

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<v Speaker 1>poses its own problems, because she suddenly got this massive

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<v Speaker 1>demand to make this kind of champagne, and at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>making champagne is extraordinarily difficult and the whole production process

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<v Speaker 1>is very inefficient.

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<v Speaker 2>Yet tim when people are successful, that can suddenly bring

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<v Speaker 2>up a new range of challenges. We spoke to Melissa

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<v Speaker 2>Gaiardo who started a candle company called Benita Fierce Candles,

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<v Speaker 2>and when her sales took off, she didn't know how

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<v Speaker 2>to keep up with production. I mean, she had people

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<v Speaker 2>in her home just making candles as fast as they

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<v Speaker 2>could possibly make them because she had a moment and

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<v Speaker 2>she had to capture it. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is exactly the problem that Barbney Cole faced,

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<v Speaker 1>and she realizes she has to do something to change that.

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<v Speaker 2>But in this case, it sounds like she had to

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<v Speaker 2>become a bit of an engineer.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So all champagne has a sediment. It makes the

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<v Speaker 1>drink cloudy. That's not what people want. They want to

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<v Speaker 1>clear champagne. That's true now, it was certainly true at

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<v Speaker 1>the time. But to filter out the sediment is this

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<v Speaker 1>very time consuming business. What Madame Clico invented was called

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<v Speaker 1>a riddling table. So riddling is the process of getting

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<v Speaker 1>the sediment out. And this is a kind of wooden

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<v Speaker 1>frame with holes bored into it, allowing the bottles to

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<v Speaker 1>be suspended at different angles, so they're basically upside down

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<v Speaker 1>on a diagonal. And you put the bottles in this

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<v Speaker 1>frame and then these expert wine riddlers come up and

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<v Speaker 1>they give it a sharp quarter turn every now and then.

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<v Speaker 1>And every time you have this quarter turn, you're changing

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<v Speaker 1>the angle of the bottle and you're very gently disturbing

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<v Speaker 1>the sediment. You're not mixing it back into the wine.

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<v Speaker 1>You're letting it slip to the bottom of the bottle.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course, because the bottle is upside down, the

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<v Speaker 1>bottom of the bottle is the neck, so you've got

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<v Speaker 1>this sediment gathering in the neck and you can take

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<v Speaker 1>it out of the bottle easily. So this riddling contraption,

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<v Speaker 1>this riddling table, is the killer app that makes it

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<v Speaker 1>much much easier to get the sediment out of the champagne,

0:13:07.930 --> 0:13:11.650
<v Speaker 1>and her competitors absolutely cannot work out how she is

0:13:11.730 --> 0:13:15.450
<v Speaker 1>doing this, How is she making so much champaign so quickly?

0:13:15.690 --> 0:13:18.050
<v Speaker 1>Moway figured it out eventually, but it took him fifteen

0:13:18.130 --> 0:13:19.450
<v Speaker 1>years to catch.

0:13:19.250 --> 0:13:22.290
<v Speaker 2>Up, you know, Tim, She was innovating in a physical

0:13:22.330 --> 0:13:25.210
<v Speaker 2>product that had been around a long time, and it's

0:13:25.250 --> 0:13:28.050
<v Speaker 2>interesting because that never stops. We interviewed someone on the

0:13:28.090 --> 0:13:31.650
<v Speaker 2>podcast as a company, Sabanto, that is changing the way

0:13:31.930 --> 0:13:35.570
<v Speaker 2>that you plant and harvest corn. We've been consuming corn

0:13:35.650 --> 0:13:39.730
<v Speaker 2>for thousands of years. He's developing automated tractors that can

0:13:39.770 --> 0:13:42.410
<v Speaker 2>plant and reap the crops. I think people fall into

0:13:42.530 --> 0:13:45.290
<v Speaker 2>a trap where innovation only happens in sort of the

0:13:45.330 --> 0:13:48.650
<v Speaker 2>advanced sectors of tech, and actually there isn't an industry

0:13:48.650 --> 0:13:51.010
<v Speaker 2>around that's not waiting around to be disrupted.

0:13:51.410 --> 0:13:54.330
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think that's absolutely right, and the wine industry,

0:13:54.570 --> 0:13:57.890
<v Speaker 1>as Barbneicole showed, is clearly one of them. And one

0:13:57.890 --> 0:14:00.250
<v Speaker 1>of the things that Madame Clico did here was not

0:14:00.330 --> 0:14:04.250
<v Speaker 1>just invent the process, but keep the process a secret,

0:14:04.250 --> 0:14:08.970
<v Speaker 1>so she had real loyalty from her employees who presume

0:14:09.530 --> 0:14:11.610
<v Speaker 1>could have gone to one of her competitors and collected

0:14:11.610 --> 0:14:14.730
<v Speaker 1>some kind of reward, but none of them did, and

0:14:14.770 --> 0:14:18.170
<v Speaker 1>that may have been because she had this profit sharing system.

0:14:18.370 --> 0:14:20.850
<v Speaker 1>So they were all making money, they felt looked after,

0:14:21.290 --> 0:14:24.170
<v Speaker 1>and they did not betray her secrets. Well, she was

0:14:24.210 --> 0:14:26.410
<v Speaker 1>shrewd in a number of ways. Is this approach of

0:14:26.690 --> 0:14:30.210
<v Speaker 1>treating your work as well sharing the gains something that

0:14:30.250 --> 0:14:32.170
<v Speaker 1>you've encountered yourself.

0:14:31.810 --> 0:14:35.410
<v Speaker 2>Ben, loyal employees are critical. I would just say that

0:14:36.610 --> 0:14:40.450
<v Speaker 2>loyalty and employment is only partially about paying ownership. It's

0:14:40.890 --> 0:14:43.570
<v Speaker 2>you know, particularly in today's world, it's about that plus

0:14:44.130 --> 0:14:47.250
<v Speaker 2>creating the right environment, making people feel valued and like

0:14:47.290 --> 0:14:49.930
<v Speaker 2>they belong and like they have purpose. So I think

0:14:49.930 --> 0:14:52.650
<v Speaker 2>the right compensation structure is important, but it's not the

0:14:52.650 --> 0:14:53.330
<v Speaker 2>whole ball game.

0:14:53.770 --> 0:14:56.410
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Listeners to our episode on the building of the

0:14:56.410 --> 0:15:00.330
<v Speaker 1>Empire State Building might recognize this. Paul Starrett, who was

0:15:00.410 --> 0:15:03.090
<v Speaker 1>in charge of that project, was in some ways an

0:15:03.090 --> 0:15:07.410
<v Speaker 1>incredibly generous employer. He paid the workers very well. The

0:15:07.490 --> 0:15:10.850
<v Speaker 1>conditions were great, it was great food safety standards were

0:15:10.930 --> 0:15:12.970
<v Speaker 1>very high. But at the same time he watched them

0:15:13.090 --> 0:15:17.930
<v Speaker 1>absolutely like a hawk. He had really really tough minded

0:15:18.330 --> 0:15:22.930
<v Speaker 1>site managers, cracking down on fraud and theft and so on.

0:15:22.970 --> 0:15:24.490
<v Speaker 1>So there was this sort of sense of like, I'm

0:15:24.490 --> 0:15:28.010
<v Speaker 1>going to absolutely insist on the best possible behavior, but

0:15:28.050 --> 0:15:29.690
<v Speaker 1>at the same time, I'm going to reward that.

0:15:30.370 --> 0:15:33.970
<v Speaker 2>You know, success is the best retention tool there is,

0:15:34.530 --> 0:15:37.730
<v Speaker 2>and success gives you the right to be tougher because

0:15:37.770 --> 0:15:39.730
<v Speaker 2>people want to be in an environment of success and

0:15:39.770 --> 0:15:42.610
<v Speaker 2>they want a rise to the occasion. You talked earlier

0:15:42.610 --> 0:15:45.650
<v Speaker 2>about the fact that she basically established the category. I

0:15:45.650 --> 0:15:51.010
<v Speaker 2>mean she drove large scale behavioral and intentive change across

0:15:51.730 --> 0:15:54.610
<v Speaker 2>an entire continent. It sounds like, how did she do that?

0:15:54.650 --> 0:15:55.570
<v Speaker 2>Tell me more about that.

0:15:55.970 --> 0:15:59.050
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a fascinating case study. So at the time,

0:15:59.490 --> 0:16:03.010
<v Speaker 1>Champagne itself was not the drink it is today, and

0:16:03.050 --> 0:16:06.650
<v Speaker 1>the Champagne region was not famous for sparkling wine. It

0:16:06.690 --> 0:16:12.810
<v Speaker 1>was famous for still white wines. So by reaching these influencers,

0:16:12.810 --> 0:16:17.330
<v Speaker 1>reaching the czar, by producing this drink that perfectly matched

0:16:17.370 --> 0:16:21.370
<v Speaker 1>people's taste, and by creating something that seemed luxurious but

0:16:21.410 --> 0:16:23.450
<v Speaker 1>at the same time was cheap enough to be affordable

0:16:23.490 --> 0:16:25.930
<v Speaker 1>because she had made the production process more efficient and

0:16:25.970 --> 0:16:30.530
<v Speaker 1>to make it available at scale, she creates this whole category. Suddenly,

0:16:30.530 --> 0:16:34.610
<v Speaker 1>this drink is something that the czar demands, and yet

0:16:34.810 --> 0:16:38.970
<v Speaker 1>the ordinary middle classes can afford it, and it basically

0:16:39.010 --> 0:16:43.410
<v Speaker 1>becomes the drink of celebrations everywhere. She established all of this.

0:16:43.610 --> 0:16:45.770
<v Speaker 1>By the time she died in eighteen sixty six, the

0:16:45.770 --> 0:16:49.410
<v Speaker 1>Widow Clico had a global empire. She was exporting her

0:16:49.450 --> 0:16:52.890
<v Speaker 1>wine as far afield as the United States. Sales had

0:16:52.930 --> 0:16:56.930
<v Speaker 1>reached seven hundred and fifty thousand bottles a year. That

0:16:57.050 --> 0:17:01.410
<v Speaker 1>is up from seventeen thousand bottles back in eighteen eleven

0:17:01.570 --> 0:17:04.650
<v Speaker 1>before her big breakthrough, and the brand is now so

0:17:04.770 --> 0:17:08.250
<v Speaker 1>well recognized. I think it's these second most popular brand

0:17:08.250 --> 0:17:11.450
<v Speaker 1>of champagne in the world. And if you go into

0:17:11.770 --> 0:17:14.850
<v Speaker 1>a bar in France, I understand that you can simply

0:17:14.890 --> 0:17:18.170
<v Speaker 1>ask for a glass of the Widow and people will

0:17:18.170 --> 0:17:21.570
<v Speaker 1>know that you want verve Clico Champagne.

0:17:21.970 --> 0:17:25.810
<v Speaker 2>Tim What's interesting about that is we think that hyperscaling

0:17:26.050 --> 0:17:29.090
<v Speaker 2>is a modern phenomenon. You look at the likes of

0:17:29.530 --> 0:17:31.450
<v Speaker 2>Apple or Amazon or Google or some of the other

0:17:31.570 --> 0:17:34.050
<v Speaker 2>more recent startups that have gone global with their impact.

0:17:34.170 --> 0:17:36.610
<v Speaker 2>And while the time scales might have been longer, this

0:17:36.810 --> 0:17:40.010
<v Speaker 2>was maybe fifty or sixty years as opposed to five

0:17:40.090 --> 0:17:43.530
<v Speaker 2>or ten. The impact even back then could be global

0:17:43.610 --> 0:17:46.010
<v Speaker 2>in scale, in terms of how far reaching some of

0:17:46.010 --> 0:17:47.690
<v Speaker 2>these insights and innovations can be.

0:17:48.010 --> 0:17:52.410
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely, it's partly about developing the product that people

0:17:52.450 --> 0:17:55.050
<v Speaker 1>want to drink. It's partly about the marketing, but it

0:17:55.090 --> 0:17:57.050
<v Speaker 1>is also about the production. You've got to be able

0:17:57.090 --> 0:17:59.090
<v Speaker 1>to make this stuff. You have to get all of

0:17:59.130 --> 0:18:00.690
<v Speaker 1>these things right. And that's what she did.

0:18:01.130 --> 0:18:04.610
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and aspiration and luxury is a timeless phenomenon.

0:18:05.450 --> 0:18:10.010
<v Speaker 1>Something else timeless is the motivational business quote. And I

0:18:10.050 --> 0:18:13.890
<v Speaker 1>actually have a motivational business quote from wido'click. I rather

0:18:14.010 --> 0:18:17.010
<v Speaker 1>like this one. This was a letter she wrote to

0:18:17.050 --> 0:18:20.770
<v Speaker 1>one of her grandchildren, and she commented, the world is

0:18:20.850 --> 0:18:25.130
<v Speaker 1>in perpetual motion and we must invent the things of tomorrow.

0:18:25.650 --> 0:18:29.930
<v Speaker 1>One must go before others, be determined and exacting, and

0:18:30.050 --> 0:18:34.850
<v Speaker 1>let your intelligence direct your life. Act with audacity.

0:18:36.090 --> 0:18:39.250
<v Speaker 2>What an incredible woman. I hope that aspiring female and

0:18:39.290 --> 0:18:42.290
<v Speaker 2>frankly male entrepreneurs can hear this story because the woman

0:18:42.410 --> 0:18:44.690
<v Speaker 2>was groundbreaking in so many ways. I don't speak French.

0:18:44.770 --> 0:18:47.250
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what the word for meant, so I

0:18:47.290 --> 0:18:49.650
<v Speaker 2>kept waiting for tim to tell me that she married

0:18:49.850 --> 0:18:52.250
<v Speaker 2>mister viv and it turns out she did it all

0:18:52.290 --> 0:18:54.690
<v Speaker 2>on her own. And I think that's fantastic what she

0:18:54.810 --> 0:18:57.970
<v Speaker 2>was able to accomplish as a woman in early nineteenth

0:18:57.970 --> 0:18:59.930
<v Speaker 2>century France. I mean, I'm just bowled over by that.

0:19:00.250 --> 0:19:05.690
<v Speaker 2>I think about innovation, resilience, scale, grit vision. You know,

0:19:05.730 --> 0:19:07.690
<v Speaker 2>these are things we talk about all the time in

0:19:07.730 --> 0:19:10.370
<v Speaker 2>business circles, and she had them and spades and pioneered

0:19:10.370 --> 0:19:13.050
<v Speaker 2>them to something that has stood the test of time

0:19:13.090 --> 0:19:14.130
<v Speaker 2>and more ways than one.

0:19:14.850 --> 0:19:18.770
<v Speaker 1>No, Ben, I will drink to that. Ben Walter, thank

0:19:18.850 --> 0:19:21.170
<v Speaker 1>you very much for joining me on Cautionary Tales.

0:19:21.490 --> 0:19:23.450
<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much for having me, Tim, What a great story.

0:19:25.890 --> 0:19:29.330
<v Speaker 1>This episode was sponsored by Chase for Business and I

0:19:29.370 --> 0:19:32.570
<v Speaker 1>was talking to Ben Walter, who is the CEO of

0:19:33.090 --> 0:19:36.370
<v Speaker 1>Chase for Business. You can of course find the Unshakeables

0:19:36.410 --> 0:19:38.970
<v Speaker 1>wherever you get your podcasts, and there will be a

0:19:39.010 --> 0:19:42.690
<v Speaker 1>new episode of Cautionary Tales in this feed very shortly.

0:19:43.930 --> 0:19:46.290
<v Speaker 1>For a full list of our sources, see the show

0:19:46.330 --> 0:19:56.250
<v Speaker 1>notes at Timharford dot com. Cautionary Tales is written by

0:19:56.290 --> 0:20:00.170
<v Speaker 1>me Tim Harford, with Andrew Wright, Alice Fines, and Ryan Dilly.

0:20:00.650 --> 0:20:04.090
<v Speaker 1>It's produced by Alice Fines and Marilyn Rust. The sound

0:20:04.090 --> 0:20:07.450
<v Speaker 1>design and original music are the work of Pascal Wise.

0:20:07.850 --> 0:20:12.290
<v Speaker 1>Additional sound design is by Carlos San Juan at Brain Audio.

0:20:12.610 --> 0:20:16.650
<v Speaker 1>Bend A Dafhaffrey edited the scripts. The show features the

0:20:16.730 --> 0:20:21.610
<v Speaker 1>voice talents of Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Oliver Hembrough, Sarah Jupp,

0:20:21.810 --> 0:20:26.490
<v Speaker 1>messaam Monroe, Jamal Westman, and Rufus Wright. The show also

0:20:26.570 --> 0:20:29.450
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg,

0:20:29.570 --> 0:20:34.410
<v Speaker 1>Greta Cohne, Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan,

0:20:34.730 --> 0:20:39.330
<v Speaker 1>Kira Posey, and Powen Miller. Cautionary Tales is a production

0:20:39.450 --> 0:20:43.850
<v Speaker 1>of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardore Studios in London

0:20:44.130 --> 0:20:47.690
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