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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 3: Trust me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lived.

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Speaker 3: To you, I've never had a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two forces who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I am Lola.

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Speaker 1: Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And today's Part one with our incredible listener guest Caitlin J. Lavety,

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Speaker 2: a former member of Evangelical Healing Ministry, or as she

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Speaker 2: calls it, cult, Operation Light Force. In this episode, she's

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Speaker 2: going to tell us about how she joined the group

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Speaker 2: when she was struggling with Crohn's disease, extremely sick and isolated,

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Speaker 2: and how the group's promises of community, God and literal

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Speaker 2: physical healing seemed like the answer in her moment of

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Speaker 2: vulnerability and illness.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about how the leader, Richard, began doing counseling

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Speaker 1: sessions with her, teaching his followers that any physical ailment

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Speaker 1: they experienced was a result of their own sin or

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Speaker 1: trauma or maybe just satan. In any case, the goalpost

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Speaker 1: was always moving and he was the one with the answers. Plus,

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Speaker 1: stay tuned for part two next week, when we'll discuss

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Speaker 1: how her counseling sessions led to being told she'd experienced

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Speaker 1: satanic ritual abuse.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, there's so much here. We talked for two

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Speaker 2: hours and I feel like we barely scratched the surface.

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Speaker 2: Like there's just so much. And she's so smart in

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Speaker 2: how she thinks about it now, a lot of awareness. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 2: before we jump in with Caitlin.

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Speaker 1: Okay, why did you guy? That was the craziest thing

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Speaker 1: I've ever said?

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Speaker 2: Because I hate so stupid why I'm tired of saving

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Speaker 2: dive in socause if jump in is like a whole

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Speaker 2: new way of saying it. Before we proceed with Caitlin,

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Speaker 2: tell me your cultiest thing please.

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Speaker 1: Okay, my cultiest thing this week is actually old news,

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Speaker 1: but it's news that I had never seen before. And

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Speaker 1: I found it interesting, sad, scary, interesting, and that I

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Speaker 1: would share it with y'all. Maybe some of you all

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Speaker 1: heard about it when it happened, but I had not. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I sign on to x Twitter, whatever you want to

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Speaker 1: call it, and I don't know if this is your experience,

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Speaker 1: but my Twitter feed is just like absolute violence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like all I want to look up is like positive

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Speaker 1: quotes and like poppies, and it's just like people's arms

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Speaker 1: being like ripped off, and it's just the most traumatizing shit. Right.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I saw was this man drowning,

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Speaker 1: and I looked more into it, and he was this

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Speaker 1: Indonesian kind of People were calling him a shaman or

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Speaker 1: a cult leader or somebody who had kind of a

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Speaker 1: spiritual group in his community. And he said that his

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Speaker 1: chanting would make it so that like he couldn't get

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Speaker 1: eaten by an alligator, and somebody had gone missing from

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Speaker 1: an alligator attack. So they drop him in this body

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Speaker 1: of water and he starts doing the chanting and an

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Speaker 1: alligator just comes and drags him.

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Speaker 3: Stop.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I missed that completely. When was that

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen? Wow?

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Speaker 1: But for some reason, when I opened to X. It's

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Speaker 1: the first thing it showed.

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Speaker 2: Me that's insane. So it was it was the leader

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Speaker 2: himself who has taken Oh my.

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Speaker 1: God, yes, and his followers are like, what what?

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Speaker 2: It just feels like such irony, Like that's you. That

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Speaker 2: would be in a play, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And again this was a source on X. I

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Speaker 1: did look it up. I found it in a few

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Speaker 1: other places, but like a lot more information is needed.

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Speaker 1: I just found it interesting. So often these leaders don't

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Speaker 1: believe what they're saying and know they're full of shit,

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Speaker 1: but this same definitely believed believed what he was saying

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Speaker 1: and immediately got taken away by alligators. And just what

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Speaker 1: that would feel like to his followers who are like,

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Speaker 1: what just happened? Like that's some immediate fucking cognitive dissonance

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Speaker 1: times nine thousand millions?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how would you even? I mean, listen, Like, we

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Speaker 2: obviously have seen a million examples of that where people

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Speaker 2: are like, you know, this is the date that the

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Speaker 2: end is coming, and then the end doesn't come or

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Speaker 2: all totally reverse position on on anything, and there will

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Speaker 2: always be some justification for it. But if he's not

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Speaker 2: there to like come up with a justification. What do

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Speaker 2: you then, how do you then make sense of that?

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Speaker 2: That's so crazy?

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Speaker 1: Wow? So yeah, I would love to know information about

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Speaker 1: what happened to that group, how they at first dealt

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Speaker 1: with the what they're reasoning around it was, because obviously

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Speaker 1: you would have to have some reasoning I'm assuming.

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, like if you still wanted to stay in

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Speaker 2: that group and maintain that belief system, Like I wonder

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Speaker 2: maybe it's like, well, he wasn't up on his righteousness.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they expected him to just come back.

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Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, Yeah, that's where.

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Speaker 1: My mind would go, like, no, he didn't, right, he

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Speaker 1: was extremely dead.

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Speaker 2: But maybe it's one of those things where it's like

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Speaker 2: any day now.

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Speaker 1: Still, you know, right, I mean, the brain will do

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Speaker 1: weird things.

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Speaker 2: It's so true.

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Speaker 1: What about you, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

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Speaker 2: Well, I just was thinking about, you know, really relevant

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Speaker 2: to this episode and a lot of the stuff we're

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Speaker 2: about to talk about, this idea of religious healing preventing

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Speaker 2: people from getting treatment that they actually need that could

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Speaker 2: potentially save their lives. And this actually happened to one

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Speaker 2: of Jack's family members. This actually happened to his aunt,

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Speaker 2: who was very devout a part of a Christianish religion

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Speaker 2: that basically didn't believe in healthcare. I think he's hazy

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Speaker 2: on some of the details because it was it was

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Speaker 2: a while ago now, but they were just doing prayer

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Speaker 2: and juicing and saying that that was going to be

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Speaker 2: enough and God was going to save her. And she

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Speaker 2: did not go to the doctor and get the treatment

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Speaker 2: that she needed and did end up dying, and it's

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Speaker 2: just so it's just so sad. It's just so sad.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many people, you know, which is

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Speaker 2: not just listen, like sometimes maybe they would have died anyway,

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Speaker 2: but maybe their life could have been a hell of

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Speaker 2: a lot longer, you know, or just I don't know,

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Speaker 2: just giving someone hope like that as they're getting sicker

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Speaker 2: and sicker. It just it's so fucking fucked up. And

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Speaker 2: I haven't looked into this at all, so I'm just

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Speaker 2: kind of talking out of my ass here. But one

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Speaker 2: of the things I say in this interview with Caitlin

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Speaker 2: is like I wonder if there has been a precedent

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Speaker 2: set for a church or leader facing consequences for encouraging

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Speaker 2: people to not get medical treatment when they need it,

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Speaker 2: because it really is it seems like a form of

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Speaker 2: like violence almost. I mean, you are encouraging somebody to not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm on a lot of Jehovah's Witness redd

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Speaker 1: up boards and one of the things, of course that

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Speaker 1: wakes a lot of people up is like them being

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Speaker 1: like and this seven year old refused the blood transfusion

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Speaker 1: and like, praise God, yes he lost his life, but

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Speaker 1: he went out like that is the first place I

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Speaker 1: would start with that, And nothing's ever been done, you know,

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Speaker 1: And that's I mean not to my knowledge on my

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Speaker 1: Reddit board.

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Speaker 2: Again, we haven't done any research on this, so we

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Speaker 2: could totally be wrong, but it just seems like one

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Speaker 2: of the great injustices of you know, extreme religions and

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Speaker 2: cults that do have these belief systems is that you

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Speaker 2: are there is death that doesn't need to happen, or

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Speaker 2: even just grave illness that doesn't need to happen.

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Speaker 1: It seems like a loophole in the system that we've

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Speaker 1: seen a million times with cults where it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you're choosing it.

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Speaker 2: Right, but it's like if you have been told that

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Speaker 2: that's the only way that you're late.

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Speaker 1: It's not right. But I could see where the law

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Speaker 1: could be behind.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think the law is very much behind,

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Speaker 2: especially here. I think it's catching up in a couple

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Speaker 2: of places in Europe maybe, And it really varies state

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Speaker 2: by state how much the law really recognizes coerceive control.

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Speaker 2: And it's a really difficult thing to prove. You really

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Speaker 2: have to have lots of stuff in writing. And then

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Speaker 2: even then a lot of states the law just isn't

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Speaker 2: there yet. So I'll be curious to see if that

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Speaker 2: changes at some point. But in any case, y'all, if

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Speaker 2: you're feeling sick, please go to the doctor and listen.

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Speaker 2: It's our medicals. Our healthcare system isn't great, but it's

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Speaker 2: better than doing nothing. So that's my zing for the day.

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Speaker 1: Whatever. Wait, amazing, Well should we talk to Caitlin.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it. Welcome Caitlyn Jade Lavity to trust me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for being with us today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be on.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited to have you on. So you were

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Speaker 2: actually one of our listeners who called in with the

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Speaker 2: craziest story that I think we were saying before we

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Speaker 2: were recording. I think is really important to talk about

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Speaker 2: because there is such a huge problem with this idea

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Speaker 2: of religious healing and people being exploited in that way,

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Speaker 2: which we really have not talked very much about. So

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Speaker 2: to get us started, can you tell us a little

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Speaker 2: bit about where you were at before you got involved

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Speaker 2: with this group and how you got your diagnosis?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so well, where I was at, like in terms

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Speaker 3: of geography, in terms of religion, like.

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Speaker 2: In terms of religion, emotionally, physically, like what was your

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Speaker 2: life like?

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Speaker 3: Well, I am from the Tampa Bay area, so kind

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Speaker 3: of moved around a lot. I was kind of what

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Speaker 3: I would say is like stereotypical, able bodied Southern Baptist girl,

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Speaker 3: pretty sporty, perky, doing my thing, batsing around. I played

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Speaker 3: volleyball with my friends. I went to church every Wednesday

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Speaker 3: night youth group, and you know, Sunday morning and Sunday night.

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Speaker 3: I went to a kind of strict fundamentalist Christian school,

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Speaker 3: which I thought was weird, but my parents were like,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't really listen to those guys like, it's

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Speaker 3: our church is the way to do it, don't worry

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: What church was that, Gosh, I don't.

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Speaker 3: Quite remember what it was called. But they had their

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Speaker 3: own way of doing things they believed, like women should

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Speaker 3: not cut their hair, were in makeup, they shouldn't wear pants,

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Speaker 3: you know. So I had very early on introduced the

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Speaker 3: idea that Christianity had many different sets to it, and

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Speaker 3: that people had different ideas of doing religion, and that

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Speaker 3: everybody believed that their version was the correct version, and

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Speaker 3: that everybody else was kind of doing it wrong, and

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Speaker 3: don't worry over there, just stand your lane and God

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Speaker 3: will bless you for doing it correctly quote unquote. And

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Speaker 3: I just thought, cool, okay, as long as we're doing

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Speaker 3: it the right way, no worries, and I didn't think

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Speaker 3: anything of it. And then I went to a good

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Speaker 3: Christian college. In my eyes, I wanted to go to

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Speaker 3: a Christian college, and I, you know, I was a

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Speaker 3: very dedicated Christian girl. You know, I abstinence only went

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Speaker 3: to the youth camps, and I rededicated my life. I

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Speaker 3: was a super anxious girl, so I like got saved

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Speaker 3: at every altar call because I was worried about the

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Speaker 3: rapture coming and taking me and being being left behind.

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Speaker 3: If that resonates with anybody, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then

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Speaker 3: as I went to college, I noticed that my stomach

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Speaker 3: started to get tender a little bit more often than

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Speaker 3: it used to. But I strang it up to maybe

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Speaker 3: a few late night meals or a little bit too

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Speaker 3: greasy tacos. You know, you're in college or eating fast

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Speaker 3: food later than your mom maybe would have made you.

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Speaker 3: And I'm listening to new music for the first time,

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Speaker 3: and I'm out in the world for the first time,

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Speaker 3: and everybody's so different, and oh wow, everything looks so cool.

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Speaker 3: And then I just started getting sicker and sicker and sicker.

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Speaker 3: And at first I was going into walking clinics and

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Speaker 3: they said, oh, you've just got a stomach flu, No

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Speaker 3: big deal, you know, take a z pac, Maybe do

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Speaker 3: the Brat diet bread, rice, apple, sauce, toast. You'll be fine.

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Speaker 3: Take a pediat. Shake it off. Kid, you're young. And

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Speaker 3: it just kept getting more and more serious. And I

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Speaker 3: was on Trycare American Military health insurance because my dad

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Speaker 3: was in the military. And Trycare really is, in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: good for specialty illnessness. It's really not good for anything

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Speaker 3: other than like a cold, so and it takes a

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Speaker 3: long time to get in. So once I realized, hey,

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Speaker 3: I think there's something more severe there. It was about

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Speaker 3: my sophomore year of college, and I had dropped like

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Speaker 3: twenty five thirty pounds, and I was like, Okay, I

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Speaker 3: need to see like a gastroenterologist here. Something is wrong,

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Speaker 3: Like I'm having like diarrhea and vomiting every single time

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Speaker 3: I eat. My skin is all splotchy, my hair to

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Speaker 3: fall out like this, something's not right. And it took

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Speaker 3: a few years to even get diagnosed. So that's stretched

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Speaker 3: through my entire undergraduate course of me jumping to different doctors,

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Speaker 3: eventually getting off of Tricare because it became clear that

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Speaker 3: none of the gis that I could go to were

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Speaker 3: qualified to diagnose me. They were mostly for Eldercare people.

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Speaker 3: And that entire time, I was becoming more and more desperate.

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Speaker 3: I was restricting my eating because you can't get sick

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Speaker 3: you don't eat girl math. So you know, bad girl math,

261
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Speaker 3: those in poor taste. No bad, yes, not not advisable

262
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Speaker 3: girl math. But so I that whole time is growing

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Speaker 3: thinner and thinner and thinner and more and more and

264
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Speaker 3: more desperate and kind of reaching out to God as

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Speaker 3: I knew it, being like hey God, it's me Margaret,

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Speaker 3: Like hey, like where are you? I'm praying I'm doing

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Speaker 3: the things that I'm supposed to be doing, and I'm

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Speaker 3: I'm not seeing any relief. And it didn't quite come

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Speaker 3: from there. And then I started taking advice from loose

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Speaker 3: friends and relatives that start to come down up the

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Speaker 3: woodwork when you get really sick, like, oh, have you

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Speaker 3: tried maybe doing yoga, or oh have you maybe tried

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Speaker 3: a juice cleanse, or you try to act you puncture?

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Speaker 3: Have you tried essential oils or in the list goes

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Speaker 3: on and on. I'm sure anyone with a chronic illness

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Speaker 3: or any serious disability or disease will be familiar with tail.

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Speaker 3: So I tried everything at a certain point, everything in

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Speaker 3: anything that anyone would give me to try. I got desperate.

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Speaker 3: Towards the point that I first interacted with my cults.

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Speaker 3: I was getting sick upwards of twelve to fifteen times

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Speaker 3: a day, and I was only eating maybe once or

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Speaker 3: twice a week.

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Speaker 1: I'm WHOA, sorry you're describing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was miserable. It was absolutely miserable. I cannot

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Speaker 3: express to you enough how absolutely horrible it was. And

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Speaker 3: I think that that's something too, that it's important the

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Speaker 3: context of what kind of placed me in the perfect

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Speaker 3: position to kind of be desperate, because it's not always

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Speaker 3: people that are kind of like I don't know. I

290
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Speaker 3: think before experiencing this, I had in my mind maybe

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Speaker 3: the idea of a person who would join a cult,

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Speaker 3: and I don't think I would have fit that description,

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Speaker 3: Like I consider myself a pretty intelligent person and like

294
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Speaker 3: articulate and like charming, and I'm like, oh, you know,

295
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Speaker 3: I'm just bopping down the street doing my thing. I'm

296
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Speaker 3: from a suburb, Like you know, I don't join cults.

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Speaker 3: And that's all horribly stereotypical and untrue. And now that's

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Speaker 3: part of why I reached out to you guys in

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Speaker 3: the first place. I'm like, if you are desperate enough

300
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Speaker 3: or alone enough, something that I want to really stress.

301
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Speaker 3: From that point in my life, I was advised to

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Speaker 3: medically drop out of undergraduate and I refused because I

303
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Speaker 3: didn't want to get behind in my schooling. I didn't

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Speaker 3: want to lose a year. I was four hours away

305
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Speaker 3: from my family because I was in school. I didn't

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Speaker 3: communicate with them because I didn't want to let them

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Speaker 3: know how bad it was. I didn't know how to

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Speaker 3: talk to them about it. I didn't want them to

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Speaker 3: feel the burden of how sick that I was, or

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Speaker 3: that I think I was dying. I'm pretty positive I

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Speaker 3: was dying, and it just was too much effort. So

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Speaker 3: finally all of that happens, and I go home one summer,

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Speaker 3: This was around twenty fourteen. This was the summer of

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Speaker 3: my junior year. And I went home and essentially all

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Speaker 3: I could do because with all of that lack of food,

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Speaker 3: you lose energy, so I was essentially just bedridden. My

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Speaker 3: brother came home from a Christian summer camp, youth camp

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Speaker 3: like all all good boys and girls go to, and uh,

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Speaker 3: he said, Hey, I left my backpack at youth camp.

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Speaker 3: Would you come with me to go and get it?

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Speaker 3: You basically just sit around like would you come with me?

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Speaker 2: M hmm. I want to rewind really fast, because can

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Speaker 2: you tell us what your diagnosis actually was and and

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Speaker 2: did doctors able to were they able to do anything

325
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Speaker 2: at all? Like what was your history at this point

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Speaker 2: with the actual medical establishment?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah, thank you. So my diagnosis which came just

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Speaker 3: like right before that, I had just gotten diagnosed like

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Speaker 3: that summer. It took that long with Crohn's disease, So

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Speaker 3: thank you very much. I appreciate that because I had

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Speaker 3: totally forgotten. I'd skipped right over that part. I got

332
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 3: diagnosed with Croms disease and pretty severe crumbs disease, So

333
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 3: something to keep in mind for later. My Crown's disease

334
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 3: essentially is an autoimmune disorder, and that is just essentially

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Speaker 3: the immune system attacking itself in the intestines in my case,

336
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 3: and it works in flares and remissions. So in my case,

337
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,479
Speaker 3: I will be in flares for several years and then

338
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 3: I will be in remission for several years. So positives

339
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 3: and then negatives.

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Speaker 2: At that point, like, so you got your diagnosis and

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Speaker 2: you're talking to a GI guy or girl, and what

342
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 2: are they giving you as options? Like what are they

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Speaker 2: telling you?

344
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Speaker 3: So at that point, because it had been untreated for solong,

345
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,399
Speaker 3: a lot of my options were just damage control. So uh,

346
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 3: they started me off on steroids because I had a

347
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 3: lot of active infections. So your prednozone essentially is what

348
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 3: they give you to knock down any infection almost and

349
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,679
Speaker 3: then they'll give you a lot of biologics or what

350
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,360
Speaker 3: they're called essentially to kind of stomp down your immune

351
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 3: system because the immune systems what's attacking you. So if

352
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 3: you don't have an immune system, it can't attack you.

353
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Speaker 3: Is essentially.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

355
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh man, that sounds so incredibly stressful.

356
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 3: And it is very stressful.

357
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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.

358
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Speaker 3: So I was facing down that option, and then towards

359
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 3: the end of going to that summer camp, they were like, hey,

360
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 3: your biologics are not working. So the options we were

361
00:20:52,359 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 3: looking at were uh, low dose chemotherapy or reconstruction surgery.

362
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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

363
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 3: So those were my choices as again like a nineteen.

364
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 2: Year old, Oh my gosh, wouild.

365
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,239
Speaker 3: Is scary, that's yeah, and terrifying. And I had like

366
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 3: medical phobia at that point, so it was having anxiety

367
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 3: attacks like every time I was even thinking about it.

368
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Speaker 2: Oh my god. So yeah, you're basically describing a situation

369
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 2: that anyone who would be and that would be desperate

370
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 2: for an answer, a solution, a cure because there's not

371
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: like it's not like you can just be like, oh

372
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Speaker 2: you have crones. Here you go, here's your crones pill,

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Speaker 2: and then you're just right.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, and there are like I was definitely taking pills.

375
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Speaker 3: But at the end of the day too, like with

376
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Speaker 3: with my level of severity there, it was maintenance pills,

377
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 3: like there wasn't anything they can do. And Chron's disease

378
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 3: is an incurable autoimmune disorder. So even if I got

379
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: into mission, it's just about like maintaining remission. Even then

380
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 3: I would still have symptoms. But we were at it

381
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 3: like all time high flare, like your body is damaging itself.

382
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 3: If we do not stop it, you are going to die.

383
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 3: So I would have done anything. I literally would have

384
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Speaker 3: done anything, and I kind.

385
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Speaker 1: Of did so.

386
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 2: Well understandably, I mean, especially given the context of you know,

387
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 2: your life up to this point, which is somebody who

388
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: was engaging with religion and like.

389
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think I may have even understated it,

390
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 3: like I was a very dedicated Christian.

391
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask, like you said, you know, you

392
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 1: went to college, You're listening to new music, You're meeting

393
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,199
Speaker 1: new exciting people, Like was there a part of you

394
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 1: that thought, oh my gosh, I need to get away

395
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Speaker 1: from all of this and like rededicate myself to I

396
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: don't know, to the Lord or the Lord, and like

397
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: this is this has been bad luck or something.

398
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 3: Even when I was like I'm listening to new music

399
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 3: and meeting new exciting people, like I was still that

400
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 3: was like in my classes and like I heard new

401
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 3: music in a car driving Vie I was still so

402
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 3: afraid would.

403
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 1: Catch me at the right.

404
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 3: Rapture and he'd be like, what are you listening to?

405
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 3: And I'd be like, oh, my goad, sorry it was

406
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 3: air A Smith and my god, you know. So I

407
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: was so. I was very dedicated, and I even like

408
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 3: led a Saturday morning Bible study a Pannana bread downtown,

409
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 3: like I was still a hundred Panera literally the whitest

410
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 3: thing you could think of.

411
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: But they were like, here's there's the Bible study.

412
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,719
Speaker 3: That was fine, well okay. It was like they had

413
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 3: a little outdoor courtyard bagels and we did it outside.

414
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: I would go for much for sure.

415
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm definitely a carb girl, so I for like,

416
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 3: if it was the morning, I'd go for those like

417
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: crispy crunchy. Well when I could eat. You have to

418
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 3: remember too, I wasn't really eating at that time. I'd

419
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 3: buy a bagel for show and I would just like

420
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 3: sit it next to me. I purchased something, so you

421
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: can't really kick me out right, and I just give it.

422
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: Man, I was ministering, Yeah you were, and Panera bread

423
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: that is a new one.

424
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 2: Because I was a Panera minister.

425
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 3: We turned to cream cheese.

426
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: They we're going to get a letter from somebody being

427
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: like I was in a Panera bread colt.

428
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: Please, I cannot wait. I cannot wait for that day.

429
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: I'm very sorry. But also I was the smear.

430
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 2: All right, So you were religious as hell.

431
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 3: Basically I was low key religious as hell. Yes, I

432
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 3: could whip a sucker at a sword drill. Yeah yeah, sow.

433
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: O c d almost maybe like it was like taken out, Yeah.

434
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 3: A little bit. I started having anxiety attacks about the

435
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 3: rapture and being left behind when I was like ten.

436
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 2: So, Megan, are you relating so right now?

437
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: I like, I was gonna ask if you were raised

438
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: in the same thing as religion as me.

439
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: But I know it sounded so similar.

440
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: It did, but you probably weren't. But anyway, did you

441
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: did you meet in homes or did you meet in

442
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: church buildings?

443
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: So we actually did meet in church buildings?

444
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: Okay? Great? Then no different, different, different, different thing. Yeah okay,

445
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: but I relate a lot to your story besides the

446
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: crowns part.

447
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 3: Yeah sorry, I'm sorry. Yeah, my story on a personal level.

448
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. I like the state of mind you

449
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: must have been in with all of this going on

450
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: at the same time, Like I can't even imagine to

451
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: throw in being sick into all of that.

452
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: Seriously really intense. So as you were starting to say,

453
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: maybe you can start this sort of part of the

454
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: story over, how did you then find out about Operation

455
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: Light Force? Are you cool with saying their actual names?

456
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 3: I am cool?

457
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, how did you I'll say it again. Then

458
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: how did you come upon Operation Light Force?

459
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: Well, my brother had gone to a summertime youth group

460
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 3: my I believe it was my junior year of undergraduate,

461
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 3: and I had gone home for the summer and was

462
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 3: laid up in bed being depressed for some reason.

463
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: I can't imagine why, why would you ever be?

464
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: Oh, I was really like bumbing people out for some reason.

465
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 3: I don't know why that is. And he came up

466
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: to my room and he was like, Caitlin, all you

467
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: do is like lay around. Come sit in the car

468
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 3: with me at least and like see some foliage as

469
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 3: we drive by. And I forgot my backpack at camp,

470
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: Like drive with me to go get my backpack at camp.

471
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 3: And I said fine, because I love my younger brother,

472
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 3: so uh I, you know, shout out to my younger

473
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: brother if you hear this. We did it, bug, we

474
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 3: got out. Oh my gosh, you know we were both

475
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: in it together. Yeah. Oops sorry, So oops you're bad.

476
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly exactly your fault.

477
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: Your fault.

478
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 3: No, he feels bad about it, but so he We

479
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 3: wander back into like this convention center thick, old red

480
00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 3: carpeted like hall, and we find his backpack, but there

481
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: seems to be like another worship service already happening, and

482
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,239
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, let's not interrupt, like let's grab your

483
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,239
Speaker 3: backpack and go. And we kind of glance over and

484
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 3: he's like, oh, I know those guys. They like led

485
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: some sort of like little interim service for us once

486
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 3: during our youth camp, Like they're kind of chill, you

487
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: want to go poke your head? And I was like, no,

488
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 3: know those guys and he was like no, no, they're

489
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 3: really cool. Like I talked to them like let's just

490
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 3: go poke our heads, and so I was like okay,

491
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 3: and we went and kind of poked our heads in

492
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 3: and it was in mind on first impression, a group

493
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 3: of mostly middle aged people, very charismatic for my Christian

494
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 3: raising group of people singing and dancing and praising and worshiping,

495
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 3: and they've got like banners and ribbons and things. I'm

496
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: just not used to that, Like, that is not how

497
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 3: my group of people worshiped God at all. We stood

498
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: in pewes and we had our hymndals or we read

499
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 3: off of PowerPoint slide projectories and we stood still or

500
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 3: maybe did a taste, so a little back and forth

501
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: and that's all. But they were like they were going

502
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 3: for the Olympics.

503
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: They were raving.

504
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 3: They were like used car sales, new lan in front.

505
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: Of the cow. That sounds fun as all.

506
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were like joyful and they turned around and

507
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 3: saw us and instantly just like kind of set upon

508
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: us with these huge hugs and soles and they're like,

509
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 3: we're so glad you're here. And they're like who is

510
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: this and he's like this is my sister and they're

511
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: just like oh, and all the women come around me

512
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: and they're like, oh, you're so beautiful, you're so radiant,

513
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 3: like like would you love to stay and like worship

514
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 3: with us? And I was just like whoa wow. But

515
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 3: at the same time they seemed so genuine and so

516
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 3: sweet and so warm, and I'd never seen anything like

517
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 3: this before, and it was it was a little on.

518
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna tell you it wasn't a little on,

519
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: like the dancing and the waving and stuff, but it

520
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: felt nice to be like complimented and stuff. And I

521
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 3: never you know, I hadn't heard of doctor Hassan's bite

522
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 3: model yet, Like I didn't have done all of my studying.

523
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: I didn't know what love bombing was. So I was like,

524
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: these are and I was going through I was a teenager.

525
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 3: I was going through kind of a rough go with

526
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: my parents, as all teenagers kind of do with religious trauma, especially,

527
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: so I was having a tough time with my parents.

528
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: These are essentially pseudo parent substitutes who all tell me

529
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: that I'm gorgeous and beautiful and perfect and want to

530
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: give me big hugs. So I'm like, OK, yeah, I'll

531
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 3: come and.

532
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: Get hug show. Yeah. How many how many of them

533
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: were there?

534
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: Oh goodness? In total maybe at that worship service, like

535
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five uh. And they were just playing acoustic guitar,

536
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: going for it, and over the course of the evening,

537
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 3: like they broke into a little small group and they

538
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: did like a Bible study, and they did like prophetic word,

539
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: which I'd never heard or experienced before either, which essentially

540
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 3: equated to them saying like, since you're a special guest,

541
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: like we'll do it for you. We're gonna ask God

542
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: if he has any words about or for you and

543
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 3: about your future. And they all kind of went around

544
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: in a circle, and I was like, you guys are

545
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 3: gonna make everything just about me, and you're gonna ask

546
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 3: God about me, okay, Like if you want sure, I'll

547
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 3: do fortune telling all right. And it was all this

548
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 3: lovely mixture of like like God cherishes you and like

549
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: he adores you and you're like his blessed daughter, and

550
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 3: like there's powerful things for you to do in God's

551
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 3: kingdom and like the enemy sees that, and like he's

552
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 3: trying to like put this stronghold on your life, and

553
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 3: like the enemy is coming really strong against you right now.

554
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: Is an enemy?

555
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: The enemy?

556
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: Yes?

557
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 3: And I'm like he is, yeah, Like I have a

558
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 3: lot of really bad shit going on right now. And

559
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 3: they're like mm we can sense that. Yeah, Like the

560
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: Holy Spirit's telling us that, like you Loven, and I'm

561
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: like I do yeah.

562
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: And wait, this is like multiple people saying this to you.

563
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 3: A group of women like, wow, it was broken up

564
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 3: by gender, and my brother was kind of separated for

565
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: me and the men were all doing that for him.

566
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: So it's essentially this big like cold reading thing.

567
00:32:53,960 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: Yeah summer seriously Yeah yeah interesting.

568
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then at some point the leader kind of

569
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 3: comes over to me and my brother introduces me to

570
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: him and his name is Richard, which his name you

571
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: can include.

572
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: What's Richard like.

573
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: Richard Richard is or was? Then I haven't seen or

574
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 3: spoken to him in years and likely will not not

575
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: likely will not characters he in that moment was very

576
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: soft and gentle and charming. He was not and is

577
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 3: not an overly handsome man or an overly alluring man.

578
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 3: I think he was just he's average looking, average height,

579
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 3: average build, kind of dad body, middle aged, white hair.

580
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: The most striking thing physically about him. I think he

581
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: has nice blue eyes. But he has a very good

582
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 3: speaking voice, and he had a good cadence and uh,

583
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 3: he just had an air of authority about him and

584
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: he was a prophet.

585
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: Did he describe himself as such? He did in that

586
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 2: first meeting. Uh yeah, wow, that's the bold thing to Okay,

587
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: I'm Richard, I'm a prophet.

588
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, But it got off a little easier because he's like,

589
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 3: we're all prophets of God. He's just kind of using

590
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 3: that as like we're all apostles of Jesus or something.

591
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: So I was kind of like, he's not calling himself

592
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 3: a prophet per se. But as we continued on him like, no,

593
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 3: he's like capital the prophet.

594
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's really interesting. I feel like this

595
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: is such a cinematical way to end to a group,

596
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: because normally you hear such a it's a lot slower,

597
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 2: it's a lot more subtle, and it's a lot less

598
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: immediate love bombing from like a group of people all

599
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 2: at the same time. But you're like getting the you're

600
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 2: getting like the fast track version of all of this.

601
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 3: And the thing is is that it's still It was

602
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 3: the combination for me, I think of looking back, the

603
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 3: combination of I didn't have any people in my life

604
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 3: for me to bounce this encounter off of for me

605
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 3: to talk to and say, wasn't this weird?

606
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: Except your brother who already knew them and liked exactly.

607
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 3: Like my parents. I didn't really mention it too other

608
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 3: than yeah, I met some people worshiping at Max Youth

609
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: Camp and they're like, yeah, of course people were worshiping

610
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 3: in Max Youth Camp, Like obviously that's what they do there, right,

611
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 3: But like I at that time was really isolated and

612
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: I didn't really have a lot of friends at school,

613
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 3: and I was I had untreated depression because of the

614
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 3: Chrome's disease and a lot of other stuff like depression

615
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: and anxiety are comorbidities of Chrome's disease and a lot

616
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 3: of other autoimmune disorders, and like mine are in like

617
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: super well treated now, and I'm feeling fantastic in that

618
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 3: regard therapy amazing, it works, fantastic. Everybody, go do it

619
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 3: if you're able to, but like if it like because

620
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: of that too, I was just like kind of isolating myself,

621
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 3: and I just the combination of that isolation and the

622
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 3: desperation of like my circumstances, I just kind of fell

623
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 3: right in. And when they looked me in the eyes

624
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 3: and they were like, you need help, don't you?

625
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: I was just like yes, And what are the odds

626
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: that the one time you leave the house this happens?

627
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 3: Right? It felt like just my luck at that point,

628
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: But also it feels like a time, like a miracle.

629
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 3: I have email correspondents back and forth setting up scheduling

630
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 3: appointments with them, because after that, their offer to me

631
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 3: was like, how do we see you again? And I

632
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 3: was like, well, I don't know, how do I see

633
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 3: you guys again? Wandering we're shipping people, you know that

634
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 3: of song and Ribbon. They were like, well, Richard thought

635
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: that I could benefit from receiving some counseling. And I

636
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 3: was like, oh, like therapy. And he's like, we call

637
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 3: it counseling ministry because they legally can't call it therapy

638
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: because it's not what it is. That's not right. And

639
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 3: I've actually checked their website since then and they when

640
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: I enrolled in, it was called counseling. They've changed the

641
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: language on their website since then to remove the word

642
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 3: counseling as well. Now it's just called ministry. It's called

643
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 3: like healing ministry or something like that, because they can't

644
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: call it counseling either. For the better, I suppose, but

645
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: no one should do it anyway.

646
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,479
Speaker 2: In hindsight, now, without giving too much away about where

647
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 2: you end up hierarchically in this group, like was there

648
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: was there some kind of like system or teaching about

649
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 2: how to approach no people that you can now identify

650
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: in the way that these women spoke to you.

651
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 3: What's interesting is, no, there was never anything so overt

652
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 3: as that. And that's the thing to this moment that

653
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 3: I still believe is that I don't think that the

654
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 3: people at the level that I ended up at, at

655
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 3: the very least, we're doing anything with malicious intention. I

656
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 3: don't think that it was go out and you need

657
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: to hit this many numbers today. And that's kind of

658
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 3: the insidious thing about it, unfortunately, because I definitely did

659
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 3: that to people. I definitely love bombed people, and I

660
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 3: didn't know that that's what I was doing. I one

661
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 3: hundred percent cold red people again in a way. But

662
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 3: like it wasn't taught to me, like this is how

663
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 3: you do it, this is how you make it convincing,

664
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 3: this is how many people. It was just this is

665
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 3: how you love someone in a godly way, and me

666
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 3: are your spiritual gifts, and this is how you act

667
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: godly and if you are a godly Christian and if

668
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 3: you're in this group, this is how you should act

669
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 3: kind of behavior.

670
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: Right, It's more implicit than that. Yeah, Okay, that's that's interesting.

671
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 2: I mean it makes I think generally most people who

672
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 2: are like recruiting it like, are still believing they're doing

673
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: the right thing, and you know, like even when they

674
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: are taught in a more explicit way. But it sounds

675
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: like these women were just like, we must be godly

676
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: towards this precious young girl who clearly needs our help.

677
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 3: I do think at least the majority of them, right,

678
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 3: I think there there may have been a few, I

679
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 3: think who were in for lack of a better term,

680
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: like the higher echelons, who may have been more aware

681
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 3: of what they were doing.

682
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 2: But that's always there was always a few. It's always

683
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 2: a few, but not most, not most of them, I would,

684
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: I would estimate. But you mentioned traveling, So was this

685
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: a group that's like traveling around? Like, what's the situation?

686
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 3: So they were slightly itinerant insomuch as they did not

687
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 3: have a church building, sort of to your earlier question,

688
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: they did not have one church building. They met in

689
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 3: people's homes or anywhere that would have them. Their whole

690
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: stance was we need to get back to the true

691
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 3: scriptural church. We need to meet in smaller groups in

692
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 3: people's houses and homes and less flamboyantly. Ironically, we meet

693
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 3: kind of as the original Church of Christ met, like

694
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 3: the original apostles would have met. So we mostly met

695
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 3: in people's houses at first, and we did kind of

696
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 3: have a little boom there for a minute and then

697
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 3: dwindled back down there again. Athy, we have our numbers fluxuary. Right.

698
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: So all right, so you get this message saying you're

699
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: supposed to he wants you to do counseling with him.

700
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: So what does that mean to you and how do

701
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: you feel about it at that point?

702
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 3: At that point, I was ecstatic because when I heard

703
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 3: the word counseling, I thought therapy, and I'd always been

704
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 3: told and heard therapy is a good thing, and I

705
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: thought that I needed it especially well, I just thought

706
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 3: that I needed it. I recognized that I was probably anxious.

707
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 3: And I had heard the word depression for the first

708
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 3: time in undergraduate from like roommates who were like, hey,

709
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 3: I think you might have depression, And I was like,

710
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: what is that? So because yeah, so I was like

711
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 3: what is that? And she's like, you should look it

712
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 3: up on the internet. I think you might have that. Jesus.

713
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: Jesus says, you don't have that stuff. I'm pretty sure,

714
00:42:53,320 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 3: so I know. But so I was. I was excited,

715
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 3: I thought, finally and a godly therapist too, how grand,

716
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: So they won't teach you any of that bad evolutionary

717
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 3: therapy or whatever it is.

718
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 2: Right, group's kind of one, right, right? And did you

719
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: at that, like, did you already think that there was

720
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: something special about him?

721
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: Specifically absolutely after the first night. I mean, he emerged

722
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 3: between a crowd of people with an acoustic guitar and

723
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 3: looked me in the eye. But that I was a beautiful,

724
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 3: perfect angel who God told him was a beautiful, perfect angel.

725
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: I was like, God said that about me with his

726
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: blue eyes, I'd be done. Yeah.

727
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 3: He was essentially like a substitute father figure who had

728
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 3: a direct line to Jesus. And Jesus also said that

729
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 3: I was cool after like, my God, nineteen years of

730
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 3: me worrying that I was blowing everything in regards to

731
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: my Christian walk and that I actually wasn't even saved

732
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 3: because the whole stand at the door and knock, and

733
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 3: then Jesus says, actually, I don't even know who you are.

734
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 3: Back up, Like, I was so worried that whole time.

735
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: So I was like.

736
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 3: Instantly, Yeah, this man says I can help you solve

737
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 3: all your problems. And God, right, God wants to help you,

738
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 3: God wants to heal you. I'm like I thought, even

739
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 3: emotionally at that point, but I.

740
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: Was like still on, yes, please bring right on.

741
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 3: M H.

742
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: And So tell us about those first counseling quote and

743
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: quotation marks counseling sessions.

744
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 3: Well, the first counseling sessions were long. They were long.

745
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: It's the first thing I remember. They lasted like two

746
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: to four hours at the beginning. Wow.

747
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're sick.

748
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah I was sick.

749
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 1: Wow.

750
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 3: So that was one thing and I always remember that

751
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 3: that was a little odd, but I didn't really have

752
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: anything to measure that against, so I was like, maybe

753
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 3: therapy just takes a long time. They were free, which

754
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: was good, but they did always stress me like we

755
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 3: usually charge people for this, just so you know. And

756
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, so like are you going to

757
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 3: start charging me at some point? Like should I be

758
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 3: aware of that? And they're like no, just just so

759
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 3: you know. And I was like, so I shouldn't like

760
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 3: recommend it to people or like why are you telling

761
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 3: me this?

762
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, just to make sure you stay

763
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: grateful and keep wanting to go. Yeah, They're like, I'm like,

764
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: why are you telling me?

765
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 3: Why are you telling me? Sorry that I'm asking for it?

766
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 3: You told me to come.

767
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: I don't know.

768
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, So they initially we're just like, tell

769
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: us about your childhood, you know, basic kind of therapy

770
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 3: ass sounding stuff. And I'm like, okay, therapist are supposed

771
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,879
Speaker 3: to ask about your childhood. I've seen that on TV.

772
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 3: That makes sense. And then they're like, tell us about

773
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: your walk with Christ and like that sounds like Christian.

774
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: That sounds good. Okay, sounds good. And then they would

775
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 3: ask you about like sins that you were struggling with,

776
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 3: and I'm like that totally makes sense because you know

777
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 3: they ask about that in Sunday school, No big deal.

778
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 3: So then it's like you're talking about the sins that

779
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 3: you're struggling with. And this is again just for hours

780
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 3: and by day. I mean, my my sessions were always

781
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 3: led by Richard, and I will say anytime that I

782
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 3: was there, they always had another woman there as well.

783
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: Okay, I will put out something.

784
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 3: Yes, it was never just me and him by ourselves alone.

785
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 3: They always if I was doing counseling or a woman

786
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 3: was doing counseling. To their credit, there was always another

787
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 3: or at least two other women there, So okay, yeah,

788
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 3: But then eventually, I guess kind of when the boring

789
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 3: stuff ran out, we really quickly after, like by the

790
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 3: end of session one or the beginning of like the

791
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 3: second session, they were like kind of digging really deeply

792
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 3: into the idea of like spiritual warfare and the idea

793
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 3: of like my quote unquote sin causing repercussions in the

794
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 3: physical world. Yeah, I'm sure you kind of see where

795
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 3: this is going.

796
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 2: All right, go on, Yeah.

797
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 3: So the devil and angels are always fighting over the world,

798
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 3: and you know, whenever they see such a perfect, wonderful,

799
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 3: cool gem like me, one of God's favoritist babies, they

800
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 3: want to come and like kick my ass. Right, I'm like,

801
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: I guess that makes sense because you did tell me

802
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 3: last week Jesus said that I'm like a road dog,

803
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 3: so cool. And they're like, so that's what happened, is

804
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 3: that Satan has come and like probably kicked your ass.

805
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 3: But just in case it's not Satan, it could be

806
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 3: your fault too. And I'm like, oh no, like how so,

807
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: and they're like, okay, but gently, what's like all of

808
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 3: the bad things that you've ever done in your whole life?

809
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: This is scientology.

810
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 2: Seriously seriously.

811
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: Like scientology, let's just write this all down, all of

812
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: your worst secrets and things, and don't worry about it.

813
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 3: To write it down. I still have the handbook. It

814
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 3: was like a hundred pages.

815
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I couldn't even keep track of all the bad,

816
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 2: like of all the things I feel guilty about.

817
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 3: Sure I miss something, but I was. I was always

818
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 3: a good student. I was very diligent. So I tried.

819
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 3: I mean, if it would heal my Crohn's disease, I

820
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 3: wanted to try. And at first they didn't quite draw

821
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 3: the line that directly, but they would heavily imply like

822
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 3: sometimes whenever sin like is in your life. They kind

823
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: of loosely correlated it to the idea of like, well,

824
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 3: you know sometimes how trauma in the body or stress

825
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 3: in the body can cause physical symptoms. You know how

826
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 3: sometimes if you're stressed or you're overworked, then you get sick.

827
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 3: I'm like, I guess sometimes I've heard that if you

828
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 3: work too hard, you're more likely to get sick. Yeah,

829
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,479
Speaker 3: so they take that idea and they kind of spin

830
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: it to where they're like, well, if you have trauma

831
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 3: or like sin in your body, then it also can

832
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 3: make you sick because it's X. And then it kind

833
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 3: of naturally progresses.

834
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 2: From trauma or sin trauma or sin.

835
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 3: Yes, so trauma being things that happen to you as

836
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: well as things that you have done. So so you

837
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 3: don't know if it's or sexual abuse.

838
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: So but the trauma's things that have happened to you,

839
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 1: and the sin is the things that you have done.

840
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: Correct, But you don't know which is which correct, And

841
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 2: you also don't know if it's Satan doing it to

842
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: you because you're such a good person.

843
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 3: Correct.

844
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great point. So, like you don't know

845
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 1: if it's a sin and God is punishing you, or

846
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,919
Speaker 1: if you haven't sent it all in, Satan's just being

847
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 1: a dick to you because you're so adorably perfect.

848
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 3: Well, it's not God punishing you. God wouldn't do that because.

849
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: He's okay, okay, okay, So Satan then so then what

850
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,720
Speaker 2: just sin? Yeah? What is what is sin? Is that

851
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: Satan taking advantage of your like weak points.

852
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 3: So and again this has been a really long time

853
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 3: since I've been in this. But I think what it

854
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: is is that the sin or like the foul nature

855
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 3: of the trauma within you gives evil forces. I think

856
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 3: they revert to like they have their own language for

857
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 3: this stuff, and I am trying to remember the verbiage.

858
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 3: It's like legal right to your body and your soul,

859
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 3: so that like it gives them like claim to do.

860
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: I'm serious, they have so much lore. This is just like.

861
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 3: It's like a birthright or some sort of like legal

862
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 3: claim to your soul unless you purge it of all

863
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 3: of this stuff.

864
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: Legal claim, yes, Lord of the Ring level serious.

865
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 3: So like God has like saved your your eternal soul,

866
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 3: but while you're on earth, like you're under the domain

867
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 3: technically of like Satan because you're in a fallen world,

868
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: so legally technically it's kind of birthright.

869
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to start talking about the thing Satan is

870
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: legally allowed to do because I think it's very funny.

871
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 3: But that I mean, yeah, keep wow, this is a

872
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 3: lore lore heavy call this.

873
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: This has backstory for days.

874
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 2: It does, I mean, but the thing that's so insidious there,

875
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 2: I mean, there are two things I guess for me,

876
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: which one is like yes, stress is bad for your body.

877
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 2: We all know that stress isn't like good for our health.

878
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 2: And yeah, like those things yes, technically don't make you healthier.

879
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 2: But to then take that and turn it into if

880
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 2: you have any trauma in your body or if you

881
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 2: do anything that's causing you stress, then you gave yourself

882
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: Crohn's disease. That's not that, that is not correct. That

883
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 2: is fucked up. And the other piece of it is

884
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: that like if you never know within this lore like

885
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 2: what's your fault and what isn't, like, you're gonna become

886
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I would become at least hyper vigilant at

887
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,760
Speaker 2: all times about whether I'm doing things that are making

888
00:52:58,800 --> 00:52:59,439
Speaker 2: me more sick.

889
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 3: That's weird. That's like exactly what I did. That's weird.

890
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: But you were there and so so strange.

891
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's literally exactly what happened. And something to

892
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 3: note too is that like if you run out of things,

893
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 3: because the goal here is like you run through a

894
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 3: list of your own personal sins. Right, So if you're

895
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 3: a weird little freak like me and you're able to

896
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 3: do the one hundred page worksheet or whatever, and you

897
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 3: go through all of your own sins, and you go

898
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 3: through your own traumas that have been inflicted upon you.

899
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 3: After you go through your own sins with people who

900
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 3: are not licensed to handle bringing up those triggering events,

901
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 3: which they are not, sometimes for the first time, you

902
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 3: are bringing them up with those people, So it's triggering

903
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 3: to do that. And in my case, like I will

904
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 3: just say, like I did bring up some personal like

905
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 3: traumatic events with those guys for the first time, and

906
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 3: they were not qualified to handle it, and they viewed

907
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 3: my triggered emotional response as proof of spiritual warfare, might

908
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 3: like crying or anxiety attacks as evidence that Satan was

909
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 3: like affecting me. And it just goes on and on.

910
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 3: Every piece of emotional reaction is used as evidence to

911
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 3: validate their claims. But if you get through all of

912
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 3: that and you go to about I went to about

913
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:41,760
Speaker 3: a year or two of ministry sessions with those guys,

914
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 3: and eventually I ran out of my own sins and

915
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 3: my commas after that. And at the same time I

916
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 3: was going to ministry and I was going to their

917
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,479
Speaker 3: own church and stuff like that. You have to start

918
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 3: reaching backward. Maybe it was something that your parents did,

919
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 3: Maybe was something that your grandparents did.

920
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: Maybe, Oh, my god.

921
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 3: Maybe your grandparent joined a Masonic lodge, maybe was actually

922
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 3: a Satanist. And that's where we landed in about I

923
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 3: joined the group in like twenty fourteen, and then around

924
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen we introduced the concept that I just hinted at,

925
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 3: when you run out of ideas, what do you have

926
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 3: to do to keep people in once they complete all

927
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 3: of your ministry, you got to start digging for more ideas.

928
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 2: You gotta start inventing a Satanic past. Correct, God, damn.

929
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: That's the most interesting story.

930
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 2: I was on the website for Operation light Force, and

931
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: so I was like watching some of what's his face,

932
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: what's his name? Richard Richard's video, and I specifically made

933
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: a note of a couple of the things that he

934
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 2: put in this video. It's an introductory video to the course.

935
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 2: He's trying to get you to buy the course. But

936
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: one of them was called Prescriptions for Healing spelled prescriptions Fyi.

937
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 2: It says there's a quote that says no sorry, separate,

938
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 2: separate thought. So this course claimed to heal a variety

939
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 2: of things, including things that sound fine, like you know,

940
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 2: anxiety or whatever. But then it says one God's will

941
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: to heal you, so not just like whether God is

942
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,959
Speaker 2: willing to heal you. And then two generational curses, which

943
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,359
Speaker 2: I'm guessing is referring to the thing you're talking about.

944
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 2: And then also it has freedom from the occult. Yes,

945
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 2: so these are things that So basically what's being set

946
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 2: up here is a structure where you can never win.

947
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 2: The goalpost will move forward wherever, which is a classic

948
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 2: cult tactic. And then also we're bringing the Satanic We're

949
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 2: bringing Satanic panic into things, which is never good. It's

950
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: never good.

951
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 3: No, it is never good. Also, I would like to

952
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 3: point out that on his website currently, like their whole

953
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 3: structure has changed to build themselves as like a university

954
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 3: now instead of a church, which I thought is fun

955
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 3: and interesting. They're selling their courses instead of being a church,

956
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 3: which I was like, rude to your church from a

957
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 3: long time ago, but whatever, But yeah, yeah, panic is

958
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 3: here in a major way. And as soon as I

959
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 3: had gotten out realized what it was, which took a

960
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 3: long time in and of itself, and kind of recovered

961
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 3: from that and started doing some research and discovered like

962
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 3: Bob Larsen and Michelle Remembers and the Satanic panic movement.

963
00:57:54,640 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 3: I was shocked at how exact exactly matches it was.

964
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 3: It was almost word for word exactly some of those stories.

965
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 2: And we'll leave part one there for now, come back

966
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 2: for part two. There's so much more to get into

967
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 2: with Caitlin Megan. Do you think that you would ever

968
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 2: join a faith healing group or you know, engage in

969
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 2: faith healing practices?

970
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: Most definitely. I have a very uh, what's the word,

971
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: missing piece of armor around like the part of my

972
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: psyche that like, I think everything's my fault. She kind

973
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: of said that similarly, you know so, And I think

974
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: that if I just believe differently, like you have different

975
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: core beliefs or different whatever, that the reality around me

976
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: will change. So I can absolutely see myself getting pulled

977
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: into a group like this.

978
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 2: Interesting. I don't think that would quite be my angle in,

979
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: but I think that because I have experienced what it's

980
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: like to have severe anxiety and have a hyperfixation like

981
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 2: on a sensation, and I've experienced the process of like

982
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 2: working on that and learning to not hyperfixate so much,

983
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 2: and then like noticing that some symptoms get better, not

984
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:27,919
Speaker 2: like real illness, but like some symptoms like sensations get

985
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 2: better when I'm not so anxious about them. I could

986
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 2: see myself falling into a similar way of thinking, where

987
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 2: it's just more like, oh, well, it's just because you're

988
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: so anxious about this.

989
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 3: You know.

990
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 2: Like I could see myself really gas letting myself if

991
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 2: I had like an actual serious symptom, because I've experienced

992
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 2: the anxious side of that, you know.

993
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: But it's just so interesting in Caitlin's story, how many

994
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: of the just natural progression of Crohn's disease fits into

995
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: faith feeling perfectly.

996
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: It's bizarre because like it can just spontaneously get better

997
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 2: and it's exacerbated by stress. I mean, so many things

998
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 2: are exacerbated by stress, but that doesn't mean that stress

999
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 2: is the cause of them or the or that removing

1000
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 2: stress is going to heal them. And I think that's

1001
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 2: an important distinction.

1002
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think I've read a lot about how some

1003
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: people who follow Keith ri Nare and Nexium remain and

1004
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: remain stuck on him for so long because of the

1005
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: couple of people that he cured from Tourette syndrome, which

1006
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: had been widely documented.

1007
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 2: Have you seen this, Yeah, Yeah, And I'm that's a

1008
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 2: part of that that I I mean, I don't really

1009
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 2: know much about Tourette's syndrome, so I don't really want

1010
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 2: to speak to it out out of turn or anything,

1011
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 2: but that is a facet I'm very curious about with

1012
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 2: regards to that group, Like how much of Tourette syndrome

1013
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 2: is what is the origin of it? I guess, And

1014
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 2: that could be an interesting thing to dive into in

1015
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 2: a future episode.

1016
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, talking about this just brought that to mind for

1017
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: some reason.

1018
01:00:58,120 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think I think some of the

1019
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 2: one of the things that you know, we really see

1020
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 2: a lot is like there are these moments that really

1021
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 2: feel like miracles with a lot of these total scam artists,

1022
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 2: and the explanations for that are myriad and varied and

1023
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 2: totally depends on the person and the group and the

1024
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 2: you know, like there might be a perfect confluence of factors,

1025
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: just like something we're going to talk about next week

1026
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 2: about Caitlin's period of spontaneous remission that really felt miraculous.

1027
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 2: You know how much of it is like that? Probably

1028
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: a lot, probably mostly all of it.

1029
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: It's so wild.

1030
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard, It's it's definitely hard. Just that would

1031
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: be something that would be hard for me to square

1032
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 2: ify I as an exium for sure.

1033
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sam, Well, next week's episode is a banger. We

1034
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 1: can't wait for y'all to hear it. Thank you as

1035
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: alais for listening to us. Rate us five stars if

1036
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 1: you want to uh huh, and as always, remember to

1037
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and never

1038
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: ever trusts me.

1039
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 2: Bye right. Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby

1040
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 2: Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1041
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1042
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1043
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1044
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1045
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1046
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1047
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1048
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter. Remember to rate and review and spread

1049
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 1: the word