WEBVTT - A First Responder's Call for Help 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:23.436 Pushkin. Hi. Everyone. This episode contains mentions of suicide and 0:00:23.556 --> 0:00:28.316 graphic descriptions of injury, including burns on children. Please take 0:00:28.356 --> 0:00:41.196 care while listening. There's so many important things that go 0:00:41.236 --> 0:00:43.236 on in this world and so many important people. But 0:00:43.876 --> 0:00:46.356 when your life is falling apart, you know, are the 0:00:46.396 --> 0:00:49.756 worst day of your life? I mean, who's more valuable 0:00:49.756 --> 0:00:52.156 than some person who's going to come and fix it, 0:00:52.276 --> 0:00:55.436 or who's going to come and save you. Christy Warren 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:58.716 served as a firefighter and paramedic in California starting in 0:00:58.756 --> 0:01:01.716 the nineteen nineties. She was committed to being one of 0:01:01.756 --> 0:01:05.636 the toughest and strongest members on her team, and often 0:01:05.796 --> 0:01:08.956 that meant concealing the challenging emotions that came along with 0:01:09.236 --> 0:01:14.356 daily exposure to life and death situations. For decades, Christie 0:01:14.356 --> 0:01:18.076 placed every difficult feeling she experienced into a box in 0:01:18.116 --> 0:01:20.956 the back of her mind. But after a while the 0:01:21.036 --> 0:01:24.996 box became so full it burst open. It was like 0:01:25.076 --> 0:01:29.116 being locked in a movie theater with something just horrible playing, 0:01:29.236 --> 0:01:31.116 with the volume turned all the way up and the 0:01:31.156 --> 0:01:33.116 brightness turned all the way up, and you can't close 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:35.836 your eyes and you can't get away from it. And 0:01:35.956 --> 0:01:39.276 that would go on for I mean all day until 0:01:39.316 --> 0:01:41.716 I'd fall asleep, and you know, then I'd have nightmares 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:45.236 and I'd wake up screaming, and I'd flip myself out 0:01:45.236 --> 0:01:49.236 of bed, and I just it was just like the 0:01:49.276 --> 0:01:56.236 most painful thing ever. On today's episode, what Happens when 0:01:56.236 --> 0:02:01.596 a first Responder needs saving, I'm maya Shunker and this 0:02:01.676 --> 0:02:04.076 is a slight change of plans, a show about who 0:02:04.116 --> 0:02:06.476 we are and who we become in the face of 0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:12.836 a big change. I actually got to know Christy Warren 0:02:12.876 --> 0:02:15.316 through a slight change of plans. She was a fan 0:02:15.356 --> 0:02:17.396 of the show and reached out to me about her 0:02:17.396 --> 0:02:22.036 transformative experiences as a first responder. I was really taken 0:02:22.076 --> 0:02:26.236 by Christie's message and her thoughtful, candid nature. I asked 0:02:26.276 --> 0:02:27.996 her if she would join me on the show and 0:02:28.116 --> 0:02:31.636 share her story with all of you. Christie began her 0:02:31.676 --> 0:02:34.596 career in the San Francisco Bay Area. She worked in 0:02:34.676 --> 0:02:37.796 Vallejo as a paramedic, then in Berkeley as a firefighter. 0:02:38.396 --> 0:02:41.236 Her identity as a first responder made her feel valued, 0:02:41.676 --> 0:02:44.516 which was in stark contrast to how she felt growing up. 0:02:45.796 --> 0:02:48.756 I had a pretty challenging childhood. You know, I felt 0:02:49.276 --> 0:02:54.396 pretty invisible. My mom was interested in other stuff, pretty 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:57.836 much anything besides myself. She was nineteen when she got 0:02:57.876 --> 0:03:01.836 pregnant with me, and she was like a world partygoer, 0:03:01.996 --> 0:03:05.796 and she was really never around much at all. And 0:03:05.916 --> 0:03:09.996 my parents got divorced when I was four, and and 0:03:10.036 --> 0:03:13.516 then my mom got remarried and my stepfather was really 0:03:13.556 --> 0:03:16.676 into drugs, and so she really got into drugs, and 0:03:16.716 --> 0:03:20.036 so when she was around, she wasn't around, if that 0:03:20.116 --> 0:03:22.436 makes any sense. It was like I felt like I 0:03:22.476 --> 0:03:26.556 had to grow up really really fast. It was all 0:03:26.596 --> 0:03:30.276 about like how quickly can I grow up and get 0:03:30.316 --> 0:03:32.356 out of here and not have to be in this 0:03:32.476 --> 0:03:36.636 mess and depend on somebody else and just take care 0:03:36.636 --> 0:03:42.436 of myself and so yeah, so you know, I felt 0:03:42.436 --> 0:03:44.516 real invisible. You know. It's kind of like there's a 0:03:44.676 --> 0:03:47.676 saying like, oh, that's person's only person a mother can love, 0:03:47.716 --> 0:03:50.636 and it's like, well, you know, I felt like it's like, well, 0:03:50.756 --> 0:03:53.036 my mom didn't even love me, so you know what 0:03:53.116 --> 0:03:56.676 does that make me? And I would do a lot 0:03:56.676 --> 0:03:58.556 of stuff to try and get her attention. I always 0:03:58.596 --> 0:04:02.076 would run away. The street that I lived on, though, 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:05.636 was a tree fort up in this tree, and you know, 0:04:05.676 --> 0:04:07.756 as kids would go play up in there. And then 0:04:07.756 --> 0:04:09.476 one day I was up there by myself, and I 0:04:09.556 --> 0:04:13.556 was like, I'm going to jump and maybe then she'll 0:04:13.556 --> 0:04:18.836 pay attention to me. And so I jumped and I 0:04:18.956 --> 0:04:22.836 landed on my feet, you know, fell forward. It kind 0:04:22.836 --> 0:04:24.956 of took inventory and I was fine, and I was 0:04:25.036 --> 0:04:27.836 kind of pissed because it was like I was hoping. 0:04:27.956 --> 0:04:29.636 I was hoping to get her or break a leg 0:04:29.716 --> 0:04:31.876 or something. So it's like my mom would have to 0:04:31.876 --> 0:04:36.396 take care of me or have to pay attention to me. Wow. 0:04:38.796 --> 0:04:42.436 So Christie, you you ultimately end up training and passing 0:04:42.516 --> 0:04:46.676 all the required tests to become a paramedic. Can you 0:04:46.716 --> 0:04:50.716 tell me more about what those early years were like 0:04:50.836 --> 0:04:53.276 for you? What I would call the golden years of 0:04:53.356 --> 0:04:56.916 Christie's time. You know, they were the golden years. Yeah, No, 0:04:57.076 --> 0:05:02.636 they are totally the golden years. They were. It was 0:05:02.756 --> 0:05:05.756 really the best time of my life. You know. I 0:05:05.796 --> 0:05:08.636 started when I was nineteen, so as in my early twenties, 0:05:09.276 --> 0:05:12.876 and I worked in Valeo. So like the car accidents 0:05:13.036 --> 0:05:16.756 and the shootings and the stabbings and all that kind 0:05:16.756 --> 0:05:21.156 of stuff just were rampant, just all the time, every day, 0:05:21.196 --> 0:05:24.916 and I couldn't get enough I was like a little 0:05:24.996 --> 0:05:27.956 kid in a candy shop. I mean, this sounds horrible, 0:05:28.076 --> 0:05:32.276 but you know, the the bloodier and the worse and 0:05:32.356 --> 0:05:38.476 the more intricate and smashed up things, the better I 0:05:38.556 --> 0:05:43.196 performed and the better I felt afterwards. And you know, 0:05:43.436 --> 0:05:45.716 and I think it also goes back to being needed. 0:05:45.956 --> 0:05:49.836 You know, when there's an accident, everybody slows down and looks, 0:05:49.836 --> 0:05:53.076 and the animals drives by, Everybody kind of looks, and 0:05:53.876 --> 0:05:56.436 for me to like to be there, and how visible 0:05:56.476 --> 0:06:00.356 I would be, It's like I would be where everybody 0:06:00.596 --> 0:06:03.236 not necessarily wanted to be, but wanted to look. And 0:06:03.436 --> 0:06:07.916 I was. I was important and I was valued. And 0:06:08.156 --> 0:06:10.236 I mean there's so many important things that go on 0:06:10.316 --> 0:06:12.996 in this world and so many important people. But when 0:06:12.996 --> 0:06:15.596 your life is falling apart, you know, or the worst 0:06:15.676 --> 0:06:19.316 day of your life, I mean, who's more valuable than 0:06:20.196 --> 0:06:21.996 some person who's going to come and fix it, or 0:06:22.036 --> 0:06:26.156 who's going to come and save you, or even just 0:06:26.276 --> 0:06:31.196 know what to do. And so by being in that environment, 0:06:31.396 --> 0:06:38.636 I felt valued, I felt important, I felt needed, and 0:06:38.836 --> 0:06:42.356 I was visible. I wasn't invisible anymore. Yeah, I mean, 0:06:42.356 --> 0:06:44.676 you say it sounds weird, but it makes so much 0:06:44.716 --> 0:06:49.116 sense that the more the situation calls of you, the 0:06:49.196 --> 0:06:52.276 more valuable you feel, and therefore it might bring out 0:06:52.316 --> 0:06:55.796 the best in you in your first responder skills. Yeah. 0:06:55.916 --> 0:06:58.076 I would have done it for free. I mean I 0:06:58.156 --> 0:07:00.956 just loved I worked so much over time, you know, 0:07:00.956 --> 0:07:03.236 I almost worked every single day. You know, he worked 0:07:03.276 --> 0:07:06.276 twenty four hour shifts, and so I was tired, but 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:09.836 it was like the most satisfying tired. I just would 0:07:09.876 --> 0:07:15.396 almost say it was bliss. I was so happy. There's 0:07:15.436 --> 0:07:18.436 this moment, relatively early in your career where you get 0:07:18.476 --> 0:07:22.396 a hint of just how psychologically taxing this job can be. 0:07:22.796 --> 0:07:27.196 You end up perceiving one particularly harrowing call in which 0:07:27.236 --> 0:07:30.076 a mother and her four kids are trapped in a 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:32.436 burning house, and and you're the first person called on 0:07:32.476 --> 0:07:38.316 this scene that night. Do you mind sharing what unfolded? Yeah? Yeah, 0:07:38.356 --> 0:07:41.436 for sure. So yeah, So we I was working on 0:07:41.476 --> 0:07:44.876 the ambulance and we were dispatched to a house fire, 0:07:45.116 --> 0:07:49.156 and the whole second story of the house had flames 0:07:49.636 --> 0:07:52.836 blowing out of it, and there was a mother hanging 0:07:52.876 --> 0:07:56.556 on to a firefighter, just screaming that her kids were inside, 0:07:57.676 --> 0:07:59.756 And so I asked her how many kids are inside, 0:07:59.796 --> 0:08:05.636 and she screamed four and a firefighter at that time 0:08:05.716 --> 0:08:09.756 came out and said, I have one kid. I don't 0:08:09.756 --> 0:08:11.396 know if we can do anything for him. Will you 0:08:11.396 --> 0:08:13.156 come in and look? And I said sure. So I 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:15.996 went in and it was a would turned out to 0:08:15.996 --> 0:08:19.396 be a four year old kid who was burned beyond recognition, 0:08:19.676 --> 0:08:22.796 you know, he'd no fingers or toes or ears, or 0:08:22.876 --> 0:08:27.596 nose or lips, and so I said, you just I go. No, 0:08:27.716 --> 0:08:29.476 there's nothing we can do for him. I said, but 0:08:29.516 --> 0:08:31.876 you got to leave us inside. You can't take it outside, 0:08:31.876 --> 0:08:35.196 and the mother can't see it, the neighborhood can't see it. 0:08:35.836 --> 0:08:37.996 And I'm very sure I referred to it as an 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:40.436 it and not a he or a she. So I 0:08:40.476 --> 0:08:44.036 went back out, and then a firefighter came running out 0:08:44.076 --> 0:08:46.916 and handed me and his kid. You know, his legs 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:49.516 and arms were bouncing because it's so limp and has 0:08:49.596 --> 0:08:53.276 you know, skin has burned off of him, like hanging 0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:55.956 like a spider web. And he hands me this kid, 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:59.036 and I'm like, okay, And so I jump in the 0:08:59.036 --> 0:09:00.636 back of my ambulance and I put the kid on 0:09:00.676 --> 0:09:02.716 the gurney and I'm just starting to try and get 0:09:02.716 --> 0:09:05.916 it airway, and another firefighter comes out with another kid 0:09:05.956 --> 0:09:08.276 and hands me the kid and I put him on 0:09:08.316 --> 0:09:11.876 my gurney. And then another firefighter comes out with another 0:09:11.956 --> 0:09:16.236 kid in the same condition, and so I happened to 0:09:16.236 --> 0:09:20.276 the back of my ambulance again and like almost looked 0:09:20.276 --> 0:09:21.796 for a second, like, Hey, which kid do I pick 0:09:21.876 --> 0:09:24.756 to start working on first? Like who deserves to live 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:31.116 more than the other? Um? Yeah, we all we all 0:09:31.156 --> 0:09:33.396 went to the hospital after that with our kids and 0:09:33.476 --> 0:09:36.516 did they survive? To the three children of four survived. 0:09:37.276 --> 0:09:40.356 The three children did survive. A couple of them had 0:09:40.436 --> 0:09:43.716 like severe severe burns, and you know, I went we 0:09:43.716 --> 0:09:46.716 went to the hospital to see him afterwards, and the 0:09:46.796 --> 0:09:48.916 one kid was, you know, like a two year old 0:09:49.156 --> 0:09:52.036 was in you know bed, It was laying on its back. 0:09:52.156 --> 0:09:54.996 It was just completely wrapped in gauze. It had tubes 0:09:55.036 --> 0:09:58.636 coming out of everywhere. And and my thought was, like, 0:09:59.276 --> 0:10:01.036 nobody's going to be able to pick this kid up 0:10:01.036 --> 0:10:06.636 and hold it for for months and months and months, 0:10:06.756 --> 0:10:08.436 and what this kid's gonna have to go through this 0:10:08.596 --> 0:10:10.516 of all the and that had been burned off, you 0:10:10.556 --> 0:10:14.596 mean yeah, burned off and yeah wow, uh, but they 0:10:14.636 --> 0:10:21.876 did the three of them they survived, and then what 0:10:21.956 --> 0:10:26.676 was the um what was the aftermath of this? It 0:10:26.756 --> 0:10:29.036 was kind of a big deal in the community, and 0:10:29.116 --> 0:10:33.756 so they did what it's called a critical instance stress debriefing. 0:10:34.476 --> 0:10:36.716 So what happens is, you know, it's totally confidential, and 0:10:36.916 --> 0:10:39.396 everybody sits in a circle and kind of go around 0:10:39.436 --> 0:10:41.716 the room and you know, say what we did on 0:10:41.716 --> 0:10:45.516 the call, and you know, any feelings we had afterwards, 0:10:45.516 --> 0:10:47.516 and it's this kind of a way to like bring 0:10:47.516 --> 0:10:50.316 closure to it, and you know, have everybody talked together. 0:10:50.396 --> 0:10:53.676 And so everybody was going around the room and everybody 0:10:53.756 --> 0:10:57.356 was crying and like just talking and through tears, and 0:10:57.996 --> 0:11:01.036 it came to me and I was like, well, I 0:11:01.116 --> 0:11:03.756 was the first medical scene, and I just kind of 0:11:03.836 --> 0:11:06.076 told the story what I did, like I was talking 0:11:06.116 --> 0:11:10.836 about a frantic mom and or severely burned kids, like 0:11:10.876 --> 0:11:13.036 I was talking about a trip to the grocery store. 0:11:14.516 --> 0:11:17.076 I wasn't trying to push down any feelings. In fact, 0:11:17.076 --> 0:11:19.076 I was trying to cry because I felt like such 0:11:19.116 --> 0:11:22.276 an asshole for not crying, Like my god, my heartless, 0:11:22.316 --> 0:11:26.196 and and I just kind of went on and it, 0:11:26.516 --> 0:11:30.316 you know, didn't I didn't think it affected me at all, 0:11:30.796 --> 0:11:32.756 And I think I just put it in a box 0:11:32.796 --> 0:11:34.676 somewhere and close the lid and was able to not 0:11:34.756 --> 0:11:38.436 look at it again. It's like you take these bad 0:11:38.476 --> 0:11:40.436 calls and you put them in a box and you 0:11:40.516 --> 0:11:42.996 close the lid, and so you don't see it and 0:11:42.996 --> 0:11:45.636 you don't hear it, and it's just pushed away somewhere. 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:50.236 And that's what I did my whole career. Had you 0:11:50.796 --> 0:11:55.396 ever been given training about the psychological and emotional size 0:11:55.396 --> 0:12:02.076 of the job. Nothing, absolutely nothing, never taught anything at all. Yeah, no, clue. 0:12:02.356 --> 0:12:05.196 The whole thing is about, you know, suck it up, buttercup. 0:12:05.236 --> 0:12:08.156 And if you're not, if you get sad about anything, 0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:11.116 or if you feel anything, then then you're just you 0:12:11.156 --> 0:12:14.436 can't hang and so you just you just go on. 0:12:17.676 --> 0:12:23.716 I'm wondering, were there other coping mechanisms you found yourself 0:12:23.756 --> 0:12:28.396 employing just to survive in a role like this, you know. 0:12:28.436 --> 0:12:31.716 So yeah, one thing one thing we do is is 0:12:31.836 --> 0:12:34.796 rationalize kind of what happened. And you know, even for 0:12:34.876 --> 0:12:37.556 that fire, was like, well, the mom was next door, 0:12:37.636 --> 0:12:40.636 she should have been with her kids, and you know, 0:12:40.676 --> 0:12:43.236 and there's a drunk driver that you know, runs into 0:12:43.236 --> 0:12:45.716 a tree and it's like she went drinking or they 0:12:45.716 --> 0:12:49.916 didn't wear their seatbelt, you know, or you know, they 0:12:49.916 --> 0:12:51.996 shouldn't have been out this late at night, Like who 0:12:52.036 --> 0:12:54.116 goes out at two in the morning and doesn't expect 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:56.916 to get you know, shot or stabbed or robbed, and 0:12:56.916 --> 0:13:01.156 and so, yeah, so we would rationalize it. And in rationalizing, 0:13:01.196 --> 0:13:05.076 I'm assuming that this was your effort to just draw 0:13:05.916 --> 0:13:09.916 psychological and emotional distance between you and the person that 0:13:10.276 --> 0:13:13.236 was wounded. Yeah, that that felt, was that that gave 0:13:13.236 --> 0:13:16.676 you some sort of emotional protection, is that right? Right? 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:20.516 Kind of like they brought this on themselves and they 0:13:20.556 --> 0:13:23.276 should have known better, and yeah, it sucks, but they 0:13:23.276 --> 0:13:25.956 should have they should have done something different, because if 0:13:25.956 --> 0:13:28.996 they're culpable, then there can be limits on the amount 0:13:28.996 --> 0:13:33.196 of empathy that you feel. Exactly, Yes, hit the nail 0:13:33.196 --> 0:13:36.196 on the head, Yeah, got it. Okay, it's really interesting. 0:13:38.116 --> 0:13:43.196 So your performance, Christie starts getting noticed by leaders in 0:13:43.236 --> 0:13:46.636 the fire department, right. Yeah. So yeah, I was a 0:13:46.636 --> 0:13:50.636 brand new firefighter and I had a captain who said, 0:13:51.196 --> 0:13:53.396 we are waiting for somebody, and he says, hey, he goes, 0:13:53.596 --> 0:13:55.956 I'm hearing really good things about you. I'm hearing you're 0:13:55.956 --> 0:13:58.316 a really good medic and I hear you can definitely 0:13:58.356 --> 0:14:01.676 hold your own on the fire ground and I said, well, 0:14:01.716 --> 0:14:04.956 that's nice. You know, I appreciate that. And you know, 0:14:04.996 --> 0:14:07.596 and he said, you know, women don't typically make it 0:14:07.596 --> 0:14:10.836 to retirement, and he was being malicious in anyway. He 0:14:10.916 --> 0:14:12.956 was just saying, you know, that's just kind of what happens. 0:14:12.996 --> 0:14:16.716 And you know, we're smaller, and you know, when you're 0:14:16.716 --> 0:14:18.796 in the industry for a long time, you know, everything 0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:22.596 gets trained and torned and pushed, and so you know, 0:14:22.636 --> 0:14:26.756 women tend to retire early due to an injury or 0:14:26.876 --> 0:14:29.636 sometimes her body just can't hold up anymore, and so 0:14:29.956 --> 0:14:31.436 you know they'll go to a desk job, like in 0:14:31.516 --> 0:14:35.436 fire prevention. And boy, he said that, and I reacted like, 0:14:35.476 --> 0:14:37.836 there's no way in hell that that's going to be me. 0:14:38.076 --> 0:14:41.076 I will make it to retirement. I'm not going to 0:14:41.116 --> 0:14:44.316 be one of those token women. If a man goes 0:14:44.356 --> 0:14:46.916 down in a fire, you know, everybody will say, you know, 0:14:46.956 --> 0:14:50.076 what a hero he gave it, as all this is 0:14:50.116 --> 0:14:53.636 so tragic. But if a woman goes down in a fire, 0:14:54.036 --> 0:14:57.076 what has typically said is she shouldn't have been there 0:14:57.076 --> 0:14:59.196 in the first place, Like the reason why she went 0:14:59.236 --> 0:15:02.876 down is because she couldn't handle it. And that's kind 0:15:02.876 --> 0:15:06.676 of the narrative for I mean for a very long time. 0:15:07.676 --> 0:15:13.236 And and so yeah, so you know, my goal was 0:15:13.276 --> 0:15:15.756 to work my ass off and never be that woman 0:15:15.796 --> 0:15:19.236 who shouldn't have been there. Yeah, and you were carrying, 0:15:20.436 --> 0:15:23.756 I guess on your shoulders this big achievement for women 0:15:23.756 --> 0:15:27.036 in your field, right, Like, if I make it to retirement, 0:15:27.196 --> 0:15:31.636 then I represent what's possible for women exactly exactly, you know. 0:15:31.676 --> 0:15:33.596 And I also said too, I will never be the 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:36.676 weak link in the chain. I will not be like 0:15:36.716 --> 0:15:40.636 the weak person on the engine. I will always step 0:15:40.716 --> 0:15:43.596 up and do my job. And if I am weak 0:15:43.676 --> 0:15:45.436 in some area, I will go work on it and 0:15:45.476 --> 0:15:49.116 become stronger in that area. I will drag myself to 0:15:49.196 --> 0:15:52.516 retirement if I have to. And that was just and 0:15:52.876 --> 0:15:55.836 that does kind of become a mantra for me, and 0:15:56.156 --> 0:15:59.236 it's just like, yeah, there's there's no question. Where do 0:15:59.276 --> 0:16:03.156 you think that drive came from. I have no doubt 0:16:03.156 --> 0:16:05.596 it came from my childhood. You know, I played sports 0:16:05.596 --> 0:16:09.556 a lot, and and that was kind of the only 0:16:09.596 --> 0:16:12.796 time that I would get any recognition or anybody would 0:16:12.876 --> 0:16:15.116 notice me. Is you know, when I really stood out 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:19.156 and did something great. And you know, my mom would 0:16:19.156 --> 0:16:20.956 come to some of the games, and when I did 0:16:20.996 --> 0:16:23.716 really well, it's like she'd run around and tell everybody 0:16:23.716 --> 0:16:27.836 that I'm her mother and she's my daughter, and it 0:16:27.916 --> 0:16:30.316 was like, well that's nice, Like, you know, can you 0:16:30.476 --> 0:16:32.956 do that when we're at home? And I don't know. 0:16:33.396 --> 0:16:35.916 So that was when I got That's when I got 0:16:35.956 --> 0:16:39.116 noticed or paid attention to. Is when I was when 0:16:39.116 --> 0:16:41.636 I did something really great. Yeah, you like, can I 0:16:41.676 --> 0:16:45.316 just get noticed when I'm not doing something extraordinary exactly 0:16:45.356 --> 0:16:48.036 when I'm just kind of being me? Yeah? Yeah, just 0:16:48.116 --> 0:16:52.436 being me? Wow. Okay, So you have this conversation with him, 0:16:52.436 --> 0:16:55.556 you have this resolve, and I'm going to fast forward 0:16:55.596 --> 0:16:59.436 now roughly fifteen years. You're called to the scene of 0:16:59.436 --> 0:17:04.076 a fire and you're asked to identify if there are 0:17:04.116 --> 0:17:07.636 any humans still in that building. So yeah, so we 0:17:07.636 --> 0:17:12.436 were dispatched to how fire and were got their second 0:17:12.476 --> 0:17:15.116 and the first engine had already gone in and knocked 0:17:15.156 --> 0:17:18.076 out most of the fire. Me and my crew were 0:17:18.076 --> 0:17:22.036 sent in and battalion chief told me, you know, everybody 0:17:22.036 --> 0:17:25.396 out here keeps saying that there's somebody inside still. He 0:17:25.436 --> 0:17:27.236 goes I don't think there is, but will you and 0:17:27.276 --> 0:17:29.236 your crew I please go in and just make sure 0:17:29.236 --> 0:17:33.516 there's nobody in there still. And I'm like absolutely, So, 0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:36.436 you know, we went up there, and the way the 0:17:36.476 --> 0:17:39.996 fire had burned was really strange, and it kind of 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:43.396 distracted me, and it distracted my crew a little bit, 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.836 and we looked around. We kind of poked our head 0:17:46.876 --> 0:17:49.356 in there, but didn't look really well. And like I said, 0:17:49.356 --> 0:17:52.076 we were distracted by some other stuff going on. And 0:17:52.996 --> 0:17:55.276 so I called down the radio and I said, you know, 0:17:55.276 --> 0:17:59.836 it's all clear, there's nobody in here. So my firefighter 0:17:59.836 --> 0:18:03.236 and I were at one end of the hall and 0:18:03.636 --> 0:18:07.516 I just like kind of was churning my head, and 0:18:07.596 --> 0:18:11.716 I looked down the hallway and here comes to firefighters 0:18:11.756 --> 0:18:17.196 like awkwardly carrying a man who's just you know, completely 0:18:17.236 --> 0:18:22.596 ashen and limp. And it's like everything went into slow 0:18:22.636 --> 0:18:29.076 motion for me, like I just fucked up so bad, 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:32.356 Like this guy's been in here and I couldn't find him. 0:18:33.676 --> 0:18:37.636 And they carried him down the stairs and put him 0:18:37.636 --> 0:18:39.476 in the amulance and the amilts took him away, and 0:18:39.636 --> 0:18:41.716 you know, he's dead. He'd been dead for a while. 0:18:44.796 --> 0:18:46.676 And then I and then I went on like the 0:18:46.716 --> 0:18:50.316 rest of the night, like nothing had really happened, and 0:18:50.396 --> 0:18:52.156 you know, just finished with other stuff that we had 0:18:52.156 --> 0:18:53.916 to do and other work we had to do, and 0:18:54.196 --> 0:18:56.636 went back to our station, took showers, and went on 0:18:56.676 --> 0:18:59.876 with it. So yeah, So I came home the next 0:18:59.956 --> 0:19:03.716 day and I started talking about this call like incessantly, 0:19:03.756 --> 0:19:05.916 and I didn't really realize that I was doing that, 0:19:05.996 --> 0:19:08.636 but Lisa, my wife, said, you know, you've been on 0:19:08.716 --> 0:19:12.436 way calls a thousand times, but you never talked about 0:19:12.476 --> 0:19:16.516 him like this one. And I think what I was 0:19:16.756 --> 0:19:21.236 doing was I was trying to somehow, you know, rationalize 0:19:21.276 --> 0:19:24.116 what happened by like talking about it over and over, 0:19:24.276 --> 0:19:26.876 maybe something would come through where I would rationalize it. 0:19:26.876 --> 0:19:30.636 And I just couldn't do that on this call. I 0:19:30.676 --> 0:19:34.596 was sure that on this call, there was something that 0:19:34.756 --> 0:19:37.356 I could have done to make it different, to make 0:19:37.436 --> 0:19:41.196 the outcome different, to you know, that that guy would 0:19:41.196 --> 0:19:43.196 have lived if I had just done this, or if 0:19:43.196 --> 0:19:44.756 I had just done that, or if I just found 0:19:44.836 --> 0:19:47.596 him sooner, or if I just got on scene sooner. 0:19:48.396 --> 0:19:50.556 And you know, we kind of we call that magical 0:19:50.596 --> 0:19:54.196 thinking that there was something I could do to change it. 0:19:54.716 --> 0:19:57.276 And when you look back and you know all the 0:19:57.316 --> 0:19:59.276 facts are said and done, it's like there's nothing I 0:19:59.316 --> 0:20:02.836 could have done. He was passed away, you know, before 0:20:02.876 --> 0:20:06.516 anybody got on scene. I think magical thinking is such 0:20:06.516 --> 0:20:10.876 an understandable response. I mean, in cognitive science, there is 0:20:10.916 --> 0:20:13.556 a concept called the illusion of control, which is the 0:20:13.596 --> 0:20:16.596 idea that that's the same thing. Yeah, yeah, we think 0:20:16.676 --> 0:20:19.396 we have more control over outcomes than we actually do. 0:20:19.516 --> 0:20:22.596 And in this context, Christie, that makes so much sense 0:20:22.596 --> 0:20:26.756 to me, because in order for you to keep working 0:20:26.756 --> 0:20:29.836 on the front lines in such dangerous settings, it is 0:20:29.876 --> 0:20:32.236 important to feel that you are in control and you 0:20:32.276 --> 0:20:34.396 are making a difference. And so when good things happen, 0:20:34.436 --> 0:20:36.476 you want to take full ownership of the good thing happening. 0:20:36.876 --> 0:20:38.956 But of course, the flip side to that is when 0:20:38.956 --> 0:20:42.556 things don't go well, even when it's due to factors 0:20:43.276 --> 0:20:45.716 entirely out of your control, as very well made in 0:20:45.716 --> 0:20:47.836 the case for this gentleman that was in the building, 0:20:47.876 --> 0:20:53.916 still you're equally likely to put responsibility on yourself, right 0:20:53.996 --> 0:20:57.716 in this case, to blame yourself absolutely. And that's something 0:20:57.756 --> 0:21:01.116 that first responders, like all of us do because that's 0:21:01.156 --> 0:21:03.636 who we are as we're rescuers, and if we don't 0:21:03.636 --> 0:21:06.796 rescue somebody, then we do something wrong and we're not 0:21:06.836 --> 0:21:10.196 a rescuer anymore, and then we're basically a failure. And 0:21:10.676 --> 0:21:14.516 so I started noticing something was going on with me. 0:21:15.876 --> 0:21:21.036 I was angry, I was irritable. I stopped sleeping, you know, 0:21:21.316 --> 0:21:23.116 when the tones would go off for a call, and 0:21:23.156 --> 0:21:26.596 it didn't matter what kind of call, my anxiety would 0:21:26.636 --> 0:21:31.596 just it just the physiological response to getting a call, 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:35.436 even if it was for something totally minor, was the 0:21:35.476 --> 0:21:37.716 same as if you know, they had said there's some 0:21:38.036 --> 0:21:40.316 huge school shooting and you're going to be first in, 0:21:40.396 --> 0:21:44.476 and it was the same exact response. And then another 0:21:44.516 --> 0:21:48.556 big thing that would start happening to me is it's 0:21:48.596 --> 0:21:52.076 a like a videotape, like would play on a loop 0:21:52.116 --> 0:21:55.556 of calls that I've been on, like in the last 0:21:55.716 --> 0:21:57.836 you know, twenty five years, over my whole career, and 0:21:58.356 --> 0:22:01.996 calls that I never even you've really thought of in 0:22:02.036 --> 0:22:05.076 the years and years and years, Like I had a 0:22:05.076 --> 0:22:08.276 call involving a water delivery truck and it had ran 0:22:08.356 --> 0:22:11.596 over a professor or on the campus, and so we 0:22:11.596 --> 0:22:14.556 were scrambling to get the truck lifted. So we could 0:22:14.596 --> 0:22:16.436 get the guy out, and by the time we got 0:22:16.516 --> 0:22:19.796 him out, he was dead. So every time I'd see 0:22:19.836 --> 0:22:25.196 this certain water delivery truck, like this videotape would start 0:22:25.276 --> 0:22:28.156 playing in my head and it would start off, you know, 0:22:28.236 --> 0:22:32.756 with two with obviously that water truck call, and then 0:22:33.116 --> 0:22:35.116 you know, I had a call where there's a husband 0:22:35.156 --> 0:22:37.196 and a wife were rejected out of a car after 0:22:37.276 --> 0:22:38.956 they hit a tree, and I was the only medic 0:22:38.996 --> 0:22:41.476 on scene. And then it would go to the call 0:22:41.556 --> 0:22:44.276 with all those kids in that fire, and then when 0:22:44.316 --> 0:22:46.396 to go to this other gruesome call, and it and 0:22:46.516 --> 0:22:48.756 another call and another call, and it just played in 0:22:48.756 --> 0:22:50.476 the sloop in my head and it got to the 0:22:50.476 --> 0:22:54.836 point where I couldn't turn it off, and um, you know, 0:22:54.836 --> 0:22:56.836 like for example, I was I was playing tennis with 0:22:56.916 --> 0:22:59.956 my wife one time and and she stops and walks 0:22:59.956 --> 0:23:02.476 to the net and says, where are you? And I said, 0:23:02.516 --> 0:23:05.996 I'm I'm in Berkeley trying to extricate this kid out 0:23:05.996 --> 0:23:08.676