1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: That was one of the most surprising things to me 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: that I learned. What was that that enslaved people escaped 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: and were running and assimilated into the Seminole tribes. That no, no, no, 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: will you tell me about it? Thing? 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 2: No? 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 3: Okay, talk about a big myth, honey, Okay, let me 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 3: tell you. 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're into the war years of the 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: Seminole leader Osceola. This is part two of our series. 10 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: In the first part we talked about Osiola's childhood, but 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: now we're talking about how him and his people, both 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: in the swamps of Florida, were masters of guerrilla warfare, 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: stretching the American army then for over forty years during 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: the Seminole Wars, as America tried to bribe, trick, kill, 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: and capture the Indians to get them out of Florida. 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: We're searching for the true legacy of Osceola, an important 17 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: figure in American history, and I really doubt that you're 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: going to want to miss this one. 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 3: They also knew because they had been told by their 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 3: medicine people, and some of those people were called wal It, 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 3: which means a seer, was that there was an end 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 3: to Florida and that they would be pushed all the 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,279 Speaker 3: way to that end and they could go no farther 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 3: because there was nothing beyond there but water. They knew it, 25 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 3: and that's what happened, and that's what happened. The good 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 3: news is they're still here today. 27 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Knukem, and this is the Bear 28 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 29 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 30 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: story of Americans. 31 00:01:59,200 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 4: Who lived there. 32 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: Life lives close to the land presented by f HF gear, 33 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear as designed 34 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the places we explore. 35 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 5: There's all these stories that we grew up hearing of 36 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 5: when we were in battle. Well, first of all, I 37 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 5: grew up with this idea that the Seminal Nation was 38 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,119 Speaker 5: the only we were the only people that didn't get 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 5: defeated by the US government. And it was the first 40 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 5: time that the US government ever had gorilla warfare used against them. 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 5: These are the stories I heard growing up. 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: This is Sterling Harjoe. He's a Creek Seminole living in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 43 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: He's a famous filmmaker too. You guys know who he is. 44 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 5: I mean, that's pretty bad when you're growing up as 45 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 5: a kid and you're like, oh, yeah, you know, because, 46 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 5: like I mean, I grew up just like y'all were 47 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 5: not that far apart, and the differences. My grandma was 48 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 5: seminal and told stories about babies being killed on the 49 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 5: trail of tears, and you know, on the other side 50 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 5: of my family, my grandma's white. But to grow up 51 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 5: with that knowledge of like there was people that I'm 52 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 5: supposed that I have to stand up every day and 53 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 5: salute the flag and say the you know, the pledge 54 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 5: of allegiance, which I did proudly, but also knowing that 55 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 5: part of your ancestors were in direct defiance of that 56 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 5: same flag for survival and to save our culture and 57 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 5: to also protect me. 58 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting when people find themselves living 59 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: in conflicted places. I think it helps keep us humble 60 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: when we realize how rare black and white answers actually are, 61 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: and to put this whole thing into cond text. In 62 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: eighteen fourteen, the US annex twenty three million acres extending 63 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: from Georgia to Mississippi, which was Indian land, and it 64 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: scattered them like balls on a pool table. Many of 65 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: the Creeks and some other tribes were pushed into the 66 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: Spanish territory of Florida, and this assortment of Indians would 67 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: become the Seminoles, a name derived from the Spanish word cimarron, 68 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: meaning wild, untamed, or runaways. Sterling's ancestors would walk from 69 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: Florida to Oklahoma in the wake of Andrew Jackson's eighteen 70 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: thirty Indian Removal Act. 71 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 4: However, some of his tribe. 72 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: In defiance of the United States government, stayed in Florida. 73 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: Perhaps the biggest gift and curse of living conflicted is 74 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: the feverish self reflection. It kind of sounds like an 75 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: internal war. Here's doctor Patricia Wickman getting us up to 76 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: date on Osceola. 77 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 4: You'd better pay attention. 78 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 3: We know by eighteen eleven Cumpsa had come, as I said, 79 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 3: and by eighteen fourteen the world of the Mushkogi people 80 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 3: in the lower Southeast was so fragmented because of the 81 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 3: Creek War of eighteen thirteen fourteen that people were moving everywhere. 82 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 3: There's going to be another war here in Florida, the 83 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 3: beginning of a series of three wars here in Florida. 84 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 3: In eighteen seventeen that will occupy essentially the entire first 85 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 3: half of the nineteenth century, and they were reported day 86 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: by day, by night by day in every newspaper across 87 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 3: the country. There were reports from the troops, there were 88 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: reports from the soldiers, and it wasn't until much late, 89 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: until eighteen thirty five, that Ostiola began to rise to prominence. 90 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 3: But in the meantime he was surrounded. He was growing 91 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 3: up in warfare. War. 92 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: For those of us who've not been to war, assumption 93 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: of how it affects a human is a mere intellectual exercise, 94 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: and war on your land, as in the case of Ostiola, 95 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: is very different than inflicting war on someone else's land. 96 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: Ostiola would gain national and even global fame in his 97 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: short life. It's really interesting to me how we pick 98 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: our heroes. Doctor Wickman is from Tallahassee, Florida, and she's 99 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: a national expert on Ostiola, having written a heavy hitting 100 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: book called Ostiola's Legacy. She was the senior historian for 101 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: the State of Florida and the former director of Anthropology 102 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: and Genealogy for the Seminole Tribe of Florida. She has 103 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: some serious credentials and She's a wonderful and kind woman. 104 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: When she talks, you listen to understand Osceola, you acknowledge 105 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: his entire life was dominated by war, which also means 106 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: death and hiding and running away and fear and disease 107 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,559 Speaker 1: and hunger. I bring up this word fear not because 108 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: we saw this as external evidence in Osceola's life, but 109 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: it just had to be there. He was a human. 110 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: Fear of losing land and culture and family, fear of moving. 111 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: This fear had to have fueled this indomitable resistance that 112 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: we see in the Seminole people. It made them fight 113 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: for their lives. As a timeline catch up, Ostiola was 114 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: born in Alabama in eighteen oh four. Fled the Creek 115 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: Wars with his mother and family to Florida in eighteen fourteen, 116 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: and what was known as the Seminole Wars started in 117 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: eighteen seventeen and lasted until eighteen fifty eight, over forty 118 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: years long, like two generations of people. A Spanish philosopher 119 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: once said only the dead have seen the end of war. 120 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: Osceola's war would end with his death in eighteen thirty 121 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: eight at the age of thirty four. Here's doctor Wickman 122 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: with a high level overview of the history of Florida 123 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: that preceded this war. This is very important, folks, and 124 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: might be on the bear Greece render quiz. 125 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: Florida had been Spanish dominated from fifteen sixty five until 126 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 3: seventeen sixty three. In seventeen sixty three, the Seven Years 127 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: War in Europe ended, and as a part of that, 128 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: the Spaniards had to leave Florida and leave it to 129 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 3: the British. So the Second Spanish occupation began in seventeen 130 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: eighty four, all right, And by this time the American 131 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: Revolution was was, you know, in not on in progress, 132 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: but the United States was coming into being, was in 133 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 3: its earliest years. And as a consequence, they knew they 134 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 3: were going to need Florida. It had too much coastline, 135 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 3: It was too easy for people for other countries to 136 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 3: get here. You needed the Atlantic Gulf current. You needed 137 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: the Gulf, all right. And as a consequence, even for 138 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: just for military protection, you needed the whole territory of Florida. 139 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: The Seminole Wars was America's attempt to de Indian Florida 140 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: by relocating the tribes to Oklahoma. In eighteen eighteen oh 141 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: Hickory himself. Andrew Jackson would kick off the First Seminole 142 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: War by illegally going into what was then Spanish Florida 143 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: to try to stamp out the Indian problem. In eighteen nineteen, 144 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: Florida would be given to the United States by Spain. 145 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: These wars were just battle after battle, too many to 146 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: talk about. Out of the US pursuing the Seminoles, pushing 147 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: them further and further into Florida. Ostiola would have been 148 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: a teenager during that first war, but likely would have 149 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: fought in eighteen twenty three. The consensus of history is 150 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: the Seminoles were bribed and intimidated into signing the Treaty 151 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: of Moultrie Creek, which seated twenty eight million acres of 152 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: land and allotted the tribe of four million acre reservation, 153 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: all sold for the big amount of two hundred and 154 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: twenty one thousand dollars that went to the Seminoles. That's 155 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: not even one cent per acre. So they were trying 156 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: to put the Seminoles on a reservation even back then, 157 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: but they wouldn't have it. Later, Andrew Jackson, as President 158 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: of the United States, passed through Congress the Indian Removal Act, 159 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: of eighteen thirty, which undid the Treaty of Moultrie Creek. 160 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: It erased, and the Seminoles sure couldn't take that. Here's 161 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: doctor Wickman describing the type of warfare that was seen 162 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: in these Seminole wars. 163 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 3: Every one of these warriors had the right to leave 164 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 3: if he thought the war was going badly, if he 165 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: thought the battle was going badly, because their method of 166 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 3: warfare was a to strike at night out during the day, 167 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: and to do what we would call hit and run. 168 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: They would throw flaming arrows, they would throw spears, They 169 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: would wait for the warriors to run out and kill them. 170 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 3: They would capture the women, some of the men they 171 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 3: captured to take back later on for a torture or 172 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 3: just to kill them later. And as a consequence, the 173 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 3: idea of a pitched battle with lines of troops facing 174 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 3: each other and firing at each other, and a pitched 175 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: battle as a part of a larger set piece of 176 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 3: a war, it just wasn't within their ken. It wasn't 177 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 3: something that they understood at all. And so all three 178 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: of those wars are going to be the Indians prosecuting 179 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 3: the war in their style, and the white people who 180 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 3: are inexorable, and you know that, and there are many 181 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 3: of them, as there were fleas on a poor animal. 182 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 3: They're going to be prosecuting the war their way. There 183 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 3: were more and more and more and more and more 184 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 3: and more of them. 185 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: The height of the Seminole wars, there might have only 186 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: been four or five thousand seminoles in Florida, is that correct? 187 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 3: Yes? I think probably at the highest point early in 188 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 3: the war there might have been five thousand. So yes. 189 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 3: And beside which, they knew these lands. As a matter 190 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: of fact, they had names for Florida. The each of 191 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: these speakers called Florida the Ichi bomen the nose of 192 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: the deer, and the Mushkogi speakers called it egonfushged, which 193 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 3: meant the sharp or pointed land. 194 00:12:58,880 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 6: Wow. 195 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: So they had a sense of the shape of Florida. 196 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, they did. 197 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: And they also had I guess it's not really that surprising, 198 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: but it's interesting, but. 199 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: They tunted it. They knew it. 200 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 3: They also knew because they had been told by their 201 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: medicine people, and some of those meds of people were 202 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 3: called wallet, which means a seer, someone who can see 203 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 3: the future. One of the things that they told the 204 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: people in Osceola's day was that there was an end 205 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 3: to Florida and that they would be pushed all the 206 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 3: way to that end, and they could go no farther 207 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 3: because there was nothing beyond there but water. They knew it, 208 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 3: and that's what happened, and that's what happened. The good 209 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 3: news is they're still here today. 210 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: It's no spoiler, but the end of this story is 211 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: that the Florida Seminoles never signed a treaty with the 212 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: United States were in search of Osceola's fingerprint on that resistance. 213 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: He was not a chief, but rather a war leader 214 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: who specialized in bad to the bone guerrilla warfare. Even 215 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: after decades of fighting American Indians, the US still waged 216 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: war in these formal European style formations. I want to 217 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: now read a description of a young Seminole warrior that 218 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: was written by a guy named Clay McCauley, an early 219 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: visitor to the Seminole nation. He wrote, Physically, both men 220 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: and women are remarkable. The men as a rule, attract 221 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: attention by their height, fullness of symmetry of development, and 222 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: the regularity and agreeableness of their features in muscular power 223 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: and constitutional ability to endure. They excel. I noticed that 224 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: under a large forehead or deep set, bright black eyes, 225 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: small but expressive of inquiry and vigilance. The nose is 226 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: slightly aquiline and sensitively formed. 227 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 4: About the nostrils. 228 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: Lips are mobile, sinuous and not very full disclosing when 229 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: they smile, beautiful regular teeth, and the whole face is 230 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: expressive of the man's sense of having extraordinary ability to 231 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: endure and to achieve. We may pronounce the Seminole men 232 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: handsome and exceptionally powerful. I always find these old descriptions 233 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: really interesting. Here's doctor Wickman with the summary of things 234 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: going on in Osceola's early adult life from eighteen eighteen 235 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: to eighteen thirty five. 236 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 3: That period between eighteen seventeen and eighteen thirty five, which 237 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 3: will be the opening the summer of eighteen thirty five, 238 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 3: will be the opening of the Second Seminole War. This 239 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 3: is a period when Osceola went through his right of 240 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 3: passage into manhood, when he was definitely calling ballgames, When 241 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 3: he and his mother and his sisters moved down the 242 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 3: peninsula of Florida and possible into what's called the cove 243 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 3: of the with Lacuchi the with Lacuchi river makes a 244 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 3: bend that's almost like a horseshoe, and the land that's 245 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: in that horseshoe is called the cove of the with 246 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 3: Lacucci and it's where Osciola had his camp during the war, 247 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: and it took a long time for the soldiers to 248 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: figure that out and get in there. It's also undoubtedly 249 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 3: a time when he took a partner. As a matter 250 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: of fact, we know for a fact that you took 251 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 3: it these two women at one time, because that was 252 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: not unusual. Having several sisters or sorrow ratee polygyny it's called, 253 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: was a standard, particularly in an instance where there were 254 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 3: more women than men. 255 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: Osciola was described by many in writing. There were no 256 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: TV cameras, but this period is characterized by detailed written 257 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: descriptions of people as well as paintings, and the writing 258 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: would describe their looks but also their demeanor. People were 259 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: so desperately wanting to know who these people were. The 260 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: head of the Office of Indian Affairs, Thomas McKinney wrote 261 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: about Ostiola, saying the mind of Ostiola was active rather 262 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: than strong. 263 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 4: And his conduct that of a cunning. 264 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: And ambitious man who was determined by his own exertions. 265 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: His habits were active in enterprising, and to quote John 266 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: Sprague said, he was about five feet eight inches high, 267 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: with a manly, frank and open countenance. End of quote. 268 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: Ostiola was rather small in stature. But his most striking characteristic, 269 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: it seems, was his intelligence, his cunning, but also his ego. 270 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 1: He seemed to be quite interested in looking good for 271 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: some reason. It seems odd that an Indian leader should 272 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: have any kind of vanity, but why wouldn't that. They're humans, 273 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: just like the rest of us. You guys probably remember 274 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: the Creek seminole Jake Tiger over in Oklahoma. He's twenty 275 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: six years old and a descendant of Ostiola. 276 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 4: Here's Jake. 277 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 7: So this is where history kind of gets befuddled a 278 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 7: little bit. So you only have different historians that referred 279 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 7: to Ocil as a chief. 280 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 6: He was never a chief. 281 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 7: They had chiefs at the time, but a lot of 282 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 7: them were kind of, how should I say, not as 283 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 7: aggressive as him working against removal. And so even though 284 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 7: he was not a chief, he was a warrior, but 285 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 7: he was a high ranking warrior, so it was kind 286 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 7: of like, you know, like a general in the army, 287 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 7: and his ideas were more aligned with what the seminar 288 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 7: people than some of the chiefs had in mind. You know, 289 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 7: his ideologies that had kind of resonated to everybody else 290 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 7: since they followed him. Because his narrative, which was not 291 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 7: to be removed from traditional lands we had always been at, 292 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 7: and so that was his whole struggle, was resisting removal 293 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 7: because he knew that removal meant not only decimated our population, 294 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 7: but also would have been a tragedy on our culture 295 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 7: as well. 296 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: It's difficult to understand Osciola's authority in modern military terms. 297 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: He wasn't a hereditary chief, but a war leader, given 298 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: power simply by merit and being able to fight, gather, inspire, 299 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: and lead men. This isn't the perfect analogy, but I 300 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: recently described it kind of like Joe Rogan's influence versus 301 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: an actual elected politician. Rogan has a ton of influence, 302 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: often more than someone with official power, kind of like 303 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: Osceola had more power than a lot of hereditary chiefs. 304 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: It's basically leadership by merit and charisma, not title. 305 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 4: This was Osceola. 306 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: He gained this authority through guerrilla warfare in the swamps, 307 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: of Florida in the First Seminole War. But by the 308 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: time the Second War started around eighteen thirty five, he 309 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: was in his early thirties, hitting his prime. 310 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 4: Here's doctor Whickman. 311 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: We've now gone through the First Seminole War of eighteen 312 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 3: seventeen eighteen. We've got the burgeoning Second Seminole War that's 313 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: going to start in eighteen thirty five. All right, But 314 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 3: lot going on, a lot going on in an entire 315 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: the entire nation. What there was of the nation in 316 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 3: those days was watching. They were paying attention. Why did 317 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 3: Osceola catch their attention? This was a period when the 318 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,719 Speaker 3: nobility of war was a concept that was still in 319 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: common parlance, in common usage. I don't think that most 320 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 3: of us living today would put those two words together 321 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 3: in a phrase. There's nothing noble about war. Dead is dead. 322 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 3: But in those days, you know that in the American Revolution, 323 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,719 Speaker 3: during the time when the Marquis de Lafayette had French 324 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 3: troops here who were aiding the American columnists, he brought 325 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 3: with him a brace, a pair of large dogs. The 326 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 3: way they've been described to me, I think they sound 327 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 3: like Russian wolfhounds. He used to chew tobacco, and he's 328 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 3: with his tobacco on the dogs. And there was one 329 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 3: point in one battle when the dogs got away from 330 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 3: him and the soldiers. The American soldiers stopped the whole 331 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 3: entire battle and had a subalter and captured the dogs 332 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: and deliver them back to Lafayette. All right, this is 333 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: the nobility of war, almost like a game, Almost like 334 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 3: a game, except that life was cheaper than and people 335 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: still died. The American image of the Indians then and now, 336 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 3: and I can tell you experiences that proved to me 337 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 3: that this is still the image. Most of it has 338 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 3: to do with with John Wayne imaging. 339 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: All right. 340 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 3: People thought that the Indians were wild, they were free, 341 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 3: they rode across the prairies, or they fought like wild people. 342 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 3: They didn't have laws and taxes and all these other things, 343 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 3: and they had no idea what Indians really were. But 344 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 3: the image made them quote unquote noble savages. And that 345 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 3: one is repeated over and over and over and over. 346 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: Just for the record, the word savages in reference to 347 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: the American Indian is a no no word, similar to 348 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: other derogatory terms describing certain ethnicities. 349 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 4: It's common in our movies and our. 350 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: Literature, but it's like not something you would say despite 351 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: the perception. Just like the Americans, Indians were concerned with 352 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: family security, land legacy. They cried when family members died, 353 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: celebrated when they were born, struggled with insecurity, fear, and 354 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: being misunderstood. They had deep rooted culture and laws and morality. 355 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: There were good Indians, there were bad Indians, just like 356 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:40,959 Speaker 1: every other human. These people were humans. They were separated 357 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: from the Europeans by this perception of the use of 358 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: technology and culture, which was really not a real thing. 359 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: If there is one thing that humans have no excuse 360 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: for not learning by even by this time, is that 361 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: all humans have similar motivations and were basic all the same. 362 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: Around eighteen thirty four is when Osceola's name began to 363 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: be talked about in America. Here's Jake Tiger with more 364 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: details on probably the most famous story about Ostiola, and 365 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: we briefly discussed it in the last episode. Though the 366 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: details of this story are disputed, it really doesn't matter. 367 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: It impacted the nation. 368 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 7: Well, there's all these really great stories that we hear 369 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 7: of Osceola during the Seminal Wars. One that really resonates 370 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 7: with all of us, and it really kind of encapsulated 371 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 7: the seminal mindset back then, and it still resonates what 372 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 7: would most of us today, which is that famous story 373 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 7: at the treaty signing of Fort Gibson Treaty where oh 374 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 7: Still had walked up to the table and plunged his 375 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 7: knife into the treaty and told them this is how 376 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 7: I'll sign because he became so en rasia at all 377 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 7: these different chiefs that were suing their names alway, so. 378 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: There were multip chiefs there and they were signing signing 379 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: this treaty. 380 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 7: Yeah, yes, And he walks up to that table and 381 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 7: it pushed into his belt and then pulls out a 382 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 7: knife and insteads of a treaty and looks at all 383 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 7: these army officials and tell them that it's it's it's 384 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 7: we're going to war now. And there's there's a really 385 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 7: good quote by by him that that was said to 386 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 7: uh General Clinch and in February of eighteen thirty four. 387 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 7: You know, I always looking back at a quote now, 388 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 7: like I said, that's those things that he says, it 389 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 7: really resonates with our our mindset of being what the 390 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 7: definitional term is as similar similaronies as being free people, 391 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 7: and that's what he really encapsulated. And so he says, 392 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 7: you have guns, and so have we. You have pattern 393 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 7: lead and so have we. You have men, and so 394 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 7: have we. You're a man will fight and solo ours 395 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 7: to last drop of similar blood has moisten the dust 396 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 7: of his Honting ground. That was said the General Clinch 397 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 7: in eighteen thirty four. 398 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: Everyone agrees that Ostiola was at that treaty signing and 399 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: that he had a knife. Doctor Whickman doesn't fully buy 400 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: that he stabbed it. She notes how a credible eye 401 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: witness said that Ossiola waved the knife around but never 402 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: stabbed the paper. However, she did say that the treaty 403 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: does have a hole in it. That sounds like pretty 404 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: good evidence to me. You can actually see that handwritten 405 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: treaty online. It's pretty wild to me that someone with 406 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: handwriting that bad could be responsible for such a huge 407 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: land transfer. Regardless, I'm standing with the Seminoles on this one. 408 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: Me Sterling and Jake know that Osciola stabbed that treaty. Regardless, 409 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter. This incident got Osciola's name into 410 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: the American public. Here's the second incident that put him 411 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: on the radar of the American public, and it involved 412 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: the basically assassination of a United States Indian agent named 413 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: Wylie Thompson. 414 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 3: So that one of the opening gambits had to do 415 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 3: with a man named Wiley Thompson who was an Indian 416 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 3: agent who had been sent down to Florida, and he 417 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 3: was stationed his home and office were at Fort King. 418 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 3: Fort King is now Okalla, Florida, and Wiley Thompson he 419 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 3: had tried to schmooze it's a Yiddish word, but it's 420 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 3: perfect here. He had tried to schmooze Asiola in order 421 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 3: to get him and his people to give up and 422 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 3: commit to going to the West. And it didn't work, 423 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 3: and they got into an argument, and Wilely Thompson, who 424 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 3: had a gigantic ego on his own, decided that he 425 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 3: had been insulted by Asiola, and he literally had Asciola 426 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 3: clapped in irons and put in what passed for a jail, 427 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 3: and that was the wrong thing to do to an Indian. 428 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 3: And he finally told Osciola that if Asciola would agree, oh, 429 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 3: he even gave him gifts. He gave him a silver 430 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 3: mounted rifle. But he finally said to Aziola, if you 431 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,719 Speaker 3: will promise me that you will agree to go to 432 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 3: the West, I'll let you out so that you can 433 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 3: go and call in all your people and you can 434 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 3: all go together. And Aziola promised him. And I don't 435 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 3: think that that promise meant a single thing to him. 436 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 3: All that mattered was he was a warrior who was 437 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 3: being held as a prisoner against his will and he 438 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 3: had no right. Wiley Thompson had no right to do that. 439 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 3: And so Ociola got out and within a couple of 440 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 3: months he waited for his moment, and the war council 441 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 3: knew this, and the war council let him go and 442 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 3: take revenge on Wiley Thompson. And Thompson had dinner one 443 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 3: after late one afternoon, and then he went outside around 444 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 3: the fort stockade to have a walk and he was killed, 445 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 3: and Aciola killed him. 446 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: Ostiola wasn't messing around Wiley Thompson was a US Indian agent, 447 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: not in the military. That's why him like cuffing up 448 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: Ostiola was so upsetting. It's hard to understand, but there 449 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: was no centralized Indian government, and people like Thompson would 450 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: develop relationships with Indian leaders and try to persuade them 451 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: to lead the people that they influenced. 452 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 4: Out of Florida. 453 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: So the Seminoles were this big tribe, but different leaders 454 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: had different influence over different groups of people in the tribe. 455 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: Ostola actually had many encounters and personal relationships with the 456 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: United States military officials too, But we also see that 457 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: he didn't do any favors to people just because they 458 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: were Indians. In that same year, eighteen thirty five, the 459 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: same year he killed Wiley Thompson, Ostiola assassinated Seminole chief 460 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: Charlie Amathela was planning to move. 461 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 4: His people to Oklahoma. 462 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: This guy was an assassin and he was also known 463 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: in battle to have a unique war cry that distinguished 464 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: him from other war leaders. Here's Jake Tiger with an 465 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: interesting story that continues to paint the picture of the 466 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: time period. 467 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 7: Yeah, because you know, I said Ostiola and to come fifth, 468 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 7: and they were They weren't just fighting for fighting because 469 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 7: it was fun, because they're fighting for a way of life. 470 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 7: These two we were so deeply rooted into their culture. 471 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 7: They knew if we were taken away from these lands. 472 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 7: It's kind of like they were ahead of their time. 473 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 7: They knew what was going to happen afterwards, you know, 474 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 7: this different assimilation of policies that were taking place, and 475 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 7: it's already happened to that time period. No, there's you know, 476 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 7: there's different people and tribal nations that have already assimilated. 477 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 7: Take David Moniac for example, he was the first Indian 478 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 7: graduate from West Point who was a Muskogee Creek, and 479 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 7: he fought for the US Army and he actually got killed 480 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 7: during similar wars in the Battle of Wahoo Swamp. He 481 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 7: was supposed to be a big thing for the United States, 482 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 7: but his first actual combat, he was the first one 483 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 7: killed on the battlefield fighting against the Seminoles. And so 484 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 7: it was all just because you know, those two different 485 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 7: cultures are clashing. That's why William Penn was given a 486 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 7: two row wamping belt. As those Northeastern American Indians, they 487 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 7: told William Penn in the seventeen hundreds, they present the 488 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 7: two or wamping belt, saying one person can't write in 489 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 7: two canoes. At the same time, he said, you'll go 490 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 7: on your path and we'll go on ours. But we 491 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 7: should never intersect. They should never collide. We should always 492 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 7: go on our own pass. 493 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: This story of this Muskogee Creek Indian graduating from West 494 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: Point Academy puts this time period into perspective. You could 495 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: falsely get the idea that the Indians and Americans were 496 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: just meeting each other for the first time, But this 497 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: Euro Indian conflict in America had been pulsating for almost 498 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: three hundred years. 499 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 4: This wasn't a new thing. 500 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: I now want to talk to doctor Wickman about one 501 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: of the most fascinating aspects of the Seminole Wars in Florida, 502 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: which is how enslaved people escaped into Florida and we're 503 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: grafted into the Seminole tribes who were staunchly anti slavery, 504 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: and the Seminoles made this big political statement about being 505 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: anti slavery. The first book that I read on Ostola 506 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: stated this is a fact, and so does the Osceola 507 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: Wikipedia page. But let's see what the doctor has to 508 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: say about this. I'm going to learn that you can't 509 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: believe everything that you read. We're jumping right in mid conversation. 510 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: That was one of the most surprising things to me 511 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: that I learned. What was that that enslaved people escaped 512 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: and were running and assimilated into the Seminole tribes, and 513 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: that became no, no, no, will you tell me about 514 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: a thing? 515 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 3: No, okay, talk about a big myth? Honey, Okay, right, 516 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 3: let me tell you. 517 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm all heirs, Doctor Wigman, please forgive me. Perhaps the 518 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: narrative is more complex than this little SoundBite that I 519 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: grabbed off the internet. But how could historians get this 520 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: so wrong? 521 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: Okay? 522 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 3: In this war, the white people who were prosecuting the war, 523 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 3: who were trying to push the Indians out, actually were 524 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 3: fighting two enemies. They were not only fighting the Indians, 525 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 3: they were also fighting black ex slaves who had either 526 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 3: been bought by the Seminole people or had escaped from 527 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 3: up north anywhere and had run down into Florida. This 528 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 3: had been going on while the Spaniards, called the First 529 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: Spanish Occupation was in process. And there is even a 530 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 3: fort that was allowed them called Gracia Real de Santa 531 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 3: Teresa demos Today it's just called Fort mo And they 532 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 3: were on the north side of Saint Augustine in a 533 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 3: position where they could be there to be part of 534 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 3: the defenses of Spanish Saint Augustine. So by the time 535 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 3: we get around the period of the Seminole Wars, particularly 536 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 3: all the way to eighteen thirty five, when this had 537 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 3: been going on since the late sixteen hundreds. In the 538 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,320 Speaker 3: early seventeen hundreds in Florida, the blacks knew x slaves 539 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 3: knew that Florida was a good place to run to, 540 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 3: that it was outside offerrent country. 541 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: Well it was until to eighteen well. 542 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 3: Until eighteen nineteen and eighteen twenty one. 543 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: So it was a destination if you could get to Florida, if. 544 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,439 Speaker 3: You could, and if you could, a lot of them 545 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 3: went to the Indians thinking that they would be protected 546 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 3: or that they could make common cause with the Indians. 547 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 3: What they didn't understand is that the Indians did not 548 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 3: see them automatically as friends, all right. But what the 549 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 3: Indians did, even though there were some Indians who had 550 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 3: actually had enough money to buy. 551 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: Slaves, would have been okay in their view of the world. Yes, 552 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: oh yeah, no problem with that. 553 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, not at all. 554 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, it becomes a major bone 555 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 3: of contention when, as I said earlier, when the American 556 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 3: army is trying to buy their cattle and their horses 557 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 3: and their pigs and their slaves, all right, in order 558 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 3: to push them out. They want to return slaves to 559 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 3: their owners, where the slaves obviously don't want to go. 560 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 3: What the Indians did with these groups of blacks who 561 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 3: congregated near them was they would give them a field 562 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 3: or a piece of property that was near them, and 563 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 3: they would let them plant, because these people had learned 564 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 3: agriculture right in American settings, and as a consequence, they 565 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 3: were more effective at growing foods than the Indians were 566 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 3: because the Indians were still essentially hunter gatherers. So essentially 567 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 3: the deal was that the blacks would give a set 568 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 3: portion of everything they grew to the Indians in the 569 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 3: Indian community, and they were allowed to live there. And 570 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,439 Speaker 3: when the Indians went to war, there were blacks who 571 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 3: wanted to go to war as well, and the Indians, 572 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 3: the War Council of the Indians, allowed some of them 573 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 3: to have the unit. 574 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: So it wasn't as clean cut as oho Enslave people 575 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 1: escaped got here and were assimilated in because that's the way. 576 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: That's the way it was portrayed, and some of the 577 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: reading I've done well, of course, it was would that 578 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: myth have been there, like abolitionists would have wanted that 579 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: myth why would we. 580 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 3: Want to think that it was convenient? 581 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: It made them enemies to the US, like these these seminoles, 582 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: these are bad people. They're they're harbor and our slaves, and. 583 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 3: Our slaves are bad people because they ran away. 584 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: Okay, So it was it was an impetus for war. 585 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: It was it was demonizing in America. We needed to 586 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,919 Speaker 1: demonize them so we'd have a way to dehumanize them 587 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: so we could kick them out of there. 588 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 3: That's right, absolutely, that makes sense. Now we are still 589 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,399 Speaker 3: to this day, and you know that because we are 590 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 3: still bigoted to this day, and we are still carrying 591 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 3: bigotries that are born out of nothing in the world 592 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 3: except guilt and fear. And as a consequence, we're always 593 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 3: afraid that the other, the cultural other, is going to 594 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 3: do to us what. 595 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 2: We've done to him. 596 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 3: And as a consequence, we think if we let down 597 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 3: our guard that it will be too late. We'll be 598 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 3: out of power and possibly out of life. It's a 599 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 3: very sad situation that we have to use fear as 600 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 3: a way of dealing with other human beings. So in 601 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 3: the Second Seminole War, there were units or contingents of 602 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 3: blacks who were allowed to fight under their ownly when 603 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 3: the Indians fought, when the Indians attacked right, and it 604 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:10,240 Speaker 3: was a big bone of contention between the United States government, 605 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 3: augmented by the United the power of the United States 606 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 3: military and the Indians. 607 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: Forgive me for interrupting. No, No Ostiola. Also, I'm trying to 608 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: think of why this myth persisted and why we liked 609 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: it so much. The northern abolitionists, it helped them. And 610 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm on this quest of why Ostiola has lived so 611 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: long in the American consciousness. If he was harboring slaves 612 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: and he was adamant that these people be protected, I 613 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: mean that was for their purposes, very beneficial to make 614 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: him a hero if he was anti slavery. But you're 615 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: telling me that he wouldn't have been. 616 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 6: No. 617 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 1: This is really confusing to some Americans. The Seminoles fighting 618 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: the American army beside black was an anti slavery statement, 619 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: making Astola an abolitionist hero. But to the Southern States 620 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: and Andrew Jackson, it was an impetus for war, making 621 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: him a villain, yet a noble one to be respected. 622 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: It really seems like people interpret things according to the 623 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: narrative in their own mind. But according to doctor Wickman, 624 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't that black and white, and it wasn't a 625 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: political statement at all. The joining of the blacks in 626 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: the seminoles was simply two groups of people with the 627 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: same enemy. It's interesting to me how such a small 628 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 1: difference in a narrative can make the meaning so different today. 629 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: The Wikipedia page on Ostiola says that he was fiercely 630 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: opposed to slavery, that he even had a black wife, 631 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: which was a common belief but probably isn't true. However, 632 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,280 Speaker 1: it really gets confusing because today these groups of blacks 633 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 1: who fought in Florida are called the Black Seminole. This 634 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: is a complex topic and we have not exhausted it 635 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: in this conversation, and I don't claim to know the 636 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: nuances of it completely, but we just got to keep moving. 637 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: We're continuing to examine why America loved Doceola even in 638 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: his lifetime, and oddly America like the idea of this 639 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: rebel fighting against an unbeatable system that's undeniable. Remember, America 640 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: kind of had done this same thing about fifty years prior, 641 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: in seventeen seventy six. Maybe we saw ourselves in this 642 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: seminole leader here's Sterling Harjoe on Rebels. 643 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 6: Right. No, but I mean also, you know we love 644 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 6: book bank robbers. 645 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean people that stand against the system. 646 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean Clyte, Bonny and Clyde. You know, they 647 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 5: have captured the I mean, if you watch that movie, 648 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 5: it was like one of the most popular movies that 649 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 5: came out, Like a Warren Baby driving around Robin Banks. 650 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, there's. 651 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 5: I'm not saying we should all roll Banks, but I'm 652 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,439 Speaker 5: just saying, like, as a kid, it's kind of cool 653 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 5: to go we thought to get something that was immovable. 654 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 6: Yeah. 655 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: Well, and man, that is exactly why Ostiola, even in 656 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: his life, was nationally famous. 657 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 6: Right. 658 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: He was fighting against the United States government, the whole 659 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: tribe was. He was just the one that the world 660 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,919 Speaker 1: kind of picked out of that group to highlight. And 661 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: people loved him. I mean, like Americans, who their country 662 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: is at war, they were toasting Ostiola, right, toasting Ostiola's life, 663 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,280 Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, we kind of love an outlaw. 664 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's crazy. 665 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 5: I mean I think that through history of popular culture, 666 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 5: we think of Native people as very different, you know, 667 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 5: like not we but like the America thinks of Native 668 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 5: people is very different. If I'm to go ask the 669 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 5: average guy, and I don't know Idaho. 670 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 6: Actually they might know Nias. But like you know what 671 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 6: I'm saying, Like you asked somebody in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania. 672 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:08,720 Speaker 6: There you go, yeah, and it's. 673 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: Like they got no culture up there. 674 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 6: So we're very We're viewed as very different, but we weren't. 675 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 4: We're humans, Pennsylvania. 676 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: I am very sorry for that cheap dig It was 677 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: just too convenient. I actually love Pennsylvania. I have an 678 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: aunt that lives there. Shout out to Aunt Karen and 679 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: Uncle Tony. But I think Sterling's point is well taken. 680 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Wickman lived on the Seminole Reservation in Florida for 681 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: over fifteen years. She thoroughly enjoyed her time there, and 682 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: I thought this was really interesting. What she's calling BC 683 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: is the big Cyprus reservation in the Everglades. 684 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 3: The first time I carried photographs, I know I'm getting 685 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 3: off the track here and I'm going to get back on. 686 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 3: I swear right soon. I would carry photographs out to them. 687 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 3: When I moved into Hollywood and James gave me an 688 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 3: office up in the Tribal office building, I would carry 689 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 3: photographs out to BC, because I knew that this picture 690 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,439 Speaker 3: was in taken in BC, but I didn't know where, 691 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 3: and I didn't know who, all right, And I would 692 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,320 Speaker 3: say to somebody, do you know who these people are? 693 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 3: They would never begin by telling me the names the people. 694 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 3: They would begin by telling me about the trees. They 695 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 3: would tell me that tree is right behind what's the 696 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 3: water tower now, or that tree was on the property 697 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 3: where they built the tribal office building, out here the 698 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 3: field office. 699 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,760 Speaker 2: Building, and way down the line. 700 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 3: In the discussion, i'd get them to get around to 701 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 3: who are the people in this picture? 702 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 1: Surely there's some insight into the way that they viewed 703 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: kind of the natural world. 704 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 3: Of course, that all of their sense of humor, all 705 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 3: of their sense of humor, has to do with the 706 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 3: visual world, the geography, the land around them. And if 707 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 3: they make jokes that include people, it's usually a story 708 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,320 Speaker 3: about a man who tripped over a log and nearly 709 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 3: shot himself one day hunting, or you know, somebody who 710 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,760 Speaker 3: fell in a river or something. But it starts out 711 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 3: with the land. It starts out because they live so 712 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 3: closely with the land, because they've spent centuries and centuries 713 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 3: and centuries and centuries and centuries, at. 714 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: Least their starting place. 715 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always, it's always. It's not just their starting place, 716 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 3: it's their matrix. 717 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 2: It's where they live. 718 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 4: You believe that's still today? 719 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, really, Oh honey, you better believe it now. 720 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,879 Speaker 3: I will tell you that it's at its strongest out 721 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 3: in BC, because BC is the only res that's not 722 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 3: terribly close to a white man's town. But BC is like, 723 00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 3: it's like the center of traditional life, and than that 724 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 3: is getting pushed. 725 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: That is interesting. And don't forget that there are today 726 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: two separate seminole nations, one in Florida and one in Oklahoma. 727 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: But let's get back to the war. We're building a 728 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: case for why America loved Alceola, but also why we 729 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:19,839 Speaker 1: killed him. 730 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,840 Speaker 3: So throughout the war, I said that a lot of 731 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 3: the problems had to do with the sickliness of trying 732 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 3: to fight in Florida in the summer. In particular, the 733 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 3: eighteen thirty five gamuts didn't work, And in eighteen thirty 734 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 3: six we're going to see Osceola move to the zenith 735 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,280 Speaker 3: of his power, and his power isn't going to last 736 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 3: very long. This is another interesting thing did the Americans 737 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 3: keep thinking that they're going to end this war. It 738 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 3: starts in late eighteen thirty five and it goes on 739 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 3: for seven years. Millions of dollars and thousands of troops 740 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 3: who come in to prosecute this war, and the Americans 741 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 3: never managed to end it. So Osceola is going to 742 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 3: have his role and his visibility over about eighteen months, 743 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,160 Speaker 3: and that's it. That's all he gets. It's highly possible 744 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,800 Speaker 3: that during the late eighteen thirty six or eighteen thirty 745 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,320 Speaker 3: early eighteen thirty seven, that he became ill with malaria, 746 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 3: because malaria was a problem. Dysentery was a terrible problem 747 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 3: for the white soldiers. There were a number of instances 748 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 3: down here when a regiment was so sickly, had so 749 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,919 Speaker 3: many men on sick call, that they couldn't go out 750 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 3: and fight. 751 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: You know, because they would have had to have drank 752 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:43,320 Speaker 1: the water. 753 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,840 Speaker 3: They would have drunk the water, they would have short rations. 754 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 3: They were living in the heat, and the bugs with mosquitos, 755 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 3: you know, with snakes. And so he's gaining publicity in 756 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 3: the papers. Every bad thing that happens, every strike, every 757 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 3: Indian and strike, every battle that doesn't go the way 758 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 3: it should. Osciola becomes the foil for every story. He's 759 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 3: seen here. He's seen at Tampa one day, and the 760 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 3: next day he's all the way over it at Fort Millon, 761 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 3: at Daytona Beach. 762 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: He kind of becomes larger than life to the American people. 763 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:22,720 Speaker 3: He does absolutely when he becomes the real tragic hero, 764 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 3: the noble savage. Is when we. 765 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 2: Get to late eighteen thirty. 766 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: Seven and Ociola's stance was we're not leaving, yes, I 767 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: mean that was if you could boil him down to 768 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: his message during this was. 769 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 3: The whole entire fight. This is what this man's life 770 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 3: was all about. This is our land, This is where 771 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,839 Speaker 3: our mothers gave birth to us. This is where our 772 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 3: we would say umbilical cords are buried. This is where 773 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 3: we are, This is who we are, and no white 774 00:47:54,719 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 3: men are going to push us out. There's an incredible 775 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 3: instance in the middle of the war where he actually 776 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 3: went into a camp to have a parley with General 777 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,320 Speaker 3: Harney and wound up spending the night in General Harney's 778 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 3: tent as his guest. 779 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:21,839 Speaker 6: Yeah. 780 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,880 Speaker 1: That was a different time of war, wasn't it. There 781 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: was some very very DearS were. 782 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 3: Well the whole entire point, as I discerned it is 783 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 3: that the Whites were absolutely positive that somehow they could 784 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 3: convince the Indians to just quit this fighting and go 785 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,279 Speaker 3: to the west, get out of our way. You'll be 786 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,719 Speaker 3: safer if you leave this land to us. And at 787 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 3: one point they even sent a party, a delegation all 788 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 3: the way out to Oklahoma to look at the land 789 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 3: that was being offered to them, and they signed a 790 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,919 Speaker 3: treaty of capitulation out there, this delegation that was sent 791 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 3: out there. What they didn't know was the delegation that 792 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 3: was sent out there had no right to make that 793 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 3: decision for everybody else. It wasn't up to them to 794 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,520 Speaker 3: sign about whether the whole tribe would go or not. 795 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 3: It just wasn't their business. So the Indians said, no, 796 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,440 Speaker 3: we didn't sign it, We're not going. 797 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 1: I think this goes back to the way that a 798 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,640 Speaker 1: Western mindset would have thought about land. Oh, of course 799 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't. And the way that the Seminoles all Indian 800 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 1: people would have thought about land would be vastly different. 801 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: All these people had been on this continent for maybe 802 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,800 Speaker 1: a generation, you know, maybe two. They viewed the land 803 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,120 Speaker 1: from like a utilitarian standpoint like, Oh, if there's better 804 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,399 Speaker 1: land over here, you'd go there. You'd take the best 805 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:51,960 Speaker 1: land you could. 806 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 3: You're headed in the right direction, and I will give 807 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 3: you points, Clay, you have understood some things. You're headed 808 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 3: in the right direction. In the case of land, they 809 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,839 Speaker 3: did not believe in the land ownership. They believed that 810 00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 3: the great spirit, the giver of breath dischag Michit, had 811 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,520 Speaker 3: put them on this land to take care of it, 812 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,279 Speaker 3: to use it, to get the good out of it. 813 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 3: But they didn't believe in owning it. Whereas the white 814 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:26,120 Speaker 3: people were ownership first, the Indians believed that they just 815 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 3: used the land, and they had to use it wisely. 816 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 2: They couldn't, They couldn't. 817 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: Just would that have endeared again? Ossiolas his mantra was, 818 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: we're not leaving. We can't go somewhere else. 819 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 3: What else did he have? What else did he have? 820 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 3: Wickman's first car Larry to Murphy's law is everything in 821 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,560 Speaker 3: life is just a matter of alternatives. If you live 822 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,280 Speaker 3: in the land, if your whole entire world is based 823 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,319 Speaker 3: in those woods, if your mother lived there, and your 824 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 3: plan lives there, and your ancestors died and their blood 825 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,719 Speaker 3: is in that land. Then you are a part of 826 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,799 Speaker 3: that land. You're attached to that land. It's more than 827 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,920 Speaker 3: your home, you know, it's like your mother. You're not 828 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 3: going to give that up and walk away from it. 829 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 3: And the white people never understood that if they cared, 830 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,160 Speaker 3: and the bottom line is that didn't really care. 831 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,480 Speaker 4: In our to Comess series, we talked about. 832 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:41,439 Speaker 1: How many American Indian origin stories, basically their religions were 833 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: often site specific and connected to geography. They were tied 834 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:50,319 Speaker 1: to specific pieces of land, mountains, rivers, and if you 835 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 1: remove them, its stripped away that power and their identity. 836 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,800 Speaker 1: Europeans did not have this kind of connection with the land. 837 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,280 Speaker 1: Now we're going to move forward and head into Ostiola's 838 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 1: downfall and the nature of his relationship with the American military. 839 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:14,800 Speaker 3: We're up to eighteen thirty seven. Asceola wanted to talk 840 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,919 Speaker 3: with General Jessop, who was in charge of troops east 841 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,719 Speaker 3: of the east of the Swanee River. General Jessop arranged 842 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,319 Speaker 3: with General Ernandez, who lived in Saint Augustine, whose ancestors 843 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 3: are still there today. I know them, that they were 844 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 3: going to meet. There was going to be a parley 845 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,279 Speaker 3: at Fort Payton, and Jessop sent out a piece of 846 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,840 Speaker 3: cloth that the piece of white cloth that the Indians 847 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 3: could tear up into pieces, and they were told to 848 00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,680 Speaker 3: make flags out of these and to come in with 849 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 3: these flags as a sign that they were coming in 850 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,600 Speaker 3: for the parlay, they were not coming to make war. 851 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:57,759 Speaker 3: And so in late October eighteen thirty seven, Aziola went 852 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,120 Speaker 3: in and he knew that they were never going to 853 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,640 Speaker 3: let him come out again. He knew this, and. 854 00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 1: He would have met with these leaders. It might it's 855 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,399 Speaker 1: a little confusing to me. Oh, he would have met 856 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: with these leaders before and had meetings with them and 857 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,040 Speaker 1: left and so like in today's warfare tactics, it would 858 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,439 Speaker 1: be like if you had a guy that was enemy 859 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,440 Speaker 1: number one, terrorists number one, and like he wouldn't come 860 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,480 Speaker 1: meet with the President of the United States face to 861 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,520 Speaker 1: face and talk and then go back to those people. 862 00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,560 Speaker 1: But this was a time of the Ay, different time 863 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:30,360 Speaker 1: of military. 864 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,759 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And they've been all over Florida together, they'd 865 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:34,959 Speaker 3: crossed paths. 866 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 2: In these Florida one. 867 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:40,200 Speaker 1: This wasn't unusual for Osceola to go meet with the 868 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:41,840 Speaker 1: general of the US military. 869 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,920 Speaker 3: Beside which the Americans were using war as a last resort. 870 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 3: But they resorted to it rather quickly, all right. The 871 00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,960 Speaker 3: Indians just didn't want to go, and they kept believing 872 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,520 Speaker 3: that if they showed the white people how strong they were, 873 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,719 Speaker 3: if they had a good battle, a good attack, if 874 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,240 Speaker 3: they could fight fast, they could convince the white people 875 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,560 Speaker 3: that they deserved to stay there, that this was their land, 876 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 3: and they could go in and talk, they could parley, 877 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:11,120 Speaker 3: and that they. 878 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,200 Speaker 2: Would be allowed to live here. Jessop was furious. 879 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:21,919 Speaker 3: Jessop was absolutely furious at Osiola because Aziola had said 880 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 3: to him on several occasions that he would turn himself in, 881 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,239 Speaker 3: that he would bring his people. Yes, yes, let me 882 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,319 Speaker 3: go out and gather my people and we'll all go 883 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:34,200 Speaker 3: over to Fortbrook and we'll await transport to the west. Well, no, 884 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,759 Speaker 3: he never did, and he wasn't going to. And if 885 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,880 Speaker 3: Jessop had an ounce of sense in his head or 886 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,560 Speaker 3: cared enough about the Indians to know who he was 887 00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,560 Speaker 3: talking to, he never would have believed that to begin with. 888 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 3: But Jessop finally said that he was sick and tired 889 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 3: of this and that he was absolutely not going to 890 00:54:53,800 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 3: talk any more. And Osceola is sad, he is ill, 891 00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:19,120 Speaker 3: he's been sick and he knew that if he was 892 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,440 Speaker 3: in the clutches of the white men, that he had 893 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:26,640 Speaker 3: done quote unquote some bad things to them and they 894 00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 3: would never let him out. But they had already arranged. 895 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,520 Speaker 3: General Hernandez gave a signal, and I understand from his 896 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,080 Speaker 3: family that the signal was that he lifted his hat, 897 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,640 Speaker 3: and when he did, the soldiers moved around the Indians 898 00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:50,600 Speaker 3: and captured them. 899 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,759 Speaker 1: And this was like a what we would call like 900 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,760 Speaker 1: a war crime today, like this was out of bounds. 901 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:56,680 Speaker 6: Is that right? 902 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,640 Speaker 3: It was considered the fact that they were being captured 903 00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 3: under a white flag of truce meant that they were 904 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:09,640 Speaker 3: quote unquote violating a flag of truth. This was not 905 00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,920 Speaker 3: something that an honorable soldier did. 906 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,920 Speaker 1: But they at this time, it's so deep into these wars, 907 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,840 Speaker 1: the United States military is just like, we're laying everything aside. 908 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:24,680 Speaker 1: We just got to get this guy, Jessop. 909 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:25,720 Speaker 2: It's Jessup. 910 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 3: It's not just the whole United States government, it's Jessup. 911 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,840 Speaker 3: And let me tell you that Jessup is going to 912 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,920 Speaker 3: pay for it for the rest of his natural life. 913 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,440 Speaker 1: Because America didn't like that they cheated Osiola. 914 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,560 Speaker 2: Despised him nationally. 915 00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:42,759 Speaker 4: So he this question. This word goes back. 916 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 1: They report that Jessup, under a white flag of troops 917 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,880 Speaker 1: captured Osciola Ossiola. Is this hero in America already. 918 00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,759 Speaker 3: The noble savage who has been seduced into coming in 919 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,759 Speaker 3: under a white flag of truth, and he has been 920 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:00,400 Speaker 3: captured in an absence. 921 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:04,440 Speaker 1: Resolutely dishonorable by dishonorable Americans. Didn't like that. 922 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:11,120 Speaker 3: The Americans despised it. Fifty years later, Jessop was still 923 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:15,360 Speaker 3: answering in the newspaper to articles that were being written 924 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 3: about him. 925 00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:26,280 Speaker 1: In late October eighteen thirty seven, the great Seminole War leader, 926 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:31,080 Speaker 1: who had only known war his entire life, was captured, 927 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:36,800 Speaker 1: and he would only survive three more months. After almost 928 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,120 Speaker 1: twenty years since the beginning of the Seminole War, in 929 00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,520 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty six, the first Seminoles were moved to Oklahoma, 930 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,720 Speaker 1: and by eighteen thirty nine most of the tribe had 931 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:53,720 Speaker 1: been relocated to Oklahoma. An eighteen forty two census stated 932 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:58,440 Speaker 1: that three thousand, six hundred and twelve Seminoles lived in Oklahoma, 933 00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:03,800 Speaker 1: in less than five hundred remained in Florida, and they 934 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,760 Speaker 1: never left. On the next episode, we'll learn about the 935 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:13,400 Speaker 1: bizarre circumstances of Ossiola's death, including how he lost his 936 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:18,480 Speaker 1: head in the nineteen sixty seven exhuming of his grave. 937 00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:28,080 Speaker 1: It's gonna get really wild. I can't thank you enough 938 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,959 Speaker 1: for listening to Bear Grease and Brent's This Country Life podcast. 939 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,840 Speaker 1: We're putting our heart and soul into this and you 940 00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:39,880 Speaker 1: guys listening and sharing this podcast means the world to old. 941 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 4: Brent and I. 942 00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,160 Speaker 1: Please leave us a review on iTunes and share our 943 00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,440 Speaker 1: podcast with a friend. This week, you know you can 944 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,920 Speaker 1: watch the Bear Grease Render on Meat Eater's new podcast 945 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:52,360 Speaker 1: channel on YouTube. 946 00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,200 Speaker 4: Until next time, keep the wild Places wild.