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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from House top

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com, the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really excited for this week. Kristen, in case

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Speaker 1: you didn't already know, we're talking about women in anthropology.

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Speaker 1: Where we are Yeah, oh no, what did you read?

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Speaker 1: I read Women at Anthropology Store. No, that's my autobiography,

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Speaker 1: which I really appreciate that you read. Well. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I love flowy skirts. Yeah, so I'll talk about women

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Speaker 1: in the social sciences and you just talk about my

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Speaker 1: killer wardrobe. Let's talk about going straight in the sales

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Speaker 1: section because I can't pay full price. True story. Um so, right,

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Speaker 1: today we want to offer you an introduction to my

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Speaker 1: wardrobe again just kidding, to fabulous women in Anthropology, which

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Speaker 1: does sound like a broad topic, but we're really going

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Speaker 1: to zero in on the development of feminist anthropology and

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Speaker 1: give you sort of a glimpse of some of the

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Speaker 1: names who have worked in the discipline, all leading up

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Speaker 1: to a fabulous episode on the fantastic Margaret Mead, which

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Speaker 1: will be next time. Yeah. So this is sort of

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Speaker 1: laying the groundwork for the more detailed biography of Mead,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully it will help make more sense about the

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Speaker 1: significance of what Margaret Meade was doing as well, and

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Speaker 1: kind of put her in the context of anthropology at large,

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Speaker 1: especially when and not to get ahead of ourselves, but

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Speaker 1: especially when you look at what an important figure Margaret

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Speaker 1: Mead was and how much she contributed. When you look

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Speaker 1: at it in the context of women in anthropology, the

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Speaker 1: big headline topic, you realize what an early pioneer she was.

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Speaker 1: And so now that we've gotten you all excited for

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Speaker 1: the next episode, let's do a brief introduction as to

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Speaker 1: what anthropology is. Because I was originally going to be

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Speaker 1: an anthropology major. Tell any more. Yes, Well, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I've made it clear on the podcast before that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be Indiana Jones. And if you're going

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Speaker 1: to be a swindling archaeologist, you have too major an

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Speaker 1: anthropology because archaeology is a sub type of anthropology. And

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed the introduction classes I really opened my eyes.

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Speaker 1: I was fascinated, and then I started to kind of think, like, um, well,

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Speaker 1: what jobs besides archaeologists do anthropologists get? And then I

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Speaker 1: read all this stuff about like well, you can study

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Speaker 1: populations and see how unhappy people are working in an

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Speaker 1: office or something, and I was like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go to print journalism. That seems much

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Speaker 1: more stable. And Caroline, I never wanted to be an

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Speaker 1: archaeologist or an anthropologist, honestly, but I did take an

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Speaker 1: anthropology course my first semester of college, and we learned

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Speaker 1: a lot about the Sheiks in the Middle East. And

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Speaker 1: the thing I remember the most, though, to be completely honest,

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Speaker 1: is my professor's tiny eyes and very large beard, and

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Speaker 1: his eyes were so small it was kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to follow his his eye contact because it was one

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Speaker 1: of those small classes where we were just around the

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Speaker 1: table and he was challenging to follow. But good grief,

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Speaker 1: did he love anthropology. And it was one of those

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Speaker 1: courses though where I saw it in the course catalog

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Speaker 1: thought it sounded interesting, really didn't know that much about

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Speaker 1: it at all, and ended up taking it. And so

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Speaker 1: it was fun to come back now so long ago,

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Speaker 1: I mean just kidding, I mean like two years ago

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Speaker 1: when I graduated to college. I'm so young, um, and

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Speaker 1: delve deeper into uh anthropology and also see how it

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Speaker 1: applies to what I'm doing now, because Caroline, I never

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Speaker 1: would have thought sitting in that class when I was

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Speaker 1: eighteen years old that I would you know four years

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Speaker 1: later beat talking about feminist anthropology on a podcast, right,

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Speaker 1: because podcasts didn't even exist back then. You're colliding. You

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Speaker 1: would have been predicting the future. It's true. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: not talk about the future. Let's talk about the past,

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Speaker 1: because that is a lot of what anthropology is all about. Anthropology,

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Speaker 1: to get technical about, it is the study of humans

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Speaker 1: past and present, but draws on the humanities and the social, biological,

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Speaker 1: and physical sciences. And there are four different flavors anthropologies, right,

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Speaker 1: four flavors. We've already mentioned archaeology, which of course is

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Speaker 1: the study of the past through material remains. But you

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Speaker 1: also have socio cultural which examined social patterns and practices

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Speaker 1: across cultures, with a special interest in how people live

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Speaker 1: in particular places and how they organize, govern and create

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Speaker 1: meaning in their culture. You also have biological anthropology, which

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Speaker 1: seeks to understand how humans adapt to diverse and ironments

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Speaker 1: and how biological and cultural processes work together to shape

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Speaker 1: growth and development and behavior. And finally, you have linguistic anthropology,

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Speaker 1: which is the study of the ways in which language

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Speaker 1: reflects and influences social life. And we're gonna talk briefly

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Speaker 1: about the origin of anthropology because it's important to know

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Speaker 1: how it formed, because then you start to understand why

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Speaker 1: people would be interested in focusing on women in anthropology

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Speaker 1: and this other thing of feminist anthropology. So there are

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Speaker 1: a couple of anthropology buds named Thomas Hyland Ericsson and

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Speaker 1: Finn silver Nielsen who got together and they wrote a

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Speaker 1: book and they talked about how the basis of anthropology

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Speaker 1: has really been around as long as humans have been

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Speaker 1: nosy about what their neighbors have been up to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because what is anthropology. I mean, obviously there's more to it, Thannus,

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Speaker 1: but it is observing the world around you and how

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Speaker 1: it works together. And so yeah, the first cave woman

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Speaker 1: to gossip about a cave man, well that was anthropology,

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Speaker 1: or the first cave mean to gossip about a cave

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Speaker 1: woman indeed, or in whatever combination you prefer um. But

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Speaker 1: they point out that the origins really lie with explorers, travelers, historians,

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Speaker 1: and philosophers. And of course they point to the Greeks

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Speaker 1: because you really can't talk about any social science or

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Speaker 1: science in general types of ballads with the health of Greek. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, all of so many olives. Um. So they

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Speaker 1: point to the historian Herodotus, the philosopher Aristotle, and geographer Strabo.

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Speaker 1: So these are people who by virtue of what they're

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Speaker 1: interested in writing about, are observing their worlds. And they

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Speaker 1: also point to figures in the Muslim and Arab world

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Speaker 1: like historian Ibn Caldoon and explore Iban Btuda. But a

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Speaker 1: lot of people trace the modern disciplines origins too Eurocentric movements,

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Speaker 1: including colonization. So in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries you

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Speaker 1: have the Age of Discovery, so you have these Europeans

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Speaker 1: discovering all of these quote savages and quote primitive people's who,

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Speaker 1: and we start to be curious about those kinds of

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Speaker 1: cultures and then basically erasing them. And then in the

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Speaker 1: eighteenth century we have the Age of Reason, the Enlightenment,

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Speaker 1: where everyone else is still kind of considered a savage

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Speaker 1: or a passive other. But a lot of people say

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Speaker 1: that when it comes to modern anthropology as we think

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Speaker 1: of it today, that really didn't start to emerge until

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Speaker 1: the eighteen fifties, which is when we started to see

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Speaker 1: the first ethnographic museums established, particularly in German speaking areas,

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Speaker 1: because they had started to collect data on peasants and traditions.

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Speaker 1: And of course ethnography is just basically the scientific study

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Speaker 1: of people and cultures, so the basis of anthropol g Now,

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Speaker 1: others still say that modern anthropology didn't get jump started

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Speaker 1: until after World War One, especially with famed anthropologist Franz BoA's.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of when you pinpoint the beginning of anthropology, these

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Speaker 1: guys Ericsson and Nielsen point out that the way we

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Speaker 1: think of modern scientific anthropology today started off in the West,

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Speaker 1: and that's tends that tends to be what scholars point to. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and as this very white eurocentric view was developing,

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Speaker 1: women were seen as something off to the side, a

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Speaker 1: sort of a special interest group. Um. So when it

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Speaker 1: comes to gender, it is worth noting that British Victorian

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Speaker 1: social anthropologists did like to examine the relationships between the sexes,

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Speaker 1: and they were curious about how gender relations played a

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Speaker 1: role in evolutionary development. But interest in female roles began

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Speaker 1: to wane, and we're considered less important. Yeah, so the

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Speaker 1: female sphere, all of that stuff, women are in the home,

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Speaker 1: How could that possibly be important. We're just going to

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Speaker 1: keep them there, lock them away, and just focus on

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Speaker 1: what men do. And this also extends to the development

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Speaker 1: of the hunter gatherer model, with the idea that men

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Speaker 1: were doing all the important work going out and hunting,

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Speaker 1: and women were just just gathering. And I'd like to

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Speaker 1: do gathering shoes, just gather at all sorts of high

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Speaker 1: heels and handbags. Um, But we will revisit that and

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Speaker 1: how that model began to get a little more nuanced

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Speaker 1: when feminists came marching along in the nineties seventies, like

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Speaker 1: they do. But so Rebecca l Upton in the journal

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Speaker 1: Anthropology in January wrote a great source on the development

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Speaker 1: of feminist anthropology, and so she points out that nevertheless,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that there was some Victorian interest in

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Speaker 1: gender roles and all that stuff, in early anthropology, for

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Speaker 1: the most part, gender was often synonymous with kinship or family,

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Speaker 1: and a monograph, she writes, might include just a single

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Speaker 1: chapter on women or family issues. In other words, the

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Speaker 1: issue of quote unquote gender wasn't a thing gender like,

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Speaker 1: she says, It just means like it's another like terms

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Speaker 1: related to family and what women do on women time. Well,

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Speaker 1: and this is also pre Margaret Mead, whom as listeners

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Speaker 1: will learn a lot more about in the next episode,

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Speaker 1: she was the one who really helped break open this

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Speaker 1: very concept of gender roles. Yeah. Absolutely, and so therefore

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Speaker 1: in early anthropology we've got androcentrism, which is just you know,

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Speaker 1: male focus, because the people who were doing the studying

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Speaker 1: of other people were dudes. Dudes were doing the dude studying.

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Speaker 1: Dudes were paying attention to dude And as Upton goes

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Speaker 1: on to write, even though you do have these critical

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Speaker 1: contributions from people like Margaret Mead and Ruth Benedict, who

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Speaker 1: she worked alongside throughout her career, it wasn't until the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and eighties, with the rise of feminist anthropology,

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Speaker 1: that gender really starts to come more into focus. So

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Speaker 1: as this is happening, you start to see research encompassing

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Speaker 1: different viewpoints, this growing recognition that gender, yeah, is important

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Speaker 1: and shouldn't be ignored. And also too, this is really

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Speaker 1: interesting to think about the power difference between the researcher

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Speaker 1: and the subject and how that can play a role

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Speaker 1: in their anthropological portrayal. Rather than framing them as expert

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Speaker 1: and informant, you have to equal those playing fields as

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Speaker 1: well in a way. Yeah, and there was the realization

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Speaker 1: that religion, development, and language can all affect how a

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Speaker 1: culture views and understands gender. So when you leave out

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Speaker 1: half the population in your research or your analysis, you

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Speaker 1: don't really understand the full culture, do you. And so

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Speaker 1: Upton also points out that exclusively using the term man,

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Speaker 1: which can mean mankind, men or both, is ambiguous, and

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Speaker 1: you're gonna end up kind of picturing just dudes when

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Speaker 1: they talk about men and man, I just think of

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Speaker 1: a pile of ken dolls right there. But yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so basically who's doing the research matters. What you're researching

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Speaker 1: obviously matters, but the way that you talk about it

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Speaker 1: and the way that the subjects talk about themselves is

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Speaker 1: very important. And it was high time that people took

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Speaker 1: all of those different variables into account. So what is

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Speaker 1: feminist anthropology? What really happens when women are a part

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Speaker 1: of the center of the research rather than being in

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Speaker 1: this little special interest group off to the side. So,

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Speaker 1: as we mentioned, this really starts to happen in the seventies, eighties,

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Speaker 1: and nineties and anthropologists start challenging these notions that a

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Speaker 1: men's work and creation of goods is the only work

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Speaker 1: of value. I e. Like, it's important that they were

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Speaker 1: hunting and gathering. Who cares baskets of shoes be Women

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Speaker 1: are and always had been innate nurturers who were tied

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Speaker 1: to nature, which is really interesting to think about. And

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Speaker 1: then see that all women experience gender similarly. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so they start asking whether women's subordination was a quote

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Speaker 1: product of male observer bias and privilege and so Upton

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Speaker 1: rights that feminist anthropologists and those interested in the study

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Speaker 1: of gender began to challenge the simple AD women and

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Speaker 1: stir model of ethnography and sought to bring attention to

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Speaker 1: structural inequalities, the role of economic disparities, global dimensions to

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Speaker 1: gender politics, the role of language, etcetera, etcetera, how all

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Speaker 1: of this affects humanity, human rights and whatever. And that

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Speaker 1: whole note on ad women and stir was is and there.

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Speaker 1: This may or may not still exist. We need some

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Speaker 1: anthropologists to write in but a lot of times when

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Speaker 1: an anthropologist would write a paper or a book or whatever,

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Speaker 1: there would be a thing tacked onto the end it

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Speaker 1: says and does this research also apply to women? Yeah? Cool?

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Speaker 1: All right, keep keep at it, good job, And so

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Speaker 1: that was not exactly a comprehensive way to incorporate half

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Speaker 1: of a population um, because, after all, the study of

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Speaker 1: gender construction is not just the story of women. Women

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Speaker 1: are not the only gendered items in the world. The

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Speaker 1: story of gender is the story of both men and women.

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Speaker 1: And so part of this upswing in feminist anthropology is

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Speaker 1: the effort to overcome that idea that men are the normal,

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Speaker 1: the standard, and women are the gendered thing. And of

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Speaker 1: course this starts happening in tandem with the rise a

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Speaker 1: second way feminism in the West, because this is when

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Speaker 1: it becomes increasingly important to recognize differences not only the

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Speaker 1: between men and women, but also among women. And speaking

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Speaker 1: of feminism, feminist anthropology can also be broken down into

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Speaker 1: its own waves, which is a kind of funny side

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Speaker 1: note that we talked about feminist waves, and then that

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Speaker 1: makes me think of a period, you know, the Crimson waves.

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Speaker 1: All just very connected, isn't it, Carol. That's all feminist

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Speaker 1: anthropology is. That's what we're about to explain. Yes, it's

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Speaker 1: all about period, and yes menstruation and baskets of shoes.

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Speaker 1: You have to you have to weave the basket and

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Speaker 1: then gather the shoes to put in them. That's what

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to tell you. You would have made a

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Speaker 1: fabulous anthropologists by that, I like to think so I

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Speaker 1: would have taken your class. So when it comes to

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Speaker 1: these Crimson waves of feminists anthropology, we found a fantastic

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Speaker 1: source from the University of Alabama Department of Anthropology. Um,

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Speaker 1: the first wave really starts in a fifty and goes

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Speaker 1: to nineteen twenty and the main goal of the first

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Speaker 1: wave was to simply include women's voices in ethnography, which

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Speaker 1: again is just the scientific description of people's customs and

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Speaker 1: various cultures. Yeah, and so at this time, the info

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Speaker 1: that was out there about women, whether it was in

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Speaker 1: our culture or some other culture far across the sea,

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Speaker 1: was largely gathered, if you will, by male anthropologists talking

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Speaker 1: to male subjects. So it was men in the culture

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Speaker 1: talking to male anthropologist about what the women might be doing.

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Speaker 1: And I have a feeling that a lot of them

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Speaker 1: were like, uh, I don't know, it's fine. So they

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Speaker 1: were hunting and gathering, indeed, well gathering information. But that

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Speaker 1: just means all the more that we should emphasize some

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Speaker 1: of the names of women who were active during this period,

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Speaker 1: including the quite impressive L. C. Clues Parsons. She had

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Speaker 1: gotten a sociology PhD from Colombia eighteen ninety nine mine

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Speaker 1: when she then turned her attention to anthropology, and she

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Speaker 1: really got active as a social reformer who used those

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Speaker 1: ethnography skills to encourage people to think differently about their lives.

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Speaker 1: She ended up traveling with male anthropologists to the Southwest

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Speaker 1: and she really thought, because of her own experiences, that

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Speaker 1: those pesky restrictions on men and women working together were

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Speaker 1: pretty dumb. She ended up using her privileged position to

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Speaker 1: establish the Southwest Society, which helped support anthropologists like Ruth Benedict,

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Speaker 1: who will talk about the next episode, Women supporting Women.

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Speaker 1: I know she's fantastic. Then we have Alice Fletcher, who

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Speaker 1: was one of the first professional women anthropologists and also

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Speaker 1: one of the first women to have a paid professorship

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Speaker 1: at Harvard, and she really focused on American Indians and

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Speaker 1: sought to dispel the notion that they were wards of

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Speaker 1: the state. And this was a theme that I saw

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Speaker 1: among a lot of the early women anthropologists, at least

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Speaker 1: in the u US of the time. Not terribly surprising

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Speaker 1: that their focus, and this was with Roof Benedict as well.

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Speaker 1: A lot of their focus was among American Indians and

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Speaker 1: how their tribes worked, and also serving as liaisons between

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Speaker 1: them and the government to try to make things at

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Speaker 1: least a little bit more equitable, and paying attention to

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Speaker 1: the fact that, oh, they do have their own unique

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Speaker 1: cultures and customs and are not a monolith. Well yeah,

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Speaker 1: the idea that like, hey, these aren't just like simple

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Speaker 1: minded children. The way that it was so popular to

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Speaker 1: think of all of the different types of American Indians

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Speaker 1: on the continent. I mean, uh, here were women who

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Speaker 1: were actively working, including Alice Fletcher, to counteract some of

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Speaker 1: those perceptions that made it so much easier to inflict pain, suffering, racism,

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Speaker 1: stereotypes on these different cultures. And it's not surprising that

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Speaker 1: such a smart woman would also be committed to suffrage.

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Speaker 1: And she helped found the Association for the Advancement of Women.

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Speaker 1: And then we wanted to mention Phyllis Kberry. She was

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Speaker 1: a brit who pioneered research on men, women and their

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Speaker 1: relationships in addition to religion, and you know, she focused

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Speaker 1: on a bunch of other topics too. And her book

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Speaker 1: Women of the Grass Fields, which became sort of an

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Speaker 1: anthropology classic, focuses on women's work and rural development. So, oh,

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Speaker 1: my god, the concept of like women's work being something

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Speaker 1: that you would write a book about fascinating. So then

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Speaker 1: we move into the second way from nineteen twenty to

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, and this is where focus shifts more to

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Speaker 1: academia and we start to get into these concepts of

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Speaker 1: sex and gender as two separate, though interacting things, and

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Speaker 1: how the definition of gender differs from culture to culture.

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Speaker 1: And we also have some dichotomy busting going on in

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Speaker 1: this pretty broad period, right uh. Feminist anthropologists rejected the

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Speaker 1: notion that the male and female and work versus home

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Speaker 1: dichotomy's were the way of the world. They argued that, hey,

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Speaker 1: our social systems are dynamic, they're not static. It's not

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Speaker 1: all nature versus nurture, or public versus domestic, or production

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Speaker 1: versus reproduction. And part of what influenced these ideas was

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Speaker 1: Marxism and Marxist feminism. With the rise of this philosophy,

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Speaker 1: there was more focus on women reproduction and production in

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Speaker 1: addition to how gender relates to class power and the

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Speaker 1: modes of production, and they applied Marxist models to trying

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Speaker 1: to understand the subordination of women, which during this time

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Speaker 1: they consider to be basically equal across the board, equal opportunity,

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Speaker 1: subordination for all women, regardless of who you are, which

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Speaker 1: is not always going to be the case. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: of course, by the late seventies and early eighties and beyond,

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Speaker 1: some of these researchers were beginning to wise up. But

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Speaker 1: if we go back to Marxism specifically, there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of Marxist feminists at this time who were challenging

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Speaker 1: the notion that women's oppression is associated with something innate

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Speaker 1: or biological. Their point out that while sexual dimorphism is

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Speaker 1: indeed a biological feature, it doesn't mandate the oppression of women.

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Speaker 1: That's all a human creation, that women's biology is just

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Speaker 1: used to facilitate their oppression. And they also rejected the idea,

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Speaker 1: like we had talked about earlier, that women are somehow

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Speaker 1: closer to nature, because there's that whole idea of like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: men control property and they pass it down along Patrillennial lines,

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Speaker 1: they overturn the whole matrillineal society. And since men of

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Speaker 1: control over nature and women are close to nature, then

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Speaker 1: therefore air goo and yet again menstruation, moon cycles, crimson wave,

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Speaker 1: it all circles back around and listeners. For the record,

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Speaker 1: I am being sarcastic. I don't actually think that feminist

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Speaker 1: anthropology is all based on menstrual cycles. But moving on,

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Speaker 1: many did take issue around this time with this idea

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Speaker 1: of cultural feminism, which is really focused on validating traditionally

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Speaker 1: feminine attributes, saying like, listen, there's nothing wrong with being,

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Speaker 1: you know, femininity. That doesn't have to be some kind

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Speaker 1: of secondary status. It's fine, um. But on the other side,

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Speaker 1: we have these more Marxist feminists, hopefully I'm labeling that correctly, um,

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Speaker 1: who were arguing that cultural feminism ignores the oppressive powers

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Speaker 1: under which traditional values were created, so basically saying like, well,

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Speaker 1: all this femininity is kind of a construct anyway, Burn

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Speaker 1: it all to the ground. Yeah, sure, burning all to

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Speaker 1: the ground. But also during this time, which I this

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Speaker 1: is my own ignorance, I'm admitting it right here. In

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Speaker 1: the nine twenties, Zora el Hurston trained under Franz Boas

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Speaker 1: at Barnard, as did famed anthropologist Margaret Mead and Zorneil

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Speaker 1: Hirston was the only black student there and she was

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Speaker 1: the first to graduate from the school. And I always

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Speaker 1: thought of her as a writer, as an author, I

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Speaker 1: did not realize that she had an anthropological background. She

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Speaker 1: became the first African American person to chronicle fellow African

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Speaker 1: Americans folklore and voodoo, and she drew on those observations

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Speaker 1: to create her fiction, as well as being a pioneer

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Speaker 1: and developing theories about the African diaspora. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of this too related to her upbringing in Eatonville, Florida,

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Speaker 1: which was one of the first all black towns incorporated

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Speaker 1: in the United States. So just a fascinating tangent throughout this,

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Speaker 1: you know, this whole discipline. UM. But her, even though

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Speaker 1: she was a pioneer in developing theories about the African diaspora,

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Speaker 1: her name ends up being omitted because she didn't finish

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Speaker 1: her PhD. But also too because she was a black woman, right,

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Speaker 1: And those are issues that we will see crop back

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Speaker 1: up UM today all the time constantly. They don't really

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Speaker 1: crop up there, just there issues of UM. I was

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Speaker 1: going to say black women, but it's really women of

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Speaker 1: colors voices being sort of erased and not promoted in

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Speaker 1: the same way that some other people those voices are

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Speaker 1: promoted within the discipline. And some of the development of

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Speaker 1: feminist anthropology also involved almost redoing research, going back and

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Speaker 1: looking at places and cultures that people had studied in

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Speaker 1: the past and re examining them through this feminist lens.

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Speaker 1: So we have this example in the nineties seventies of

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Speaker 1: anthropologists a net Wiener revisiting the Trobriyan Islanders off the

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Speaker 1: coast of New Guinea to see if famed anthropologists brought

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Speaker 1: a saw. Malowski's research checked out because it was this

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Speaker 1: whole thing about yams. Oh my god, I love this

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Speaker 1: yams story. So basically, Malanowski had said that a gift

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Speaker 1: of yams from the men to their sister's husband's uh

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Speaker 1: meant that that was a consolidation of male power, was

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Speaker 1: an exchange between men. Here your yams. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: the yams. They're delicious, all right, a thank you note. Weener, however,

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Speaker 1: realized that it symbolized more than that. It actually symbolized

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Speaker 1: the high status of women within the culture. Why it

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Speaker 1: turns out Malanowski had completely discounted women's role in this

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Speaker 1: whole transaction and not surprisingly, and he failed to realize

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Speaker 1: that in return for the yams from his brother in law,

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Speaker 1: the husband had to reciprocate by giving his wife a

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Speaker 1: fancy banana leaf skirt, and the husband's potential promotion within

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Speaker 1: the tribe depended on him honoring his wife. Basically, you

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Speaker 1: were a deadbeat if you didn't thank your wife for

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Speaker 1: her brother's gift by giving her a banana skirt. Banana

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Speaker 1: leaf skirt, And even today husbands can respect their wives

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Speaker 1: by going to anthropology and buying them an overpriced banana

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Speaker 1: leaf skirt. Yet again, full circle. So that though, concludes

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Speaker 1: the second wave, and we're gonna get into the third wave,

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Speaker 1: which starts in the eighties, and it's still happening today

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Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. So

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Speaker 1: the third wave starts in the nineteen eighties. Shoulder pads

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Speaker 1: are jutting out, more women are entering the workplace, and

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Speaker 1: anthropology is moving away from focusing solely on gender imbalances

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Speaker 1: and incorporating issues of class, race, ethnicity, et cetera. It

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Speaker 1: sounds like, in other words, feminist anthropology, which we're focusing

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Speaker 1: on in this podcast episode, is getting a little more intersectional,

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Speaker 1: a little more intersectional for sure, there was also more

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Speaker 1: focused on the issue of power, and it was really

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Speaker 1: considered a big deal because power constructs and is constructed

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Speaker 1: by identity. And just as a side note, f y I,

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Speaker 1: as we get into the nineties, the average pH d

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Speaker 1: grad and anthropology was a forty year old woman, as

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Speaker 1: opposed to a hundred years ago when or a hundred

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Speaker 1: years before that, when the vast majority, not surprisingly of

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Speaker 1: doctorates were awarded to men under thirty. So changing face

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Speaker 1: of a discipline which I find interesting. But you know,

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Speaker 1: Kristen mentioned, we're getting a little intersectionality in our anthropology,

426
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: which is always good, and it really comes about thanks

427
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: to African American anthropologists pointing out the failings of early

428
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: anthropology beyond just the whole man woman thing, beyond just

429
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: omitting women or omitting the importance of gender. They start

430
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: asking why white middle class women are focusing so intensely

431
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: on gender at the expense of racism and unequal distribution

432
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: of wealth that lead to social inequalities. And oh and behold,

433
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: not all women experience gender the same. So, for instance,

434
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: a pair of anthropologist Nancy Shepherd Huge and Anna Singh

435
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: have emphasized that there's no universal definition for man or

436
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: woman across cultures and throughout history. And furthermore, anthropologists Leilah

437
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: Abu lu God has demonstrated that Bedouin women, for instance,

438
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: find advantages in a gender separated society. And oh, here's

439
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: a revolutionary concept. Western concepts and constructs don't apply everywhere. Yeah,

440
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: I mean so we mentioned at the top of the

441
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: podcast that the origins of the scientific discipline of anthropology

442
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: lie in Western cultures. Here were basically white men, not

443
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: that there's anything wrong with that, going into cultures close

444
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: to home or far away and reporting back on them,

445
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: and part of being an observer, that's almost an escapable.

446
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: You hope to avoid it, but it's projecting your own thoughts, feelings, morals,

447
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: ideas onto the people that you're observing. And so it's

448
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: you know, people have been raising their hands throughout this

449
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: whole time, just going um and excuse me. It might

450
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: be worth noting that you your perspective is not the

451
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: only one. Uh. And so that's a lot of what

452
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: comes out of this third wave of feminist anthropology. They

453
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: also emphasize that just like women don't experience gender the same,

454
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: they don't experience suffering an oppression the same. And if

455
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: we back up just a little, for instance, to nine. Technically,

456
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: in the second wave, activist and writer Audrey Lord had

457
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: penned an open letter to white feminist philosopher and theologian

458
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: Mary Daily, essentially saying like, I feel like you're celebrating

459
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: the differences between white women as a creative force words change,

460
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: rather than a reason for misunderstanding and separation. But you

461
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: fail to recognize that as women, those differences expose all

462
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: women to various forms and degrees of patriarchal oppression, some

463
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: of which we share, some of which we don't. And

464
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 1: she writes, the oppression of women knows no ethnic nor

465
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: racial boundaries. True, but that does not mean it is

466
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: identical within those boundaries. So you have a lot of

467
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: thinkers at this time, a lot of writers, a lot

468
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: of scholars finally being able to have their voices heard about. Listen,

469
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: there are different experiences, and we can't research other cultures

470
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: from one single perspective. And from this queer theory really

471
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: starts to develop, challenging heteronormativity the same way the early

472
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: feminist anthropologists challenge Andrew centrism. But of course there have

473
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: been concerns past and present about feminist anthropology. There's the

474
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: worry that it's tied too closely with feminism and is

475
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: therefore politicized or radical when it needs to be impartial. Basically,

476
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, it becomes very subjective rather than objective. Um.

477
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: And while there might be far more women in the

478
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: discipline now than they're used to be, those women are

479
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: still largely white. It's still not a terribly diverse group. Yeah.

480
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: Lynn Bowles, writing and Transforming Anthropology in argues that quote

481
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: these same feminist anthropologists have rendered black feminist and anthropology

482
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: almost invisible and on the same kind of token nicole

483
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: True Style of Beloit College says that despite studying race,

484
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: ethnicity and racism, Hello your anthropologists, she points out that

485
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: many and the discipline, male or female, are still reluctant

486
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: to have frank discussions about racism. People are very concerned

487
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: about like, well, well you look a certain way and

488
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: your background is a certain thing, so you should probably

489
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: just study this thing over there. She was writing about

490
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: how people were so confused when she was studying minority

491
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: populations in Britain because they were like, well, wait are

492
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: you are you British? She's like I'm an anthropologist. This

493
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: is what we do. We study other people, regardless of

494
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: where we're from. And there have also been efforts to

495
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: differentiate between the anthropology of women and feminist anthropology because

496
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: the two aren't necessarily synonymous. Yeah, back in surely, Ardner

497
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: wrote an Anthropology Today that she thinks the anthropology of

498
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: women denotes a field regardless of the methodology, while the latter,

499
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: feminist anthropology, implies a method of analysis or an approach

500
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: rather than a field. And it's interesting. You know, Ardner

501
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: herself didn't want to be pigeonholed as a feminist anthropologist.

502
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: She didn't want to be labeled, congratulated for it or

503
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: criticized for it. She just wanted to be an anthropologist.

504
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: But she does admit that the feminist movement inspiring feminist

505
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: anthropology also then in turn inspires the anthropology of women,

506
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: so it's all related. She said that once you get

507
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: more women readers and trained scholars, so you get more

508
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: women's butts in the seats in the anthropology classes, then

509
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: you get more of an audience for women's center research itself,

510
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: which makes the research more commercially viable. It makes those

511
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: women more likely or men who were studying women more

512
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: likely to get funding, and she talks about how this

513
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,239
Speaker 1: is also when you get women's studies developing as an

514
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: area of actual specialization, not something that's just like a

515
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: class you take as a one off. And so why

516
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: does she think that both feminist anthropology and the anthropology

517
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: women are important? She says, Listen, generalizations don't serve men

518
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: well either. She writes that the specific significance of being

519
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: a man in society also might get lost among those

520
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: loose generalizations about man or persons instead of talking about humans, people,

521
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: men and women, children, elderly, all of that stuff that

522
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: just as we want to understand more about, well, what's

523
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: the woman's experience in this culture, we should also seek

524
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: to understand the man's specific experience and not let either

525
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: of them get too muddied by just making these generalizations

526
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 1: about a culture. Right, And well, of course, there's absolutely

527
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with men studying women. It's the same thing

528
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: that we've talked about that you can apply to any

529
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: discipline where women are important in the conversation because they

530
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: bring in different perspectives, and diverse perspectives create probably more

531
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: accurate and nuanced viewpoint and it's going to help out everybody,

532
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: men and women alike. So whereas men might think of

533
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: women as other women might not. But again, of course,

534
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: othering depends on your culture, and we could go down

535
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of all the different everybody can other

536
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: somebody exactly. So what's going on today, Well, we talked

537
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: about the four different flavors of anthropology, capital a anthropology

538
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: and feminist anthropology falls under cultural anthropology, and it's not

539
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: just about gender today. Yeah, the focus is really broadened

540
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: to be beyond just like, well, hey, can we finally

541
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: like get some information on women. It's broadened to include

542
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: topics including childcare, reproductive rights, control of and access to resources,

543
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: and things like that, things that are not only women's interests,

544
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: as many people would lead you to believe, but are

545
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: actually human interests. And it's definitely helping bring increasingly diverse

546
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: voices and perspectives to anthropological research. And they're also organized.

547
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 1: I mean, you can be a member of the Association

548
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: for Feminist Anthropology, which is a branch of the American

549
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: Anthropological Association, and on their website they say that they

550
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: aim to foster the development of feminist analytic perspectives in

551
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: all mentions of anthropology, so you can be a fancy

552
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: professional anthropologist in a fancy society. And as for women

553
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: in anthropology, generally speaking, women receive seventy percent of those

554
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: undergrad degrees, which is a pretty significant jump from those

555
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: early days when we were just trying to get some

556
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: recognition in like basic ethnography. When it comes to PhD, also,

557
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: the majority, we're earning fifty five to sixty percent of those.

558
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: But this is interesting. It should actually be higher that

559
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: percentage if you take into account that fewer men are

560
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: enrolling in anthropology grad school, So it turns out that

561
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: fewer women proportionately are sticking it out in PhDs. So ladies,

562
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: we can dominate even more if we really want to.

563
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and so I I don't think I'm going

564
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: to run off and be an anthropologist beyond the type

565
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: of shops that ant apology. But I mean, I'm so

566
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: fascinated by this development of feminist anthropology. That makes total sense.

567
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't feminist anthropology develop alongside second way feminism when

568
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: you have people from all over the world, But in

569
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: this case, we're mainly talking about the West in America

570
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 1: raising their hands saying like hey, this whole eurocentric, androcentric

571
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: viewpoint you have going on is failing everyone because it's

572
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: not doing any justice to the people that were studying

573
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: and the cultures that we're trying to understand, and it's

574
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: really making for limited research. So we're really curious to

575
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: know if there are any anthropologists or anthropology students or

576
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: enthusiasts listening. We would love to hear your insights, because

577
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: we really just had a broad brush conversation on the

578
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: whole thing, and there's so many details within this that

579
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you about. And you

580
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: can do that by emailing us Mom Stuff at how

581
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: Stuffworks dot com, or you can mess just on Facebook

582
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. And we've got

583
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now.

584
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: So I've got a letter here from Pamela about our

585
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: Toplessness week. She writes, you asked listeners from outside the

586
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: US to respond to your latest episodes. I'm from the UK,

587
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: although I'm currently living in Belgium. Did you know that

588
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: until this year, the biggest selling daily newspaper, The Sun

589
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: in the UK, featured a topless woman on page three

590
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: every day, A full page photograph of a woman wearing

591
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: only her underpants as soon as you open up the

592
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: biggest selling newspaper in the country. The excellent no More

593
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: Page three campaign fought really hard to raise awareness of

594
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: how sexist and outdated this was, and now there isn't

595
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: a nearly naked woman on page three every day. Of course,

596
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: The Sun said this was nothing to do with Harry

597
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 1: Bottom feminist whining about it, and they still occasionally featured

598
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: topless women and frequently feature those dressed only in underwear.

599
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: One of the biggest misconceptions was the people who were

600
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: anti page three were anti boob prudes, but it was

601
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: and is all about context. Relaxing at the beach or

602
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: on top of your stoop topless might help to normalize

603
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: women's bodies, but putting them in a quote unquote family

604
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: newspaper in an effort to titilate does the opposite. If

605
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: you're not aware of the background to the No More

606
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: Page three campaign, check it out. It was founded by

607
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: Lucy Holmes and taken up by thousands of men and

608
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: women all over the country. So thanks for that insight, Pamela.

609
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Bessie. She says I've

610
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: been listening to your nipple episodes today and it maybe

611
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: want to share a short anecdote. I grew up in

612
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 1: a rough inner city school system and got more scare

613
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: tactics than information in my sex side classes. This mint

614
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: that when my older sister set my brother down for

615
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: a feminist strong arm talk, topics included male privilege, pregnancy,

616
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: scare dues, and don't et cetera. I listened in. When

617
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: she got to the biological stuff was super helpful. Everyone

618
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: should have a feminist older sister. I totally recommended. But

619
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: when it came to what you mentioned in your episode,

620
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: the idea that women just simply don't know what other

621
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: real breast look like because of all that shaming, self

622
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: initiated or otherwise, even my sister's feminist pep talk didn't help.

623
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: It wasn't until much later, when I was watching, of

624
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,959
Speaker 1: all things, an episode of Scrubs, that I finally found

625
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: out a particular aspect of my own breast, which I

626
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: had hitherto assumed was some hideous aberration, was totally normal.

627
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: The joke was a toss away sort of joke about

628
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: how the two male characters are so close, and I

629
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: can't remember how it actually went. All I remember is

630
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: that the CrOx was that Carlo's breasts had hairs growing

631
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: around the nipples that Turk had lovingly depicted as a

632
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: sort of breast flesh seal in a cartoon. I too

633
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: had hairs around my nipples, and this was the first time,

634
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: the absolute first time I had come across proof that

635
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: others did too. Thankfully, the tone of the joke was

636
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: in Carlo's favor. Turk is lovingly fond of the hairs

637
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: around her nipples, which made me feel comfortable with my

638
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: nipple hairs too. I'm super grateful for your show taking

639
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