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Speaker 1: Pope Leo the fourteenth has been formally installed at the

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Speaker 1: vatic and what do his first moves tell us about

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Speaker 1: his papacy and how to read him. Plus we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about those plummeting global birth rates all on this edition

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Speaker 1: of Prayerful Posse. Welcome to a Royal Grande series, The

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Speaker 1: Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters of faith and

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Speaker 1: its impact on culture. Let's convene the posse. Father Gerald Murray,

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Speaker 1: Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York, and Robert Royal,

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of the Catholic Thing dot org. I'm

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Speaker 1: Raymond Arroyo. Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Apple, Spotify or on YouTube at a Royal Grande

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Speaker 1: show so you don't miss an episode of the Posse Gens.

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Speaker 1: Pope Leo the fourteenth made it official this week as

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Speaker 1: he received the Pallium that is, of course, that round

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Speaker 1: woolen collar that represents his authority as Pope and the

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Speaker 1: Fisherman's ring with Saint Peter's image on it. This was

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Speaker 1: a very emotional moment. I mean, to my eyes you

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Speaker 1: could see Leo absorbing the enormity of this office and

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Speaker 1: the weight of it. Father, what did you make of

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Speaker 1: that moment? And put this in context for those who

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Speaker 1: might not be Catholic, I'll put up the footage of

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Speaker 1: the Pope before Mass descending into the tomb of Saint

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Speaker 1: Peter's what is this? What does this mean? And whose

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Speaker 1: office is he really assuming here?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Pope is a successor of Saint Peter, so

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Speaker 2: he is literally taking up that burden as he described

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Speaker 2: at the Cross and the mission that Christ gave to Peter,

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Speaker 2: and Peter was given the task to you know, shepherd

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Speaker 2: the flock, to confirm the brethren in the faith, and

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Speaker 2: then to bear his own crosses. So it is it's

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Speaker 2: a very weighty office. Aside from the you know, billion

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Speaker 2: plus Catholics in the world, you know, he's now answering

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Speaker 2: to God for.

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Speaker 3: The souls of all those people.

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Speaker 2: So I was very moved to see how much it

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Speaker 2: meant to him because he's assuming an office that no

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Speaker 2: man ever believed it would go to him. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: he never really thought it himself, and here he is.

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Speaker 2: It's divine providence at work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was something. It was incredible to watch. I

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Speaker 1: have to say, Bob, before I get into what the

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Speaker 1: pope said, And there's plenty to unpack, and we will.

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Speaker 1: That name Leo is a callback, if you will, to

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Speaker 1: Pope Leo the thirteenth, who was pope from eighteen seventy

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Speaker 1: nine to nineteen oh three. Why is the new pope

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Speaker 1: referencing Pope Leo the thirteenth And how does that landmark

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Speaker 1: in cycnical realum novarum factor into this, do you think.

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Speaker 4: Well, Realum novarum is often said to be the encyclical

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Speaker 4: that inaugurated modern Catholic social thought. In other words, it

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Speaker 4: faced the fact that there were secular states in the past.

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Speaker 4: Of course, there had been confessional states. It faced the

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Speaker 4: fact that there was now this industrial revolution, this urbanization,

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Speaker 4: people moving off the land. Mostly throughout most of history

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Speaker 4: most people lived on the land as agricultural workers. So

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Speaker 4: it was a whole new movement. And if you want

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Speaker 4: to kind of nutshell ge get an image of what

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Speaker 4: he was facing, you can read Charles Dickens, right. You know,

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Speaker 4: these people who are in cities and they're subject to

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Speaker 4: drunkenness and drugs and prostitution.

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Speaker 1: And all that.

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Speaker 4: He knew that there was something that knew that had

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Speaker 4: to be done. Because of the social situation now. Leo

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Speaker 4: I think reached back because I think he quite rightly

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Speaker 4: recognized us that we are in a new moment, that

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Speaker 4: even as good as ream Novarum was in its day,

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Speaker 4: we've got a much more difficult problem. And it's that,

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Speaker 4: you know, even just being on screens is another abstraction

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Speaker 4: takes people out of what they used to be in

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Speaker 4: the past, or the fact that we don't really have

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Speaker 4: communities or institutions that we trust very much. So my

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Speaker 4: guess would be, and it can only be a guest

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Speaker 4: at this point, that by taking on that name, what

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Speaker 4: he's signaling is we're in a new moment, just as

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Speaker 4: Leo was in that new moment at the end of

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Speaker 4: the nineteenth century, and we need to rethink the church's

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Speaker 4: teaching about how we live well in our own time.

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Speaker 1: Father. I know, Leo the thirteenth revived Thomism the teaching

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Speaker 1: of Saint Thomas Aquinas and applied much of that to

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Speaker 1: the modern age. What distinguishes that school of thought from

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Speaker 1: other theologies? I mean, for those who are not familiar

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Speaker 1: at all with Thomas Aquinas or Leo the thirteenth.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, he lived in a time in which the

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Speaker 2: Church was facing the challenge of rationalism and other forms

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Speaker 2: of relativism. We could say it had been since the

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Speaker 2: French Revolution and the associated thinkers there'd been a great

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Speaker 2: suspicion cast upon the ancient wisdom and the let's say

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Speaker 2: objective view of reality. It was much more subjectivism involved.

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Speaker 2: And then Obob can talk about this very eloquently. He

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Speaker 2: studied the question, but no Thomistic theology and philosophy, which

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Speaker 2: were based on Aristotle and the Holy Scriptures and the

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Speaker 2: natural law. They were an attempt to ground the church's

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Speaker 2: teaching in an eternal wisdom that the Church distilled from

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Speaker 2: revelation and the thinking of this brilliant saint. But I've

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Speaker 2: toss the Paul to Bob. He can really talk about this,

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Bob take over and talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: that Augustinian tradition of which Robert Pravos the new pope is.

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Speaker 1: I mean he led that community for many years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, father had basically right. The Thomistic tradition is a

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Speaker 4: more kind of rational tradition. In other words, it really

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Speaker 4: does kind of logical analyzes of different propositions. And after

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Speaker 4: Leo published his encyclicaled Tianny Patras. There was this tremendous

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Speaker 4: explosion within the Catholic Church, and actually outside the Catholic

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Speaker 4: churches of studying Thomas aquinas places like the University of

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Speaker 4: Chicago and Princeton and Harvard.

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Speaker 3: And other places as well.

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Speaker 4: Leo the fourteenth comes at these things from an Augustinian standpoint.

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Speaker 4: And if you've ever read Augustine's confessions, he's a very

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Speaker 4: passionate soul. He's a Platonist as opposed to an Aristotelian.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't so much give you rational analyzes in the

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Speaker 4: way that Thomas does, like these formulaic analyzes. But there

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Speaker 4: is a rational analysis, but it's based on a person,

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Speaker 4: a person who's striving to know God to live a

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Speaker 4: godly life. And I just wrote a column the other day.

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Speaker 3: As you did.

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Speaker 1: I saw it, I read it was great well.

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Speaker 4: Benedict the sixteenth used to quote this line from Augustine

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Speaker 4: o'daquo Ubis domine at Ubis cordevid. So give what you order, God,

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Speaker 4: and order whatever you wish. So there's Augustine struggling with

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Speaker 4: his sexual urges and his doubts and whatnot, and he

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Speaker 4: knows that only God can give him what he needs.

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Speaker 4: So we've got both of those traditions in the church,

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Speaker 4: and it's great that at this moment in history we've

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Speaker 4: got a pope I think, who understands both of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's trying to impart them in a new way.

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Speaker 1: I mean. In the homily, Pope Leo mentioned Saint Augustine,

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Speaker 1: who wrote, Lord, You've made us for yourselves, and our

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Speaker 1: heart is restless until we rest in you. And so

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Speaker 1: I love that. That was his opening of the homily.

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Speaker 1: The other day, Father. The other thing he said during

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Speaker 1: that homily, the cardinals came together. He said, to quote

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Speaker 1: elect the new successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome,

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Speaker 1: a shepherd capable of preserving the rich heritage of the

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Speaker 1: Christian faith and at the same time looking to the

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Speaker 1: future in order to confront the questions, concerns, and challenges

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Speaker 1: of today's world. I was chosen without any merit of

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Speaker 1: my own, and now with fear and trembling, I come

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Speaker 1: to you as a brother who desires to be the

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Speaker 1: servant of your faith and your joy, walking with you

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Speaker 1: on the path of God's love, for He wants us

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Speaker 1: to be united in one family, love and unity. These

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Speaker 1: are the two dimensions of the mission entrusted to Peter

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Speaker 1: by Jesus. Boy, is this a new era or what? Father?

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Speaker 1: And what are you making of that? Preserving the rich

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Speaker 1: heritage of the Christian faith and the titles he invoked.

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Speaker 2: No, it was beautiful when I heard that. I was

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Speaker 2: really moved because it summarizes the mission of the church.

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Speaker 2: You know, unity and love are united, and Saint Augustine

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Speaker 2: understood that. You know, the whole problem that he saw

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Speaker 2: with the original sin was that people had disordered loves,

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Speaker 2: that they loved the wrong thing, and it was onto

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Speaker 2: their destruction.

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Speaker 3: Whereas if you love.

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Speaker 2: God, then you find God. And in fact, I'm struck.

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Speaker 2: One of the things we learned in the seminary was

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Speaker 2: Augustine's line, Lord, I would not be searching for you

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Speaker 2: if I had not already found you, which for me

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Speaker 2: is the summary of human psychology when it comes to

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Speaker 2: eternal questions. We know there's something more to us, and

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Speaker 2: in a sense we've already found it, but we still

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Speaker 2: haven't found it enough. So for me, when the Pope

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Speaker 2: said let's look back at the tradition to confront modern problems,

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Speaker 2: he's rooting it precisely what Saint Augustine is saying, ordered, love, love,

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Speaker 2: God and neighbor, and then try to draw from it

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Speaker 2: solutions to cur questions.

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Speaker 1: Bob, the Pope called for unity in the church seven times.

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Speaker 1: He said, brothers and sisters, I would like that our

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Speaker 1: first great desire be for a united church, a sign

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Speaker 1: of unity and communion, which becomes eleven, for a reconciled world.

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Speaker 1: In this our time, we still see so much discord,

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Speaker 1: too many wounds caused by hatred, violence, prejudice, and fear

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Speaker 1: of difference, and an economic paradom that exploits the earth's

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Speaker 1: resources and marginalizes the poorest. For our part, we want

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Speaker 1: to be a small leaven of unity, communion and fraternity

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Speaker 1: within the world. We want to say to the world,

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Speaker 1: with humility and joy, look to Christ, come closer to Him.

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Speaker 1: What is he saying here, Bob? And how did the

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Speaker 1: last pope do you think shape this message?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know his papal motto is in ilo um

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Speaker 4: in that, in other words, in God we are one.

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Speaker 4: Because we're going to be diverse. I mean a church

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Speaker 4: is a unity, yes, a unity in love, but it's

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Speaker 4: going to be a unity in diversity, in legitimate diversity

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Speaker 4: of course, because they're going to be Augustinians, they're going

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Speaker 4: to be Dominicans, they're going to be Franciscans, they're going

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Speaker 4: to be lay people, they're going to be a consecrated virgin.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they are all sorts of different vocations in

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Speaker 4: the Catholic Church. The unity is in Christ himself, in

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Speaker 4: God himself, and in the tradition. I was like, I

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Speaker 4: was very happy that he talked about how looking back

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Speaker 4: in the tradition, because some people understand misunderstand what a

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Speaker 4: tradition is. By definition of tradition is to take something

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Speaker 4: and bring it forward, you know, take the truths there,

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Speaker 4: not leave them behind, but use those as we do

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Speaker 4: in our own lives, what's good in our previous life,

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Speaker 4: to grow further. So I think that's a tremendous statement

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Speaker 4: that he made. Pope Francis talked a lot about unity.

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Speaker 4: He seemed to deliver a lot of division and exacerbate

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Speaker 4: some of the divisions that already existed. We'll have to

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Speaker 4: see how this plays out with Leo the fourteenth, but

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Speaker 4: it's a darn good way to begin a papacy.

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Speaker 1: The father. There was a moment that made me sit up.

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Speaker 1: Here's the quote from the homily. Peter must shepherd the

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Speaker 1: flock without ever yielding to the temptation to be an autocrat,

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Speaker 1: lording it over those and trusted to him. On the contrary,

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Speaker 1: he's called to serve the faith of his brothers and

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Speaker 1: sisters and to walk alongside them, for all of us

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Speaker 1: are living stones, called through our baptism to build God's

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Speaker 1: house infraternal communion. And he goes on and on. What

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Speaker 1: did you make of that line there, father, about the

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Speaker 1: temptation to be an autocrat? It leapt out of me.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, it is the temptation because the pope in

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Speaker 2: reality is a monarch.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't answer to anyone except God. He's not dependent

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Speaker 2: on the people or judiciary, as in President the United

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Speaker 2: States has to answer to the Senate and courts. So

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Speaker 2: what I got from that was he realizes there's a

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Speaker 2: danger when you have supreme authority to use it in

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Speaker 2: a way that is unreflective and harmful. And the way

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Speaker 2: you get out of that dilemma is by consultation and listening.

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Speaker 3: And by all accounts, he listens. Well.

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Speaker 2: Now, listening just doesn't mean talking to the person next

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Speaker 2: to you. Listening means reading deeply in the tradition of

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Speaker 2: the Church, to understand what the most, you know, the

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Speaker 2: best and the brightest we could say of Christian history.

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Speaker 2: Have talked about questions that come up. You know, we

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Speaker 2: have a whole history of theology and reflection on the

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Speaker 2: very problems that are plaguing modern society. You know, Bob

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Speaker 2: referred to Saint Augustine. You want to talk about sexual

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Speaker 2: morality and ethics, reflect on him.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot to say about it.

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Speaker 2: And as regards economics, Saint Thomas wrote a lot about

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Speaker 2: the social order and the duties that we have each

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Speaker 2: in our roles in society. So, you know, walking together

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Speaker 2: as something Pop France has talked a lot about, but

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Speaker 2: unfortunately he often walked alone because he put people aside.

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Speaker 2: You know, he didn't want to talk, for instance, to

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Speaker 2: the cardinals who raised the Dubia. He didn't want to

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Speaker 2: talk to the Latin mass people. I think Pope francis

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Speaker 2: legacy of saying we have to walk together is going

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Speaker 2: to be lived in a new way by Pope Leo.

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Speaker 1: Bob Austin Ivory, who was Pope Francis's biographer. In Powell,

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Speaker 1: he took after me this week, because when I read

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Speaker 1: that excerpt from the homily, I said, in an apparent

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Speaker 1: reference to his predecessor, Pope Leo, said this about the

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Speaker 1: temptation to be an autocrat. Look, it's an open secret.

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Speaker 1: Many of the cardinals going into conclave told us on

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Speaker 1: the right, left and in the middle they thought Francis

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Speaker 1: was an autocrat the way he actually governed in the church.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's quite obvious.

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Speaker 4: I mean we've talked before about how he would appoint

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Speaker 4: cardinals just because he happened to meet somebody one day

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Speaker 4: and they're from Mongolia, there is kind of out of

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Speaker 4: the way in Australia or someplace. And it wasn't only

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Speaker 4: on those sort of capricious matters. I mean, there were

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Speaker 4: some very serious things that he did on his own

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Speaker 4: that in the past there would have been consultation with

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Speaker 4: Saint Nuncio's in particular countries or you know, experts within

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Speaker 4: the roaming courier who he would consult with and then

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Speaker 4: make the decisions about.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's an interesting fact about Lea that, hopefully of the

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Speaker 4: fourteenth that he wrote his dissertation at the Angelica about

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Speaker 4: obedience within Augustinianism. So even as a thirty year old,

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Speaker 4: I haven't read it. But Thomas Joseph White is the

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Speaker 4: rector of the Angelic, an American who's a friend and

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Speaker 4: a very very astute theologians, that he's read it. And

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Speaker 4: he was very very mature already at thirty years old.

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Speaker 4: So he was thinking about, you know, how much obedience

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Speaker 4: do we have to give to an authority? One does

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Speaker 4: an authority step over the line? All that I think

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Speaker 4: is to the good And we'll see how it actually

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Speaker 4: plays out practically, of course, But he's been thinking about

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Speaker 4: this for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Father the Pope had a meeting pop Leo with

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Speaker 1: sanchangmus Annius group and he said something interesting about doctrine.

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Speaker 1: Here's the quote. In the case of the church's social doctrine,

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Speaker 1: we need to make clear that the word doctrine has

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Speaker 1: another more positive meaning, without which dialogue itself would be meaningless. Doctrine,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, as a serious, serene and rigorous discourse,

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Speaker 1: aims to teach us primarily how to approach problems and

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Speaker 1: even more importantly, how to approach people. It also helps

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Speaker 1: us to make prudential judgments when confronted with challenges. Father,

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Speaker 1: tell me about this notion of doctrine and rigor.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, this is I love this response because one

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Speaker 2: of the in the ecumenical movement, which is supposed to

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Speaker 2: draw Christians closer together, there's a wing of thought which

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Speaker 2: says doctrines divide man from man. Therefore, doctrines are the

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Speaker 2: obstacle to unity. And the response to the Church has

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Speaker 2: always been Jesus Christ that I'm the Way, the Truth

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Speaker 2: and the life and the second. The truth refers specifically

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Speaker 2: to the doctrine he taught God himself speaking is the

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Speaker 2: one who instructs his people on what to believe, how

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Speaker 2: to live, how to treat their neighbors. So I thought

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Speaker 2: this was very refreshing, because, you know, sad to say,

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Speaker 2: in the last Pontificate, people who appealed to doctrine were

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Speaker 2: often criticized by Pope Francis as being obstructionists, backwardists, all

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Speaker 2: kinds of everthets where he rigorous for instance, Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: you say to yourself, you know, the word consistency is

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Speaker 2: something we love to apply to thinkers and speakers, But

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Speaker 2: consistency is the positive way of saying, well, somebody is

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Speaker 2: obstinate and what they talk about, Well, obstinacy is not

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Speaker 2: the question consistency and conveying the truth of Christ. That's

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Speaker 2: what I think Pope Leo's getting to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob. At the same time time, when he met

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Speaker 1: with inter religious leaders, he told them this just the

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Speaker 1: other day, cinidality and acumenism were closely linked. I wish

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Speaker 1: to assure you my intention to continue Pope Francis's commitment

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Speaker 1: to promoting the sonatyl character of the Catholic Church and

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Speaker 1: to develop new and concrete forms for an ever more

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Speaker 1: intense sinidality in the ecumenical field. End quote your reaction

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Speaker 1: to that, Some of the Brigolians out there are saying,

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Speaker 1: this is it. He's going to continue sinidality. Francis goes on, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean it could.

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Speaker 4: I'd be very surprised, giving everything else we've been talking

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Speaker 4: about and everything else we know. If that is the case,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's an interesting thing. Cardinal Marx, who's one

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Speaker 4: of the radical cardinals in Germany, was interviewed by a

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Speaker 4: German paper the other day and even he said, who

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Speaker 4: knows what cinidality means? And if there's going to probably

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Speaker 4: be some change in the way that we approached this.

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Speaker 4: It kind of petered out after those three years with

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Speaker 4: under Pope Francis. As we've talked about before, he set

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Speaker 4: this a crazy assembly for twenty twenty eight, which is

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Speaker 4: so far in the future you have to think, Wow,

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Speaker 4: you know, he doesn't really want to deal with this

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Speaker 4: right away, But I would not be surprised if he

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Speaker 4: begins to use that term in a different way and

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Speaker 4: to try to find something more substantial consistent. His father

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Speaker 4: rightly says, I don't like the fact that he's using

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Speaker 4: that term because I think it already carries with it

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Speaker 4: a lot of baggage. And I'm a little bit worried

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Speaker 4: about this ecumenical outreach that I mean, the previous papacy

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Speaker 4: sat again to say it kind of faded off almost

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Speaker 4: into near universalism, that all religions are paths to God.

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Speaker 4: But let's give him a chance. Let's see what he

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Speaker 4: does with it. I always think back to a book

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Speaker 4: of Jacques Marytian's called Distinguished to unite, we have clear distinctions.

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Speaker 4: It's actually better, you know, well, when we're kind of

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Speaker 4: groping around on the dark, we don't know what everybody's agitated.

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Speaker 4: They don't know what they're doing. When you have some

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Speaker 4: clear decisions that are made and concrete steps that you're

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Speaker 4: going to take, people feel a lot calmer and they

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Speaker 4: kind of know what to do next.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I would like to see some of that built into cinidality,

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Speaker 4: if we're going to retain that term.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, if cinidality means listening and talking to people, and

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Speaker 1: he's confining it to the ecumenical sphere talking to other faiths,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's a very radically different vision than Pope France

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Speaker 1: has had. But as you said, we'll have to wait

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Speaker 1: and see us. Secretary of State Marco Rubio met with

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Speaker 1: his Vatican counterpart, as did the Vice President this past

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Speaker 1: week and the new pope, and Rubio suggested that Ukrainian

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Speaker 1: and Russian officials might consider meeting at the Vatican to

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Speaker 1: negotiate a settlement. He said, I think it's a place

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Speaker 1: that both sides would be comfortable going. Now President Trump

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Speaker 1: apparently is communicating that those negotiations may go forward. Father,

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Speaker 1: Why is the Vatican the place, the idea deal place

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Speaker 1: maybe to have these negotiations.

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Speaker 2: Well, the Vatican and the Pope represent moral authority, and

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Speaker 2: it represents a true desire for peace on the part

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Speaker 2: of the shepherd of the flock. It's already been demonstrated

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Speaker 2: when Pope Francis died that at the funerals, Zolensky and

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Speaker 2: President Trump met. It was one of the most amazing

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Speaker 2: photos I've ever seen in my life. Two chairs brought together,

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Speaker 2: you know, near the baptistery in Saint Peter's Basilica. No,

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Speaker 2: I think the Vatican.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's a reminder too for believers, which you know also

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Speaker 2: affects non believers that those who believe in God think

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Speaker 2: they owe it to God to stop wars. It's atheists

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Speaker 2: who view war as just another tool in the toolbox

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Speaker 2: to accomplish their ends.

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Speaker 3: So I hope this works.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Bob, do you want to comment on that?

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Speaker 1: I heard JD. Van saying the Vatican represents soft power,

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Speaker 1: But it's much more than that, isn't.

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Speaker 4: Oh absolutely know. One of the problems, it seems to me,

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Speaker 4: is that the Russian Orthodox have had a brew under

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Speaker 4: the saddle about Catholicism for a long time, especially about

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Speaker 4: the Pope. But if you look around the world, where

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Speaker 4: is the place going to be where this negotiation can

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Speaker 4: take place? If you look at any particular country, it's

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Speaker 4: got its own history and its own relationship to America,

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Speaker 4: into Ukraine and too Russia, and so at the very least,

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Speaker 4: what we could say is that the Vatican is a

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Speaker 4: kind of a neutral corner and can maybe be a

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Speaker 4: neutral broker. This Pope has already taken a very different

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Speaker 4: stance toward Ukraine. He's very much more pro Ukrainian. Ukraine

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Speaker 4: obviously has been invaded by another country. So it'll be

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Speaker 4: interesting to see how this plays out. I'm still a

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Speaker 4: bit surprised that this has happened, But in those conversations,

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Speaker 4: maybe some things have gotten started. You've got a new person,

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Speaker 4: You've got a person who understands America because he is

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Speaker 4: an American, and maybe, just maybe that opens up enough

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Speaker 4: space that we can make some progress on this very difficult,

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Speaker 4: almost intractable war.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I think Pope Francis lost a little steam

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Speaker 1: just as a diplomat when you remember he called the

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Speaker 1: Russian patriarch, said he was Putin's altar boy. You know that,

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Speaker 1: I know, ticked off the Russians. So maybe with a

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Speaker 1: new man in the papacy, it changes the math a

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Speaker 1: bit more and brings down whatever hard feelings there were there.

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Speaker 1: There's a recent story in the USA today, shifting to

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Speaker 1: some cultural matters. Birth rates are close to in historic low.

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Speaker 1: Births have declined two percent a year from twenty fifteen

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Speaker 1: and twenty twenty. The United States is now below replacement

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Speaker 1: level at two point one children per woman. Father. I

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Speaker 1: see this as a lack of faith in the future

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Speaker 1: and even in oneself. What's the role of religion and

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Speaker 1: faith here?

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Speaker 2: Well, there are a lot of factors leading to this.

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Speaker 2: A couple of that I come right to mind the

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Speaker 2: user contraception number one. Number two marrying later. If you

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Speaker 2: marry at age twenty to twenty five, more likelihood you'll

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Speaker 2: have more children than if you married these thirty five

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Speaker 2: to forty. So I think that's a problem. You're right

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Speaker 2: about faith, lack of faith in the future. It's also

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Speaker 2: a downside of materialism, which was denounced so eloquently by John,

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Speaker 2: Paul Benedict and Francis. If people say I will have

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Speaker 2: children when I'm comfortable, You're never comfortable. You had to

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Speaker 2: have children and then make yourself come by working harder.

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Speaker 2: Now I'll shift to the man who has children, because

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Speaker 2: I'm the observer. He can give us the on the

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Speaker 2: ground both of you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'll definitely, I'll definitely vouch for that. There's

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Speaker 1: no good time, but when they come, it's the perfect time. Bob.

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Speaker 1: My favorite statistic in this piece, this USA Today piece

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Speaker 1: was among all two hundred and thirty six countries, the

433
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,479
Speaker 1: Central African Republic has the highest rate in the world

434
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: forty five point three five births per thousand people, and

435
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: the Vatican City State has the lowest four point two

436
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: one births per thousand people, which I think is an

437
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: important and probably good statistic, But Bob, this is a

438
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: huge impact for it has huge impacts on welfare programs

439
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: and the solidity of a country.

440
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and not only that, I mean, as

441
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 4: Elon Musk has said, if you have these low birth

442
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 4: rates in three generations, your country has basically done and

443
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 4: you can't replace your native population by bringing in people

444
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 4: from elsewhere. And look, this is a really difficult problem.

445
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 4: Everything that father mentioned is I think the crux because

446
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 4: it's a cultural and an ethical and spiritual problem more

447
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 4: than it is anything else. There are several countries that

448
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 4: have tried. For example, Hungary has been very aggressive and

449
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 4: trying to promote births, and so they provide lavish subsidies

450
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 4: to women who have children. I think after third or

451
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 4: fourth children, you don't pay income tax any longer for

452
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 4: the rest of your life. And it hasn't really worked.

453
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 4: It's helped a little bit, but it's not primarily an

454
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 4: economic problem. That's the kind of thing that you know,

455
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 4: our mainstream media and our think tanks, they all kind

456
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 4: of view things in political and economic terms. At bottom,

457
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 4: this is a human problem. It spiritual and a moral

458
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 4: and just a kind of a cultural sense of what

459
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 4: kind of people live with our children going into the future.

460
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: I mean, I look at my grandkids and I say,

461
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 4: you know, I have to redouble my efforts because God

462
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:37,239
Speaker 4: help us.

463
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 3: If we don't change.

464
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 4: Things, the world that they're going to live in is

465
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 4: even worse than the one that we're in.

466
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. But what it's important, I think Bob to sell

467
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: young people. I tell young men, and I'm looking at

468
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: my co collaborator here on so many of our efforts,

469
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: and he's a young man. He got married young, he's

470
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: having his first child. I tell everybody I know, have

471
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: your children, have them young. You will find your purpose

472
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: and God will reveal to you what your life is for.

473
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: I mean That's what to me, that's what childhood did.

474
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, having children did. It opened up

475
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: so many artistic vistas and parts of life that I

476
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: would never have that access to. So if you're young,

477
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: if you like that girl, if you love her, marry

478
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: her and have a bunch of kids. That would be

479
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: my advice. Another development. Father Robert Melhart. He is the

480
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: president of the Pontifical Institute of Safeguard Music at the Vatican.

481
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: He posted a video this week that went viral. This

482
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: is a little taste.

483
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 4: In nomen epothris at feedy het speedy too Songti.

484
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: In the name of the Father and of the Son

485
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: and of the hoodie spirit. Suddenly chant and Latin are

486
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: cool again. Father, what do you make of this? Teaching

487
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: people how to sing at masters with the Pope, who

488
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: I guess has brought Latin back.

489
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 2: Well, God bless the Pope for his beautiful Latin has

490
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 2: no doubt about it. I heard him, of course from

491
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 2: the low and these beautiful praying of Latin. No Latin

492
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 2: represents mystery.

493
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: You know.

494
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: It used to be the lingua franca of the Western world.

495
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: Then it became basically the language of the Church. It

496
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 2: is a mystery to people. But it's an attractive mystery

497
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: because they know that Latin chant is a union between

498
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 2: God and man, and it's an attempt to beautify words

499
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 2: that have a great resonance in and of themselves. So,

500
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: you know, we always try to underestimate the effect that

501
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: art has on people without them even knowing it. Yes,

502
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: and I think we have to remind ourselves. Just bringing

503
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: a kid into a museum and exposing him to opera

504
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: or Gregorian chant, it.

505
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 3: Opens up a vista. Life is not about.

506
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: Simply what I see in here on the everyday street.

507
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: There's more to life.

508
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, again, mystery. I don't know who said it.

509
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: It might have been Pope Leo in his previous incarnation

510
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: as Robert Pravos, but I think he said, we have

511
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: to temper spectacle with mystery. You know that that's it.

512
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: We have spectacle all around us, but mystery is lacking. Bob,

513
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: do you want to speak to that before we jump

514
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: out that.

515
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 4: Actually what he said. I think this was in twenty twelve. Yeah,

516
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 4: the church can't expect to use the tools of spectacle

517
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 4: to get to the depth and the mysteries that exist.

518
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 4: You know, in our tradition I mean, as his father

519
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 4: rightly says, I mean, it's these almost intangible things that

520
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 4: kind of enter into you unconsciously. Remember. I took my

521
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 4: oldest daughter one time, when she was about ten or eleven,

522
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 4: to the Brompton Oratory in London to a high Latin Mass,

523
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 4: and she walked out. She was a very musical and

524
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 4: artistic kid. And we walked out and she said to me, Dad,

525
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 4: was the mass like that all the time when you

526
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: were a kid. It just overwhelmed her. She had never

527
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,239
Speaker 4: seen anything like that, and she'd been going around ever

528
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 4: since she was a kid. So, yeah, this stuff, and

529
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 4: we you know, we're kind of detecting that the Pope

530
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 4: likes this, and he's trying to promote it, and I mean,

531
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 4: let's just hope it catches fire, because we desperately need

532
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 4: it in our Western liturgy.

533
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I also help that hope that sharp pilgrimage,

534
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: which is thousands of young people who go out and

535
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: then they have the Tridentine Mass at the Basilica at

536
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: the end of the of the route. Let's hope that

537
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: goes forward. There's apparently some liturgical rigmarole happening between the

538
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: Vatican and the organizers and the French bishops of that event. Father,

539
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: do you want to speak to that at all?

540
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: Well, you know it's tolerated by the Vatican when it

541
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: should be promoted. You know, this is really a sad thing.

542
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: I mean.

543
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: And what other organization when you have young, enthusiastic people

544
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: with children wanted to make a sacrificial walk over two days,

545
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: what organization would place restrictions on it to make it

546
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: more difficult. It's an organization that's lost its sense of

547
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: its purpose. So yeah, reality imposes itself. These people who

548
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: come to pray are not there as actors are paid.

549
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 2: They're there because they want to be there.

550
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 3: Right, I not make life difficult for them.

551
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to move on to something else, Bob.

552
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: This is a curious story. And with Pope Leo talking

553
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: about AI Catholic Answers, which is a group that for

554
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: decades has answered concerns about the faith, they recently launched

555
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: an AI priest online named Father Justin. I guess Father

556
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: Jerry was already taken. This didn't go well. Things went

557
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: sideways when Father Justin began to tell people I'm as

558
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: real as the faith we share, and then he claimed

559
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: to live in a cisi. He also told questioners that

560
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: they could baptize a baby in gatorade. Worse, Father Justin

561
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: heard someone's confession via x This is the text chain.

562
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: Catholic Answers has since defract Father Justin and, like so

563
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: many for Clergyman, he's now known as Justin the Theologian.

564
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: But I'm not kidding, Bob. I'm not sure we're ready

565
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: for this ai clergy, nor do we need it. Yeah.

566
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 4: I think Catholic Answers is a wonderful organization, and I

567
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 4: don't know why they decided to do this sort of thing.

568
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 4: I mean it kind of unfortunately reproduced the horrors that

569
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 4: you expect when a slightly heterodox priest starts you reading

570
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 4: crazy theology and the next thing you know, he's laid aside.

571
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 4: I'm surprised that this bot isn't married to another.

572
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: Father.

573
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: Your reaction, Yeah, well, I would say I need this

574
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: like I need a gaping head wound. I mean, this

575
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: is one of the worst things you could possibly do

576
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: is turn religion into a computer animated game in which

577
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: a priest is spouting nonsense. Now, I mean, we live

578
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: in this world with people dress up like cartoon characters

579
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: and expect us to think it's normal. Let's get back

580
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: to real people doing real things.

581
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: Agree. You know the tangible, that human contact. This is

582
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: why God, in his wisdom left a chain of men

583
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: to continue the faith, and why we have a new pope,

584
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: and why we have parents, because you need that human contact.

585
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: God came and incarnated in a human being so that

586
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: we could have that personal touch. I hate this AI

587
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: computer generated replacement in almost every aspect of life, but

588
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to moral guidance and you know,

589
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: life lessons that you need. Very dangerous territory. I'm glad

590
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,239
Speaker 1: they defract Father Justin and I hope we don't hear

591
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: from him again. Posse, thank you for being here. And

592
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: if you want more of the Arroyo Grande and who

593
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: doesn't subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or

594
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours on behalf of

595
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: Robert Royal and Father Gerald Murray. Until the Posse rides again,

596
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: Stay in the light. I'm r even Arroyo. We'll see

597
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: you next time. A Royal Grande is produced in partnership

598
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: with iHeart Podcasts and is available on the iHeartRadio Apple

599
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts,