WEBVTT - Presidents Have Tried To Censor the Media Before…and It Backfired 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:27.804 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 0:00:27.844 --> 0:00:31.124 better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova and I'm Nate Silver. 0:00:31.924 --> 0:00:33.884 Stay in the show. Have you been canceled ever? 0:00:34.204 --> 0:00:38.644 Maria, I have not been canceled. Have you ever been 0:00:38.684 --> 0:00:39.324 canceled night? 0:00:39.484 --> 0:00:40.364 Oh people have tried. 0:00:40.444 --> 0:00:43.004 If you listened to the last episode with elehone, you 0:00:43.044 --> 0:00:45.084 know you come at the King, you best not miss 0:00:45.524 --> 0:00:49.044 fucking blue Sky. Idiots on fucking Twitter and now they 0:00:49.084 --> 0:00:49.884 moved to Blue Sky. 0:00:51.164 --> 0:00:54.004 Yeah, well that's how you really feel, Nate about. 0:00:56.004 --> 0:00:59.244 No, it's a strategy of the week. 0:01:00.684 --> 0:01:03.404 No, No, it is and sometimes of the strong. 0:01:04.684 --> 0:01:06.804 Today in the show, we're going to be talking a 0:01:06.844 --> 0:01:10.324 little bit about Jimmy Kimmel. Maria, I think you're going 0:01:10.364 --> 0:01:13.044 to have some historical points of view. I'll just I'll 0:01:13.124 --> 0:01:14.164 just be rampting. 0:01:15.404 --> 0:01:17.204 Evidence. I'll just have takes. 0:01:18.844 --> 0:01:22.324 We will we will go into some historical context in 0:01:22.364 --> 0:01:25.684 a discussion of free speech and how it has evolved 0:01:25.924 --> 0:01:29.684 throughout the history of the United States. So on. On 0:01:29.724 --> 0:01:37.684 that note, Nate, let's let's talk some Jimmy Kimmel. Last week, 0:01:37.804 --> 0:01:42.124 Jimmy Kimmel's show was canceled indefinitely by the powers that 0:01:42.204 --> 0:01:48.844 be at Disney and ABC, and we are taping this 0:01:49.044 --> 0:01:52.884 on Monday, September twenty second. We just found out that 0:01:53.004 --> 0:01:56.564 Jimmy Kimmel Live Show is going to be returning. By 0:01:56.604 --> 0:01:58.564 the time you guys here this Wednesday will have been 0:01:58.804 --> 0:02:01.404 last night. But I do want to stress that we 0:02:01.524 --> 0:02:04.284 have not actually seen or heard the return yet. But yes, 0:02:04.444 --> 0:02:09.044 they just made an announcement that they will be bringing 0:02:09.524 --> 0:02:14.844 Me Kimmel back to the air after discussions with mister 0:02:14.924 --> 0:02:21.964 Kimmel about the future. And the original cancelation was very, 0:02:22.084 --> 0:02:25.804 very different from anything we've talked about on the show 0:02:26.164 --> 0:02:28.564 in terms of like cancel no, no, in some ways 0:02:28.564 --> 0:02:32.924 hold on, may I finish in terms of cancel culture 0:02:32.964 --> 0:02:36.524 because it was coming from Brendan Carr, the chairman of 0:02:36.564 --> 0:02:41.964 the FCC, who exerted pressure on the brass at Disney 0:02:42.044 --> 0:02:45.684 to cancel the show and made some very veiled but 0:02:45.764 --> 0:02:48.924 not that veiled threats that you know, we're probably going 0:02:49.004 --> 0:02:50.884 to pull your license. 0:02:51.404 --> 0:02:53.004 It was like, hey, we can do it's the easy 0:02:53.044 --> 0:02:55.564 way of the hodway. You sound exactly exactly. 0:02:55.644 --> 0:02:57.884 It sounded like we were back in the Sopranos, you know, 0:02:58.204 --> 0:03:04.164 or or you know Sopranos because a much worse written 0:03:04.244 --> 0:03:07.164 version of the Sopranos, someone who didn't actually know how 0:03:07.204 --> 0:03:09.204 to write and decided the easy way or the hard 0:03:09.204 --> 0:03:12.004 way was the way to write this dialogue. But yeah, 0:03:12.044 --> 0:03:14.844 so that's what happened. And that's why I said, that's 0:03:14.924 --> 0:03:17.644 a different from what we've been talking about, because there's 0:03:18.124 --> 0:03:20.244 you know, cancel culture, and then there's the chairman of 0:03:20.244 --> 0:03:23.444 the FCC saying, hey, if you can say anything we 0:03:23.524 --> 0:03:28.284 don't like, we're gonna yank your license. So in response, 0:03:28.324 --> 0:03:30.284 you know, there were tons of protests. There was a 0:03:30.324 --> 0:03:34.964 lot of people canceling their subscriptions to you know, Hulu, ABC, ESPN, 0:03:35.044 --> 0:03:37.924 all of these things. And Nate, I'm actually very curious. 0:03:38.244 --> 0:03:40.204 I do want to give some background to this in 0:03:40.244 --> 0:03:43.364 a second, but while we're setting kind of the present 0:03:43.444 --> 0:03:46.644 day context, I'm curious what you think the you know, 0:03:46.764 --> 0:03:50.244 financial impact of this was, because I actually I saw 0:03:50.284 --> 0:03:53.884 a lot of people canceling subscriptions that I wouldn't have expected, 0:03:53.924 --> 0:03:56.484 and I wonder, you know, I wonder if this is 0:03:56.924 --> 0:03:59.724 in any way a financial decision as well, whether that 0:03:59.884 --> 0:04:02.364 actually had an effect or not. I don't know. I 0:04:02.404 --> 0:04:05.204 want to think that it did, but I'm actually just 0:04:05.284 --> 0:04:08.484 curious what you what your take on that particular element is. 0:04:08.804 --> 0:04:10.884 Yeah, and I worked for Disney for ten years. 0:04:10.924 --> 0:04:14.404 I've ESPN and ABC News, so full disclosure, you know, 0:04:14.484 --> 0:04:18.164 I have you know, a pension which is a Disney stock. 0:04:18.484 --> 0:04:20.884 But I also hate their guts, so that bias probably 0:04:20.884 --> 0:04:25.524 outweighs my financial motivation. But like, look, these companies tend 0:04:25.524 --> 0:04:29.924 to make decisions very expediently. 0:04:29.564 --> 0:04:30.884 Is one way I would put it. 0:04:31.124 --> 0:04:35.204 Right, Maybe you have people who have vision about individual products, right, 0:04:35.244 --> 0:04:37.084 but like I think at the end of the day, 0:04:37.924 --> 0:04:42.404 Bob Eiger cares about theme parks and movies and big 0:04:42.404 --> 0:04:47.964 franchise IP right use gigantic projects and like and probably 0:04:48.004 --> 0:04:51.844 sees ABC News as this thing that like, you know, 0:04:52.284 --> 0:04:55.484 still I think probably makes money. I mean, TV news 0:04:55.724 --> 0:04:57.124 does not get the ratings at once to you, but 0:04:57.164 --> 0:05:00.644 it's not that expensive to produce as compared to like 0:05:00.684 --> 0:05:02.804 scripted drama or things like that. 0:05:03.164 --> 0:05:05.084 But like, increasingly these big. 0:05:04.924 --> 0:05:06.644 Networks have wondered, do we even want to be in 0:05:06.684 --> 0:05:09.284 the news business at all? Right, Like the head of 0:05:09.404 --> 0:05:12.844 Disney doesn't really care about like the creative or journalistic 0:05:12.844 --> 0:05:15.604 integrity accept to the extent that like you know, it 0:05:15.724 --> 0:05:19.644 might create problems for talent down the line. So yeah, look, 0:05:19.724 --> 0:05:22.524 the president I would draw is to the Washington. 0:05:22.204 --> 0:05:24.204 Post, which is all by Jeff Bezos. 0:05:24.404 --> 0:05:26.844 I'm a keen observer of media, particularly when it comes 0:05:26.844 --> 0:05:31.324 to covering American domestic politics. Right, I would say five 0:05:31.404 --> 0:05:34.004 or ten years ago and people would say, well, you know, 0:05:34.084 --> 0:05:37.124 the New York Times is the most presigious and highest 0:05:37.164 --> 0:05:41.324 grossing newspaper at least center left newspaper media brand in America. 0:05:41.644 --> 0:05:43.964 But the Washington Post is nipping at their heels. They 0:05:43.964 --> 0:05:46.764 have a lot of talent on domestic politics. They're kind 0:05:46.764 --> 0:05:49.484 of coequal. They break a lot of stories, they win 0:05:49.844 --> 0:05:53.404 a lot of Pulitzers, and they've made one decision after 0:05:53.404 --> 0:05:55.644 another have led to a lot of the other kind 0:05:55.644 --> 0:06:01.364 of cancelations, canceled subscriptions, you know, when they squashed a 0:06:01.764 --> 0:06:05.164 op ed endorsing Kamala Harris. And again I don't really 0:06:05.164 --> 0:06:07.004 think that like newspapers should be in the business of 0:06:07.084 --> 0:06:10.444 endorsing candidate, at least for national office. Have always found 0:06:10.524 --> 0:06:13.684 that strange in some ways. I find that as six 0:06:13.764 --> 0:06:17.924 between otbed and news kind of strange. But that led 0:06:17.964 --> 0:06:21.364 to I think maybe tens of thousands to hundreds of 0:06:21.404 --> 0:06:24.444 thousands of canceled subscriptions. And meanwhile, if you look at 0:06:24.764 --> 0:06:28.604 the talent, right, like, if you took like the fifty 0:06:28.644 --> 0:06:32.644 biggest name brands at the Washington Post from two years ago, 0:06:32.724 --> 0:06:36.564 I think literally half might be gone and absolutely are 0:06:36.644 --> 0:06:40.124 voluntary based on on feel like did not have editorial 0:06:40.164 --> 0:06:41.244 support of the masthead. 0:06:41.604 --> 0:06:43.204 And you know that's a challenge. 0:06:43.204 --> 0:06:44.644 I mean it might be in a world where like, 0:06:45.044 --> 0:06:48.684 you know, I think the Washington Post has significantly declined 0:06:48.724 --> 0:06:52.764 in both revenue and relevance, right and like, yeah, I know. 0:06:52.844 --> 0:06:54.884 I mean they're going to be very sensitive things like 0:06:54.884 --> 0:06:56.604 like Hulu subscriptions. 0:06:56.604 --> 0:06:58.364 That's the way these businesses work, right. 0:06:58.564 --> 0:07:01.404 Like again, ordinarily, sometimes I think boycotts are a little 0:07:01.404 --> 0:07:02.524 pretentious and cilly. 0:07:02.684 --> 0:07:04.204 Like the way these big. 0:07:05.444 --> 0:07:08.764 Gigantic, generic kind of media brands work is, you know, 0:07:08.844 --> 0:07:11.044 they don't want to get yelled at by people, right, 0:07:11.324 --> 0:07:13.284 They're risk averse, and so if they're like, well, this 0:07:13.284 --> 0:07:15.684 could jeopardize our whole business, and I think that's that's 0:07:15.684 --> 0:07:17.084 probably part of it. 0:07:18.644 --> 0:07:20.164 I Mean, one thing to understand. 0:07:19.724 --> 0:07:22.364 About Trump is he does a lot of things that 0:07:22.404 --> 0:07:25.484 I think are very extreme and objectionable. And I think 0:07:25.524 --> 0:07:27.804 this is one of the clear things that like is 0:07:27.884 --> 0:07:32.124 classic authoritarian capital a right, you look at Turkey or 0:07:32.204 --> 0:07:34.564 Russia or other countries where there's been to pull back 0:07:34.564 --> 0:07:39.004 from democracy, and like finding a pretense to cancel broadcast licenses, 0:07:39.404 --> 0:07:45.164 is is capital a authoritarian? They did kind of pulled back, 0:07:45.244 --> 0:07:49.324 and Carr kind of said, well, I was just pontificating, 0:07:49.444 --> 0:07:52.484 and well, it's important that they, you know, and people 0:07:52.524 --> 0:07:55.724 have a heuristic where they're kind of discount what it is, 0:07:56.004 --> 0:07:56.524 you know, they. 0:07:56.604 --> 0:07:59.724 They could have not pulled back. Yes, this is true now, 0:07:59.804 --> 0:08:00.484 but lo I will. 0:08:00.324 --> 0:08:02.284 Say it's I criticize them in my newsletter over that 0:08:02.284 --> 0:08:04.284 we can like, you know, I will say good for 0:08:05.204 --> 0:08:08.844 Disney for uncancelling Kimmell, who, by the way, did fuck 0:08:08.924 --> 0:08:11.404 up in some let me just you know. The fuck 0:08:11.484 --> 0:08:14.724 up is that he said or strongly implied that the 0:08:15.284 --> 0:08:21.604 person who allegedly killed Charlie Kirk was MAGA, and that 0:08:21.684 --> 0:08:23.724 MAGA was trying to MAGA made America creager and was 0:08:23.764 --> 0:08:26.484 trying to deny the fact that like he was MAGA. 0:08:26.724 --> 0:08:33.284 And you know, Kimmel said that on Monday Evenings episode 0:08:34.564 --> 0:08:37.124 based on really no evidence whatsoever, based on kind of 0:08:37.204 --> 0:08:40.524 like you know what I think are properly called kind 0:08:40.564 --> 0:08:45.044 of conspiracy theories on Blue Sky and Twitter and know 0:08:45.124 --> 0:08:48.444 and everyone uses that phrase insensitivity, Like I think this 0:08:48.684 --> 0:08:54.284 to a certain extent, the job of comedians is to 0:08:54.804 --> 0:08:57.244 press the line on sensitivity. So I think sensitivity is 0:08:57.284 --> 0:09:01.804 like a dumb euphemism, right, He Jimmy Kimmel spread misinformation. 0:09:02.524 --> 0:09:04.604 But I'll tell you what, who hasn't at some point 0:09:05.524 --> 0:09:06.844 it's script TV. It's not like to be known the 0:09:06.844 --> 0:09:09.124 reason I'm lest forgiving, but like it's far far below 0:09:10.004 --> 0:09:13.484 a canceling offense, right or a firing offense. 0:09:14.244 --> 0:09:18.484 Yeah, And just to give a bit of history to 0:09:18.524 --> 0:09:20.564 that particular point. But then I also want to go 0:09:20.684 --> 0:09:23.124 even a little further back to highlight something else that 0:09:23.164 --> 0:09:27.404 you said. There was a pretty substantial Supreme Court decision 0:09:28.004 --> 0:09:31.644 back in nineteen sixty four New York Times versus Sullivan, 0:09:32.244 --> 0:09:37.044 And that decision came out of an ad that The 0:09:37.044 --> 0:09:41.364 New York Times had run, and they basically were trying 0:09:41.364 --> 0:09:45.724 to contribute donations to defend MLK on perjury charges. And 0:09:45.764 --> 0:09:51.244 the ad had some factual inaccuracies, and LB Sullivan, who's 0:09:51.364 --> 0:09:55.564 the Sullivan of the case, said that he felt personally 0:09:55.644 --> 0:09:58.764 criticized even though he was never actually mentioned by name 0:09:58.804 --> 0:10:01.884 in the ad. He sent a request to The Times 0:10:01.924 --> 0:10:07.804 to retract the information and wanted damages. The Times refused anyway, 0:10:07.844 --> 0:10:11.244 this went all the way up to the Supreme Court, 0:10:11.684 --> 0:10:15.644 and the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Times 0:10:15.884 --> 0:10:19.484 and establish the standard known as the actual malice standard 0:10:19.564 --> 0:10:22.284 or reckless disregard of the truth. So basically, if you 0:10:22.284 --> 0:10:24.884 want to win a libel suit, you have to prove 0:10:25.444 --> 0:10:30.244 that the person who was making this statement knew it 0:10:30.324 --> 0:10:33.924 was false and acted with an malicious purpose, right, with 0:10:34.044 --> 0:10:38.044 an intent to harm the subject. Which was a huge, 0:10:38.524 --> 0:10:42.084 kind of huge win for free speech because these factual 0:10:42.084 --> 0:10:45.204 inaccuracies that were in the ad, they weren't on purpose, right, 0:10:45.244 --> 0:10:47.644 It's not like they wanted to take this guy down 0:10:47.724 --> 0:10:50.404 and so but they just said, you know, okay, yeah, 0:10:50.524 --> 0:10:53.644 like factual inaccuracies, but it's not enough to suspend our 0:10:53.724 --> 0:10:55.844 license and to get rid of this. And this was 0:10:55.924 --> 0:11:00.684 kind of a landmark First Amendment free speech decision, but 0:11:00.884 --> 0:11:03.164 something that I want to kind of go back even 0:11:03.444 --> 0:11:06.884 further in history. The reason, by the way that I 0:11:06.964 --> 0:11:09.204 invoke the actual malice standard is I think that Jimmy 0:11:09.204 --> 0:11:13.564 came well you know, also you can be factually inaccurate 0:11:13.604 --> 0:11:16.924 and not actually fullifol of that standard. Right, you didn't 0:11:16.924 --> 0:11:20.444 say it knowing that you were blatantly saying something untrue. 0:11:20.924 --> 0:11:22.684 I think at the time he probably thought that he 0:11:22.764 --> 0:11:23.884 was saying something. 0:11:24.004 --> 0:11:24.564 That was right. 0:11:24.604 --> 0:11:28.044 Whether you know he was correct journalistically or not is 0:11:28.084 --> 0:11:31.404 a different story. But going even further back, Nate, one 0:11:31.444 --> 0:11:35.244 of the things that you said was that, you know, networks, 0:11:35.444 --> 0:11:40.084 places like Disney are constantly way playing this calculus, right. 0:11:40.084 --> 0:11:42.164 They don't want to get criticized, and they're trying to 0:11:42.204 --> 0:11:44.964 figure out, like what do we do, how do we 0:11:45.564 --> 0:11:49.684 sidestep that? And it's really interesting to me because I 0:11:49.684 --> 0:11:52.604 think that all of the free speech attacks in the 0:11:52.684 --> 0:11:57.524 United States have shown this kind of constant calculus, and 0:11:57.564 --> 0:12:00.404 it's not always worked out the way that the person 0:12:00.604 --> 0:12:03.204 thought it was. So I think this the oldest kind 0:12:03.204 --> 0:12:05.724 of attack goes back to seventeen ninety eight with the 0:12:05.724 --> 0:12:10.644 Sedition Act, right, And this was John Adams when he 0:12:10.724 --> 0:12:13.884 basically said they were in a war with France. It 0:12:13.924 --> 0:12:17.164 wasn't a declared war, and he wanted to silence media 0:12:17.204 --> 0:12:20.044 critics of the government, and so he passed an act 0:12:20.044 --> 0:12:23.204 that said it was unlawful to publish any quote, false, 0:12:23.324 --> 0:12:28.644 scandalous and malicious writing against the government end quote. And 0:12:29.084 --> 0:12:33.164 the measures were huge, fins up to two thousand dollars. 0:12:33.284 --> 0:12:35.044 I mean, how much is that, I don't even know. 0:12:35.364 --> 0:12:39.084 In seventeen ninety eight, like that's insane, two years in prison. 0:12:39.764 --> 0:12:42.884 And so a lot of publications started censoring themselves. But 0:12:43.044 --> 0:12:47.244 what ended up happening, and they actually used it very punitively. 0:12:47.564 --> 0:12:51.724 They ended up sending people to jail. Several newspapers had 0:12:51.724 --> 0:12:55.804 to shut down. But what ended up happening was that 0:12:55.884 --> 0:12:58.644 there was a huge backlash against this right. This was 0:12:58.684 --> 0:13:02.004 the end of the Federalists. Jefferson came to power on 0:13:02.244 --> 0:13:07.604 like a huge wave of support, and even later the 0:13:07.964 --> 0:13:11.204 Justice Samuel Chase of the Supreme Court, who had been 0:13:11.324 --> 0:13:15.804 very pro Sedition Act, he was impeached for this. So 0:13:15.924 --> 0:13:20.204 basically everyone was galvanized against it. So it ended up 0:13:20.804 --> 0:13:25.804 just having a huge, huge backlash to that. Attempt to 0:13:25.884 --> 0:13:29.204 stem free speech happened again during World War One with 0:13:29.284 --> 0:13:32.964 Woodrow Wilson, who was a scholar who had actually defended 0:13:33.124 --> 0:13:36.764 free speech, and he tried to get another Sedition Act. 0:13:36.964 --> 0:13:40.204 Then we had McCarthyism in the fifties who tried to 0:13:40.204 --> 0:13:43.924 bully journalists and do all of that that again big 0:13:44.644 --> 0:13:48.844 backlash people did. The people who stood up to McCarthyism 0:13:48.884 --> 0:13:51.324 have fared much better in the eyes of history than 0:13:51.364 --> 0:13:54.804 the people like McCarthy himself. Then we've got New York 0:13:54.804 --> 0:13:58.204 Times versus Sullivan. Then we get Richard Nixon, and so 0:13:58.284 --> 0:14:00.804 it's very funny when you started saying that you think 0:14:00.804 --> 0:14:04.484 the best kind of example is the Washington Post. I 0:14:04.564 --> 0:14:06.524 thought you were going to go in a totally different direction, 0:14:06.684 --> 0:14:09.844 because the other time that an FCC license was threatened 0:14:09.924 --> 0:14:12.924 was against the Washington Post when they were trying to 0:14:12.964 --> 0:14:16.524 publish the Pentagon Papers. They published them anyway, and obviously 0:14:16.604 --> 0:14:22.004 they won that battle. But Nixon was probably, other than Trump, 0:14:22.044 --> 0:14:27.004 the single most vindictive president against the media. He ousted 0:14:27.124 --> 0:14:31.404 Stuart Lourie for an article that he wrote in nineteen 0:14:31.444 --> 0:14:34.364 seventy one for the La Times, so he actually just 0:14:34.404 --> 0:14:38.604 banned him from the White House. And you know, he 0:14:39.524 --> 0:14:43.044 basically said that the press, whom he started calling the 0:14:43.044 --> 0:14:48.004 media that comes from Nixon, was the enemy, and told 0:14:48.204 --> 0:14:52.964 his Vice president Spiro Agnew, to constantly attack the media. 0:14:53.324 --> 0:14:57.084 He referred to them as a small and unelected elite 0:14:57.644 --> 0:15:01.644 and basically create a rift so that people wouldn't trust 0:15:02.644 --> 0:15:05.924 the media. And he even threatened lawsuits if anyone used 0:15:06.084 --> 0:15:10.724 tricky Dick in print, so that you know, it became 0:15:10.764 --> 0:15:14.324 incredibly petty, and he did kind of this. Trump is 0:15:14.364 --> 0:15:16.884 really taking a page out of his playbook in a way, 0:15:16.884 --> 0:15:22.364 because he had the irs investigate tax returns by Seymour, 0:15:22.404 --> 0:15:26.764 Hirsh and other journalists that the White House didn't really like. 0:15:27.244 --> 0:15:30.164 And so the thing that I found that I thought 0:15:30.204 --> 0:15:35.564 was the most ridiculous is this was pre Watergate, Gordon 0:15:35.644 --> 0:15:42.204 Liddy and Howard Hunt discussed murdering a journalist, Jack Anderson, 0:15:42.444 --> 0:15:47.764 like actually killing him, so that he would stop basically 0:15:48.004 --> 0:15:51.364 the leaks that were damaging to Dixon into the administration 0:15:51.804 --> 0:15:56.564 and stop any further criticism of the administration. They considered 0:15:56.564 --> 0:16:00.244 things like putting LSD on his steering wheel so that 0:16:00.284 --> 0:16:03.404 he would start hallucinating while driving his car and get 0:16:03.404 --> 0:16:05.404 into a car crash, which isn't. 0:16:05.244 --> 0:16:07.804 Free osc Yeah, exactly. 0:16:08.564 --> 0:16:12.364 I don't think they realized how LSD. Yeah. Anyway, and 0:16:12.404 --> 0:16:14.404 then Lyddy, this is a quote from Lyddy. He said, 0:16:14.404 --> 0:16:18.564 I would have knifed him or broken his neck end quote. 0:16:19.044 --> 0:16:22.604 So this is all to say that, you know, we 0:16:22.684 --> 0:16:25.404 see these sorts of attacks in the past, and every 0:16:25.444 --> 0:16:27.924 single time they have not worked out well, but every 0:16:27.964 --> 0:16:30.924 single time the media has actually fought back. Right the 0:16:31.004 --> 0:16:36.124 Washington Post published Pentagon papers, Laurie had a career in journalism, 0:16:36.164 --> 0:16:39.884 like people would hire him after that, and Seymour Hirsch 0:16:39.964 --> 0:16:43.924 obviously Pulitzer Prize, like all of these people are storied 0:16:44.124 --> 0:16:48.084 journalists and people who had the support of the country. 0:16:48.484 --> 0:16:52.484 And with Kimmel at the beginning, it was the first 0:16:52.524 --> 0:16:56.764 time that an organization had gotten a threat from the 0:16:56.844 --> 0:16:59.684 FCC and rather than saying no, fuck you, you know, 0:16:59.724 --> 0:17:03.324 we're the media and this is freedom of press, said okay, okay, 0:17:03.404 --> 0:17:07.604 we'll fire you until they didn't. So this is I 0:17:07.604 --> 0:17:10.644 think a very interesting moment. But those historical precedents I 0:17:10.644 --> 0:17:14.044 think are really interesting to keep in mind, especially because 0:17:14.084 --> 0:17:16.084 they did not turn out well for the government. 0:17:17.364 --> 0:17:32.324 And we'll be right back after this break. I think 0:17:32.324 --> 0:17:34.524 with anything we're covering in today's age, you have to 0:17:34.524 --> 0:17:40.004 be aware that most commentators have a bias towards thinking 0:17:41.364 --> 0:17:43.684 history begins when their age eight, you know what I mean. 0:17:44.684 --> 0:17:47.324 In the longer sweep of like how does this moment 0:17:47.324 --> 0:17:50.764 in America relate to There's a lot of miles in 0:17:50.804 --> 0:17:53.044 the sixties, right, the Civil War. I mean that, you know, 0:17:53.244 --> 0:17:55.444 I think I think one has to be careful with 0:17:55.524 --> 0:17:58.764 those comparisons, and it might be concerning enough that we 0:17:58.884 --> 0:18:02.404 seem to be losing decades of progress. 0:18:01.484 --> 0:18:02.844 On some issues, right, yep. 0:18:04.524 --> 0:18:06.204 I mean there was the other president, which is you know, 0:18:06.804 --> 0:18:11.004 do you know who Jimmy Kimmel. 0:18:09.604 --> 0:18:10.204 Used on ABC. 0:18:11.724 --> 0:18:17.044 I don't remember Bill Maher because Bill Maher's politically incorrect 0:18:17.564 --> 0:18:21.284 got canceled because he said the nine to eleven terrorists 0:18:21.724 --> 0:18:23.124 were courageous and we. 0:18:23.004 --> 0:18:27.644 Are not lobbying cruise missiles from thousands of miles away, right. 0:18:27.884 --> 0:18:32.964 He said that like seven days after nine eleven. It 0:18:33.084 --> 0:18:35.764 was litigated in the press for a much longer time. 0:18:35.884 --> 0:18:38.324 Eventually his show was. 0:18:39.964 --> 0:18:42.044 Let lapse, and then he went to HBO and I'm 0:18:42.084 --> 0:18:44.884 sure made lots of money and became more than ye 0:18:45.324 --> 0:18:48.044 you know, part of cancelation. And now I want to 0:18:48.044 --> 0:18:51.124 be clear, I thought that their cancel culture was a 0:18:51.164 --> 0:18:54.844 thing that liberals I call them progressives because it's a 0:18:54.884 --> 0:19:02.444 very illiberal attitude, right, that progressives really were bloodthirsty for 0:19:02.684 --> 0:19:04.484 a number of years kind of picking in the year 0:19:04.564 --> 0:19:07.044 twenty twenty or so, I thought it was an embarrassment 0:19:07.044 --> 0:19:09.364 to the liberal tradition of free speech. I think there 0:19:09.444 --> 0:19:12.924 hetty and jealous, and they don't understand how in a 0:19:13.084 --> 0:19:16.364 relatively free country that when you suppress speech, it usually 0:19:16.364 --> 0:19:19.404 only makes it more compelling and like and more powerful. Right, 0:19:19.924 --> 0:19:22.444 And they thought they could contain the information ecosystem. 0:19:22.604 --> 0:19:24.044 They accomplished nothing that they wanted. 0:19:24.284 --> 0:19:30.564 And you know, they have direct moral responsibility for contributing 0:19:30.604 --> 0:19:34.564 to a climate in which free speech is compromised. With 0:19:34.564 --> 0:19:36.924 that said, Maria, as you said, people have always been 0:19:37.044 --> 0:19:43.844 hypocritical about free speech. The definition's always been contingent and 0:19:43.924 --> 0:19:49.164 evolving in practice, right. And so you know, if you 0:19:49.484 --> 0:19:52.044 were around for September eleventh when Bill mahrg got canceled, 0:19:52.084 --> 0:19:54.924 the Dixie Chicks and Phil Donahue and and other you 0:19:54.964 --> 0:19:57.764 know people, you know you're not like, you're not surprised 0:19:57.844 --> 0:19:59.804 very much by by any of this. 0:20:00.044 --> 0:20:02.684 And now if I'm Trump, now it's my turn. Now 0:20:02.684 --> 0:20:03.284 it's my turn. 0:20:03.524 --> 0:20:05.844 And I felt, I think justifiably, there was a lot 0:20:05.884 --> 0:20:08.604 of bullshit from progressives when they were in power, right, 0:20:08.684 --> 0:20:11.124 and we went rever right and by the way, I 0:20:11.124 --> 0:20:13.964 don't think progressives have often stood up for like the 0:20:14.044 --> 0:20:18.404 higher minded principles either, right, they don't think like good 0:20:18.404 --> 0:20:21.604 poker players, where it's like, okay, what is the equilibrium 0:20:21.644 --> 0:20:24.244 If everybody adopts this attitude, it's kind of contient, like 0:20:24.284 --> 0:20:27.084 the golden rule, right, have decided to get along, if 0:20:27.124 --> 0:20:29.084 you know, literally just put yourself in the person's shoes 0:20:29.124 --> 0:20:31.364 and say, eventually your public is going to win back 0:20:31.404 --> 0:20:33.084 in office. And by the way, eventually we'll be a 0:20:33.084 --> 0:20:35.484 Democrat back in office, maybe in in I guess for 0:20:35.484 --> 0:20:37.244 early in Trump term three and a half years, right, 0:20:37.764 --> 0:20:40.964 you know, turnabout will be fair play then, But like 0:20:41.444 --> 0:20:43.444 perpetually you're losing it. 0:20:44.124 --> 0:20:48.764 No, I think that we forget that. We forget that 0:20:49.164 --> 0:20:53.644 free speech was created to protect speech we don't like, 0:20:54.164 --> 0:20:57.204 but not speech that we agree with. People forget this 0:20:57.364 --> 0:20:59.524 all the time. They're like, yes, free speech. Wait, you 0:20:59.564 --> 0:21:02.684 said something that I disagree with. You can't say that. 0:21:02.964 --> 0:21:06.004 And we've said this on the show before, and you know, 0:21:06.244 --> 0:21:09.484 I don't want to constantly give you history lessons, but 0:21:09.564 --> 0:21:13.484 remember we talked about Skochie, Illinois, Nate and kind of 0:21:13.724 --> 0:21:16.644 and the ACLU on this show before. For people who 0:21:16.644 --> 0:21:20.444 missed that episode. I was basically kind of a case 0:21:20.564 --> 0:21:24.964 that went to the Supreme Court that involved letting neo 0:21:25.044 --> 0:21:29.204 Nazis march in a Jewish in a predominantly Jewish community, 0:21:29.444 --> 0:21:31.444 and the ACL you took it on, and I remember, 0:21:31.604 --> 0:21:35.524 I still remember learning about that and being like, holy shit, 0:21:35.804 --> 0:21:38.484 Like fuck those guys. But yes, like you have to 0:21:38.524 --> 0:21:42.284 protect the speech that you most disagree with, because that's 0:21:42.404 --> 0:21:45.524 the whole point, right, that is what free speech means. 0:21:45.804 --> 0:21:48.284 It means that we can disagree. It means that we 0:21:48.284 --> 0:21:51.284 can have civil discourse. It means that we can all 0:21:51.564 --> 0:21:54.684 have all of these different ideas, and it's okay. So 0:21:54.924 --> 0:21:57.924 I actually nate agree with you that, you know, the 0:21:58.044 --> 0:22:00.204 liberals went way too far. I think this was the 0:22:00.244 --> 0:22:02.444 case in academia, you know. I think this was the 0:22:02.444 --> 0:22:06.924 case at my alma mater, Harvard, where certain professors lost 0:22:06.924 --> 0:22:10.484 their jobs right for I was saying idea, you know, 0:22:10.564 --> 0:22:14.804 for engaging in research that was not politically correct, and 0:22:15.044 --> 0:22:18.524 that's not what academia is about. As long as you 0:22:18.724 --> 0:22:22.324 are not academically dishonest, as long as you're actually kind 0:22:22.364 --> 0:22:26.284 of trying to figure out what the truth is, you know, 0:22:26.324 --> 0:22:29.244 you're allowed to hold different opinions. But I think that 0:22:29.804 --> 0:22:32.924 as you say, this isn't like we've devolved, like this 0:22:32.964 --> 0:22:36.124 is horrifying, like that this is now the spiral right, 0:22:36.204 --> 0:22:39.164 and instead you need to kind of reset and go 0:22:39.284 --> 0:22:41.964 back to those first principles and say, Okay, you know, 0:22:42.204 --> 0:22:45.004 free speech, we're for it. The Supreme Court has to 0:22:45.044 --> 0:22:49.004 say this country is for free speech, and the FCC 0:22:49.244 --> 0:22:53.044 can't be threatening licenses because of something somebody said that 0:22:53.084 --> 0:22:55.644 they don't like, and we can't be in a climate, 0:22:55.724 --> 0:22:58.284 you know. After that, Trump doubled down and said, yeah, 0:22:58.324 --> 0:23:01.004 you know, you shouldn't criticize the president. If we don't 0:23:01.044 --> 0:23:03.524 like you or you say something bad about me, there 0:23:03.524 --> 0:23:05.964 are going to be consequences. I mean, it's insane right 0:23:06.004 --> 0:23:08.484 for a president to say that, But we're at the 0:23:08.484 --> 0:23:10.724 point where people there are a lot of people who 0:23:10.724 --> 0:23:13.044 don't think it's insane and who are like, yeah, serves 0:23:13.044 --> 0:23:16.884 you right, you shouldn't criticize the president. And the funniest 0:23:16.924 --> 0:23:23.284 thing is what has prompted this whole conversation is the 0:23:23.364 --> 0:23:26.284 death of Charlie Kirk, who I think, you know, I 0:23:26.324 --> 0:23:29.164 didn't know him and I didn't know much about him 0:23:29.244 --> 0:23:32.404