1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:27,804 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 2 00:00:27,844 --> 00:00:31,124 Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova and I'm Nate Silver. 3 00:00:31,924 --> 00:00:33,884 Speaker 2: Stay in the show. Have you been canceled ever? 4 00:00:34,204 --> 00:00:38,644 Speaker 1: Maria, I have not been canceled. Have you ever been 5 00:00:38,684 --> 00:00:39,324 Speaker 1: canceled night? 6 00:00:39,484 --> 00:00:40,364 Speaker 2: Oh people have tried. 7 00:00:40,444 --> 00:00:43,004 Speaker 3: If you listened to the last episode with elehone, you 8 00:00:43,044 --> 00:00:45,084 Speaker 3: know you come at the King, you best not miss 9 00:00:45,524 --> 00:00:49,044 Speaker 3: fucking blue Sky. Idiots on fucking Twitter and now they 10 00:00:49,084 --> 00:00:49,884 Speaker 3: moved to Blue Sky. 11 00:00:51,164 --> 00:00:54,004 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's how you really feel, Nate about. 12 00:00:56,004 --> 00:00:59,244 Speaker 2: No, it's a strategy of the week. 13 00:01:00,684 --> 00:01:03,404 Speaker 1: No, No, it is and sometimes of the strong. 14 00:01:04,684 --> 00:01:06,804 Speaker 3: Today in the show, we're going to be talking a 15 00:01:06,844 --> 00:01:10,324 Speaker 3: little bit about Jimmy Kimmel. Maria, I think you're going 16 00:01:10,364 --> 00:01:13,044 Speaker 3: to have some historical points of view. I'll just I'll 17 00:01:13,124 --> 00:01:14,164 Speaker 3: just be rampting. 18 00:01:15,404 --> 00:01:17,204 Speaker 2: Evidence. I'll just have takes. 19 00:01:18,844 --> 00:01:22,324 Speaker 1: We will we will go into some historical context in 20 00:01:22,364 --> 00:01:25,684 Speaker 1: a discussion of free speech and how it has evolved 21 00:01:25,924 --> 00:01:29,684 Speaker 1: throughout the history of the United States. So on. On 22 00:01:29,724 --> 00:01:37,684 Speaker 1: that note, Nate, let's let's talk some Jimmy Kimmel. Last week, 23 00:01:37,804 --> 00:01:42,124 Speaker 1: Jimmy Kimmel's show was canceled indefinitely by the powers that 24 00:01:42,204 --> 00:01:48,844 Speaker 1: be at Disney and ABC, and we are taping this 25 00:01:49,044 --> 00:01:52,884 Speaker 1: on Monday, September twenty second. We just found out that 26 00:01:53,004 --> 00:01:56,564 Speaker 1: Jimmy Kimmel Live Show is going to be returning. By 27 00:01:56,604 --> 00:01:58,564 Speaker 1: the time you guys here this Wednesday will have been 28 00:01:58,804 --> 00:02:01,404 Speaker 1: last night. But I do want to stress that we 29 00:02:01,524 --> 00:02:04,284 Speaker 1: have not actually seen or heard the return yet. But yes, 30 00:02:04,444 --> 00:02:09,044 Speaker 1: they just made an announcement that they will be bringing 31 00:02:09,524 --> 00:02:14,844 Speaker 1: Me Kimmel back to the air after discussions with mister 32 00:02:14,924 --> 00:02:21,964 Speaker 1: Kimmel about the future. And the original cancelation was very, 33 00:02:22,084 --> 00:02:25,804 Speaker 1: very different from anything we've talked about on the show 34 00:02:26,164 --> 00:02:28,564 Speaker 1: in terms of like cancel no, no, in some ways 35 00:02:28,564 --> 00:02:32,924 Speaker 1: hold on, may I finish in terms of cancel culture 36 00:02:32,964 --> 00:02:36,524 Speaker 1: because it was coming from Brendan Carr, the chairman of 37 00:02:36,564 --> 00:02:41,964 Speaker 1: the FCC, who exerted pressure on the brass at Disney 38 00:02:42,044 --> 00:02:45,684 Speaker 1: to cancel the show and made some very veiled but 39 00:02:45,764 --> 00:02:48,924 Speaker 1: not that veiled threats that you know, we're probably going 40 00:02:49,004 --> 00:02:50,884 Speaker 1: to pull your license. 41 00:02:51,404 --> 00:02:53,004 Speaker 2: It was like, hey, we can do it's the easy 42 00:02:53,044 --> 00:02:55,564 Speaker 2: way of the hodway. You sound exactly exactly. 43 00:02:55,644 --> 00:02:57,884 Speaker 1: It sounded like we were back in the Sopranos, you know, 44 00:02:58,204 --> 00:03:04,164 Speaker 1: or or you know Sopranos because a much worse written 45 00:03:04,244 --> 00:03:07,164 Speaker 1: version of the Sopranos, someone who didn't actually know how 46 00:03:07,204 --> 00:03:09,204 Speaker 1: to write and decided the easy way or the hard 47 00:03:09,204 --> 00:03:12,004 Speaker 1: way was the way to write this dialogue. But yeah, 48 00:03:12,044 --> 00:03:14,844 Speaker 1: so that's what happened. And that's why I said, that's 49 00:03:14,924 --> 00:03:17,644 Speaker 1: a different from what we've been talking about, because there's 50 00:03:18,124 --> 00:03:20,244 Speaker 1: you know, cancel culture, and then there's the chairman of 51 00:03:20,244 --> 00:03:23,444 Speaker 1: the FCC saying, hey, if you can say anything we 52 00:03:23,524 --> 00:03:28,284 Speaker 1: don't like, we're gonna yank your license. So in response, 53 00:03:28,324 --> 00:03:30,284 Speaker 1: you know, there were tons of protests. There was a 54 00:03:30,324 --> 00:03:34,964 Speaker 1: lot of people canceling their subscriptions to you know, Hulu, ABC, ESPN, 55 00:03:35,044 --> 00:03:37,924 Speaker 1: all of these things. And Nate, I'm actually very curious. 56 00:03:38,244 --> 00:03:40,204 Speaker 1: I do want to give some background to this in 57 00:03:40,244 --> 00:03:43,364 Speaker 1: a second, but while we're setting kind of the present 58 00:03:43,444 --> 00:03:46,644 Speaker 1: day context, I'm curious what you think the you know, 59 00:03:46,764 --> 00:03:50,244 Speaker 1: financial impact of this was, because I actually I saw 60 00:03:50,284 --> 00:03:53,884 Speaker 1: a lot of people canceling subscriptions that I wouldn't have expected, 61 00:03:53,924 --> 00:03:56,484 Speaker 1: and I wonder, you know, I wonder if this is 62 00:03:56,924 --> 00:03:59,724 Speaker 1: in any way a financial decision as well, whether that 63 00:03:59,884 --> 00:04:02,364 Speaker 1: actually had an effect or not. I don't know. I 64 00:04:02,404 --> 00:04:05,204 Speaker 1: want to think that it did, but I'm actually just 65 00:04:05,284 --> 00:04:08,484 Speaker 1: curious what you what your take on that particular element is. 66 00:04:08,804 --> 00:04:10,884 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I worked for Disney for ten years. 67 00:04:10,924 --> 00:04:14,404 Speaker 3: I've ESPN and ABC News, so full disclosure, you know, 68 00:04:14,484 --> 00:04:18,164 Speaker 3: I have you know, a pension which is a Disney stock. 69 00:04:18,484 --> 00:04:20,884 Speaker 3: But I also hate their guts, so that bias probably 70 00:04:20,884 --> 00:04:25,524 Speaker 3: outweighs my financial motivation. But like, look, these companies tend 71 00:04:25,524 --> 00:04:29,924 Speaker 3: to make decisions very expediently. 72 00:04:29,564 --> 00:04:30,884 Speaker 2: Is one way I would put it. 73 00:04:31,124 --> 00:04:35,204 Speaker 3: Right, Maybe you have people who have vision about individual products, right, 74 00:04:35,244 --> 00:04:37,084 Speaker 3: but like I think at the end of the day, 75 00:04:37,924 --> 00:04:42,404 Speaker 3: Bob Eiger cares about theme parks and movies and big 76 00:04:42,404 --> 00:04:47,964 Speaker 3: franchise IP right use gigantic projects and like and probably 77 00:04:48,004 --> 00:04:51,844 Speaker 3: sees ABC News as this thing that like, you know, 78 00:04:52,284 --> 00:04:55,484 Speaker 3: still I think probably makes money. I mean, TV news 79 00:04:55,724 --> 00:04:57,124 Speaker 3: does not get the ratings at once to you, but 80 00:04:57,164 --> 00:05:00,644 Speaker 3: it's not that expensive to produce as compared to like 81 00:05:00,684 --> 00:05:02,804 Speaker 3: scripted drama or things like that. 82 00:05:03,164 --> 00:05:05,084 Speaker 2: But like, increasingly these big. 83 00:05:04,924 --> 00:05:06,644 Speaker 3: Networks have wondered, do we even want to be in 84 00:05:06,684 --> 00:05:09,284 Speaker 3: the news business at all? Right, Like the head of 85 00:05:09,404 --> 00:05:12,844 Speaker 3: Disney doesn't really care about like the creative or journalistic 86 00:05:12,844 --> 00:05:15,604 Speaker 3: integrity accept to the extent that like you know, it 87 00:05:15,724 --> 00:05:19,644 Speaker 3: might create problems for talent down the line. So yeah, look, 88 00:05:19,724 --> 00:05:22,524 Speaker 3: the president I would draw is to the Washington. 89 00:05:22,204 --> 00:05:24,204 Speaker 2: Post, which is all by Jeff Bezos. 90 00:05:24,404 --> 00:05:26,844 Speaker 3: I'm a keen observer of media, particularly when it comes 91 00:05:26,844 --> 00:05:31,324 Speaker 3: to covering American domestic politics. Right, I would say five 92 00:05:31,404 --> 00:05:34,004 Speaker 3: or ten years ago and people would say, well, you know, 93 00:05:34,084 --> 00:05:37,124 Speaker 3: the New York Times is the most presigious and highest 94 00:05:37,164 --> 00:05:41,324 Speaker 3: grossing newspaper at least center left newspaper media brand in America. 95 00:05:41,644 --> 00:05:43,964 Speaker 3: But the Washington Post is nipping at their heels. They 96 00:05:43,964 --> 00:05:46,764 Speaker 3: have a lot of talent on domestic politics. They're kind 97 00:05:46,764 --> 00:05:49,484 Speaker 3: of coequal. They break a lot of stories, they win 98 00:05:49,844 --> 00:05:53,404 Speaker 3: a lot of Pulitzers, and they've made one decision after 99 00:05:53,404 --> 00:05:55,644 Speaker 3: another have led to a lot of the other kind 100 00:05:55,644 --> 00:06:01,364 Speaker 3: of cancelations, canceled subscriptions, you know, when they squashed a 101 00:06:01,764 --> 00:06:05,164 Speaker 3: op ed endorsing Kamala Harris. And again I don't really 102 00:06:05,164 --> 00:06:07,004 Speaker 3: think that like newspapers should be in the business of 103 00:06:07,084 --> 00:06:10,444 Speaker 3: endorsing candidate, at least for national office. Have always found 104 00:06:10,524 --> 00:06:13,684 Speaker 3: that strange in some ways. I find that as six 105 00:06:13,764 --> 00:06:17,924 Speaker 3: between otbed and news kind of strange. But that led 106 00:06:17,964 --> 00:06:21,364 Speaker 3: to I think maybe tens of thousands to hundreds of 107 00:06:21,404 --> 00:06:24,444 Speaker 3: thousands of canceled subscriptions. And meanwhile, if you look at 108 00:06:24,764 --> 00:06:28,604 Speaker 3: the talent, right, like, if you took like the fifty 109 00:06:28,644 --> 00:06:32,644 Speaker 3: biggest name brands at the Washington Post from two years ago, 110 00:06:32,724 --> 00:06:36,564 Speaker 3: I think literally half might be gone and absolutely are 111 00:06:36,644 --> 00:06:40,124 Speaker 3: voluntary based on on feel like did not have editorial 112 00:06:40,164 --> 00:06:41,244 Speaker 3: support of the masthead. 113 00:06:41,604 --> 00:06:43,204 Speaker 2: And you know that's a challenge. 114 00:06:43,204 --> 00:06:44,644 Speaker 3: I mean it might be in a world where like, 115 00:06:45,044 --> 00:06:48,684 Speaker 3: you know, I think the Washington Post has significantly declined 116 00:06:48,724 --> 00:06:52,764 Speaker 3: in both revenue and relevance, right and like, yeah, I know. 117 00:06:52,844 --> 00:06:54,884 Speaker 3: I mean they're going to be very sensitive things like 118 00:06:54,884 --> 00:06:56,604 Speaker 3: like Hulu subscriptions. 119 00:06:56,604 --> 00:06:58,364 Speaker 2: That's the way these businesses work, right. 120 00:06:58,564 --> 00:07:01,404 Speaker 3: Like again, ordinarily, sometimes I think boycotts are a little 121 00:07:01,404 --> 00:07:02,524 Speaker 3: pretentious and cilly. 122 00:07:02,684 --> 00:07:04,204 Speaker 2: Like the way these big. 123 00:07:05,444 --> 00:07:08,764 Speaker 3: Gigantic, generic kind of media brands work is, you know, 124 00:07:08,844 --> 00:07:11,044 Speaker 3: they don't want to get yelled at by people, right, 125 00:07:11,324 --> 00:07:13,284 Speaker 3: They're risk averse, and so if they're like, well, this 126 00:07:13,284 --> 00:07:15,684 Speaker 3: could jeopardize our whole business, and I think that's that's 127 00:07:15,684 --> 00:07:17,084 Speaker 3: probably part of it. 128 00:07:18,644 --> 00:07:20,164 Speaker 2: I Mean, one thing to understand. 129 00:07:19,724 --> 00:07:22,364 Speaker 3: About Trump is he does a lot of things that 130 00:07:22,404 --> 00:07:25,484 Speaker 3: I think are very extreme and objectionable. And I think 131 00:07:25,524 --> 00:07:27,804 Speaker 3: this is one of the clear things that like is 132 00:07:27,884 --> 00:07:32,124 Speaker 3: classic authoritarian capital a right, you look at Turkey or 133 00:07:32,204 --> 00:07:34,564 Speaker 3: Russia or other countries where there's been to pull back 134 00:07:34,564 --> 00:07:39,004 Speaker 3: from democracy, and like finding a pretense to cancel broadcast licenses, 135 00:07:39,404 --> 00:07:45,164 Speaker 3: is is capital a authoritarian? They did kind of pulled back, 136 00:07:45,244 --> 00:07:49,324 Speaker 3: and Carr kind of said, well, I was just pontificating, 137 00:07:49,444 --> 00:07:52,484 Speaker 3: and well, it's important that they, you know, and people 138 00:07:52,524 --> 00:07:55,724 Speaker 3: have a heuristic where they're kind of discount what it is, 139 00:07:56,004 --> 00:07:56,524 Speaker 3: you know, they. 140 00:07:56,604 --> 00:07:59,724 Speaker 1: They could have not pulled back. Yes, this is true now, 141 00:07:59,804 --> 00:08:00,484 Speaker 1: but lo I will. 142 00:08:00,324 --> 00:08:02,284 Speaker 3: Say it's I criticize them in my newsletter over that 143 00:08:02,284 --> 00:08:04,284 Speaker 3: we can like, you know, I will say good for 144 00:08:05,204 --> 00:08:08,844 Speaker 3: Disney for uncancelling Kimmell, who, by the way, did fuck 145 00:08:08,924 --> 00:08:11,404 Speaker 3: up in some let me just you know. The fuck 146 00:08:11,484 --> 00:08:14,724 Speaker 3: up is that he said or strongly implied that the 147 00:08:15,284 --> 00:08:21,604 Speaker 3: person who allegedly killed Charlie Kirk was MAGA, and that 148 00:08:21,684 --> 00:08:23,724 Speaker 3: MAGA was trying to MAGA made America creager and was 149 00:08:23,764 --> 00:08:26,484 Speaker 3: trying to deny the fact that like he was MAGA. 150 00:08:26,724 --> 00:08:33,284 Speaker 3: And you know, Kimmel said that on Monday Evenings episode 151 00:08:34,564 --> 00:08:37,124 Speaker 3: based on really no evidence whatsoever, based on kind of 152 00:08:37,204 --> 00:08:40,524 Speaker 3: like you know what I think are properly called kind 153 00:08:40,564 --> 00:08:45,044 Speaker 3: of conspiracy theories on Blue Sky and Twitter and know 154 00:08:45,124 --> 00:08:48,444 Speaker 3: and everyone uses that phrase insensitivity, Like I think this 155 00:08:48,684 --> 00:08:54,284 Speaker 3: to a certain extent, the job of comedians is to 156 00:08:54,804 --> 00:08:57,244 Speaker 3: press the line on sensitivity. So I think sensitivity is 157 00:08:57,284 --> 00:09:01,804 Speaker 3: like a dumb euphemism, right, He Jimmy Kimmel spread misinformation. 158 00:09:02,524 --> 00:09:04,604 Speaker 3: But I'll tell you what, who hasn't at some point 159 00:09:05,524 --> 00:09:06,844 Speaker 3: it's script TV. It's not like to be known the 160 00:09:06,844 --> 00:09:09,124 Speaker 3: reason I'm lest forgiving, but like it's far far below 161 00:09:10,004 --> 00:09:13,484 Speaker 3: a canceling offense, right or a firing offense. 162 00:09:14,244 --> 00:09:18,484 Speaker 1: Yeah, And just to give a bit of history to 163 00:09:18,524 --> 00:09:20,564 Speaker 1: that particular point. But then I also want to go 164 00:09:20,684 --> 00:09:23,124 Speaker 1: even a little further back to highlight something else that 165 00:09:23,164 --> 00:09:27,404 Speaker 1: you said. There was a pretty substantial Supreme Court decision 166 00:09:28,004 --> 00:09:31,644 Speaker 1: back in nineteen sixty four New York Times versus Sullivan, 167 00:09:32,244 --> 00:09:37,044 Speaker 1: And that decision came out of an ad that The 168 00:09:37,044 --> 00:09:41,364 Speaker 1: New York Times had run, and they basically were trying 169 00:09:41,364 --> 00:09:45,724 Speaker 1: to contribute donations to defend MLK on perjury charges. And 170 00:09:45,764 --> 00:09:51,244 Speaker 1: the ad had some factual inaccuracies, and LB Sullivan, who's 171 00:09:51,364 --> 00:09:55,564 Speaker 1: the Sullivan of the case, said that he felt personally 172 00:09:55,644 --> 00:09:58,764 Speaker 1: criticized even though he was never actually mentioned by name 173 00:09:58,804 --> 00:10:01,884 Speaker 1: in the ad. He sent a request to The Times 174 00:10:01,924 --> 00:10:07,804 Speaker 1: to retract the information and wanted damages. The Times refused anyway, 175 00:10:07,844 --> 00:10:11,244 Speaker 1: this went all the way up to the Supreme Court, 176 00:10:11,684 --> 00:10:15,644 Speaker 1: and the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Times 177 00:10:15,884 --> 00:10:19,484 Speaker 1: and establish the standard known as the actual malice standard 178 00:10:19,564 --> 00:10:22,284 Speaker 1: or reckless disregard of the truth. So basically, if you 179 00:10:22,284 --> 00:10:24,884 Speaker 1: want to win a libel suit, you have to prove 180 00:10:25,444 --> 00:10:30,244 Speaker 1: that the person who was making this statement knew it 181 00:10:30,324 --> 00:10:33,924 Speaker 1: was false and acted with an malicious purpose, right, with 182 00:10:34,044 --> 00:10:38,044 Speaker 1: an intent to harm the subject. Which was a huge, 183 00:10:38,524 --> 00:10:42,084 Speaker 1: kind of huge win for free speech because these factual 184 00:10:42,084 --> 00:10:45,204 Speaker 1: inaccuracies that were in the ad, they weren't on purpose, right, 185 00:10:45,244 --> 00:10:47,644 Speaker 1: It's not like they wanted to take this guy down 186 00:10:47,724 --> 00:10:50,404 Speaker 1: and so but they just said, you know, okay, yeah, 187 00:10:50,524 --> 00:10:53,644 Speaker 1: like factual inaccuracies, but it's not enough to suspend our 188 00:10:53,724 --> 00:10:55,844 Speaker 1: license and to get rid of this. And this was 189 00:10:55,924 --> 00:11:00,684 Speaker 1: kind of a landmark First Amendment free speech decision, but 190 00:11:00,884 --> 00:11:03,164 Speaker 1: something that I want to kind of go back even 191 00:11:03,444 --> 00:11:06,884 Speaker 1: further in history. The reason, by the way that I 192 00:11:06,964 --> 00:11:09,204 Speaker 1: invoke the actual malice standard is I think that Jimmy 193 00:11:09,204 --> 00:11:13,564 Speaker 1: came well you know, also you can be factually inaccurate 194 00:11:13,604 --> 00:11:16,924 Speaker 1: and not actually fullifol of that standard. Right, you didn't 195 00:11:16,924 --> 00:11:20,444 Speaker 1: say it knowing that you were blatantly saying something untrue. 196 00:11:20,924 --> 00:11:22,684 Speaker 1: I think at the time he probably thought that he 197 00:11:22,764 --> 00:11:23,884 Speaker 1: was saying something. 198 00:11:24,004 --> 00:11:24,564 Speaker 2: That was right. 199 00:11:24,604 --> 00:11:28,044 Speaker 1: Whether you know he was correct journalistically or not is 200 00:11:28,084 --> 00:11:31,404 Speaker 1: a different story. But going even further back, Nate, one 201 00:11:31,444 --> 00:11:35,244 Speaker 1: of the things that you said was that, you know, networks, 202 00:11:35,444 --> 00:11:40,084 Speaker 1: places like Disney are constantly way playing this calculus, right. 203 00:11:40,084 --> 00:11:42,164 Speaker 1: They don't want to get criticized, and they're trying to 204 00:11:42,204 --> 00:11:44,964 Speaker 1: figure out, like what do we do, how do we 205 00:11:45,564 --> 00:11:49,684 Speaker 1: sidestep that? And it's really interesting to me because I 206 00:11:49,684 --> 00:11:52,604 Speaker 1: think that all of the free speech attacks in the 207 00:11:52,684 --> 00:11:57,524 Speaker 1: United States have shown this kind of constant calculus, and 208 00:11:57,564 --> 00:12:00,404 Speaker 1: it's not always worked out the way that the person 209 00:12:00,604 --> 00:12:03,204 Speaker 1: thought it was. So I think this the oldest kind 210 00:12:03,204 --> 00:12:05,724 Speaker 1: of attack goes back to seventeen ninety eight with the 211 00:12:05,724 --> 00:12:10,644 Speaker 1: Sedition Act, right, And this was John Adams when he 212 00:12:10,724 --> 00:12:13,884 Speaker 1: basically said they were in a war with France. It 213 00:12:13,924 --> 00:12:17,164 Speaker 1: wasn't a declared war, and he wanted to silence media 214 00:12:17,204 --> 00:12:20,044 Speaker 1: critics of the government, and so he passed an act 215 00:12:20,044 --> 00:12:23,204 Speaker 1: that said it was unlawful to publish any quote, false, 216 00:12:23,324 --> 00:12:28,644 Speaker 1: scandalous and malicious writing against the government end quote. And 217 00:12:29,084 --> 00:12:33,164 Speaker 1: the measures were huge, fins up to two thousand dollars. 218 00:12:33,284 --> 00:12:35,044 Speaker 1: I mean, how much is that, I don't even know. 219 00:12:35,364 --> 00:12:39,084 Speaker 1: In seventeen ninety eight, like that's insane, two years in prison. 220 00:12:39,764 --> 00:12:42,884 Speaker 1: And so a lot of publications started censoring themselves. But 221 00:12:43,044 --> 00:12:47,244 Speaker 1: what ended up happening, and they actually used it very punitively. 222 00:12:47,564 --> 00:12:51,724 Speaker 1: They ended up sending people to jail. Several newspapers had 223 00:12:51,724 --> 00:12:55,804 Speaker 1: to shut down. But what ended up happening was that 224 00:12:55,884 --> 00:12:58,644 Speaker 1: there was a huge backlash against this right. This was 225 00:12:58,684 --> 00:13:02,004 Speaker 1: the end of the Federalists. Jefferson came to power on 226 00:13:02,244 --> 00:13:07,604 Speaker 1: like a huge wave of support, and even later the 227 00:13:07,964 --> 00:13:11,204 Speaker 1: Justice Samuel Chase of the Supreme Court, who had been 228 00:13:11,324 --> 00:13:15,804 Speaker 1: very pro Sedition Act, he was impeached for this. So 229 00:13:15,924 --> 00:13:20,204 Speaker 1: basically everyone was galvanized against it. So it ended up 230 00:13:20,804 --> 00:13:25,804 Speaker 1: just having a huge, huge backlash to that. Attempt to 231 00:13:25,884 --> 00:13:29,204 Speaker 1: stem free speech happened again during World War One with 232 00:13:29,284 --> 00:13:32,964 Speaker 1: Woodrow Wilson, who was a scholar who had actually defended 233 00:13:33,124 --> 00:13:36,764 Speaker 1: free speech, and he tried to get another Sedition Act. 234 00:13:36,964 --> 00:13:40,204 Speaker 1: Then we had McCarthyism in the fifties who tried to 235 00:13:40,204 --> 00:13:43,924 Speaker 1: bully journalists and do all of that that again big 236 00:13:44,644 --> 00:13:48,844 Speaker 1: backlash people did. The people who stood up to McCarthyism 237 00:13:48,884 --> 00:13:51,324 Speaker 1: have fared much better in the eyes of history than 238 00:13:51,364 --> 00:13:54,804 Speaker 1: the people like McCarthy himself. Then we've got New York 239 00:13:54,804 --> 00:13:58,204 Speaker 1: Times versus Sullivan. Then we get Richard Nixon, and so 240 00:13:58,284 --> 00:14:00,804 Speaker 1: it's very funny when you started saying that you think 241 00:14:00,804 --> 00:14:04,484 Speaker 1: the best kind of example is the Washington Post. I 242 00:14:04,564 --> 00:14:06,524 Speaker 1: thought you were going to go in a totally different direction, 243 00:14:06,684 --> 00:14:09,844 Speaker 1: because the other time that an FCC license was threatened 244 00:14:09,924 --> 00:14:12,924 Speaker 1: was against the Washington Post when they were trying to 245 00:14:12,964 --> 00:14:16,524 Speaker 1: publish the Pentagon Papers. They published them anyway, and obviously 246 00:14:16,604 --> 00:14:22,004 Speaker 1: they won that battle. But Nixon was probably, other than Trump, 247 00:14:22,044 --> 00:14:27,004 Speaker 1: the single most vindictive president against the media. He ousted 248 00:14:27,124 --> 00:14:31,404 Speaker 1: Stuart Lourie for an article that he wrote in nineteen 249 00:14:31,444 --> 00:14:34,364 Speaker 1: seventy one for the La Times, so he actually just 250 00:14:34,404 --> 00:14:38,604 Speaker 1: banned him from the White House. And you know, he 251 00:14:39,524 --> 00:14:43,044 Speaker 1: basically said that the press, whom he started calling the 252 00:14:43,044 --> 00:14:48,004 Speaker 1: media that comes from Nixon, was the enemy, and told 253 00:14:48,204 --> 00:14:52,964 Speaker 1: his Vice president Spiro Agnew, to constantly attack the media. 254 00:14:53,324 --> 00:14:57,084 Speaker 1: He referred to them as a small and unelected elite 255 00:14:57,644 --> 00:15:01,644 Speaker 1: and basically create a rift so that people wouldn't trust 256 00:15:02,644 --> 00:15:05,924 Speaker 1: the media. And he even threatened lawsuits if anyone used 257 00:15:06,084 --> 00:15:10,724 Speaker 1: tricky Dick in print, so that you know, it became 258 00:15:10,764 --> 00:15:14,324 Speaker 1: incredibly petty, and he did kind of this. Trump is 259 00:15:14,364 --> 00:15:16,884 Speaker 1: really taking a page out of his playbook in a way, 260 00:15:16,884 --> 00:15:22,364 Speaker 1: because he had the irs investigate tax returns by Seymour, 261 00:15:22,404 --> 00:15:26,764 Speaker 1: Hirsh and other journalists that the White House didn't really like. 262 00:15:27,244 --> 00:15:30,164 Speaker 1: And so the thing that I found that I thought 263 00:15:30,204 --> 00:15:35,564 Speaker 1: was the most ridiculous is this was pre Watergate, Gordon 264 00:15:35,644 --> 00:15:42,204 Speaker 1: Liddy and Howard Hunt discussed murdering a journalist, Jack Anderson, 265 00:15:42,444 --> 00:15:47,764 Speaker 1: like actually killing him, so that he would stop basically 266 00:15:48,004 --> 00:15:51,364 Speaker 1: the leaks that were damaging to Dixon into the administration 267 00:15:51,804 --> 00:15:56,564 Speaker 1: and stop any further criticism of the administration. They considered 268 00:15:56,564 --> 00:16:00,244 Speaker 1: things like putting LSD on his steering wheel so that 269 00:16:00,284 --> 00:16:03,404 Speaker 1: he would start hallucinating while driving his car and get 270 00:16:03,404 --> 00:16:05,404 Speaker 1: into a car crash, which isn't. 271 00:16:05,244 --> 00:16:07,804 Speaker 2: Free osc Yeah, exactly. 272 00:16:08,564 --> 00:16:12,364 Speaker 1: I don't think they realized how LSD. Yeah. Anyway, and 273 00:16:12,404 --> 00:16:14,404 Speaker 1: then Lyddy, this is a quote from Lyddy. He said, 274 00:16:14,404 --> 00:16:18,564 Speaker 1: I would have knifed him or broken his neck end quote. 275 00:16:19,044 --> 00:16:22,604 Speaker 1: So this is all to say that, you know, we 276 00:16:22,684 --> 00:16:25,404 Speaker 1: see these sorts of attacks in the past, and every 277 00:16:25,444 --> 00:16:27,924 Speaker 1: single time they have not worked out well, but every 278 00:16:27,964 --> 00:16:30,924 Speaker 1: single time the media has actually fought back. Right the 279 00:16:31,004 --> 00:16:36,124 Speaker 1: Washington Post published Pentagon papers, Laurie had a career in journalism, 280 00:16:36,164 --> 00:16:39,884 Speaker 1: like people would hire him after that, and Seymour Hirsch 281 00:16:39,964 --> 00:16:43,924 Speaker 1: obviously Pulitzer Prize, like all of these people are storied 282 00:16:44,124 --> 00:16:48,084 Speaker 1: journalists and people who had the support of the country. 283 00:16:48,484 --> 00:16:52,484 Speaker 1: And with Kimmel at the beginning, it was the first 284 00:16:52,524 --> 00:16:56,764 Speaker 1: time that an organization had gotten a threat from the 285 00:16:56,844 --> 00:16:59,684 Speaker 1: FCC and rather than saying no, fuck you, you know, 286 00:16:59,724 --> 00:17:03,324 Speaker 1: we're the media and this is freedom of press, said okay, okay, 287 00:17:03,404 --> 00:17:07,604 Speaker 1: we'll fire you until they didn't. So this is I 288 00:17:07,604 --> 00:17:10,644 Speaker 1: think a very interesting moment. But those historical precedents I 289 00:17:10,644 --> 00:17:14,044 Speaker 1: think are really interesting to keep in mind, especially because 290 00:17:14,084 --> 00:17:16,084 Speaker 1: they did not turn out well for the government. 291 00:17:17,364 --> 00:17:32,324 Speaker 3: And we'll be right back after this break. I think 292 00:17:32,324 --> 00:17:34,524 Speaker 3: with anything we're covering in today's age, you have to 293 00:17:34,524 --> 00:17:40,004 Speaker 3: be aware that most commentators have a bias towards thinking 294 00:17:41,364 --> 00:17:43,684 Speaker 3: history begins when their age eight, you know what I mean. 295 00:17:44,684 --> 00:17:47,324 Speaker 3: In the longer sweep of like how does this moment 296 00:17:47,324 --> 00:17:50,764 Speaker 3: in America relate to There's a lot of miles in 297 00:17:50,804 --> 00:17:53,044 Speaker 3: the sixties, right, the Civil War. I mean that, you know, 298 00:17:53,244 --> 00:17:55,444 Speaker 3: I think I think one has to be careful with 299 00:17:55,524 --> 00:17:58,764 Speaker 3: those comparisons, and it might be concerning enough that we 300 00:17:58,884 --> 00:18:02,404 Speaker 3: seem to be losing decades of progress. 301 00:18:01,484 --> 00:18:02,844 Speaker 2: On some issues, right, yep. 302 00:18:04,524 --> 00:18:06,204 Speaker 3: I mean there was the other president, which is you know, 303 00:18:06,804 --> 00:18:11,004 Speaker 3: do you know who Jimmy Kimmel. 304 00:18:09,604 --> 00:18:10,204 Speaker 2: Used on ABC. 305 00:18:11,724 --> 00:18:17,044 Speaker 4: I don't remember Bill Maher because Bill Maher's politically incorrect 306 00:18:17,564 --> 00:18:21,284 Speaker 4: got canceled because he said the nine to eleven terrorists 307 00:18:21,724 --> 00:18:23,124 Speaker 4: were courageous and we. 308 00:18:23,004 --> 00:18:27,644 Speaker 3: Are not lobbying cruise missiles from thousands of miles away, right. 309 00:18:27,884 --> 00:18:32,964 Speaker 3: He said that like seven days after nine eleven. It 310 00:18:33,084 --> 00:18:35,764 Speaker 3: was litigated in the press for a much longer time. 311 00:18:35,884 --> 00:18:38,324 Speaker 2: Eventually his show was. 312 00:18:39,964 --> 00:18:42,044 Speaker 3: Let lapse, and then he went to HBO and I'm 313 00:18:42,084 --> 00:18:44,884 Speaker 3: sure made lots of money and became more than ye 314 00:18:45,324 --> 00:18:48,044 Speaker 3: you know, part of cancelation. And now I want to 315 00:18:48,044 --> 00:18:51,124 Speaker 3: be clear, I thought that their cancel culture was a 316 00:18:51,164 --> 00:18:54,844 Speaker 3: thing that liberals I call them progressives because it's a 317 00:18:54,884 --> 00:19:02,444 Speaker 3: very illiberal attitude, right, that progressives really were bloodthirsty for 318 00:19:02,684 --> 00:19:04,484 Speaker 3: a number of years kind of picking in the year 319 00:19:04,564 --> 00:19:07,044 Speaker 3: twenty twenty or so, I thought it was an embarrassment 320 00:19:07,044 --> 00:19:09,364 Speaker 3: to the liberal tradition of free speech. I think there 321 00:19:09,444 --> 00:19:12,924 Speaker 3: hetty and jealous, and they don't understand how in a 322 00:19:13,084 --> 00:19:16,364 Speaker 3: relatively free country that when you suppress speech, it usually 323 00:19:16,364 --> 00:19:19,404 Speaker 3: only makes it more compelling and like and more powerful. Right, 324 00:19:19,924 --> 00:19:22,444 Speaker 3: And they thought they could contain the information ecosystem. 325 00:19:22,604 --> 00:19:24,044 Speaker 2: They accomplished nothing that they wanted. 326 00:19:24,284 --> 00:19:30,564 Speaker 3: And you know, they have direct moral responsibility for contributing 327 00:19:30,604 --> 00:19:34,564 Speaker 3: to a climate in which free speech is compromised. With 328 00:19:34,564 --> 00:19:36,924 Speaker 3: that said, Maria, as you said, people have always been 329 00:19:37,044 --> 00:19:43,844 Speaker 3: hypocritical about free speech. The definition's always been contingent and 330 00:19:43,924 --> 00:19:49,164 Speaker 3: evolving in practice, right. And so you know, if you 331 00:19:49,484 --> 00:19:52,044 Speaker 3: were around for September eleventh when Bill mahrg got canceled, 332 00:19:52,084 --> 00:19:54,924 Speaker 3: the Dixie Chicks and Phil Donahue and and other you 333 00:19:54,964 --> 00:19:57,764 Speaker 3: know people, you know you're not like, you're not surprised 334 00:19:57,844 --> 00:19:59,804 Speaker 3: very much by by any of this. 335 00:20:00,044 --> 00:20:02,684 Speaker 2: And now if I'm Trump, now it's my turn. Now 336 00:20:02,684 --> 00:20:03,284 Speaker 2: it's my turn. 337 00:20:03,524 --> 00:20:05,844 Speaker 3: And I felt, I think justifiably, there was a lot 338 00:20:05,884 --> 00:20:08,604 Speaker 3: of bullshit from progressives when they were in power, right, 339 00:20:08,684 --> 00:20:11,124 Speaker 3: and we went rever right and by the way, I 340 00:20:11,124 --> 00:20:13,964 Speaker 3: don't think progressives have often stood up for like the 341 00:20:14,044 --> 00:20:18,404 Speaker 3: higher minded principles either, right, they don't think like good 342 00:20:18,404 --> 00:20:21,604 Speaker 3: poker players, where it's like, okay, what is the equilibrium 343 00:20:21,644 --> 00:20:24,244 Speaker 3: If everybody adopts this attitude, it's kind of contient, like 344 00:20:24,284 --> 00:20:27,084 Speaker 3: the golden rule, right, have decided to get along, if 345 00:20:27,124 --> 00:20:29,084 Speaker 3: you know, literally just put yourself in the person's shoes 346 00:20:29,124 --> 00:20:31,364 Speaker 3: and say, eventually your public is going to win back 347 00:20:31,404 --> 00:20:33,084 Speaker 3: in office. And by the way, eventually we'll be a 348 00:20:33,084 --> 00:20:35,484 Speaker 3: Democrat back in office, maybe in in I guess for 349 00:20:35,484 --> 00:20:37,244 Speaker 3: early in Trump term three and a half years, right, 350 00:20:37,764 --> 00:20:40,964 Speaker 3: you know, turnabout will be fair play then, But like 351 00:20:41,444 --> 00:20:43,444 Speaker 3: perpetually you're losing it. 352 00:20:44,124 --> 00:20:48,764 Speaker 1: No, I think that we forget that. We forget that 353 00:20:49,164 --> 00:20:53,644 Speaker 1: free speech was created to protect speech we don't like, 354 00:20:54,164 --> 00:20:57,204 Speaker 1: but not speech that we agree with. People forget this 355 00:20:57,364 --> 00:20:59,524 Speaker 1: all the time. They're like, yes, free speech. Wait, you 356 00:20:59,564 --> 00:21:02,684 Speaker 1: said something that I disagree with. You can't say that. 357 00:21:02,964 --> 00:21:06,004 Speaker 1: And we've said this on the show before, and you know, 358 00:21:06,244 --> 00:21:09,484 Speaker 1: I don't want to constantly give you history lessons, but 359 00:21:09,564 --> 00:21:13,484 Speaker 1: remember we talked about Skochie, Illinois, Nate and kind of 360 00:21:13,724 --> 00:21:16,644 Speaker 1: and the ACLU on this show before. For people who 361 00:21:16,644 --> 00:21:20,444 Speaker 1: missed that episode. I was basically kind of a case 362 00:21:20,564 --> 00:21:24,964 Speaker 1: that went to the Supreme Court that involved letting neo 363 00:21:25,044 --> 00:21:29,204 Speaker 1: Nazis march in a Jewish in a predominantly Jewish community, 364 00:21:29,444 --> 00:21:31,444 Speaker 1: and the ACL you took it on, and I remember, 365 00:21:31,604 --> 00:21:35,524 Speaker 1: I still remember learning about that and being like, holy shit, 366 00:21:35,804 --> 00:21:38,484 Speaker 1: Like fuck those guys. But yes, like you have to 367 00:21:38,524 --> 00:21:42,284 Speaker 1: protect the speech that you most disagree with, because that's 368 00:21:42,404 --> 00:21:45,524 Speaker 1: the whole point, right, that is what free speech means. 369 00:21:45,804 --> 00:21:48,284 Speaker 1: It means that we can disagree. It means that we 370 00:21:48,284 --> 00:21:51,284 Speaker 1: can have civil discourse. It means that we can all 371 00:21:51,564 --> 00:21:54,684 Speaker 1: have all of these different ideas, and it's okay. So 372 00:21:54,924 --> 00:21:57,924 Speaker 1: I actually nate agree with you that, you know, the 373 00:21:58,044 --> 00:22:00,204 Speaker 1: liberals went way too far. I think this was the 374 00:22:00,244 --> 00:22:02,444 Speaker 1: case in academia, you know. I think this was the 375 00:22:02,444 --> 00:22:06,924 Speaker 1: case at my alma mater, Harvard, where certain professors lost 376 00:22:06,924 --> 00:22:10,484 Speaker 1: their jobs right for I was saying idea, you know, 377 00:22:10,564 --> 00:22:14,804 Speaker 1: for engaging in research that was not politically correct, and 378 00:22:15,044 --> 00:22:18,524 Speaker 1: that's not what academia is about. As long as you 379 00:22:18,724 --> 00:22:22,324 Speaker 1: are not academically dishonest, as long as you're actually kind 380 00:22:22,364 --> 00:22:26,284 Speaker 1: of trying to figure out what the truth is, you know, 381 00:22:26,324 --> 00:22:29,244 Speaker 1: you're allowed to hold different opinions. But I think that 382 00:22:29,804 --> 00:22:32,924 Speaker 1: as you say, this isn't like we've devolved, like this 383 00:22:32,964 --> 00:22:36,124 Speaker 1: is horrifying, like that this is now the spiral right, 384 00:22:36,204 --> 00:22:39,164 Speaker 1: and instead you need to kind of reset and go 385 00:22:39,284 --> 00:22:41,964 Speaker 1: back to those first principles and say, Okay, you know, 386 00:22:42,204 --> 00:22:45,004 Speaker 1: free speech, we're for it. The Supreme Court has to 387 00:22:45,044 --> 00:22:49,004 Speaker 1: say this country is for free speech, and the FCC 388 00:22:49,244 --> 00:22:53,044 Speaker 1: can't be threatening licenses because of something somebody said that 389 00:22:53,084 --> 00:22:55,644 Speaker 1: they don't like, and we can't be in a climate, 390 00:22:55,724 --> 00:22:58,284 Speaker 1: you know. After that, Trump doubled down and said, yeah, 391 00:22:58,324 --> 00:23:01,004 Speaker 1: you know, you shouldn't criticize the president. If we don't 392 00:23:01,044 --> 00:23:03,524 Speaker 1: like you or you say something bad about me, there 393 00:23:03,524 --> 00:23:05,964 Speaker 1: are going to be consequences. I mean, it's insane right 394 00:23:06,004 --> 00:23:08,484 Speaker 1: for a president to say that, But we're at the 395 00:23:08,484 --> 00:23:10,724 Speaker 1: point where people there are a lot of people who 396 00:23:10,724 --> 00:23:13,044 Speaker 1: don't think it's insane and who are like, yeah, serves 397 00:23:13,044 --> 00:23:16,884 Speaker 1: you right, you shouldn't criticize the president. And the funniest 398 00:23:16,924 --> 00:23:23,284 Speaker 1: thing is what has prompted this whole conversation is the 399 00:23:23,364 --> 00:23:26,284 Speaker 1: death of Charlie Kirk, who I think, you know, I 400 00:23:26,324 --> 00:23:29,164 Speaker 1: didn't know him and I didn't know much about him 401 00:23:29,244 --> 00:23:32,404 Speaker 1: until he died. To be perfectly honest, But I think 402 00:23:32,444 --> 00:23:35,684 Speaker 1: he would be someone who actually would be opposed to 403 00:23:36,444 --> 00:23:38,604 Speaker 1: all of this because he was a proponent of free speech. 404 00:23:40,044 --> 00:23:42,524 Speaker 3: No, and you know a lot of these videos have 405 00:23:42,564 --> 00:23:46,444 Speaker 3: circulated on social media of him, like debating on college 406 00:23:46,484 --> 00:23:48,364 Speaker 3: campus is kind of like his big thing, and like, 407 00:23:48,964 --> 00:23:53,204 Speaker 3: you know, he he was good at that. And the 408 00:23:53,204 --> 00:23:55,364 Speaker 3: whole idea was it's an open for him, come debate me, 409 00:23:56,204 --> 00:23:58,724 Speaker 3: bro right, and like here, I'll get myself in trouble 410 00:23:58,724 --> 00:24:01,404 Speaker 3: with probably only a very small fraction or audience. Right, 411 00:24:01,564 --> 00:24:05,284 Speaker 3: you know, there aren't that many I don't think super 412 00:24:05,364 --> 00:24:13,484 Speaker 3: eloquent spokespeople for the Trumpian movement. Okay, and yet half 413 00:24:13,524 --> 00:24:17,244 Speaker 3: the country forty nine point nine percent, he won the 414 00:24:17,284 --> 00:24:20,084 Speaker 3: popular vote. You know, half the country voted for it 415 00:24:20,684 --> 00:24:24,164 Speaker 3: last time. And like and like, you know, you have 416 00:24:24,244 --> 00:24:29,204 Speaker 3: to live in that world. And if you're not going to, like, 417 00:24:29,924 --> 00:24:32,924 Speaker 3: you know, give a platform to Ben Shapiro or Charlie kan, 418 00:24:32,964 --> 00:24:34,204 Speaker 3: who the fuck are you going to give a plat 419 00:24:34,484 --> 00:24:36,444 Speaker 3: form too? You know what I mean, you have to 420 00:24:36,444 --> 00:24:38,764 Speaker 3: be willing to have you know, again, I believe in 421 00:24:38,804 --> 00:24:40,844 Speaker 3: speech broadly, not I just don't think of speech as 422 00:24:40,844 --> 00:24:42,884 Speaker 3: the free amendment. But I believe in like we have 423 00:24:42,964 --> 00:24:45,804 Speaker 3: to have a more tolerant tolerance is a word I 424 00:24:45,804 --> 00:24:51,604 Speaker 3: would use, right, A more tolerant ecosystem for disagreement. 425 00:24:52,204 --> 00:24:55,604 Speaker 1: Absolutely more tolerant. And I would also say kinder right 426 00:24:55,644 --> 00:25:01,484 Speaker 1: where your knee jerk reaction isn't like fuck this person. 427 00:25:01,764 --> 00:25:04,764 Speaker 1: But okay, you know this doesn't sound right to me, 428 00:25:05,924 --> 00:25:09,244 Speaker 1: But where are you coming from? Like to try to understand, 429 00:25:09,604 --> 00:25:12,524 Speaker 1: to at least try to come from a place of 430 00:25:12,604 --> 00:25:15,804 Speaker 1: kindness and not a place of pitchforks, and like, let's 431 00:25:15,804 --> 00:25:19,164 Speaker 1: burn you down, which is I think, you know, to 432 00:25:19,204 --> 00:25:21,964 Speaker 1: bring this back to Kimmel, which is I think the 433 00:25:22,084 --> 00:25:25,924 Speaker 1: natural end of all of this rhetoric is, you know, 434 00:25:25,964 --> 00:25:29,364 Speaker 1: we're going to burn you down, and we're going to 435 00:25:29,484 --> 00:25:32,764 Speaker 1: remove you from the air, and we're going to threaten 436 00:25:33,084 --> 00:25:36,204 Speaker 1: the license of your parent company, and we're going to 437 00:25:36,284 --> 00:25:39,604 Speaker 1: show you whose boss. And as you started off you 438 00:25:39,644 --> 00:25:43,564 Speaker 1: know the segment by saying, Nate, you know, this is 439 00:25:44,244 --> 00:25:47,484 Speaker 1: authoritarianism with a capital A one oh one, right, Like 440 00:25:47,644 --> 00:25:50,524 Speaker 1: this is the playbook? Like this is what you do 441 00:25:51,124 --> 00:25:54,844 Speaker 1: is you take opposition, You take things that you don't 442 00:25:54,884 --> 00:25:59,644 Speaker 1: agree with, and instead of tolerating them having discourse, you 443 00:25:59,764 --> 00:26:03,044 Speaker 1: just remove it, you say no, and then you remove 444 00:26:03,044 --> 00:26:06,524 Speaker 1: the people and next step jail right like that, that's 445 00:26:06,564 --> 00:26:09,764 Speaker 1: what happens. Next you start jailing the journalist. You don't 446 00:26:09,804 --> 00:26:12,244 Speaker 1: just remove them from air. And this has happened in 447 00:26:12,284 --> 00:26:14,924 Speaker 1: the United States before, and we had come a long 448 00:26:15,044 --> 00:26:17,884 Speaker 1: long way since then, and now it seems like we're 449 00:26:17,884 --> 00:26:21,444 Speaker 1: devolving again. The United States has been falling right on 450 00:26:21,644 --> 00:26:25,684 Speaker 1: all of the rankings of freedom of press and freedom 451 00:26:25,724 --> 00:26:29,204 Speaker 1: of society, all of those global rankings. All of a sudden, 452 00:26:29,244 --> 00:26:31,844 Speaker 1: the United States has gone from being a leader to 453 00:26:32,724 --> 00:26:35,044 Speaker 1: you know, in some cases, falling out of the top ten. 454 00:26:35,084 --> 00:26:39,804 Speaker 1: And that's not where you want to be going. We'll 455 00:26:39,804 --> 00:26:51,124 Speaker 1: be back right after this. Like I said, we're taping 456 00:26:51,164 --> 00:26:54,284 Speaker 1: this on Monday, and I'm very curious to know what 457 00:26:54,884 --> 00:26:57,844 Speaker 1: Kimmel is going to sound like when he comes on 458 00:26:57,964 --> 00:27:00,604 Speaker 1: the air, because there's also, as we talked about last 459 00:27:00,644 --> 00:27:04,204 Speaker 1: week Nate chilling effects right and self censorship, and you 460 00:27:04,284 --> 00:27:07,364 Speaker 1: can imagine a future where people are like, Okay, well, 461 00:27:07,404 --> 00:27:09,524 Speaker 1: I'm just going to tread really lightly and not talk 462 00:27:09,524 --> 00:27:13,124 Speaker 1: about certain people and not talk about certain topics and 463 00:27:13,404 --> 00:27:17,044 Speaker 1: engage in self censorship, which people have been doing for 464 00:27:17,084 --> 00:27:19,964 Speaker 1: a number of years. And I think that happened with 465 00:27:20,564 --> 00:27:24,004 Speaker 1: the first wave of actual cancel culture. I just I 466 00:27:24,084 --> 00:27:26,884 Speaker 1: keep wanting to stress that the Kimmel thing is different 467 00:27:26,884 --> 00:27:31,084 Speaker 1: because it was coming from the FCC. So that's censorship. 468 00:27:31,124 --> 00:27:33,564 Speaker 1: That's media censorship, which is a very different thing. 469 00:27:34,044 --> 00:27:39,204 Speaker 3: It's different. I mean there are you know, different does 470 00:27:39,244 --> 00:27:44,404 Speaker 3: not necessarily mean worse or better. I mean, I feel 471 00:27:44,404 --> 00:27:45,044 Speaker 3: like people are like. 472 00:27:45,084 --> 00:27:47,764 Speaker 1: In this case, I think it means worse. I understand 473 00:27:47,804 --> 00:27:50,324 Speaker 1: that word does not, but I think government censorship is 474 00:27:50,364 --> 00:27:53,404 Speaker 1: worse than well. 475 00:27:52,484 --> 00:27:56,964 Speaker 3: I kind of believe in the fourth estate in a 476 00:27:57,004 --> 00:28:03,404 Speaker 3: sense of like media both kind of upper highbrow media 477 00:28:03,524 --> 00:28:06,324 Speaker 3: meaning like the New York Times and publications like that, 478 00:28:06,364 --> 00:28:08,884 Speaker 3: and kind of lower media like mass entertainment. Like you know, 479 00:28:09,004 --> 00:28:13,044 Speaker 3: they have a lot of shared cultural powers, like I don't. 480 00:28:13,084 --> 00:28:16,724 Speaker 3: I think they're equal to a branch of government de 481 00:28:16,844 --> 00:28:18,364 Speaker 3: facto in terms of the amount of power they have 482 00:28:18,404 --> 00:28:21,644 Speaker 3: and when they act in unison, right, when you organize 483 00:28:21,644 --> 00:28:25,164 Speaker 3: attemps to cancel people that may originate, you know, from 484 00:28:25,244 --> 00:28:29,124 Speaker 3: progressive to now them a livelihood, like I I it's different. 485 00:28:29,484 --> 00:28:31,404 Speaker 2: It's probably less capital a authoritarian. 486 00:28:31,724 --> 00:28:35,924 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also awful, Like I I'm not I'm not 487 00:28:35,964 --> 00:28:38,244 Speaker 1: trying to say anything nice about the Jeff Bezoss of 488 00:28:38,244 --> 00:28:41,204 Speaker 1: the world. Don't get me wrong, I think that it's 489 00:28:41,484 --> 00:28:43,044 Speaker 1: really scary on that level too. 490 00:28:43,564 --> 00:28:46,924 Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, I would like to see more liberals, 491 00:28:47,044 --> 00:28:48,844 Speaker 3: especially they want to have the moral hot ground. If 492 00:28:48,884 --> 00:28:53,204 Speaker 3: progressors want to say, we're just in a fucking wrestling 493 00:28:53,284 --> 00:28:57,204 Speaker 3: match with the GOP and will win through not brute force, 494 00:28:57,284 --> 00:28:59,844 Speaker 3: but will win a maybe we're we think we're smarter, 495 00:29:00,004 --> 00:29:03,564 Speaker 3: will win a tactically battle or whatever else. Right, you know, 496 00:29:03,644 --> 00:29:06,244 Speaker 3: I would like to say I've seen a couple like 497 00:29:06,244 --> 00:29:08,684 Speaker 3: Abby Phillip, who was an anchor on CNN right, had 498 00:29:08,684 --> 00:29:09,564 Speaker 3: a good segment about this. 499 00:29:09,684 --> 00:29:11,724 Speaker 2: But like, I would like to see more liberals say 500 00:29:12,164 --> 00:29:12,964 Speaker 2: we fucked. 501 00:29:12,764 --> 00:29:18,404 Speaker 3: Up, right, we fucked up by abandoning free speech as 502 00:29:18,404 --> 00:29:20,644 Speaker 3: a principle, by pretending. You know, all these people that 503 00:29:20,724 --> 00:29:22,724 Speaker 3: do the cancel and they never have any heterodox quote 504 00:29:22,764 --> 00:29:25,804 Speaker 3: unquote opinions themselves, right, they always like have tuikie cutter 505 00:29:26,164 --> 00:29:28,244 Speaker 3: opinions because they're not Actually, I mean, I don't like 506 00:29:28,284 --> 00:29:31,484 Speaker 3: these people, so I'm not going to say anything overly generous, right, 507 00:29:31,604 --> 00:29:33,684 Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of people formulate their 508 00:29:33,684 --> 00:29:35,604 Speaker 3: political beliefs because of pure pressure. 509 00:29:35,804 --> 00:29:35,964 Speaker 4: Right. 510 00:29:36,324 --> 00:29:39,484 Speaker 3: And one of the problems with journalism and kind of 511 00:29:39,484 --> 00:29:42,204 Speaker 3: the liberal academy more broadly is like, and that includes 512 00:29:42,204 --> 00:29:45,364 Speaker 3: a lot of fucking lonely souls who who are looking 513 00:29:45,404 --> 00:29:48,284 Speaker 3: to be joiners, right, And I'm I'm against that, you know. 514 00:29:48,364 --> 00:29:51,524 Speaker 3: I think if you've never pissed an audience off or 515 00:29:51,564 --> 00:29:53,804 Speaker 3: your own audience off, then like, how can you have 516 00:29:53,924 --> 00:29:56,204 Speaker 3: lived in a very complicated world like we live in 517 00:29:56,284 --> 00:29:59,524 Speaker 3: for you know, decades and not at some point had 518 00:29:59,564 --> 00:30:01,164 Speaker 3: an opinion that differed from your tribe? 519 00:30:01,244 --> 00:30:03,684 Speaker 2: Right? You know, that's totally fine if you each want 520 00:30:03,684 --> 00:30:05,084 Speaker 2: to go in like and open a. 521 00:30:05,124 --> 00:30:09,124 Speaker 3: Nice little you know, pasta restaurant or something and get 522 00:30:09,124 --> 00:30:10,164 Speaker 3: along with your customers. 523 00:30:10,204 --> 00:30:10,364 Speaker 2: Right. 524 00:30:10,404 --> 00:30:13,044 Speaker 3: But if you're a political commentator and you've never said 525 00:30:13,044 --> 00:30:15,924 Speaker 3: anything that pisses someone off, then you are fucking like 526 00:30:16,164 --> 00:30:18,644 Speaker 3: terrible at your job. You shouldn't be canceled scent upliveing cancelation. 527 00:30:18,804 --> 00:30:18,924 Speaker 2: Right. 528 00:30:18,924 --> 00:30:21,244 Speaker 3: But like, but you just tell that you don't have 529 00:30:21,284 --> 00:30:23,684 Speaker 3: any independent minded opinions and if you always align with 530 00:30:23,684 --> 00:30:26,604 Speaker 3: one party, the parties are these weird monstrosities. It's like 531 00:30:26,644 --> 00:30:29,284 Speaker 3: saying I think that like PEPSI coo everything that It's 532 00:30:29,284 --> 00:30:31,524 Speaker 3: like being a fanily of like PepsiCo or Coca Cola 533 00:30:31,764 --> 00:30:35,124 Speaker 3: or something. Right, Like, everything this gigantic, faciless corporation makes 534 00:30:35,204 --> 00:30:37,244 Speaker 3: is the best thing on earth. Right, It's you know, 535 00:30:37,284 --> 00:30:40,164 Speaker 3: that's what the political parties are. They're these kind of mediocre, 536 00:30:40,284 --> 00:30:43,004 Speaker 3: gigantic brands that are trying to cater to the mass 537 00:30:43,004 --> 00:30:45,324 Speaker 3: consumer and are pretty darn good at it. 538 00:30:45,404 --> 00:30:45,564 Speaker 2: Right. 539 00:30:45,604 --> 00:30:47,524 Speaker 3: But like, but you're just being a fanboy if you're 540 00:30:47,564 --> 00:30:49,644 Speaker 3: always on the always advocating the party line. 541 00:30:49,844 --> 00:30:53,404 Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, absolutely, you're being a brown spokesperson. I think 542 00:30:53,484 --> 00:30:57,804 Speaker 1: actually the the uh tie that you made to like 543 00:30:57,924 --> 00:30:59,684 Speaker 1: coke or Pepsi or something like that is a really 544 00:30:59,724 --> 00:31:02,084 Speaker 1: good one. Right, You're just being a brand spokesperson for 545 00:31:02,884 --> 00:31:05,804 Speaker 1: the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. And this is 546 00:31:05,844 --> 00:31:07,764 Speaker 1: why this is something that you and I talk about 547 00:31:07,804 --> 00:31:10,124 Speaker 1: on the show frequently. I don't think either one of 548 00:31:10,204 --> 00:31:13,884 Speaker 1: us likes the two party system. One of the main 549 00:31:13,924 --> 00:31:17,324 Speaker 1: problems I have with it is that it discourages independent thinking. 550 00:31:17,564 --> 00:31:17,764 Speaker 2: Right. 551 00:31:17,804 --> 00:31:20,164 Speaker 1: Too many people are like, oh, i'm a this, I'm 552 00:31:20,164 --> 00:31:21,924 Speaker 1: a that you apply the label and then you figure 553 00:31:21,924 --> 00:31:25,244 Speaker 1: out what do I think based on that, not what 554 00:31:25,284 --> 00:31:27,604 Speaker 1: do I think? Therefore, what do you know who do 555 00:31:27,684 --> 00:31:30,164 Speaker 1: I support people don't get that granular, or of course 556 00:31:30,164 --> 00:31:33,164 Speaker 1: some people do. But that kind of critical independent thinking 557 00:31:33,244 --> 00:31:36,524 Speaker 1: is something that we should be encouraging, we should be fostering. 558 00:31:36,764 --> 00:31:40,044 Speaker 1: We should be creating a culture where people are rewarded 559 00:31:40,364 --> 00:31:43,324 Speaker 1: for heterodoxy, not for its own sake, but just for 560 00:31:43,444 --> 00:31:47,324 Speaker 1: having their own mind and for being able to say 561 00:31:47,364 --> 00:31:51,244 Speaker 1: what they think. And there are you know, you can agree, 562 00:31:51,324 --> 00:31:54,684 Speaker 1: you can disagree, but yeah, we should be living in 563 00:31:54,684 --> 00:31:57,884 Speaker 1: a society where people think for themselves. And this is 564 00:31:58,604 --> 00:32:02,244 Speaker 1: something that both parties are absolutely to blame for, and 565 00:32:02,284 --> 00:32:04,084 Speaker 1: we are not in a good place right now. So 566 00:32:04,164 --> 00:32:07,524 Speaker 1: I really hope that everyone comes to their senses, including 567 00:32:07,524 --> 00:32:12,004 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, that we actually start supporting free speech 568 00:32:12,084 --> 00:32:15,364 Speaker 1: and what it actually means right, which means that Jimmy 569 00:32:15,444 --> 00:32:18,684 Speaker 1: Kimmel could have fucked up something that he said and 570 00:32:18,724 --> 00:32:23,564 Speaker 1: then said, oh, you know, this wasn't actually true, and 571 00:32:23,604 --> 00:32:26,724 Speaker 1: he wasn't removed from the air. It's kind of that 572 00:32:27,284 --> 00:32:30,844 Speaker 1: sort of a culture, as opposed to one where we 573 00:32:30,884 --> 00:32:36,404 Speaker 1: start getting threats and trying to strong arm people into 574 00:32:37,204 --> 00:32:39,884 Speaker 1: cow towing whatever the party line happens to be right, 575 00:32:39,924 --> 00:32:43,604 Speaker 1: which could be liberal and it could be Republican and 576 00:32:43,724 --> 00:32:47,364 Speaker 1: it could be either one. I think that that's such 577 00:32:47,404 --> 00:32:50,924 Speaker 1: an incredibly dangerous moment. It really does bring me back 578 00:32:50,964 --> 00:32:53,084 Speaker 1: to the Soviet Union and that is not a good feeling. 579 00:32:53,844 --> 00:32:57,084 Speaker 2: Yeah, and usould create more sigma for cowardice. 580 00:32:57,124 --> 00:32:58,884 Speaker 3: I mean, you know there were some people like in 581 00:32:58,924 --> 00:33:00,804 Speaker 3: the whole Charlie kirk Kimmel thing, I mean, like you 582 00:33:00,804 --> 00:33:03,004 Speaker 3: know Ted Cruz of all people. 583 00:33:03,564 --> 00:33:05,884 Speaker 1: Oh, I was about to say I actually agreed with 584 00:33:06,004 --> 00:33:07,804 Speaker 1: Ted Cruz for once in my life. I was like, 585 00:33:07,804 --> 00:33:10,644 Speaker 1: what is happening, Ted, Crew? Like this is bad? 586 00:33:11,724 --> 00:33:13,764 Speaker 3: You probably are more familiar with the research on this, right, 587 00:33:13,764 --> 00:33:16,924 Speaker 3: But like when when a small number of people who 588 00:33:17,004 --> 00:33:21,884 Speaker 3: are influential or actually have something to lose, right when 589 00:33:21,924 --> 00:33:25,084 Speaker 3: they speak up. You know, even Michael Eisner, the former 590 00:33:25,324 --> 00:33:29,604 Speaker 3: CEO of Disney, I don't know if he's a friend 591 00:33:29,604 --> 00:33:31,404 Speaker 3: of me with Bob byker or right, but he said, 592 00:33:31,404 --> 00:33:32,324 Speaker 3: what the fuck are you doing? 593 00:33:32,444 --> 00:33:32,684 Speaker 2: Bob? 594 00:33:32,804 --> 00:33:35,724 Speaker 3: Right, And like, I'm sure that's you know, Disney's company, 595 00:33:35,724 --> 00:33:38,204 Speaker 3: where people are usually pretty nice, right, And so that 596 00:33:38,284 --> 00:33:40,524 Speaker 3: might have had an influence too, Right. 597 00:33:41,204 --> 00:33:43,484 Speaker 1: Yes, there's a lot of research on that night. It's 598 00:33:43,524 --> 00:33:45,764 Speaker 1: a very good point, and yes, all it takes is 599 00:33:46,004 --> 00:33:49,244 Speaker 1: one even just one influential voice, and that can completely 600 00:33:49,364 --> 00:33:52,764 Speaker 1: change the dynamic and what people feel empowered to say 601 00:33:52,884 --> 00:33:55,124 Speaker 1: or do. But this is a really interesting topic and 602 00:33:55,164 --> 00:33:58,404 Speaker 1: I think one that we are going to keep revisiting 603 00:33:58,444 --> 00:34:01,244 Speaker 1: on this show. And I hope Nate that our show 604 00:34:01,284 --> 00:34:04,124 Speaker 1: is still on the air even if we say something 605 00:34:04,204 --> 00:34:05,924 Speaker 1: that you know, the FCC might not like. 606 00:34:07,004 --> 00:34:09,644 Speaker 2: What's your most cancelable opinion? See, that's like a question 607 00:34:09,684 --> 00:34:10,204 Speaker 2: you can answer. 608 00:34:11,084 --> 00:34:13,364 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's come back to that. I think that'll 609 00:34:13,364 --> 00:34:16,524 Speaker 1: be an interesting and interesting segment. No, I actually I 610 00:34:16,564 --> 00:34:18,244 Speaker 1: think that that is an interesting segment. 611 00:34:18,364 --> 00:34:19,604 Speaker 2: What's the most cansful opinion? 612 00:34:19,644 --> 00:34:22,564 Speaker 3: That It's like, it's actually your seventh most canceful opinion 613 00:34:22,564 --> 00:34:23,564 Speaker 3: probably you know what I. 614 00:34:23,444 --> 00:34:24,964 Speaker 2: Mean, right right? 615 00:34:24,964 --> 00:34:26,764 Speaker 1: You have to do the game theory of that and 616 00:34:27,124 --> 00:34:28,204 Speaker 1: you have to play that out. 617 00:34:29,364 --> 00:34:29,644 Speaker 2: Well. 618 00:34:30,164 --> 00:34:33,884 Speaker 1: We hope you feel more educated about free speech, which 619 00:34:33,924 --> 00:34:36,804 Speaker 1: is something that really is core to risky business and 620 00:34:36,804 --> 00:34:39,604 Speaker 1: to our ability to have this show, and to me 621 00:34:39,884 --> 00:34:43,924 Speaker 1: as an ex Soviet immigrant, it's something near and dear 622 00:34:43,964 --> 00:34:47,204 Speaker 1: to my heart. So good luck, Jimmy Kimmel. I hope 623 00:34:47,204 --> 00:34:48,924 Speaker 1: that your return to the air was a good one. 624 00:34:54,604 --> 00:34:56,364 Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show reach 625 00:34:56,444 --> 00:35:00,244 Speaker 1: out to Us at Risky Business at pushkin dot Fm. 626 00:35:00,404 --> 00:35:03,764 Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova and by. 627 00:35:03,644 --> 00:35:04,684 Speaker 2: Me Nate Silvery. 628 00:35:05,164 --> 00:35:08,804 Speaker 3: The show was a cool production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. 629 00:35:08,884 --> 00:35:12,204 Speaker 3: This episode was produced by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer 630 00:35:12,284 --> 00:35:16,044 Speaker 3: is Sonia gerwit Lydia, Jean Kott and daphnew Chen are 631 00:35:16,044 --> 00:35:19,284 Speaker 3: our editors, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. 632 00:35:19,764 --> 00:35:21,164 Speaker 2: Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 633 00:35:21,804 --> 00:35:24,004 Speaker 1: If you like this show, please rate and review us 634 00:35:24,044 --> 00:35:26,724 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too, but once again, 635 00:35:26,844 --> 00:35:28,644 Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want those bad 636 00:35:28,684 --> 00:35:30,884 Speaker 1: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.