WEBVTT - Jesus Christ Superstar (1973)

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<v Speaker 1>On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women

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<v Speaker 1>and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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<v Speaker 1>or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zephynbast start changing

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<v Speaker 1>with the Bechdelcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Jamie and Caitlin here, we're going on tour, and we're

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<v Speaker 2>not going on tour just anywhere. We're going on tour

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<v Speaker 2>in the Midwest and soon covering the Star Wars prequels.

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<v Speaker 2>We're gonna just cover all three at once. You know

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<v Speaker 2>it's gonna be fine. There's been so much talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the prequels over the years, often on podcasts we really like,

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<v Speaker 2>often by writers we really like, but never from an

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<v Speaker 2>intersectional feminist perspective. And so we're going on this tour

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<v Speaker 2>to quickly realize why that is.

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<v Speaker 3>So you can see us discuss all three prequels in

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<v Speaker 3>one show in fabulous outfits, in wonderful coseplay. You don't

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<v Speaker 3>want to miss this. We will be in Indianapolis for

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<v Speaker 3>Let's Fest on Saturday, August thirtieth for a matinee show

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<v Speaker 3>and then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening

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<v Speaker 3>that can't be missed.

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<v Speaker 2>Called Jamie Loftus and her pet rock solve the world's

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<v Speaker 2>problems in which that will happen.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't wait.

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<v Speaker 2>Then the very next day, we are going to Chicago.

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<v Speaker 2>You asked, we listened. We will be at the Den

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<v Speaker 2>Theater on August thirty. First, that show is going to

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<v Speaker 2>start around seven, seven to fifteen pm. It's an evening show,

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<v Speaker 2>a sexy little evening show. We're so excited to go

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<v Speaker 2>to Chicago and the Den Theater is so beautiful, so

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<v Speaker 2>Chicagoans do not miss it.

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<v Speaker 3>And then then we will be in Madison, Wisconsin on Thursday,

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<v Speaker 3>September fourth. I believe that's a seven thirty show, and oh,

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<v Speaker 3>we're so excited to be in Madison.

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<v Speaker 2>And then finally we will be ending the tour in Minneapolis,

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<v Speaker 2>Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater on Sunday, September seventh.

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<v Speaker 2>That is another evening show. It starts at seven o'clock.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you have been one of the many people

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<v Speaker 2>asking us to come to your town for the last

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<v Speaker 2>ten years we're doing it, we would love to see you.

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<v Speaker 2>The shows are super fun. As we've said, if you're

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<v Speaker 2>a matron, specifically, if you're a member of our Patroon

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<v Speaker 2>aka Matreon. You get a free little gift at the

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<v Speaker 2>merch table when you come to say hi after the show.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a blast, It's gonna be a super good time.

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<v Speaker 2>We love Siena. You can get all tickets at link tree,

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<v Speaker 2>slash Bectel cast exqueeze me, We'll see you there.

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<v Speaker 3>Enjoy the episode. Cast Jamie christ superstart. Happy birthday, Jamie.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Wow, I'm feeling so christ Like today. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>feeling I'm feeling like I'm gonna like do unto others.

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<v Speaker 2>That's kind of the vibe for today. I know that

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<v Speaker 2>that's OK. He didn't say that, right, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>That's just the golden rule, which.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like, I feel like, you know, I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>he'd agree. Yeah, I'm sure he wouldn't be like, no,

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<v Speaker 2>nor do not do unto others? Okay, Welcome to my birthday.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to my birthday.

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<v Speaker 3>Happy to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm happy to be here too. I think maybe I

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<v Speaker 2>will actually succeed in going to Knotsberry Farm on my

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<v Speaker 2>birthday this year. We'll see I failed last year, but

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<v Speaker 2>maybe this is the year.

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<v Speaker 3>Can I invite myself? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Because you're a season pass holder, right, Yeah? Yeah, if

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<v Speaker 2>we are successful in going, Yeah, we should go with

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<v Speaker 2>a damn group because I haven't been in three years.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's my new favorite theme park.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so fun. It's so fun because the theming is

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<v Speaker 2>just like, sure, yeah, why not? I walk around and

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, hmmm, old timey ghost why not?

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<v Speaker 3>Of course?

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<v Speaker 2>I love it.

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<v Speaker 3>I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome. Okay, so this is my main feed birthday episode.

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<v Speaker 2>So if this is your first episode Wild points of Entry,

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<v Speaker 2>but for what it's worth, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 2>My name is Jamie, it's my birthday.

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<v Speaker 3>My name is Caitlin. It's not my birthday.

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<v Speaker 2>Brutal, brutal, and that must be hard for you today.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah what if I judas you because I'm resentful that

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<v Speaker 3>it's not my birthday.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, then you would be low key the coolest character

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<v Speaker 2>in the movie Superstar. It's really I will say, Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>Christ Superstar a very flawed movie. Will be talking about

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<v Speaker 2>it a lot today. But I feel like the movie

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<v Speaker 2>is basically like say what you will about Judas, but

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<v Speaker 2>he kind of is like the best. I feel like

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<v Speaker 2>this movie is like pro Judas.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, this might be blasphemous.

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<v Speaker 2>Judas had a point.

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<v Speaker 3>I was rooting for Judas much more than I was

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<v Speaker 3>rooting for Jesus in the context of this movie.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, no, like literally, okay, there's so much Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus Christ Superstar. Oh okay, this is the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 2>This is are intersectional feminist movie podcast, which there actually

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<v Speaker 2>is a lot to talk about because we're sort of

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<v Speaker 2>talking about Christianity and Judaism writ large. There's so much

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about today. So if you don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>the Bexwel test is, look it up. You know what.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not your I'm not your fucking mom. It's my birthday. Yeah, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Does the Bible pass the Bexels test? I would wager not,

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<v Speaker 2>But let's google it. Oh, let's google it. Oh that's

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<v Speaker 2>actually a really good, annoying question.

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<v Speaker 3>I bet it kind of does.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's a long book.

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<v Speaker 3>Hopefully, I would say the Bible is not a feminist text.

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<v Speaker 2>Certainly not, certainly not. Okay, I'm not the first Oh okay,

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<v Speaker 2>the Bible barely passes the Bechdel test, so it gets

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<v Speaker 2>a barely pass. To be fair, this is Google AI

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<v Speaker 2>that you can't turn off, so it could be wildly

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<v Speaker 2>incorrect and just melted an ice cube. While the Book

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<v Speaker 2>of Ruth is often cited as a clear example, other

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<v Speaker 2>books like Exodus, Mark and Luke are also mentioned as

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<v Speaker 2>containing conversations between women about something other than a man. However,

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<v Speaker 2>many argue that these instances are sparse and often involve

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<v Speaker 2>women talking to men or the topic of conversation indirectly

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<v Speaker 2>relates to men. So I would say, maybe it doesn't pass.

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<v Speaker 2>This is we've had this. How many times have we

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<v Speaker 2>had this conversation where it's like, well, they don't name

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<v Speaker 2>a man, but a man is implied, but we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about the ramifications of a man's actions. So yeah, let's

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<v Speaker 2>right at the top. Does the Bible pass the backseel test?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe technically, but spiritually no.

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<v Speaker 3>Spiritually no, I would say.

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<v Speaker 2>Spiritually no. And if that's a hot take to you,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, turn the show off, turn the show off.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what to tell you. Okay, let's just

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<v Speaker 2>get into it, because this is a text. This is

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<v Speaker 2>a text. There is so much going on with Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>Christ Superstar that I almost regret choosing it. But I

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<v Speaker 2>do think this is like my last I think because

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<v Speaker 2>I was going through the list of all of our

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<v Speaker 2>episodes from the last decade, and I think that this

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<v Speaker 2>is the last movie that, like really heavily imprinted on

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<v Speaker 2>me as a kid that we haven't covered. So it's necessary.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm curious, Caitlin, what is your history with Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>Christ Superstar.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I saw this movie like many during the Great

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<v Speaker 3>Caitlin movie binge of two thousand and five.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's interesting that it made the cut. Honestly, I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like this movie doesn't have a huge footprint outside

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<v Speaker 2>of like Sunday School, I know, but.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, somehow it made the list. I think it was

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<v Speaker 3>just referenced enough that I was like, I guess I

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<v Speaker 3>should see it.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, and Norman Jewison's a big director. I get it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So I took it upon myself to watch it

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<v Speaker 3>and Jamie, I know it's your birthday, so I want

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<v Speaker 3>to be kind and gentle. But I would say this

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<v Speaker 3>movie appeals to absolutely zero of my sensibilities and I

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<v Speaker 3>don't like it at all.

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<v Speaker 2>It's definitely not your kind of movie. It unfortunately is

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<v Speaker 2>my exact kind of movie. There's just extraneous dance numbers.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't really make sense.

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<v Speaker 3>It's loud, it's hard to follow. The songs are not catchy,

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<v Speaker 3>they're just very repetitive. I don't like Jesus's voice that.

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<v Speaker 2>I thoroughly agree with that Ted Neely, I just like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I mean, I know that that's me

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<v Speaker 2>five D chessing, being like they made Jesus unlikable so

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<v Speaker 2>that you would root for Judas. But I do think

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<v Speaker 2>it's a skill issue, unfortunately, and it's too bad because

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<v Speaker 2>it seems like Ted Neely is like from what I

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<v Speaker 2>had learned about him, he seems like a lovely person whatever, whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>which you can't say for everyone involved, because let's not

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<v Speaker 2>forget this was baby Andrew Lloyd Weber's little like Money project,

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<v Speaker 2>and he did, in fact, just steal the Batman theme.

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<v Speaker 2>This movie is so fun, Okay, can I can I

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<v Speaker 2>get into my history?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes? Please?

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<v Speaker 2>This movie is I'm not gonna say it's good. Although

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's bad. I think it is deeply, deeply,

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<v Speaker 2>deeply flawed. I think and I could be talked out

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<v Speaker 2>of this. I do think that this movie and this

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<v Speaker 2>musical in general, has its heart in the right place.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that it was There are many elements of

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<v Speaker 2>it that are subversive in a good way, and many

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<v Speaker 2>elements of it that are subversive in a counterproductive and

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes just straight up confusing way. But I saw this

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<v Speaker 2>movie for the first time when I was I think

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<v Speaker 2>in fifth grade, because I feel like we've like talked

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<v Speaker 2>about our respective histories with religion, but like my family

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<v Speaker 2>was all over the place, like I was baptized Catholic,

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<v Speaker 2>but then we were kind of like, no, it's too

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<v Speaker 2>dark in those churches, and so we stopped. And then

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<v Speaker 2>I went to for a good chunk of my youth,

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<v Speaker 2>except for when we were briefly into Wickedism. We went

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<v Speaker 2>to like a I think technically Protestant but a congregational church,

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<v Speaker 2>which is basically the shorthand of saying it was the

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<v Speaker 2>only church in my city that was friendly to queer people,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it was I mean, I will say, like,

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<v Speaker 2>I feel lucky that I don't have a ton of

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<v Speaker 2>like religious trauma or baggage in my life because my

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<v Speaker 2>church was like relatively loosey, goosey and friendly, which you

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<v Speaker 2>can tell because they showed this to me in instead

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<v Speaker 2>of like walking us through the Crucifixion story, they literally

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<v Speaker 2>turned this movie on and they're like, so that is

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<v Speaker 2>basically what happened, and we were all like, oh, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>so this musical is very important to me. It also

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<v Speaker 2>was a big musical for my mom. She it was

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<v Speaker 2>her like vacuuming music. Oh, for all of my childhood.

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<v Speaker 2>So we like we were in Andrew Lloyd Webber household.

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<v Speaker 2>We listened to a lot of Phantom, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>Jac's Superstar. We skipped over Cats for some reason. That

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<v Speaker 2>was where the line was drawn. But yeah, I deeply

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<v Speaker 2>loved this movie. And Carl Anderson as Judas was one

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<v Speaker 2>of the biggest, most formative crushes of my life. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I was obsessed with him, and I was really sad

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<v Speaker 2>he died in two thousand and two, which was shortly

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<v Speaker 2>after I learned he existed. It really so whatever grade

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<v Speaker 2>I was in in two thousand and one, I was like, Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>he's my crush. We're going to make it work, even

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<v Speaker 2>though he's seventy or whatever, even though he could be

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<v Speaker 2>my peepot, We're going to make it work. And then

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<v Speaker 2>he died. But I still think it's like one of

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<v Speaker 2>my Like, Carl Anderson is Judas, and there's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff going on here, but like It's still one

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<v Speaker 2>of my favorite performances to watch, I think ever, which

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<v Speaker 2>is very nostalgia field, but it's also like he's so good.

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<v Speaker 2>I just think he's so amazing. A lot of this

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<v Speaker 2>is Carl Anderson Fueld, And then you go back to

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<v Speaker 2>the original Broadway cast and Judas. I mean this also

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<v Speaker 2>Ted Neely in the original Broadway cast, which again mistake,

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<v Speaker 2>but you had Ben Vereen as the original Judas. So like,

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<v Speaker 2>no matter who, like, Judas is the best character, and

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like the musical knows that because he's Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>has exactly one good song, and that's a problem. In

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus Christ Superstar, he has one good song.

0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:23.440
<v Speaker 3>What do you classify as his one good song?

0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.440
<v Speaker 2>So I'm gonna I'm gonna say it's it's a skip

0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.520
<v Speaker 2>for me, But fans of Jesus Christ Superstar do like, oh,

0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna say this so wrong because because also I

0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:37.160
<v Speaker 2>would say that Jesus Christ Superstar is probably like I

0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:43.120
<v Speaker 2>did research for this to see what the interpretation is,

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.079
<v Speaker 2>but for a long time I was just like, this

0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.760
<v Speaker 2>is a documentary and everything I know about the last

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.400
<v Speaker 2>days of Jesus' life, like it's in this documentary that

0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:58.760
<v Speaker 2>I watched Gissemine the song where he's like, what should

0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:00.880
<v Speaker 2>I that song?

0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh, that's the name of the garden? I think where

0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:04.520
<v Speaker 3>they are the Last Supper.

0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that song. I get why people like it.

0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.920
<v Speaker 2>I still am like, it's I just Ted Neely's voice.

0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:16.439
<v Speaker 2>I find so grading, unfortunately, but like Carl Anderson's Got Heaven,

0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.800
<v Speaker 2>he's got the opener and the closer of the movie.

0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.920
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I don't know if there's anyone who's

0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.559
<v Speaker 2>ever argued that this movie is overtly anti Judas, but

0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.559
<v Speaker 2>I like, Judas has the first and the last song,

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.160
<v Speaker 2>and they're both doing laps around any of Jesus's songs.

0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.720
<v Speaker 2>Mary Magdalen, both of her songs are better than Jesus.

0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:37.600
<v Speaker 2>Any of Jesus's songs the villains have better. I mean,

0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.280
<v Speaker 2>the villains usually have better songs, but like you're gonna

0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.880
<v Speaker 2>tell me Jesus has a better song than King Herod,

0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:44.440
<v Speaker 2>And where do we even start with that?

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:46.760
<v Speaker 3>Okay, King Herod's song is my favorite.

0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.720
<v Speaker 2>It is so like you're like, is it homophobic? Probably?

0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.960
<v Speaker 2>But is it iconic? Definitely? Like I don't understand, Like

0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:56.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what they were doing there, and the

0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.760
<v Speaker 2>best part is Joshua Mistelle, who is Zero Mistelle's son.

0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 2>So Broadway Netbo.

0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.600
<v Speaker 3>Baby, they don't know who those people are on.

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.240
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let me take well. It is actually important because

0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Joshua Mustelle is the child of Zero Mistyle, who both

0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.160
<v Speaker 2>originated Tevia and Fiddler on the Roof on Broadway and

0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:21.240
<v Speaker 2>also originated Max bialis Stock or no, he played Max

0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Bialistock in the original mel Brooks Producers. So he is

0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.360
<v Speaker 2>both an iconic Jewish actor and he was like blacklisted

0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.120
<v Speaker 2>in the fifties. Like he's an interesting guy, and josh

0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Mistell is his son and whatever, he's the NEPO baby

0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.120
<v Speaker 2>that's who plays Harod King Herron.

0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 3>Ok.

0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and Joshua Mistell is straight. But but I don't know.

0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 2>It was so weird. I was like watching because he's

0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.320
<v Speaker 2>still alive and has given interviews about it, and many

0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:54.280
<v Speaker 2>times he's been asked like, what what was that all about?

0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.280
<v Speaker 2>And he, to his credit, is like, I'm not really sure.

0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I don't know, and I cannot speak

0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:05.520
<v Speaker 2>on behalf of the queer community. But I like it.

0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I don't know. I like it. It's

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:12.640
<v Speaker 2>so good. And like, would I remove that number. I

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.200
<v Speaker 2>can't say that I would. I look forward to it

0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:19.080
<v Speaker 2>every time. Yeah, but like why is it why? I mean,

0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.400
<v Speaker 2>why is anything like anything in this movie?

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.840
<v Speaker 3>That's an excellent question. Why are the like high priests

0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.960
<v Speaker 3>dressed the way they are with a big deal?

0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I can so that. Okay, we're just getting right

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.920
<v Speaker 2>into it. That is. I wasn't aware of this, but

0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.360
<v Speaker 2>I was looking into like because I assumed that this

0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.560
<v Speaker 2>movie was considered like blasphemous by just about everybody when

0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>it came out, because I was like, Jesus isn't supposed

0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:50.040
<v Speaker 2>to be groovy or whatever, And it wasn't as controversial

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:51.520
<v Speaker 2>as I thought it would be. It was a little

0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 2>more well like openly embraced. But there were elements of it.

0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.280
<v Speaker 2>And this gets into the fact that we'll talk about

0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:04.880
<v Speaker 2>this that this movie was shot mostly in Palestine and

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.720
<v Speaker 2>majority in the West Bank, but the Israeli government has

0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.400
<v Speaker 2>its fingerprints all over it in terms of the permits

0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:14.160
<v Speaker 2>required to shoot the movie.

0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 3>They also, I believe, provided some of the funding for

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.880
<v Speaker 3>the production. It seems that way Yes offered a rebate

0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.600
<v Speaker 3>and then the director was like, wow, thank you so much.

0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:29.040
<v Speaker 3>Israel yes for doing that for us, and hey, other

0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.320
<v Speaker 3>Hollywood directors, you should go shoot your film in Israel

0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.600
<v Speaker 3>and like just like this glowing endorsement of this illegal

0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.000
<v Speaker 3>settler colonial ethno.

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.880
<v Speaker 2>State, which is particularly ridiculous when you consider it the

0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:45.880
<v Speaker 2>majority of the movie was filmed in the fucking West Bank,

0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.320
<v Speaker 2>Like it's yeah, that's I mean, we'll talk about the

0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:54.520
<v Speaker 2>production of this movie because it's deeply fucked and in

0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.800
<v Speaker 2>some converts of this movie to this day, the word

0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.720
<v Speaker 2>Palestine will not show up in life, like where was

0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:03.400
<v Speaker 2>this movie shot? Because there's a lot of and this

0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:05.600
<v Speaker 2>is you know, out of the control of the production

0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:07.359
<v Speaker 2>at this point because it was fifty years ago. But

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:11.520
<v Speaker 2>there are still Zionist publications or Zionist sympathizing publications that

0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.439
<v Speaker 2>will say this movie was completely shot in Israel, with

0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, completely, no just nothing, no no acknowledgment of

0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:20.920
<v Speaker 2>where this movie actually was shot and what the history

0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.760
<v Speaker 2>it is, which, of course, considering what this movie is

0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:32.160
<v Speaker 2>ostensibly about, is pretty fucking ridiculous. Where occupation is referenced constantly, Yes,

0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.800
<v Speaker 2>so we'll get into that, but oh, I forgot where

0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.919
<v Speaker 2>I was going with that originally. But but yeah, I

0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:45.320
<v Speaker 2>mean this this musical is I mean deeply, deeply, deeply

0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:50.639
<v Speaker 2>a product of its time, and I yeah, there was.

0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, it was a very difficult one to prep for.

0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, obviously, I mean hopefully if you're a listener

0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.879
<v Speaker 2>of this show, you're well aware of this already. But

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, any of this movie or productions ties with

0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.879
<v Speaker 2>Israel or any pro Israel rhetoric surrounding this movie is

0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:14.159
<v Speaker 2>obviously horseshit. I yeah, but before prepping for this, I

0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:17.080
<v Speaker 2>feel like it's a two prong thing, or it was

0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.320
<v Speaker 2>in my prep where it was like trying to get

0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:24.280
<v Speaker 2>to the bottom of how is this movie produced and

0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.560
<v Speaker 2>how is it produced like you're saying, Caitlin like in

0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:32.720
<v Speaker 2>cooperation and actually directly endorsed with Israel. Oh that was

0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 2>what I was going to say earlier. Is that later

0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 2>on Israel kind of disavowed this movie, which who fucking cares?

0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.879
<v Speaker 2>But I will say that the thing that and again,

0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:49.040
<v Speaker 2>like listeners, let me know if I'm off base here,

0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.280
<v Speaker 2>but one of the things in this movie that does

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:56.280
<v Speaker 2>genuinely seem to be anti Semitic is that costume choice

0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.040
<v Speaker 2>you were talking about with the high priests, because those

0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:03.719
<v Speaker 2>are Jewish high priests that and again I am not

0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.600
<v Speaker 2>an expert on literally any element of this because I

0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.679
<v Speaker 2>watched it as a documentary as a kid. But but

0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.040
<v Speaker 2>that there are a lot of Jewish communities that were

0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:19.280
<v Speaker 2>sort of turned like, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, monocultured,

0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:24.840
<v Speaker 2>caricaturized maybe exactly like the characters of Caiaphas and Honest

0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 2>have been criticized as being overtly anti Semitic, and from

0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.359
<v Speaker 2>what I could tell that that does appear to definitely

0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.840
<v Speaker 2>be true where they were just like, oh, every Jewish

0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.439
<v Speaker 2>community is the same, and we're gonna, you know, just

0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.560
<v Speaker 2>sort of create these vague villains who are based on

0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:46.120
<v Speaker 2>historical people. But for the for the movie is just

0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 2>like it really leans into I think a pretty anti

0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:53.359
<v Speaker 2>Semitic place. So it's there's just there's just there's a lot.

0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:57.720
<v Speaker 2>It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah, So will you

0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.480
<v Speaker 2>tell me the story of Jesus came?

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.800
<v Speaker 3>I sure will. I know so much about it. Let's

0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:04.920
<v Speaker 3>take a quick break first, and then we'll come back

0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:05.600
<v Speaker 3>for the recap.

0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:17.800
<v Speaker 2>And we're back.

0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:22.040
<v Speaker 3>So here's the recap. If it sounds like I'm talking

0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.479
<v Speaker 3>about the events of this famous Jesus story is if

0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.160
<v Speaker 3>I don't really know what I'm talking about or who

0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:31.480
<v Speaker 3>any of these people are, or if it sounds like

0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.080
<v Speaker 3>I've never read the Bible or been to a Christian church.

0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:37.359
<v Speaker 2>People are gonna be so shit. It's because that has

0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.400
<v Speaker 2>never read the Bible? How have we not read the Bible?

0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:43.359
<v Speaker 2>I tried to do a little bit of backgrounded, like

0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.320
<v Speaker 2>how Lucy Goosey is this adaptation. I'll do my best,

0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:52.280
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, ultimately, neither of us are religious, so this

0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:53.960
<v Speaker 2>is going to be a challenge, yes.

0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:56.760
<v Speaker 3>And also again, the movie's kind of hard to follow,

0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.760
<v Speaker 3>especially in the sense that characters will just suddenly show

0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.159
<v Speaker 3>up on screen and they're not really introduced and you

0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.040
<v Speaker 3>don't know who they are in the context of the

0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:06.600
<v Speaker 3>rest of the narrative, and you're just.

0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.919
<v Speaker 2>Like, I think, who is that? I think that this movie?

0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:11.679
<v Speaker 2>That's I think that that's like a part of this

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 2>movie's agenda is that it is assumed that everyone knows

0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.119
<v Speaker 2>who everyone in this is, and like, if you are

0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:23.359
<v Speaker 2>not familiar with the Bible, this movie is gonna be

0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:27.480
<v Speaker 2>hard to right. It just genuinely is. I never watched

0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.800
<v Speaker 2>it before with anything other than just like a glaze

0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.760
<v Speaker 2>over my eyes and we'll talk about it. But I

0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.560
<v Speaker 2>was kind of struck with, like, how overtly political. Like

0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 2>a good chunk of the lyrics in this musical are yes.

0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.160
<v Speaker 3>And that's the other thing. There is no spoken dialogue.

0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.960
<v Speaker 3>Every word is a song, and that's just for some

0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.199
<v Speaker 3>reason hard for my brain to pay attention to.

0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's like it's operatic, and I think that I'm

0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.080
<v Speaker 2>if I'm not miss saying, I think that JAC Superstar

0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:00.119
<v Speaker 2>started as like a concept album. Yes, so yeah, so

0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.320
<v Speaker 2>it's basically written as an opera.

0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:02.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:04.520
<v Speaker 2>I kind of like that, but I also feel like

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:10.640
<v Speaker 2>it's easier for and maybe this is like our generation problem,

0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:12.879
<v Speaker 2>but it's like I feel like when everything is sung,

0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.760
<v Speaker 2>there are so many like large chunks of this movie

0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.040
<v Speaker 2>that I was like, oh, I guess I never really

0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.200
<v Speaker 2>listened to what they were saying, because you're just like, dude,

0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:23.840
<v Speaker 2>do do do do do do do do, like you're

0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:28.040
<v Speaker 2>like whatever, But then you listen to it, You're like, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay.

0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:30.320
<v Speaker 2>I've been watching this my whole life, and I was like,

0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.440
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't really listen to what Simon was saying.

0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:36.400
<v Speaker 3>I don't even know who Simon is.

0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:37.639
<v Speaker 2>I got you, I got you.

0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.639
<v Speaker 3>Okay, all right, here's the story. We are in a

0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:47.400
<v Speaker 3>desert in Palestine. It's sort of two thousand years ago,

0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.680
<v Speaker 3>but it's also sort of contemporary.

0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.919
<v Speaker 2>It's the seventies. It's like it's it's I think that

0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:58.120
<v Speaker 2>the it's supposed to be a bunch of hippies staging a.

0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:02.240
<v Speaker 3>Play, right because as shows up, Yeah, and people jump

0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.760
<v Speaker 3>off the bus and get into like costume slash character

0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.680
<v Speaker 3>for the movie that we're about to watch. Among them

0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:13.679
<v Speaker 3>is Jesus Christ ever heard of him? Yeah, played by

0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:14.840
<v Speaker 3>Ted Neely and.

0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:19.359
<v Speaker 2>A white Jesus. Which, well, it's that's like one of

0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:23.919
<v Speaker 2>the I think most obviously wrong things with this, Like

0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:28.800
<v Speaker 2>two Well, I should have said in our prep that

0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.959
<v Speaker 2>in two days from now, my mom and I are

0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:37.159
<v Speaker 2>going to see Cynthia Rivo as Jesus at the Hollywood Bowl. WHOA, Yeah,

0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:40.680
<v Speaker 2>I was really excited because she's gonna it's gonna be

0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:42.760
<v Speaker 2>the first time that I'll be like, consider Jesus and

0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Jesus Christ superstar. But Cynthia Riva is playing Jesus and

0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Adam Lambert is playing Judas. But for the two most

0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.800
<v Speaker 2>I think influential productions of this there is a white

0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Jesus and a black Judas. So in the original productions

0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:01.400
<v Speaker 2>Ted Neelie and Ben Vereen and this production it's Ted

0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Neely and Carl Anderson. This has been I think, like

0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:11.199
<v Speaker 2>corrected over time. I think the last production of this

0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:15.720
<v Speaker 2>that made a cultural wave was when John Legend played

0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Jesus like six or seven years ago. So this is

0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.919
<v Speaker 2>like a habit that has been corrected over time. But

0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:27.040
<v Speaker 2>white Jesus, white Jesus, yes.

0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:30.399
<v Speaker 3>Yes, indeed. Also I read that Ted Neely was like

0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.800
<v Speaker 3>the Jesus understudy in the stage musical, but he did

0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:38.840
<v Speaker 3>like he had gotcha other parts within the stage production

0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.000
<v Speaker 3>and then was cast as Jesus in the film. But

0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:44.080
<v Speaker 3>either way, still involved in both.

0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Bless his heart. Wish he wasn't, wish he wasn't so irritating.

0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:52.920
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So we meet the cast as actors.

0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:57.560
<v Speaker 2>I guess, yeah, they're like community theater. I don't know,

0:24:57.920 --> 0:24:58.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:02.280
<v Speaker 3>And then we meet Judas played by Carl Anderson, who

0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.440
<v Speaker 3>sings a song about Jesus.

0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Okay, the outfit is great. I used to really want

0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:15.840
<v Speaker 2>the orange tied I Judas fit. Okay, because it's both

0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:19.400
<v Speaker 2>stylish and comfortable. He sings Heaven on Their Minds, which

0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:22.280
<v Speaker 2>is I think, for my money, the best song in

0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:26.280
<v Speaker 2>the musical. To me, it's the best song in the musical.

0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:32.120
<v Speaker 2>But again a very political song right that I think

0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:38.040
<v Speaker 2>like pretty quickly gets us into Judas's head in an

0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:43.800
<v Speaker 2>interesting way where he's just like, Jesus, you're doing too much, Jesus.

0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:47.200
<v Speaker 3>That's his way. He's like, I feel like maybe you've

0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:50.880
<v Speaker 3>lost sight of the cause and the message that you've

0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:53.679
<v Speaker 3>been preaching, Jesus. And yes, I think maybe you're a

0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:55.359
<v Speaker 3>false messiah and.

0:25:55.400 --> 0:26:00.120
<v Speaker 2>Jac superstar like Jesus. The Jesus of this production is

0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:04.760
<v Speaker 2>is so bitchy. Jesus is a is a huge bitch

0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:08.800
<v Speaker 2>in this one, and I think it's funny. My favorite

0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:10.800
<v Speaker 2>scene when I was okay, well, one of my favorite

0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:12.399
<v Speaker 2>scenes that I would like to laugh at with my

0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:15.720
<v Speaker 2>cousins is when Jesus, I mean I know that this

0:26:15.840 --> 0:26:18.399
<v Speaker 2>is like also in the Bible, but that when he

0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:22.000
<v Speaker 2>goes to the temple and he's like he hates it.

0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:26.879
<v Speaker 2>He's acting like he like it's like a Wendy's franchise

0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:29.600
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, this sucks. I hate it. Get it.

0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:34.679
<v Speaker 2>Stop everyone's having fun. Stop. I know that that's at

0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:36.160
<v Speaker 2>the point of the scene, but I feel like that's

0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:38.240
<v Speaker 2>how he plays it, where he's like, ah, he's just

0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:42.680
<v Speaker 2>like freaking out at the all. Yes, yes, it's funny. Okay. Anyways,

0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:46.119
<v Speaker 2>Judas is like Jesus is doing too much.

0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:53.200
<v Speaker 3>Meanwhile, there are Roman soldiers trooping around because.

0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 2>In crop tops, mind in little tank tops.

0:26:55.440 --> 0:27:00.000
<v Speaker 3>Tank tops because of course, the Roman Empire has occupied

0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:01.560
<v Speaker 3>hide this land.

0:27:01.440 --> 0:27:04.840
<v Speaker 2>Which ironically this movie is not shy, does not shy

0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:09.439
<v Speaker 2>away from talking about while actively making deals with Israel

0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:10.600
<v Speaker 2>to make the movie happen.

0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:15.240
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, right, exactly. So then we cut to Jesus

0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:18.560
<v Speaker 3>and his disciples singing.

0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:23.840
<v Speaker 2>What's the buzz? Oh my god, so funny. All the

0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:27.199
<v Speaker 2>cuts in this movie are hard cuts because you just

0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:30.360
<v Speaker 2>never know what you're gonna cut to. Sure, I think

0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:34.840
<v Speaker 2>the Apostles really come off as real dufes in this movie.

0:27:35.160 --> 0:27:39.879
<v Speaker 2>They seem like goofy little guys that are there fanboys,

0:27:39.920 --> 0:27:42.359
<v Speaker 2>which I guess is kind of like no offense is

0:27:42.400 --> 0:27:45.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of what the Apostles were, where like Simon is

0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:49.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of the street team. Uh you know there, you could,

0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:52.560
<v Speaker 2>you could, but what's the buzz? Is again one of

0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:56.280
<v Speaker 2>the many songs in this musical that I both have

0:27:56.320 --> 0:27:59.280
<v Speaker 2>a lot of affection for and is like straight up annoying.

0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:02.840
<v Speaker 2>It's annoying song. A lot of these songs and Jesus

0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Christ Superstar are straight up annoying.

0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:05.760
<v Speaker 3>I'm glad you've said that.

0:28:05.880 --> 0:28:09.679
<v Speaker 2>And I celebrate that. I all of like most of

0:28:09.720 --> 0:28:12.720
<v Speaker 2>the things that are like campy about this movie, even

0:28:12.720 --> 0:28:15.439
<v Speaker 2>when they're bad. I love and What's the Buzz is

0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:17.200
<v Speaker 2>an annoying song that will get stuck in your head

0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:17.960
<v Speaker 2>for the rest of.

0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:23.359
<v Speaker 3>Your life unfortunately. Yes, yeah, anyway, so we're seeing that.

0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:26.880
<v Speaker 3>And then we also meet Mary Magdalene played by Yvonne Elleman.

0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:29.919
<v Speaker 2>Oh right, because she was the one person who was

0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:33.359
<v Speaker 2>actually the main role on Broadway I think, yes, yes,

0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:36.080
<v Speaker 2>and then Ted Neely was the understudy. You're totally right, yeah, yah.

0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:40.400
<v Speaker 3>So Mary is there tending to Jesus as she does

0:28:40.440 --> 0:28:44.000
<v Speaker 3>throughout the entire movie, patting his forehead with a damp cloth,

0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:45.200
<v Speaker 3>et cetera.

0:28:45.400 --> 0:28:48.880
<v Speaker 2>She's a bit of a foot freak in this interpretation.

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 3>And then Judas shows up to be like, Jesus, why

0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:57.840
<v Speaker 3>are you hanging out with Mary? She's a sex worker

0:28:57.880 --> 0:29:00.880
<v Speaker 3>and she doesn't really fit in with your vibe and

0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:04.800
<v Speaker 3>your crowd, and Jesus is like, bitch, who are you

0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:08.360
<v Speaker 3>to judge anyone exact? And he was right to say it,

0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:09.520
<v Speaker 3>and he was right to say it.

0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Judas, you know, Judas is a problematic fave.

0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:14.880
<v Speaker 3>He's a character Jesus warf.

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Maybe he is Judas. I'm so glad you said that

0:29:18.520 --> 0:29:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Judas is a swarf because it's true. It's true, it's true,

0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:24.760
<v Speaker 2>and he needs to get over himself. He had like

0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:28.760
<v Speaker 2>I just and then with Jesus and Judas, I do

0:29:28.800 --> 0:29:30.480
<v Speaker 2>think that you're supposed to want to be like at

0:29:30.480 --> 0:29:34.120
<v Speaker 2>certain points like kiss, like there are especially with the betrayal.

0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:36.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I guess they do kiss. They kind of

0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:37.440
<v Speaker 2>famously kiss.

0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:39.280
<v Speaker 3>And that happened in the Bible. I had to look

0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:39.920
<v Speaker 3>it up, but.

0:29:40.040 --> 0:29:42.640
<v Speaker 2>That you know, Oh no, yeah, there's been wars over

0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:46.440
<v Speaker 2>that kid. It's like it's a very famous it's like Titanic,

0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:52.720
<v Speaker 2>followed by this, yeah, by Judas kissing Jesus before yeah.

0:29:51.920 --> 0:29:55.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, followed closely by the end of Shrek one where

0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:56.200
<v Speaker 3>Shrek and Fiona kiss.

0:29:56.280 --> 0:29:58.800
<v Speaker 2>I know, and some people disagree. So people think Shrek

0:29:59.120 --> 0:30:01.560
<v Speaker 2>just beats out. She's a centis by just a little bit,

0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>but you know, interpret as.

0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:07.920
<v Speaker 3>You will exactly. So Judas is carrying on, and then

0:30:08.120 --> 0:30:13.120
<v Speaker 3>Jesus is like, I'm sorry, but he is whining constantly.

0:30:13.240 --> 0:30:16.880
<v Speaker 2>He's a bitch. He's bitchy. He's like, you will not

0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:18.080
<v Speaker 2>find me arguing this.

0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:21.840
<v Speaker 3>He's like, no one even cares if I come or go.

0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:27.920
<v Speaker 2>He's no disciples, He's he's like frown he's pouting, he's frowning.

0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:30.760
<v Speaker 2>He's like, no one listens to be that. Later, when

0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:34.240
<v Speaker 2>he's crowded by people who are poor. I mean, I

0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:37.440
<v Speaker 2>do think there's a larger interpretation that I is. It's

0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:39.240
<v Speaker 2>so weird because I feel like there is like some

0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:41.560
<v Speaker 2>nuance in the way that it's written that Ted Neely

0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:44.680
<v Speaker 2>just does not telegraph at all. Because when he's like

0:30:45.000 --> 0:30:48.200
<v Speaker 2>give me by space, like he has so many like

0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:51.160
<v Speaker 2>annoying little he's just leave me.

0:30:52.880 --> 0:30:54.440
<v Speaker 3>I have a lot to say about that scene.

0:30:54.440 --> 0:30:55.680
<v Speaker 2>We'll get there, but we'll get there.

0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 3>Yes, anyway, He's like he's whining, and his disciples are like,

0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:01.080
<v Speaker 3>how can you even say that, Jesus, we love you.

0:31:02.720 --> 0:31:07.120
<v Speaker 3>Then we cut to Caiaphas, a Jewish high priest, the

0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:10.400
<v Speaker 3>one with the wild hat, and then he has a

0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:12.920
<v Speaker 3>he has a little buddy, what's his name Annis?

0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:17.200
<v Speaker 2>Yes, okay, And their whole appeal lyric, like you know,

0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:21.320
<v Speaker 2>musically is high voice, low voice, and as a kid,

0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:24.000
<v Speaker 2>for me, I was like, this is cartoon, this is

0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:28.200
<v Speaker 2>giving cartoon. Their songs in particular, I for sure never

0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:30.120
<v Speaker 2>listened to the lyrics because I was just like ha,

0:31:30.720 --> 0:31:31.400
<v Speaker 2>big and small.

0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:34.959
<v Speaker 3>I had to pay such hard attention. And here's what

0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:36.920
<v Speaker 3>I have deduced that they're singing about.

0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:39.800
<v Speaker 2>And this first, their first song, was added for the movie.

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:42.480
<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, I did read that one of their songs

0:31:42.840 --> 0:31:43.760
<v Speaker 3>was an addition.

0:31:43.960 --> 0:31:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Believe it's this one.

0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:49.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay. So basically what they're singing about is they

0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:53.440
<v Speaker 3>don't like that Jesus is going around and calling himself

0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:56.840
<v Speaker 3>a king and something has to be done about him.

0:31:57.600 --> 0:32:02.239
<v Speaker 3>Then we cut back to Jesus and now Mary is

0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:07.360
<v Speaker 3>putting some ointment and murdror on him, and maybe Frankinsonse

0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:12.160
<v Speaker 3>is involved, I don't know. But she's singing everything's all right,

0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:13.960
<v Speaker 3>Everything's fine. I forget the melody of.

0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:19.520
<v Speaker 2>That everything's up. Yes, uh yeah. Unfore I well, this

0:32:19.560 --> 0:32:22.080
<v Speaker 2>is more of a like classic bectal cast discussion. But like,

0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:27.360
<v Speaker 2>it is unfortunate that like such a historically compelling character

0:32:27.400 --> 0:32:29.880
<v Speaker 2>as Mary Magdalene is reduced to a handful of like

0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:33.200
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is so awesome. I love kind of songs. I

0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:36.360
<v Speaker 2>love him, but I think that von elleman performance is

0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:40.360
<v Speaker 2>like really good. Her second song, in particular, I don't

0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:43.760
<v Speaker 2>know how to love him. I've was obsessed with that song.

0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:46.520
<v Speaker 2>I have like a very strong memory of walking around

0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:49.240
<v Speaker 2>my neighborhood thinking of like a kid in my neighborhood,

0:32:49.240 --> 0:32:51.320
<v Speaker 2>I had a crush on, like saying that song to me.

0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:57.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how to love Cory, go wow. Corey

0:32:57.360 --> 0:33:00.640
<v Speaker 2>was my Jesus at the time, brave, and I didn't

0:33:00.680 --> 0:33:04.400
<v Speaker 2>know how to love Corey. He didn't He certainly didn't

0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:06.080
<v Speaker 2>know how to love me. He didn't know I existed.

0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:13.400
<v Speaker 3>Okay, anyway, So Judas is there also, and he's like,

0:33:14.280 --> 0:33:17.479
<v Speaker 3>what the hell, Jesus, why did you spend money on

0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:20.959
<v Speaker 3>that expensive murror when we could have used it to

0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:25.720
<v Speaker 3>feed the poor? And Jesus is basically like, relax, guy,

0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:29.000
<v Speaker 3>there's not much we can do for poor people. We

0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:32.680
<v Speaker 3>should just appreciate the nice things we have. And I'm like,

0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:33.800
<v Speaker 3>wait a minute, which.

0:33:33.640 --> 0:33:38.120
<v Speaker 2>Is like a very broad Yeah, I'm curious for Bible

0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:41.560
<v Speaker 2>heads out there, how oversimplified is this? Because it's like

0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:45.520
<v Speaker 2>I feel like what I kept losing in the plot,

0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:49.120
<v Speaker 2>or like what was not clearly communicated for those of

0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:53.640
<v Speaker 2>us that aren't Bible heads. Right, I know that Jesus

0:33:54.080 --> 0:33:57.040
<v Speaker 2>knew he was going to die soon, like this whole time,

0:33:57.120 --> 0:34:00.240
<v Speaker 2>he knows he's about to die, But I feel like

0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:04.480
<v Speaker 2>that is not very clearly telegraphed in ways that like,

0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.520
<v Speaker 2>I think in this scene he is being callous, but

0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:12.600
<v Speaker 2>also he seems needlessly callous in like sometimes he's being

0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:15.600
<v Speaker 2>like I don't have time. I don't have enough time

0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:20.480
<v Speaker 2>in my life to fix this gigantic systemic problem. But

0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:23.600
<v Speaker 2>that was never clearly communicated because I think it's assumed

0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:26.000
<v Speaker 2>that we know that already. But he just comes off

0:34:26.000 --> 0:34:28.719
<v Speaker 2>looking like, ugh, I don't know, I don't know. You're

0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:29.560
<v Speaker 2>like Jesus.

0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:32.480
<v Speaker 3>It just seems like he doesn't care about poor people.

0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Which is but canonically not true about him. Sure, exactly,

0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:37.720
<v Speaker 2>it's weird.

0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:42.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's bizarre. Then the next day, Caiaphas and a

0:34:42.160 --> 0:34:47.680
<v Speaker 3>council of priests gather to discuss Jesus how he's dangerous

0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:51.840
<v Speaker 3>because they think the Romans will kill all of the

0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:55.839
<v Speaker 3>Jews because of Jesus's antics, so he has to die

0:34:55.880 --> 0:34:57.080
<v Speaker 3>for the sake of everyone else.

0:34:57.480 --> 0:34:59.759
<v Speaker 2>And I think it's like a play bike. I mean

0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:02.880
<v Speaker 2>on that first song between because I really had to

0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:06.800
<v Speaker 2>listen to the lyrics of the Caiaphas and Anna's songs

0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:10.840
<v Speaker 2>because it's so cartoty and distracting. But I'm pretty sure

0:35:11.000 --> 0:35:15.640
<v Speaker 2>that and again historically I've seen this has been disputed.

0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:18.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't really know, and I know that Kiaphas and

0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Annas are the characters that are most commonly accused of

0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:25.880
<v Speaker 2>being more overtly anti Semitic, as well as the way

0:35:26.000 --> 0:35:29.319
<v Speaker 2>that the crowds are depicted towards the end of the movie,

0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:31.600
<v Speaker 2>which we'll get to, because I think the way that

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:35.440
<v Speaker 2>ponscious Pilot is characterized in this movie is like extremely generous,

0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:39.600
<v Speaker 2>which we'll get to, and that is another common criticism

0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:42.640
<v Speaker 2>of this movie. But I'm pretty sure in their first song,

0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Kiaphas is both saying what he says to the council

0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:50.640
<v Speaker 2>or whatever you call a group of priests. I don't

0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:54.799
<v Speaker 2>know where He's like, Jesus is dangerous and we have

0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:56.920
<v Speaker 2>to kill him. But I think he's also doing that

0:35:57.400 --> 0:35:59.360
<v Speaker 2>with the knowledge that like, if he's the one that

0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:01.799
<v Speaker 2>makes that call, it will be good for him politically.

0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:07.680
<v Speaker 3>Sure, Yeah, in any case. Jesus meanwhile and his followers

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:13.920
<v Speaker 3>are traveling through the desert and they're singing, Ho, Sanna, Hey, Sana.

0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:16.560
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what they're saying.

0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:20.840
<v Speaker 2>They love his ass, they love him. They're like yes

0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Jesus and say war.

0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:26.600
<v Speaker 3>And then in a different musical number, his disciples are

0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:28.680
<v Speaker 3>singing Christ you.

0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Noah, I love you, oh my God, oh my God.

0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:36.560
<v Speaker 2>That saw that dance number is unhinged. Okay, so that's Simon's.

0:36:36.760 --> 0:36:39.279
<v Speaker 2>So I had to check this because again, like all

0:36:39.320 --> 0:36:41.600
<v Speaker 2>of this movie is just like a blur in my

0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:44.040
<v Speaker 2>brain where I know all the words, but what any

0:36:44.080 --> 0:36:46.880
<v Speaker 2>of them mean. So Simon is one of the Apostles,

0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:49.759
<v Speaker 2>which I guess I never really connected before. He is,

0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:51.959
<v Speaker 2>from what I can gather, kind of the street team

0:36:52.120 --> 0:36:53.960
<v Speaker 2>of the Apostles, where.

0:36:54.120 --> 0:36:55.960
<v Speaker 3>He's leading the flash mobs, et cetera.

0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:58.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's doing the flash mob. He's like the social

0:36:58.719 --> 0:37:04.640
<v Speaker 2>media director of you know, Christianity sort of, I guess.

0:37:05.440 --> 0:37:07.839
<v Speaker 2>But so I think that the implication is that, like

0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:11.480
<v Speaker 2>Simon has been away spreading the word of Jesus and

0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:15.360
<v Speaker 2>is bringing all of these people back as followers of Jesus.

0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:18.600
<v Speaker 2>And again, I'm like, I know that there's a listener

0:37:18.719 --> 0:37:21.040
<v Speaker 2>being like wrong, Jamie, but I really really try. I

0:37:21.080 --> 0:37:22.320
<v Speaker 2>just need you to know that I tried.

0:37:22.840 --> 0:37:23.320
<v Speaker 3>I tried.

0:37:23.560 --> 0:37:26.520
<v Speaker 2>I think my understanding of and I think this is

0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:30.160
<v Speaker 2>like a criticism that I have of the movie where

0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:35.040
<v Speaker 2>Simon is coming back and says in that song like

0:37:35.160 --> 0:37:40.600
<v Speaker 2>he is implying that Jesus's presence could be a huge

0:37:40.640 --> 0:37:46.840
<v Speaker 2>difference in liberating the Jews from the Romans, and Jesus

0:37:46.880 --> 0:37:48.960
<v Speaker 2>is sort of like, well, I'm going to die in

0:37:49.000 --> 0:37:52.759
<v Speaker 2>three days. But Simon says, yeah, Christ, what word do

0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:54.440
<v Speaker 2>you need to convince you that you've made it? And

0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:56.880
<v Speaker 2>you're easily as strong as the filth from Rome who

0:37:56.960 --> 0:37:59.920
<v Speaker 2>rape our country and who've terrorized our people for so long.

0:38:00.760 --> 0:38:03.040
<v Speaker 2>Keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of

0:38:03.040 --> 0:38:05.320
<v Speaker 2>hate at room, you will rise to a greater power.

0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:07.920
<v Speaker 2>We will win ourselves a home. So a lot of

0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:10.840
<v Speaker 2>loaded language there, but I think like that the core

0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:15.879
<v Speaker 2>of what he's saying is that Jesus' presence could be

0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:21.319
<v Speaker 2>a liberatory force against an oppressive regime and Jesus like

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:25.759
<v Speaker 2>with regularity is just sort of like no, shrug, Yeah,

0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:30.840
<v Speaker 2>you're like, well, what's the point of you then, Jesus.

0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:33.400
<v Speaker 2>But I feel like that's not the musical seems to

0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:37.200
<v Speaker 2>feel like Simon is wrong, and the musical seems to

0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:41.640
<v Speaker 2>feel like any like and that I mean, Judas famously

0:38:41.960 --> 0:38:46.239
<v Speaker 2>is wrong about certain things, but that like Judas's perspective

0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:49.680
<v Speaker 2>of like I don't know, like I just feel like

0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:54.000
<v Speaker 2>any like larger liberation that is proposed in this movie

0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:57.879
<v Speaker 2>is dismissed as being naive. Again, I'm like, I guess

0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.960
<v Speaker 2>that that's I don't know if that's more criticism of

0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:04.279
<v Speaker 2>this musical's interpretation or the Bible itself. I don't know,

0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:07.760
<v Speaker 2>but I know that it bothers me. And it sucks

0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:14.960
<v Speaker 2>to see any character that proposes leveraging someone's celebrity and

0:39:15.000 --> 0:39:20.000
<v Speaker 2>influence to liberate people as being like, well, no, we're

0:39:20.000 --> 0:39:25.880
<v Speaker 2>not going to do that, as ridiculous you know, yeah.

0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:28.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I was barely following any of that.

0:39:29.880 --> 0:39:32.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's also because yeah, they're doing like jazz hands

0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:37.000
<v Speaker 2>throughout this like pretty serious political lyrics, so I had

0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:40.400
<v Speaker 2>to It sucks because like when you're reading about this musical,

0:39:40.400 --> 0:39:44.080
<v Speaker 2>you also have to like vet the source considerably because

0:39:44.120 --> 0:39:47.560
<v Speaker 2>you're like, this could be any number of like overtly

0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:50.479
<v Speaker 2>religious interpretations of it. And I was like, is there

0:39:51.400 --> 0:39:53.879
<v Speaker 2>And I was able to find a few places that

0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I felt like were credible that we're able to help

0:39:56.719 --> 0:40:00.680
<v Speaker 2>me through this because because also, I mean, I know

0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:03.680
<v Speaker 2>that this comes up in the conversation around this movie

0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:07.600
<v Speaker 2>all the time, like early to mid seventies was weirdly

0:40:07.840 --> 0:40:11.480
<v Speaker 2>I still can't figure out why, but like God and

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Jesus musicals, people were like, let's do it more because

0:40:15.760 --> 0:40:17.480
<v Speaker 2>this came out the same year as Godspell.

0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:22.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there were a bunch of movies with like strong

0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:28.280
<v Speaker 3>religious overtones and like specifically Christian overtones in this era. Also,

0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:32.799
<v Speaker 3>like Monty Python's Life of Brian came out sometime around.

0:40:32.560 --> 0:40:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Here, And if anyone can help me understand why, because

0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:39.280
<v Speaker 2>that is not something I've I've seen it obviously presented

0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:41.759
<v Speaker 2>as like, wow, this was happening a lot. I'm like,

0:40:41.840 --> 0:40:44.239
<v Speaker 2>surely if it was happening that many times and like

0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:47.759
<v Speaker 2>massively successful, but like what was going I don't know.

0:40:47.800 --> 0:40:50.440
<v Speaker 2>I also think that this movie is like there's a

0:40:50.480 --> 0:40:54.200
<v Speaker 2>few moments where it's trying to make comment on the

0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Vietnam War in different places. It's like it's trying to

0:40:57.880 --> 0:41:00.600
<v Speaker 2>do I just don't understand why this, like noween seventy

0:41:00.600 --> 0:41:05.040
<v Speaker 2>three was like Jesus Musical year, but but it was.

0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:08.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, and I'm not I don't. Honestly, god'spell

0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:09.360
<v Speaker 2>is none of my business. I don't know.

0:41:09.680 --> 0:41:11.560
<v Speaker 3>I've never seen it, don't know it neither.

0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:14.080
<v Speaker 2>I know that Victor Garber plays Jesus, so that's.

0:41:13.840 --> 0:41:17.480
<v Speaker 3>Fun Victor of Titanic fame anyway.

0:41:17.040 --> 0:41:19.680
<v Speaker 2>But it's somehow a musical that I find even more

0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:20.759
<v Speaker 2>annoying than this one.

0:41:21.040 --> 0:41:26.120
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so all right, So then we meet Roman official

0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:31.719
<v Speaker 3>Ponscious Pilot. He has heard about this Jesus fellow, and

0:41:32.280 --> 0:41:33.880
<v Speaker 3>I think at this point he doesn't really know what

0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:37.160
<v Speaker 3>to make of him. I think again, the songs are

0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:38.239
<v Speaker 3>hard to pay attention to.

0:41:38.440 --> 0:41:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Panta's Pilot is straight up like emo boy, like it's

0:41:41.600 --> 0:41:44.680
<v Speaker 2>so bizarre to me, and I was this was something

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:48.640
<v Speaker 2>I attempted to look into. It's like, is this at all?

0:41:48.760 --> 0:41:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Is this a normal way to portray Pontcious Pilot as

0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:56.120
<v Speaker 2>sort of this? Because I feel like throughout the movie

0:41:56.600 --> 0:41:59.839
<v Speaker 2>Pancha's Pilot, who is like a Roman leader. I think

0:41:59.840 --> 0:42:02.319
<v Speaker 2>that you could say, like at the time, he would

0:42:02.360 --> 0:42:04.640
<v Speaker 2>have been the most powerful person in the movie in

0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:07.880
<v Speaker 2>an immediate sense, but they make it out to be.

0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:10.200
<v Speaker 2>And I guess that this is not super unusual. And

0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:12.960
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of Western interpretations of pontchous Pilot that

0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:17.040
<v Speaker 2>sort of fall along these lines as like that he

0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:19.960
<v Speaker 2>was and again I don't agree with this, but I

0:42:19.960 --> 0:42:24.200
<v Speaker 2>also don't know the Bible that he was portrayed as

0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:30.400
<v Speaker 2>capitulating to whatever would make him most popular, versus actually

0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:34.720
<v Speaker 2>feeling strongly that Jesus needed to be killed. But again,

0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:37.680
<v Speaker 2>the way that it's like telegraphed in this adaptation to

0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:42.799
<v Speaker 2>me makes him seem tortured and sympathetic in a way

0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:46.640
<v Speaker 2>that I find really really off putting. This is like

0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:49.080
<v Speaker 2>and I didn't know this still today, but like that

0:42:49.280 --> 0:42:53.360
<v Speaker 2>That's another common criticism of the movie is that like

0:42:53.960 --> 0:42:56.359
<v Speaker 2>poncious Pilot, I feel like, is the kind of like

0:42:56.960 --> 0:43:01.160
<v Speaker 2>just such an obvious villain that I don't really I

0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:03.960
<v Speaker 2>don't have a particular interest as if you were, and like, well,

0:43:03.960 --> 0:43:08.120
<v Speaker 2>did he feel conflicted about murdering people? Like who gives

0:43:08.160 --> 0:43:10.120
<v Speaker 2>a fuck. But I feel like this movie kind of

0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:10.960
<v Speaker 2>gives a fuck.

0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:13.279
<v Speaker 3>Right, because he's an agent of the occupation.

0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:17.560
<v Speaker 2>The Roman is the occupation, right, So like that's the thing,

0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:21.120
<v Speaker 2>is like he is the occupation. And so if I'm

0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:25.040
<v Speaker 2>understanding the hierarchy correctly, here, ponscious Pilot is like a

0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:31.480
<v Speaker 2>Roman leader. He is the occupation. He has these various minions.

0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:36.160
<v Speaker 2>He sends Jesus off to King Herod because King Herod

0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:39.319
<v Speaker 2>and again, please correct me if you're wrong, but like

0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:43.120
<v Speaker 2>King Herod, I think politically was considered King of the

0:43:43.200 --> 0:43:46.640
<v Speaker 2>Jews at that time, which is why his whole song

0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:48.840
<v Speaker 2>is making fun of Jesus for saying he's king of

0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:50.959
<v Speaker 2>the Jews because he's like, I'm King of the Jews

0:43:51.000 --> 0:43:53.400
<v Speaker 2>when I think historically he may not have even been Jewish,

0:43:53.560 --> 0:43:57.320
<v Speaker 2>but he was like an enforcer of the occupation. And

0:43:57.840 --> 0:44:01.080
<v Speaker 2>then you have Caiaphas and Annas who are Jewish priests

0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:05.680
<v Speaker 2>who are trying to appease the Roman Empire. But like, yeah,

0:44:05.719 --> 0:44:08.200
<v Speaker 2>poncous Pilot is the most powerful person in the movie.

0:44:08.280 --> 0:44:11.919
<v Speaker 2>So I don't understand why. I mean, I understand why

0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:15.080
<v Speaker 2>because that happens in populist movie, making all the time.

0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:19.120
<v Speaker 2>It's why you have fucking like Darth Vader narratives and

0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:23.080
<v Speaker 2>like people love to be like, well, this like oppressive fascist,

0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:25.840
<v Speaker 2>Like what's going on in his head? How did he

0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:29.920
<v Speaker 2>get there? But I don't know because this music is

0:44:29.920 --> 0:44:32.960
<v Speaker 2>such a mess. I just the performance is fine, you know,

0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:37.200
<v Speaker 2>my hat off to Bury Dennin, but it's just like

0:44:37.360 --> 0:44:40.560
<v Speaker 2>he literally looks like the leader of Like he looks

0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:43.400
<v Speaker 2>like Gerard Way. I'm like, what are you doing? He

0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:45.919
<v Speaker 2>looks like he's like my chemical romancing his way through

0:44:45.920 --> 0:44:49.520
<v Speaker 2>this poncious pilot performance where he's like, oh, it's so

0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:53.239
<v Speaker 2>hard to have so much power and be like I

0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:58.279
<v Speaker 2>have to kill people. Like I don't know that interpretation, Yeah,

0:44:58.960 --> 0:45:01.520
<v Speaker 2>just I don't. I don't like it. I don't like it.

0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:07.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah. That becomes abundantly clear in a scene towards

0:45:07.080 --> 0:45:08.839
<v Speaker 3>the end of the movie.

0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Right where he like leans down to Jesus. He's like,

0:45:11.080 --> 0:45:14.320
<v Speaker 2>I really don't want to do this, but the people

0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:18.960
<v Speaker 2>are asking, so whatever he was in Titanic? Did you

0:45:19.000 --> 0:45:22.319
<v Speaker 2>know that? Did you know that Barry Dennan was in Titanic?

0:45:22.680 --> 0:45:22.759
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:24.560
<v Speaker 3>Who did he play?

0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Praying man? Oh? Caw wait? Let me actually I didn't

0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:34.320
<v Speaker 2>look up a picture because I bet we will recognize

0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:35.279
<v Speaker 2>him as praying man.

0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:36.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, please send it to me.

0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, Oh my god. Wait, he's kind of iconic,

0:45:42.200 --> 0:45:42.799
<v Speaker 2>remember him.

0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:45.080
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah. And they're like, can you move a little

0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:47.840
<v Speaker 3>faster through that valley there, because he's like saying something

0:45:47.880 --> 0:45:50.600
<v Speaker 3>something through the shadow of the valley of death. Blah

0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:52.360
<v Speaker 3>blah blah. Whoa.

0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:54.400
<v Speaker 2>I was excited to give that fact to you, and

0:45:54.440 --> 0:45:57.000
<v Speaker 2>then I forgot to look up what they meant by that.

0:45:57.360 --> 0:46:03.680
<v Speaker 2>He's literally, wow, he's praying. He's praying man, unlike ponscous pilot. Yeah,

0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:09.400
<v Speaker 2>he was not moving through that valley because he killed Jesus. Anyways,

0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:10.239
<v Speaker 2>what range.

0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:15.759
<v Speaker 3>So true? So true? Okay, So then we're at a

0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:21.320
<v Speaker 3>marketplace in Jerusalem. Merchants are selling stuff and.

0:46:21.239 --> 0:46:25.279
<v Speaker 2>Jesus at the mall. Jesus at the mall's picked. He

0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:27.880
<v Speaker 2>throws a fit at the mall because.

0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:29.600
<v Speaker 3>The idea is that this is like a group of

0:46:29.640 --> 0:46:33.799
<v Speaker 3>heathens who are shaking their asses and doing drugs and

0:46:33.880 --> 0:46:36.440
<v Speaker 3>selling weapons and yeah, stuff.

0:46:36.160 --> 0:46:38.440
<v Speaker 2>Like that, which feels I mean, and this is just

0:46:38.560 --> 0:46:41.480
<v Speaker 2>me my interpretation of the vibes of this scene. It

0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:43.920
<v Speaker 2>feels a little bit tongue in cheek because it's so

0:46:44.280 --> 0:46:47.279
<v Speaker 2>like overtly sexy, and it's like a story without a

0:46:47.400 --> 0:46:49.920
<v Speaker 2>story where you're like, it's so wild that these community

0:46:49.920 --> 0:46:53.160
<v Speaker 2>theater actors are shaking their asses right now. But yeah, no,

0:46:53.280 --> 0:46:56.600
<v Speaker 2>Jesus pitches a fit at the mall and you're like, Okay,

0:46:56.600 --> 0:46:58.919
<v Speaker 2>he's being Jesus is being a swarf now, but he's

0:46:58.960 --> 0:47:01.400
<v Speaker 2>also kind of being anti capitalist, and.

0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:05.480
<v Speaker 3>Which is Jesus's whole thing. So I was like, why

0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:07.400
<v Speaker 3>weren't you like that before when you were talking to

0:47:07.520 --> 0:47:10.840
<v Speaker 3>Judas who knows, but he trashes the market.

0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:12.640
<v Speaker 2>He pitches a fit at them all.

0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:17.560
<v Speaker 3>He really does. And then Jesus goes to what I

0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:23.399
<v Speaker 3>believe is a leper colony, this community of people who

0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:27.040
<v Speaker 3>are disabled and dealing with disease and they're hoping that

0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:30.480
<v Speaker 3>Jesus can heal them, and he tries to help, but

0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:35.040
<v Speaker 3>the sheer number of people is overwhelming and he's like,

0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:37.480
<v Speaker 3>there are too many of you. Leave me alone.

0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:40.080
<v Speaker 2>And I get it. It's like I think that I'm

0:47:41.480 --> 0:47:43.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm whatever. There's a lot of things that are wrong

0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:47.440
<v Speaker 2>here where it's just like again, this the way that

0:47:47.480 --> 0:47:52.840
<v Speaker 2>this narrative is just overall from Jesus's perspective, dismissive of

0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:57.760
<v Speaker 2>poverty and dismissive of the underclass in general, like anyone

0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:01.839
<v Speaker 2>vulnerable who's like that's that's Jesus, his whole thing. But

0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:05.200
<v Speaker 2>he seems to not be interested in this movie, which

0:48:05.239 --> 0:48:07.879
<v Speaker 2>is why I do think it's like it's a it's

0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:12.920
<v Speaker 2>partially just not a good performance. Sorry, Ted Neely. I

0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:15.480
<v Speaker 2>feel like the most generous interpretation I could get to,

0:48:15.680 --> 0:48:18.440
<v Speaker 2>but it's like he's not a good enough actor or

0:48:18.640 --> 0:48:22.480
<v Speaker 2>really singer to pull it off. Is like the concept

0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:27.480
<v Speaker 2>of like he is one person and like cannot possibly

0:48:28.080 --> 0:48:31.880
<v Speaker 2>fix something this massive in the amount of time. Like

0:48:31.880 --> 0:48:33.880
<v Speaker 2>it's like I do think that there is like this

0:48:34.000 --> 0:48:37.239
<v Speaker 2>element that you can feel in certain numbers. I feel

0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:40.239
<v Speaker 2>like it comes across in that song Gosemine, where it's

0:48:40.280 --> 0:48:44.880
<v Speaker 2>like his what he wants to accomplish is too massive

0:48:45.520 --> 0:48:50.799
<v Speaker 2>for one person, which but the ways that that's demonstrated

0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:55.360
<v Speaker 2>makes him look like a real asshole totally like yeah.

0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:58.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's it's bizarre. But then we cut to that

0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:03.480
<v Speaker 3>night while geez this is sleeping, Mary Magdalene sings about

0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.960
<v Speaker 3>how she loves Jesus but she doesn't know how best

0:49:07.160 --> 0:49:08.080
<v Speaker 3>to love him.

0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:10.279
<v Speaker 2>And I like I do. The part of the song

0:49:10.320 --> 0:49:12.200
<v Speaker 2>that made me laugh this time around was that she

0:49:12.360 --> 0:49:14.320
<v Speaker 2>was like, and if he asked me to be his girlfriend,

0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:20.640
<v Speaker 2>I'd be like no. I like like, I'd panic, I'd

0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:21.040
<v Speaker 2>say no.

0:49:23.000 --> 0:49:24.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and good for her?

0:49:24.480 --> 0:49:27.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, same, I would. It's too much pressure. I don't

0:49:27.440 --> 0:49:28.680
<v Speaker 2>want to be Jesus's girlfriend.

0:49:28.920 --> 0:49:29.640
<v Speaker 3>A lot of pressure.

0:49:29.760 --> 0:49:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh my god, the tabloids.

0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:38.839
<v Speaker 3>Yes, okay. So then the Batman theme starts playing, no no, no,

0:49:38.840 --> 0:49:41.719
<v Speaker 3>no no no no, Judas.

0:49:41.120 --> 0:49:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Who can say why? And there was a whole lawsuit

0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:46.600
<v Speaker 2>around this. There was, of course of lawsuit because there

0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:49.640
<v Speaker 2>had to be because also this came out like this

0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:52.400
<v Speaker 2>concept album came out in the early seventies, which was

0:49:52.880 --> 0:49:56.000
<v Speaker 2>so close to the Batman Show being on TV that

0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:56.640
<v Speaker 2>it would.

0:49:56.400 --> 0:50:00.239
<v Speaker 4>Have been like I was writing a musical about Jesus

0:50:00.280 --> 0:50:04.000
<v Speaker 4>and then this theme from SpongeBob just started playing like

0:50:04.560 --> 0:50:09.760
<v Speaker 4>it was so Angeloi Webber, what a what a fucking loser?

0:50:09.920 --> 0:50:10.080
<v Speaker 2>Any?

0:50:10.239 --> 0:50:11.000
<v Speaker 3>Very bizarre?

0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:11.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:50:11.600 --> 0:50:16.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So then Judas goes to Caiaphas and his minions

0:50:17.480 --> 0:50:20.040
<v Speaker 3>to be like, we got to stop Jesus.

0:50:20.320 --> 0:50:21.880
<v Speaker 2>No no no no no no no.

0:50:23.840 --> 0:50:27.439
<v Speaker 3>And Caiaphas is like, okay, we'll pay you to tell

0:50:27.520 --> 0:50:31.560
<v Speaker 3>us where we can find Jesus. So Judas accepts pieces

0:50:31.600 --> 0:50:35.160
<v Speaker 3>of silver and says that they can find him on

0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:40.040
<v Speaker 3>Thursday night in a garden that I don't know how

0:50:40.040 --> 0:50:41.120
<v Speaker 3>to say what it's called.

0:50:41.840 --> 0:50:45.800
<v Speaker 2>I think it's gives them any yep, Okay.

0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:49.719
<v Speaker 3>Then we cut to the Last Supper. Jesus and his

0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:55.839
<v Speaker 3>twelve apostles break bread and drink wine, and then Jesus

0:50:56.000 --> 0:51:00.279
<v Speaker 3>sings about a suspicion that one of the apostles will

0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:02.840
<v Speaker 3>betray him, and he knows that it's Judas.

0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Real housewives of the Garden of CASSEMONI hmmm, he starts.

0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:12.160
<v Speaker 2>He once again can't help himself. He has to pitch

0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:13.960
<v Speaker 2>a fit. I mean, to be fair, it's his last

0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:17.160
<v Speaker 2>night on earth. Let him cook. But like right, Also,

0:51:17.239 --> 0:51:18.799
<v Speaker 2>none of his friends stay up with him on his

0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:21.080
<v Speaker 2>last on the last night of his life, which is rude,

0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:22.080
<v Speaker 2>pretty much rude.

0:51:22.200 --> 0:51:24.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they should have had a slumber party where they

0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:25.319
<v Speaker 3>stay up all night.

0:51:25.560 --> 0:51:26.760
<v Speaker 2>They should have watched a movie.

0:51:27.000 --> 0:51:31.719
<v Speaker 3>M oh wow. Anyway, so Jesus knows that Judas is

0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:36.120
<v Speaker 3>betraying him, so he casts Judas away, and I love

0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:38.040
<v Speaker 3>the part where he runs away in the middle of

0:51:38.080 --> 0:51:41.239
<v Speaker 3>a bunch of like sheep who were fucking.

0:51:40.800 --> 0:51:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Away, makes you think it's us. It's set, it's set,

0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:47.040
<v Speaker 2>and it makes you think maybe he's one of the sheep.

0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:47.640
<v Speaker 3>Whoa.

0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I remember my Sunday school teacher pointing that out.

0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:56.560
<v Speaker 2>And but good, this is a good use of our time.

0:51:56.760 --> 0:52:02.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly. Okay. So then Jesus sings to God asking

0:52:03.200 --> 0:52:06.000
<v Speaker 3>why God wants Jesus to die.

0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:09.160
<v Speaker 2>I think this song is interesting. I don't Again, I'm

0:52:09.200 --> 0:52:12.799
<v Speaker 2>not familiar with the biblical parallel. I don't like the song,

0:52:12.920 --> 0:52:14.919
<v Speaker 2>but I like what the song is doing. I feel

0:52:14.960 --> 0:52:18.399
<v Speaker 2>like this movie does to varying degrees of I think

0:52:18.400 --> 0:52:21.000
<v Speaker 2>this is one of the movie's more successful moments at

0:52:21.040 --> 0:52:27.440
<v Speaker 2>attempting to humanize Jesus and be like, well, if you

0:52:27.719 --> 0:52:31.280
<v Speaker 2>had to die for nebulous reasons tomorrow, you would also

0:52:31.360 --> 0:52:35.560
<v Speaker 2>be having a bad night. Like that's so true, that's

0:52:35.600 --> 0:52:36.080
<v Speaker 2>so true.

0:52:36.560 --> 0:52:38.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I like the way this song builds.

0:52:38.960 --> 0:52:42.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm excited to see Cynthia Arrivo sing that song

0:52:43.239 --> 0:52:47.120
<v Speaker 2>because that neally is so annoying. I'm like, I just

0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:50.840
<v Speaker 2>can't root for him. But yes, I like the premise

0:52:50.880 --> 0:52:53.640
<v Speaker 2>of that song. Yeah, and then he's like fine, i'll die.

0:52:54.000 --> 0:52:54.920
<v Speaker 3>Fine, I'll do it.

0:52:55.160 --> 0:53:01.200
<v Speaker 2>God, you bitch. He's like, Dad, watch stop killing me.

0:53:02.239 --> 0:53:08.120
<v Speaker 2>And I guess God offscreen is like, sorry, sorry, sorry, son,

0:53:08.480 --> 0:53:10.080
<v Speaker 2>you'll thank me someday.

0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:13.200
<v Speaker 3>And well, just like every other movie, this is a

0:53:13.239 --> 0:53:14.880
<v Speaker 3>story about fathers and sons.

0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:18.879
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the Bible really is the ultimate fathers and sons. Sorry,

0:53:18.960 --> 0:53:24.120
<v Speaker 2>like enough enough already. Okay, So the next morning, Judas

0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:29.520
<v Speaker 2>is back and he gives Jesus a little kiss and

0:53:29.640 --> 0:53:30.840
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is like stop that.

0:53:31.840 --> 0:53:32.160
<v Speaker 4>Stop.

0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:36.480
<v Speaker 2>Even though Jesus he's so he's so annoying, he's so messy,

0:53:36.520 --> 0:53:38.719
<v Speaker 2>where he's like, you have to go do this because

0:53:38.760 --> 0:53:40.560
<v Speaker 2>God said you have. Like, because I think that that's

0:53:40.560 --> 0:53:42.520
<v Speaker 2>a part of it that also isn't telegraphed well in

0:53:42.560 --> 0:53:45.320
<v Speaker 2>the movie, is that like this is all like something

0:53:45.360 --> 0:53:47.920
<v Speaker 2>that Jesus knows is going to happen because he was

0:53:47.960 --> 0:53:50.400
<v Speaker 2>told it's going to happen. And it's almost like Judas

0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:54.279
<v Speaker 2>is doomed to do this in some way, but then

0:53:54.320 --> 0:53:56.759
<v Speaker 2>whenever he's doing it, Jesus is like you he suck.

0:53:57.640 --> 0:53:59.799
<v Speaker 2>It's just weird, right.

0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:04.520
<v Speaker 3>So, also because I didn't know this, I've never read

0:54:04.560 --> 0:54:07.000
<v Speaker 3>the Bible, I don't know the details of this story

0:54:07.080 --> 0:54:11.320
<v Speaker 3>aside from the very basics of like Judas betrays Jesus

0:54:11.600 --> 0:54:15.400
<v Speaker 3>and then he's crucified. Yeah, I didn't know why this

0:54:15.480 --> 0:54:18.200
<v Speaker 3>kiss happened. Oh and the movie does not make it clear.

0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:21.040
<v Speaker 3>So no, I kind of like that. I kind of

0:54:21.080 --> 0:54:23.319
<v Speaker 3>liked that. The movie is just like, what do you think, Yeah,

0:54:23.320 --> 0:54:23.960
<v Speaker 3>they just kissed.

0:54:24.080 --> 0:54:24.719
<v Speaker 2>Do you like it?

0:54:24.800 --> 0:54:24.880
<v Speaker 1>So?

0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:28.400
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I like it. Whatever.

0:54:28.640 --> 0:54:33.640
<v Speaker 3>Also, when you do like a search online for like

0:54:34.560 --> 0:54:37.279
<v Speaker 3>Judas betraying Jesus, because I was like trying to find

0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:41.680
<v Speaker 3>this story as told by the Bible to see like

0:54:41.760 --> 0:54:44.919
<v Speaker 3>how it compares to the movie adaptation. When you look

0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:48.719
<v Speaker 3>at the like images from this search, most of the

0:54:48.760 --> 0:54:53.840
<v Speaker 3>images of this are of Judas kissing Jesus, and it's like,

0:54:54.400 --> 0:54:59.200
<v Speaker 3>you know, arguably homo erotic. And I don't know why

0:54:59.200 --> 0:55:00.600
<v Speaker 3>people don't talk a at that more.

0:55:01.080 --> 0:55:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I think that I do think people do talk about it.

0:55:04.040 --> 0:55:05.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm just not paying attention.

0:55:06.800 --> 0:55:10.319
<v Speaker 2>No, I just I definitely I don't know. I was

0:55:10.360 --> 0:55:12.120
<v Speaker 2>aware of the kids. But I also feel like the

0:55:12.160 --> 0:55:14.880
<v Speaker 2>kiss is like I'm trying to think of another like

0:55:14.920 --> 0:55:18.719
<v Speaker 2>piece of media where it's reproduced but the like, well,

0:55:18.760 --> 0:55:23.080
<v Speaker 2>it's actually it's actually reproduced in succession at some point. Whoa, Yeah,

0:55:23.400 --> 0:55:26.359
<v Speaker 2>Kendall kisses his father on the cheek before selling him out.

0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:30.799
<v Speaker 2>So if you ever see two aggressively straight men doing

0:55:30.840 --> 0:55:33.359
<v Speaker 2>a kiss on the cheek, something is about to go down.

0:55:33.880 --> 0:55:35.480
<v Speaker 2>But in this movie, I would say that this is

0:55:35.520 --> 0:55:39.520
<v Speaker 2>not at all an aggressively straight movie. It's uh no,

0:55:40.160 --> 0:55:43.040
<v Speaker 2>it's I mean, there's a lot of problems with it,

0:55:43.080 --> 0:55:47.359
<v Speaker 2>but I wouldn't say that it's rigid. Heterosexuality is one

0:55:47.400 --> 0:55:50.080
<v Speaker 2>of them. But yeah, they kiss.

0:55:50.280 --> 0:55:54.960
<v Speaker 3>They kiss because Judas had told Kiaphus that the person

0:55:55.560 --> 0:55:59.239
<v Speaker 3>thereafter is the one who Judas will kiss. He's like,

0:55:59.400 --> 0:56:02.600
<v Speaker 3>the way that you know who you need to arrest

0:56:02.920 --> 0:56:04.680
<v Speaker 3>is the person that I'm gonna kiss. Like that was

0:56:04.719 --> 0:56:07.320
<v Speaker 3>his little signal, okay Jesus, and so that's why he

0:56:07.400 --> 0:56:08.480
<v Speaker 3>kisses Jesus.

0:56:08.760 --> 0:56:11.120
<v Speaker 2>It's so weird because he could have been like the

0:56:11.160 --> 0:56:11.880
<v Speaker 2>person who's.

0:56:11.680 --> 0:56:14.319
<v Speaker 3>Hand I shake, could have done the person I'm gonna yeah,

0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:16.720
<v Speaker 3>or I'm gonna give an apple to something.

0:56:17.440 --> 0:56:21.040
<v Speaker 2>But it's also like I think it's like I I

0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:25.799
<v Speaker 2>like it, okay, in defense of the Bible, go on,

0:56:25.880 --> 0:56:28.759
<v Speaker 2>because I do believe this story is mostly made up, right.

0:56:29.320 --> 0:56:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I feel like the kiss is a good symbol because

0:56:34.960 --> 0:56:37.800
<v Speaker 2>and I think that this is well telegraphed in Carl

0:56:37.840 --> 0:56:43.359
<v Speaker 2>Anderson's good performance is that like he loves Jesus and

0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:46.880
<v Speaker 2>that like he's also like knows that he's doing this

0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:49.480
<v Speaker 2>horrible thing and saying goodbye at the same time. So

0:56:49.520 --> 0:56:52.880
<v Speaker 2>I feel like a kiss makes sense because it's like

0:56:52.960 --> 0:56:55.560
<v Speaker 2>if it was a if it was something less intimate

0:56:55.640 --> 0:56:57.520
<v Speaker 2>or personal, I feel like it would almost be like,

0:56:57.600 --> 0:57:02.000
<v Speaker 2>oh did he and Jesus would say this, did you

0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:04.400
<v Speaker 2>ever even care about me? Did you? Because that's like

0:57:04.440 --> 0:57:06.680
<v Speaker 2>half of his songs, Like, does anyone even even like me?

0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Even like me? I can't believe that? And ever meanwhile,

0:57:09.719 --> 0:57:13.440
<v Speaker 2>everyone's obsessed with him. He's just like a cheerleader. But

0:57:13.560 --> 0:57:18.680
<v Speaker 2>I liked and I also just like Carl Anderson kissing

0:57:18.720 --> 0:57:20.680
<v Speaker 2>someone because then I can be like, what if I

0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:25.000
<v Speaker 2>if it was me? Mm hmmm, So yeah, pro kiss.

0:57:25.080 --> 0:57:27.439
<v Speaker 3>I think they should have kissed on the lips.

0:57:27.120 --> 0:57:29.200
<v Speaker 2>But I think they should have gone to second base.

0:57:30.000 --> 0:57:36.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay. So then the Romans capture Jesus

0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:41.920
<v Speaker 3>and his apostles and bring them to Caiaphas who's like,

0:57:42.000 --> 0:57:45.760
<v Speaker 3>how dare you say you're the son of God. Then

0:57:46.000 --> 0:57:51.040
<v Speaker 3>they take Jesus to Ponscious Pilot, who's very condescending, and

0:57:51.080 --> 0:57:54.200
<v Speaker 3>he's like, who even are you Jesus Christ? I have never

0:57:54.200 --> 0:57:56.400
<v Speaker 3>heard of you. You don't seem like a king at all.

0:57:57.040 --> 0:58:01.240
<v Speaker 2>And Jesus regularly and I'm Sugar's a biblical significance, but

0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:03.880
<v Speaker 2>I just think it's fundy where they're like, so do

0:58:03.960 --> 0:58:04.919
<v Speaker 2>you think you're a king?

0:58:05.400 --> 0:58:07.320
<v Speaker 3>Do you think your cave of the Jews? And he's like,

0:58:07.680 --> 0:58:09.720
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. You're the one who said that, you

0:58:09.840 --> 0:58:10.080
<v Speaker 3>not me.

0:58:10.240 --> 0:58:11.800
<v Speaker 2>I know you are, but what am I?

0:58:12.160 --> 0:58:12.240
<v Speaker 4>Like?

0:58:14.120 --> 0:58:16.680
<v Speaker 2>They're like, okay, okay, that was a silly one. I'm

0:58:16.680 --> 0:58:19.560
<v Speaker 2>sure that happens in the Bible. Ball was like whatever, whatever,

0:58:20.000 --> 0:58:21.040
<v Speaker 2>yeah these.

0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:26.680
<v Speaker 3>Queens, Okay. So then Ponscious Pilot kind of passes Jesus

0:58:26.720 --> 0:58:32.160
<v Speaker 3>off to King Herod, who says, well, well, well, if

0:58:32.200 --> 0:58:36.240
<v Speaker 3>it isn't Jesus Christ, son of God, prove it, walk

0:58:36.280 --> 0:58:41.880
<v Speaker 3>on water and turn water into wine. But Jesus refuses,

0:58:42.480 --> 0:58:46.080
<v Speaker 3>so he's taken away and imprisoned in a cave.

0:58:46.800 --> 0:58:49.440
<v Speaker 2>And we will and we referenced this already, but that

0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:54.240
<v Speaker 2>number is just like needs to be seen to be believed.

0:58:54.120 --> 0:58:57.439
<v Speaker 3>And the costumes and the makeup in that scene really

0:58:57.520 --> 0:58:58.080
<v Speaker 3>quite something.

0:58:58.680 --> 0:59:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Really just yeah, who I was just like, whose idea

0:59:03.720 --> 0:59:06.200
<v Speaker 2>and why? And I don't I haven't been able to

0:59:06.200 --> 0:59:08.960
<v Speaker 2>find someone who can give a satisfactory answer. But it happens,

0:59:09.720 --> 0:59:12.600
<v Speaker 2>and that's really kind of the I meant. You cut

0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:15.960
<v Speaker 2>to Herod once or twice at other points in the movie,

0:59:15.960 --> 0:59:17.720
<v Speaker 2>including at the crucifixion.

0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:20.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but that's.

0:59:19.840 --> 0:59:21.120
<v Speaker 2>Really his only part.

0:59:21.520 --> 0:59:23.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't know if that's think we've seen him

0:59:23.840 --> 0:59:25.880
<v Speaker 3>in character at least up until this point.

0:59:26.240 --> 0:59:28.200
<v Speaker 2>No. Yeah, you see him in a T shirt when

0:59:28.360 --> 0:59:29.760
<v Speaker 2>you see him come out of the bus.

0:59:30.080 --> 0:59:32.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, right, and he's like flooping his hair a bit.

0:59:33.080 --> 0:59:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:36.760
<v Speaker 3>Anyway, So then we cut to Judas and he suddenly

0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:42.320
<v Speaker 3>feels very guilty about this whole thing. So consumed with remorse,

0:59:42.880 --> 0:59:46.600
<v Speaker 3>Judas hangs himself. Then it's Jesus' trial.

0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Spoiler alert, It does not go well.

0:59:48.960 --> 0:59:53.320
<v Speaker 3>Does not go well. No, Caiaphas and the other people

0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:57.160
<v Speaker 3>who are against Jesus saying about how he needs to

0:59:57.160 --> 1:00:01.080
<v Speaker 3>be crucified, and Ponscious Pilot is like, well, I don't

1:00:01.080 --> 1:00:03.320
<v Speaker 3>think we need to kill him. But if it makes

1:00:03.360 --> 1:00:05.680
<v Speaker 3>you feel better, I'll flog him.

1:00:06.400 --> 1:00:10.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, and I'm just sideyeing this whole narrative. Thirdily

1:00:10.160 --> 1:00:15.080
<v Speaker 2>of like this again, the most powerful colonizer in the

1:00:15.120 --> 1:00:18.080
<v Speaker 2>movie is like I don't want to you made you

1:00:18.120 --> 1:00:20.160
<v Speaker 2>made me do it, which I do think is another

1:00:20.560 --> 1:00:22.440
<v Speaker 2>and again listeners correct me if I'm wrong, but another

1:00:22.560 --> 1:00:27.320
<v Speaker 2>fairly anti Semitic narrative that surrounds this story that is

1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:29.840
<v Speaker 2>not challenged in this work at all, which is like,

1:00:29.920 --> 1:00:32.920
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote, the Jews killed Jesus, right, And that is

1:00:33.000 --> 1:00:36.720
<v Speaker 2>basically what how Ponscious Pilot is written and how the

1:00:37.320 --> 1:00:41.680
<v Speaker 2>crowd responds like is very not pushing against that interpretation

1:00:41.960 --> 1:00:42.280
<v Speaker 2>at all.

1:00:42.600 --> 1:00:45.560
<v Speaker 3>I've never seen Passion of the Christ, but I remember

1:00:45.600 --> 1:00:48.360
<v Speaker 3>that being a lot of the discourse around that movie when.

1:00:48.240 --> 1:00:51.920
<v Speaker 2>It came out. Well consider the author exactly. Yeah, one

1:00:51.920 --> 1:00:55.280
<v Speaker 2>of the most anti Semitic celebrities of all time. Yeah,

1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:57.480
<v Speaker 2>I haven't seen it either. I Oh wait, are you

1:00:57.480 --> 1:00:59.480
<v Speaker 2>talking about the Scorsese one or the mel.

1:00:59.400 --> 1:01:02.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this corse not the mel Gibson one. Okay, Scorsezy

1:01:02.800 --> 1:01:05.360
<v Speaker 3>one is the last Temptation of Christ.

1:01:05.280 --> 1:01:07.560
<v Speaker 2>And that's Willem defoe Jesus yes.

1:01:07.560 --> 1:01:12.680
<v Speaker 3>Right, I have seen that one any good. I don't remember.

1:01:13.720 --> 1:01:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I really Yeah. Once I saw Jesus Christ Superstar, I

1:01:16.520 --> 1:01:18.840
<v Speaker 2>was like, I get it. I don't you know, I

1:01:18.840 --> 1:01:20.640
<v Speaker 2>don't think that there's gonna be a more fun way

1:01:20.680 --> 1:01:23.080
<v Speaker 2>to tell this story, so I don't think try to

1:01:23.120 --> 1:01:27.560
<v Speaker 2>watch the others. But yeah, anyways, I and honestly, I

1:01:27.560 --> 1:01:29.680
<v Speaker 2>hadn't thought about that in a long time, and have

1:01:29.840 --> 1:01:31.720
<v Speaker 2>seen this so many times that I didn't even think

1:01:31.760 --> 1:01:33.360
<v Speaker 2>about it. But when I was going back through it,

1:01:33.360 --> 1:01:36.840
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, yeah, that is like pretty straightforwardly adapted,

1:01:36.880 --> 1:01:37.880
<v Speaker 2>without question.

1:01:38.360 --> 1:01:44.080
<v Speaker 3>Yes, So Jesus is publicly flogged. Mary Magdalene watches on

1:01:44.440 --> 1:01:49.640
<v Speaker 3>in horror, but the angry mob still wants to crucify Jesus.

1:01:50.800 --> 1:01:55.560
<v Speaker 3>Then we get a big musical number Jesus Christ Superstar.

1:01:55.880 --> 1:01:59.480
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, And I don't really know what's happening

1:01:59.480 --> 1:01:59.920
<v Speaker 3>here is it?

1:02:00.680 --> 1:02:01.840
<v Speaker 2>I love it? I don't know.

1:02:02.000 --> 1:02:04.520
<v Speaker 3>Okay, here was my interpretation, don't I don't know if

1:02:04.560 --> 1:02:08.600
<v Speaker 3>I'm way off, because this is being intercut with Jesus

1:02:08.760 --> 1:02:12.000
<v Speaker 3>like dragging the cross through the desert and then him

1:02:12.040 --> 1:02:13.480
<v Speaker 3>being crucified.

1:02:13.000 --> 1:02:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Which I think is way better than harping on the

1:02:15.840 --> 1:02:18.880
<v Speaker 2>intense violence of the Crucifixion, which I think is like

1:02:18.880 --> 1:02:24.200
<v Speaker 2>what every other adaptation really and so much Christian imagery,

1:02:24.360 --> 1:02:28.400
<v Speaker 2>like the crucifix in my Grandma's house. You're like, enough,

1:02:28.840 --> 1:02:29.880
<v Speaker 2>what the fuck?

1:02:30.280 --> 1:02:33.520
<v Speaker 3>I don't know why there's so much like reveling in

1:02:33.600 --> 1:02:36.400
<v Speaker 3>the violence of that, but yeah, the movie, at least

1:02:36.680 --> 1:02:38.360
<v Speaker 3>this movie does not do that.

1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:40.160
<v Speaker 2>They're like, they're like, what if we did the little

1:02:40.160 --> 1:02:44.040
<v Speaker 2>opposite of that and intercut a sexy disco number, so

1:02:44.560 --> 1:02:46.960
<v Speaker 2>questions things. I have thoughts about this. I'm excited to

1:02:46.960 --> 1:02:47.600
<v Speaker 2>hear your thoughts.

1:02:47.760 --> 1:02:50.320
<v Speaker 3>My interpretation is that, like this is sort of a

1:02:50.320 --> 1:02:55.080
<v Speaker 3>flash forward after he has like ascended to heaven. Because

1:02:55.160 --> 1:02:58.640
<v Speaker 3>Judas is also there, everyone is in like white clothes.

1:02:58.360 --> 1:03:02.960
<v Speaker 2>It sort of implies that Judas with heaven and you're like, yes, okay.

1:03:02.800 --> 1:03:04.000
<v Speaker 3>Great, I didn't even think about that.

1:03:04.160 --> 1:03:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but with a bunch of sexy angels.

1:03:08.240 --> 1:03:10.840
<v Speaker 3>So that was my interpretation. I don't really know.

1:03:11.720 --> 1:03:14.120
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you. I think that like it's I

1:03:14.160 --> 1:03:16.640
<v Speaker 2>don't know. To me, I just sort of it feels

1:03:16.640 --> 1:03:20.160
<v Speaker 2>like both a way to circumvent the harping on the

1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:24.600
<v Speaker 2>extreme violence that is like the most common way to

1:03:24.640 --> 1:03:27.680
<v Speaker 2>depict the Crucifixion, and it's like just sort of stating

1:03:27.720 --> 1:03:30.400
<v Speaker 2>the thesis of the movie where in a way that

1:03:30.440 --> 1:03:34.240
<v Speaker 2>I think is very like sympathetic to Judas again where

1:03:34.400 --> 1:03:36.760
<v Speaker 2>hold on, let me just pull up the lyrics, where

1:03:37.040 --> 1:03:39.960
<v Speaker 2>it's like Judas's character and I think it is like

1:03:40.000 --> 1:03:42.320
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be him, you know, saying the same thing

1:03:42.360 --> 1:03:44.520
<v Speaker 2>he did at the beginning, but with the knowledge of

1:03:44.560 --> 1:03:49.200
<v Speaker 2>what happens in the story, where he's like saying why why, why?

1:03:49.360 --> 1:03:54.200
<v Speaker 2>Why was it like that? Let me find I don't know,

1:03:54.280 --> 1:03:57.240
<v Speaker 2>it just feels very like Silly in seventies in some ways,

1:03:57.280 --> 1:04:01.480
<v Speaker 2>where he's like, why didn't you come to Earth in

1:04:01.600 --> 1:04:05.800
<v Speaker 2>the seventies? That's basically the thesis of the song. It's

1:04:05.840 --> 1:04:08.320
<v Speaker 2>like why did you why did you go? Why did

1:04:08.400 --> 1:04:12.880
<v Speaker 2>you choose this time in this place? Where which in

1:04:12.920 --> 1:04:17.160
<v Speaker 2>a way feels very overly optimistic because I don't know

1:04:17.200 --> 1:04:18.520
<v Speaker 2>in the way that I think that a lot of

1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:22.040
<v Speaker 2>the way that this production, in terms of its like

1:04:22.200 --> 1:04:28.439
<v Speaker 2>casting and its politics, are saying like, assume that we

1:04:28.480 --> 1:04:32.280
<v Speaker 2>now live in a less prejudiced and hateful world, which

1:04:32.320 --> 1:04:35.560
<v Speaker 2>of course we do not. But I think that that

1:04:36.000 --> 1:04:40.640
<v Speaker 2>the production takes a more optimistic bent and just gets silly,

1:04:40.800 --> 1:04:44.800
<v Speaker 2>where did you mean to die? Like that? Was that

1:04:44.840 --> 1:04:47.240
<v Speaker 2>a mistake or did you know your messy death would

1:04:47.240 --> 1:04:51.520
<v Speaker 2>be a record breaker? That lyric is nuts, like like

1:04:52.400 --> 1:04:56.880
<v Speaker 2>you can't say that. So yeah, I think that it's

1:04:56.960 --> 1:05:01.720
<v Speaker 2>like the movie's attempt to honestly, like I I've before

1:05:01.880 --> 1:05:03.960
<v Speaker 2>having for this, I knew the words that I never

1:05:03.960 --> 1:05:06.080
<v Speaker 2>thought about them, because once again you're just thinking about

1:05:06.120 --> 1:05:09.720
<v Speaker 2>Judas's outfit because you're like, whoa, He's wearing a full

1:05:09.800 --> 1:05:14.360
<v Speaker 2>white suit with like fringe everywhere. He's surrounded by sexy

1:05:14.440 --> 1:05:17.520
<v Speaker 2>angels and he's just like, Jesus, that was so weird.

1:05:17.640 --> 1:05:22.120
<v Speaker 2>Why did you do that? That was wild? And then

1:05:22.200 --> 1:05:24.760
<v Speaker 2>it's over. They get well, they get back in the bus.

1:05:24.800 --> 1:05:26.360
<v Speaker 3>They get back on the bus right so after this,

1:05:26.480 --> 1:05:28.120
<v Speaker 3>but you don't say, Jesus get back on the bus

1:05:28.120 --> 1:05:30.280
<v Speaker 3>and what the hell is that about? Well, because he

1:05:30.720 --> 1:05:31.680
<v Speaker 3>is in heaven, he died.

1:05:31.880 --> 1:05:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Did they really kill Ted Neely? That would be wild

1:05:34.880 --> 1:05:37.440
<v Speaker 2>if in the world of the play they're like, oops,

1:05:37.880 --> 1:05:38.960
<v Speaker 2>we killed Ted Neely?

1:05:39.680 --> 1:05:45.120
<v Speaker 3>Sad, Yeah, I guess it's like symbolic. I'm sure Jesus

1:05:45.160 --> 1:05:47.560
<v Speaker 3>isn't there. But yeah, they get on the bus and

1:05:47.600 --> 1:05:51.400
<v Speaker 3>they drive off the end. Bye bye. So that's the movie.

1:05:51.480 --> 1:05:58.320
<v Speaker 3>Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

1:06:05.240 --> 1:06:09.360
<v Speaker 2>And we're back where to start. I know we've covered

1:06:09.400 --> 1:06:14.160
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the smaller stuff throughout the recap, but yeah,

1:06:14.200 --> 1:06:16.800
<v Speaker 2>is there anything that is standing out to you? I mean,

1:06:16.800 --> 1:06:19.480
<v Speaker 2>I think that you know, we've talked a little bit

1:06:19.560 --> 1:06:23.440
<v Speaker 2>about how this movie was shot in Palestine and was

1:06:24.160 --> 1:06:26.720
<v Speaker 2>shot in cooperation and like you say, and like you said,

1:06:27.040 --> 1:06:32.240
<v Speaker 2>was partially funded by the Israeli government in a way

1:06:32.240 --> 1:06:37.880
<v Speaker 2>that it's like extremely pernicious and horrible. Yeah, and in

1:06:37.920 --> 1:06:42.400
<v Speaker 2>a way that I think is uh. I guess I

1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:47.280
<v Speaker 2>am surprised has not been brought up more in the

1:06:47.320 --> 1:06:50.720
<v Speaker 2>way for a musical that is still very much around

1:06:51.560 --> 1:06:54.720
<v Speaker 2>that the narratives that exist around its most popular adaptation

1:06:54.880 --> 1:06:57.080
<v Speaker 2>are never discussed. Like, this is all stuff that I've

1:06:57.160 --> 1:06:58.600
<v Speaker 2>learned in the last year or.

1:06:58.640 --> 1:07:02.400
<v Speaker 3>So, And I mean, I have a whole spiels let's

1:07:02.440 --> 1:07:05.920
<v Speaker 3>get into it just about I mean, so the movie again,

1:07:06.000 --> 1:07:11.000
<v Speaker 3>like doesn't shy away from acknowledging that the Romans were

1:07:11.040 --> 1:07:17.760
<v Speaker 3>occupying Palestine at the time these events were taking place.

1:07:18.080 --> 1:07:21.640
<v Speaker 2>But what it does shy away from is Palestine. Yeah,

1:07:21.680 --> 1:07:24.440
<v Speaker 2>and that Jesus was Palestinian and.

1:07:24.600 --> 1:07:29.360
<v Speaker 3>Like Jesus was a brown Palestinian Arab, which again, this

1:07:29.440 --> 1:07:34.520
<v Speaker 3>movie and most media, like mainstream media, that depicts Jesus

1:07:35.360 --> 1:07:39.880
<v Speaker 3>very much subscribes to this idea that Jesus was a

1:07:39.920 --> 1:07:44.280
<v Speaker 3>white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. And this

1:07:44.320 --> 1:07:47.560
<v Speaker 3>movie is no exception. There is more diversity in the

1:07:47.680 --> 1:07:51.000
<v Speaker 3>cast than I would have expected.

1:07:50.560 --> 1:07:53.600
<v Speaker 2>Right, But it's pointed like, I think what's interesting is

1:07:53.800 --> 1:07:58.120
<v Speaker 2>there is diversity in this movie, and I like that.

1:07:58.360 --> 1:08:00.840
<v Speaker 2>In the framing device, it's like, this is a group

1:08:00.920 --> 1:08:05.160
<v Speaker 2>of actors in the seventies question Mark just making a

1:08:05.200 --> 1:08:07.680
<v Speaker 2>deal with the Israeli government to put on a play,

1:08:08.000 --> 1:08:13.600
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, well, that's fucking horrible, especially if you

1:08:13.840 --> 1:08:17.600
<v Speaker 2>consider what the plight of the Palestinian people was in

1:08:17.640 --> 1:08:22.080
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen seventies, where there is an ongoing occupation, and

1:08:22.160 --> 1:08:25.240
<v Speaker 2>I think that a lot of I mean Norman Jewison also,

1:08:26.360 --> 1:08:29.639
<v Speaker 2>his other most famous movie is Fiddler on the Roof,

1:08:30.360 --> 1:08:34.680
<v Speaker 2>which specifically the theatrical adaptation, but I've never seen it,

1:08:34.720 --> 1:08:37.800
<v Speaker 2>but my understanding is the theatrical adaptation of it takes

1:08:37.800 --> 1:08:41.000
<v Speaker 2>a far more Zionist bent than the stage musical did,

1:08:41.720 --> 1:08:45.519
<v Speaker 2>and so Norman Jewison while he was a Christian director,

1:08:45.560 --> 1:08:47.479
<v Speaker 2>which I think a lot of people get confused about

1:08:48.920 --> 1:08:50.920
<v Speaker 2>because of his last name, where it's like, yeah, I

1:08:50.920 --> 1:08:53.840
<v Speaker 2>guess if my name was Jamie Mormon, people would make assumptions.

1:08:55.320 --> 1:08:59.360
<v Speaker 2>But he was a Christian director, but in his two

1:08:59.400 --> 1:09:03.320
<v Speaker 2>most famous movies either took a Zionist bent or in

1:09:03.360 --> 1:09:07.480
<v Speaker 2>the case of Jesus Christ Superstar literally was in cooperation

1:09:08.200 --> 1:09:13.960
<v Speaker 2>and being funded by Zionists. And yeah, I mean it's

1:09:14.040 --> 1:09:17.200
<v Speaker 2>it's so much of we see of what we still

1:09:17.200 --> 1:09:22.320
<v Speaker 2>see spoken about now, and this feels particularly horrific when

1:09:22.360 --> 1:09:26.880
<v Speaker 2>Gaza is being literally starved before our eyes as we

1:09:26.920 --> 1:09:31.160
<v Speaker 2>record this to see even a movie that has a

1:09:31.280 --> 1:09:37.760
<v Speaker 2>small part in uplifting this false narrative, while also like

1:09:37.800 --> 1:09:43.400
<v Speaker 2>you're saying, Caitlin saying the right things and being anti occupation,

1:09:44.080 --> 1:09:46.920
<v Speaker 2>but it's like it's only anti occupation to a point,

1:09:47.040 --> 1:09:51.320
<v Speaker 2>because it's like it's anti occupation but unwilling to acknowledge

1:09:51.360 --> 1:09:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Palestinians in any way, shape or form.

1:09:55.040 --> 1:09:58.760
<v Speaker 3>Right, like you have Judas singing lyrics something to the

1:09:58.760 --> 1:10:02.360
<v Speaker 3>effect of, listen, Jesus, do you care for your race?

1:10:02.760 --> 1:10:06.360
<v Speaker 3>We are occupied? Have you forgotten how put down we are.

1:10:07.280 --> 1:10:09.080
<v Speaker 3>But also this is coming from the person that we

1:10:09.120 --> 1:10:12.439
<v Speaker 3>are meant to think is the villain or that, like

1:10:12.520 --> 1:10:16.840
<v Speaker 3>you know, in this narrative, Judas is maybe not this.

1:10:16.880 --> 1:10:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Movie, Judas is definitely the best. Yeah, that's the thing.

1:10:19.560 --> 1:10:22.760
<v Speaker 2>I think that like that, again, I don't know how

1:10:22.840 --> 1:10:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Judas is portrayed in the Bible because I just am

1:10:26.360 --> 1:10:28.880
<v Speaker 2>not going to read it, but that, like Judas is,

1:10:29.000 --> 1:10:33.240
<v Speaker 2>it's so frustrating because it's like Judas's perspective I think

1:10:33.400 --> 1:10:36.280
<v Speaker 2>is like made out by the movie to seem valid

1:10:36.640 --> 1:10:40.840
<v Speaker 2>at different points, but then isn't at other points. And

1:10:40.880 --> 1:10:43.519
<v Speaker 2>I think Simon is very similar, where like Simon is

1:10:44.120 --> 1:10:47.439
<v Speaker 2>I think effectively making the argument of like leverage your

1:10:47.479 --> 1:10:49.920
<v Speaker 2>power and your influence and all of these followers we

1:10:49.960 --> 1:10:54.360
<v Speaker 2>have won you to help dismantle this oppressive force, and

1:10:54.439 --> 1:10:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is sort of like that's not possible. I can't

1:10:57.120 --> 1:11:00.719
<v Speaker 2>do that. And I don't know, like it's just it's

1:11:00.800 --> 1:11:03.920
<v Speaker 2>so muddy. But I do think it's interesting that the

1:11:03.960 --> 1:11:08.080
<v Speaker 2>message is overtly stated repeatedly, but like you're saying by

1:11:08.880 --> 1:11:13.040
<v Speaker 2>characters who are ultimately either villainous or misguided, even if

1:11:13.080 --> 1:11:17.640
<v Speaker 2>they love Jesus where it seems like ultimately the Jesus

1:11:17.760 --> 1:11:23.559
<v Speaker 2>shrug is like the takeaway, which is which is really

1:11:23.600 --> 1:11:24.640
<v Speaker 2>really frustrating.

1:11:24.960 --> 1:11:26.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you would think this movie would be way more

1:11:26.880 --> 1:11:33.040
<v Speaker 3>anti occupation, or that Jesus would be way more outspoken

1:11:33.120 --> 1:11:37.599
<v Speaker 3>about the occupation, but it kind of doesn't really happen.

1:11:37.960 --> 1:11:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Again in the source text, I don't know, you know

1:11:41.479 --> 1:11:45.240
<v Speaker 2>exactly what is said or isn't, but it's like Jesus,

1:11:45.280 --> 1:11:49.559
<v Speaker 2>even in the most like popular like straight up white

1:11:49.640 --> 1:11:55.040
<v Speaker 2>Christian nationalist interpretation, is a champion of the underclass.

1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:59.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, people living in poverty, people who are dealing with

1:11:59.720 --> 1:12:03.040
<v Speaker 3>who are sick illness, who are sex workers? Like right,

1:12:03.080 --> 1:12:04.400
<v Speaker 3>everyone knows this about Jesus, the.

1:12:04.439 --> 1:12:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Politically disenfranchised exactly, And that is not the vibes this

1:12:08.479 --> 1:12:10.439
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is giving off, not at all.

1:12:10.520 --> 1:12:13.920
<v Speaker 3>That's those traits are more ascribed minus the like pro

1:12:14.080 --> 1:12:18.639
<v Speaker 3>sex work ideology. Those traits are ascribed to Judas, Yeah,

1:12:18.680 --> 1:12:19.280
<v Speaker 3>way more so.

1:12:19.560 --> 1:12:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean I feel like what comes across clearly

1:12:22.840 --> 1:12:25.080
<v Speaker 2>to me about like what he does at the end

1:12:25.720 --> 1:12:29.240
<v Speaker 2>when he famously tells everyone where Jesus is.

1:12:29.920 --> 1:12:31.880
<v Speaker 3>That was bad, That was bad. He should not have

1:12:31.920 --> 1:12:32.200
<v Speaker 3>done that.

1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:34.559
<v Speaker 2>I wish he had that was and he was bad

1:12:34.560 --> 1:12:37.320
<v Speaker 2>for that. But at the beginning, I feel like Judas

1:12:37.439 --> 1:12:41.639
<v Speaker 2>is real flaw and I again, it's like a smarter

1:12:42.600 --> 1:12:47.240
<v Speaker 2>musical maybe could have like expressed these ideas better. Is that,

1:12:47.520 --> 1:12:51.360
<v Speaker 2>Like so much of where Judas is coming from is

1:12:51.400 --> 1:12:56.040
<v Speaker 2>he wants his people to be liberated, but he's afraid,

1:12:56.800 --> 1:13:00.320
<v Speaker 2>and he's afraid of like what the occupying for is

1:13:00.360 --> 1:13:02.599
<v Speaker 2>going to do if they are too loud? Like that's

1:13:02.640 --> 1:13:04.640
<v Speaker 2>the whole point of the first song of Like he

1:13:04.680 --> 1:13:07.120
<v Speaker 2>wants to be liberated, but he's afraid that they're being

1:13:07.640 --> 1:13:11.360
<v Speaker 2>they're being so loud that it's counterproductive, which is like

1:13:11.400 --> 1:13:14.759
<v Speaker 2>a flawed mindset, right, Like that's not a revolutionary mindset

1:13:14.760 --> 1:13:17.599
<v Speaker 2>at all. But then it's like it's not like Jesus

1:13:17.680 --> 1:13:21.719
<v Speaker 2>seems to have that agenda at all, right, where I think,

1:13:21.800 --> 1:13:24.439
<v Speaker 2>like of the perspectives presented in the movie, I'm like

1:13:24.800 --> 1:13:28.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of most with Simon because Simon, like I feel

1:13:28.760 --> 1:13:31.080
<v Speaker 2>like Simon had is the only person who seems to

1:13:31.120 --> 1:13:34.639
<v Speaker 2>have a plan and Jesus says no to the plan,

1:13:34.760 --> 1:13:35.719
<v Speaker 2>but there was a plan.

1:13:36.080 --> 1:13:40.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I I don't know. It's I don't know what

1:13:40.880 --> 1:13:42.800
<v Speaker 3>to make of so much of this.

1:13:43.120 --> 1:13:45.960
<v Speaker 2>It's a mess. And it's also like you know, written

1:13:46.280 --> 1:13:50.160
<v Speaker 2>by with all due respective I mean, I Andrew Laid Webber.

1:13:50.320 --> 1:13:55.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, he's who's politically a nightmare, right, Like Andrew

1:13:55.720 --> 1:13:59.320
<v Speaker 2>Laid Webber is a political fucking trash fire, and like

1:13:59.760 --> 1:14:04.000
<v Speaker 2>is deeply hated by most of his fans. Yeah, I

1:14:04.000 --> 1:14:05.920
<v Speaker 2>mean truly, Like I think Andrew Lee Webber is a

1:14:05.920 --> 1:14:10.640
<v Speaker 2>great example of like someone whose work is like storied

1:14:10.680 --> 1:14:13.439
<v Speaker 2>and lauded, and all of his fans are like, well,

1:14:13.439 --> 1:14:16.680
<v Speaker 2>don't listen to what he says, like because he is

1:14:16.800 --> 1:14:20.599
<v Speaker 2>like a right wing freak who like grew up rich,

1:14:20.640 --> 1:14:23.519
<v Speaker 2>and it's just like he's horrible. So is he the

1:14:23.560 --> 1:14:25.600
<v Speaker 2>person who I trust? And he wrote this when he

1:14:25.640 --> 1:14:28.519
<v Speaker 2>was twenty two and so you're like, do I trust

1:14:28.880 --> 1:14:32.920
<v Speaker 2>a wealthy, white twenty two year old who grew up

1:14:32.920 --> 1:14:36.960
<v Speaker 2>in a conservative household to give me anything here? No fair?

1:14:37.200 --> 1:14:40.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I don't know how musicals work. Really. He

1:14:40.479 --> 1:14:42.680
<v Speaker 3>wrote the music, right, but like not the book and

1:14:42.760 --> 1:14:44.400
<v Speaker 3>lyrics because that was Tim Rice.

1:14:44.479 --> 1:14:45.280
<v Speaker 2>That's Tim Rice.

1:14:45.479 --> 1:14:48.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. And then the screenplay for this movie was co

1:14:48.479 --> 1:14:54.519
<v Speaker 3>written by director Norman Jewison and Melvin Bragg. Yeah, so

1:14:55.400 --> 1:14:57.479
<v Speaker 3>it's a lot of white men making this.

1:14:57.880 --> 1:14:58.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I the.

1:14:58.880 --> 1:15:02.360
<v Speaker 3>Thing I want to say about jew Udas, even though

1:15:03.400 --> 1:15:05.519
<v Speaker 3>and Jamie, you and I agree that he's the best

1:15:05.560 --> 1:15:08.640
<v Speaker 3>character and he's the most fun to watch and.

1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:13.679
<v Speaker 2>The anthemist actor going with nice compliments towards Carl Anderson, and.

1:15:13.640 --> 1:15:18.120
<v Speaker 3>We're kind of rooting for him most of the time. Culturally,

1:15:19.640 --> 1:15:24.840
<v Speaker 3>Judas is not thought of favorably by no most Christians,

1:15:25.640 --> 1:15:30.840
<v Speaker 3>and so I liked, yeah, sorry, you heard it here first. Well,

1:15:32.960 --> 1:15:36.040
<v Speaker 3>so I think casting a black actor in that.

1:15:36.160 --> 1:15:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Role absolutely it's racist. Yes, particularly I think like that,

1:15:42.040 --> 1:15:44.639
<v Speaker 2>and this is done on stage, it's done in the movie.

1:15:44.880 --> 1:15:49.320
<v Speaker 2>The image of the hanging. I think it's very upsetting

1:15:49.800 --> 1:15:52.879
<v Speaker 2>because that is a casting choice that is made throughout

1:15:53.120 --> 1:15:56.599
<v Speaker 2>at least the early history. And again that's like that

1:15:56.680 --> 1:16:00.000
<v Speaker 2>has nothing to do with the quality of Ben Verie

1:16:00.320 --> 1:16:04.400
<v Speaker 2>or Carl Anderson's performances. As we said, they're they're doing

1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:08.320
<v Speaker 2>laps around Jesus every time. But it's Yeah, the optics

1:16:08.320 --> 1:16:12.519
<v Speaker 2>of it are very very ugly, especially because he is

1:16:12.520 --> 1:16:15.720
<v Speaker 2>the most prominent black actor in the movie, so there

1:16:15.760 --> 1:16:18.240
<v Speaker 2>is no like, well, there are other black characters that

1:16:18.280 --> 1:16:21.040
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of other different perspectives. Like that's not true.

1:16:21.120 --> 1:16:23.519
<v Speaker 2>There are other black actors, but most of them appear

1:16:23.560 --> 1:16:26.320
<v Speaker 2>in the background or in dance sequences or I mean

1:16:26.320 --> 1:16:28.000
<v Speaker 2>there are black and brown actors. Like you're saying it

1:16:28.080 --> 1:16:31.439
<v Speaker 2>is not a completely whitewashed movie, but the parts of

1:16:31.439 --> 1:16:35.360
<v Speaker 2>it that are whitewashed are I mean, are Jesus like

1:16:35.640 --> 1:16:41.840
<v Speaker 2>the most famously, poorly incorrectly whitewashed person ever this movie

1:16:41.920 --> 1:16:47.040
<v Speaker 2>does nothing to which And again, like knowing the composer's politics,

1:16:47.080 --> 1:16:51.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm not shocked to hear. And it's just like he's

1:16:51.400 --> 1:16:54.160
<v Speaker 2>lucky that the likes of Ben Vereen and Carl Anderson

1:16:54.200 --> 1:16:56.439
<v Speaker 2>would would touch it. But I agree. I mean, it's

1:16:56.479 --> 1:16:59.200
<v Speaker 2>like there's not that I'm not saying I want this,

1:16:59.640 --> 1:17:01.360
<v Speaker 2>But when you were saying that, where you're like, well,

1:17:01.360 --> 1:17:03.960
<v Speaker 2>clearly he's wrong, I was like, what if Judas got

1:17:03.960 --> 1:17:09.320
<v Speaker 2>like the wickedification of Judas is scariot, you know, like

1:17:09.600 --> 1:17:13.960
<v Speaker 2>I'd watch it Judas wicked because there's like Judas wicked

1:17:14.040 --> 1:17:17.719
<v Speaker 2>moments because I yeah, like we're saying, like, this movie

1:17:17.840 --> 1:17:23.080
<v Speaker 2>is not unsympathetic to Judas's plight, but ultimately they're like

1:17:23.200 --> 1:17:27.640
<v Speaker 2>at the end of the day, you know, the okay, someone,

1:17:27.760 --> 1:17:31.200
<v Speaker 2>which is weird because Stephen Schwartz, who wrote Wicked, also

1:17:31.280 --> 1:17:36.800
<v Speaker 2>wrote Godspell. Oh that was his first musical. So Stephen Schwartz, well,

1:17:36.840 --> 1:17:40.280
<v Speaker 2>actually not you. Someone can someone give me the wickedification

1:17:40.360 --> 1:17:45.879
<v Speaker 2>of Judas? I'd watchy, I'd watch that. But yeah, ultimately,

1:17:46.000 --> 1:17:49.640
<v Speaker 2>it's it's the casting. Like casting a black actor repeatedly,

1:17:50.160 --> 1:17:56.280
<v Speaker 2>particularly opposite a white Jesus is like, be fucking serious, serious, Yeah.

1:17:56.439 --> 1:18:01.679
<v Speaker 3>Director Norman Jewison was asked by the Vatican Press why

1:18:01.760 --> 1:18:06.000
<v Speaker 3>he cast a black actor for Judas, and he said

1:18:06.240 --> 1:18:11.719
<v Speaker 3>that Carl Anderson quote tested along with many others in London,

1:18:12.080 --> 1:18:15.479
<v Speaker 3>and as always happens, the film really told us what

1:18:15.600 --> 1:18:19.080
<v Speaker 3>to do. The test was so successful that there really

1:18:19.160 --> 1:18:21.840
<v Speaker 3>wasn't any doubt in my mind at all that he

1:18:22.000 --> 1:18:24.960
<v Speaker 3>was the most talented actor to play the role unquote,

1:18:25.120 --> 1:18:26.760
<v Speaker 3>and I doubt.

1:18:26.439 --> 1:18:29.160
<v Speaker 2>That he's way better than most of the actors in

1:18:29.200 --> 1:18:29.679
<v Speaker 2>the movie.

1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:32.840
<v Speaker 3>He's very talented. But you do have to consider and

1:18:32.920 --> 1:18:36.479
<v Speaker 3>like and there should be far more casting choices and

1:18:36.640 --> 1:18:42.439
<v Speaker 3>hiring practices and everything based on merit. However, when there

1:18:42.640 --> 1:18:47.120
<v Speaker 3>is a harmful trope that already exists of casting black

1:18:47.160 --> 1:18:51.559
<v Speaker 3>and brown actors to play villains, you gotta be really

1:18:51.560 --> 1:18:52.960
<v Speaker 3>careful with your casting choices.

1:18:53.080 --> 1:18:57.240
<v Speaker 2>So I agree, and like I think that like and

1:18:57.320 --> 1:19:01.240
<v Speaker 2>again it's like we're two white people have this discussion. Yes,

1:19:01.560 --> 1:19:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I feel like it's like if Carl Anderson uncontested, I mean,

1:19:06.760 --> 1:19:09.160
<v Speaker 2>you can't see the Ben Vereen performance, you can only

1:19:09.200 --> 1:19:11.439
<v Speaker 2>hear it. It's also great, But like Carl Anderson, I

1:19:11.479 --> 1:19:14.400
<v Speaker 2>feel like, is the definitive Judas in this musical. And

1:19:14.439 --> 1:19:18.559
<v Speaker 2>it's like, then cast other black actors in other roles,

1:19:19.600 --> 1:19:24.200
<v Speaker 2>like because like speaking to this like long criticism of

1:19:24.240 --> 1:19:27.240
<v Speaker 2>this movie, if that is the only black actor, you're

1:19:27.240 --> 1:19:30.280
<v Speaker 2>giving a prominent role too in the movie.

1:19:30.760 --> 1:19:30.960
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1:19:31.080 --> 1:19:35.880
<v Speaker 2>Norman Jewison's sort of explanation is like, well, that's on you,

1:19:35.960 --> 1:19:36.759
<v Speaker 2>that's your fault.

1:19:38.080 --> 1:19:41.320
<v Speaker 3>I mean, we're saying that the actor who plays Simon,

1:19:42.000 --> 1:19:44.120
<v Speaker 3>Larry Marshall, is a black actor.

1:19:44.479 --> 1:19:48.080
<v Speaker 2>But I but I would also qualify that with not

1:19:48.240 --> 1:19:52.920
<v Speaker 2>to the degree that Judas is wrong, he is similarly

1:19:53.680 --> 1:19:58.640
<v Speaker 2>dismissed as being naive. I think it's like interesting that

1:19:58.800 --> 1:20:03.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, both Judas and Simon are the two apostles

1:20:03.439 --> 1:20:06.679
<v Speaker 2>who are saying the most overtly political things. They're played

1:20:06.680 --> 1:20:11.160
<v Speaker 2>by black actors, and they are both either villainized or dismissed. Right,

1:20:11.280 --> 1:20:16.040
<v Speaker 2>And that said, the Larry Marshall performance, Oh boy.

1:20:16.360 --> 1:20:19.120
<v Speaker 3>Fun, he's dancing his little heart out.

1:20:19.520 --> 1:20:21.640
<v Speaker 2>He was in the full Monty on Broadway.

1:20:22.400 --> 1:20:27.519
<v Speaker 3>Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, he's also only prominently featured in

1:20:28.160 --> 1:20:29.600
<v Speaker 3>one scene.

1:20:29.560 --> 1:20:32.640
<v Speaker 2>To the point where, to be fair, that's most characters

1:20:32.640 --> 1:20:33.360
<v Speaker 2>in this movie.

1:20:33.680 --> 1:20:37.080
<v Speaker 3>That's true. But to the point where at the beginning

1:20:37.120 --> 1:20:40.599
<v Speaker 3>of this episode where I was like, who's Simon again, Like,

1:20:41.240 --> 1:20:42.960
<v Speaker 3>I kind of don't know that character.

1:20:43.240 --> 1:20:46.120
<v Speaker 2>I think theoretically you're supposed to know who it is

1:20:46.200 --> 1:20:48.120
<v Speaker 2>because it's it. But that's a part of the problem

1:20:48.160 --> 1:20:50.600
<v Speaker 2>of like it's assumed that ever that I mean, it

1:20:50.800 --> 1:20:53.479
<v Speaker 2>further shows that this movie is made specifically for a

1:20:53.479 --> 1:20:58.479
<v Speaker 2>Western audience or for a like overtly Christian or Jewish audience,

1:20:58.560 --> 1:21:01.920
<v Speaker 2>because if you are familiar with the story that it

1:21:01.960 --> 1:21:04.479
<v Speaker 2>does not do anything to pull you in on what's

1:21:04.520 --> 1:21:08.439
<v Speaker 2>going on. But I do, yes, it's while Simon is

1:21:08.439 --> 1:21:10.240
<v Speaker 2>played by a black actor, I would say that, Yeah, like,

1:21:10.280 --> 1:21:13.519
<v Speaker 2>Simon is not a prominent character, even if he's a

1:21:13.560 --> 1:21:16.559
<v Speaker 2>memorable you know, it's a memorable number. Yeah, it's the

1:21:16.600 --> 1:21:21.320
<v Speaker 2>best dance number in the movie. It's the most intense

1:21:21.400 --> 1:21:24.439
<v Speaker 2>dance number in the movie. I will say King Herod's

1:21:24.520 --> 1:21:28.599
<v Speaker 2>song is a really fun dance now that you bring

1:21:28.680 --> 1:21:31.200
<v Speaker 2>him up, I talk about it. Let's talk about it.

1:21:31.200 --> 1:21:34.040
<v Speaker 3>I mean, we'll get to Mary Magdalen. But because we're

1:21:34.080 --> 1:21:36.559
<v Speaker 3>kind of on this topic, I would say the queer

1:21:36.600 --> 1:21:41.639
<v Speaker 3>coding what of ponchous Pilot and King Herod ponchous Pilot.

1:21:41.680 --> 1:21:44.600
<v Speaker 2>I feel like for me, poncous Pilot is open to interpretation.

1:21:45.240 --> 1:21:48.679
<v Speaker 2>I definitely think I think more. I guess I didn't

1:21:48.720 --> 1:21:50.320
<v Speaker 2>really think of it as queer coding. As much as

1:21:50.360 --> 1:21:52.920
<v Speaker 2>I thought of it. It was just like, I don't know,

1:21:53.120 --> 1:21:55.640
<v Speaker 2>I thought that ponchous Pilot for me was more complicated,

1:21:55.680 --> 1:21:58.320
<v Speaker 2>like politically, where it's like he's made out to be

1:21:58.439 --> 1:22:01.280
<v Speaker 2>way more sympathetic than makes I guess, But I mean,

1:22:01.920 --> 1:22:08.160
<v Speaker 2>King Herod, what the hell? What the hell? I don't know.

1:22:08.400 --> 1:22:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I would be curious what our listeners think, because I

1:22:13.040 --> 1:22:14.960
<v Speaker 2>do think that there is a read of this that

1:22:15.080 --> 1:22:20.280
<v Speaker 2>is like, this is a beloved dance number. This is like,

1:22:21.160 --> 1:22:24.280
<v Speaker 2>I think, been very embraced for the campy number that

1:22:24.400 --> 1:22:28.000
<v Speaker 2>it seems to want to be. But the fact that

1:22:28.040 --> 1:22:32.920
<v Speaker 2>there is heavy queer coding for seemingly no reason at all,

1:22:33.760 --> 1:22:35.680
<v Speaker 2>is you know, unquestionable.

1:22:35.760 --> 1:22:38.280
<v Speaker 3>I mean I think the reason is that King Herod

1:22:38.640 --> 1:22:42.519
<v Speaker 3>is a villain to Jesus. So they're just going to

1:22:42.600 --> 1:22:45.200
<v Speaker 3>do the thing. Yeah, that a lot of media does

1:22:46.160 --> 1:22:47.240
<v Speaker 3>Mary Magdalen.

1:22:48.000 --> 1:22:52.559
<v Speaker 2>I love Yvonne Elleman. She's so talented, she's so wonderful.

1:22:52.680 --> 1:22:54.920
<v Speaker 2>She also had like a number of hits in I

1:22:54.920 --> 1:22:57.919
<v Speaker 2>think like the seventies and eighties she was like missus

1:22:58.000 --> 1:23:01.760
<v Speaker 2>adult contemporary radio. I guess it's like, unfortunately, there's not

1:23:01.880 --> 1:23:04.519
<v Speaker 2>a ton to say about Mary Magdalene as it pertains

1:23:04.560 --> 1:23:08.680
<v Speaker 2>to this. I genuinely don't know how much more we

1:23:08.800 --> 1:23:11.880
<v Speaker 2>get of Mary Magdalene's story, although we could talk about

1:23:11.960 --> 1:23:15.000
<v Speaker 2>The Da Vinci Code, which is a documentary about Mary Magdalene.

1:23:15.920 --> 1:23:18.120
<v Speaker 3>Yes, feminist text, the da Vinci Code.

1:23:18.240 --> 1:23:21.160
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I mean she's here. It's I will say, like,

1:23:22.240 --> 1:23:25.920
<v Speaker 2>this is a character who is canonically a sex worker,

1:23:26.280 --> 1:23:30.800
<v Speaker 2>who is presented as a human right like, is presented

1:23:30.920 --> 1:23:34.360
<v Speaker 2>as a human who is loved and can be loved.

1:23:34.400 --> 1:23:39.960
<v Speaker 2>And unfortunately that is not something that you frequently see,

1:23:40.040 --> 1:23:45.160
<v Speaker 2>particularly the further back in history you go. So that's good.

1:23:45.720 --> 1:23:51.000
<v Speaker 2>They unfortunately she is really only left to be like,

1:23:51.400 --> 1:23:53.160
<v Speaker 2>I love Jesus. That's like it.

1:23:53.840 --> 1:23:57.879
<v Speaker 3>Most of the scenes she's in, she's tending to Jesus,

1:23:58.520 --> 1:24:02.439
<v Speaker 3>and her whole care is just sort of like there.

1:24:02.600 --> 1:24:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Boyfriend's gonna be killed.

1:24:04.760 --> 1:24:07.719
<v Speaker 3>No, And I'm sure that's a source material problem.

1:24:07.920 --> 1:24:11.040
<v Speaker 2>I no, yeah, I don't. I don't think that they were.

1:24:11.080 --> 1:24:16.200
<v Speaker 2>They very Negdalen was a feminist hero who was reduced.

1:24:16.439 --> 1:24:20.639
<v Speaker 2>But again, it's like, clearly the agenda of this musical

1:24:20.880 --> 1:24:24.800
<v Speaker 2>is to be subversive and to add things, and I

1:24:24.800 --> 1:24:28.080
<v Speaker 2>think like in the case of people like Judas, that

1:24:28.280 --> 1:24:31.679
<v Speaker 2>is done where we do get a clearer look into

1:24:31.720 --> 1:24:37.719
<v Speaker 2>his inner life and specifically his politics. With Mary Magdalene, again,

1:24:37.920 --> 1:24:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just like kind of a classic sexist

1:24:40.160 --> 1:24:43.480
<v Speaker 2>thing that is done, where it's like she her existence

1:24:43.640 --> 1:24:48.600
<v Speaker 2>is political and Jesus's love and acceptance for her is political.

1:24:49.479 --> 1:24:51.200
<v Speaker 3>But how does she feel about anything?

1:24:51.400 --> 1:24:56.320
<v Speaker 2>Exactly? Exactly? And they don't have an interest in it,

1:24:56.400 --> 1:24:58.120
<v Speaker 2>which is like, well, if you look at the number

1:24:58.120 --> 1:25:02.519
<v Speaker 2>of men that wrote and imposed and directed and adapted, like,

1:25:02.840 --> 1:25:06.040
<v Speaker 2>there's just not any It doesn't seem like there's anyone

1:25:06.120 --> 1:25:10.320
<v Speaker 2>with any meaningful interest in how she would feel, which

1:25:10.360 --> 1:25:13.599
<v Speaker 2>is a bummer because it's like a bummer, but like

1:25:14.280 --> 1:25:18.080
<v Speaker 2>because there's space for that here, and it like very

1:25:18.160 --> 1:25:21.320
<v Speaker 2>cleanly fits into what it seems like the agenda of

1:25:21.360 --> 1:25:25.960
<v Speaker 2>this is. But they just are unable to consider her,

1:25:26.040 --> 1:25:31.080
<v Speaker 2>like she's treated like almost a person but then close,

1:25:31.880 --> 1:25:35.920
<v Speaker 2>so close, and yet they cannot conceive of her having

1:25:35.960 --> 1:25:41.040
<v Speaker 2>any feeling about something that is not her boyfriends. Yeah,

1:25:41.080 --> 1:25:45.960
<v Speaker 2>and washing her boyfriend's feet, come on, gross grosbr all

1:25:46.040 --> 1:25:48.600
<v Speaker 2>over him. I think she did canonically do that, but

1:25:48.680 --> 1:25:49.400
<v Speaker 2>also yucky.

1:25:50.040 --> 1:25:52.240
<v Speaker 3>No, there's a scene where she's doing that. They're saying, no.

1:25:52.200 --> 1:25:54.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like in the Bible, I think she's I

1:25:54.640 --> 1:25:56.840
<v Speaker 2>think she's a she's a she's a foot freaking the

1:25:56.880 --> 1:25:57.559
<v Speaker 2>Bible as well.

1:25:58.040 --> 1:25:59.280
<v Speaker 3>See come on.

1:25:59.640 --> 1:26:02.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm not kink shaming, but like, tell me

1:26:02.120 --> 1:26:03.080
<v Speaker 2>something else about her.

1:26:03.560 --> 1:26:08.120
<v Speaker 3>That's the thing. People with a foot kink. They contain multitudes.

1:26:08.400 --> 1:26:14.639
<v Speaker 2>Although she's von Ellman is very fun uh fun gal.

1:26:14.840 --> 1:26:17.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm really I think she's uh, she's got a fun

1:26:17.560 --> 1:26:20.839
<v Speaker 2>story of like how she got involved and then became

1:26:20.880 --> 1:26:25.760
<v Speaker 2>a popular disco artist after this came out, So at

1:26:25.840 --> 1:26:29.760
<v Speaker 2>least we got ivon Ellerman disco. I don't know all

1:26:29.760 --> 1:26:32.520
<v Speaker 2>of this. This movie is also just like so terminally

1:26:32.640 --> 1:26:38.120
<v Speaker 2>seventies in every single way that it's like incomprehensible. You're like,

1:26:38.200 --> 1:26:41.000
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you're just like, what the why would you do that?

1:26:41.160 --> 1:26:42.800
<v Speaker 3>Everyone's wearing bell bottoms.

1:26:43.240 --> 1:26:48.639
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's like it's just like, I mean, yeah, this is

1:26:49.240 --> 1:26:51.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm I'm not the first or last to say this

1:26:51.240 --> 1:26:54.320
<v Speaker 2>butt Andre Loyd Webber musical, But it's just like this

1:26:55.000 --> 1:26:57.400
<v Speaker 2>musical doesn't have two brain cells to rub together. It's

1:26:57.400 --> 1:27:00.639
<v Speaker 2>just it's like it's ridiculous, which is that's why I

1:27:00.680 --> 1:27:03.840
<v Speaker 2>fell in love with it, I guess. But yeah, there's

1:27:03.840 --> 1:27:07.960
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you're like, there there are some actually like oh,

1:27:08.080 --> 1:27:10.320
<v Speaker 2>this is a huge problem with this musical, and like

1:27:10.400 --> 1:27:13.080
<v Speaker 2>let's trace it to why that might be. And then

1:27:13.120 --> 1:27:14.840
<v Speaker 2>there are some things about this musical that you're like,

1:27:14.920 --> 1:27:19.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't fucking know. I don't think he knows is Crokats?

1:27:19.760 --> 1:27:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Like who fucking knows?

1:27:22.360 --> 1:27:25.680
<v Speaker 3>Wow? I mean also worth mentioning that if you're if

1:27:25.680 --> 1:27:30.160
<v Speaker 3>you're considering like the main three players of this movie

1:27:30.360 --> 1:27:36.519
<v Speaker 3>being Jesus, Mary, and Judas, two of those characters are

1:27:36.600 --> 1:27:43.080
<v Speaker 3>played by actors of color. Ivon Elleman is mixed. She's Japanese, Chinese,

1:27:43.080 --> 1:27:46.800
<v Speaker 3>and Irish. But when you consider again a black actor

1:27:46.880 --> 1:27:50.680
<v Speaker 3>playing the villain of the story and a woman of

1:27:50.720 --> 1:27:55.519
<v Speaker 3>color being given basically no characterization, no story, it's the

1:27:55.520 --> 1:27:59.639
<v Speaker 3>illusion of diversity, but it's not meaningful.

1:27:59.360 --> 1:28:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Right, is especially frustrating given like the caliber of a Yeah,

1:28:03.960 --> 1:28:06.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just gonna keep dragging ted Neely, but like,

1:28:07.040 --> 1:28:10.480
<v Speaker 2>given the caliber of performance from Carl Anderson and Vonelleman

1:28:10.680 --> 1:28:15.960
<v Speaker 2>compared to ted Neely, You're like, it's just ridiculous. Yeah.

1:28:16.000 --> 1:28:19.439
<v Speaker 2>I think that, like there's there's so much about this

1:28:19.520 --> 1:28:22.479
<v Speaker 2>movie that just like it is such again that the

1:28:22.520 --> 1:28:24.720
<v Speaker 2>product of its time, that's like a huge product of

1:28:24.760 --> 1:28:28.040
<v Speaker 2>its time issue. I think that I don't know. I'm

1:28:28.120 --> 1:28:31.640
<v Speaker 2>curious how this like new stage adaptation is going to

1:28:32.240 --> 1:28:36.920
<v Speaker 2>work subvert or not subvert. I really, really, really really

1:28:36.960 --> 1:28:41.679
<v Speaker 2>hope that they that this production acknowledges this story's roots

1:28:41.680 --> 1:28:46.200
<v Speaker 2>in Palestine specifically. I don't feel hopeful because of how

1:28:46.680 --> 1:28:52.519
<v Speaker 2>negligent most institutions are in doing so, but but also

1:28:52.640 --> 1:28:56.640
<v Speaker 2>in like like the optics that you're talking about. I

1:28:56.960 --> 1:28:59.840
<v Speaker 2>don't know, I don't know this. There's a part of

1:28:59.840 --> 1:29:03.479
<v Speaker 2>me it's like this this musical is best left in

1:29:03.520 --> 1:29:07.000
<v Speaker 2>the past, right, But that's the problem with musicals is

1:29:07.040 --> 1:29:09.120
<v Speaker 2>that like, if there is a single bop in it,

1:29:09.120 --> 1:29:13.400
<v Speaker 2>it will never go away ever, and there are unfortunately

1:29:13.439 --> 1:29:16.880
<v Speaker 2>bops in this and so this is uh.

1:29:17.200 --> 1:29:18.840
<v Speaker 3>This subjective.

1:29:20.200 --> 1:29:23.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, listen, sorry to be a bitch on your birthday.

1:29:23.080 --> 1:29:26.479
<v Speaker 2>But I okay, yeah, you're being a bitch on my birthday.

1:29:27.520 --> 1:29:28.160
<v Speaker 2>I yeah.

1:29:28.360 --> 1:29:32.080
<v Speaker 3>So now there's there's some catchy tunes, I suppose, yeah,

1:29:32.160 --> 1:29:35.920
<v Speaker 3>but yeah, I mean. Another thing that is not handled

1:29:36.160 --> 1:29:41.439
<v Speaker 3>well is the representation of disability in the movie. The

1:29:41.479 --> 1:29:46.599
<v Speaker 3>scene where Jesus goes to the leper colony that people

1:29:46.720 --> 1:29:51.519
<v Speaker 3>want him to heal them. The characters there, they are

1:29:52.040 --> 1:29:55.320
<v Speaker 3>of course sick and disabled. They are shown as being

1:29:55.760 --> 1:30:01.000
<v Speaker 3>in pain and in desperate need of healthcare should be

1:30:01.120 --> 1:30:04.880
<v Speaker 3>just a basic human right, of course, in an occupation

1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:06.160
<v Speaker 3>like this, it wouldn't be.

1:30:06.240 --> 1:30:09.479
<v Speaker 2>And also, I mean, to be fair, two thousand years

1:30:09.479 --> 1:30:12.040
<v Speaker 2>in medicine. Yeah, it's not like that we can take

1:30:12.040 --> 1:30:13.120
<v Speaker 2>them to the hospital.

1:30:13.360 --> 1:30:16.320
<v Speaker 3>But but but there are they are isolated and they're

1:30:16.360 --> 1:30:19.639
<v Speaker 3>cast out of society. So this is all very understandable. However,

1:30:19.680 --> 1:30:22.360
<v Speaker 3>I would argue that there is another layer that the

1:30:22.400 --> 1:30:24.800
<v Speaker 3>movie adds to this as far as like portraying these

1:30:24.840 --> 1:30:30.320
<v Speaker 3>people as being creepy and grotesque, I agree, in the

1:30:30.360 --> 1:30:33.840
<v Speaker 3>way a lot of media portrays disabled people.

1:30:34.160 --> 1:30:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I agree. And I think it's like yet another

1:30:37.240 --> 1:30:41.920
<v Speaker 2>example of like the moments the things in the there

1:30:42.040 --> 1:30:46.160
<v Speaker 2>is like a limit to what this production is willing

1:30:46.240 --> 1:30:50.080
<v Speaker 2>to subvert exactly, and it's like very telling what it's

1:30:50.160 --> 1:30:54.120
<v Speaker 2>willing to suvert. Yeah, and and and that feel that's

1:30:54.160 --> 1:30:58.280
<v Speaker 2>from what I understand, is of just straight ahead the

1:30:58.439 --> 1:31:03.439
<v Speaker 2>way that group is always portrayed, and this movie does

1:31:03.640 --> 1:31:07.320
<v Speaker 2>nothing to and also to add the shitty Ted Neely

1:31:07.400 --> 1:31:10.720
<v Speaker 2>perform as him being like ew, go away away from me.

1:31:11.479 --> 1:31:14.360
<v Speaker 2>I blamed him for that, but it's still fucking awful.

1:31:14.640 --> 1:31:18.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. The other kind of similar thing is there's a

1:31:19.200 --> 1:31:22.160
<v Speaker 3>very very small part like blink and you'd miss it

1:31:22.240 --> 1:31:24.479
<v Speaker 3>kind of thing. But there's this part of the movie

1:31:24.560 --> 1:31:30.080
<v Speaker 3>where it's during the song where Jesus is asking God

1:31:30.520 --> 1:31:34.040
<v Speaker 3>about why he wants Jesus to die and the.

1:31:34.000 --> 1:31:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Part where the one where he goes, WHOA should I die?

1:31:39.200 --> 1:31:41.040
<v Speaker 2>There's a part I want to say that before I die?

1:31:42.160 --> 1:31:45.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, please do. There's a part where we see a

1:31:45.320 --> 1:31:49.720
<v Speaker 3>few like flashes of still images they're like illustrations and

1:31:49.800 --> 1:31:53.360
<v Speaker 3>paintings that are kind of flashing on screen as he's singing,

1:31:54.200 --> 1:31:58.920
<v Speaker 3>And most of these illustrations are of Jesus being crucified,

1:31:59.560 --> 1:32:02.479
<v Speaker 3>but there are a few quick images, and I'm curious

1:32:02.520 --> 1:32:05.519
<v Speaker 3>if you spotted this, Jamie, there are a few quick

1:32:05.560 --> 1:32:12.680
<v Speaker 3>images of like onlookers witnessing the crucifixion that resemble the

1:32:12.840 --> 1:32:17.320
<v Speaker 3>very anti Semitic way that Jewish people would be depicted

1:32:17.479 --> 1:32:21.600
<v Speaker 3>in like Nazi and other anti Jewish propaganda.

1:32:22.000 --> 1:32:24.720
<v Speaker 2>I did not catch that, but I do feel like

1:32:24.760 --> 1:32:28.160
<v Speaker 2>that ties into what we were talking about earlier about

1:32:28.200 --> 1:32:34.479
<v Speaker 2>how little this movie pushes back on villainizing Jewish people

1:32:34.520 --> 1:32:39.960
<v Speaker 2>in general and blaming them for Jesus's death, while like

1:32:40.040 --> 1:32:42.599
<v Speaker 2>what this musical is also doing and like the limits

1:32:42.720 --> 1:32:47.679
<v Speaker 2>to its empathy is that it was like everyday Jewish

1:32:47.720 --> 1:32:51.479
<v Speaker 2>people that forced the occupying force to do this, which

1:32:51.520 --> 1:32:53.840
<v Speaker 2>is like, if you you know, think about it for

1:32:53.920 --> 1:32:56.920
<v Speaker 2>a microsecond, is fucking ridiculous. But I didn't notice that

1:32:56.960 --> 1:32:59.280
<v Speaker 2>they also put a visual to it that's terrific.

1:32:59.360 --> 1:33:02.679
<v Speaker 3>It's literally three quick images, maybe two to or three.

1:33:03.240 --> 1:33:06.559
<v Speaker 3>They flash on screen for less than a second each,

1:33:06.760 --> 1:33:08.880
<v Speaker 3>So it's again like if you're not looking at the

1:33:08.920 --> 1:33:11.080
<v Speaker 3>screen at that exact moment, you won't catch it.

1:33:11.120 --> 1:33:13.360
<v Speaker 2>But because yeah, I know the sequence you're talking about.

1:33:13.360 --> 1:33:17.519
<v Speaker 2>But it's like and again, it's like, these are images

1:33:17.560 --> 1:33:21.280
<v Speaker 2>that exist, but why are you choosing to show them?

1:33:21.320 --> 1:33:23.759
<v Speaker 2>Like you can there there's a way to show Again,

1:33:23.800 --> 1:33:27.320
<v Speaker 2>it's like what I blinked and I missed? I confess

1:33:28.040 --> 1:33:31.400
<v Speaker 2>because otherwise it's like it seems like it's trying to

1:33:31.640 --> 1:33:35.559
<v Speaker 2>say like this, you know, all of the emphasis on

1:33:35.600 --> 1:33:40.960
<v Speaker 2>the violence that you see in popular art, which that

1:33:41.200 --> 1:33:44.080
<v Speaker 2>fucking sucks because I thought that that idea was kind

1:33:44.120 --> 1:33:47.479
<v Speaker 2>of effective, where like that's a familiar image, But like

1:33:47.960 --> 1:33:50.760
<v Speaker 2>choosing to cut to those anti Semitic depictions of this,

1:33:50.920 --> 1:33:56.800
<v Speaker 2>like centuries long antisemitic propagation is like what you know, again,

1:33:56.960 --> 1:33:59.920
<v Speaker 2>what are we doing? What is the agenda of this movie?

1:34:00.040 --> 1:34:02.920
<v Speaker 2>And no one can answer this, No one can answer

1:34:03.000 --> 1:34:04.800
<v Speaker 2>this question, and so maybe we shall put it in

1:34:04.800 --> 1:34:09.679
<v Speaker 2>the trash But I and yet I'm saying it two nights,

1:34:09.680 --> 1:34:11.160
<v Speaker 2>what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do

1:34:11.360 --> 1:34:14.479
<v Speaker 2>with Cynthia Arrivo? Can you fix this? And the answer

1:34:14.520 --> 1:34:16.240
<v Speaker 2>is I don't think so, I don't think it's fixable.

1:34:16.520 --> 1:34:17.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but.

1:34:18.560 --> 1:34:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, everybody, quick update from the future. I saw Jesus

1:34:25.040 --> 1:34:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Christ Superstar with my mommy at the Hollywood Bowl last

1:34:28.840 --> 1:34:31.599
<v Speaker 2>week and ooh, I have thoughts. It was amazing. But

1:34:31.680 --> 1:34:34.080
<v Speaker 2>also I have thoughts, as you've been hearing throughout this

1:34:34.240 --> 1:34:36.840
<v Speaker 2>entire episode. The first thing I wanted to mention that

1:34:36.920 --> 1:34:39.760
<v Speaker 2>we talk about throughout the course of the episode, but

1:34:39.800 --> 1:34:41.479
<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to address with a little bit more

1:34:41.520 --> 1:34:46.719
<v Speaker 2>specificity is talking to the specific moment that this movie

1:34:46.840 --> 1:34:51.639
<v Speaker 2>was produced in mostly the West Bank, but with the

1:34:51.680 --> 1:34:55.960
<v Speaker 2>cooperation and approval of the Israeli government. Obviously we talked

1:34:55.960 --> 1:34:58.800
<v Speaker 2>about that throughout the episode, but specifically I wanted to

1:34:59.560 --> 1:35:03.880
<v Speaker 2>make no of the fact that, particularly in Gaza, that

1:35:04.160 --> 1:35:08.160
<v Speaker 2>occupation was not just ongoing going back to the Nakba

1:35:08.280 --> 1:35:11.320
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen forty eight, but also as of nineteen sixty seven,

1:35:11.520 --> 1:35:16.439
<v Speaker 2>there was an escalation of violence that led to Gaza

1:35:16.520 --> 1:35:22.120
<v Speaker 2>being more aggressively occupied than ever before by Israel, and

1:35:22.240 --> 1:35:26.960
<v Speaker 2>in ways that are directly traced to right now. So

1:35:27.080 --> 1:35:30.679
<v Speaker 2>I just want to, you know, take every opportunity to

1:35:30.720 --> 1:35:34.160
<v Speaker 2>not talk about Palestine as if this started two years ago,

1:35:34.360 --> 1:35:37.639
<v Speaker 2>and that it is a particularly ugly time for this

1:35:37.680 --> 1:35:41.639
<v Speaker 2>production to have taken place in conjunction with the Israeli government,

1:35:41.640 --> 1:35:47.479
<v Speaker 2>because Israel was actively and loudly escalating the occupation, and

1:35:47.560 --> 1:35:53.200
<v Speaker 2>so any act of cooperation with that is horrific. As

1:35:53.240 --> 1:35:57.880
<v Speaker 2>far as the Cynthia Christ Superstar production goes, yes, tell

1:35:57.920 --> 1:36:01.280
<v Speaker 2>me about it. So it was a no one to

1:36:01.320 --> 1:36:07.439
<v Speaker 2>hear that Cynthia Arivo Superstar is incredible, like Ted Neely

1:36:07.439 --> 1:36:10.519
<v Speaker 2>found dead in a ditch, like she she's I mean,

1:36:10.560 --> 1:36:13.840
<v Speaker 2>she's like one of the greatest performers living. I'm pretty

1:36:13.840 --> 1:36:19.040
<v Speaker 2>sure she's so amazing. Her her rendition of Gusemini was

1:36:19.200 --> 1:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>like I'd never heard the song before, Like not to

1:36:22.880 --> 1:36:26.880
<v Speaker 2>be over dramatic, but like it's whatever the bull fits

1:36:27.160 --> 1:36:31.320
<v Speaker 2>seventeen thousand people. Everyone was crying. There was a like

1:36:31.439 --> 1:36:36.400
<v Speaker 2>standing ovation. It was like low key religious experience, Like

1:36:36.439 --> 1:36:40.400
<v Speaker 2>it was really really She's incredible. Weirdly, and I wasn't

1:36:40.439 --> 1:36:43.360
<v Speaker 2>expecting this because I don't next to nothing about this man.

1:36:44.040 --> 1:36:48.519
<v Speaker 2>Adam Lambert is Judas really good, really really like he

1:36:48.760 --> 1:36:52.040
<v Speaker 2>totally made the part his own. I just like I

1:36:52.160 --> 1:36:57.479
<v Speaker 2>was really taken aback at how awesome he was. I

1:36:57.520 --> 1:37:04.799
<v Speaker 2>really really liked him. Ral Esparsa, who is a iconic

1:37:04.960 --> 1:37:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Broadway actor played Pilot. And here's where I'm going to

1:37:08.400 --> 1:37:12.120
<v Speaker 2>be controversial and say I did not like his pilot

1:37:12.400 --> 1:37:16.720
<v Speaker 2>really very much. There were clearly roll Aesparsa heads in

1:37:16.800 --> 1:37:20.040
<v Speaker 2>the house, Kitlyn, I think. I think the thing he's

1:37:20.080 --> 1:37:24.600
<v Speaker 2>best known for is that song being a Love You

1:37:24.600 --> 1:37:25.120
<v Speaker 2>know that one?

1:37:25.760 --> 1:37:26.200
<v Speaker 3>Nope?

1:37:26.560 --> 1:37:29.519
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well then I sang for a reason. That is

1:37:29.840 --> 1:37:31.920
<v Speaker 2>what he's best known for the mainstream Like, he's an

1:37:31.920 --> 1:37:34.200
<v Speaker 2>incredible singer, a credible performer, but I just did not

1:37:34.439 --> 1:37:39.280
<v Speaker 2>like his approach to Pilot. I'll be perfectly honest with you.

1:37:39.439 --> 1:37:41.519
<v Speaker 2>I and it actually, even though we talk about throughout

1:37:41.560 --> 1:37:44.680
<v Speaker 2>the episode, how and this is obviously still true that

1:37:44.920 --> 1:37:50.559
<v Speaker 2>Pilot is like overly empathized with in this rendition, it

1:37:50.640 --> 1:37:55.400
<v Speaker 2>did make me appreciate Barry Dennan's performance as Pilot much

1:37:55.479 --> 1:37:58.360
<v Speaker 2>more because like, if that's going to be the approach

1:37:58.400 --> 1:38:01.719
<v Speaker 2>of the production, you've got to sell it, and Barry

1:38:01.760 --> 1:38:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Dennon does sell it, and I don't think her all

1:38:04.400 --> 1:38:08.560
<v Speaker 2>Asparsa did. Moving on to Mary Magdalen played by Philip A.

1:38:08.600 --> 1:38:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Su who most famously played Eliza in Hamilton, that I

1:38:12.720 --> 1:38:16.360
<v Speaker 2>think is like her biggest credit she's great, Like we

1:38:16.400 --> 1:38:19.800
<v Speaker 2>talked about throughout the episode, she's great as Mary, and

1:38:19.840 --> 1:38:22.679
<v Speaker 2>Mary has basically nothing to do, so there's an upper

1:38:22.720 --> 1:38:25.000
<v Speaker 2>limit to what she is able to do. But it

1:38:25.120 --> 1:38:28.720
<v Speaker 2>was great and it was also really cool seeing they

1:38:28.720 --> 1:38:32.200
<v Speaker 2>were not leaning away from the lesbian undertones of Cynthia

1:38:32.240 --> 1:38:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Arrivo and Philip A. Su as Jesus and Mary. It

1:38:35.840 --> 1:38:39.680
<v Speaker 2>was great, nice background of the production, I guess is

1:38:40.400 --> 1:38:46.120
<v Speaker 2>in the expected obnoxious, racist, misogynous ways. There was a

1:38:46.240 --> 1:38:50.240
<v Speaker 2>wave of Fox News backlash to Cynthia Arrivo's casting as

1:38:50.360 --> 1:38:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Jesus because YadA YadA, a black woman as Jesus. Never

1:38:55.840 --> 1:38:58.920
<v Speaker 2>mind what we've talked about. What you know, Jesus was

1:38:59.000 --> 1:39:04.200
<v Speaker 2>not white, and Cynthia Rivo's fucking Cynthia Arrivo. You should

1:39:04.200 --> 1:39:07.519
<v Speaker 2>be thanking her for being willing to do it. I

1:39:07.520 --> 1:39:10.200
<v Speaker 2>think she's next playing Dracula on the West End, which

1:39:10.240 --> 1:39:12.960
<v Speaker 2>is like, she's just she's just doing whatever.

1:39:13.280 --> 1:39:14.760
<v Speaker 3>I love that. I know.

1:39:14.800 --> 1:39:17.360
<v Speaker 2>I kind of want my mom because my mom would

1:39:18.000 --> 1:39:20.559
<v Speaker 2>die for her. And my mom was like, do you

1:39:20.600 --> 1:39:22.799
<v Speaker 2>think we could go? I was like, oh my god, okay,

1:39:23.280 --> 1:39:26.280
<v Speaker 2>too much, too much. We can't go international for Cynthia Rivo.

1:39:26.320 --> 1:39:29.880
<v Speaker 2>It's too much. But so that was a background to

1:39:29.920 --> 1:39:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the production. It was very very well reviewed, it was

1:39:31.960 --> 1:39:35.160
<v Speaker 2>really good. But I do feel like, and maybe I

1:39:35.200 --> 1:39:38.080
<v Speaker 2>talked about this earlier in the episode, there are very

1:39:38.240 --> 1:39:43.679
<v Speaker 2>glaring missed opportunities, particularly doing Jesus Christ Superstar right now.

1:39:44.760 --> 1:39:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Not acknowledging the genocide is I think pretty inexcusable. And

1:39:50.360 --> 1:39:53.559
<v Speaker 2>it's not just something that I that didn't happen, which

1:39:53.640 --> 1:39:56.719
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately I wasn't surprised, but like, wasn't something I saw

1:39:56.840 --> 1:40:00.400
<v Speaker 2>in the press surrounding it at all, which I think

1:40:00.439 --> 1:40:03.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of it speaks to the media, but it also

1:40:03.200 --> 1:40:07.760
<v Speaker 2>speaks to how americanized and divorced from its context that

1:40:07.840 --> 1:40:12.120
<v Speaker 2>this musical has become over time, when if you're paying

1:40:12.160 --> 1:40:15.200
<v Speaker 2>attention to what the musical is, it's about resistance in

1:40:15.200 --> 1:40:19.160
<v Speaker 2>the face of an oppressive force, which if that's not Palestine,

1:40:19.240 --> 1:40:22.559
<v Speaker 2>what is, you know, and taking place in the exact

1:40:22.600 --> 1:40:26.320
<v Speaker 2>same location. It's inexcusable to put a massive production of

1:40:26.360 --> 1:40:29.360
<v Speaker 2>this together and not call attention to that, if not

1:40:29.600 --> 1:40:33.960
<v Speaker 2>actively do something. But that is not what this production did,

1:40:34.000 --> 1:40:39.559
<v Speaker 2>and in fact, they cast a pretty prominent Zionist leaning

1:40:39.640 --> 1:40:44.280
<v Speaker 2>celebrity to play King Herod that being Josh Gadd. Oh, yeah,

1:40:44.360 --> 1:40:48.280
<v Speaker 2>that was not something I was. I mean, I guess

1:40:48.320 --> 1:40:51.360
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't know Josh Gadd's politics because I famously

1:40:51.400 --> 1:40:54.639
<v Speaker 2>hate Josh Gadd anyways, and it turns out I hate.

1:40:54.720 --> 1:40:57.439
<v Speaker 3>Fully Born on the podcast before we and.

1:40:57.520 --> 1:41:00.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so whoever emailed me saying that I that I

1:41:00.160 --> 1:41:04.360
<v Speaker 2>was wrong to joh Gad, fuck you. But but yeah,

1:41:04.400 --> 1:41:09.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, not only to completely not acknowledge the genocide

1:41:09.320 --> 1:41:12.200
<v Speaker 2>that is happening from the side of the Israeli government

1:41:12.680 --> 1:41:16.120
<v Speaker 2>in this musical that takes place in the same exact location,

1:41:16.880 --> 1:41:21.880
<v Speaker 2>they cast a prominent Zionist to be a prominent role

1:41:21.920 --> 1:41:23.799
<v Speaker 2>in it. So I won't even speak to his performance,

1:41:23.840 --> 1:41:29.799
<v Speaker 2>because who fucking cares? That said, Cynthia Arrivo and Adam Lambert,

1:41:30.439 --> 1:41:32.640
<v Speaker 2>they should take that show in the road, and they

1:41:32.640 --> 1:41:35.880
<v Speaker 2>should take it on the road with a production that

1:41:36.160 --> 1:41:40.439
<v Speaker 2>is not afraid to discuss the context that is happening

1:41:40.479 --> 1:41:47.560
<v Speaker 2>in because it felt very, very glaring and like basically

1:41:47.640 --> 1:41:52.960
<v Speaker 2>centrist stuff is just like, well, can't we just have fun,

1:41:53.040 --> 1:41:55.360
<v Speaker 2>you guys? And you're like not, when you're showing the

1:41:55.400 --> 1:42:02.439
<v Speaker 2>story of Jesus' crucifixion, you fucking dumbass that said I

1:42:02.520 --> 1:42:05.519
<v Speaker 2>laughed to cry. And that's my update.

1:42:06.680 --> 1:42:11.559
<v Speaker 3>Thank you. I'm glad it was an enjoyable time. It was,

1:42:11.960 --> 1:42:14.320
<v Speaker 3>and now we will travel back to the.

1:42:14.240 --> 1:42:18.320
<v Speaker 2>Past before I had to see Josh Gadden person bless

1:42:18.320 --> 1:42:18.759
<v Speaker 2>her heart.

1:42:19.320 --> 1:42:25.320
<v Speaker 3>So so back to the originally recorded episode. Do you

1:42:25.320 --> 1:42:26.599
<v Speaker 3>have anything else you want to talk about?

1:42:28.360 --> 1:42:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so, no, I yeah, this is definitely

1:42:32.520 --> 1:42:35.559
<v Speaker 2>like it's a movie that is deeply problematic that had

1:42:35.600 --> 1:42:39.240
<v Speaker 2>a very strong effect on me as a kid. I

1:42:39.280 --> 1:42:42.000
<v Speaker 2>do like, I think that there are elements to this

1:42:42.080 --> 1:42:46.280
<v Speaker 2>movie that I still really appreciate that are mostly connected

1:42:46.320 --> 1:42:50.160
<v Speaker 2>to Carl Anderson, honestly, and I think just like further,

1:42:52.560 --> 1:42:54.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't know it is it like when you think

1:42:54.640 --> 1:42:57.760
<v Speaker 2>of a dated project, this is just this is like

1:42:57.800 --> 1:43:00.000
<v Speaker 2>the most nineteen seventy three they Oh yeah. The last

1:43:00.000 --> 1:43:02.400
<v Speaker 2>I was going to say is again, it's like there

1:43:02.479 --> 1:43:08.800
<v Speaker 2>is a vague moment of being anti Vietnam War. Yeah,

1:43:08.920 --> 1:43:13.120
<v Speaker 2>and I like that. I like that. Again, It's it's unclear.

1:43:13.720 --> 1:43:15.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm sure in nineteen seventy three is very

1:43:15.400 --> 1:43:18.240
<v Speaker 2>clear where there is a moment where Judas is pursued

1:43:18.280 --> 1:43:19.240
<v Speaker 2>by tanks.

1:43:19.640 --> 1:43:21.800
<v Speaker 3>Which would have been Israeli tanks.

1:43:21.600 --> 1:43:23.680
<v Speaker 2>Which would have been is again, so it's like the

1:43:23.920 --> 1:43:27.519
<v Speaker 2>it means nothing, but that was the intention of it,

1:43:27.560 --> 1:43:31.880
<v Speaker 2>and it's like, yeah, I mean, and that's again where

1:43:31.920 --> 1:43:35.519
<v Speaker 2>it's like the project just fails for that reason, where

1:43:35.560 --> 1:43:38.640
<v Speaker 2>it's like, if you're using occupying tanks to make an

1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:42.200
<v Speaker 2>anti war statement, you're not doing anything. You're doing worse

1:43:42.240 --> 1:43:45.920
<v Speaker 2>than nothing. So as far as the movie goes, it's

1:43:45.960 --> 1:43:48.799
<v Speaker 2>like impossible to get past. As far as the musical,

1:43:48.840 --> 1:43:51.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean the musical as far as I know, you know,

1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:53.679
<v Speaker 2>it was just in the West End and then on Broadway,

1:43:54.200 --> 1:43:56.840
<v Speaker 2>and it was specifically the Norman Jewis in production that

1:43:57.000 --> 1:44:00.479
<v Speaker 2>was making all these calls. But either way, it ages

1:44:02.080 --> 1:44:05.840
<v Speaker 2>not great. I guess my final thought is I love

1:44:05.920 --> 1:44:06.679
<v Speaker 2>Carl Anderson.

1:44:07.000 --> 1:44:10.519
<v Speaker 3>He does a great job RIP. The last thing I

1:44:10.680 --> 1:44:13.880
<v Speaker 3>want to do is just a call to action. Something

1:44:13.920 --> 1:44:17.760
<v Speaker 3>I've done recently is compile a list of links on

1:44:17.800 --> 1:44:22.080
<v Speaker 3>my link tree from families in Gaza who have reached

1:44:22.080 --> 1:44:25.599
<v Speaker 3>out to me on Instagram asking for help. And so

1:44:25.720 --> 1:44:30.720
<v Speaker 3>I've basically just started compiling all of those and donating and.

1:44:30.680 --> 1:44:33.280
<v Speaker 2>We'll link that below as well, and we will make

1:44:33.320 --> 1:44:37.040
<v Speaker 2>contributions from our Patreon to that as well. I hope

1:44:37.160 --> 1:44:40.840
<v Speaker 2>that most of our listeners are already you know, understand

1:44:40.840 --> 1:44:44.240
<v Speaker 2>what is going on in our following reliable sources about that.

1:44:44.240 --> 1:44:46.360
<v Speaker 2>That would be another I think call to action is

1:44:47.200 --> 1:44:52.080
<v Speaker 2>to divest from news sources that are not covering, that

1:44:52.160 --> 1:44:56.840
<v Speaker 2>are either not covering or downplaying or both sides yng

1:44:57.439 --> 1:45:01.920
<v Speaker 2>what is objectively and has been for so long, an

1:45:02.000 --> 1:45:05.400
<v Speaker 2>active genocide of the Palestinian people. So not only giving

1:45:05.439 --> 1:45:09.879
<v Speaker 2>directly to families who need direct aid, but actively pushing

1:45:09.960 --> 1:45:14.760
<v Speaker 2>back on these false, half assed narratives that we see

1:45:14.960 --> 1:45:16.759
<v Speaker 2>pushed at the highest level.

1:45:17.280 --> 1:45:21.280
<v Speaker 3>Also follow the BDS movement, the boycott, divestment and sanctions.

1:45:21.960 --> 1:45:27.080
<v Speaker 3>It's a Palestinian lead movement that has a list of

1:45:27.320 --> 1:45:33.679
<v Speaker 3>companies to boycott because that is something that does enact change.

1:45:34.080 --> 1:45:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's something direct you can do. Right now,

1:45:37.520 --> 1:45:42.160
<v Speaker 2>we will link all of those below. And yeah, I

1:45:42.200 --> 1:45:48.880
<v Speaker 2>think as far as ending this episode, I will be

1:45:48.960 --> 1:45:54.679
<v Speaker 2>making a five hundred dollars donation to PCRF for my birthday.

1:45:54.680 --> 1:45:56.639
<v Speaker 2>If anyone would like to join me in doing that,

1:45:57.000 --> 1:46:01.160
<v Speaker 2>please do. They are and have been doing really, I mean,

1:46:01.200 --> 1:46:03.000
<v Speaker 2>as we've talked about many times on the show, they're

1:46:03.040 --> 1:46:06.120
<v Speaker 2>doing really important work. Yeah, this movie does not pass

1:46:06.160 --> 1:46:06.840
<v Speaker 2>the bachel test.

1:46:07.120 --> 1:46:08.599
<v Speaker 3>Sure doesn't even come close.

1:46:08.680 --> 1:46:12.080
<v Speaker 2>And I don't even really kind of want to skip

1:46:12.080 --> 1:46:14.080
<v Speaker 2>the nipples. I don't think we deserve, we don't need

1:46:14.120 --> 1:46:17.799
<v Speaker 2>to give nipples to movies that were made with Israel exactly.

1:46:18.400 --> 1:46:21.680
<v Speaker 2>But it doesn't pass the Backel test. And it's and

1:46:21.720 --> 1:46:22.960
<v Speaker 2>that's my birthday.

1:46:22.760 --> 1:46:26.200
<v Speaker 3>And that's your birthday. Happy birthday, Jamie. Thank you, Thank

1:46:26.240 --> 1:46:31.000
<v Speaker 3>you for listening. Listeners. Don't forget about our upcoming tour

1:46:31.320 --> 1:46:32.320
<v Speaker 3>in the Midwest.

1:46:32.640 --> 1:46:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, we will be there in just a couple of weeks.

1:46:35.360 --> 1:46:39.800
<v Speaker 2>We will be in Indianapolis, Chicago, Madison, and Minneapolis. We

1:46:39.880 --> 1:46:45.040
<v Speaker 2>hope to see you there talking about the Star Wars prequels.

1:46:45.240 --> 1:46:48.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry, sorry, and you're welcome.

1:46:48.640 --> 1:46:52.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we'll see you there. Bye bye.

1:46:56.520 --> 1:46:59.760
<v Speaker 3>The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1:46:59.840 --> 1:47:03.719
<v Speaker 3>k Lyndarante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1:47:03.840 --> 1:47:07.000
<v Speaker 3>by Moe laboord Our theme song was composed by Mike

1:47:07.120 --> 1:47:11.479
<v Speaker 3>Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch

1:47:11.640 --> 1:47:14.600
<v Speaker 3>is designed by Jamie loftis and a special thanks to

1:47:14.640 --> 1:47:19.040
<v Speaker 3>Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1:47:19.120 --> 1:47:20.640
<v Speaker 3>Linktree Slash Bechdelcast