Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women
Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zephynbast start changing
Speaker 1: with the Bechdelcast.
Speaker 2: Jamie and Caitlin here, we're going on tour, and we're
Speaker 2: not going on tour just anywhere. We're going on tour
Speaker 2: in the Midwest and soon covering the Star Wars prequels.
Speaker 2: We're gonna just cover all three at once. You know
Speaker 2: it's gonna be fine. There's been so much talk about
Speaker 2: the prequels over the years, often on podcasts we really like,
Speaker 2: often by writers we really like, but never from an
Speaker 2: intersectional feminist perspective. And so we're going on this tour
Speaker 2: to quickly realize why that is.
Speaker 3: So you can see us discuss all three prequels in
Speaker 3: one show in fabulous outfits, in wonderful coseplay. You don't
Speaker 3: want to miss this. We will be in Indianapolis for
Speaker 3: Let's Fest on Saturday, August thirtieth for a matinee show
Speaker 3: and then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening
Speaker 3: that can't be missed.
Speaker 2: Called Jamie Loftus and her pet rock solve the world's
Speaker 2: problems in which that will happen.
Speaker 3: I can't wait.
Speaker 2: Then the very next day, we are going to Chicago.
Speaker 2: You asked, we listened. We will be at the Den
Speaker 2: Theater on August thirty. First, that show is going to
Speaker 2: start around seven, seven to fifteen pm. It's an evening show,
Speaker 2: a sexy little evening show. We're so excited to go
Speaker 2: to Chicago and the Den Theater is so beautiful, so
Speaker 2: Chicagoans do not miss it.
Speaker 3: And then then we will be in Madison, Wisconsin on Thursday,
Speaker 3: September fourth. I believe that's a seven thirty show, and oh,
Speaker 3: we're so excited to be in Madison.
Speaker 2: And then finally we will be ending the tour in Minneapolis,
Speaker 2: Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater on Sunday, September seventh.
Speaker 2: That is another evening show. It starts at seven o'clock.
Speaker 2: So if you have been one of the many people
Speaker 2: asking us to come to your town for the last
Speaker 2: ten years we're doing it, we would love to see you.
Speaker 2: The shows are super fun. As we've said, if you're
Speaker 2: a matron, specifically, if you're a member of our Patroon
Speaker 2: aka Matreon. You get a free little gift at the
Speaker 2: merch table when you come to say hi after the show.
Speaker 2: It's a blast, It's gonna be a super good time.
Speaker 2: We love Siena. You can get all tickets at link tree,
Speaker 2: slash Bectel cast exqueeze me, We'll see you there.
Speaker 3: Enjoy the episode. Cast Jamie christ superstart. Happy birthday, Jamie.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Wow, I'm feeling so christ Like today. I'm
Speaker 2: feeling I'm feeling like I'm gonna like do unto others.
Speaker 2: That's kind of the vibe for today. I know that
Speaker 2: that's OK. He didn't say that, right, I don't know.
Speaker 3: That's just the golden rule, which.
Speaker 2: I feel like, I feel like, you know, I'm sure
Speaker 2: he'd agree. Yeah, I'm sure he wouldn't be like, no,
Speaker 2: nor do not do unto others? Okay, Welcome to my birthday.
Speaker 2: Welcome to my birthday.
Speaker 3: Happy to be here.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here too. I think maybe I
Speaker 2: will actually succeed in going to Knotsberry Farm on my
Speaker 2: birthday this year. We'll see I failed last year, but
Speaker 2: maybe this is the year.
Speaker 3: Can I invite myself? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Because you're a season pass holder, right, Yeah? Yeah, if
Speaker 2: we are successful in going, Yeah, we should go with
Speaker 2: a damn group because I haven't been in three years.
Speaker 3: I think it's my new favorite theme park.
Speaker 2: It's so fun. It's so fun because the theming is
Speaker 2: just like, sure, yeah, why not? I walk around and
Speaker 2: you're like, hmmm, old timey ghost why not?
Speaker 3: Of course?
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 2: Welcome. Okay, so this is my main feed birthday episode.
Speaker 2: So if this is your first episode Wild points of Entry,
Speaker 2: but for what it's worth, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: My name is Jamie, it's my birthday.
Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin. It's not my birthday.
Speaker 2: Brutal, brutal, and that must be hard for you today.
Speaker 3: Yeah what if I judas you because I'm resentful that
Speaker 3: it's not my birthday.
Speaker 2: Well, then you would be low key the coolest character
Speaker 2: in the movie Superstar. It's really I will say, Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ Superstar a very flawed movie. Will be talking about
Speaker 2: it a lot today. But I feel like the movie
Speaker 2: is basically like say what you will about Judas, but
Speaker 2: he kind of is like the best. I feel like
Speaker 2: this movie is like pro Judas.
Speaker 3: I mean, this might be blasphemous.
Speaker 2: Judas had a point.
Speaker 3: I was rooting for Judas much more than I was
Speaker 3: rooting for Jesus in the context of this movie.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, no, like literally, okay, there's so much Okay,
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ Superstar. Oh okay, this is the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: This is are intersectional feminist movie podcast, which there actually
Speaker 2: is a lot to talk about because we're sort of
Speaker 2: talking about Christianity and Judaism writ large. There's so much
Speaker 2: to talk about today. So if you don't know what
Speaker 2: the Bexwel test is, look it up. You know what.
Speaker 2: I'm not your I'm not your fucking mom. It's my birthday. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: Does the Bible pass the Bexels test? I would wager not,
Speaker 2: But let's google it. Oh, let's google it. Oh that's
Speaker 2: actually a really good, annoying question.
Speaker 3: I bet it kind of does.
Speaker 2: But it's a long book.
Speaker 3: Hopefully, I would say the Bible is not a feminist text.
Speaker 2: Certainly not, certainly not. Okay, I'm not the first Oh okay,
Speaker 2: the Bible barely passes the Bechdel test, so it gets
Speaker 2: a barely pass. To be fair, this is Google AI
Speaker 2: that you can't turn off, so it could be wildly
Speaker 2: incorrect and just melted an ice cube. While the Book
Speaker 2: of Ruth is often cited as a clear example, other
Speaker 2: books like Exodus, Mark and Luke are also mentioned as
Speaker 2: containing conversations between women about something other than a man. However,
Speaker 2: many argue that these instances are sparse and often involve
Speaker 2: women talking to men or the topic of conversation indirectly
Speaker 2: relates to men. So I would say, maybe it doesn't pass.
Speaker 2: This is we've had this. How many times have we
Speaker 2: had this conversation where it's like, well, they don't name
Speaker 2: a man, but a man is implied, but we're talking
Speaker 2: about the ramifications of a man's actions. So yeah, let's
Speaker 2: right at the top. Does the Bible pass the backseel test?
Speaker 2: Maybe technically, but spiritually no.
Speaker 3: Spiritually no, I would say.
Speaker 2: Spiritually no. And if that's a hot take to you,
Speaker 2: I don't know, turn the show off, turn the show off.
Speaker 2: I don't know what to tell you. Okay, let's just
Speaker 2: get into it, because this is a text. This is
Speaker 2: a text. There is so much going on with Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ Superstar that I almost regret choosing it. But I
Speaker 2: do think this is like my last I think because
Speaker 2: I was going through the list of all of our
Speaker 2: episodes from the last decade, and I think that this
Speaker 2: is the last movie that, like really heavily imprinted on
Speaker 2: me as a kid that we haven't covered. So it's necessary.
Speaker 2: But I'm curious, Caitlin, what is your history with Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ Superstar.
Speaker 3: Well, I saw this movie like many during the Great
Speaker 3: Caitlin movie binge of two thousand and five.
Speaker 2: And that's interesting that it made the cut. Honestly, I
Speaker 2: feel like this movie doesn't have a huge footprint outside
Speaker 2: of like Sunday School, I know, but.
Speaker 3: Yeah, somehow it made the list. I think it was
Speaker 3: just referenced enough that I was like, I guess I
Speaker 3: should see it.
Speaker 2: I mean, and Norman Jewison's a big director. I get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I took it upon myself to watch it
Speaker 3: and Jamie, I know it's your birthday, so I want
Speaker 3: to be kind and gentle. But I would say this
Speaker 3: movie appeals to absolutely zero of my sensibilities and I
Speaker 3: don't like it at all.
Speaker 2: It's definitely not your kind of movie. It unfortunately is
Speaker 2: my exact kind of movie. There's just extraneous dance numbers.
Speaker 2: It doesn't really make sense.
Speaker 3: It's loud, it's hard to follow. The songs are not catchy,
Speaker 3: they're just very repetitive. I don't like Jesus's voice that.
Speaker 2: I thoroughly agree with that Ted Neely, I just like,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I know that that's me
Speaker 2: five D chessing, being like they made Jesus unlikable so
Speaker 2: that you would root for Judas. But I do think
Speaker 2: it's a skill issue, unfortunately, and it's too bad because
Speaker 2: it seems like Ted Neely is like from what I
Speaker 2: had learned about him, he seems like a lovely person whatever, whatever,
Speaker 2: which you can't say for everyone involved, because let's not
Speaker 2: forget this was baby Andrew Lloyd Weber's little like Money project,
Speaker 2: and he did, in fact, just steal the Batman theme.
Speaker 2: This movie is so fun, Okay, can I can I
Speaker 2: get into my history?
Speaker 3: Yes? Please?
Speaker 2: This movie is I'm not gonna say it's good. Although
Speaker 2: I don't think it's bad. I think it is deeply, deeply,
Speaker 2: deeply flawed. I think and I could be talked out
Speaker 2: of this. I do think that this movie and this
Speaker 2: musical in general, has its heart in the right place.
Speaker 2: I think that it was There are many elements of
Speaker 2: it that are subversive in a good way, and many
Speaker 2: elements of it that are subversive in a counterproductive and
Speaker 2: sometimes just straight up confusing way. But I saw this
Speaker 2: movie for the first time when I was I think
Speaker 2: in fifth grade, because I feel like we've like talked
Speaker 2: about our respective histories with religion, but like my family
Speaker 2: was all over the place, like I was baptized Catholic,
Speaker 2: but then we were kind of like, no, it's too
Speaker 2: dark in those churches, and so we stopped. And then
Speaker 2: I went to for a good chunk of my youth,
Speaker 2: except for when we were briefly into Wickedism. We went
Speaker 2: to like a I think technically Protestant but a congregational church,
Speaker 2: which is basically the shorthand of saying it was the
Speaker 2: only church in my city that was friendly to queer people,
Speaker 2: and so it was I mean, I will say, like,
Speaker 2: I feel lucky that I don't have a ton of
Speaker 2: like religious trauma or baggage in my life because my
Speaker 2: church was like relatively loosey, goosey and friendly, which you
Speaker 2: can tell because they showed this to me in instead
Speaker 2: of like walking us through the Crucifixion story, they literally
Speaker 2: turned this movie on and they're like, so that is
Speaker 2: basically what happened, and we were all like, oh, oh,
Speaker 2: so this musical is very important to me. It also
Speaker 2: was a big musical for my mom. She it was
Speaker 2: her like vacuuming music. Oh, for all of my childhood.
Speaker 2: So we like we were in Andrew Lloyd Webber household.
Speaker 2: We listened to a lot of Phantom, a lot of
Speaker 2: Jac's Superstar. We skipped over Cats for some reason. That
Speaker 2: was where the line was drawn. But yeah, I deeply
Speaker 2: loved this movie. And Carl Anderson as Judas was one
Speaker 2: of the biggest, most formative crushes of my life. Okay,
Speaker 2: I was obsessed with him, and I was really sad
Speaker 2: he died in two thousand and two, which was shortly
Speaker 2: after I learned he existed. It really so whatever grade
Speaker 2: I was in in two thousand and one, I was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: he's my crush. We're going to make it work, even
Speaker 2: though he's seventy or whatever, even though he could be
Speaker 2: my peepot, We're going to make it work. And then
Speaker 2: he died. But I still think it's like one of
Speaker 2: my Like, Carl Anderson is Judas, and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff going on here, but like It's still one
Speaker 2: of my favorite performances to watch, I think ever, which
Speaker 2: is very nostalgia field, but it's also like he's so good.
Speaker 2: I just think he's so amazing. A lot of this
Speaker 2: is Carl Anderson Fueld, And then you go back to
Speaker 2: the original Broadway cast and Judas. I mean this also
Speaker 2: Ted Neely in the original Broadway cast, which again mistake,
Speaker 2: but you had Ben Vereen as the original Judas. So like,
Speaker 2: no matter who, like, Judas is the best character, and
Speaker 2: I feel like the musical knows that because he's Jesus
Speaker 2: has exactly one good song, and that's a problem. In
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ Superstar, he has one good song.
Speaker 3: What do you classify as his one good song?
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna I'm gonna say it's it's a skip
Speaker 2: for me, But fans of Jesus Christ Superstar do like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say this so wrong because because also I
Speaker 2: would say that Jesus Christ Superstar is probably like I
Speaker 2: did research for this to see what the interpretation is,
Speaker 2: but for a long time I was just like, this
Speaker 2: is a documentary and everything I know about the last
Speaker 2: days of Jesus' life, like it's in this documentary that
Speaker 2: I watched Gissemine the song where he's like, what should
Speaker 2: I that song?
Speaker 3: Oh, that's the name of the garden? I think where
Speaker 3: they are the Last Supper.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that song. I get why people like it.
Speaker 2: I still am like, it's I just Ted Neely's voice.
Speaker 2: I find so grading, unfortunately, but like Carl Anderson's Got Heaven,
Speaker 2: he's got the opener and the closer of the movie.
Speaker 2: So you know, I don't know if there's anyone who's
Speaker 2: ever argued that this movie is overtly anti Judas, but
Speaker 2: I like, Judas has the first and the last song,
Speaker 2: and they're both doing laps around any of Jesus's songs.
Speaker 2: Mary Magdalen, both of her songs are better than Jesus.
Speaker 2: Any of Jesus's songs the villains have better. I mean,
Speaker 2: the villains usually have better songs, but like you're gonna
Speaker 2: tell me Jesus has a better song than King Herod,
Speaker 2: And where do we even start with that?
Speaker 3: Okay, King Herod's song is my favorite.
Speaker 2: It is so like you're like, is it homophobic? Probably?
Speaker 2: But is it iconic? Definitely? Like I don't understand, Like
Speaker 2: I don't know what they were doing there, and the
Speaker 2: best part is Joshua Mistelle, who is Zero Mistelle's son.
Speaker 2: So Broadway Netbo.
Speaker 3: Baby, they don't know who those people are on.
Speaker 2: Okay, let me take well. It is actually important because
Speaker 2: Joshua Mustelle is the child of Zero Mistyle, who both
Speaker 2: originated Tevia and Fiddler on the Roof on Broadway and
Speaker 2: also originated Max bialis Stock or no, he played Max
Speaker 2: Bialistock in the original mel Brooks Producers. So he is
Speaker 2: both an iconic Jewish actor and he was like blacklisted
Speaker 2: in the fifties. Like he's an interesting guy, and josh
Speaker 2: Mistell is his son and whatever, he's the NEPO baby
Speaker 2: that's who plays Harod King Herron.
Speaker 3: Ok.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Joshua Mistell is straight. But but I don't know.
Speaker 2: It was so weird. I was like watching because he's
Speaker 2: still alive and has given interviews about it, and many
Speaker 2: times he's been asked like, what what was that all about?
Speaker 2: And he, to his credit, is like, I'm not really sure.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know, and I cannot speak
Speaker 2: on behalf of the queer community. But I like it.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. I like it. It's
Speaker 2: so good. And like, would I remove that number. I
Speaker 2: can't say that I would. I look forward to it
Speaker 2: every time. Yeah, but like why is it why? I mean,
Speaker 2: why is anything like anything in this movie?
Speaker 3: That's an excellent question. Why are the like high priests
Speaker 3: dressed the way they are with a big deal?
Speaker 2: Well, I can so that. Okay, we're just getting right
Speaker 2: into it. That is. I wasn't aware of this, but
Speaker 2: I was looking into like because I assumed that this
Speaker 2: movie was considered like blasphemous by just about everybody when
Speaker 2: it came out, because I was like, Jesus isn't supposed
Speaker 2: to be groovy or whatever, And it wasn't as controversial
Speaker 2: as I thought it would be. It was a little
Speaker 2: more well like openly embraced. But there were elements of it.
Speaker 2: And this gets into the fact that we'll talk about
Speaker 2: this that this movie was shot mostly in Palestine and
Speaker 2: majority in the West Bank, but the Israeli government has
Speaker 2: its fingerprints all over it in terms of the permits
Speaker 2: required to shoot the movie.
Speaker 3: They also, I believe, provided some of the funding for
Speaker 3: the production. It seems that way Yes offered a rebate
Speaker 3: and then the director was like, wow, thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Israel yes for doing that for us, and hey, other
Speaker 3: Hollywood directors, you should go shoot your film in Israel
Speaker 3: and like just like this glowing endorsement of this illegal
Speaker 3: settler colonial ethno.
Speaker 2: State, which is particularly ridiculous when you consider it the
Speaker 2: majority of the movie was filmed in the fucking West Bank,
Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, that's I mean, we'll talk about the
Speaker 2: production of this movie because it's deeply fucked and in
Speaker 2: some converts of this movie to this day, the word
Speaker 2: Palestine will not show up in life, like where was
Speaker 2: this movie shot? Because there's a lot of and this
Speaker 2: is you know, out of the control of the production
Speaker 2: at this point because it was fifty years ago. But
Speaker 2: there are still Zionist publications or Zionist sympathizing publications that
Speaker 2: will say this movie was completely shot in Israel, with
Speaker 2: you know, completely, no just nothing, no no acknowledgment of
Speaker 2: where this movie actually was shot and what the history
Speaker 2: it is, which, of course, considering what this movie is
Speaker 2: ostensibly about, is pretty fucking ridiculous. Where occupation is referenced constantly, Yes,
Speaker 2: so we'll get into that, but oh, I forgot where
Speaker 2: I was going with that originally. But but yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean this this musical is I mean deeply, deeply, deeply
Speaker 2: a product of its time, and I yeah, there was.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it was a very difficult one to prep for.
Speaker 2: You know, obviously, I mean hopefully if you're a listener
Speaker 2: of this show, you're well aware of this already. But
Speaker 2: you know, any of this movie or productions ties with
Speaker 2: Israel or any pro Israel rhetoric surrounding this movie is
Speaker 2: obviously horseshit. I yeah, but before prepping for this, I
Speaker 2: feel like it's a two prong thing, or it was
Speaker 2: in my prep where it was like trying to get
Speaker 2: to the bottom of how is this movie produced and
Speaker 2: how is it produced like you're saying, Caitlin like in
Speaker 2: cooperation and actually directly endorsed with Israel. Oh that was
Speaker 2: what I was going to say earlier. Is that later
Speaker 2: on Israel kind of disavowed this movie, which who fucking cares?
Speaker 2: But I will say that the thing that and again,
Speaker 2: like listeners, let me know if I'm off base here,
Speaker 2: but one of the things in this movie that does
Speaker 2: genuinely seem to be anti Semitic is that costume choice
Speaker 2: you were talking about with the high priests, because those
Speaker 2: are Jewish high priests that and again I am not
Speaker 2: an expert on literally any element of this because I
Speaker 2: watched it as a documentary as a kid. But but
Speaker 2: that there are a lot of Jewish communities that were
Speaker 2: sort of turned like, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, monocultured,
Speaker 2: caricaturized maybe exactly like the characters of Caiaphas and Honest
Speaker 2: have been criticized as being overtly anti Semitic, and from
Speaker 2: what I could tell that that does appear to definitely
Speaker 2: be true where they were just like, oh, every Jewish
Speaker 2: community is the same, and we're gonna, you know, just
Speaker 2: sort of create these vague villains who are based on
Speaker 2: historical people. But for the for the movie is just
Speaker 2: like it really leans into I think a pretty anti
Speaker 2: Semitic place. So it's there's just there's just there's a lot.
Speaker 2: It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah, So will you
Speaker 2: tell me the story of Jesus came?
Speaker 3: I sure will. I know so much about it. Let's
Speaker 3: take a quick break first, and then we'll come back
Speaker 3: for the recap.
Speaker 2: And we're back.
Speaker 3: So here's the recap. If it sounds like I'm talking
Speaker 3: about the events of this famous Jesus story is if
Speaker 3: I don't really know what I'm talking about or who
Speaker 3: any of these people are, or if it sounds like
Speaker 3: I've never read the Bible or been to a Christian church.
Speaker 2: People are gonna be so shit. It's because that has
Speaker 2: never read the Bible? How have we not read the Bible?
Speaker 2: I tried to do a little bit of backgrounded, like
Speaker 2: how Lucy Goosey is this adaptation. I'll do my best,
Speaker 2: but yeah, ultimately, neither of us are religious, so this
Speaker 2: is going to be a challenge, yes.
Speaker 3: And also again, the movie's kind of hard to follow,
Speaker 3: especially in the sense that characters will just suddenly show
Speaker 3: up on screen and they're not really introduced and you
Speaker 3: don't know who they are in the context of the
Speaker 3: rest of the narrative, and you're just.
Speaker 2: Like, I think, who is that? I think that this movie?
Speaker 2: That's I think that that's like a part of this
Speaker 2: movie's agenda is that it is assumed that everyone knows
Speaker 2: who everyone in this is, and like, if you are
Speaker 2: not familiar with the Bible, this movie is gonna be
Speaker 2: hard to right. It just genuinely is. I never watched
Speaker 2: it before with anything other than just like a glaze
Speaker 2: over my eyes and we'll talk about it. But I
Speaker 2: was kind of struck with, like, how overtly political. Like
Speaker 2: a good chunk of the lyrics in this musical are yes.
Speaker 3: And that's the other thing. There is no spoken dialogue.
Speaker 3: Every word is a song, and that's just for some
Speaker 3: reason hard for my brain to pay attention to.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like it's operatic, and I think that I'm
Speaker 2: if I'm not miss saying, I think that JAC Superstar
Speaker 2: started as like a concept album. Yes, so yeah, so
Speaker 2: it's basically written as an opera.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I kind of like that, but I also feel like
Speaker 2: it's easier for and maybe this is like our generation problem,
Speaker 2: but it's like I feel like when everything is sung,
Speaker 2: there are so many like large chunks of this movie
Speaker 2: that I was like, oh, I guess I never really
Speaker 2: listened to what they were saying, because you're just like, dude,
Speaker 2: do do do do do do do do, like you're
Speaker 2: like whatever, But then you listen to it, You're like, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2: I've been watching this my whole life, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I just didn't really listen to what Simon was saying.
Speaker 3: I don't even know who Simon is.
Speaker 2: I got you, I got you.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, here's the story. We are in a
Speaker 3: desert in Palestine. It's sort of two thousand years ago,
Speaker 3: but it's also sort of contemporary.
Speaker 2: It's the seventies. It's like it's it's I think that
Speaker 2: the it's supposed to be a bunch of hippies staging a.
Speaker 3: Play, right because as shows up, Yeah, and people jump
Speaker 3: off the bus and get into like costume slash character
Speaker 3: for the movie that we're about to watch. Among them
Speaker 3: is Jesus Christ ever heard of him? Yeah, played by
Speaker 3: Ted Neely and.
Speaker 2: A white Jesus. Which, well, it's that's like one of
Speaker 2: the I think most obviously wrong things with this, Like
Speaker 2: two Well, I should have said in our prep that
Speaker 2: in two days from now, my mom and I are
Speaker 2: going to see Cynthia Rivo as Jesus at the Hollywood Bowl. WHOA, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was really excited because she's gonna it's gonna be
Speaker 2: the first time that I'll be like, consider Jesus and
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ superstar. But Cynthia Riva is playing Jesus and
Speaker 2: Adam Lambert is playing Judas. But for the two most
Speaker 2: I think influential productions of this there is a white
Speaker 2: Jesus and a black Judas. So in the original productions
Speaker 2: Ted Neelie and Ben Vereen and this production it's Ted
Speaker 2: Neely and Carl Anderson. This has been I think, like
Speaker 2: corrected over time. I think the last production of this
Speaker 2: that made a cultural wave was when John Legend played
Speaker 2: Jesus like six or seven years ago. So this is
Speaker 2: like a habit that has been corrected over time. But
Speaker 2: white Jesus, white Jesus, yes.
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed. Also I read that Ted Neely was like
Speaker 3: the Jesus understudy in the stage musical, but he did
Speaker 3: like he had gotcha other parts within the stage production
Speaker 3: and then was cast as Jesus in the film. But
Speaker 3: either way, still involved in both.
Speaker 2: Bless his heart. Wish he wasn't, wish he wasn't so irritating.
Speaker 3: Okay, So we meet the cast as actors.
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, they're like community theater. I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: And then we meet Judas played by Carl Anderson, who
Speaker 3: sings a song about Jesus.
Speaker 2: Okay, the outfit is great. I used to really want
Speaker 2: the orange tied I Judas fit. Okay, because it's both
Speaker 2: stylish and comfortable. He sings Heaven on Their Minds, which
Speaker 2: is I think, for my money, the best song in
Speaker 2: the musical. To me, it's the best song in the musical.
Speaker 2: But again a very political song right that I think
Speaker 2: like pretty quickly gets us into Judas's head in an
Speaker 2: interesting way where he's just like, Jesus, you're doing too much, Jesus.
Speaker 3: That's his way. He's like, I feel like maybe you've
Speaker 3: lost sight of the cause and the message that you've
Speaker 3: been preaching, Jesus. And yes, I think maybe you're a
Speaker 3: false messiah and.
Speaker 2: Jac superstar like Jesus. The Jesus of this production is
Speaker 2: is so bitchy. Jesus is a is a huge bitch
Speaker 2: in this one, and I think it's funny. My favorite
Speaker 2: scene when I was okay, well, one of my favorite
Speaker 2: scenes that I would like to laugh at with my
Speaker 2: cousins is when Jesus, I mean I know that this
Speaker 2: is like also in the Bible, but that when he
Speaker 2: goes to the temple and he's like he hates it.
Speaker 2: He's acting like he like it's like a Wendy's franchise
Speaker 2: and he's like, this sucks. I hate it. Get it.
Speaker 2: Stop everyone's having fun. Stop. I know that that's at
Speaker 2: the point of the scene, but I feel like that's
Speaker 2: how he plays it, where he's like, ah, he's just
Speaker 2: like freaking out at the all. Yes, yes, it's funny. Okay. Anyways,
Speaker 2: Judas is like Jesus is doing too much.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, there are Roman soldiers trooping around because.
Speaker 2: In crop tops, mind in little tank tops.
Speaker 3: Tank tops because of course, the Roman Empire has occupied
Speaker 3: hide this land.
Speaker 2: Which ironically this movie is not shy, does not shy
Speaker 2: away from talking about while actively making deals with Israel
Speaker 2: to make the movie happen.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, right, exactly. So then we cut to Jesus
Speaker 3: and his disciples singing.
Speaker 2: What's the buzz? Oh my god, so funny. All the
Speaker 2: cuts in this movie are hard cuts because you just
Speaker 2: never know what you're gonna cut to. Sure, I think
Speaker 2: the Apostles really come off as real dufes in this movie.
Speaker 2: They seem like goofy little guys that are there fanboys,
Speaker 2: which I guess is kind of like no offense is
Speaker 2: kind of what the Apostles were, where like Simon is
Speaker 2: kind of the street team. Uh you know there, you could,
Speaker 2: you could, but what's the buzz? Is again one of
Speaker 2: the many songs in this musical that I both have
Speaker 2: a lot of affection for and is like straight up annoying.
Speaker 2: It's annoying song. A lot of these songs and Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ Superstar are straight up annoying.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you've said that.
Speaker 2: And I celebrate that. I all of like most of
Speaker 2: the things that are like campy about this movie, even
Speaker 2: when they're bad. I love and What's the Buzz is
Speaker 2: an annoying song that will get stuck in your head
Speaker 2: for the rest of.
Speaker 3: Your life unfortunately. Yes, yeah, anyway, so we're seeing that.
Speaker 3: And then we also meet Mary Magdalene played by Yvonne Elleman.
Speaker 2: Oh right, because she was the one person who was
Speaker 2: actually the main role on Broadway I think, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: and then Ted Neely was the understudy. You're totally right, yeah, yah.
Speaker 3: So Mary is there tending to Jesus as she does
Speaker 3: throughout the entire movie, patting his forehead with a damp cloth,
Speaker 3: et cetera.
Speaker 2: She's a bit of a foot freak in this interpretation.
Speaker 3: And then Judas shows up to be like, Jesus, why
Speaker 3: are you hanging out with Mary? She's a sex worker
Speaker 3: and she doesn't really fit in with your vibe and
Speaker 3: your crowd, and Jesus is like, bitch, who are you
Speaker 3: to judge anyone exact? And he was right to say it,
Speaker 3: and he was right to say it.
Speaker 2: Judas, you know, Judas is a problematic fave.
Speaker 3: He's a character Jesus warf.
Speaker 2: Maybe he is Judas. I'm so glad you said that
Speaker 2: Judas is a swarf because it's true. It's true, it's true,
Speaker 2: and he needs to get over himself. He had like
Speaker 2: I just and then with Jesus and Judas, I do
Speaker 2: think that you're supposed to want to be like at
Speaker 2: certain points like kiss, like there are especially with the betrayal.
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess they do kiss. They kind of
Speaker 2: famously kiss.
Speaker 3: And that happened in the Bible. I had to look
Speaker 3: it up, but.
Speaker 2: That you know, Oh no, yeah, there's been wars over
Speaker 2: that kid. It's like it's a very famous it's like Titanic,
Speaker 2: followed by this, yeah, by Judas kissing Jesus before yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, followed closely by the end of Shrek one where
Speaker 3: Shrek and Fiona kiss.
Speaker 2: I know, and some people disagree. So people think Shrek
Speaker 2: just beats out. She's a centis by just a little bit,
Speaker 2: but you know, interpret as.
Speaker 3: You will exactly. So Judas is carrying on, and then
Speaker 3: Jesus is like, I'm sorry, but he is whining constantly.
Speaker 2: He's a bitch. He's bitchy. He's like, you will not
Speaker 2: find me arguing this.
Speaker 3: He's like, no one even cares if I come or go.
Speaker 2: He's no disciples, He's he's like frown he's pouting, he's frowning.
Speaker 2: He's like, no one listens to be that. Later, when
Speaker 2: he's crowded by people who are poor. I mean, I
Speaker 2: do think there's a larger interpretation that I is. It's
Speaker 2: so weird because I feel like there is like some
Speaker 2: nuance in the way that it's written that Ted Neely
Speaker 2: just does not telegraph at all. Because when he's like
Speaker 2: give me by space, like he has so many like
Speaker 2: annoying little he's just leave me.
Speaker 3: I have a lot to say about that scene.
Speaker 2: We'll get there, but we'll get there.
Speaker 3: Yes, anyway, He's like he's whining, and his disciples are like,
Speaker 3: how can you even say that, Jesus, we love you.
Speaker 3: Then we cut to Caiaphas, a Jewish high priest, the
Speaker 3: one with the wild hat, and then he has a
Speaker 3: he has a little buddy, what's his name Annis?
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, And their whole appeal lyric, like you know,
Speaker 2: musically is high voice, low voice, and as a kid,
Speaker 2: for me, I was like, this is cartoon, this is
Speaker 2: giving cartoon. Their songs in particular, I for sure never
Speaker 2: listened to the lyrics because I was just like ha,
Speaker 2: big and small.
Speaker 3: I had to pay such hard attention. And here's what
Speaker 3: I have deduced that they're singing about.
Speaker 2: And this first, their first song, was added for the movie.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I did read that one of their songs
Speaker 3: was an addition.
Speaker 2: Believe it's this one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. So basically what they're singing about is they
Speaker 3: don't like that Jesus is going around and calling himself
Speaker 3: a king and something has to be done about him.
Speaker 3: Then we cut back to Jesus and now Mary is
Speaker 3: putting some ointment and murdror on him, and maybe Frankinsonse
Speaker 3: is involved, I don't know. But she's singing everything's all right,
Speaker 3: Everything's fine. I forget the melody of.
Speaker 2: That everything's up. Yes, uh yeah. Unfore I well, this
Speaker 2: is more of a like classic bectal cast discussion. But like,
Speaker 2: it is unfortunate that like such a historically compelling character
Speaker 2: as Mary Magdalene is reduced to a handful of like
Speaker 2: Jesus is so awesome. I love kind of songs. I
Speaker 2: love him, but I think that von elleman performance is
Speaker 2: like really good. Her second song, in particular, I don't
Speaker 2: know how to love him. I've was obsessed with that song.
Speaker 2: I have like a very strong memory of walking around
Speaker 2: my neighborhood thinking of like a kid in my neighborhood,
Speaker 2: I had a crush on, like saying that song to me.
Speaker 2: I don't know how to love Cory, go wow. Corey
Speaker 2: was my Jesus at the time, brave, and I didn't
Speaker 2: know how to love Corey. He didn't He certainly didn't
Speaker 2: know how to love me. He didn't know I existed.
Speaker 3: Okay, anyway, So Judas is there also, and he's like,
Speaker 3: what the hell, Jesus, why did you spend money on
Speaker 3: that expensive murror when we could have used it to
Speaker 3: feed the poor? And Jesus is basically like, relax, guy,
Speaker 3: there's not much we can do for poor people. We
Speaker 3: should just appreciate the nice things we have. And I'm like,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, which.
Speaker 2: Is like a very broad Yeah, I'm curious for Bible
Speaker 2: heads out there, how oversimplified is this? Because it's like
Speaker 2: I feel like what I kept losing in the plot,
Speaker 2: or like what was not clearly communicated for those of
Speaker 2: us that aren't Bible heads. Right, I know that Jesus
Speaker 2: knew he was going to die soon, like this whole time,
Speaker 2: he knows he's about to die, But I feel like
Speaker 2: that is not very clearly telegraphed in ways that like,
Speaker 2: I think in this scene he is being callous, but
Speaker 2: also he seems needlessly callous in like sometimes he's being
Speaker 2: like I don't have time. I don't have enough time
Speaker 2: in my life to fix this gigantic systemic problem. But
Speaker 2: that was never clearly communicated because I think it's assumed
Speaker 2: that we know that already. But he just comes off
Speaker 2: looking like, ugh, I don't know, I don't know. You're
Speaker 2: like Jesus.
Speaker 3: It just seems like he doesn't care about poor people.
Speaker 2: Which is but canonically not true about him. Sure, exactly,
Speaker 2: it's weird.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's bizarre. Then the next day, Caiaphas and a
Speaker 3: council of priests gather to discuss Jesus how he's dangerous
Speaker 3: because they think the Romans will kill all of the
Speaker 3: Jews because of Jesus's antics, so he has to die
Speaker 3: for the sake of everyone else.
Speaker 2: And I think it's like a play bike. I mean
Speaker 2: on that first song between because I really had to
Speaker 2: listen to the lyrics of the Caiaphas and Anna's songs
Speaker 2: because it's so cartoty and distracting. But I'm pretty sure
Speaker 2: that and again historically I've seen this has been disputed.
Speaker 2: I don't really know, and I know that Kiaphas and
Speaker 2: Annas are the characters that are most commonly accused of
Speaker 2: being more overtly anti Semitic, as well as the way
Speaker 2: that the crowds are depicted towards the end of the movie,
Speaker 2: which we'll get to, because I think the way that
Speaker 2: ponscious Pilot is characterized in this movie is like extremely generous,
Speaker 2: which we'll get to, and that is another common criticism
Speaker 2: of this movie. But I'm pretty sure in their first song,
Speaker 2: Kiaphas is both saying what he says to the council
Speaker 2: or whatever you call a group of priests. I don't
Speaker 2: know where He's like, Jesus is dangerous and we have
Speaker 2: to kill him. But I think he's also doing that
Speaker 2: with the knowledge that like, if he's the one that
Speaker 2: makes that call, it will be good for him politically.
Speaker 3: Sure, Yeah, in any case. Jesus meanwhile and his followers
Speaker 3: are traveling through the desert and they're singing, Ho, Sanna, Hey, Sana.
Speaker 3: I don't know what they're saying.
Speaker 2: They love his ass, they love him. They're like yes
Speaker 2: Jesus and say war.
Speaker 3: And then in a different musical number, his disciples are
Speaker 3: singing Christ you.
Speaker 2: Noah, I love you, oh my God, oh my God.
Speaker 2: That saw that dance number is unhinged. Okay, so that's Simon's.
Speaker 2: So I had to check this because again, like all
Speaker 2: of this movie is just like a blur in my
Speaker 2: brain where I know all the words, but what any
Speaker 2: of them mean. So Simon is one of the Apostles,
Speaker 2: which I guess I never really connected before. He is,
Speaker 2: from what I can gather, kind of the street team
Speaker 2: of the Apostles, where.
Speaker 3: He's leading the flash mobs, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's doing the flash mob. He's like the social
Speaker 2: media director of you know, Christianity sort of, I guess.
Speaker 2: But so I think that the implication is that, like
Speaker 2: Simon has been away spreading the word of Jesus and
Speaker 2: is bringing all of these people back as followers of Jesus.
Speaker 2: And again, I'm like, I know that there's a listener
Speaker 2: being like wrong, Jamie, but I really really try. I
Speaker 2: just need you to know that I tried.
Speaker 3: I tried.
Speaker 2: I think my understanding of and I think this is
Speaker 2: like a criticism that I have of the movie where
Speaker 2: Simon is coming back and says in that song like
Speaker 2: he is implying that Jesus's presence could be a huge
Speaker 2: difference in liberating the Jews from the Romans, and Jesus
Speaker 2: is sort of like, well, I'm going to die in
Speaker 2: three days. But Simon says, yeah, Christ, what word do
Speaker 2: you need to convince you that you've made it? And
Speaker 2: you're easily as strong as the filth from Rome who
Speaker 2: rape our country and who've terrorized our people for so long.
Speaker 2: Keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of
Speaker 2: hate at room, you will rise to a greater power.
Speaker 2: We will win ourselves a home. So a lot of
Speaker 2: loaded language there, but I think like that the core
Speaker 2: of what he's saying is that Jesus' presence could be
Speaker 2: a liberatory force against an oppressive regime and Jesus like
Speaker 2: with regularity is just sort of like no, shrug, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're like, well, what's the point of you then, Jesus.
Speaker 2: But I feel like that's not the musical seems to
Speaker 2: feel like Simon is wrong, and the musical seems to
Speaker 2: feel like any like and that I mean, Judas famously
Speaker 2: is wrong about certain things, but that like Judas's perspective
Speaker 2: of like I don't know, like I just feel like
Speaker 2: any like larger liberation that is proposed in this movie
Speaker 2: is dismissed as being naive. Again, I'm like, I guess
Speaker 2: that that's I don't know if that's more criticism of
Speaker 2: this musical's interpretation or the Bible itself. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but I know that it bothers me. And it sucks
Speaker 2: to see any character that proposes leveraging someone's celebrity and
Speaker 2: influence to liberate people as being like, well, no, we're
Speaker 2: not going to do that, as ridiculous you know, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was barely following any of that.
Speaker 2: Well, it's also because yeah, they're doing like jazz hands
Speaker 2: throughout this like pretty serious political lyrics, so I had
Speaker 2: to It sucks because like when you're reading about this musical,
Speaker 2: you also have to like vet the source considerably because
Speaker 2: you're like, this could be any number of like overtly
Speaker 2: religious interpretations of it. And I was like, is there
Speaker 2: And I was able to find a few places that
Speaker 2: I felt like were credible that we're able to help
Speaker 2: me through this because because also, I mean, I know
Speaker 2: that this comes up in the conversation around this movie
Speaker 2: all the time, like early to mid seventies was weirdly
Speaker 2: I still can't figure out why, but like God and
Speaker 2: Jesus musicals, people were like, let's do it more because
Speaker 2: this came out the same year as Godspell.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a bunch of movies with like strong
Speaker 3: religious overtones and like specifically Christian overtones in this era. Also,
Speaker 3: like Monty Python's Life of Brian came out sometime around.
Speaker 2: Here, And if anyone can help me understand why, because
Speaker 2: that is not something I've I've seen it obviously presented
Speaker 2: as like, wow, this was happening a lot. I'm like,
Speaker 2: surely if it was happening that many times and like
Speaker 2: massively successful, but like what was going I don't know.
Speaker 2: I also think that this movie is like there's a
Speaker 2: few moments where it's trying to make comment on the
Speaker 2: Vietnam War in different places. It's like it's trying to
Speaker 2: do I just don't understand why this, like noween seventy
Speaker 2: three was like Jesus Musical year, but but it was.
Speaker 2: I don't know, and I'm not I don't. Honestly, god'spell
Speaker 2: is none of my business. I don't know.
Speaker 3: I've never seen it, don't know it neither.
Speaker 2: I know that Victor Garber plays Jesus, so that's.
Speaker 3: Fun Victor of Titanic fame anyway.
Speaker 2: But it's somehow a musical that I find even more
Speaker 2: annoying than this one.
Speaker 3: Okay, so all right, So then we meet Roman official
Speaker 3: Ponscious Pilot. He has heard about this Jesus fellow, and
Speaker 3: I think at this point he doesn't really know what
Speaker 3: to make of him. I think again, the songs are
Speaker 3: hard to pay attention to.
Speaker 2: Panta's Pilot is straight up like emo boy, like it's
Speaker 2: so bizarre to me, and I was this was something
Speaker 2: I attempted to look into. It's like, is this at all?
Speaker 2: Is this a normal way to portray Pontcious Pilot as
Speaker 2: sort of this? Because I feel like throughout the movie
Speaker 2: Pancha's Pilot, who is like a Roman leader. I think
Speaker 2: that you could say, like at the time, he would
Speaker 2: have been the most powerful person in the movie in
Speaker 2: an immediate sense, but they make it out to be.
Speaker 2: And I guess that this is not super unusual. And
Speaker 2: there's a lot of Western interpretations of pontchous Pilot that
Speaker 2: sort of fall along these lines as like that he
Speaker 2: was and again I don't agree with this, but I
Speaker 2: also don't know the Bible that he was portrayed as
Speaker 2: capitulating to whatever would make him most popular, versus actually
Speaker 2: feeling strongly that Jesus needed to be killed. But again,
Speaker 2: the way that it's like telegraphed in this adaptation to
Speaker 2: me makes him seem tortured and sympathetic in a way
Speaker 2: that I find really really off putting. This is like
Speaker 2: and I didn't know this still today, but like that
Speaker 2: That's another common criticism of the movie is that like
Speaker 2: poncious Pilot, I feel like, is the kind of like
Speaker 2: just such an obvious villain that I don't really I
Speaker 2: don't have a particular interest as if you were, and like, well,
Speaker 2: did he feel conflicted about murdering people? Like who gives
Speaker 2: a fuck. But I feel like this movie kind of
Speaker 2: gives a fuck.
Speaker 3: Right, because he's an agent of the occupation.
Speaker 2: The Roman is the occupation, right, So like that's the thing,
Speaker 2: is like he is the occupation. And so if I'm
Speaker 2: understanding the hierarchy correctly, here, ponscious Pilot is like a
Speaker 2: Roman leader. He is the occupation. He has these various minions.
Speaker 2: He sends Jesus off to King Herod because King Herod
Speaker 2: and again, please correct me if you're wrong, but like
Speaker 2: King Herod, I think politically was considered King of the
Speaker 2: Jews at that time, which is why his whole song
Speaker 2: is making fun of Jesus for saying he's king of
Speaker 2: the Jews because he's like, I'm King of the Jews
Speaker 2: when I think historically he may not have even been Jewish,
Speaker 2: but he was like an enforcer of the occupation. And
Speaker 2: then you have Caiaphas and Annas who are Jewish priests
Speaker 2: who are trying to appease the Roman Empire. But like, yeah,
Speaker 2: poncous Pilot is the most powerful person in the movie.
Speaker 2: So I don't understand why. I mean, I understand why
Speaker 2: because that happens in populist movie, making all the time.
Speaker 2: It's why you have fucking like Darth Vader narratives and
Speaker 2: like people love to be like, well, this like oppressive fascist,
Speaker 2: Like what's going on in his head? How did he
Speaker 2: get there? But I don't know because this music is
Speaker 2: such a mess. I just the performance is fine, you know,
Speaker 2: my hat off to Bury Dennin, but it's just like
Speaker 2: he literally looks like the leader of Like he looks
Speaker 2: like Gerard Way. I'm like, what are you doing? He
Speaker 2: looks like he's like my chemical romancing his way through
Speaker 2: this poncious pilot performance where he's like, oh, it's so
Speaker 2: hard to have so much power and be like I
Speaker 2: have to kill people. Like I don't know that interpretation, Yeah,
Speaker 2: just I don't. I don't like it. I don't like it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. That becomes abundantly clear in a scene towards
Speaker 3: the end of the movie.
Speaker 2: Right where he like leans down to Jesus. He's like,
Speaker 2: I really don't want to do this, but the people
Speaker 2: are asking, so whatever he was in Titanic? Did you
Speaker 2: know that? Did you know that Barry Dennan was in Titanic?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: Who did he play?
Speaker 2: Praying man? Oh? Caw wait? Let me actually I didn't
Speaker 2: look up a picture because I bet we will recognize
Speaker 2: him as praying man.
Speaker 3: Yeah, please send it to me.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Oh my god. Wait, he's kind of iconic,
Speaker 2: remember him.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah. And they're like, can you move a little
Speaker 3: faster through that valley there, because he's like saying something
Speaker 3: something through the shadow of the valley of death. Blah
Speaker 3: blah blah. Whoa.
Speaker 2: I was excited to give that fact to you, and
Speaker 2: then I forgot to look up what they meant by that.
Speaker 2: He's literally, wow, he's praying. He's praying man, unlike ponscous pilot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was not moving through that valley because he killed Jesus. Anyways,
Speaker 2: what range.
Speaker 3: So true? So true? Okay, So then we're at a
Speaker 3: marketplace in Jerusalem. Merchants are selling stuff and.
Speaker 2: Jesus at the mall. Jesus at the mall's picked. He
Speaker 2: throws a fit at the mall because.
Speaker 3: The idea is that this is like a group of
Speaker 3: heathens who are shaking their asses and doing drugs and
Speaker 3: selling weapons and yeah, stuff.
Speaker 2: Like that, which feels I mean, and this is just
Speaker 2: me my interpretation of the vibes of this scene. It
Speaker 2: feels a little bit tongue in cheek because it's so
Speaker 2: like overtly sexy, and it's like a story without a
Speaker 2: story where you're like, it's so wild that these community
Speaker 2: theater actors are shaking their asses right now. But yeah, no,
Speaker 2: Jesus pitches a fit at the mall and you're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: he's being Jesus is being a swarf now, but he's
Speaker 2: also kind of being anti capitalist, and.
Speaker 3: Which is Jesus's whole thing. So I was like, why
Speaker 3: weren't you like that before when you were talking to
Speaker 3: Judas who knows, but he trashes the market.
Speaker 2: He pitches a fit at them all.
Speaker 3: He really does. And then Jesus goes to what I
Speaker 3: believe is a leper colony, this community of people who
Speaker 3: are disabled and dealing with disease and they're hoping that
Speaker 3: Jesus can heal them, and he tries to help, but
Speaker 3: the sheer number of people is overwhelming and he's like,
Speaker 3: there are too many of you. Leave me alone.
Speaker 2: And I get it. It's like I think that I'm
Speaker 2: I'm whatever. There's a lot of things that are wrong
Speaker 2: here where it's just like again, this the way that
Speaker 2: this narrative is just overall from Jesus's perspective, dismissive of
Speaker 2: poverty and dismissive of the underclass in general, like anyone
Speaker 2: vulnerable who's like that's that's Jesus, his whole thing. But
Speaker 2: he seems to not be interested in this movie, which
Speaker 2: is why I do think it's like it's a it's
Speaker 2: partially just not a good performance. Sorry, Ted Neely. I
Speaker 2: feel like the most generous interpretation I could get to,
Speaker 2: but it's like he's not a good enough actor or
Speaker 2: really singer to pull it off. Is like the concept
Speaker 2: of like he is one person and like cannot possibly
Speaker 2: fix something this massive in the amount of time. Like
Speaker 2: it's like I do think that there is like this
Speaker 2: element that you can feel in certain numbers. I feel
Speaker 2: like it comes across in that song Gosemine, where it's
Speaker 2: like his what he wants to accomplish is too massive
Speaker 2: for one person, which but the ways that that's demonstrated
Speaker 2: makes him look like a real asshole totally like yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's bizarre. But then we cut to that
Speaker 3: night while geez this is sleeping, Mary Magdalene sings about
Speaker 3: how she loves Jesus but she doesn't know how best
Speaker 3: to love him.
Speaker 2: And I like I do. The part of the song
Speaker 2: that made me laugh this time around was that she
Speaker 2: was like, and if he asked me to be his girlfriend,
Speaker 2: I'd be like no. I like like, I'd panic, I'd
Speaker 2: say no.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and good for her?
Speaker 2: Yeah, same, I would. It's too much pressure. I don't
Speaker 2: want to be Jesus's girlfriend.
Speaker 3: A lot of pressure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, the tabloids.
Speaker 3: Yes, okay. So then the Batman theme starts playing, no no, no,
Speaker 3: no no no no, Judas.
Speaker 2: Who can say why? And there was a whole lawsuit
Speaker 2: around this. There was, of course of lawsuit because there
Speaker 2: had to be because also this came out like this
Speaker 2: concept album came out in the early seventies, which was
Speaker 2: so close to the Batman Show being on TV that
Speaker 2: it would.
Speaker 4: Have been like I was writing a musical about Jesus
Speaker 4: and then this theme from SpongeBob just started playing like
Speaker 4: it was so Angeloi Webber, what a what a fucking loser?
Speaker 2: Any?
Speaker 3: Very bizarre?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So then Judas goes to Caiaphas and his minions
Speaker 3: to be like, we got to stop Jesus.
Speaker 2: No no no no no no no.
Speaker 3: And Caiaphas is like, okay, we'll pay you to tell
Speaker 3: us where we can find Jesus. So Judas accepts pieces
Speaker 3: of silver and says that they can find him on
Speaker 3: Thursday night in a garden that I don't know how
Speaker 3: to say what it's called.
Speaker 2: I think it's gives them any yep, Okay.
Speaker 3: Then we cut to the Last Supper. Jesus and his
Speaker 3: twelve apostles break bread and drink wine, and then Jesus
Speaker 3: sings about a suspicion that one of the apostles will
Speaker 3: betray him, and he knows that it's Judas.
Speaker 2: Real housewives of the Garden of CASSEMONI hmmm, he starts.
Speaker 2: He once again can't help himself. He has to pitch
Speaker 2: a fit. I mean, to be fair, it's his last
Speaker 2: night on earth. Let him cook. But like right, Also,
Speaker 2: none of his friends stay up with him on his
Speaker 2: last on the last night of his life, which is rude,
Speaker 2: pretty much rude.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they should have had a slumber party where they
Speaker 3: stay up all night.
Speaker 2: They should have watched a movie.
Speaker 3: M oh wow. Anyway, so Jesus knows that Judas is
Speaker 3: betraying him, so he casts Judas away, and I love
Speaker 3: the part where he runs away in the middle of
Speaker 3: a bunch of like sheep who were fucking.
Speaker 2: Away, makes you think it's us. It's set, it's set,
Speaker 2: and it makes you think maybe he's one of the sheep.
Speaker 3: Whoa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I remember my Sunday school teacher pointing that out.
Speaker 2: And but good, this is a good use of our time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So then Jesus sings to God asking
Speaker 3: why God wants Jesus to die.
Speaker 2: I think this song is interesting. I don't Again, I'm
Speaker 2: not familiar with the biblical parallel. I don't like the song,
Speaker 2: but I like what the song is doing. I feel
Speaker 2: like this movie does to varying degrees of I think
Speaker 2: this is one of the movie's more successful moments at
Speaker 2: attempting to humanize Jesus and be like, well, if you
Speaker 2: had to die for nebulous reasons tomorrow, you would also
Speaker 2: be having a bad night. Like that's so true, that's
Speaker 2: so true.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like the way this song builds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to see Cynthia Arrivo sing that song
Speaker 2: because that neally is so annoying. I'm like, I just
Speaker 2: can't root for him. But yes, I like the premise
Speaker 2: of that song. Yeah, and then he's like fine, i'll die.
Speaker 3: Fine, I'll do it.
Speaker 2: God, you bitch. He's like, Dad, watch stop killing me.
Speaker 2: And I guess God offscreen is like, sorry, sorry, sorry, son,
Speaker 2: you'll thank me someday.
Speaker 3: And well, just like every other movie, this is a
Speaker 3: story about fathers and sons.
Speaker 2: I mean, the Bible really is the ultimate fathers and sons. Sorry,
Speaker 2: like enough enough already. Okay, So the next morning, Judas
Speaker 2: is back and he gives Jesus a little kiss and
Speaker 2: Jesus is like stop that.
Speaker 4: Stop.
Speaker 2: Even though Jesus he's so he's so annoying, he's so messy,
Speaker 2: where he's like, you have to go do this because
Speaker 2: God said you have. Like, because I think that that's
Speaker 2: a part of it that also isn't telegraphed well in
Speaker 2: the movie, is that like this is all like something
Speaker 2: that Jesus knows is going to happen because he was
Speaker 2: told it's going to happen. And it's almost like Judas
Speaker 2: is doomed to do this in some way, but then
Speaker 2: whenever he's doing it, Jesus is like you he suck.
Speaker 2: It's just weird, right.
Speaker 3: So, also because I didn't know this, I've never read
Speaker 3: the Bible, I don't know the details of this story
Speaker 3: aside from the very basics of like Judas betrays Jesus
Speaker 3: and then he's crucified. Yeah, I didn't know why this
Speaker 3: kiss happened. Oh and the movie does not make it clear.
Speaker 3: So no, I kind of like that. I kind of
Speaker 3: liked that. The movie is just like, what do you think, Yeah,
Speaker 3: they just kissed.
Speaker 2: Do you like it?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I like it. Whatever.
Speaker 3: Also, when you do like a search online for like
Speaker 3: Judas betraying Jesus, because I was like trying to find
Speaker 3: this story as told by the Bible to see like
Speaker 3: how it compares to the movie adaptation. When you look
Speaker 3: at the like images from this search, most of the
Speaker 3: images of this are of Judas kissing Jesus, and it's like,
Speaker 3: you know, arguably homo erotic. And I don't know why
Speaker 3: people don't talk a at that more.
Speaker 2: I think that I do think people do talk about it.
Speaker 3: I'm just not paying attention.
Speaker 2: No, I just I definitely I don't know. I was
Speaker 2: aware of the kids. But I also feel like the
Speaker 2: kiss is like I'm trying to think of another like
Speaker 2: piece of media where it's reproduced but the like, well,
Speaker 2: it's actually it's actually reproduced in succession at some point. Whoa, Yeah,
Speaker 2: Kendall kisses his father on the cheek before selling him out.
Speaker 2: So if you ever see two aggressively straight men doing
Speaker 2: a kiss on the cheek, something is about to go down.
Speaker 2: But in this movie, I would say that this is
Speaker 2: not at all an aggressively straight movie. It's uh no,
Speaker 2: it's I mean, there's a lot of problems with it,
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't say that it's rigid. Heterosexuality is one
Speaker 2: of them. But yeah, they kiss.
Speaker 3: They kiss because Judas had told Kiaphus that the person
Speaker 3: thereafter is the one who Judas will kiss. He's like,
Speaker 3: the way that you know who you need to arrest
Speaker 3: is the person that I'm gonna kiss. Like that was
Speaker 3: his little signal, okay Jesus, and so that's why he
Speaker 3: kisses Jesus.
Speaker 2: It's so weird because he could have been like the
Speaker 2: person who's.
Speaker 3: Hand I shake, could have done the person I'm gonna yeah,
Speaker 3: or I'm gonna give an apple to something.
Speaker 2: But it's also like I think it's like I I
Speaker 2: like it, okay, in defense of the Bible, go on,
Speaker 2: because I do believe this story is mostly made up, right.
Speaker 2: I feel like the kiss is a good symbol because
Speaker 2: and I think that this is well telegraphed in Carl
Speaker 2: Anderson's good performance is that like he loves Jesus and
Speaker 2: that like he's also like knows that he's doing this
Speaker 2: horrible thing and saying goodbye at the same time. So
Speaker 2: I feel like a kiss makes sense because it's like
Speaker 2: if it was a if it was something less intimate
Speaker 2: or personal, I feel like it would almost be like,
Speaker 2: oh did he and Jesus would say this, did you
Speaker 2: ever even care about me? Did you? Because that's like
Speaker 2: half of his songs, Like, does anyone even even like me?
Speaker 2: Even like me? I can't believe that? And ever meanwhile,
Speaker 2: everyone's obsessed with him. He's just like a cheerleader. But
Speaker 2: I liked and I also just like Carl Anderson kissing
Speaker 2: someone because then I can be like, what if I
Speaker 2: if it was me? Mm hmmm, So yeah, pro kiss.
Speaker 3: I think they should have kissed on the lips.
Speaker 2: But I think they should have gone to second base.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay. So then the Romans capture Jesus
Speaker 3: and his apostles and bring them to Caiaphas who's like,
Speaker 3: how dare you say you're the son of God. Then
Speaker 3: they take Jesus to Ponscious Pilot, who's very condescending, and
Speaker 3: he's like, who even are you Jesus Christ? I have never
Speaker 3: heard of you. You don't seem like a king at all.
Speaker 2: And Jesus regularly and I'm Sugar's a biblical significance, but
Speaker 2: I just think it's fundy where they're like, so do
Speaker 2: you think you're a king?
Speaker 3: Do you think your cave of the Jews? And he's like,
Speaker 3: I don't know. You're the one who said that, you
Speaker 3: not me.
Speaker 2: I know you are, but what am I?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: They're like, okay, okay, that was a silly one. I'm
Speaker 2: sure that happens in the Bible. Ball was like whatever, whatever,
Speaker 2: yeah these.
Speaker 3: Queens, Okay. So then Ponscious Pilot kind of passes Jesus
Speaker 3: off to King Herod, who says, well, well, well, if
Speaker 3: it isn't Jesus Christ, son of God, prove it, walk
Speaker 3: on water and turn water into wine. But Jesus refuses,
Speaker 3: so he's taken away and imprisoned in a cave.
Speaker 2: And we will and we referenced this already, but that
Speaker 2: number is just like needs to be seen to be believed.
Speaker 3: And the costumes and the makeup in that scene really
Speaker 3: quite something.
Speaker 2: Really just yeah, who I was just like, whose idea
Speaker 2: and why? And I don't I haven't been able to
Speaker 2: find someone who can give a satisfactory answer. But it happens,
Speaker 2: and that's really kind of the I meant. You cut
Speaker 2: to Herod once or twice at other points in the movie,
Speaker 2: including at the crucifixion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's.
Speaker 2: Really his only part.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if that's think we've seen him
Speaker 3: in character at least up until this point.
Speaker 2: No. Yeah, you see him in a T shirt when
Speaker 2: you see him come out of the bus.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and he's like flooping his hair a bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Anyway, So then we cut to Judas and he suddenly
Speaker 3: feels very guilty about this whole thing. So consumed with remorse,
Speaker 3: Judas hangs himself. Then it's Jesus' trial.
Speaker 2: Spoiler alert, It does not go well.
Speaker 3: Does not go well. No, Caiaphas and the other people
Speaker 3: who are against Jesus saying about how he needs to
Speaker 3: be crucified, and Ponscious Pilot is like, well, I don't
Speaker 3: think we need to kill him. But if it makes
Speaker 3: you feel better, I'll flog him.
Speaker 2: I'm like, and I'm just sideyeing this whole narrative. Thirdily
Speaker 2: of like this again, the most powerful colonizer in the
Speaker 2: movie is like I don't want to you made you
Speaker 2: made me do it, which I do think is another
Speaker 2: and again listeners correct me if I'm wrong, but another
Speaker 2: fairly anti Semitic narrative that surrounds this story that is
Speaker 2: not challenged in this work at all, which is like,
Speaker 2: quote unquote, the Jews killed Jesus, right, And that is
Speaker 2: basically what how Ponscious Pilot is written and how the
Speaker 2: crowd responds like is very not pushing against that interpretation
Speaker 2: at all.
Speaker 3: I've never seen Passion of the Christ, but I remember
Speaker 3: that being a lot of the discourse around that movie when.
Speaker 2: It came out. Well consider the author exactly. Yeah, one
Speaker 2: of the most anti Semitic celebrities of all time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it either. I Oh wait, are you
Speaker 2: talking about the Scorsese one or the mel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this corse not the mel Gibson one. Okay, Scorsezy
Speaker 3: one is the last Temptation of Christ.
Speaker 2: And that's Willem defoe Jesus yes.
Speaker 3: Right, I have seen that one any good. I don't remember.
Speaker 2: I really Yeah. Once I saw Jesus Christ Superstar, I
Speaker 2: was like, I get it. I don't you know, I
Speaker 2: don't think that there's gonna be a more fun way
Speaker 2: to tell this story, so I don't think try to
Speaker 2: watch the others. But yeah, anyways, I and honestly, I
Speaker 2: hadn't thought about that in a long time, and have
Speaker 2: seen this so many times that I didn't even think
Speaker 2: about it. But when I was going back through it,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, yeah, that is like pretty straightforwardly adapted,
Speaker 2: without question.
Speaker 3: Yes, So Jesus is publicly flogged. Mary Magdalene watches on
Speaker 3: in horror, but the angry mob still wants to crucify Jesus.
Speaker 3: Then we get a big musical number Jesus Christ Superstar.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, And I don't really know what's happening
Speaker 3: here is it?
Speaker 2: I love it? I don't know.
Speaker 3: Okay, here was my interpretation, don't I don't know if
Speaker 3: I'm way off, because this is being intercut with Jesus
Speaker 3: like dragging the cross through the desert and then him
Speaker 3: being crucified.
Speaker 2: Which I think is way better than harping on the
Speaker 2: intense violence of the Crucifixion, which I think is like
Speaker 2: what every other adaptation really and so much Christian imagery,
Speaker 2: like the crucifix in my Grandma's house. You're like, enough,
Speaker 2: what the fuck?
Speaker 3: I don't know why there's so much like reveling in
Speaker 3: the violence of that, but yeah, the movie, at least
Speaker 3: this movie does not do that.
Speaker 2: They're like, they're like, what if we did the little
Speaker 2: opposite of that and intercut a sexy disco number, so
Speaker 2: questions things. I have thoughts about this. I'm excited to
Speaker 2: hear your thoughts.
Speaker 3: My interpretation is that, like this is sort of a
Speaker 3: flash forward after he has like ascended to heaven. Because
Speaker 3: Judas is also there, everyone is in like white clothes.
Speaker 2: It sort of implies that Judas with heaven and you're like, yes, okay.
Speaker 3: Great, I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but with a bunch of sexy angels.
Speaker 3: So that was my interpretation. I don't really know.
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think that like it's I
Speaker 2: don't know. To me, I just sort of it feels
Speaker 2: like both a way to circumvent the harping on the
Speaker 2: extreme violence that is like the most common way to
Speaker 2: depict the Crucifixion, and it's like just sort of stating
Speaker 2: the thesis of the movie where in a way that
Speaker 2: I think is very like sympathetic to Judas again where
Speaker 2: hold on, let me just pull up the lyrics, where
Speaker 2: it's like Judas's character and I think it is like
Speaker 2: supposed to be him, you know, saying the same thing
Speaker 2: he did at the beginning, but with the knowledge of
Speaker 2: what happens in the story, where he's like saying why why, why?
Speaker 2: Why was it like that? Let me find I don't know,
Speaker 2: it just feels very like Silly in seventies in some ways,
Speaker 2: where he's like, why didn't you come to Earth in
Speaker 2: the seventies? That's basically the thesis of the song. It's
Speaker 2: like why did you why did you go? Why did
Speaker 2: you choose this time in this place? Where which in
Speaker 2: a way feels very overly optimistic because I don't know
Speaker 2: in the way that I think that a lot of
Speaker 2: the way that this production, in terms of its like
Speaker 2: casting and its politics, are saying like, assume that we
Speaker 2: now live in a less prejudiced and hateful world, which
Speaker 2: of course we do not. But I think that that
Speaker 2: the production takes a more optimistic bent and just gets silly,
Speaker 2: where did you mean to die? Like that? Was that
Speaker 2: a mistake or did you know your messy death would
Speaker 2: be a record breaker? That lyric is nuts, like like
Speaker 2: you can't say that. So yeah, I think that it's
Speaker 2: like the movie's attempt to honestly, like I I've before
Speaker 2: having for this, I knew the words that I never
Speaker 2: thought about them, because once again you're just thinking about
Speaker 2: Judas's outfit because you're like, whoa, He's wearing a full
Speaker 2: white suit with like fringe everywhere. He's surrounded by sexy
Speaker 2: angels and he's just like, Jesus, that was so weird.
Speaker 2: Why did you do that? That was wild? And then
Speaker 2: it's over. They get well, they get back in the bus.
Speaker 3: They get back on the bus right so after this,
Speaker 3: but you don't say, Jesus get back on the bus
Speaker 3: and what the hell is that about? Well, because he
Speaker 3: is in heaven, he died.
Speaker 2: Did they really kill Ted Neely? That would be wild
Speaker 2: if in the world of the play they're like, oops,
Speaker 2: we killed Ted Neely?
Speaker 3: Sad, Yeah, I guess it's like symbolic. I'm sure Jesus
Speaker 3: isn't there. But yeah, they get on the bus and
Speaker 3: they drive off the end. Bye bye. So that's the movie.
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss.
Speaker 2: And we're back where to start. I know we've covered
Speaker 2: a lot of the smaller stuff throughout the recap, but yeah,
Speaker 2: is there anything that is standing out to you? I mean,
Speaker 2: I think that you know, we've talked a little bit
Speaker 2: about how this movie was shot in Palestine and was
Speaker 2: shot in cooperation and like you say, and like you said,
Speaker 2: was partially funded by the Israeli government in a way
Speaker 2: that it's like extremely pernicious and horrible. Yeah, and in
Speaker 2: a way that I think is uh. I guess I
Speaker 2: am surprised has not been brought up more in the
Speaker 2: way for a musical that is still very much around
Speaker 2: that the narratives that exist around its most popular adaptation
Speaker 2: are never discussed. Like, this is all stuff that I've
Speaker 2: learned in the last year or.
Speaker 3: So, And I mean, I have a whole spiels let's
Speaker 3: get into it just about I mean, so the movie again,
Speaker 3: like doesn't shy away from acknowledging that the Romans were
Speaker 3: occupying Palestine at the time these events were taking place.
Speaker 2: But what it does shy away from is Palestine. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that Jesus was Palestinian and.
Speaker 3: Like Jesus was a brown Palestinian Arab, which again, this
Speaker 3: movie and most media, like mainstream media, that depicts Jesus
Speaker 3: very much subscribes to this idea that Jesus was a
Speaker 3: white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. And this
Speaker 3: movie is no exception. There is more diversity in the
Speaker 3: cast than I would have expected.
Speaker 2: Right, But it's pointed like, I think what's interesting is
Speaker 2: there is diversity in this movie, and I like that.
Speaker 2: In the framing device, it's like, this is a group
Speaker 2: of actors in the seventies question Mark just making a
Speaker 2: deal with the Israeli government to put on a play,
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, that's fucking horrible, especially if you
Speaker 2: consider what the plight of the Palestinian people was in
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, where there is an ongoing occupation, and
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of I mean Norman Jewison also,
Speaker 2: his other most famous movie is Fiddler on the Roof,
Speaker 2: which specifically the theatrical adaptation, but I've never seen it,
Speaker 2: but my understanding is the theatrical adaptation of it takes
Speaker 2: a far more Zionist bent than the stage musical did,
Speaker 2: and so Norman Jewison while he was a Christian director,
Speaker 2: which I think a lot of people get confused about
Speaker 2: because of his last name, where it's like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: guess if my name was Jamie Mormon, people would make assumptions.
Speaker 2: But he was a Christian director, but in his two
Speaker 2: most famous movies either took a Zionist bent or in
Speaker 2: the case of Jesus Christ Superstar literally was in cooperation
Speaker 2: and being funded by Zionists. And yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 2: it's so much of we see of what we still
Speaker 2: see spoken about now, and this feels particularly horrific when
Speaker 2: Gaza is being literally starved before our eyes as we
Speaker 2: record this to see even a movie that has a
Speaker 2: small part in uplifting this false narrative, while also like
Speaker 2: you're saying, Caitlin saying the right things and being anti occupation,
Speaker 2: but it's like it's only anti occupation to a point,
Speaker 2: because it's like it's anti occupation but unwilling to acknowledge
Speaker 2: Palestinians in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 3: Right, like you have Judas singing lyrics something to the
Speaker 3: effect of, listen, Jesus, do you care for your race?
Speaker 3: We are occupied? Have you forgotten how put down we are.
Speaker 3: But also this is coming from the person that we
Speaker 3: are meant to think is the villain or that, like
Speaker 3: you know, in this narrative, Judas is maybe not this.
Speaker 2: Movie, Judas is definitely the best. Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 2: I think that like that, again, I don't know how
Speaker 2: Judas is portrayed in the Bible because I just am
Speaker 2: not going to read it, but that, like Judas is,
Speaker 2: it's so frustrating because it's like Judas's perspective I think
Speaker 2: is like made out by the movie to seem valid
Speaker 2: at different points, but then isn't at other points. And
Speaker 2: I think Simon is very similar, where like Simon is
Speaker 2: I think effectively making the argument of like leverage your
Speaker 2: power and your influence and all of these followers we
Speaker 2: have won you to help dismantle this oppressive force, and
Speaker 2: Jesus is sort of like that's not possible. I can't
Speaker 2: do that. And I don't know, like it's just it's
Speaker 2: so muddy. But I do think it's interesting that the
Speaker 2: message is overtly stated repeatedly, but like you're saying by
Speaker 2: characters who are ultimately either villainous or misguided, even if
Speaker 2: they love Jesus where it seems like ultimately the Jesus
Speaker 2: shrug is like the takeaway, which is which is really
Speaker 2: really frustrating.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you would think this movie would be way more
Speaker 3: anti occupation, or that Jesus would be way more outspoken
Speaker 3: about the occupation, but it kind of doesn't really happen.
Speaker 2: Again in the source text, I don't know, you know
Speaker 2: exactly what is said or isn't, but it's like Jesus,
Speaker 2: even in the most like popular like straight up white
Speaker 2: Christian nationalist interpretation, is a champion of the underclass.
Speaker 3: Yeah, people living in poverty, people who are dealing with
Speaker 3: who are sick illness, who are sex workers? Like right,
Speaker 3: everyone knows this about Jesus, the.
Speaker 2: Politically disenfranchised exactly, And that is not the vibes this
Speaker 2: Jesus is giving off, not at all.
Speaker 3: That's those traits are more ascribed minus the like pro
Speaker 3: sex work ideology. Those traits are ascribed to Judas, Yeah,
Speaker 3: way more so.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I feel like what comes across clearly
Speaker 2: to me about like what he does at the end
Speaker 2: when he famously tells everyone where Jesus is.
Speaker 3: That was bad, That was bad. He should not have
Speaker 3: done that.
Speaker 2: I wish he had that was and he was bad
Speaker 2: for that. But at the beginning, I feel like Judas
Speaker 2: is real flaw and I again, it's like a smarter
Speaker 2: musical maybe could have like expressed these ideas better. Is that,
Speaker 2: Like so much of where Judas is coming from is
Speaker 2: he wants his people to be liberated, but he's afraid,
Speaker 2: and he's afraid of like what the occupying for is
Speaker 2: going to do if they are too loud? Like that's
Speaker 2: the whole point of the first song of Like he
Speaker 2: wants to be liberated, but he's afraid that they're being
Speaker 2: they're being so loud that it's counterproductive, which is like
Speaker 2: a flawed mindset, right, Like that's not a revolutionary mindset
Speaker 2: at all. But then it's like it's not like Jesus
Speaker 2: seems to have that agenda at all, right, where I think,
Speaker 2: like of the perspectives presented in the movie, I'm like
Speaker 2: kind of most with Simon because Simon, like I feel
Speaker 2: like Simon had is the only person who seems to
Speaker 2: have a plan and Jesus says no to the plan,
Speaker 2: but there was a plan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I I don't know. It's I don't know what
Speaker 3: to make of so much of this.
Speaker 2: It's a mess. And it's also like you know, written
Speaker 2: by with all due respective I mean, I Andrew Laid Webber.
Speaker 2: You know, he's who's politically a nightmare, right, Like Andrew
Speaker 2: Laid Webber is a political fucking trash fire, and like
Speaker 2: is deeply hated by most of his fans. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean truly, Like I think Andrew Lee Webber is a
Speaker 2: great example of like someone whose work is like storied
Speaker 2: and lauded, and all of his fans are like, well,
Speaker 2: don't listen to what he says, like because he is
Speaker 2: like a right wing freak who like grew up rich,
Speaker 2: and it's just like he's horrible. So is he the
Speaker 2: person who I trust? And he wrote this when he
Speaker 2: was twenty two and so you're like, do I trust
Speaker 2: a wealthy, white twenty two year old who grew up
Speaker 2: in a conservative household to give me anything here? No fair?
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know how musicals work. Really. He
Speaker 3: wrote the music, right, but like not the book and
Speaker 3: lyrics because that was Tim Rice.
Speaker 2: That's Tim Rice.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then the screenplay for this movie was co
Speaker 3: written by director Norman Jewison and Melvin Bragg. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: it's a lot of white men making this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I the.
Speaker 3: Thing I want to say about jew Udas, even though
Speaker 3: and Jamie, you and I agree that he's the best
Speaker 3: character and he's the most fun to watch and.
Speaker 2: The anthemist actor going with nice compliments towards Carl Anderson, and.
Speaker 3: We're kind of rooting for him most of the time. Culturally,
Speaker 3: Judas is not thought of favorably by no most Christians,
Speaker 3: and so I liked, yeah, sorry, you heard it here first. Well,
Speaker 3: so I think casting a black actor in that.
Speaker 2: Role absolutely it's racist. Yes, particularly I think like that,
Speaker 2: and this is done on stage, it's done in the movie.
Speaker 2: The image of the hanging. I think it's very upsetting
Speaker 2: because that is a casting choice that is made throughout
Speaker 2: at least the early history. And again that's like that
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with the quality of Ben Verie
Speaker 2: or Carl Anderson's performances. As we said, they're they're doing
Speaker 2: laps around Jesus every time. But it's Yeah, the optics
Speaker 2: of it are very very ugly, especially because he is
Speaker 2: the most prominent black actor in the movie, so there
Speaker 2: is no like, well, there are other black characters that
Speaker 2: have a lot of other different perspectives. Like that's not true.
Speaker 2: There are other black actors, but most of them appear
Speaker 2: in the background or in dance sequences or I mean
Speaker 2: there are black and brown actors. Like you're saying it
Speaker 2: is not a completely whitewashed movie, but the parts of
Speaker 2: it that are whitewashed are I mean, are Jesus like
Speaker 2: the most famously, poorly incorrectly whitewashed person ever this movie
Speaker 2: does nothing to which And again, like knowing the composer's politics,
Speaker 2: I'm not shocked to hear. And it's just like he's
Speaker 2: lucky that the likes of Ben Vereen and Carl Anderson
Speaker 2: would would touch it. But I agree. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: like there's not that I'm not saying I want this,
Speaker 2: But when you were saying that, where you're like, well,
Speaker 2: clearly he's wrong, I was like, what if Judas got
Speaker 2: like the wickedification of Judas is scariot, you know, like
Speaker 2: I'd watch it Judas wicked because there's like Judas wicked
Speaker 2: moments because I yeah, like we're saying, like, this movie
Speaker 2: is not unsympathetic to Judas's plight, but ultimately they're like
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you know, the okay, someone,
Speaker 2: which is weird because Stephen Schwartz, who wrote Wicked, also
Speaker 2: wrote Godspell. Oh that was his first musical. So Stephen Schwartz, well,
Speaker 2: actually not you. Someone can someone give me the wickedification
Speaker 2: of Judas? I'd watchy, I'd watch that. But yeah, ultimately,
Speaker 2: it's it's the casting. Like casting a black actor repeatedly,
Speaker 2: particularly opposite a white Jesus is like, be fucking serious, serious, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Director Norman Jewison was asked by the Vatican Press why
Speaker 3: he cast a black actor for Judas, and he said
Speaker 3: that Carl Anderson quote tested along with many others in London,
Speaker 3: and as always happens, the film really told us what
Speaker 3: to do. The test was so successful that there really
Speaker 3: wasn't any doubt in my mind at all that he
Speaker 3: was the most talented actor to play the role unquote,
Speaker 3: and I doubt.
Speaker 2: That he's way better than most of the actors in
Speaker 2: the movie.
Speaker 3: He's very talented. But you do have to consider and
Speaker 3: like and there should be far more casting choices and
Speaker 3: hiring practices and everything based on merit. However, when there
Speaker 3: is a harmful trope that already exists of casting black
Speaker 3: and brown actors to play villains, you gotta be really
Speaker 3: careful with your casting choices.
Speaker 2: So I agree, and like I think that like and
Speaker 2: again it's like we're two white people have this discussion. Yes,
Speaker 2: I feel like it's like if Carl Anderson uncontested, I mean,
Speaker 2: you can't see the Ben Vereen performance, you can only
Speaker 2: hear it. It's also great, But like Carl Anderson, I
Speaker 2: feel like, is the definitive Judas in this musical. And
Speaker 2: it's like, then cast other black actors in other roles,
Speaker 2: like because like speaking to this like long criticism of
Speaker 2: this movie, if that is the only black actor, you're
Speaker 2: giving a prominent role too in the movie.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Norman Jewison's sort of explanation is like, well, that's on you,
Speaker 2: that's your fault.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're saying that the actor who plays Simon,
Speaker 3: Larry Marshall, is a black actor.
Speaker 2: But I but I would also qualify that with not
Speaker 2: to the degree that Judas is wrong, he is similarly
Speaker 2: dismissed as being naive. I think it's like interesting that
Speaker 2: you know, both Judas and Simon are the two apostles
Speaker 2: who are saying the most overtly political things. They're played
Speaker 2: by black actors, and they are both either villainized or dismissed. Right,
Speaker 2: And that said, the Larry Marshall performance, Oh boy.
Speaker 3: Fun, he's dancing his little heart out.
Speaker 2: He was in the full Monty on Broadway.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, he's also only prominently featured in
Speaker 3: one scene.
Speaker 2: To the point where, to be fair, that's most characters
Speaker 2: in this movie.
Speaker 3: That's true. But to the point where at the beginning
Speaker 3: of this episode where I was like, who's Simon again, Like,
Speaker 3: I kind of don't know that character.
Speaker 2: I think theoretically you're supposed to know who it is
Speaker 2: because it's it. But that's a part of the problem
Speaker 2: of like it's assumed that ever that I mean, it
Speaker 2: further shows that this movie is made specifically for a
Speaker 2: Western audience or for a like overtly Christian or Jewish audience,
Speaker 2: because if you are familiar with the story that it
Speaker 2: does not do anything to pull you in on what's
Speaker 2: going on. But I do, yes, it's while Simon is
Speaker 2: played by a black actor, I would say that, Yeah, like,
Speaker 2: Simon is not a prominent character, even if he's a
Speaker 2: memorable you know, it's a memorable number. Yeah, it's the
Speaker 2: best dance number in the movie. It's the most intense
Speaker 2: dance number in the movie. I will say King Herod's
Speaker 2: song is a really fun dance now that you bring
Speaker 2: him up, I talk about it. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 3: I mean, we'll get to Mary Magdalen. But because we're
Speaker 3: kind of on this topic, I would say the queer
Speaker 3: coding what of ponchous Pilot and King Herod ponchous Pilot.
Speaker 2: I feel like for me, poncous Pilot is open to interpretation.
Speaker 2: I definitely think I think more. I guess I didn't
Speaker 2: really think of it as queer coding. As much as
Speaker 2: I thought of it. It was just like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I thought that ponchous Pilot for me was more complicated,
Speaker 2: like politically, where it's like he's made out to be
Speaker 2: way more sympathetic than makes I guess, But I mean,
Speaker 2: King Herod, what the hell? What the hell? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I would be curious what our listeners think, because I
Speaker 2: do think that there is a read of this that
Speaker 2: is like, this is a beloved dance number. This is like,
Speaker 2: I think, been very embraced for the campy number that
Speaker 2: it seems to want to be. But the fact that
Speaker 2: there is heavy queer coding for seemingly no reason at all,
Speaker 2: is you know, unquestionable.
Speaker 3: I mean I think the reason is that King Herod
Speaker 3: is a villain to Jesus. So they're just going to
Speaker 3: do the thing. Yeah, that a lot of media does
Speaker 3: Mary Magdalen.
Speaker 2: I love Yvonne Elleman. She's so talented, she's so wonderful.
Speaker 2: She also had like a number of hits in I
Speaker 2: think like the seventies and eighties she was like missus
Speaker 2: adult contemporary radio. I guess it's like, unfortunately, there's not
Speaker 2: a ton to say about Mary Magdalene as it pertains
Speaker 2: to this. I genuinely don't know how much more we
Speaker 2: get of Mary Magdalene's story, although we could talk about
Speaker 2: The Da Vinci Code, which is a documentary about Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 3: Yes, feminist text, the da Vinci Code.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean she's here. It's I will say, like,
Speaker 2: this is a character who is canonically a sex worker,
Speaker 2: who is presented as a human right like, is presented
Speaker 2: as a human who is loved and can be loved.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately that is not something that you frequently see,
Speaker 2: particularly the further back in history you go. So that's good.
Speaker 2: They unfortunately she is really only left to be like,
Speaker 2: I love Jesus. That's like it.
Speaker 3: Most of the scenes she's in, she's tending to Jesus,
Speaker 3: and her whole care is just sort of like there.
Speaker 2: Boyfriend's gonna be killed.
Speaker 3: No, And I'm sure that's a source material problem.
Speaker 2: I no, yeah, I don't. I don't think that they were.
Speaker 2: They very Negdalen was a feminist hero who was reduced.
Speaker 2: But again, it's like, clearly the agenda of this musical
Speaker 2: is to be subversive and to add things, and I
Speaker 2: think like in the case of people like Judas, that
Speaker 2: is done where we do get a clearer look into
Speaker 2: his inner life and specifically his politics. With Mary Magdalene, again,
Speaker 2: I think it's just like kind of a classic sexist
Speaker 2: thing that is done, where it's like she her existence
Speaker 2: is political and Jesus's love and acceptance for her is political.
Speaker 3: But how does she feel about anything?
Speaker 2: Exactly? Exactly? And they don't have an interest in it,
Speaker 2: which is like, well, if you look at the number
Speaker 2: of men that wrote and imposed and directed and adapted, like,
Speaker 2: there's just not any It doesn't seem like there's anyone
Speaker 2: with any meaningful interest in how she would feel, which
Speaker 2: is a bummer because it's like a bummer, but like
Speaker 2: because there's space for that here, and it like very
Speaker 2: cleanly fits into what it seems like the agenda of
Speaker 2: this is. But they just are unable to consider her,
Speaker 2: like she's treated like almost a person but then close,
Speaker 2: so close, and yet they cannot conceive of her having
Speaker 2: any feeling about something that is not her boyfriends. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and washing her boyfriend's feet, come on, gross grosbr all
Speaker 2: over him. I think she did canonically do that, but
Speaker 2: also yucky.
Speaker 3: No, there's a scene where she's doing that. They're saying, no.
Speaker 2: I mean, like in the Bible, I think she's I
Speaker 2: think she's a she's a she's a foot freaking the
Speaker 2: Bible as well.
Speaker 3: See come on.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not kink shaming, but like, tell me
Speaker 2: something else about her.
Speaker 3: That's the thing. People with a foot kink. They contain multitudes.
Speaker 2: Although she's von Ellman is very fun uh fun gal.
Speaker 2: I'm really I think she's uh, she's got a fun
Speaker 2: story of like how she got involved and then became
Speaker 2: a popular disco artist after this came out, So at
Speaker 2: least we got ivon Ellerman disco. I don't know all
Speaker 2: of this. This movie is also just like so terminally
Speaker 2: seventies in every single way that it's like incomprehensible. You're like,
Speaker 2: sometimes you're just like, what the why would you do that?
Speaker 3: Everyone's wearing bell bottoms.
Speaker 2: Everyone's like it's just like, I mean, yeah, this is
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not the first or last to say this
Speaker 2: butt Andre Loyd Webber musical, But it's just like this
Speaker 2: musical doesn't have two brain cells to rub together. It's
Speaker 2: just it's like it's ridiculous, which is that's why I
Speaker 2: fell in love with it, I guess. But yeah, there's
Speaker 2: sometimes you're like, there there are some actually like oh,
Speaker 2: this is a huge problem with this musical, and like
Speaker 2: let's trace it to why that might be. And then
Speaker 2: there are some things about this musical that you're like,
Speaker 2: I don't fucking know. I don't think he knows is Crokats?
Speaker 2: Like who fucking knows?
Speaker 3: Wow? I mean also worth mentioning that if you're if
Speaker 3: you're considering like the main three players of this movie
Speaker 3: being Jesus, Mary, and Judas, two of those characters are
Speaker 3: played by actors of color. Ivon Elleman is mixed. She's Japanese, Chinese,
Speaker 3: and Irish. But when you consider again a black actor
Speaker 3: playing the villain of the story and a woman of
Speaker 3: color being given basically no characterization, no story, it's the
Speaker 3: illusion of diversity, but it's not meaningful.
Speaker 2: Right, is especially frustrating given like the caliber of a Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I'm just gonna keep dragging ted Neely, but like,
Speaker 2: given the caliber of performance from Carl Anderson and Vonelleman
Speaker 2: compared to ted Neely, You're like, it's just ridiculous. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that, like there's there's so much about this
Speaker 2: movie that just like it is such again that the
Speaker 2: product of its time, that's like a huge product of
Speaker 2: its time issue. I think that I don't know. I'm
Speaker 2: curious how this like new stage adaptation is going to
Speaker 2: work subvert or not subvert. I really, really, really really
Speaker 2: hope that they that this production acknowledges this story's roots
Speaker 2: in Palestine specifically. I don't feel hopeful because of how
Speaker 2: negligent most institutions are in doing so, but but also
Speaker 2: in like like the optics that you're talking about. I
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know this. There's a part of
Speaker 2: me it's like this this musical is best left in
Speaker 2: the past, right, But that's the problem with musicals is
Speaker 2: that like, if there is a single bop in it,
Speaker 2: it will never go away ever, and there are unfortunately
Speaker 2: bops in this and so this is uh.
Speaker 3: This subjective.
Speaker 2: Okay, listen, sorry to be a bitch on your birthday.
Speaker 2: But I okay, yeah, you're being a bitch on my birthday.
Speaker 2: I yeah.
Speaker 3: So now there's there's some catchy tunes, I suppose, yeah,
Speaker 3: but yeah, I mean. Another thing that is not handled
Speaker 3: well is the representation of disability in the movie. The
Speaker 3: scene where Jesus goes to the leper colony that people
Speaker 3: want him to heal them. The characters there, they are
Speaker 3: of course sick and disabled. They are shown as being
Speaker 3: in pain and in desperate need of healthcare should be
Speaker 3: just a basic human right, of course, in an occupation
Speaker 3: like this, it wouldn't be.
Speaker 2: And also, I mean, to be fair, two thousand years
Speaker 2: in medicine. Yeah, it's not like that we can take
Speaker 2: them to the hospital.
Speaker 3: But but but there are they are isolated and they're
Speaker 3: cast out of society. So this is all very understandable. However,
Speaker 3: I would argue that there is another layer that the
Speaker 3: movie adds to this as far as like portraying these
Speaker 3: people as being creepy and grotesque, I agree, in the
Speaker 3: way a lot of media portrays disabled people.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree. And I think it's like yet another
Speaker 2: example of like the moments the things in the there
Speaker 2: is like a limit to what this production is willing
Speaker 2: to subvert exactly, and it's like very telling what it's
Speaker 2: willing to suvert. Yeah, and and and that feel that's
Speaker 2: from what I understand, is of just straight ahead the
Speaker 2: way that group is always portrayed, and this movie does
Speaker 2: nothing to and also to add the shitty Ted Neely
Speaker 2: perform as him being like ew, go away away from me.
Speaker 2: I blamed him for that, but it's still fucking awful.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The other kind of similar thing is there's a
Speaker 3: very very small part like blink and you'd miss it
Speaker 3: kind of thing. But there's this part of the movie
Speaker 3: where it's during the song where Jesus is asking God
Speaker 3: about why he wants Jesus to die and the.
Speaker 2: Part where the one where he goes, WHOA should I die?
Speaker 2: There's a part I want to say that before I die?
Speaker 3: Yeah, please do. There's a part where we see a
Speaker 3: few like flashes of still images they're like illustrations and
Speaker 3: paintings that are kind of flashing on screen as he's singing,
Speaker 3: And most of these illustrations are of Jesus being crucified,
Speaker 3: but there are a few quick images, and I'm curious
Speaker 3: if you spotted this, Jamie, there are a few quick
Speaker 3: images of like onlookers witnessing the crucifixion that resemble the
Speaker 3: very anti Semitic way that Jewish people would be depicted
Speaker 3: in like Nazi and other anti Jewish propaganda.
Speaker 2: I did not catch that, but I do feel like
Speaker 2: that ties into what we were talking about earlier about
Speaker 2: how little this movie pushes back on villainizing Jewish people
Speaker 2: in general and blaming them for Jesus's death, while like
Speaker 2: what this musical is also doing and like the limits
Speaker 2: to its empathy is that it was like everyday Jewish
Speaker 2: people that forced the occupying force to do this, which
Speaker 2: is like, if you you know, think about it for
Speaker 2: a microsecond, is fucking ridiculous. But I didn't notice that
Speaker 2: they also put a visual to it that's terrific.
Speaker 3: It's literally three quick images, maybe two to or three.
Speaker 3: They flash on screen for less than a second each,
Speaker 3: So it's again like if you're not looking at the
Speaker 3: screen at that exact moment, you won't catch it.
Speaker 2: But because yeah, I know the sequence you're talking about.
Speaker 2: But it's like and again, it's like, these are images
Speaker 2: that exist, but why are you choosing to show them?
Speaker 2: Like you can there there's a way to show Again,
Speaker 2: it's like what I blinked and I missed? I confess
Speaker 2: because otherwise it's like it seems like it's trying to
Speaker 2: say like this, you know, all of the emphasis on
Speaker 2: the violence that you see in popular art, which that
Speaker 2: fucking sucks because I thought that that idea was kind
Speaker 2: of effective, where like that's a familiar image, But like
Speaker 2: choosing to cut to those anti Semitic depictions of this,
Speaker 2: like centuries long antisemitic propagation is like what you know, again,
Speaker 2: what are we doing? What is the agenda of this movie?
Speaker 2: And no one can answer this, No one can answer
Speaker 2: this question, and so maybe we shall put it in
Speaker 2: the trash But I and yet I'm saying it two nights,
Speaker 2: what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do
Speaker 2: with Cynthia Arrivo? Can you fix this? And the answer
Speaker 2: is I don't think so, I don't think it's fixable.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.
Speaker 2: Okay, everybody, quick update from the future. I saw Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ Superstar with my mommy at the Hollywood Bowl last
Speaker 2: week and ooh, I have thoughts. It was amazing. But
Speaker 2: also I have thoughts, as you've been hearing throughout this
Speaker 2: entire episode. The first thing I wanted to mention that
Speaker 2: we talk about throughout the course of the episode, but
Speaker 2: I just wanted to address with a little bit more
Speaker 2: specificity is talking to the specific moment that this movie
Speaker 2: was produced in mostly the West Bank, but with the
Speaker 2: cooperation and approval of the Israeli government. Obviously we talked
Speaker 2: about that throughout the episode, but specifically I wanted to
Speaker 2: make no of the fact that, particularly in Gaza, that
Speaker 2: occupation was not just ongoing going back to the Nakba
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty eight, but also as of nineteen sixty seven,
Speaker 2: there was an escalation of violence that led to Gaza
Speaker 2: being more aggressively occupied than ever before by Israel, and
Speaker 2: in ways that are directly traced to right now. So
Speaker 2: I just want to, you know, take every opportunity to
Speaker 2: not talk about Palestine as if this started two years ago,
Speaker 2: and that it is a particularly ugly time for this
Speaker 2: production to have taken place in conjunction with the Israeli government,
Speaker 2: because Israel was actively and loudly escalating the occupation, and
Speaker 2: so any act of cooperation with that is horrific. As
Speaker 2: far as the Cynthia Christ Superstar production goes, yes, tell
Speaker 2: me about it. So it was a no one to
Speaker 2: hear that Cynthia Arivo Superstar is incredible, like Ted Neely
Speaker 2: found dead in a ditch, like she she's I mean,
Speaker 2: she's like one of the greatest performers living. I'm pretty
Speaker 2: sure she's so amazing. Her her rendition of Gusemini was
Speaker 2: like I'd never heard the song before, Like not to
Speaker 2: be over dramatic, but like it's whatever the bull fits
Speaker 2: seventeen thousand people. Everyone was crying. There was a like
Speaker 2: standing ovation. It was like low key religious experience, Like
Speaker 2: it was really really She's incredible. Weirdly, and I wasn't
Speaker 2: expecting this because I don't next to nothing about this man.
Speaker 2: Adam Lambert is Judas really good, really really like he
Speaker 2: totally made the part his own. I just like I
Speaker 2: was really taken aback at how awesome he was. I
Speaker 2: really really liked him. Ral Esparsa, who is a iconic
Speaker 2: Broadway actor played Pilot. And here's where I'm going to
Speaker 2: be controversial and say I did not like his pilot
Speaker 2: really very much. There were clearly roll Aesparsa heads in
Speaker 2: the house, Kitlyn, I think. I think the thing he's
Speaker 2: best known for is that song being a Love You
Speaker 2: know that one?
Speaker 3: Nope?
Speaker 2: Okay, well then I sang for a reason. That is
Speaker 2: what he's best known for the mainstream Like, he's an
Speaker 2: incredible singer, a credible performer, but I just did not
Speaker 2: like his approach to Pilot. I'll be perfectly honest with you.
Speaker 2: I and it actually, even though we talk about throughout
Speaker 2: the episode, how and this is obviously still true that
Speaker 2: Pilot is like overly empathized with in this rendition, it
Speaker 2: did make me appreciate Barry Dennan's performance as Pilot much
Speaker 2: more because like, if that's going to be the approach
Speaker 2: of the production, you've got to sell it, and Barry
Speaker 2: Dennon does sell it, and I don't think her all
Speaker 2: Asparsa did. Moving on to Mary Magdalen played by Philip A.
Speaker 2: Su who most famously played Eliza in Hamilton, that I
Speaker 2: think is like her biggest credit she's great, Like we
Speaker 2: talked about throughout the episode, she's great as Mary, and
Speaker 2: Mary has basically nothing to do, so there's an upper
Speaker 2: limit to what she is able to do. But it
Speaker 2: was great and it was also really cool seeing they
Speaker 2: were not leaning away from the lesbian undertones of Cynthia
Speaker 2: Arrivo and Philip A. Su as Jesus and Mary. It
Speaker 2: was great, nice background of the production, I guess is
Speaker 2: in the expected obnoxious, racist, misogynous ways. There was a
Speaker 2: wave of Fox News backlash to Cynthia Arrivo's casting as
Speaker 2: Jesus because YadA YadA, a black woman as Jesus. Never
Speaker 2: mind what we've talked about. What you know, Jesus was
Speaker 2: not white, and Cynthia Rivo's fucking Cynthia Arrivo. You should
Speaker 2: be thanking her for being willing to do it. I
Speaker 2: think she's next playing Dracula on the West End, which
Speaker 2: is like, she's just she's just doing whatever.
Speaker 3: I love that. I know.
Speaker 2: I kind of want my mom because my mom would
Speaker 2: die for her. And my mom was like, do you
Speaker 2: think we could go? I was like, oh my god, okay,
Speaker 2: too much, too much. We can't go international for Cynthia Rivo.
Speaker 2: It's too much. But so that was a background to
Speaker 2: the production. It was very very well reviewed, it was
Speaker 2: really good. But I do feel like, and maybe I
Speaker 2: talked about this earlier in the episode, there are very
Speaker 2: glaring missed opportunities, particularly doing Jesus Christ Superstar right now.
Speaker 2: Not acknowledging the genocide is I think pretty inexcusable. And
Speaker 2: it's not just something that I that didn't happen, which
Speaker 2: unfortunately I wasn't surprised, but like, wasn't something I saw
Speaker 2: in the press surrounding it at all, which I think
Speaker 2: kind of it speaks to the media, but it also
Speaker 2: speaks to how americanized and divorced from its context that
Speaker 2: this musical has become over time, when if you're paying
Speaker 2: attention to what the musical is, it's about resistance in
Speaker 2: the face of an oppressive force, which if that's not Palestine,
Speaker 2: what is, you know, and taking place in the exact
Speaker 2: same location. It's inexcusable to put a massive production of
Speaker 2: this together and not call attention to that, if not
Speaker 2: actively do something. But that is not what this production did,
Speaker 2: and in fact, they cast a pretty prominent Zionist leaning
Speaker 2: celebrity to play King Herod that being Josh Gadd. Oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that was not something I was. I mean, I guess
Speaker 2: I just didn't know Josh Gadd's politics because I famously
Speaker 2: hate Josh Gadd anyways, and it turns out I hate.
Speaker 3: Fully Born on the podcast before we and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so whoever emailed me saying that I that I
Speaker 2: was wrong to joh Gad, fuck you. But but yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, not only to completely not acknowledge the genocide
Speaker 2: that is happening from the side of the Israeli government
Speaker 2: in this musical that takes place in the same exact location,
Speaker 2: they cast a prominent Zionist to be a prominent role
Speaker 2: in it. So I won't even speak to his performance,
Speaker 2: because who fucking cares? That said, Cynthia Arrivo and Adam Lambert,
Speaker 2: they should take that show in the road, and they
Speaker 2: should take it on the road with a production that
Speaker 2: is not afraid to discuss the context that is happening
Speaker 2: in because it felt very, very glaring and like basically
Speaker 2: centrist stuff is just like, well, can't we just have fun,
Speaker 2: you guys? And you're like not, when you're showing the
Speaker 2: story of Jesus' crucifixion, you fucking dumbass that said I
Speaker 2: laughed to cry. And that's my update.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm glad it was an enjoyable time. It was,
Speaker 3: and now we will travel back to the.
Speaker 2: Past before I had to see Josh Gadden person bless
Speaker 2: her heart.
Speaker 3: So so back to the originally recorded episode. Do you
Speaker 3: have anything else you want to talk about?
Speaker 2: I don't think so, no, I yeah, this is definitely
Speaker 2: like it's a movie that is deeply problematic that had
Speaker 2: a very strong effect on me as a kid. I
Speaker 2: do like, I think that there are elements to this
Speaker 2: movie that I still really appreciate that are mostly connected
Speaker 2: to Carl Anderson, honestly, and I think just like further,
Speaker 2: I don't know it is it like when you think
Speaker 2: of a dated project, this is just this is like
Speaker 2: the most nineteen seventy three they Oh yeah. The last
Speaker 2: I was going to say is again, it's like there
Speaker 2: is a vague moment of being anti Vietnam War. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I like that. I like that. Again, It's it's unclear.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure in nineteen seventy three is very
Speaker 2: clear where there is a moment where Judas is pursued
Speaker 2: by tanks.
Speaker 3: Which would have been Israeli tanks.
Speaker 2: Which would have been is again, so it's like the
Speaker 2: it means nothing, but that was the intention of it,
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, I mean, and that's again where
Speaker 2: it's like the project just fails for that reason, where
Speaker 2: it's like, if you're using occupying tanks to make an
Speaker 2: anti war statement, you're not doing anything. You're doing worse
Speaker 2: than nothing. So as far as the movie goes, it's
Speaker 2: like impossible to get past. As far as the musical,
Speaker 2: I mean the musical as far as I know, you know,
Speaker 2: it was just in the West End and then on Broadway,
Speaker 2: and it was specifically the Norman Jewis in production that
Speaker 2: was making all these calls. But either way, it ages
Speaker 2: not great. I guess my final thought is I love
Speaker 2: Carl Anderson.
Speaker 3: He does a great job RIP. The last thing I
Speaker 3: want to do is just a call to action. Something
Speaker 3: I've done recently is compile a list of links on
Speaker 3: my link tree from families in Gaza who have reached
Speaker 3: out to me on Instagram asking for help. And so
Speaker 3: I've basically just started compiling all of those and donating and.
Speaker 2: We'll link that below as well, and we will make
Speaker 2: contributions from our Patreon to that as well. I hope
Speaker 2: that most of our listeners are already you know, understand
Speaker 2: what is going on in our following reliable sources about that.
Speaker 2: That would be another I think call to action is
Speaker 2: to divest from news sources that are not covering, that
Speaker 2: are either not covering or downplaying or both sides yng
Speaker 2: what is objectively and has been for so long, an
Speaker 2: active genocide of the Palestinian people. So not only giving
Speaker 2: directly to families who need direct aid, but actively pushing
Speaker 2: back on these false, half assed narratives that we see
Speaker 2: pushed at the highest level.
Speaker 3: Also follow the BDS movement, the boycott, divestment and sanctions.
Speaker 3: It's a Palestinian lead movement that has a list of
Speaker 3: companies to boycott because that is something that does enact change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something direct you can do. Right now,
Speaker 2: we will link all of those below. And yeah, I
Speaker 2: think as far as ending this episode, I will be
Speaker 2: making a five hundred dollars donation to PCRF for my birthday.
Speaker 2: If anyone would like to join me in doing that,
Speaker 2: please do. They are and have been doing really, I mean,
Speaker 2: as we've talked about many times on the show, they're
Speaker 2: doing really important work. Yeah, this movie does not pass
Speaker 2: the bachel test.
Speaker 3: Sure doesn't even come close.
Speaker 2: And I don't even really kind of want to skip
Speaker 2: the nipples. I don't think we deserve, we don't need
Speaker 2: to give nipples to movies that were made with Israel exactly.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't pass the Backel test. And it's and
Speaker 2: that's my birthday.
Speaker 3: And that's your birthday. Happy birthday, Jamie. Thank you, Thank
Speaker 3: you for listening. Listeners. Don't forget about our upcoming tour
Speaker 3: in the Midwest.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we will be there in just a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: We will be in Indianapolis, Chicago, Madison, and Minneapolis. We
Speaker 2: hope to see you there talking about the Star Wars prequels.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, sorry, and you're welcome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll see you there. Bye bye.
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Speaker 3: k Lyndarante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
Speaker 3: by Moe laboord Our theme song was composed by Mike
Speaker 3: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch
Speaker 3: is designed by Jamie loftis and a special thanks to
Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit
Speaker 3: Linktree Slash Bechdelcast