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Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zephynbast start changing

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Speaker 1: with the Bechdelcast.

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Speaker 2: Jamie and Caitlin here, we're going on tour, and we're

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Speaker 2: not going on tour just anywhere. We're going on tour

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Speaker 2: in the Midwest and soon covering the Star Wars prequels.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna just cover all three at once. You know

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Speaker 2: it's gonna be fine. There's been so much talk about

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Speaker 2: the prequels over the years, often on podcasts we really like,

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Speaker 2: often by writers we really like, but never from an

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Speaker 2: intersectional feminist perspective. And so we're going on this tour

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Speaker 2: to quickly realize why that is.

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Speaker 3: So you can see us discuss all three prequels in

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Speaker 3: one show in fabulous outfits, in wonderful coseplay. You don't

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Speaker 3: want to miss this. We will be in Indianapolis for

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Speaker 3: Let's Fest on Saturday, August thirtieth for a matinee show

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Speaker 3: and then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening

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Speaker 3: that can't be missed.

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Speaker 2: Called Jamie Loftus and her pet rock solve the world's

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Speaker 2: problems in which that will happen.

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Speaker 3: I can't wait.

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Speaker 2: Then the very next day, we are going to Chicago.

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Speaker 2: You asked, we listened. We will be at the Den

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Speaker 2: Theater on August thirty. First, that show is going to

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Speaker 2: start around seven, seven to fifteen pm. It's an evening show,

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Speaker 2: a sexy little evening show. We're so excited to go

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Speaker 2: to Chicago and the Den Theater is so beautiful, so

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Speaker 2: Chicagoans do not miss it.

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Speaker 3: And then then we will be in Madison, Wisconsin on Thursday,

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Speaker 3: September fourth. I believe that's a seven thirty show, and oh,

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Speaker 3: we're so excited to be in Madison.

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Speaker 2: And then finally we will be ending the tour in Minneapolis,

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Speaker 2: Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater on Sunday, September seventh.

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Speaker 2: That is another evening show. It starts at seven o'clock.

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Speaker 2: So if you have been one of the many people

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Speaker 2: asking us to come to your town for the last

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Speaker 2: ten years we're doing it, we would love to see you.

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Speaker 2: The shows are super fun. As we've said, if you're

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Speaker 2: a matron, specifically, if you're a member of our Patroon

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Speaker 2: aka Matreon. You get a free little gift at the

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Speaker 2: merch table when you come to say hi after the show.

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Speaker 2: It's a blast, It's gonna be a super good time.

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Speaker 2: We love Siena. You can get all tickets at link tree,

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Speaker 2: slash Bectel cast exqueeze me, We'll see you there.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy the episode. Cast Jamie christ superstart. Happy birthday, Jamie.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Wow, I'm feeling so christ Like today. I'm

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Speaker 2: feeling I'm feeling like I'm gonna like do unto others.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of the vibe for today. I know that

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Speaker 2: that's OK. He didn't say that, right, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: That's just the golden rule, which.

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Speaker 2: I feel like, I feel like, you know, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: he'd agree. Yeah, I'm sure he wouldn't be like, no,

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Speaker 2: nor do not do unto others? Okay, Welcome to my birthday.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to my birthday.

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Speaker 3: Happy to be here.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here too. I think maybe I

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Speaker 2: will actually succeed in going to Knotsberry Farm on my

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Speaker 2: birthday this year. We'll see I failed last year, but

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Speaker 2: maybe this is the year.

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Speaker 3: Can I invite myself? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Because you're a season pass holder, right, Yeah? Yeah, if

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Speaker 2: we are successful in going, Yeah, we should go with

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Speaker 2: a damn group because I haven't been in three years.

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Speaker 3: I think it's my new favorite theme park.

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Speaker 2: It's so fun. It's so fun because the theming is

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Speaker 2: just like, sure, yeah, why not? I walk around and

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Speaker 2: you're like, hmmm, old timey ghost why not?

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Speaker 3: Of course?

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome. Okay, so this is my main feed birthday episode.

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Speaker 2: So if this is your first episode Wild points of Entry,

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Speaker 2: but for what it's worth, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Jamie, it's my birthday.

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Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin. It's not my birthday.

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Speaker 2: Brutal, brutal, and that must be hard for you today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah what if I judas you because I'm resentful that

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Speaker 3: it's not my birthday.

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Speaker 2: Well, then you would be low key the coolest character

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Speaker 2: in the movie Superstar. It's really I will say, Jesus

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Speaker 2: Christ Superstar a very flawed movie. Will be talking about

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Speaker 2: it a lot today. But I feel like the movie

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Speaker 2: is basically like say what you will about Judas, but

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Speaker 2: he kind of is like the best. I feel like

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Speaker 2: this movie is like pro Judas.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this might be blasphemous.

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Speaker 2: Judas had a point.

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Speaker 3: I was rooting for Judas much more than I was

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Speaker 3: rooting for Jesus in the context of this movie.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, no, like literally, okay, there's so much Okay,

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ Superstar. Oh okay, this is the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: This is are intersectional feminist movie podcast, which there actually

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Speaker 2: is a lot to talk about because we're sort of

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Speaker 2: talking about Christianity and Judaism writ large. There's so much

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Speaker 2: to talk about today. So if you don't know what

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Speaker 2: the Bexwel test is, look it up. You know what.

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Speaker 2: I'm not your I'm not your fucking mom. It's my birthday. Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: Does the Bible pass the Bexels test? I would wager not,

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Speaker 2: But let's google it. Oh, let's google it. Oh that's

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Speaker 2: actually a really good, annoying question.

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Speaker 3: I bet it kind of does.

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Speaker 2: But it's a long book.

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Speaker 3: Hopefully, I would say the Bible is not a feminist text.

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Speaker 2: Certainly not, certainly not. Okay, I'm not the first Oh okay,

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Speaker 2: the Bible barely passes the Bechdel test, so it gets

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Speaker 2: a barely pass. To be fair, this is Google AI

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Speaker 2: that you can't turn off, so it could be wildly

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Speaker 2: incorrect and just melted an ice cube. While the Book

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Speaker 2: of Ruth is often cited as a clear example, other

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Speaker 2: books like Exodus, Mark and Luke are also mentioned as

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Speaker 2: containing conversations between women about something other than a man. However,

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Speaker 2: many argue that these instances are sparse and often involve

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Speaker 2: women talking to men or the topic of conversation indirectly

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Speaker 2: relates to men. So I would say, maybe it doesn't pass.

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Speaker 2: This is we've had this. How many times have we

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Speaker 2: had this conversation where it's like, well, they don't name

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Speaker 2: a man, but a man is implied, but we're talking

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Speaker 2: about the ramifications of a man's actions. So yeah, let's

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Speaker 2: right at the top. Does the Bible pass the backseel test?

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Speaker 2: Maybe technically, but spiritually no.

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Speaker 3: Spiritually no, I would say.

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Speaker 2: Spiritually no. And if that's a hot take to you,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, turn the show off, turn the show off.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to tell you. Okay, let's just

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Speaker 2: get into it, because this is a text. This is

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Speaker 2: a text. There is so much going on with Jesus

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Speaker 2: Christ Superstar that I almost regret choosing it. But I

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Speaker 2: do think this is like my last I think because

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Speaker 2: I was going through the list of all of our

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Speaker 2: episodes from the last decade, and I think that this

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Speaker 2: is the last movie that, like really heavily imprinted on

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Speaker 2: me as a kid that we haven't covered. So it's necessary.

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Speaker 2: But I'm curious, Caitlin, what is your history with Jesus

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Speaker 2: Christ Superstar.

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Speaker 3: Well, I saw this movie like many during the Great

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Speaker 3: Caitlin movie binge of two thousand and five.

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Speaker 2: And that's interesting that it made the cut. Honestly, I

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Speaker 2: feel like this movie doesn't have a huge footprint outside

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Speaker 2: of like Sunday School, I know, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, somehow it made the list. I think it was

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Speaker 3: just referenced enough that I was like, I guess I

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Speaker 3: should see it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and Norman Jewison's a big director. I get it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I took it upon myself to watch it

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Speaker 3: and Jamie, I know it's your birthday, so I want

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Speaker 3: to be kind and gentle. But I would say this

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Speaker 3: movie appeals to absolutely zero of my sensibilities and I

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Speaker 3: don't like it at all.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely not your kind of movie. It unfortunately is

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Speaker 2: my exact kind of movie. There's just extraneous dance numbers.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't really make sense.

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Speaker 3: It's loud, it's hard to follow. The songs are not catchy,

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Speaker 3: they're just very repetitive. I don't like Jesus's voice that.

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Speaker 2: I thoroughly agree with that Ted Neely, I just like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I know that that's me

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Speaker 2: five D chessing, being like they made Jesus unlikable so

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Speaker 2: that you would root for Judas. But I do think

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Speaker 2: it's a skill issue, unfortunately, and it's too bad because

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Speaker 2: it seems like Ted Neely is like from what I

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Speaker 2: had learned about him, he seems like a lovely person whatever, whatever,

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Speaker 2: which you can't say for everyone involved, because let's not

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Speaker 2: forget this was baby Andrew Lloyd Weber's little like Money project,

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Speaker 2: and he did, in fact, just steal the Batman theme.

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Speaker 2: This movie is so fun, Okay, can I can I

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Speaker 2: get into my history?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Please?

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Speaker 2: This movie is I'm not gonna say it's good. Although

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's bad. I think it is deeply, deeply,

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Speaker 2: deeply flawed. I think and I could be talked out

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Speaker 2: of this. I do think that this movie and this

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Speaker 2: musical in general, has its heart in the right place.

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Speaker 2: I think that it was There are many elements of

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Speaker 2: it that are subversive in a good way, and many

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Speaker 2: elements of it that are subversive in a counterproductive and

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Speaker 2: sometimes just straight up confusing way. But I saw this

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Speaker 2: movie for the first time when I was I think

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Speaker 2: in fifth grade, because I feel like we've like talked

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Speaker 2: about our respective histories with religion, but like my family

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Speaker 2: was all over the place, like I was baptized Catholic,

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Speaker 2: but then we were kind of like, no, it's too

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Speaker 2: dark in those churches, and so we stopped. And then

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Speaker 2: I went to for a good chunk of my youth,

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Speaker 2: except for when we were briefly into Wickedism. We went

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Speaker 2: to like a I think technically Protestant but a congregational church,

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Speaker 2: which is basically the shorthand of saying it was the

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Speaker 2: only church in my city that was friendly to queer people,

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Speaker 2: and so it was I mean, I will say, like,

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Speaker 2: I feel lucky that I don't have a ton of

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Speaker 2: like religious trauma or baggage in my life because my

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Speaker 2: church was like relatively loosey, goosey and friendly, which you

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Speaker 2: can tell because they showed this to me in instead

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Speaker 2: of like walking us through the Crucifixion story, they literally

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Speaker 2: turned this movie on and they're like, so that is

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Speaker 2: basically what happened, and we were all like, oh, oh,

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Speaker 2: so this musical is very important to me. It also

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Speaker 2: was a big musical for my mom. She it was

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Speaker 2: her like vacuuming music. Oh, for all of my childhood.

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Speaker 2: So we like we were in Andrew Lloyd Webber household.

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Speaker 2: We listened to a lot of Phantom, a lot of

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Speaker 2: Jac's Superstar. We skipped over Cats for some reason. That

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Speaker 2: was where the line was drawn. But yeah, I deeply

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Speaker 2: loved this movie. And Carl Anderson as Judas was one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest, most formative crushes of my life. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I was obsessed with him, and I was really sad

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Speaker 2: he died in two thousand and two, which was shortly

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Speaker 2: after I learned he existed. It really so whatever grade

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Speaker 2: I was in in two thousand and one, I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: he's my crush. We're going to make it work, even

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Speaker 2: though he's seventy or whatever, even though he could be

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Speaker 2: my peepot, We're going to make it work. And then

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Speaker 2: he died. But I still think it's like one of

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Speaker 2: my Like, Carl Anderson is Judas, and there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of stuff going on here, but like It's still one

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Speaker 2: of my favorite performances to watch, I think ever, which

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Speaker 2: is very nostalgia field, but it's also like he's so good.

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Speaker 2: I just think he's so amazing. A lot of this

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Speaker 2: is Carl Anderson Fueld, And then you go back to

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Speaker 2: the original Broadway cast and Judas. I mean this also

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Speaker 2: Ted Neely in the original Broadway cast, which again mistake,

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Speaker 2: but you had Ben Vereen as the original Judas. So like,

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Speaker 2: no matter who, like, Judas is the best character, and

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Speaker 2: I feel like the musical knows that because he's Jesus

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Speaker 2: has exactly one good song, and that's a problem. In

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ Superstar, he has one good song.

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Speaker 3: What do you classify as his one good song?

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Speaker 2: So I'm gonna I'm gonna say it's it's a skip

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Speaker 2: for me, But fans of Jesus Christ Superstar do like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna say this so wrong because because also I

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Speaker 2: would say that Jesus Christ Superstar is probably like I

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Speaker 2: did research for this to see what the interpretation is,

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Speaker 2: but for a long time I was just like, this

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Speaker 2: is a documentary and everything I know about the last

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Speaker 2: days of Jesus' life, like it's in this documentary that

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Speaker 2: I watched Gissemine the song where he's like, what should

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Speaker 2: I that song?

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's the name of the garden? I think where

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Speaker 3: they are the Last Supper.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that song. I get why people like it.

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Speaker 2: I still am like, it's I just Ted Neely's voice.

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Speaker 2: I find so grading, unfortunately, but like Carl Anderson's Got Heaven,

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Speaker 2: he's got the opener and the closer of the movie.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I don't know if there's anyone who's

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Speaker 2: ever argued that this movie is overtly anti Judas, but

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Speaker 2: I like, Judas has the first and the last song,

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Speaker 2: and they're both doing laps around any of Jesus's songs.

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Speaker 2: Mary Magdalen, both of her songs are better than Jesus.

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Speaker 2: Any of Jesus's songs the villains have better. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the villains usually have better songs, but like you're gonna

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Speaker 2: tell me Jesus has a better song than King Herod,

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Speaker 2: And where do we even start with that?

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Speaker 3: Okay, King Herod's song is my favorite.

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Speaker 2: It is so like you're like, is it homophobic? Probably?

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Speaker 2: But is it iconic? Definitely? Like I don't understand, Like

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they were doing there, and the

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Speaker 2: best part is Joshua Mistelle, who is Zero Mistelle's son.

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Speaker 2: So Broadway Netbo.

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Speaker 3: Baby, they don't know who those people are on.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let me take well. It is actually important because

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Speaker 2: Joshua Mustelle is the child of Zero Mistyle, who both

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Speaker 2: originated Tevia and Fiddler on the Roof on Broadway and

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Speaker 2: also originated Max bialis Stock or no, he played Max

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Speaker 2: Bialistock in the original mel Brooks Producers. So he is

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Speaker 2: both an iconic Jewish actor and he was like blacklisted

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Speaker 2: in the fifties. Like he's an interesting guy, and josh

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Speaker 2: Mistell is his son and whatever, he's the NEPO baby

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Speaker 2: that's who plays Harod King Herron.

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Speaker 3: Ok.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Joshua Mistell is straight. But but I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It was so weird. I was like watching because he's

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Speaker 2: still alive and has given interviews about it, and many

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Speaker 2: times he's been asked like, what what was that all about?

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Speaker 2: And he, to his credit, is like, I'm not really sure.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know, and I cannot speak

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Speaker 2: on behalf of the queer community. But I like it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. I like it. It's

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Speaker 2: so good. And like, would I remove that number. I

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Speaker 2: can't say that I would. I look forward to it

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Speaker 2: every time. Yeah, but like why is it why? I mean,

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Speaker 2: why is anything like anything in this movie?

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Speaker 3: That's an excellent question. Why are the like high priests

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Speaker 3: dressed the way they are with a big deal?

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Speaker 2: Well, I can so that. Okay, we're just getting right

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Speaker 2: into it. That is. I wasn't aware of this, but

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Speaker 2: I was looking into like because I assumed that this

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Speaker 2: movie was considered like blasphemous by just about everybody when

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Speaker 2: it came out, because I was like, Jesus isn't supposed

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Speaker 2: to be groovy or whatever, And it wasn't as controversial

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Speaker 2: as I thought it would be. It was a little

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Speaker 2: more well like openly embraced. But there were elements of it.

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Speaker 2: And this gets into the fact that we'll talk about

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Speaker 2: this that this movie was shot mostly in Palestine and

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Speaker 2: majority in the West Bank, but the Israeli government has

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Speaker 2: its fingerprints all over it in terms of the permits

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Speaker 2: required to shoot the movie.

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Speaker 3: They also, I believe, provided some of the funding for

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Speaker 3: the production. It seems that way Yes offered a rebate

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Speaker 3: and then the director was like, wow, thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: Israel yes for doing that for us, and hey, other

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Speaker 3: Hollywood directors, you should go shoot your film in Israel

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Speaker 3: and like just like this glowing endorsement of this illegal

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Speaker 3: settler colonial ethno.

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Speaker 2: State, which is particularly ridiculous when you consider it the

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Speaker 2: majority of the movie was filmed in the fucking West Bank,

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Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, that's I mean, we'll talk about the

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Speaker 2: production of this movie because it's deeply fucked and in

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Speaker 2: some converts of this movie to this day, the word

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Speaker 2: Palestine will not show up in life, like where was

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Speaker 2: this movie shot? Because there's a lot of and this

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Speaker 2: is you know, out of the control of the production

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Speaker 2: at this point because it was fifty years ago. But

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Speaker 2: there are still Zionist publications or Zionist sympathizing publications that

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Speaker 2: will say this movie was completely shot in Israel, with

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Speaker 2: you know, completely, no just nothing, no no acknowledgment of

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Speaker 2: where this movie actually was shot and what the history

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Speaker 2: it is, which, of course, considering what this movie is

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Speaker 2: ostensibly about, is pretty fucking ridiculous. Where occupation is referenced constantly, Yes,

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Speaker 2: so we'll get into that, but oh, I forgot where

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Speaker 2: I was going with that originally. But but yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean this this musical is I mean deeply, deeply, deeply

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Speaker 2: a product of its time, and I yeah, there was.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it was a very difficult one to prep for.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously, I mean hopefully if you're a listener

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Speaker 2: of this show, you're well aware of this already. But

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Speaker 2: you know, any of this movie or productions ties with

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Speaker 2: Israel or any pro Israel rhetoric surrounding this movie is

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Speaker 2: obviously horseshit. I yeah, but before prepping for this, I

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Speaker 2: feel like it's a two prong thing, or it was

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Speaker 2: in my prep where it was like trying to get

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Speaker 2: to the bottom of how is this movie produced and

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Speaker 2: how is it produced like you're saying, Caitlin like in

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Speaker 2: cooperation and actually directly endorsed with Israel. Oh that was

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Speaker 2: what I was going to say earlier. Is that later

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Speaker 2: on Israel kind of disavowed this movie, which who fucking cares?

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Speaker 2: But I will say that the thing that and again,

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Speaker 2: like listeners, let me know if I'm off base here,

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Speaker 2: but one of the things in this movie that does

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Speaker 2: genuinely seem to be anti Semitic is that costume choice

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Speaker 2: you were talking about with the high priests, because those

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Speaker 2: are Jewish high priests that and again I am not

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Speaker 2: an expert on literally any element of this because I

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Speaker 2: watched it as a documentary as a kid. But but

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Speaker 2: that there are a lot of Jewish communities that were

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Speaker 2: sort of turned like, uh, what's the word I'm looking for, monocultured,

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Speaker 2: caricaturized maybe exactly like the characters of Caiaphas and Honest

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Speaker 2: have been criticized as being overtly anti Semitic, and from

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Speaker 2: what I could tell that that does appear to definitely

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Speaker 2: be true where they were just like, oh, every Jewish

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Speaker 2: community is the same, and we're gonna, you know, just

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Speaker 2: sort of create these vague villains who are based on

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Speaker 2: historical people. But for the for the movie is just

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Speaker 2: like it really leans into I think a pretty anti

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Speaker 2: Semitic place. So it's there's just there's just there's a lot.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah, So will you

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Speaker 2: tell me the story of Jesus came?

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Speaker 3: I sure will. I know so much about it. Let's

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Speaker 3: take a quick break first, and then we'll come back

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Speaker 3: for the recap.

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Speaker 2: And we're back.

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Speaker 3: So here's the recap. If it sounds like I'm talking

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Speaker 3: about the events of this famous Jesus story is if

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Speaker 3: I don't really know what I'm talking about or who

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Speaker 3: any of these people are, or if it sounds like

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Speaker 3: I've never read the Bible or been to a Christian church.

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Speaker 2: People are gonna be so shit. It's because that has

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Speaker 2: never read the Bible? How have we not read the Bible?

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Speaker 2: I tried to do a little bit of backgrounded, like

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Speaker 2: how Lucy Goosey is this adaptation. I'll do my best,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, ultimately, neither of us are religious, so this

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Speaker 2: is going to be a challenge, yes.

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Speaker 3: And also again, the movie's kind of hard to follow,

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Speaker 3: especially in the sense that characters will just suddenly show

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Speaker 3: up on screen and they're not really introduced and you

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Speaker 3: don't know who they are in the context of the

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Speaker 3: rest of the narrative, and you're just.

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Speaker 2: Like, I think, who is that? I think that this movie?

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Speaker 2: That's I think that that's like a part of this

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Speaker 2: movie's agenda is that it is assumed that everyone knows

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Speaker 2: who everyone in this is, and like, if you are

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Speaker 2: not familiar with the Bible, this movie is gonna be

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Speaker 2: hard to right. It just genuinely is. I never watched

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Speaker 2: it before with anything other than just like a glaze

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Speaker 2: over my eyes and we'll talk about it. But I

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Speaker 2: was kind of struck with, like, how overtly political. Like

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Speaker 2: a good chunk of the lyrics in this musical are yes.

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Speaker 3: And that's the other thing. There is no spoken dialogue.

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Speaker 3: Every word is a song, and that's just for some

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Speaker 3: reason hard for my brain to pay attention to.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's like it's operatic, and I think that I'm

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Speaker 2: if I'm not miss saying, I think that JAC Superstar

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Speaker 2: started as like a concept album. Yes, so yeah, so

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Speaker 2: it's basically written as an opera.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I kind of like that, but I also feel like

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Speaker 2: it's easier for and maybe this is like our generation problem,

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Speaker 2: but it's like I feel like when everything is sung,

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Speaker 2: there are so many like large chunks of this movie

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Speaker 2: that I was like, oh, I guess I never really

399
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Speaker 2: listened to what they were saying, because you're just like, dude,

400
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Speaker 2: do do do do do do do do, like you're

401
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Speaker 2: like whatever, But then you listen to it, You're like, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay.

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Speaker 2: I've been watching this my whole life, and I was like,

403
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Speaker 2: I just didn't really listen to what Simon was saying.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know who Simon is.

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Speaker 2: I got you, I got you.

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Speaker 3: Okay, all right, here's the story. We are in a

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Speaker 3: desert in Palestine. It's sort of two thousand years ago,

408
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Speaker 3: but it's also sort of contemporary.

409
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Speaker 2: It's the seventies. It's like it's it's I think that

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Speaker 2: the it's supposed to be a bunch of hippies staging a.

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Speaker 3: Play, right because as shows up, Yeah, and people jump

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Speaker 3: off the bus and get into like costume slash character

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Speaker 3: for the movie that we're about to watch. Among them

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Speaker 3: is Jesus Christ ever heard of him? Yeah, played by

415
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Speaker 3: Ted Neely and.

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Speaker 2: A white Jesus. Which, well, it's that's like one of

417
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Speaker 2: the I think most obviously wrong things with this, Like

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Speaker 2: two Well, I should have said in our prep that

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Speaker 2: in two days from now, my mom and I are

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Speaker 2: going to see Cynthia Rivo as Jesus at the Hollywood Bowl. WHOA, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was really excited because she's gonna it's gonna be

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Speaker 2: the first time that I'll be like, consider Jesus and

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ superstar. But Cynthia Riva is playing Jesus and

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Speaker 2: Adam Lambert is playing Judas. But for the two most

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Speaker 2: I think influential productions of this there is a white

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Speaker 2: Jesus and a black Judas. So in the original productions

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Speaker 2: Ted Neelie and Ben Vereen and this production it's Ted

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Speaker 2: Neely and Carl Anderson. This has been I think, like

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Speaker 2: corrected over time. I think the last production of this

430
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: that made a cultural wave was when John Legend played

431
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: Jesus like six or seven years ago. So this is

432
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 2: like a habit that has been corrected over time. But

433
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: white Jesus, white Jesus, yes.

434
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed. Also I read that Ted Neely was like

435
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 3: the Jesus understudy in the stage musical, but he did

436
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 3: like he had gotcha other parts within the stage production

437
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: and then was cast as Jesus in the film. But

438
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 3: either way, still involved in both.

439
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: Bless his heart. Wish he wasn't, wish he wasn't so irritating.

440
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 3: Okay, So we meet the cast as actors.

441
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, they're like community theater. I don't know,

442
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: I don't know.

443
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 3: And then we meet Judas played by Carl Anderson, who

444
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 3: sings a song about Jesus.

445
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: Okay, the outfit is great. I used to really want

446
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: the orange tied I Judas fit. Okay, because it's both

447
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 2: stylish and comfortable. He sings Heaven on Their Minds, which

448
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: is I think, for my money, the best song in

449
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: the musical. To me, it's the best song in the musical.

450
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: But again a very political song right that I think

451
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: like pretty quickly gets us into Judas's head in an

452
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: interesting way where he's just like, Jesus, you're doing too much, Jesus.

453
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 3: That's his way. He's like, I feel like maybe you've

454
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 3: lost sight of the cause and the message that you've

455
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 3: been preaching, Jesus. And yes, I think maybe you're a

456
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 3: false messiah and.

457
00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,120
Speaker 2: Jac superstar like Jesus. The Jesus of this production is

458
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: is so bitchy. Jesus is a is a huge bitch

459
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: in this one, and I think it's funny. My favorite

460
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: scene when I was okay, well, one of my favorite

461
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 2: scenes that I would like to laugh at with my

462
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 2: cousins is when Jesus, I mean I know that this

463
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 2: is like also in the Bible, but that when he

464
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: goes to the temple and he's like he hates it.

465
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: He's acting like he like it's like a Wendy's franchise

466
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: and he's like, this sucks. I hate it. Get it.

467
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 2: Stop everyone's having fun. Stop. I know that that's at

468
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 2: the point of the scene, but I feel like that's

469
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: how he plays it, where he's like, ah, he's just

470
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 2: like freaking out at the all. Yes, yes, it's funny. Okay. Anyways,

471
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: Judas is like Jesus is doing too much.

472
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, there are Roman soldiers trooping around because.

473
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: In crop tops, mind in little tank tops.

474
00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: Tank tops because of course, the Roman Empire has occupied

475
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 3: hide this land.

476
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: Which ironically this movie is not shy, does not shy

477
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 2: away from talking about while actively making deals with Israel

478
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: to make the movie happen.

479
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, right, exactly. So then we cut to Jesus

480
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 3: and his disciples singing.

481
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: What's the buzz? Oh my god, so funny. All the

482
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 2: cuts in this movie are hard cuts because you just

483
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 2: never know what you're gonna cut to. Sure, I think

484
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: the Apostles really come off as real dufes in this movie.

485
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 2: They seem like goofy little guys that are there fanboys,

486
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 2: which I guess is kind of like no offense is

487
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: kind of what the Apostles were, where like Simon is

488
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: kind of the street team. Uh you know there, you could,

489
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: you could, but what's the buzz? Is again one of

490
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: the many songs in this musical that I both have

491
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: a lot of affection for and is like straight up annoying.

492
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: It's annoying song. A lot of these songs and Jesus

493
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: Christ Superstar are straight up annoying.

494
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: I'm glad you've said that.

495
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 2: And I celebrate that. I all of like most of

496
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: the things that are like campy about this movie, even

497
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 2: when they're bad. I love and What's the Buzz is

498
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: an annoying song that will get stuck in your head

499
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: for the rest of.

500
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 3: Your life unfortunately. Yes, yeah, anyway, so we're seeing that.

501
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 3: And then we also meet Mary Magdalene played by Yvonne Elleman.

502
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: Oh right, because she was the one person who was

503
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: actually the main role on Broadway I think, yes, yes,

504
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: and then Ted Neely was the understudy. You're totally right, yeah, yah.

505
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: So Mary is there tending to Jesus as she does

506
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 3: throughout the entire movie, patting his forehead with a damp cloth,

507
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 3: et cetera.

508
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: She's a bit of a foot freak in this interpretation.

509
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: And then Judas shows up to be like, Jesus, why

510
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: are you hanging out with Mary? She's a sex worker

511
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 3: and she doesn't really fit in with your vibe and

512
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 3: your crowd, and Jesus is like, bitch, who are you

513
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 3: to judge anyone exact? And he was right to say it,

514
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: and he was right to say it.

515
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: Judas, you know, Judas is a problematic fave.

516
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: He's a character Jesus warf.

517
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 2: Maybe he is Judas. I'm so glad you said that

518
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: Judas is a swarf because it's true. It's true, it's true,

519
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: and he needs to get over himself. He had like

520
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: I just and then with Jesus and Judas, I do

521
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: think that you're supposed to want to be like at

522
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: certain points like kiss, like there are especially with the betrayal.

523
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess they do kiss. They kind of

524
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: famously kiss.

525
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: And that happened in the Bible. I had to look

526
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: it up, but.

527
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: That you know, Oh no, yeah, there's been wars over

528
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: that kid. It's like it's a very famous it's like Titanic,

529
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: followed by this, yeah, by Judas kissing Jesus before yeah.

530
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, followed closely by the end of Shrek one where

531
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 3: Shrek and Fiona kiss.

532
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: I know, and some people disagree. So people think Shrek

533
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: just beats out. She's a centis by just a little bit,

534
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: but you know, interpret as.

535
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: You will exactly. So Judas is carrying on, and then

536
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: Jesus is like, I'm sorry, but he is whining constantly.

537
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: He's a bitch. He's bitchy. He's like, you will not

538
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: find me arguing this.

539
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 3: He's like, no one even cares if I come or go.

540
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: He's no disciples, He's he's like frown he's pouting, he's frowning.

541
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: He's like, no one listens to be that. Later, when

542
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: he's crowded by people who are poor. I mean, I

543
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: do think there's a larger interpretation that I is. It's

544
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: so weird because I feel like there is like some

545
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: nuance in the way that it's written that Ted Neely

546
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: just does not telegraph at all. Because when he's like

547
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: give me by space, like he has so many like

548
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: annoying little he's just leave me.

549
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 3: I have a lot to say about that scene.

550
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: We'll get there, but we'll get there.

551
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: Yes, anyway, He's like he's whining, and his disciples are like,

552
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: how can you even say that, Jesus, we love you.

553
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: Then we cut to Caiaphas, a Jewish high priest, the

554
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 3: one with the wild hat, and then he has a

555
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 3: he has a little buddy, what's his name Annis?

556
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, And their whole appeal lyric, like you know,

557
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 2: musically is high voice, low voice, and as a kid,

558
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: for me, I was like, this is cartoon, this is

559
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: giving cartoon. Their songs in particular, I for sure never

560
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: listened to the lyrics because I was just like ha,

561
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: big and small.

562
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 3: I had to pay such hard attention. And here's what

563
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: I have deduced that they're singing about.

564
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: And this first, their first song, was added for the movie.

565
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I did read that one of their songs

566
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: was an addition.

567
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: Believe it's this one.

568
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. So basically what they're singing about is they

569
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 3: don't like that Jesus is going around and calling himself

570
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 3: a king and something has to be done about him.

571
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 3: Then we cut back to Jesus and now Mary is

572
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: putting some ointment and murdror on him, and maybe Frankinsonse

573
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 3: is involved, I don't know. But she's singing everything's all right,

574
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: Everything's fine. I forget the melody of.

575
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: That everything's up. Yes, uh yeah. Unfore I well, this

576
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: is more of a like classic bectal cast discussion. But like,

577
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: it is unfortunate that like such a historically compelling character

578
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: as Mary Magdalene is reduced to a handful of like

579
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: Jesus is so awesome. I love kind of songs. I

580
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: love him, but I think that von elleman performance is

581
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 2: like really good. Her second song, in particular, I don't

582
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: know how to love him. I've was obsessed with that song.

583
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: I have like a very strong memory of walking around

584
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: my neighborhood thinking of like a kid in my neighborhood,

585
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: I had a crush on, like saying that song to me.

586
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: I don't know how to love Cory, go wow. Corey

587
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: was my Jesus at the time, brave, and I didn't

588
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: know how to love Corey. He didn't He certainly didn't

589
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: know how to love me. He didn't know I existed.

590
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: Okay, anyway, So Judas is there also, and he's like,

591
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 3: what the hell, Jesus, why did you spend money on

592
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 3: that expensive murror when we could have used it to

593
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 3: feed the poor? And Jesus is basically like, relax, guy,

594
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 3: there's not much we can do for poor people. We

595
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: should just appreciate the nice things we have. And I'm like,

596
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: wait a minute, which.

597
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: Is like a very broad Yeah, I'm curious for Bible

598
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 2: heads out there, how oversimplified is this? Because it's like

599
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: I feel like what I kept losing in the plot,

600
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: or like what was not clearly communicated for those of

601
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: us that aren't Bible heads. Right, I know that Jesus

602
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: knew he was going to die soon, like this whole time,

603
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: he knows he's about to die, But I feel like

604
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: that is not very clearly telegraphed in ways that like,

605
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: I think in this scene he is being callous, but

606
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: also he seems needlessly callous in like sometimes he's being

607
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: like I don't have time. I don't have enough time

608
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: in my life to fix this gigantic systemic problem. But

609
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: that was never clearly communicated because I think it's assumed

610
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: that we know that already. But he just comes off

611
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: looking like, ugh, I don't know, I don't know. You're

612
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: like Jesus.

613
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: It just seems like he doesn't care about poor people.

614
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 2: Which is but canonically not true about him. Sure, exactly,

615
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 2: it's weird.

616
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's bizarre. Then the next day, Caiaphas and a

617
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: council of priests gather to discuss Jesus how he's dangerous

618
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 3: because they think the Romans will kill all of the

619
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 3: Jews because of Jesus's antics, so he has to die

620
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: for the sake of everyone else.

621
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: And I think it's like a play bike. I mean

622
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 2: on that first song between because I really had to

623
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 2: listen to the lyrics of the Caiaphas and Anna's songs

624
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 2: because it's so cartoty and distracting. But I'm pretty sure

625
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: that and again historically I've seen this has been disputed.

626
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: I don't really know, and I know that Kiaphas and

627
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: Annas are the characters that are most commonly accused of

628
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 2: being more overtly anti Semitic, as well as the way

629
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: that the crowds are depicted towards the end of the movie,

630
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: which we'll get to, because I think the way that

631
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: ponscious Pilot is characterized in this movie is like extremely generous,

632
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: which we'll get to, and that is another common criticism

633
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: of this movie. But I'm pretty sure in their first song,

634
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: Kiaphas is both saying what he says to the council

635
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: or whatever you call a group of priests. I don't

636
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: know where He's like, Jesus is dangerous and we have

637
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 2: to kill him. But I think he's also doing that

638
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 2: with the knowledge that like, if he's the one that

639
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 2: makes that call, it will be good for him politically.

640
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: Sure, Yeah, in any case. Jesus meanwhile and his followers

641
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: are traveling through the desert and they're singing, Ho, Sanna, Hey, Sana.

642
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: I don't know what they're saying.

643
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: They love his ass, they love him. They're like yes

644
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: Jesus and say war.

645
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: And then in a different musical number, his disciples are

646
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 3: singing Christ you.

647
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: Noah, I love you, oh my God, oh my God.

648
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: That saw that dance number is unhinged. Okay, so that's Simon's.

649
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: So I had to check this because again, like all

650
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: of this movie is just like a blur in my

651
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: brain where I know all the words, but what any

652
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: of them mean. So Simon is one of the Apostles,

653
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: which I guess I never really connected before. He is,

654
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,959
Speaker 2: from what I can gather, kind of the street team

655
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: of the Apostles, where.

656
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 3: He's leading the flash mobs, et cetera.

657
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's doing the flash mob. He's like the social

658
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: media director of you know, Christianity sort of, I guess.

659
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 2: But so I think that the implication is that, like

660
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: Simon has been away spreading the word of Jesus and

661
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: is bringing all of these people back as followers of Jesus.

662
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 2: And again, I'm like, I know that there's a listener

663
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 2: being like wrong, Jamie, but I really really try. I

664
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: just need you to know that I tried.

665
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 3: I tried.

666
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: I think my understanding of and I think this is

667
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: like a criticism that I have of the movie where

668
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: Simon is coming back and says in that song like

669
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: he is implying that Jesus's presence could be a huge

670
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: difference in liberating the Jews from the Romans, and Jesus

671
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: is sort of like, well, I'm going to die in

672
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 2: three days. But Simon says, yeah, Christ, what word do

673
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 2: you need to convince you that you've made it? And

674
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: you're easily as strong as the filth from Rome who

675
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: rape our country and who've terrorized our people for so long.

676
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: Keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of

677
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: hate at room, you will rise to a greater power.

678
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: We will win ourselves a home. So a lot of

679
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: loaded language there, but I think like that the core

680
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 2: of what he's saying is that Jesus' presence could be

681
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: a liberatory force against an oppressive regime and Jesus like

682
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 2: with regularity is just sort of like no, shrug, Yeah,

683
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 2: you're like, well, what's the point of you then, Jesus.

684
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 2: But I feel like that's not the musical seems to

685
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: feel like Simon is wrong, and the musical seems to

686
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: feel like any like and that I mean, Judas famously

687
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 2: is wrong about certain things, but that like Judas's perspective

688
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: of like I don't know, like I just feel like

689
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: any like larger liberation that is proposed in this movie

690
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 2: is dismissed as being naive. Again, I'm like, I guess

691
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 2: that that's I don't know if that's more criticism of

692
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: this musical's interpretation or the Bible itself. I don't know,

693
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 2: but I know that it bothers me. And it sucks

694
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: to see any character that proposes leveraging someone's celebrity and

695
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: influence to liberate people as being like, well, no, we're

696
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 2: not going to do that, as ridiculous you know, yeah.

697
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was barely following any of that.

698
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 2: Well, it's also because yeah, they're doing like jazz hands

699
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: throughout this like pretty serious political lyrics, so I had

700
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: to It sucks because like when you're reading about this musical,

701
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: you also have to like vet the source considerably because

702
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 2: you're like, this could be any number of like overtly

703
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,479
Speaker 2: religious interpretations of it. And I was like, is there

704
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 2: And I was able to find a few places that

705
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: I felt like were credible that we're able to help

706
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: me through this because because also, I mean, I know

707
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: that this comes up in the conversation around this movie

708
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: all the time, like early to mid seventies was weirdly

709
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: I still can't figure out why, but like God and

710
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: Jesus musicals, people were like, let's do it more because

711
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: this came out the same year as Godspell.

712
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a bunch of movies with like strong

713
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 3: religious overtones and like specifically Christian overtones in this era. Also,

714
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 3: like Monty Python's Life of Brian came out sometime around.

715
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: Here, And if anyone can help me understand why, because

716
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 2: that is not something I've I've seen it obviously presented

717
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: as like, wow, this was happening a lot. I'm like,

718
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 2: surely if it was happening that many times and like

719
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: massively successful, but like what was going I don't know.

720
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: I also think that this movie is like there's a

721
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: few moments where it's trying to make comment on the

722
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: Vietnam War in different places. It's like it's trying to

723
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: do I just don't understand why this, like noween seventy

724
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: three was like Jesus Musical year, but but it was.

725
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, and I'm not I don't. Honestly, god'spell

726
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 2: is none of my business. I don't know.

727
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 3: I've never seen it, don't know it neither.

728
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: I know that Victor Garber plays Jesus, so that's.

729
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 3: Fun Victor of Titanic fame anyway.

730
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: But it's somehow a musical that I find even more

731
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: annoying than this one.

732
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 3: Okay, so all right, So then we meet Roman official

733
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 3: Ponscious Pilot. He has heard about this Jesus fellow, and

734
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 3: I think at this point he doesn't really know what

735
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 3: to make of him. I think again, the songs are

736
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: hard to pay attention to.

737
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: Panta's Pilot is straight up like emo boy, like it's

738
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: so bizarre to me, and I was this was something

739
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 2: I attempted to look into. It's like, is this at all?

740
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: Is this a normal way to portray Pontcious Pilot as

741
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: sort of this? Because I feel like throughout the movie

742
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 2: Pancha's Pilot, who is like a Roman leader. I think

743
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 2: that you could say, like at the time, he would

744
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: have been the most powerful person in the movie in

745
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 2: an immediate sense, but they make it out to be.

746
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: And I guess that this is not super unusual. And

747
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: there's a lot of Western interpretations of pontchous Pilot that

748
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: sort of fall along these lines as like that he

749
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: was and again I don't agree with this, but I

750
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: also don't know the Bible that he was portrayed as

751
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: capitulating to whatever would make him most popular, versus actually

752
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 2: feeling strongly that Jesus needed to be killed. But again,

753
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: the way that it's like telegraphed in this adaptation to

754
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 2: me makes him seem tortured and sympathetic in a way

755
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: that I find really really off putting. This is like

756
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: and I didn't know this still today, but like that

757
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 2: That's another common criticism of the movie is that like

758
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: poncious Pilot, I feel like, is the kind of like

759
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: just such an obvious villain that I don't really I

760
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: don't have a particular interest as if you were, and like, well,

761
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: did he feel conflicted about murdering people? Like who gives

762
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: a fuck. But I feel like this movie kind of

763
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: gives a fuck.

764
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 3: Right, because he's an agent of the occupation.

765
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: The Roman is the occupation, right, So like that's the thing,

766
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: is like he is the occupation. And so if I'm

767
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: understanding the hierarchy correctly, here, ponscious Pilot is like a

768
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: Roman leader. He is the occupation. He has these various minions.

769
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: He sends Jesus off to King Herod because King Herod

770
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: and again, please correct me if you're wrong, but like

771
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: King Herod, I think politically was considered King of the

772
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: Jews at that time, which is why his whole song

773
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: is making fun of Jesus for saying he's king of

774
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:50,959
Speaker 2: the Jews because he's like, I'm King of the Jews

775
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: when I think historically he may not have even been Jewish,

776
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 2: but he was like an enforcer of the occupation. And

777
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: then you have Caiaphas and Annas who are Jewish priests

778
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: who are trying to appease the Roman Empire. But like, yeah,

779
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: poncous Pilot is the most powerful person in the movie.

780
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 2: So I don't understand why. I mean, I understand why

781
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: because that happens in populist movie, making all the time.

782
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: It's why you have fucking like Darth Vader narratives and

783
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: like people love to be like, well, this like oppressive fascist,

784
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 2: Like what's going on in his head? How did he

785
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 2: get there? But I don't know because this music is

786
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: such a mess. I just the performance is fine, you know,

787
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: my hat off to Bury Dennin, but it's just like

788
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: he literally looks like the leader of Like he looks

789
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: like Gerard Way. I'm like, what are you doing? He

790
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 2: looks like he's like my chemical romancing his way through

791
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: this poncious pilot performance where he's like, oh, it's so

792
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 2: hard to have so much power and be like I

793
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: have to kill people. Like I don't know that interpretation, Yeah,

794
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: just I don't. I don't like it. I don't like it.

795
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. That becomes abundantly clear in a scene towards

796
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 3: the end of the movie.

797
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: Right where he like leans down to Jesus. He's like,

798
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 2: I really don't want to do this, but the people

799
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: are asking, so whatever he was in Titanic? Did you

800
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 2: know that? Did you know that Barry Dennan was in Titanic?

801
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: No?

802
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 3: Who did he play?

803
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: Praying man? Oh? Caw wait? Let me actually I didn't

804
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 2: look up a picture because I bet we will recognize

805
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 2: him as praying man.

806
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, please send it to me.

807
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Oh my god. Wait, he's kind of iconic,

808
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 2: remember him.

809
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 3: Oh yeah. And they're like, can you move a little

810
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 3: faster through that valley there, because he's like saying something

811
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 3: something through the shadow of the valley of death. Blah

812
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 3: blah blah. Whoa.

813
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: I was excited to give that fact to you, and

814
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: then I forgot to look up what they meant by that.

815
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: He's literally, wow, he's praying. He's praying man, unlike ponscous pilot. Yeah,

816
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: he was not moving through that valley because he killed Jesus. Anyways,

817
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: what range.

818
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 3: So true? So true? Okay, So then we're at a

819
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 3: marketplace in Jerusalem. Merchants are selling stuff and.

820
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: Jesus at the mall. Jesus at the mall's picked. He

821
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 2: throws a fit at the mall because.

822
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 3: The idea is that this is like a group of

823
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 3: heathens who are shaking their asses and doing drugs and

824
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 3: selling weapons and yeah, stuff.

825
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: Like that, which feels I mean, and this is just

826
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: me my interpretation of the vibes of this scene. It

827
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: feels a little bit tongue in cheek because it's so

828
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: like overtly sexy, and it's like a story without a

829
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: story where you're like, it's so wild that these community

830
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 2: theater actors are shaking their asses right now. But yeah, no,

831
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: Jesus pitches a fit at the mall and you're like, Okay,

832
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 2: he's being Jesus is being a swarf now, but he's

833
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 2: also kind of being anti capitalist, and.

834
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 3: Which is Jesus's whole thing. So I was like, why

835
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 3: weren't you like that before when you were talking to

836
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 3: Judas who knows, but he trashes the market.

837
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 2: He pitches a fit at them all.

838
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 3: He really does. And then Jesus goes to what I

839
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 3: believe is a leper colony, this community of people who

840
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: are disabled and dealing with disease and they're hoping that

841
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 3: Jesus can heal them, and he tries to help, but

842
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: the sheer number of people is overwhelming and he's like,

843
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 3: there are too many of you. Leave me alone.

844
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 2: And I get it. It's like I think that I'm

845
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 2: I'm whatever. There's a lot of things that are wrong

846
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 2: here where it's just like again, this the way that

847
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 2: this narrative is just overall from Jesus's perspective, dismissive of

848
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 2: poverty and dismissive of the underclass in general, like anyone

849
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 2: vulnerable who's like that's that's Jesus, his whole thing. But

850
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: he seems to not be interested in this movie, which

851
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 2: is why I do think it's like it's a it's

852
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 2: partially just not a good performance. Sorry, Ted Neely. I

853
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: feel like the most generous interpretation I could get to,

854
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: but it's like he's not a good enough actor or

855
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: really singer to pull it off. Is like the concept

856
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: of like he is one person and like cannot possibly

857
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: fix something this massive in the amount of time. Like

858
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 2: it's like I do think that there is like this

859
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: element that you can feel in certain numbers. I feel

860
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 2: like it comes across in that song Gosemine, where it's

861
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 2: like his what he wants to accomplish is too massive

862
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: for one person, which but the ways that that's demonstrated

863
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 2: makes him look like a real asshole totally like yeah.

864
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's bizarre. But then we cut to that

865
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 3: night while geez this is sleeping, Mary Magdalene sings about

866
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 3: how she loves Jesus but she doesn't know how best

867
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: to love him.

868
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 2: And I like I do. The part of the song

869
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: that made me laugh this time around was that she

870
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 2: was like, and if he asked me to be his girlfriend,

871
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: I'd be like no. I like like, I'd panic, I'd

872
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 2: say no.

873
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and good for her?

874
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, same, I would. It's too much pressure. I don't

875
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: want to be Jesus's girlfriend.

876
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 3: A lot of pressure.

877
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, the tabloids.

878
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 3: Yes, okay. So then the Batman theme starts playing, no no, no,

879
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 3: no no no no, Judas.

880
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: Who can say why? And there was a whole lawsuit

881
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 2: around this. There was, of course of lawsuit because there

882
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: had to be because also this came out like this

883
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 2: concept album came out in the early seventies, which was

884
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: so close to the Batman Show being on TV that

885
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: it would.

886
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 4: Have been like I was writing a musical about Jesus

887
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 4: and then this theme from SpongeBob just started playing like

888
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 4: it was so Angeloi Webber, what a what a fucking loser?

889
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: Any?

890
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 3: Very bizarre?

891
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

892
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 3: Yeah. So then Judas goes to Caiaphas and his minions

893
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 3: to be like, we got to stop Jesus.

894
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 2: No no no no no no no.

895
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 3: And Caiaphas is like, okay, we'll pay you to tell

896
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 3: us where we can find Jesus. So Judas accepts pieces

897
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 3: of silver and says that they can find him on

898
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 3: Thursday night in a garden that I don't know how

899
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 3: to say what it's called.

900
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 2: I think it's gives them any yep, Okay.

901
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 3: Then we cut to the Last Supper. Jesus and his

902
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 3: twelve apostles break bread and drink wine, and then Jesus

903
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 3: sings about a suspicion that one of the apostles will

904
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 3: betray him, and he knows that it's Judas.

905
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: Real housewives of the Garden of CASSEMONI hmmm, he starts.

906
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 2: He once again can't help himself. He has to pitch

907
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 2: a fit. I mean, to be fair, it's his last

908
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 2: night on earth. Let him cook. But like right, Also,

909
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 2: none of his friends stay up with him on his

910
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: last on the last night of his life, which is rude,

911
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: pretty much rude.

912
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, they should have had a slumber party where they

913
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 3: stay up all night.

914
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 2: They should have watched a movie.

915
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 3: M oh wow. Anyway, so Jesus knows that Judas is

916
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 3: betraying him, so he casts Judas away, and I love

917
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 3: the part where he runs away in the middle of

918
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 3: a bunch of like sheep who were fucking.

919
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 2: Away, makes you think it's us. It's set, it's set,

920
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 2: and it makes you think maybe he's one of the sheep.

921
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 3: Whoa.

922
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I remember my Sunday school teacher pointing that out.

923
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 2: And but good, this is a good use of our time.

924
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So then Jesus sings to God asking

925
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: why God wants Jesus to die.

926
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: I think this song is interesting. I don't Again, I'm

927
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 2: not familiar with the biblical parallel. I don't like the song,

928
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 2: but I like what the song is doing. I feel

929
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 2: like this movie does to varying degrees of I think

930
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: this is one of the movie's more successful moments at

931
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 2: attempting to humanize Jesus and be like, well, if you

932
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 2: had to die for nebulous reasons tomorrow, you would also

933
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 2: be having a bad night. Like that's so true, that's

934
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: so true.

935
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like the way this song builds.

936
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to see Cynthia Arrivo sing that song

937
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: because that neally is so annoying. I'm like, I just

938
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 2: can't root for him. But yes, I like the premise

939
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 2: of that song. Yeah, and then he's like fine, i'll die.

940
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 3: Fine, I'll do it.

941
00:52:55,160 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 2: God, you bitch. He's like, Dad, watch stop killing me.

942
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 2: And I guess God offscreen is like, sorry, sorry, sorry, son,

943
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 2: you'll thank me someday.

944
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 3: And well, just like every other movie, this is a

945
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 3: story about fathers and sons.

946
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 2: I mean, the Bible really is the ultimate fathers and sons. Sorry,

947
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 2: like enough enough already. Okay, So the next morning, Judas

948
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 2: is back and he gives Jesus a little kiss and

949
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: Jesus is like stop that.

950
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 4: Stop.

951
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: Even though Jesus he's so he's so annoying, he's so messy,

952
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 2: where he's like, you have to go do this because

953
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 2: God said you have. Like, because I think that that's

954
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 2: a part of it that also isn't telegraphed well in

955
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 2: the movie, is that like this is all like something

956
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 2: that Jesus knows is going to happen because he was

957
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 2: told it's going to happen. And it's almost like Judas

958
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 2: is doomed to do this in some way, but then

959
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 2: whenever he's doing it, Jesus is like you he suck.

960
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 2: It's just weird, right.

961
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 3: So, also because I didn't know this, I've never read

962
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 3: the Bible, I don't know the details of this story

963
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 3: aside from the very basics of like Judas betrays Jesus

964
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 3: and then he's crucified. Yeah, I didn't know why this

965
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 3: kiss happened. Oh and the movie does not make it clear.

966
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 3: So no, I kind of like that. I kind of

967
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 3: liked that. The movie is just like, what do you think, Yeah,

968
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 3: they just kissed.

969
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 2: Do you like it?

970
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: So?

971
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I like it. Whatever.

972
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 3: Also, when you do like a search online for like

973
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 3: Judas betraying Jesus, because I was like trying to find

974
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 3: this story as told by the Bible to see like

975
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,919
Speaker 3: how it compares to the movie adaptation. When you look

976
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 3: at the like images from this search, most of the

977
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 3: images of this are of Judas kissing Jesus, and it's like,

978
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 3: you know, arguably homo erotic. And I don't know why

979
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 3: people don't talk a at that more.

980
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 2: I think that I do think people do talk about it.

981
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 3: I'm just not paying attention.

982
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 2: No, I just I definitely I don't know. I was

983
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 2: aware of the kids. But I also feel like the

984
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 2: kiss is like I'm trying to think of another like

985
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: piece of media where it's reproduced but the like, well,

986
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: it's actually it's actually reproduced in succession at some point. Whoa, Yeah,

987
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 2: Kendall kisses his father on the cheek before selling him out.

988
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 2: So if you ever see two aggressively straight men doing

989
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 2: a kiss on the cheek, something is about to go down.

990
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 2: But in this movie, I would say that this is

991
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: not at all an aggressively straight movie. It's uh no,

992
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 2: it's I mean, there's a lot of problems with it,

993
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't say that it's rigid. Heterosexuality is one

994
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 2: of them. But yeah, they kiss.

995
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 3: They kiss because Judas had told Kiaphus that the person

996
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 3: thereafter is the one who Judas will kiss. He's like,

997
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 3: the way that you know who you need to arrest

998
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 3: is the person that I'm gonna kiss. Like that was

999
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 3: his little signal, okay Jesus, and so that's why he

1000
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 3: kisses Jesus.

1001
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 2: It's so weird because he could have been like the

1002
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 2: person who's.

1003
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 3: Hand I shake, could have done the person I'm gonna yeah,

1004
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:16,720
Speaker 3: or I'm gonna give an apple to something.

1005
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 2: But it's also like I think it's like I I

1006
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 2: like it, okay, in defense of the Bible, go on,

1007
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 2: because I do believe this story is mostly made up, right.

1008
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 2: I feel like the kiss is a good symbol because

1009
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,800
Speaker 2: and I think that this is well telegraphed in Carl

1010
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 2: Anderson's good performance is that like he loves Jesus and

1011
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 2: that like he's also like knows that he's doing this

1012
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 2: horrible thing and saying goodbye at the same time. So

1013
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 2: I feel like a kiss makes sense because it's like

1014
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 2: if it was a if it was something less intimate

1015
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: or personal, I feel like it would almost be like,

1016
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 2: oh did he and Jesus would say this, did you

1017
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 2: ever even care about me? Did you? Because that's like

1018
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: half of his songs, Like, does anyone even even like me?

1019
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 2: Even like me? I can't believe that? And ever meanwhile,

1020
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: everyone's obsessed with him. He's just like a cheerleader. But

1021
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: I liked and I also just like Carl Anderson kissing

1022
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 2: someone because then I can be like, what if I

1023
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 2: if it was me? Mm hmmm, So yeah, pro kiss.

1024
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,439
Speaker 3: I think they should have kissed on the lips.

1025
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: But I think they should have gone to second base.

1026
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay. So then the Romans capture Jesus

1027
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 3: and his apostles and bring them to Caiaphas who's like,

1028
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 3: how dare you say you're the son of God. Then

1029
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 3: they take Jesus to Ponscious Pilot, who's very condescending, and

1030
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 3: he's like, who even are you Jesus Christ? I have never

1031
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 3: heard of you. You don't seem like a king at all.

1032
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 2: And Jesus regularly and I'm Sugar's a biblical significance, but

1033
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 2: I just think it's fundy where they're like, so do

1034
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:04,919
Speaker 2: you think you're a king?

1035
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 3: Do you think your cave of the Jews? And he's like,

1036
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 3: I don't know. You're the one who said that, you

1037
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 3: not me.

1038
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 2: I know you are, but what am I?

1039
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 4: Like?

1040
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 2: They're like, okay, okay, that was a silly one. I'm

1041
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 2: sure that happens in the Bible. Ball was like whatever, whatever,

1042
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 2: yeah these.

1043
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 3: Queens, Okay. So then Ponscious Pilot kind of passes Jesus

1044
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 3: off to King Herod, who says, well, well, well, if

1045
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 3: it isn't Jesus Christ, son of God, prove it, walk

1046
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: on water and turn water into wine. But Jesus refuses,

1047
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 3: so he's taken away and imprisoned in a cave.

1048
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 2: And we will and we referenced this already, but that

1049
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 2: number is just like needs to be seen to be believed.

1050
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,439
Speaker 3: And the costumes and the makeup in that scene really

1051
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 3: quite something.

1052
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 2: Really just yeah, who I was just like, whose idea

1053
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 2: and why? And I don't I haven't been able to

1054
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 2: find someone who can give a satisfactory answer. But it happens,

1055
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: and that's really kind of the I meant. You cut

1056
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: to Herod once or twice at other points in the movie,

1057
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 2: including at the crucifixion.

1058
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's.

1059
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 2: Really his only part.

1060
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if that's think we've seen him

1061
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 3: in character at least up until this point.

1062
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 2: No. Yeah, you see him in a T shirt when

1063
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 2: you see him come out of the bus.

1064
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and he's like flooping his hair a bit.

1065
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1066
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 3: Anyway, So then we cut to Judas and he suddenly

1067
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 3: feels very guilty about this whole thing. So consumed with remorse,

1068
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 3: Judas hangs himself. Then it's Jesus' trial.

1069
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 2: Spoiler alert, It does not go well.

1070
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 3: Does not go well. No, Caiaphas and the other people

1071
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 3: who are against Jesus saying about how he needs to

1072
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 3: be crucified, and Ponscious Pilot is like, well, I don't

1073
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 3: think we need to kill him. But if it makes

1074
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 3: you feel better, I'll flog him.

1075
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, and I'm just sideyeing this whole narrative. Thirdily

1076
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 2: of like this again, the most powerful colonizer in the

1077
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 2: movie is like I don't want to you made you

1078
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: made me do it, which I do think is another

1079
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 2: and again listeners correct me if I'm wrong, but another

1080
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 2: fairly anti Semitic narrative that surrounds this story that is

1081
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 2: not challenged in this work at all, which is like,

1082
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 2: quote unquote, the Jews killed Jesus, right, And that is

1083
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 2: basically what how Ponscious Pilot is written and how the

1084
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 2: crowd responds like is very not pushing against that interpretation

1085
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: at all.

1086
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 3: I've never seen Passion of the Christ, but I remember

1087
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 3: that being a lot of the discourse around that movie when.

1088
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 2: It came out. Well consider the author exactly. Yeah, one

1089
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 2: of the most anti Semitic celebrities of all time. Yeah,

1090
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it either. I Oh wait, are you

1091
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 2: talking about the Scorsese one or the mel.

1092
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, this corse not the mel Gibson one. Okay, Scorsezy

1093
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 3: one is the last Temptation of Christ.

1094
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: And that's Willem defoe Jesus yes.

1095
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 3: Right, I have seen that one any good. I don't remember.

1096
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 2: I really Yeah. Once I saw Jesus Christ Superstar, I

1097
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 2: was like, I get it. I don't you know, I

1098
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 2: don't think that there's gonna be a more fun way

1099
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 2: to tell this story, so I don't think try to

1100
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 2: watch the others. But yeah, anyways, I and honestly, I

1101
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 2: hadn't thought about that in a long time, and have

1102
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 2: seen this so many times that I didn't even think

1103
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: about it. But when I was going back through it,

1104
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, yeah, that is like pretty straightforwardly adapted,

1105
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 2: without question.

1106
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 3: Yes, So Jesus is publicly flogged. Mary Magdalene watches on

1107
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 3: in horror, but the angry mob still wants to crucify Jesus.

1108
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 3: Then we get a big musical number Jesus Christ Superstar.

1109
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 3: Oh my god, And I don't really know what's happening

1110
01:01:59,480 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 3: here is it?

1111
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 2: I love it? I don't know.

1112
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 3: Okay, here was my interpretation, don't I don't know if

1113
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 3: I'm way off, because this is being intercut with Jesus

1114
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 3: like dragging the cross through the desert and then him

1115
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 3: being crucified.

1116
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 2: Which I think is way better than harping on the

1117
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 2: intense violence of the Crucifixion, which I think is like

1118
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 2: what every other adaptation really and so much Christian imagery,

1119
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 2: like the crucifix in my Grandma's house. You're like, enough,

1120
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: what the fuck?

1121
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 3: I don't know why there's so much like reveling in

1122
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 3: the violence of that, but yeah, the movie, at least

1123
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 3: this movie does not do that.

1124
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 2: They're like, they're like, what if we did the little

1125
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 2: opposite of that and intercut a sexy disco number, so

1126
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 2: questions things. I have thoughts about this. I'm excited to

1127
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 2: hear your thoughts.

1128
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 3: My interpretation is that, like this is sort of a

1129
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 3: flash forward after he has like ascended to heaven. Because

1130
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 3: Judas is also there, everyone is in like white clothes.

1131
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 2: It sort of implies that Judas with heaven and you're like, yes, okay.

1132
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 3: Great, I didn't even think about that.

1133
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, but with a bunch of sexy angels.

1134
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 3: So that was my interpretation. I don't really know.

1135
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think that like it's I

1136
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 2: don't know. To me, I just sort of it feels

1137
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 2: like both a way to circumvent the harping on the

1138
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 2: extreme violence that is like the most common way to

1139
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 2: depict the Crucifixion, and it's like just sort of stating

1140
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 2: the thesis of the movie where in a way that

1141
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 2: I think is very like sympathetic to Judas again where

1142
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 2: hold on, let me just pull up the lyrics, where

1143
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 2: it's like Judas's character and I think it is like

1144
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 2: supposed to be him, you know, saying the same thing

1145
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 2: he did at the beginning, but with the knowledge of

1146
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 2: what happens in the story, where he's like saying why why, why?

1147
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 2: Why was it like that? Let me find I don't know,

1148
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 2: it just feels very like Silly in seventies in some ways,

1149
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 2: where he's like, why didn't you come to Earth in

1150
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 2: the seventies? That's basically the thesis of the song. It's

1151
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 2: like why did you why did you go? Why did

1152
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 2: you choose this time in this place? Where which in

1153
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 2: a way feels very overly optimistic because I don't know

1154
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 2: in the way that I think that a lot of

1155
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 2: the way that this production, in terms of its like

1156
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:28,439
Speaker 2: casting and its politics, are saying like, assume that we

1157
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 2: now live in a less prejudiced and hateful world, which

1158
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 2: of course we do not. But I think that that

1159
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 2: the production takes a more optimistic bent and just gets silly,

1160
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 2: where did you mean to die? Like that? Was that

1161
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 2: a mistake or did you know your messy death would

1162
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 2: be a record breaker? That lyric is nuts, like like

1163
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 2: you can't say that. So yeah, I think that it's

1164
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 2: like the movie's attempt to honestly, like I I've before

1165
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 2: having for this, I knew the words that I never

1166
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: thought about them, because once again you're just thinking about

1167
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 2: Judas's outfit because you're like, whoa, He's wearing a full

1168
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: white suit with like fringe everywhere. He's surrounded by sexy

1169
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 2: angels and he's just like, Jesus, that was so weird.

1170
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 2: Why did you do that? That was wild? And then

1171
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 2: it's over. They get well, they get back in the bus.

1172
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 3: They get back on the bus right so after this,

1173
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:28,120
Speaker 3: but you don't say, Jesus get back on the bus

1174
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 3: and what the hell is that about? Well, because he

1175
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 3: is in heaven, he died.

1176
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 2: Did they really kill Ted Neely? That would be wild

1177
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 2: if in the world of the play they're like, oops,

1178
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 2: we killed Ted Neely?

1179
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 3: Sad, Yeah, I guess it's like symbolic. I'm sure Jesus

1180
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 3: isn't there. But yeah, they get on the bus and

1181
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 3: they drive off the end. Bye bye. So that's the movie.

1182
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

1183
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 2: And we're back where to start. I know we've covered

1184
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 2: a lot of the smaller stuff throughout the recap, but yeah,

1185
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 2: is there anything that is standing out to you? I mean,

1186
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 2: I think that you know, we've talked a little bit

1187
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 2: about how this movie was shot in Palestine and was

1188
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 2: shot in cooperation and like you say, and like you said,

1189
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 2: was partially funded by the Israeli government in a way

1190
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 2: that it's like extremely pernicious and horrible. Yeah, and in

1191
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 2: a way that I think is uh. I guess I

1192
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 2: am surprised has not been brought up more in the

1193
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 2: way for a musical that is still very much around

1194
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 2: that the narratives that exist around its most popular adaptation

1195
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 2: are never discussed. Like, this is all stuff that I've

1196
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 2: learned in the last year or.

1197
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 3: So, And I mean, I have a whole spiels let's

1198
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 3: get into it just about I mean, so the movie again,

1199
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 3: like doesn't shy away from acknowledging that the Romans were

1200
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 3: occupying Palestine at the time these events were taking place.

1201
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 2: But what it does shy away from is Palestine. Yeah,

1202
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 2: and that Jesus was Palestinian and.

1203
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:29,360
Speaker 3: Like Jesus was a brown Palestinian Arab, which again, this

1204
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 3: movie and most media, like mainstream media, that depicts Jesus

1205
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 3: very much subscribes to this idea that Jesus was a

1206
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 3: white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. And this

1207
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 3: movie is no exception. There is more diversity in the

1208
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 3: cast than I would have expected.

1209
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 2: Right, But it's pointed like, I think what's interesting is

1210
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 2: there is diversity in this movie, and I like that.

1211
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 2: In the framing device, it's like, this is a group

1212
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 2: of actors in the seventies question Mark just making a

1213
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 2: deal with the Israeli government to put on a play,

1214
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, that's fucking horrible, especially if you

1215
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 2: consider what the plight of the Palestinian people was in

1216
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, where there is an ongoing occupation, and

1217
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of I mean Norman Jewison also,

1218
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 2: his other most famous movie is Fiddler on the Roof,

1219
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:34,680
Speaker 2: which specifically the theatrical adaptation, but I've never seen it,

1220
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 2: but my understanding is the theatrical adaptation of it takes

1221
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 2: a far more Zionist bent than the stage musical did,

1222
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:45,519
Speaker 2: and so Norman Jewison while he was a Christian director,

1223
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 2: which I think a lot of people get confused about

1224
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 2: because of his last name, where it's like, yeah, I

1225
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 2: guess if my name was Jamie Mormon, people would make assumptions.

1226
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 2: But he was a Christian director, but in his two

1227
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 2: most famous movies either took a Zionist bent or in

1228
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:07,480
Speaker 2: the case of Jesus Christ Superstar literally was in cooperation

1229
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 2: and being funded by Zionists. And yeah, I mean it's

1230
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 2: it's so much of we see of what we still

1231
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 2: see spoken about now, and this feels particularly horrific when

1232
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 2: Gaza is being literally starved before our eyes as we

1233
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 2: record this to see even a movie that has a

1234
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 2: small part in uplifting this false narrative, while also like

1235
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 2: you're saying, Caitlin saying the right things and being anti occupation,

1236
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 2: but it's like it's only anti occupation to a point,

1237
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 2: because it's like it's anti occupation but unwilling to acknowledge

1238
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 2: Palestinians in any way, shape or form.

1239
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 3: Right, like you have Judas singing lyrics something to the

1240
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 3: effect of, listen, Jesus, do you care for your race?

1241
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:06,360
Speaker 3: We are occupied? Have you forgotten how put down we are.

1242
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 3: But also this is coming from the person that we

1243
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 3: are meant to think is the villain or that, like

1244
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 3: you know, in this narrative, Judas is maybe not this.

1245
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,320
Speaker 2: Movie, Judas is definitely the best. Yeah, that's the thing.

1246
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:22,760
Speaker 2: I think that like that, again, I don't know how

1247
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 2: Judas is portrayed in the Bible because I just am

1248
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 2: not going to read it, but that, like Judas is,

1249
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 2: it's so frustrating because it's like Judas's perspective I think

1250
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 2: is like made out by the movie to seem valid

1251
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 2: at different points, but then isn't at other points. And

1252
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 2: I think Simon is very similar, where like Simon is

1253
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 2: I think effectively making the argument of like leverage your

1254
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 2: power and your influence and all of these followers we

1255
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:54,360
Speaker 2: have won you to help dismantle this oppressive force, and

1256
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 2: Jesus is sort of like that's not possible. I can't

1257
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:00,719
Speaker 2: do that. And I don't know, like it's just it's

1258
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 2: so muddy. But I do think it's interesting that the

1259
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 2: message is overtly stated repeatedly, but like you're saying by

1260
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 2: characters who are ultimately either villainous or misguided, even if

1261
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 2: they love Jesus where it seems like ultimately the Jesus

1262
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 2: shrug is like the takeaway, which is which is really

1263
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:24,640
Speaker 2: really frustrating.

1264
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you would think this movie would be way more

1265
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:33,040
Speaker 3: anti occupation, or that Jesus would be way more outspoken

1266
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:37,599
Speaker 3: about the occupation, but it kind of doesn't really happen.

1267
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 2: Again in the source text, I don't know, you know

1268
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 2: exactly what is said or isn't, but it's like Jesus,

1269
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:49,559
Speaker 2: even in the most like popular like straight up white

1270
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 2: Christian nationalist interpretation, is a champion of the underclass.

1271
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, people living in poverty, people who are dealing with

1272
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 3: who are sick illness, who are sex workers? Like right,

1273
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 3: everyone knows this about Jesus, the.

1274
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 2: Politically disenfranchised exactly, And that is not the vibes this

1275
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 2: Jesus is giving off, not at all.

1276
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 3: That's those traits are more ascribed minus the like pro

1277
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 3: sex work ideology. Those traits are ascribed to Judas, Yeah,

1278
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 3: way more so.

1279
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I feel like what comes across clearly

1280
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 2: to me about like what he does at the end

1281
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:29,240
Speaker 2: when he famously tells everyone where Jesus is.

1282
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 3: That was bad, That was bad. He should not have

1283
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 3: done that.

1284
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 2: I wish he had that was and he was bad

1285
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 2: for that. But at the beginning, I feel like Judas

1286
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:41,639
Speaker 2: is real flaw and I again, it's like a smarter

1287
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 2: musical maybe could have like expressed these ideas better. Is that,

1288
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 2: Like so much of where Judas is coming from is

1289
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:56,040
Speaker 2: he wants his people to be liberated, but he's afraid,

1290
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 2: and he's afraid of like what the occupying for is

1291
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:02,599
Speaker 2: going to do if they are too loud? Like that's

1292
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:04,640
Speaker 2: the whole point of the first song of Like he

1293
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 2: wants to be liberated, but he's afraid that they're being

1294
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 2: they're being so loud that it's counterproductive, which is like

1295
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,759
Speaker 2: a flawed mindset, right, Like that's not a revolutionary mindset

1296
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,599
Speaker 2: at all. But then it's like it's not like Jesus

1297
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,719
Speaker 2: seems to have that agenda at all, right, where I think,

1298
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 2: like of the perspectives presented in the movie, I'm like

1299
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 2: kind of most with Simon because Simon, like I feel

1300
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 2: like Simon had is the only person who seems to

1301
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 2: have a plan and Jesus says no to the plan,

1302
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 2: but there was a plan.

1303
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I I don't know. It's I don't know what

1304
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 3: to make of so much of this.

1305
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 2: It's a mess. And it's also like you know, written

1306
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 2: by with all due respective I mean, I Andrew Laid Webber.

1307
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:55,679
Speaker 2: You know, he's who's politically a nightmare, right, Like Andrew

1308
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 2: Laid Webber is a political fucking trash fire, and like

1309
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 2: is deeply hated by most of his fans. Yeah, I

1310
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 2: mean truly, Like I think Andrew Lee Webber is a

1311
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:10,640
Speaker 2: great example of like someone whose work is like storied

1312
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:13,439
Speaker 2: and lauded, and all of his fans are like, well,

1313
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,680
Speaker 2: don't listen to what he says, like because he is

1314
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,599
Speaker 2: like a right wing freak who like grew up rich,

1315
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:23,519
Speaker 2: and it's just like he's horrible. So is he the

1316
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:25,600
Speaker 2: person who I trust? And he wrote this when he

1317
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 2: was twenty two and so you're like, do I trust

1318
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 2: a wealthy, white twenty two year old who grew up

1319
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 2: in a conservative household to give me anything here? No fair?

1320
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know how musicals work. Really. He

1321
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:42,680
Speaker 3: wrote the music, right, but like not the book and

1322
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 3: lyrics because that was Tim Rice.

1323
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:45,280
Speaker 2: That's Tim Rice.

1324
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then the screenplay for this movie was co

1325
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 3: written by director Norman Jewison and Melvin Bragg. Yeah, so

1326
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 3: it's a lot of white men making this.

1327
01:14:57,880 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I the.

1328
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 3: Thing I want to say about jew Udas, even though

1329
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:05,519
Speaker 3: and Jamie, you and I agree that he's the best

1330
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:08,640
Speaker 3: character and he's the most fun to watch and.

1331
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:13,679
Speaker 2: The anthemist actor going with nice compliments towards Carl Anderson, and.

1332
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:18,120
Speaker 3: We're kind of rooting for him most of the time. Culturally,

1333
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:24,840
Speaker 3: Judas is not thought of favorably by no most Christians,

1334
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:30,840
Speaker 3: and so I liked, yeah, sorry, you heard it here first. Well,

1335
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 3: so I think casting a black actor in that.

1336
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 2: Role absolutely it's racist. Yes, particularly I think like that,

1337
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:44,639
Speaker 2: and this is done on stage, it's done in the movie.

1338
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 2: The image of the hanging. I think it's very upsetting

1339
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:52,879
Speaker 2: because that is a casting choice that is made throughout

1340
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:56,599
Speaker 2: at least the early history. And again that's like that

1341
01:15:56,680 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with the quality of Ben Verie

1342
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:04,400
Speaker 2: or Carl Anderson's performances. As we said, they're they're doing

1343
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 2: laps around Jesus every time. But it's Yeah, the optics

1344
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:12,519
Speaker 2: of it are very very ugly, especially because he is

1345
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 2: the most prominent black actor in the movie, so there

1346
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 2: is no like, well, there are other black characters that

1347
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 2: have a lot of other different perspectives. Like that's not true.

1348
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:23,519
Speaker 2: There are other black actors, but most of them appear

1349
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:26,320
Speaker 2: in the background or in dance sequences or I mean

1350
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 2: there are black and brown actors. Like you're saying it

1351
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:31,439
Speaker 2: is not a completely whitewashed movie, but the parts of

1352
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 2: it that are whitewashed are I mean, are Jesus like

1353
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 2: the most famously, poorly incorrectly whitewashed person ever this movie

1354
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:47,040
Speaker 2: does nothing to which And again, like knowing the composer's politics,

1355
01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 2: I'm not shocked to hear. And it's just like he's

1356
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 2: lucky that the likes of Ben Vereen and Carl Anderson

1357
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:56,439
Speaker 2: would would touch it. But I agree. I mean, it's

1358
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 2: like there's not that I'm not saying I want this,

1359
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:01,360
Speaker 2: But when you were saying that, where you're like, well,

1360
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:03,960
Speaker 2: clearly he's wrong, I was like, what if Judas got

1361
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 2: like the wickedification of Judas is scariot, you know, like

1362
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 2: I'd watch it Judas wicked because there's like Judas wicked

1363
01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:17,719
Speaker 2: moments because I yeah, like we're saying, like, this movie

1364
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:23,080
Speaker 2: is not unsympathetic to Judas's plight, but ultimately they're like

1365
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:27,640
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you know, the okay, someone,

1366
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:31,200
Speaker 2: which is weird because Stephen Schwartz, who wrote Wicked, also

1367
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:36,800
Speaker 2: wrote Godspell. Oh that was his first musical. So Stephen Schwartz, well,

1368
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 2: actually not you. Someone can someone give me the wickedification

1369
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:45,879
Speaker 2: of Judas? I'd watchy, I'd watch that. But yeah, ultimately,

1370
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:49,640
Speaker 2: it's it's the casting. Like casting a black actor repeatedly,

1371
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 2: particularly opposite a white Jesus is like, be fucking serious, serious, Yeah.

1372
01:17:56,439 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 3: Director Norman Jewison was asked by the Vatican Press why

1373
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 3: he cast a black actor for Judas, and he said

1374
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:11,719
Speaker 3: that Carl Anderson quote tested along with many others in London,

1375
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,479
Speaker 3: and as always happens, the film really told us what

1376
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:19,080
Speaker 3: to do. The test was so successful that there really

1377
01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:21,840
Speaker 3: wasn't any doubt in my mind at all that he

1378
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:24,960
Speaker 3: was the most talented actor to play the role unquote,

1379
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:26,760
Speaker 3: and I doubt.

1380
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:29,160
Speaker 2: That he's way better than most of the actors in

1381
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:29,679
Speaker 2: the movie.

1382
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 3: He's very talented. But you do have to consider and

1383
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 3: like and there should be far more casting choices and

1384
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:42,439
Speaker 3: hiring practices and everything based on merit. However, when there

1385
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 3: is a harmful trope that already exists of casting black

1386
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 3: and brown actors to play villains, you gotta be really

1387
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:52,960
Speaker 3: careful with your casting choices.

1388
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 2: So I agree, and like I think that like and

1389
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 2: again it's like we're two white people have this discussion. Yes,

1390
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 2: I feel like it's like if Carl Anderson uncontested, I mean,

1391
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,160
Speaker 2: you can't see the Ben Vereen performance, you can only

1392
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 2: hear it. It's also great, But like Carl Anderson, I

1393
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:14,400
Speaker 2: feel like, is the definitive Judas in this musical. And

1394
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 2: it's like, then cast other black actors in other roles,

1395
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:24,200
Speaker 2: like because like speaking to this like long criticism of

1396
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 2: this movie, if that is the only black actor, you're

1397
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 2: giving a prominent role too in the movie.

1398
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:30,960
Speaker 1: You know.

1399
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 2: Norman Jewison's sort of explanation is like, well, that's on you,

1400
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:36,759
Speaker 2: that's your fault.

1401
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 3: I mean, we're saying that the actor who plays Simon,

1402
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 3: Larry Marshall, is a black actor.

1403
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 2: But I but I would also qualify that with not

1404
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 2: to the degree that Judas is wrong, he is similarly

1405
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:58,640
Speaker 2: dismissed as being naive. I think it's like interesting that

1406
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:03,400
Speaker 2: you know, both Judas and Simon are the two apostles

1407
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:06,679
Speaker 2: who are saying the most overtly political things. They're played

1408
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 2: by black actors, and they are both either villainized or dismissed. Right,

1409
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 2: And that said, the Larry Marshall performance, Oh boy.

1410
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:19,120
Speaker 3: Fun, he's dancing his little heart out.

1411
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:21,640
Speaker 2: He was in the full Monty on Broadway.

1412
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 3: Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, he's also only prominently featured in

1413
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:29,600
Speaker 3: one scene.

1414
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,640
Speaker 2: To the point where, to be fair, that's most characters

1415
01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 2: in this movie.

1416
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,080
Speaker 3: That's true. But to the point where at the beginning

1417
01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:40,599
Speaker 3: of this episode where I was like, who's Simon again, Like,

1418
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:42,960
Speaker 3: I kind of don't know that character.

1419
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 2: I think theoretically you're supposed to know who it is

1420
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:48,120
Speaker 2: because it's it. But that's a part of the problem

1421
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:50,600
Speaker 2: of like it's assumed that ever that I mean, it

1422
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 2: further shows that this movie is made specifically for a

1423
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 2: Western audience or for a like overtly Christian or Jewish audience,

1424
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,920
Speaker 2: because if you are familiar with the story that it

1425
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 2: does not do anything to pull you in on what's

1426
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:08,439
Speaker 2: going on. But I do, yes, it's while Simon is

1427
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 2: played by a black actor, I would say that, Yeah, like,

1428
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 2: Simon is not a prominent character, even if he's a

1429
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:16,559
Speaker 2: memorable you know, it's a memorable number. Yeah, it's the

1430
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:21,320
Speaker 2: best dance number in the movie. It's the most intense

1431
01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:24,439
Speaker 2: dance number in the movie. I will say King Herod's

1432
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:28,599
Speaker 2: song is a really fun dance now that you bring

1433
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 2: him up, I talk about it. Let's talk about it.

1434
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:34,040
Speaker 3: I mean, we'll get to Mary Magdalen. But because we're

1435
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:36,559
Speaker 3: kind of on this topic, I would say the queer

1436
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:41,639
Speaker 3: coding what of ponchous Pilot and King Herod ponchous Pilot.

1437
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:44,600
Speaker 2: I feel like for me, poncous Pilot is open to interpretation.

1438
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:48,679
Speaker 2: I definitely think I think more. I guess I didn't

1439
01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:50,320
Speaker 2: really think of it as queer coding. As much as

1440
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:52,920
Speaker 2: I thought of it. It was just like, I don't know,

1441
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:55,640
Speaker 2: I thought that ponchous Pilot for me was more complicated,

1442
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 2: like politically, where it's like he's made out to be

1443
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:01,280
Speaker 2: way more sympathetic than makes I guess, But I mean,

1444
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:08,160
Speaker 2: King Herod, what the hell? What the hell? I don't know.

1445
01:22:08,400 --> 01:22:13,000
Speaker 2: I would be curious what our listeners think, because I

1446
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:14,960
Speaker 2: do think that there is a read of this that

1447
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:20,280
Speaker 2: is like, this is a beloved dance number. This is like,

1448
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:24,280
Speaker 2: I think, been very embraced for the campy number that

1449
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:28,000
Speaker 2: it seems to want to be. But the fact that

1450
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:32,920
Speaker 2: there is heavy queer coding for seemingly no reason at all,

1451
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:35,680
Speaker 2: is you know, unquestionable.

1452
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 3: I mean I think the reason is that King Herod

1453
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 3: is a villain to Jesus. So they're just going to

1454
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,200
Speaker 3: do the thing. Yeah, that a lot of media does

1455
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:47,240
Speaker 3: Mary Magdalen.

1456
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:52,559
Speaker 2: I love Yvonne Elleman. She's so talented, she's so wonderful.

1457
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:54,920
Speaker 2: She also had like a number of hits in I

1458
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:57,919
Speaker 2: think like the seventies and eighties she was like missus

1459
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:01,760
Speaker 2: adult contemporary radio. I guess it's like, unfortunately, there's not

1460
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 2: a ton to say about Mary Magdalene as it pertains

1461
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:08,680
Speaker 2: to this. I genuinely don't know how much more we

1462
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 2: get of Mary Magdalene's story, although we could talk about

1463
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 2: The Da Vinci Code, which is a documentary about Mary Magdalene.

1464
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 3: Yes, feminist text, the da Vinci Code.

1465
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:21,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean she's here. It's I will say, like,

1466
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:25,920
Speaker 2: this is a character who is canonically a sex worker,

1467
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:30,800
Speaker 2: who is presented as a human right like, is presented

1468
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 2: as a human who is loved and can be loved.

1469
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 2: And unfortunately that is not something that you frequently see,

1470
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:45,160
Speaker 2: particularly the further back in history you go. So that's good.

1471
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 2: They unfortunately she is really only left to be like,

1472
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 2: I love Jesus. That's like it.

1473
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:57,879
Speaker 3: Most of the scenes she's in, she's tending to Jesus,

1474
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:02,439
Speaker 3: and her whole care is just sort of like there.

1475
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:04,520
Speaker 2: Boyfriend's gonna be killed.

1476
01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:07,719
Speaker 3: No, And I'm sure that's a source material problem.

1477
01:24:07,920 --> 01:24:11,040
Speaker 2: I no, yeah, I don't. I don't think that they were.

1478
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 2: They very Negdalen was a feminist hero who was reduced.

1479
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:20,639
Speaker 2: But again, it's like, clearly the agenda of this musical

1480
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 2: is to be subversive and to add things, and I

1481
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:28,080
Speaker 2: think like in the case of people like Judas, that

1482
01:24:28,280 --> 01:24:31,679
Speaker 2: is done where we do get a clearer look into

1483
01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:37,719
Speaker 2: his inner life and specifically his politics. With Mary Magdalene, again,

1484
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 2: I think it's just like kind of a classic sexist

1485
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:43,480
Speaker 2: thing that is done, where it's like she her existence

1486
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:48,600
Speaker 2: is political and Jesus's love and acceptance for her is political.

1487
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:51,200
Speaker 3: But how does she feel about anything?

1488
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:56,320
Speaker 2: Exactly? Exactly? And they don't have an interest in it,

1489
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 2: which is like, well, if you look at the number

1490
01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 2: of men that wrote and imposed and directed and adapted, like,

1491
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:06,040
Speaker 2: there's just not any It doesn't seem like there's anyone

1492
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:10,320
Speaker 2: with any meaningful interest in how she would feel, which

1493
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:13,599
Speaker 2: is a bummer because it's like a bummer, but like

1494
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 2: because there's space for that here, and it like very

1495
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 2: cleanly fits into what it seems like the agenda of

1496
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 2: this is. But they just are unable to consider her,

1497
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:31,080
Speaker 2: like she's treated like almost a person but then close,

1498
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:35,920
Speaker 2: so close, and yet they cannot conceive of her having

1499
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 2: any feeling about something that is not her boyfriends. Yeah,

1500
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 2: and washing her boyfriend's feet, come on, gross grosbr all

1501
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:48,600
Speaker 2: over him. I think she did canonically do that, but

1502
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 2: also yucky.

1503
01:25:50,040 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 3: No, there's a scene where she's doing that. They're saying, no.

1504
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:54,600
Speaker 2: I mean, like in the Bible, I think she's I

1505
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:56,840
Speaker 2: think she's a she's a she's a foot freaking the

1506
01:25:56,880 --> 01:25:57,559
Speaker 2: Bible as well.

1507
01:25:58,040 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 3: See come on.

1508
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:02,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not kink shaming, but like, tell me

1509
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 2: something else about her.

1510
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:08,120
Speaker 3: That's the thing. People with a foot kink. They contain multitudes.

1511
01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:14,639
Speaker 2: Although she's von Ellman is very fun uh fun gal.

1512
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:17,559
Speaker 2: I'm really I think she's uh, she's got a fun

1513
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:20,839
Speaker 2: story of like how she got involved and then became

1514
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:25,760
Speaker 2: a popular disco artist after this came out, So at

1515
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:29,760
Speaker 2: least we got ivon Ellerman disco. I don't know all

1516
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:32,520
Speaker 2: of this. This movie is also just like so terminally

1517
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:38,120
Speaker 2: seventies in every single way that it's like incomprehensible. You're like,

1518
01:26:38,200 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 2: sometimes you're just like, what the why would you do that?

1519
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 3: Everyone's wearing bell bottoms.

1520
01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:48,639
Speaker 2: Everyone's like it's just like, I mean, yeah, this is

1521
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not the first or last to say this

1522
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 2: butt Andre Loyd Webber musical, But it's just like this

1523
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:57,400
Speaker 2: musical doesn't have two brain cells to rub together. It's

1524
01:26:57,400 --> 01:27:00,639
Speaker 2: just it's like it's ridiculous, which is that's why I

1525
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,840
Speaker 2: fell in love with it, I guess. But yeah, there's

1526
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:07,960
Speaker 2: sometimes you're like, there there are some actually like oh,

1527
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:10,320
Speaker 2: this is a huge problem with this musical, and like

1528
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 2: let's trace it to why that might be. And then

1529
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:14,840
Speaker 2: there are some things about this musical that you're like,

1530
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 2: I don't fucking know. I don't think he knows is Crokats?

1531
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 2: Like who fucking knows?

1532
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:25,680
Speaker 3: Wow? I mean also worth mentioning that if you're if

1533
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:30,160
Speaker 3: you're considering like the main three players of this movie

1534
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:36,519
Speaker 3: being Jesus, Mary, and Judas, two of those characters are

1535
01:27:36,600 --> 01:27:43,080
Speaker 3: played by actors of color. Ivon Elleman is mixed. She's Japanese, Chinese,

1536
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 3: and Irish. But when you consider again a black actor

1537
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:50,680
Speaker 3: playing the villain of the story and a woman of

1538
01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:55,519
Speaker 3: color being given basically no characterization, no story, it's the

1539
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:59,639
Speaker 3: illusion of diversity, but it's not meaningful.

1540
01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 2: Right, is especially frustrating given like the caliber of a Yeah,

1541
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:06,920
Speaker 2: and I'm just gonna keep dragging ted Neely, but like,

1542
01:28:07,040 --> 01:28:10,480
Speaker 2: given the caliber of performance from Carl Anderson and Vonelleman

1543
01:28:10,680 --> 01:28:15,960
Speaker 2: compared to ted Neely, You're like, it's just ridiculous. Yeah.

1544
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:19,439
Speaker 2: I think that, like there's there's so much about this

1545
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:22,479
Speaker 2: movie that just like it is such again that the

1546
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 2: product of its time, that's like a huge product of

1547
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:28,040
Speaker 2: its time issue. I think that I don't know. I'm

1548
01:28:28,120 --> 01:28:31,640
Speaker 2: curious how this like new stage adaptation is going to

1549
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:36,920
Speaker 2: work subvert or not subvert. I really, really, really really

1550
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:41,679
Speaker 2: hope that they that this production acknowledges this story's roots

1551
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 2: in Palestine specifically. I don't feel hopeful because of how

1552
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:52,519
Speaker 2: negligent most institutions are in doing so, but but also

1553
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:56,640
Speaker 2: in like like the optics that you're talking about. I

1554
01:28:56,960 --> 01:28:59,840
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know this. There's a part of

1555
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:03,479
Speaker 2: me it's like this this musical is best left in

1556
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:07,000
Speaker 2: the past, right, But that's the problem with musicals is

1557
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 2: that like, if there is a single bop in it,

1558
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:13,400
Speaker 2: it will never go away ever, and there are unfortunately

1559
01:29:13,439 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 2: bops in this and so this is uh.

1560
01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:18,840
Speaker 3: This subjective.

1561
01:29:20,200 --> 01:29:23,040
Speaker 2: Okay, listen, sorry to be a bitch on your birthday.

1562
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:26,479
Speaker 2: But I okay, yeah, you're being a bitch on my birthday.

1563
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:28,160
Speaker 2: I yeah.

1564
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:32,080
Speaker 3: So now there's there's some catchy tunes, I suppose, yeah,

1565
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:35,920
Speaker 3: but yeah, I mean. Another thing that is not handled

1566
01:29:36,160 --> 01:29:41,439
Speaker 3: well is the representation of disability in the movie. The

1567
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:46,599
Speaker 3: scene where Jesus goes to the leper colony that people

1568
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:51,519
Speaker 3: want him to heal them. The characters there, they are

1569
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 3: of course sick and disabled. They are shown as being

1570
01:29:55,760 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 3: in pain and in desperate need of healthcare should be

1571
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:04,880
Speaker 3: just a basic human right, of course, in an occupation

1572
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:06,160
Speaker 3: like this, it wouldn't be.

1573
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:09,479
Speaker 2: And also, I mean, to be fair, two thousand years

1574
01:30:09,479 --> 01:30:12,040
Speaker 2: in medicine. Yeah, it's not like that we can take

1575
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 2: them to the hospital.

1576
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:16,320
Speaker 3: But but but there are they are isolated and they're

1577
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:19,639
Speaker 3: cast out of society. So this is all very understandable. However,

1578
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:22,360
Speaker 3: I would argue that there is another layer that the

1579
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:24,800
Speaker 3: movie adds to this as far as like portraying these

1580
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:30,320
Speaker 3: people as being creepy and grotesque, I agree, in the

1581
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,840
Speaker 3: way a lot of media portrays disabled people.

1582
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:37,120
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree. And I think it's like yet another

1583
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:41,920
Speaker 2: example of like the moments the things in the there

1584
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:46,160
Speaker 2: is like a limit to what this production is willing

1585
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:50,080
Speaker 2: to subvert exactly, and it's like very telling what it's

1586
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 2: willing to suvert. Yeah, and and and that feel that's

1587
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 2: from what I understand, is of just straight ahead the

1588
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:03,439
Speaker 2: way that group is always portrayed, and this movie does

1589
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:07,320
Speaker 2: nothing to and also to add the shitty Ted Neely

1590
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:10,720
Speaker 2: perform as him being like ew, go away away from me.

1591
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 2: I blamed him for that, but it's still fucking awful.

1592
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. The other kind of similar thing is there's a

1593
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:22,160
Speaker 3: very very small part like blink and you'd miss it

1594
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:24,479
Speaker 3: kind of thing. But there's this part of the movie

1595
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:30,080
Speaker 3: where it's during the song where Jesus is asking God

1596
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:34,040
Speaker 3: about why he wants Jesus to die and the.

1597
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 2: Part where the one where he goes, WHOA should I die?

1598
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:41,040
Speaker 2: There's a part I want to say that before I die?

1599
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:45,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, please do. There's a part where we see a

1600
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:49,720
Speaker 3: few like flashes of still images they're like illustrations and

1601
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:53,360
Speaker 3: paintings that are kind of flashing on screen as he's singing,

1602
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 3: And most of these illustrations are of Jesus being crucified,

1603
01:31:59,560 --> 01:32:02,479
Speaker 3: but there are a few quick images, and I'm curious

1604
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:05,519
Speaker 3: if you spotted this, Jamie, there are a few quick

1605
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:12,680
Speaker 3: images of like onlookers witnessing the crucifixion that resemble the

1606
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:17,320
Speaker 3: very anti Semitic way that Jewish people would be depicted

1607
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:21,600
Speaker 3: in like Nazi and other anti Jewish propaganda.

1608
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:24,720
Speaker 2: I did not catch that, but I do feel like

1609
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 2: that ties into what we were talking about earlier about

1610
01:32:28,200 --> 01:32:34,479
Speaker 2: how little this movie pushes back on villainizing Jewish people

1611
01:32:34,520 --> 01:32:39,960
Speaker 2: in general and blaming them for Jesus's death, while like

1612
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:42,599
Speaker 2: what this musical is also doing and like the limits

1613
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:47,679
Speaker 2: to its empathy is that it was like everyday Jewish

1614
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:51,479
Speaker 2: people that forced the occupying force to do this, which

1615
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:53,840
Speaker 2: is like, if you you know, think about it for

1616
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:56,920
Speaker 2: a microsecond, is fucking ridiculous. But I didn't notice that

1617
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:59,280
Speaker 2: they also put a visual to it that's terrific.

1618
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:02,679
Speaker 3: It's literally three quick images, maybe two to or three.

1619
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 3: They flash on screen for less than a second each,

1620
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:08,880
Speaker 3: So it's again like if you're not looking at the

1621
01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:11,080
Speaker 3: screen at that exact moment, you won't catch it.

1622
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:13,360
Speaker 2: But because yeah, I know the sequence you're talking about.

1623
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:17,519
Speaker 2: But it's like and again, it's like, these are images

1624
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:21,280
Speaker 2: that exist, but why are you choosing to show them?

1625
01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:23,759
Speaker 2: Like you can there there's a way to show Again,

1626
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,320
Speaker 2: it's like what I blinked and I missed? I confess

1627
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:31,400
Speaker 2: because otherwise it's like it seems like it's trying to

1628
01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:35,559
Speaker 2: say like this, you know, all of the emphasis on

1629
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 2: the violence that you see in popular art, which that

1630
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:44,080
Speaker 2: fucking sucks because I thought that that idea was kind

1631
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:47,479
Speaker 2: of effective, where like that's a familiar image, But like

1632
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:50,760
Speaker 2: choosing to cut to those anti Semitic depictions of this,

1633
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:56,800
Speaker 2: like centuries long antisemitic propagation is like what you know, again,

1634
01:33:56,960 --> 01:33:59,920
Speaker 2: what are we doing? What is the agenda of this movie?

1635
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 2: And no one can answer this, No one can answer

1636
01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:04,800
Speaker 2: this question, and so maybe we shall put it in

1637
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:09,679
Speaker 2: the trash But I and yet I'm saying it two nights,

1638
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:11,160
Speaker 2: what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do

1639
01:34:11,360 --> 01:34:14,479
Speaker 2: with Cynthia Arrivo? Can you fix this? And the answer

1640
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:16,240
Speaker 2: is I don't think so, I don't think it's fixable.

1641
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.

1642
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 2: Okay, everybody, quick update from the future. I saw Jesus

1643
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:28,840
Speaker 2: Christ Superstar with my mommy at the Hollywood Bowl last

1644
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:31,599
Speaker 2: week and ooh, I have thoughts. It was amazing. But

1645
01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:34,080
Speaker 2: also I have thoughts, as you've been hearing throughout this

1646
01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:36,840
Speaker 2: entire episode. The first thing I wanted to mention that

1647
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:39,760
Speaker 2: we talk about throughout the course of the episode, but

1648
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:41,479
Speaker 2: I just wanted to address with a little bit more

1649
01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:46,719
Speaker 2: specificity is talking to the specific moment that this movie

1650
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:51,639
Speaker 2: was produced in mostly the West Bank, but with the

1651
01:34:51,680 --> 01:34:55,960
Speaker 2: cooperation and approval of the Israeli government. Obviously we talked

1652
01:34:55,960 --> 01:34:58,800
Speaker 2: about that throughout the episode, but specifically I wanted to

1653
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 2: make no of the fact that, particularly in Gaza, that

1654
01:35:04,160 --> 01:35:08,160
Speaker 2: occupation was not just ongoing going back to the Nakba

1655
01:35:08,280 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty eight, but also as of nineteen sixty seven,

1656
01:35:11,520 --> 01:35:16,439
Speaker 2: there was an escalation of violence that led to Gaza

1657
01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:22,120
Speaker 2: being more aggressively occupied than ever before by Israel, and

1658
01:35:22,240 --> 01:35:26,960
Speaker 2: in ways that are directly traced to right now. So

1659
01:35:27,080 --> 01:35:30,679
Speaker 2: I just want to, you know, take every opportunity to

1660
01:35:30,720 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 2: not talk about Palestine as if this started two years ago,

1661
01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:37,639
Speaker 2: and that it is a particularly ugly time for this

1662
01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:41,639
Speaker 2: production to have taken place in conjunction with the Israeli government,

1663
01:35:41,640 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 2: because Israel was actively and loudly escalating the occupation, and

1664
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:53,200
Speaker 2: so any act of cooperation with that is horrific. As

1665
01:35:53,240 --> 01:35:57,880
Speaker 2: far as the Cynthia Christ Superstar production goes, yes, tell

1666
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:01,280
Speaker 2: me about it. So it was a no one to

1667
01:36:01,320 --> 01:36:07,439
Speaker 2: hear that Cynthia Arivo Superstar is incredible, like Ted Neely

1668
01:36:07,439 --> 01:36:10,519
Speaker 2: found dead in a ditch, like she she's I mean,

1669
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:13,840
Speaker 2: she's like one of the greatest performers living. I'm pretty

1670
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 2: sure she's so amazing. Her her rendition of Gusemini was

1671
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:22,800
Speaker 2: like I'd never heard the song before, Like not to

1672
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:26,880
Speaker 2: be over dramatic, but like it's whatever the bull fits

1673
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:31,320
Speaker 2: seventeen thousand people. Everyone was crying. There was a like

1674
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:36,400
Speaker 2: standing ovation. It was like low key religious experience, Like

1675
01:36:36,439 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 2: it was really really She's incredible. Weirdly, and I wasn't

1676
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 2: expecting this because I don't next to nothing about this man.

1677
01:36:44,040 --> 01:36:48,519
Speaker 2: Adam Lambert is Judas really good, really really like he

1678
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:52,040
Speaker 2: totally made the part his own. I just like I

1679
01:36:52,160 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 2: was really taken aback at how awesome he was. I

1680
01:36:57,520 --> 01:37:04,799
Speaker 2: really really liked him. Ral Esparsa, who is a iconic

1681
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:08,320
Speaker 2: Broadway actor played Pilot. And here's where I'm going to

1682
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:12,120
Speaker 2: be controversial and say I did not like his pilot

1683
01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:16,720
Speaker 2: really very much. There were clearly roll Aesparsa heads in

1684
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:20,040
Speaker 2: the house, Kitlyn, I think. I think the thing he's

1685
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:24,600
Speaker 2: best known for is that song being a Love You

1686
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:25,120
Speaker 2: know that one?

1687
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 3: Nope?

1688
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:29,519
Speaker 2: Okay, well then I sang for a reason. That is

1689
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 2: what he's best known for the mainstream Like, he's an

1690
01:37:31,920 --> 01:37:34,200
Speaker 2: incredible singer, a credible performer, but I just did not

1691
01:37:34,439 --> 01:37:39,280
Speaker 2: like his approach to Pilot. I'll be perfectly honest with you.

1692
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:41,519
Speaker 2: I and it actually, even though we talk about throughout

1693
01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:44,680
Speaker 2: the episode, how and this is obviously still true that

1694
01:37:44,920 --> 01:37:50,559
Speaker 2: Pilot is like overly empathized with in this rendition, it

1695
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:55,400
Speaker 2: did make me appreciate Barry Dennan's performance as Pilot much

1696
01:37:55,479 --> 01:37:58,360
Speaker 2: more because like, if that's going to be the approach

1697
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:01,719
Speaker 2: of the production, you've got to sell it, and Barry

1698
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:04,400
Speaker 2: Dennon does sell it, and I don't think her all

1699
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:08,560
Speaker 2: Asparsa did. Moving on to Mary Magdalen played by Philip A.

1700
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:12,680
Speaker 2: Su who most famously played Eliza in Hamilton, that I

1701
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 2: think is like her biggest credit she's great, Like we

1702
01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:19,800
Speaker 2: talked about throughout the episode, she's great as Mary, and

1703
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:22,679
Speaker 2: Mary has basically nothing to do, so there's an upper

1704
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:25,000
Speaker 2: limit to what she is able to do. But it

1705
01:38:25,120 --> 01:38:28,720
Speaker 2: was great and it was also really cool seeing they

1706
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:32,200
Speaker 2: were not leaning away from the lesbian undertones of Cynthia

1707
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:35,800
Speaker 2: Arrivo and Philip A. Su as Jesus and Mary. It

1708
01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:39,680
Speaker 2: was great, nice background of the production, I guess is

1709
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:46,120
Speaker 2: in the expected obnoxious, racist, misogynous ways. There was a

1710
01:38:46,240 --> 01:38:50,240
Speaker 2: wave of Fox News backlash to Cynthia Arrivo's casting as

1711
01:38:50,360 --> 01:38:55,760
Speaker 2: Jesus because YadA YadA, a black woman as Jesus. Never

1712
01:38:55,840 --> 01:38:58,920
Speaker 2: mind what we've talked about. What you know, Jesus was

1713
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:04,200
Speaker 2: not white, and Cynthia Rivo's fucking Cynthia Arrivo. You should

1714
01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:07,519
Speaker 2: be thanking her for being willing to do it. I

1715
01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:10,200
Speaker 2: think she's next playing Dracula on the West End, which

1716
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:12,960
Speaker 2: is like, she's just she's just doing whatever.

1717
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:14,760
Speaker 3: I love that. I know.

1718
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:17,360
Speaker 2: I kind of want my mom because my mom would

1719
01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:20,559
Speaker 2: die for her. And my mom was like, do you

1720
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:22,799
Speaker 2: think we could go? I was like, oh my god, okay,

1721
01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:26,280
Speaker 2: too much, too much. We can't go international for Cynthia Rivo.

1722
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 2: It's too much. But so that was a background to

1723
01:39:29,920 --> 01:39:31,920
Speaker 2: the production. It was very very well reviewed, it was

1724
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:35,160
Speaker 2: really good. But I do feel like, and maybe I

1725
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:38,080
Speaker 2: talked about this earlier in the episode, there are very

1726
01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:43,679
Speaker 2: glaring missed opportunities, particularly doing Jesus Christ Superstar right now.

1727
01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:50,320
Speaker 2: Not acknowledging the genocide is I think pretty inexcusable. And

1728
01:39:50,360 --> 01:39:53,559
Speaker 2: it's not just something that I that didn't happen, which

1729
01:39:53,640 --> 01:39:56,719
Speaker 2: unfortunately I wasn't surprised, but like, wasn't something I saw

1730
01:39:56,840 --> 01:40:00,400
Speaker 2: in the press surrounding it at all, which I think

1731
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:03,200
Speaker 2: kind of it speaks to the media, but it also

1732
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:07,760
Speaker 2: speaks to how americanized and divorced from its context that

1733
01:40:07,840 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 2: this musical has become over time, when if you're paying

1734
01:40:12,160 --> 01:40:15,200
Speaker 2: attention to what the musical is, it's about resistance in

1735
01:40:15,200 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 2: the face of an oppressive force, which if that's not Palestine,

1736
01:40:19,240 --> 01:40:22,559
Speaker 2: what is, you know, and taking place in the exact

1737
01:40:22,600 --> 01:40:26,320
Speaker 2: same location. It's inexcusable to put a massive production of

1738
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:29,360
Speaker 2: this together and not call attention to that, if not

1739
01:40:29,600 --> 01:40:33,960
Speaker 2: actively do something. But that is not what this production did,

1740
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:39,559
Speaker 2: and in fact, they cast a pretty prominent Zionist leaning

1741
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:44,280
Speaker 2: celebrity to play King Herod that being Josh Gadd. Oh, yeah,

1742
01:40:44,360 --> 01:40:48,280
Speaker 2: that was not something I was. I mean, I guess

1743
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 2: I just didn't know Josh Gadd's politics because I famously

1744
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:54,639
Speaker 2: hate Josh Gadd anyways, and it turns out I hate.

1745
01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:57,439
Speaker 3: Fully Born on the podcast before we and.

1746
01:40:57,520 --> 01:41:00,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so whoever emailed me saying that I that I

1747
01:41:00,160 --> 01:41:04,360
Speaker 2: was wrong to joh Gad, fuck you. But but yeah,

1748
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 2: I mean, not only to completely not acknowledge the genocide

1749
01:41:09,320 --> 01:41:12,200
Speaker 2: that is happening from the side of the Israeli government

1750
01:41:12,680 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 2: in this musical that takes place in the same exact location,

1751
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 2: they cast a prominent Zionist to be a prominent role

1752
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:23,799
Speaker 2: in it. So I won't even speak to his performance,

1753
01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:29,799
Speaker 2: because who fucking cares? That said, Cynthia Arrivo and Adam Lambert,

1754
01:41:30,439 --> 01:41:32,640
Speaker 2: they should take that show in the road, and they

1755
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:35,880
Speaker 2: should take it on the road with a production that

1756
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:40,439
Speaker 2: is not afraid to discuss the context that is happening

1757
01:41:40,479 --> 01:41:47,560
Speaker 2: in because it felt very, very glaring and like basically

1758
01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:52,960
Speaker 2: centrist stuff is just like, well, can't we just have fun,

1759
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:55,360
Speaker 2: you guys? And you're like not, when you're showing the

1760
01:41:55,400 --> 01:42:02,439
Speaker 2: story of Jesus' crucifixion, you fucking dumbass that said I

1761
01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:05,519
Speaker 2: laughed to cry. And that's my update.

1762
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:11,559
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm glad it was an enjoyable time. It was,

1763
01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:14,320
Speaker 3: and now we will travel back to the.

1764
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:18,320
Speaker 2: Past before I had to see Josh Gadden person bless

1765
01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:18,759
Speaker 2: her heart.

1766
01:42:19,320 --> 01:42:25,320
Speaker 3: So so back to the originally recorded episode. Do you

1767
01:42:25,320 --> 01:42:26,599
Speaker 3: have anything else you want to talk about?

1768
01:42:28,360 --> 01:42:32,480
Speaker 2: I don't think so, no, I yeah, this is definitely

1769
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:35,559
Speaker 2: like it's a movie that is deeply problematic that had

1770
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:39,240
Speaker 2: a very strong effect on me as a kid. I

1771
01:42:39,280 --> 01:42:42,000
Speaker 2: do like, I think that there are elements to this

1772
01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:46,280
Speaker 2: movie that I still really appreciate that are mostly connected

1773
01:42:46,320 --> 01:42:50,160
Speaker 2: to Carl Anderson, honestly, and I think just like further,

1774
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:54,599
Speaker 2: I don't know it is it like when you think

1775
01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:57,760
Speaker 2: of a dated project, this is just this is like

1776
01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:00,000
Speaker 2: the most nineteen seventy three they Oh yeah. The last

1777
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:02,400
Speaker 2: I was going to say is again, it's like there

1778
01:43:02,479 --> 01:43:08,800
Speaker 2: is a vague moment of being anti Vietnam War. Yeah,

1779
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:13,120
Speaker 2: and I like that. I like that. Again, It's it's unclear.

1780
01:43:13,720 --> 01:43:15,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure in nineteen seventy three is very

1781
01:43:15,400 --> 01:43:18,240
Speaker 2: clear where there is a moment where Judas is pursued

1782
01:43:18,280 --> 01:43:19,240
Speaker 2: by tanks.

1783
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:21,800
Speaker 3: Which would have been Israeli tanks.

1784
01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:23,680
Speaker 2: Which would have been is again, so it's like the

1785
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 2: it means nothing, but that was the intention of it,

1786
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:31,880
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, I mean, and that's again where

1787
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:35,519
Speaker 2: it's like the project just fails for that reason, where

1788
01:43:35,560 --> 01:43:38,640
Speaker 2: it's like, if you're using occupying tanks to make an

1789
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:42,200
Speaker 2: anti war statement, you're not doing anything. You're doing worse

1790
01:43:42,240 --> 01:43:45,920
Speaker 2: than nothing. So as far as the movie goes, it's

1791
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:48,799
Speaker 2: like impossible to get past. As far as the musical,

1792
01:43:48,840 --> 01:43:51,000
Speaker 2: I mean the musical as far as I know, you know,

1793
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:53,679
Speaker 2: it was just in the West End and then on Broadway,

1794
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:56,840
Speaker 2: and it was specifically the Norman Jewis in production that

1795
01:43:57,000 --> 01:44:00,479
Speaker 2: was making all these calls. But either way, it ages

1796
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:05,840
Speaker 2: not great. I guess my final thought is I love

1797
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:06,679
Speaker 2: Carl Anderson.

1798
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:10,519
Speaker 3: He does a great job RIP. The last thing I

1799
01:44:10,680 --> 01:44:13,880
Speaker 3: want to do is just a call to action. Something

1800
01:44:13,920 --> 01:44:17,760
Speaker 3: I've done recently is compile a list of links on

1801
01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 3: my link tree from families in Gaza who have reached

1802
01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:25,599
Speaker 3: out to me on Instagram asking for help. And so

1803
01:44:25,720 --> 01:44:30,720
Speaker 3: I've basically just started compiling all of those and donating and.

1804
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 2: We'll link that below as well, and we will make

1805
01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:37,040
Speaker 2: contributions from our Patreon to that as well. I hope

1806
01:44:37,160 --> 01:44:40,840
Speaker 2: that most of our listeners are already you know, understand

1807
01:44:40,840 --> 01:44:44,240
Speaker 2: what is going on in our following reliable sources about that.

1808
01:44:44,240 --> 01:44:46,360
Speaker 2: That would be another I think call to action is

1809
01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:52,080
Speaker 2: to divest from news sources that are not covering, that

1810
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:56,840
Speaker 2: are either not covering or downplaying or both sides yng

1811
01:44:57,439 --> 01:45:01,920
Speaker 2: what is objectively and has been for so long, an

1812
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:05,400
Speaker 2: active genocide of the Palestinian people. So not only giving

1813
01:45:05,439 --> 01:45:09,879
Speaker 2: directly to families who need direct aid, but actively pushing

1814
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:14,760
Speaker 2: back on these false, half assed narratives that we see

1815
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:16,759
Speaker 2: pushed at the highest level.

1816
01:45:17,280 --> 01:45:21,280
Speaker 3: Also follow the BDS movement, the boycott, divestment and sanctions.

1817
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:27,080
Speaker 3: It's a Palestinian lead movement that has a list of

1818
01:45:27,320 --> 01:45:33,679
Speaker 3: companies to boycott because that is something that does enact change.

1819
01:45:34,080 --> 01:45:36,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something direct you can do. Right now,

1820
01:45:37,520 --> 01:45:42,160
Speaker 2: we will link all of those below. And yeah, I

1821
01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:48,880
Speaker 2: think as far as ending this episode, I will be

1822
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:54,679
Speaker 2: making a five hundred dollars donation to PCRF for my birthday.

1823
01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:56,639
Speaker 2: If anyone would like to join me in doing that,

1824
01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:01,160
Speaker 2: please do. They are and have been doing really, I mean,

1825
01:46:01,200 --> 01:46:03,000
Speaker 2: as we've talked about many times on the show, they're

1826
01:46:03,040 --> 01:46:06,120
Speaker 2: doing really important work. Yeah, this movie does not pass

1827
01:46:06,160 --> 01:46:06,840
Speaker 2: the bachel test.

1828
01:46:07,120 --> 01:46:08,599
Speaker 3: Sure doesn't even come close.

1829
01:46:08,680 --> 01:46:12,080
Speaker 2: And I don't even really kind of want to skip

1830
01:46:12,080 --> 01:46:14,080
Speaker 2: the nipples. I don't think we deserve, we don't need

1831
01:46:14,120 --> 01:46:17,799
Speaker 2: to give nipples to movies that were made with Israel exactly.

1832
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:21,680
Speaker 2: But it doesn't pass the Backel test. And it's and

1833
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:22,960
Speaker 2: that's my birthday.

1834
01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:26,200
Speaker 3: And that's your birthday. Happy birthday, Jamie. Thank you, Thank

1835
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:31,000
Speaker 3: you for listening. Listeners. Don't forget about our upcoming tour

1836
01:46:31,320 --> 01:46:32,320
Speaker 3: in the Midwest.

1837
01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:35,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we will be there in just a couple of weeks.

1838
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:39,800
Speaker 2: We will be in Indianapolis, Chicago, Madison, and Minneapolis. We

1839
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:45,040
Speaker 2: hope to see you there talking about the Star Wars prequels.

1840
01:46:45,240 --> 01:46:48,320
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, sorry, and you're welcome.

1841
01:46:48,640 --> 01:46:52,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll see you there. Bye bye.

1842
01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:59,760
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1843
01:46:59,840 --> 01:47:03,719
Speaker 3: k Lyndarante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1844
01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:07,000
Speaker 3: by Moe laboord Our theme song was composed by Mike

1845
01:47:07,120 --> 01:47:11,479
Speaker 3: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch

1846
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:14,600
Speaker 3: is designed by Jamie loftis and a special thanks to

1847
01:47:14,640 --> 01:47:19,040
Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1848
01:47:19,120 --> 01:47:20,640
Speaker 3: Linktree Slash Bechdelcast