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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's your old pal Josh. And for this

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Speaker 1: week's select, I've chosen our episode from November of twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen on Cockney rhyming slang. This is one of those

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Speaker 1: silly episodes that's also packed with a lot of interesting information.

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Speaker 1: And I remember Chuck and I having fun making yet

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Speaker 1: so I hope you'll enjoy listening to it too.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 1: there's Charles w Chuck Bryant right there. There's Jerry Rowland

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Speaker 1: right there. So that makes this stuff you should know

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Speaker 1: right in. That's it for me. Can't top that.

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Speaker 3: I was trying to think a way to say welcome

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Speaker 3: to the podcast and cockney rhyming slang. Can you make

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Speaker 3: an intense My brain is are broken right now. I

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Speaker 3: can't even try.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good, good, well, welcome.

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Speaker 3: It's a good good time to record a show, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna do some cocknye in here, right. We want

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Speaker 1: to offend as many Londoners as we can.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, just just channel a little Dick Van Dyke.

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Speaker 3: Oh you know, Yeah, the American.

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Speaker 1: Doing a bad Cockney accent.

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Speaker 3: Well, I did recently rewatch The Limey.

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Speaker 1: Yes, for Casey's Benefits.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the great, great movie from Steven Soderberg.

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Speaker 1: Never seen it.

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Speaker 3: It's awesome, is it really? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean I know it's like a classic and everybody

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Speaker 1: loves it, but I mean it's really that good? Huh Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of people liked I don't know, The Hangover.

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Speaker 3: I like the Hangover?

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Speaker 1: Well, how would you? How would you like The Linemy

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Speaker 1: and the Hangover? Same level?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're the same movie almost all right, it's weird.

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Speaker 1: Well, then I've seen The Hangover, so I don't need

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Speaker 1: to see the Limy.

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Speaker 3: No, the Lemmy's great and Terrence Stamp is awesome, and

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Speaker 3: it and uses some Cockney rhymings in one great scene.

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Speaker 1: My big exposure to Cockney rhyming slang is Lockstock in

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Speaker 1: Two Smoking Barrels Snatch, Yeah, which I think are both

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Speaker 1: directed by Guy Ritchie. Right, wasn't Lockstock like his first

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Speaker 1: attempt in Snatch was the one that like got him

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Speaker 1: married to Madonna?

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Speaker 3: You a fan of Hits?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean as much as I like his movies,

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Speaker 1: I don't like him personally necessarily because he like hunts,

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Speaker 1: bore like a jackass.

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Speaker 3: And stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like drunk with his friends in the most like

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Speaker 1: disrespectful way of murdering a pig.

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Speaker 3: I've meant his movies, but yeah, I do like his

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Speaker 3: movie sounds like he's a creep too.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to go on record saying that, but

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, those movies are okay. And then I guess, uh,

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Speaker 3: what's his name? Don Cheatle a little bit in Ocean's eleven. Sure,

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Speaker 3: he did a little bit of.

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Speaker 1: That, right, And I mean like it's code to Americans,

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Speaker 1: it's oh, there's like a criminal, a British criminal, right,

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Speaker 1: that's all that means these days?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. In movies, it's definitely like all

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Speaker 3: of those are criminal, criminal people in the movie.

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Speaker 1: But they're like, you know, kind of slick, cool criminals

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Speaker 1: that like boil leather coats and stuff like that, not

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Speaker 1: dumb criminals that were like football jerseys or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: They're like, you know, smooth criminals. That's I think what

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Speaker 1: I was looking for. Yeah, but this idea of associating

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Speaker 1: it with Cockney is not necessarily associating it with criminals.

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Speaker 1: It's more associated with like lower class, working class, less educated, definitely,

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Speaker 1: not the aristocracy over in Britain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or the upper class.

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Speaker 1: Sure, And that by speaking with a Cockney accent, or

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Speaker 1: more to the point, using Cockney rhyming slang, you could

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Speaker 1: really differentiate yourself to it as a point of pride,

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Speaker 1: like you were speaking like your group. You're in group,

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Speaker 1: which was at the time Cockney. But the big surprise

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Speaker 1: to all this is it's really possible and even probable

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't the Cockney that came up with this

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Speaker 1: rhyming slang, that it was somebody else altogether.

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Speaker 3: Maybe who knows? Should we say what it is?

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Speaker 1: No, not for the rest of the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Cockney rhyming slang. It wasn't even very clearly defined in

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Speaker 3: this piece. Okay, did do you think it was? It's

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Speaker 3: in there, Okay. You got to just kind of separate

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Speaker 3: the wheat from the chaff. So it is a two

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Speaker 3: word phrase. It is a slang phrase consisting of two

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Speaker 3: words or the last word of that phrase rhymes with

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Speaker 3: the original word. And it can be and I think

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Speaker 3: the best way to do this is just to throw

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Speaker 3: out a few no, no, keep describing well, the two

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Speaker 3: word phrase. It can be. It can be a lot

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Speaker 3: of things. It can be a person's name, it can

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Speaker 3: be just something random. It can be a place, could

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Speaker 3: be a place, It could be a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: It can be anything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, I guess it can be m But shall

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Speaker 3: we illustrate it through.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a second part to it too, Ok, the

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Speaker 1: second part, and this is very important. The two word

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Speaker 1: phrase that you're using to that where the second word

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Speaker 1: rhymes with the word you're actually saying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the original word, the original word thank.

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Speaker 1: You, usually has nothing to do with it. There's no metaphor,

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Speaker 1: there's no connection, there's no nothing, there's no there's no

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Speaker 1: context to it. It's supposed to just be random or

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Speaker 1: in most cases it is just random words, right, one

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Speaker 1: of which rhymes with the word you're replacing.

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Speaker 3: And to further complicate things, Sure, in a lot of cases,

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Speaker 3: and no one knows why. Sometimes this happens, and sometimes

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Speaker 3: it doesn't a lot of times that one of the

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Speaker 3: words of the two word phrase is dropped yep, and

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Speaker 3: then you're just left with the one word which doesn't

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Speaker 3: even rhyme with the original word anymore. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's I mean, that's probably the best description of cockney

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Speaker 1: rhyming slaying anyone's ever given.

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Speaker 3: So I think we should illustrate it with a couple

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Speaker 3: of examples. I pulled some from from some thing called

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Speaker 3: the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Here here's one, the the tip and tet. That's how

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Speaker 1: long it took me to come up.

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Speaker 3: With that tip and tet for the Internet.

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Speaker 1: But in ten years it'll just be called the tip.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to log onto the tip Governor.

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Speaker 3: So let's say your word was, and this was in

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Speaker 3: Ocean's eleven, specifically, trouble is the word that you're trying

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Speaker 3: to say. Cockney rhyming slang for trouble is Barney rubble awesome,

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Speaker 3: And so you would say you're making a bit of

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Speaker 3: the Bonnie rubbled again.

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Speaker 1: Right when somebody that was kind of who was.

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Speaker 3: That making a bit of Bonnie rubble? Not the see

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Speaker 3: I already did it wrong.

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Speaker 1: No, but I think that like a real person to

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Speaker 1: an American for sure. Oh yeah, I can't, I can't.

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Speaker 1: I'll shout it out later.

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Speaker 3: Man, I finally did a good one. We just I

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Speaker 3: just don't know who.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't a Cockney person, is okay.

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Speaker 3: Another example for Queen, they would use the term baked bean.

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Speaker 3: Look it is on TV, it's the baked bean, right,

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Speaker 3: and that's the queen. Or in the case of one

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Speaker 3: that's been dropped, what does ed use here? Bees and honey?

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Speaker 1: That one is not dropped for money?

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Speaker 3: Oh okay? But which one was apples and pears for stairs? Right?

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Speaker 1: So you would say I'm going to go up the

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Speaker 1: apple and stairs apples and pears? Oh man, let me

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Speaker 1: retake this. Everybody. You would say, I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: up the apples and pears to go get my wallet

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Speaker 1: to pay for this pizza, or something to that effect.

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Speaker 1: But then over time people drop the pears, and so

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Speaker 1: now the word for stairs in Cockney rhyming slang is

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Speaker 1: just apples, which, if you're just standing there on the

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Speaker 1: outside like a normal American bloke, sure, by the way,

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Speaker 1: it means person. You have no idea why this person

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Speaker 1: just called stairs apples. You got what they were saying,

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Speaker 1: because the context is there, you're going up the apples

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Speaker 1: to get your wallet to pay for the pizza. But

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Speaker 1: why would you just say that? Did you did you

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Speaker 1: hit your head? Is there something wrong with you? What's

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Speaker 1: the problem? Why would you just call that apples? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's why it's so confounding. But the great thing about

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Speaker 1: cockney rhyming slang, and in particular the great thing about

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Speaker 1: researching cockney rhyming slang, is you learn how you get

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Speaker 1: from apples to stairs, and then it makes sense. Sometimes yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's true, it's not always.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes there's uh, it's it's not documented, which Ed

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Speaker 3: points out as one of the problems. Sometimes you can

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Speaker 3: draw the line the through line, but because it's not documented,

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Speaker 3: and sometimes these things take years and years to morph

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Speaker 3: into its final version. Right unless you unless you're you know,

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Speaker 3: on the uh, what would you call streets on the door?

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Speaker 3: Now on the streets, then you wouldn't know. But I

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Speaker 3: don't know what streets is. You can it just makes

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Speaker 3: stuff up, Like there's real words.

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Speaker 1: On the drums and beats, so got the drums.

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Speaker 3: Right, but they probably have a word for streets. Like

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Speaker 3: that's the whole point. You can't just make anything up

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Speaker 3: but the but you could if it hasn't been taken yet.

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Speaker 1: Sure. But also that's the other thing about cockney rhyming

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Speaker 1: slang is it evolves, right, so old celebrities that no

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Speaker 1: one even knows about anymore fall away to new celebrities

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Speaker 1: whose name also rhyme with you know whatever word you're saying.

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Speaker 3: Right, I thought you meant old celebrities who maybe used

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Speaker 3: to talk this way like Michael Kaine.

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Speaker 1: No, he's never said any rhyming slang in his life.

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Speaker 3: Of course, you got to see the movie Alfie.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's who it was. It might have been Michael Kane.

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Speaker 3: I don't take that Michael Kaine. I think it was.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Yeah, thank you, I'm glad

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Speaker 1: you did it.

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Speaker 3: Noel always says a good joke is to say Michael

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Speaker 3: Kain in the correct accent, say the words my cocaine.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like Michael Kaine saying it.

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Speaker 3: Then it sounds like the correct accent for Michael Kaine.

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Speaker 1: Right, my cocaine.

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Speaker 3: Well, you just blew that one out.

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Speaker 1: You gotta set me up in the future. Now you

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Speaker 1: haven't recorded seeing my cocaine.

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Speaker 3: Well there's I've got it two ways now.

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Speaker 1: Man cocaine.

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Speaker 3: Here's the thing, my cocaine. That's my cocaine. That's pretty good,

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Speaker 3: Michael Caine. It is good. You're right, Noel, you just

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Speaker 3: got to say it the right way and not like

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Speaker 3: a robot Josh. So here's one of the things that

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Speaker 3: sort of confounding if you want to look up a

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Speaker 3: like a glossary and say, well, here's what I'm gonna do.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna learn Cockney rhyming slang. So for my trip

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Speaker 3: to England, I'm really you know, I'm really in with everybody.

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Speaker 1: Really.

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Speaker 3: First of all, bad idea. Second of all, it's it

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Speaker 3: can be very localized and the accents are all different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so even people in London who who all use well,

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Speaker 1: people in London don't really do. But the people who

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Speaker 1: use Cockney rhyming slang in London might not even agree

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Speaker 1: on what word means.

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Speaker 3: What. I'm just picturing all the people walking around England

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Speaker 3: laughing their arses off.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I can't wait to get to that one.

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Speaker 3: As we stumble through this. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Ed had a really good example of why there's no

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Speaker 1: codification of the Cockney rhyming slang. He said that when

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Speaker 1: people are creating a language, especially informal ones like slang,

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Speaker 1: they don't write it all down. Quote, dear Diary referred

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Speaker 1: to my house as a cat and mouse today because

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Speaker 1: it rhymed. We all had a good laugh.

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Speaker 3: Might try just calling it cat tomorrow and see how

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Speaker 3: it goes. It is it sounds funny, but that's that's

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Speaker 3: how it works. Can you stumbling across a diary that

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Speaker 3: said that? And here's the other thing too, is there

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Speaker 3: are cases where there is a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: reflection of the original word. And the example that it

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Speaker 3: gives here is twist. Yeah, like to call a woman

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Speaker 3: a twist, which I don't know if that's a derogatory

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Speaker 3: or not, or just some weird slang that no one

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Speaker 3: uses anymore.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so, although I don't know. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: these are also the people who use the C word

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Speaker 1: like it's nothing.

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Speaker 4: Well, I can say fanny, oh man, I can't wait

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Speaker 4: to go back there, which we're gonna do soonest right,

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Speaker 4: I'd love to do in twenty twenty maybe yeah, all right.

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Speaker 3: Uh so twist came from twist and twirl, which meant girl,

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Speaker 3: which is uh they were talking about like dancing with

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Speaker 3: a girl twisting and twirling in a nightclub.

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Speaker 1: Let's say, so there is some connection in that one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so girl ended up becoming twist, so that sort

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Speaker 3: of makes sense.

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Speaker 1: There's another one called on your Todd after a guy

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Speaker 1: named Todd Sloane, and it means on your own right

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Speaker 1: and The thing is is like On your Todd, it

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Speaker 1: makes sense Sloan rhymes with own. It doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: have any connection, but that one actually does. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: Todd Sloan was a famous jockey in the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 3: Like horse jockey, yes, okay, what other kind is there?

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Speaker 3: Disc jockeys?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sure. So his book, his memoir, was called

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Speaker 1: Todd Sloane by himself, which is weird to refer to

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Speaker 1: yourself in third person for your memoir, But there was

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Speaker 1: a line in it that apparently east Enders in London

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Speaker 1: like really picked up, I was left alone by those

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Speaker 1: I never ceased to grieve for, And so like the

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Speaker 1: idea of being alone or on your own became synonymous

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Speaker 1: with Todd Sloane. His name just happened to rhyme with that.

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Speaker 1: So it's one of those rare ones where there is

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Speaker 1: a connection to it, and also rare chuck in that

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Speaker 1: this is a nineteenth century horse jockey and still today

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Speaker 1: On Your Todd is recognized as on your.

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Speaker 3: Own, whereas a lot of people probably have no idea.

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Speaker 1: Exactly from who he is. And when that happens that

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Speaker 1: frequently that person gets moved out for potentially another celebrity

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Speaker 1: or another word that's a little more understandable. Recognized another

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Speaker 1: new jockey to people today, Right, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: Which can you name one?

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Speaker 1: Nope?

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Speaker 3: Nope, all right, maybe we should take a break and

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Speaker 3: we'll talk about some of the other some other examples

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Speaker 3: after this message.

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Speaker 5: Salvation, no sevision, no.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we're back. Jerry just opened the loudest sandwich in

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Speaker 3: the history of the world. Really, she's like, hold on

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Speaker 3: a minute, and it's sounded like it was in a

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Speaker 3: space blanket.

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Speaker 1: It was like Ernest opens a sandwich over here.

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Speaker 3: That was a good one. Not as good as part two.

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Speaker 1: No, I saw that first one in the theater.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So here's some other examples that have Some of

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Speaker 3: them have sort of stayed over in England and some

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Speaker 3: of have found their way, Like apparently the term put

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Speaker 3: up your dukes. Oh, I didn't know the cockney rhyming slang,

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Speaker 3: so and I didn't write down where dukes came from.

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Speaker 3: But that's where it was originally a Cockney rhyming slang term. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: because so you would think it had to do with

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Speaker 3: fists or something. Duke's for fists. Why didn't I write

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Speaker 3: that down?

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Speaker 1: Okay, But so That's another really important point to say

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Speaker 1: about Cockney rhyming slang. It's frequently rhyming slang based on slang,

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Speaker 1: so the word it's replacing is the slang word to

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Speaker 1: begin with. So who knows what the dukes actually rhymed

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Speaker 1: with at any point?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point. So first of all, I've

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Speaker 3: never heard this blowing a raspberry. What have you heard

301
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Speaker 3: of that? Yeah? That's tooting out of your that what.

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Speaker 1: I just did is as much blowing a raspberry as

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Speaker 1: actually farting.

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Speaker 3: Oh really? Yeah? Okay, well I've heard of giving someone

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Speaker 3: a raspberry, like, okay, that's the same thing. Yeah, okay,

306
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Speaker 3: Well apparently that's derived from raspberry tart slang for fart.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that amazing?

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Speaker 3: It's pretty great?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that one is one of the rare ones

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Speaker 1: I love talking about exceptions. Do you know that?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,720
Speaker 1: Sure, that's one of the rare ones that made its

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Speaker 1: way to America because of right, everyone but you knows

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Speaker 1: what blowing a raspberry is?

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Speaker 3: I guess I've never heard of the term blowing, but

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Speaker 3: giving someone a raspberry same thing.

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Speaker 1: I found two more. One is controversial. It's not set

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Speaker 1: in stone, but it's as good an explanation as any

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Speaker 1: get down to brass tacks.

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Speaker 3: I saw that one too.

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Speaker 1: That's a stand in for facts. Let's get down to

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Speaker 1: the bear facts.

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Speaker 3: Huh.

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Speaker 1: Possibly it's not right done. One that is one hundred percent,

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Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, is bread.

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Speaker 3: I saw that too. For money. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In America, bread and honey became just bread, right, and

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Speaker 1: it caught on here and caught on again just now.

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Speaker 3: Well, bees and honey though, was also for money, right.

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Speaker 3: Is that just one of the local depends on where

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Speaker 3: you are things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, but in America, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: we use bread. Everybody calls it bread.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I didn't know that that'd come back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody wrote in to say it had come back.

336
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Speaker 1: Let's get this bread right.

337
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,360
Speaker 3: I guess. So that's over familiar.

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Speaker 1: You need to spend more time on Reddit.

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Speaker 3: Here's another one. Dog and bone stands in for phone,

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Speaker 3: call me on the dog and bone. Sure, And then

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Speaker 3: Ed says there may be some kind of correlation between

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Speaker 3: one silver words that lead off that phrase staying in

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Speaker 3: the phrase, But I don't There are so many exceptions.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if there is a rule exactly.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really, this is worth saying. We

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Speaker 1: looked all over the place I know ed did too,

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Speaker 1: for straight up linguistic dissertations and papers on cockney rhyming slange. Right,

348
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Speaker 1: it's not there. No, it's just treated as fun and hilarious,

349
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Speaker 1: even though it is its own made up language that's

350
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Speaker 1: ever evolving. Still live is around. We'll talk about the

351
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 1: history in a minute for one hundred and fifty plus years.

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Speaker 1: But apparently no linguist has ever thought enough of it

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Speaker 1: to sit down and write a genuine paper about it.

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Speaker 1: So we couldn't find that. But the one thing that

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Speaker 1: really occurred to me was in looking into it. I

356
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Speaker 1: don't know if it could ever be explained. I think

357
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Speaker 1: it's the result of so many individual decisions and then

358
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Speaker 1: collective agreements to take up and go along with those decisions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and those.

360
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Speaker 1: Agreements can be totally undermined by a new individual decision

361
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Speaker 1: that catches on how could you possibly map and even

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Speaker 1: understand all or explain all of that different stuff. But

363
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Speaker 1: even though we can't explain it, once you start to

364
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Speaker 1: learn how it works, it's understandable. So you can't explain,

365
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 1: but you can't understand it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like I always wonder with any kind

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Speaker 3: of slang or like who makes the stuff up, who

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Speaker 3: sets the rules. It's probably just the kind of thing

369
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Speaker 3: that just starts on a playground and spreads from there

370
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Speaker 3: and gets codified unofficially. Yep. Then everyone's using it, sure,

371
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 3: but I wonder if they're I don't know. You can't

372
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Speaker 3: trace this stuff, which is sort of frustrating as researchers,

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Speaker 3: because I think we like to pinpoint things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it I mean people have tried to trace

375
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Speaker 1: it and they've come awfully close.

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Speaker 3: Well, we'll get to that in a minute. Okay, I

377
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,040
Speaker 3: want to go over some more of these. All right,

378
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Speaker 3: I want to get up on my plates and get out.

379
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Speaker 1: Of here your meat, your plates of meat.

380
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 3: Plates of meat, which is feet or between podcasts, you

381
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 3: probably have to go take a rattle. Yep, rattle and hiss,

382
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,639
Speaker 3: rattle and hiss like a snake. You got it, And

383
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,879
Speaker 3: that's means peep, right exactly. And then I guess we

384
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 3: should talk about ars. Yeah, sure, that's the one you

385
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 3: were pretty excited about.

386
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 1: Yes, because it goes even so much farther than urs

387
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 1: even Yeah, it's pretty convoluted. Okay, you want to take

388
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 1: it no, go ahead, Okay, so ours the very famous

389
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 1: named for ass in the UK. Everybody knows that. Sure,

390
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,119
Speaker 1: it's actually it comes from Aristotle, which you're like, well,

391
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,680
Speaker 1: what does that have to do with ass? Well, let

392
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: me tell you. Aristotle is Cockney rhyming slang for bottle. Again,

393
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 1: the question is what does that have to do with ass? Well.

394
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,159
Speaker 1: Originally the Cockney rhyming slang word for ass was bottle

395
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,399
Speaker 1: and glass, right, became shortened to bottle. Somebody came along

396
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: and rhymed Aristotle with it. That got shortened to aris

397
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 1: and then to Arsey goes even further than that. Oh yeah,

398
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:43,880
Speaker 1: I saw one plaster for ars plaster of Paris, Aris, Aristotle, bottle,

399
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 1: bottle and glass ass. That's how deep that Cockney rhyming

400
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 1: slang has covered up the collective ass of the UK.

401
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again it's like, why you can't You can't

402
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 3: put that in a book and explain it in any

403
00:20:58,520 --> 00:20:59,919
Speaker 3: kind of way that makes sense. You got to do

404
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,199
Speaker 3: it on a podcast or a paper. You just have

405
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 3: to accept it. It's like, that's how it happened on

406
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 3: the street. I think that's a really good way on

407
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 3: the streets to the east end. Right, right in your cocaine. No,

408
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 3: not your cocaine. They do have. For all that we're

409
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 3: saying about how don't look at glossaries and stuff like that,

410
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 3: they do have dictionaries that you can buy. If you're

411
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 3: a total square, I would guess it's probably not a

412
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 3: cool thing to do. That's like saying, you know, I

413
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 3: want to become a rapper, so let me get a

414
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 3: rhyming dictionary. Although I did have a rhyming dictionary at

415
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Speaker 3: one point.

416
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 1: Well, rhyming it's not, you know, just limited to kochne.

417
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 1: We know rhyme, Yeah, which is one assertion ed makes

418
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 1: for why it's popular or so long lasting.

419
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 3: Well, should we talk about some of the theories on

420
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 3: where it originated, because I looked in a bunch of

421
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 3: places and I don't think I mean, I think calling

422
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 3: it theory is a little I think they kind of

423
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 3: know where it came from. They just don't know exactly

424
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 3: why the campaign point it to like on this day,

425
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 3: on this in this place.

426
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 1: Right.

427
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 3: But it's not a complete mystery though.

428
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: No, they've got it basically localized to about a one

429
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: and a half mile area of London and basically down

430
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 1: to the year. It's just exactly where and exactly who's

431
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: in exactly why are the real outstanding questions, which is

432
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 1: actually a lot of questions.

433
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the one of the whys was that

434
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 3: in this one I think doesn't have as much credence now.

435
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: But no, but it's like the most common one.

436
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 3: Right is that you will hear that it was coded

437
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 3: language created by criminals to keep the cops confused as

438
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 3: to what was going on, right, which makes sense in

439
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 3: one way because it certainly could cause confusion, But it

440
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 3: also and I think ed makes a pretty good point

441
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 3: that like, were they, like, were cops just hanging around

442
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 3: overhearing things like why did they feel like they needed

443
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 3: to create this whole language? And cops, if they were

444
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 3: street cops would have figured this stuff out as well,

445
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 3: you know, because it wouldn't have been that big of

446
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: a secret. Yeah.

447
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 1: There's this guy named Dick Sullivan who wrote an essay

448
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: on the Victorian Web which is actually kind of cool, huh,

449
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: And he said the street cops would have come from

450
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: the same areas and families and neighborhoods that the criminals

451
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: would have, so they would have been raised on this

452
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: rhyming slang anyway. Sure, So it doesn't really hold up

453
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: to scrutiny when you look at it like that. It

454
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: was a intentionally created coded language meant to confuse the cops.

455
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 3: Right then. That's not to say it nevertheless wasn't associated

456
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: with some kind of criminal underworld East London types.

457
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it almost certainly was taken up by the Cockneys,

458
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 1: but it wasn't necessarily cock news or criminals who came

459
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 1: up with this rhyming slang. To begin with.

460
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 3: There's this guy named John Camden Hotton, and he wrote

461
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 3: one of the better titled, or at least most directly

462
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 3: titled books I've ever heard of, Colon No, there's not.

463
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: There are a couple commas though a dictionary of modern slang,

464
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: Can't and vulgar words used at the present day in

465
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: the streets of London, And he has a chapter on

466
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: rhyming slang, and he basically says that it was two

467
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: groups shaunters and patterers, basically traveling salesmen who would stand

468
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,719
Speaker 1: on street corners and hawk their wares and you know,

469
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: maybe pick your pocket while you were trying to buy

470
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: something from them, and that they came up with Cockney

471
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: rhyming slang.

472
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I saw that enough to think that that's

473
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 3: probably true.

474
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. The Schaunters in particular spoken like singing rhyming language,

475
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: so it would.

476
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: Have been a pretty quick evolution. Yeah, I think this

477
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 3: one makes a lot of sense. Street criers, I mean,

478
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 3: England and London especially has a long tradition of street

479
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 3: corner barkers and things like this, right. I remember seeing

480
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: one myself when I traveled there in the nineties and

481
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: I was like, they're still doing this stuff.

482
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

483
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 3: It was like a box in the park where you

484
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 3: can go stand on it, soapbox maybe, I mean that's

485
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 3: where that came from, right, probably, and just you know,

486
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: shout your piece. Sure, And then I saw guy doing it

487
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 3: and I thought, what year is this? This is wonderful, right,

488
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 3: it's fantastic.

489
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: But in particular the Chaunters, they sang and then sold

490
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 1: penny ballads, sheet music of penny ballads that they would

491
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: write real quick. After somebody famous died or there was

492
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: a train wreck or something, they'd write a ballad about

493
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: it and then be out in the corners selling these things.

494
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: But because they were singing in rhymes and sing song,

495
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: it's a really good bet that these guys were the

496
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: ones who originated rhyming slang, but not necessarily for any

497
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: kind of intentionally coded language, because that same guy, Dick Sullivan, says,

498
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: there's no reason for patterers who sold their you know,

499
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: little gigaws or trinkets or whatever. I love that word,

500
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 1: or shaunters who were selling these penny ballads. They worked alone.

501
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: There was no need for them to come up with

502
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: a coded.

503
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: Lange would communicate with one another.

504
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, in front of a customer who they were ripping off,

505
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: because they didn't need to communicate with one another in

506
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:06,959
Speaker 1: front of customers.

507
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: Well, I saw that maybe they, you know, could communicate

508
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 3: with each other when customers were around or something.

509
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, right, But the other part of that

510
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: is that it supposedly flies in the face of how

511
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: slang develops, that it's unintentional, right, Like you don't say,

512
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: let's come up with a coded language and here's how

513
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: it works.

514
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, even like American teenagers when they have slang that

515
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 3: their parents don't understand, Like you remember how that stuff went.

516
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: It was something you just heard. You never sat around. Sure,

517
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 3: I'm hip to that and said, you know, like, hey,

518
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 3: let's use this other word that our parents won't know

519
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 3: what it means.

520
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: Right, you know, we'll call it pepsi when we're on

521
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: the phone.

522
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: Okay. There was also the Victorian backslang, which that was

523
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 3: not cocky rhyming slang. That was just pronouncing words backwards,

524
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 3: sort of simple yob for boy. Yes.

525
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: But something interesting about that is that it's based on

526
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: the spelling, not the pronunciation, right, which suggests a strong

527
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: degree of literacy, which you would probably not have found

528
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: among at least the powderers, right, probably among the chanters

529
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: because they were writing songs and ballads, so it's possible

530
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: they came up with that too, But they think maybe

531
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: it was Butcher's and Butcher's assistants who came up with backslang.

532
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, and actually two confused customers or to

533
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: be able to talk about what price they should charge

534
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: a customer in front of the customer.

535
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 3: Right.

536
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: So there is like you take all these different pieces

537
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: and you get the current idea and story for cockney

538
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: rhyming slang, but it's actually a bunch of different stuff. Yeah,

539
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 1: that wasn't really all connected until later on.

540
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, what it probably also was not was Irish stock workers.

541
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 3: There was one theory being bandied about that Irish stock

542
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: workers would come over and they would speak in this

543
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 3: made up rhyming slang, so you know, they could just

544
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 3: talk among their Irish peers and the people of London

545
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 3: wouldn't understand them. Not much of this makes any sense

546
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 3: at all, No, because they don't. I think. Now you

547
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 3: see it some in Ireland, but for all those years

548
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 3: that it was prevalent in London, it was not in Ireland.

549
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 3: Right unless they literally just made it up when they

550
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: came over from Ireland.

551
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: Right, Plus, why would they not just speak Irish in

552
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: front of the English who might not speak it?

553
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 3: Yeah?

554
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: Or what would that be Gaelic?

555
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 3: Sure? I think So we're getting so much of this wrong.

556
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: Do you want to take a break in fact check

557
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: everything and maybe just rewind and start over.

558
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's let's get our Wait, what was facts?

559
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: Our brass tacks? That's right, So we got to go

560
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: get our brass straight.

561
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 3: That's right.

562
00:28:49,160 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 5: Salvation no selevsion, No, Okay, we're back.

563
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: It's been about thirty minutes since we left you guys.

564
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 3: We fact checked everything and so far, so good. Yeah,

565
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: this is a perfect podcast. So you said at the beginning,

566
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: you teased out that it might not even have been

567
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: Cockney to begin with. Everything I saw kind of placed

568
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 3: it in that east. I think they call it Cheapside,

569
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 3: really area wow, where the cockneys were, but Cockney was also,

570
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 3: I mean it's also not necessarily specifically one place, right.

571
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: No, But if you're talking about Cockney people, supposedly the

572
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: definition of a Cockney person is someone who was born

573
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: within hearing distance of the bells of Saint Mary Lebaux

574
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: in Cheapside, which was in London. With this guy, John

575
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: Camden Houghton, who was writing in eighteen sixty and placed

576
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,719
Speaker 1: the place the origin of rhyming slang well the fifteen

577
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: years before. So this guy was like on top of

578
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 1: it as it was happening. Yeah, he placed it at

579
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: a place called Seven Dials, which is like a big

580
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: market place and I think still is, which is a

581
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: mile and a half away from Cheapside, which at the

582
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: time was in Westminster at the time a different town, right,

583
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: So you had City of London and then Westminster, which

584
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: is where seven Dials was. So if if you believe Hoton,

585
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: then it wasn't the Cockney at all who came up

586
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: with that. It was just powders and Shaan tours. That's

587
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: a different word than I said, No, Shawn Tours.

588
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 3: Well, Cockney has. What that is though, is just sort

589
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: of the working class. I think used to be viewed

590
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: as uneducated, sort of lower class. That may be a

591
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 3: bit harsh, but if anything, it was not the upper

592
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: crust of British society. You know, the pub the hard

593
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: drinking pubgoers, rub a dub dub goers. Is that pubs?

594
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is another extent because you go from one

595
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: one syllable pub to rub a dub dub and it

596
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: actually has three rhymes in there. Oh interesting, But that

597
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: is Cockney rhyming slang for pub.

598
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: Well, but the Cockneys were also known for a bit

599
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: more progressive politics, and I think nowadays there can be

600
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: a bit more of a of a pride of like

601
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: a working class pride associated with it.

602
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: I think there was back then too, was there? But

603
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 1: I think that's one reason also why the Cockney accent

604
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: and Cockney rhyming slang in particular was just treated shabbily

605
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: and looked down on, you know, by the rest of England,

606
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: right because it was supposedly, you know, associated with the

607
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: lower classes.

608
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it also found its way to Australia, isn't that right?

609
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: And then somehow on the West Coast of America where

610
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 3: the Australian version came in.

611
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the prisons of the West Coast in the US,

612
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: it was called Australian rhyming slang. So I guess some

613
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: cool guy from Australia showed up and was speaking in Gibberish.

614
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: That just made everyone think I want to do this too, right.

615
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 3: It's kind of fun to go on YouTube though and

616
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 3: see some of these, you know, because it's such a

617
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: big thing in England. It's been all over the BBC.

618
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 3: I watched one episode of the Two Ronnies where this

619
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 3: priest did a sermon and Cockney rhyming slang. It's very

620
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: funny and one of those sort of you know, eighties

621
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: I guess it was eighties, early eighties. BBC comedies are

622
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 3: always fun, you know. The production value is not all there.

623
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: The laugh track is it had to have been a

624
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 3: laugh track. I don't think it was a studio audience,

625
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 3: although it may have been.

626
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: I don't know.

627
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 3: It was hard to tell. That's during the transition. But

628
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 3: there were other shows not on Your Nelly and The

629
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: Sweeney and the titles of both of those shows come

630
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: from actual Cockney rhyming slang as well.

631
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Sweeney is particularly dense. It's short for Sweeney Todd,

632
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: which was rhyming slang for flying Squad, which is a

633
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: particular branch of the Metapolitan Police, kind of like Major Case.

634
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: So the Sweeney was like the Major Case division of

635
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: Metropolitan Police.

636
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 3: So Nelly comes from the word Nelly Duff, the name

637
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: Nelly Duff, which is apparently just a nonsense name, and

638
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 3: that rhymes with puff, which means life. So not on

639
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 3: your Nelly means not on your life. Yeah, clearly it's

640
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 3: so dense. And then of course things like you mentioned

641
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 3: the guy Ritchie really brought it into the American consciousness

642
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: in the nineties when he made those two movies, and.

643
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: He brought it into my consciousness. I'll tell you that.

644
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure.

645
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: So there's a really good question, Chuck, that I think

646
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: we need to ask. How is it that in twenty

647
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: nineteen you and I are analyzing a hyper local slang

648
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: that came out of the eighteen forties in some very

649
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: specific part of London, Like, how is Cogney rhyming slang

650
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: still around after all this year? All these years, when

651
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: so much other slang has come and gone over the

652
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: years that we have no idea ever even existed. What's

653
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: the same power of Cockney rhyming slang?

654
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 3: Do you expect me to have an answer? Yeap, I

655
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 3: don't have one about why it's stuck around other than people.

656
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 3: You know, if people don't still use it, then it

657
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 3: would have fallen by the wayside. So clearly it's popular. Yeah,

658
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 3: it seems to have gotten and maybe this is just

659
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 3: my recognition of it, but it seems to have gotten

660
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: more popular in the last twenty years.

661
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: What I was reading is that, especially in the UK,

662
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: it's popularity is based on kitchiness. Yeah, you know, kind

663
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: of like hipster irony. Like the Cockney rhyming word for

664
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: wife is trouble and strife. So I imagine that probably doesn't

665
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: go over very well if you don't call your wife

666
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: that with a smile like you're joking, right, kind of thing.

667
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: So I think that's the that's the current use of it.

668
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: But I mean it's it was used and it's still

669
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: in use, and there's still new words like passen becks

670
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: is is the word for sex?

671
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 3: Oh? Really, that's pretty new. Apparently Britney spears can be

672
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 3: used for beers, which is great. And I saw one

673
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 3: Nelson mandela. If you're getting a Stella artois, yeah, this

674
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: is a Nelson Mandela for stella.

675
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: So the fact that it's still evolving, yeah, still being

676
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: contributed to new like these existing words are being replaced

677
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: with new ones. And the fact that it's one hundred

678
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: and fifty years old. I mean, there's got to be

679
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: some thing to it that makes it more more. I

680
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 1: think it's that it's just so hard to understand until

681
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: someone explains it to you.

682
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 3: I think it's fun. I think it's a few fold.

683
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 3: It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's there is a

684
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 3: code to it, and part of the fun is it

685
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 3: I think his friends maybe trying to make something up

686
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 3: and having it catch on. Sure, it's almost like a game,

687
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: like a word game.

688
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: Yeah a bit?

689
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: Did you just go a bit? And then the the

690
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 3: the unique britishness of it all, Yeah, has a lot

691
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 3: to do with it. I think.

692
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, because even though it got exported to Australia, no

693
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: one associates it with Australia. Sorry Australia.

694
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: But if we like if it really took off in

695
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 3: America with hipsters. People in Britain would probably be like,

696
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: forget it, it's flown the it's flat. Well, what is

697
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: flown the coop? What could you say for coop?

698
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: It's it's uh on the Gwyneth and the goop. So

699
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: the Gwyneth, it's flown the Gwyneth. Okay, we'll see that.

700
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: One might catch on.

701
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: I can do this all day. Some of them aren't

702
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: so good, but other ones are gems.

703
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 3: The why of it all though, to begin with, I

704
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 3: thought was interesting. I asked you why, and you said

705
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: you don't know. You said, why is it sticking around?

706
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: I mean, why did it start to begin with?

707
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: Oh?

708
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 3: Okay, and I think you know. Ed makes a pretty

709
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 3: good point that they're just rhyming. Period has always been

710
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 3: a thing, even in the state, and he uses examples

711
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: like see you later, alligator after a whild Crocodisle, Like

712
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 3: I remember saying that when I was a kid. I

713
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 3: just said that yesterday, did you really? Yeah, see you later, alligator. Yeah.

714
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 3: There's just something about it. Maybe it's the childlike nature

715
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 3: of it that's fun. It makes old people feel young again.

716
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean, like it takes something boring and

717
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 1: adds a little flair to it, you know.

718
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 3: Or like Yiddish, like fancy shmancy. I love that people

719
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 3: say that kind of stuff all the time. I never

720
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: associated it with Yiddish, but it absolutely is, isn't it.

721
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 3: I think so. I mean, not outright Yiddish, but Yiddish culture.

722
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 3: I think so. But yeah, it is strange. It is

723
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 3: strange that it started to begin with, and like I

724
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 3: wish there was a definite like person zero that we

725
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: could point to. Yeah, and you know, on the streets

726
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 3: of London and someone thought it was funny and then

727
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 3: they told two friends and so on and so on.

728
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: Yep, really it's not. Richie started it and Patsy and

729
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: Ralph Mouth took it from there and it just kept

730
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: spreading like wildfire.

731
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:05,959
Speaker 3: You got anything else? Yes?

732
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: I found a twenty twelve survey by the Museum of

733
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: London and it set off a bunch of articles about

734
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 1: how Cockney Ryeman's slang is dying. But if you read

735
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: the article, it says that forty percent of respondents believe

736
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: it was dying, which means sixty percent don't believe it's dying. Yeah,

737
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: so yeah, And then they go on to talk about

738
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: how there's all these new words that are being replaced

739
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: and added, so I don't think it's going anywhere. I

740
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: think it's usage just become more ironic and everything. But

741
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: it's still like most most Britains still understand porky pies

742
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: means lies. Yeah, like don't tell me any porky's, give

743
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: it to me straight.

744
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 3: Well, I think it was good we were able to

745
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 3: sit here and have a good rabbit in pork sure

746
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 3: or torque. Apparently rabbit and pork is talk.

747
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: But oh, that was one other thing the studying this.

748
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: There's reasons people study this. It gives you a window

749
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: into the past.

750
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 3: For example, like pronunciations yes, uh huh.

751
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: So farthing used to be a Camden well farthings like

752
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: a quarter penny that they don't use anymore, but it

753
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 1: used to be called a Camden after Camden gardens, which

754
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: tells linguists if they would get off their dusts and

755
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: study this thing that they used to pronounce farthings as fardins. Oh, interesting,

756
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: or at least it's something that rhyme closely to gardens.

757
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: But that's why people study this allegedly amazing. Well, if

758
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 1: you want to know more about Cockney rhyming slang. Get

759
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: yourself a great Cockney rhyming dictionary and go to England

760
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: and just start talking up a storm.

761
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 3: They love that stuff. They love they can't get enough.

762
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 3: They'll treat you like one of their own. That's right.

763
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: And since we said that it's time for listener mate.

764
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: Satanic Panic, can we just re release that as a

765
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 3: Saturday select? I think that was Was that one of

766
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 3: your picture one of mine? I don't know, I'm not sure,

767
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 3: but it was. It was a good pick for October.

768
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 3: One of our favorite episodes. Yeah, I think of all time.

769
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: And we got a lot of people emailing again about

770
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 3: it after listening to it for the first time. Hey, guys,

771
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 3: listened to Satan and Panic and realized had a story

772
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 3: about that. I grew up in a suburb of California.

773
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: By the teenageers, i'd become what you might call goth.

774
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 3: Wore black spike, jewelry, dark makeup and all that stuff.

775
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 3: My town had a ten pm curfew, and one night

776
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 3: when I was fourteen, my friends and I were walking

777
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: home after curfew got pulled over by the cops. They

778
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: questioned and searched us, then called the parents. Except for

779
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: mine I'm not sure why, but the officer insisted on

780
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 3: driving me home. Once there, he also demanded to come

781
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 3: inside my home. I was too scared to argue, so

782
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: I let him in. He went to my bedroom. This

783
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: is getting creepy. I was really worried about where this

784
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 3: was headed. He went to my bedroom, which was full

785
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 3: of posters of Marilyn Manson and the Crow and stuff

786
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: like that, and he started going through my things. What

787
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 3: he told me he was concerned because Satanists are out

788
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: there and that if I wasn't careful, I'd find myself sacrificed.

789
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 3: He told me there were rituals and barns that require virgins,

790
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 3: and I should rethink my lifestyle before I got raped

791
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 3: or hurt. I thanked him for his concern, and I

792
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 3: quietly said everything nice that I could to get him

793
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 3: out of my house before he woke up my father situation.

794
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,919
Speaker 3: This happened in two thousand. After hearing your episode today,

795
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: it's hard to believe that the residue of the Satanic

796
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 3: panic would still be around then, especially in the police force.

797
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: Just to be clear, the suburb I lived in had

798
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: very little crime, so the officer was very surprising. Indeed,

799
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 3: my boys and I love your show. I recommend it

800
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 3: to everyone. Nice. That is from Lisa G. There's really something, Lisa,

801
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 3: I know, kind of disturbing. Yeah, Like I don't know

802
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 3: if that cop was a good guy. I don't know.

803
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 3: It started to go down a pretty creepy road there,

804
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 3: it really did.

805
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe he was just looking for some pod or something.

806
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: He was just coming up with a cover story.

807
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 3: I got to get in your room and go through

808
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 3: your stuff. You got any weed? Yeah? Really? I was

809
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: relieved to know that it just ended in the cop leaving.

810
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 3: But yeah, agreed, he went above and beyond and not

811
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 3: in a good way.

812
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: Right. Well, thanks a lot, Lisa, and glad that you

813
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: made it through that and that you and your boys

814
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: are listening to Stuff you Should Know. Could you get

815
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: any cooler? I don't think so. Well, if you want

816
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: to be cool like Lisa Ander boys, you can get

817
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: in touch with this by going on to Stuff you

818
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: Should Know, checking out our social links there, and as always,

819
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: send us an email to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

820
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

821
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple

822
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,