WEBVTT - The Deepcut Suicides 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.680 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.080 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.079 learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:26.360 production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.280 My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.320 me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:37.640 Paul Mission controlled deconds. Most importantly, you argue, you are here, 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.080 and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.239 It's obvious to everybody listening today, whether or not you 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.839 have been in the military, whether or not you have 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.159 a friend or a loved one in the arms forces, 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.840 that life in any country's military can be brutal and 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:01.520 depending on where you enlist. Training itself, just the just 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.319 the training part, just when you're becoming a soldier, can 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.360 be especially taxing. It stretches individuals to their mental and 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:14.400 physical limits, and sometimes it pushes them beyond those limits, 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:20.960 with catastrophic consequences to follow. Today's episode is probably best 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:25.760 framed as an introduction to a story that many of 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:30.280 us in the US especially may not know. The reason 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.640 I'm stressing that this is an introduction is because there 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.120 is so much to this rabbit hole. This is a 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:41.240 warren of rabbit holes. And what we're going to do 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.800 in this episode is the same thing we do with 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:46.880 every show. We're going to give you the facts. We're 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.360 going to tell you where it gets crazy. But we 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.600 do want you to know that there is much much, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.840 much more information out there. And uh, we talked a 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.800 little bit about this off air. We consider this an 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:08.480 ongoing case. We'll call it the Deep Cut. Four. Here 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.960 are the facts. This story takes place in London, just 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.440 outside of London, actually about an hour and a half 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.120 drive southwest of the city of London, which is a 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.200 place we've talked about before on this show. The city 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:25.600 of London exists within London or Greater London. Uh, that's 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:29.360 a whole episode in itself, but specifically, we're going to 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.800 the Deep Cut Barracks. It's known as Princess Royal Barracks 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:40.640 Deep Cut. It's near Camberly, Surrey in England, and before 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:45.200 it was also known as black Down Barracks. Yeah, in 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:51.160 the Royal engineers started to build uh several camps around 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.480 this facility. UM. It had originally been used as a 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.920 training ground up until the late eighteen hundreds, but it 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:04.760 didn't really have any formalized infrastructure until nineteen hundred UM. 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.960 The barracks went through a number of different changes, but 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.520 after the story that we're going to dive in today 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:17.240 took place, UM they were scheduled to be torn down 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.799 and today you can see these barracks as the home 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.880 to the Royal Logistic Core Museum UM, which is a 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.359 wing of the of the British Military UM and also 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.000 the Royal Logistics Core Band which is where they're based 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:36.600 in Rehearse and the Defense Logistics School is also there 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.480 and then twenty five training support regiments. Yeah, back in 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:46.120 twent um, as you were deluded to earlier there, the 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:50.080 UK government announced official plans to close down the operation 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:53.760 and to open the land upon which the compounds stands 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.600 for future housing developments. As we record right now, the 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.080 current estimates project the barracks will be completely deep commissioned 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.840 and become a thing of the past by twenty one. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:11.520 That means of course that anything that any way that 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:16.360 the physical location could have assisted in the investigation will 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.919 be full stop gone by next year. What do we 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:25.520 mean when we say investigation, So in Deep Cut Barracks 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:32.960 between and two thousand and two young trainees began dying 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:38.600 under what we would we would like the most diplomatic 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:42.039 way to put it is mysterious circumstances. They all died 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:47.000 from gunshot wounds, and they were all privates, Jeff Gray, Cheryl, 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:52.280 James Sean Benton, and James Collinson. Their deaths were all 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:58.800 ruled suicides by the military, despite strong and continuing objections 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:04.680 from friends, family members, some government officials, and numerous experts. 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.440 We're talking, you know, well journalists as well, but we're 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:13.320 also talking pathologists, ballistics experts, corners and so on. So 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.719 as early as two thousand and two, there were calls 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.320 for an inquiry, and then um, you know, one of 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.800 the big problems, the military was investigating itself, and there 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:29.600 were later police investigations along with reviews of army training procedures. 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.960 And then two years later, in two thousand four, the 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:36.720 government announced that a review of the situation occurring at 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:41.000 Deep Cut concluded that the deaths of these four privates 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:46.760 were probably again here we go, probably self inflicted. It's 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.120 it's a review that you can read right now. It 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.520 was conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. It's available online. Uh, 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:57.040 it's really in depth, very very in depth. One thing 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.960 we found in researching this episode is that the new 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.960 risk inquiries that have occurred since the time of these 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:08.920 deaths are so filled with information it becomes a bit 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.479 difficult to navigate them. But we assure you that it 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:16.920 is worth your time. Uh. This specific one, performed by 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.520 Nicholas Blake QC, focused on the problems that were occurring 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.400 within the system itself, the organization of the military and 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.279 you know, really just the situation at Deep Cut itself 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:32.080 with regards to supervision and what the you know, the 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.480 trainees were doing, how they were looked after, and what 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.800 they had access to. And I want to add here, uh, 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.680 I have spent a lot of time reading some very 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:47.160 you know, very important but very dry reports, and British 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:51.960 legal writing is a different language. I think we were 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.119 talking off air and I was saying, British legal writing 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.279 warps your mind. But the way it would be written 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.600 in your report like this would be something more like 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.120 and in depth analysis us of what may accurately be 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.160 described as the overall linguistic approach to the articulation of 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.360 concepts in the British legal system, conducted by Ben Bull 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:09.039 and PC via Stuff they don't want you to know. 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.240 Subcommittee to I Heart Media finds that numerous individuals have 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.880 encountered circumstances both delatorious and circuitous, and they're going forward 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.800 cognitive function a circumstance they traced to that which could 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.240 also be called British legal writing c n XC appendix 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:26.040 for at all, Like this is this written? I feel 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.360 like this is written. You know. I don't want to 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:34.040 accuse people of trying to make it um illegible for 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.640 the average person, but it's I think they shot themselves 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:39.760 in the foot if they were going for accuracy. Well, 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.720 I mean we've read contracts, you know, and and we 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.040 we have legal documents that come across our inboxes for 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.680 various work things, and they're written pretty pedantic, hard to 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.000 understand language that seems a little pointed at times where 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.120 it's obviously meant to be. That's why you gotta hire 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:56.520 a lawyer, because you gotta have someone who in the 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.120 club who can like decipher this for the lay person. 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:04.640 This is entirely the next level of that. UM I 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:11.640 would I would categorize that writing as maximum formality. Yeah, 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.160 And speaking of maximum formality, I have to say, like 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.160 for part of the research that I did into this topic. 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:21.720 I watched this great BBC Panorama documentary they've done covered 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.520 a lot of interesting stuff over the years, like they 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.680 did want on Scientology, that quite enjoyed, and it's just 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.560 a great series. It's been around for a long time. 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:32.120 But you know, we're talking about one particular barracks. We're 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.199 also talking about the idea of systematic abuse, which is 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.319 obviously very poignant right now with the stuff we're going 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.600 through in our history as a country and as a 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.800 as a human race. But we're not necessarily trying to 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:48.000 damn the entire British military here. We are looking at 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.840 a specific case, and the British military will deny that 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.560 these things are systematic and that they do try to 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.840 root out any quote unquote bad actors in the system. Um. 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.080 But you know, for anyone who has certain in the military, 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.520 I know it can feel when people who have not 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.240 certain in the military are criticizing these structures that it 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:08.760 can feel a little bit like, you know, how where 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.160 where do you get off or something? But I I 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:15.720 feel like the there the researches here, the data is here. Um, 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.680 maybe not enough to apply it to the whole system, 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.040 but it sure makes you think, and I think now 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.040 is a great time to to talk about these these deaths. 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.679 So let's jump back to that two thousand four review 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.360 conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. Within it, there are a 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.760 lot of recommendations about what could be done better, perhaps, 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:38.160 but again it's focused squarely on the system itself and 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.600 the way the military is organized. UH. If you look 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.080 deeply into it, it shows that these four deaths, which 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:49.520 again the report characterizes as self inflicted UH or suicide, 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:51.840 it does say that many have occurred due to a 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:57.280 number of dangerous contributing factors at specifically Deep Cut barracks. Yeah, 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.840 there are things like you'll see these observations and then 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.880 you'll also see UM, if you if you fast forward 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.160 to you know, page three hundred and forty or so, 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.280 you'll see things. You'll see recommendations for how these could 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:16.080 be fixed. UH. The problems, according to the QCs report, 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.040 QC stands for Queen's Counsel. Think of it like a 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.800 super lawyer. The problems are things like lack of control 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.199 over access to firearms in the barracks. They were very 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.720 loose with that poor supervision, which I think we have 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:35.200 specifics on later in the show, poor accommodation, lack of 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:40.199 discipline and prevalent like Lord of the Fly style bullying, 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:46.840 unofficial punishments, sexual harassment and abuse, running rampant no real 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.840 complaint mechanism, which is something we see in a lot 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:54.640 of organizations, honestly and low quality instructors. The review, as 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:58.079 you might imagine, did not satisfy the parents and loved 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:02.359 ones of these four dead trainees, so the police conducted 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:07.520 for other inquiries for subsequent investigations. These have never been 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.920 made public. They're there somewhere unless the evidence was destroyed, 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.320 which is a possibility, but they've never been made public. 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.120 And these parents believe their children did not die from suicide. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.960 They believe their children were murdered and that the UK 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:27.760 government was and is actively covering it up. So why 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.480 did they think that? We'll tell you after we're from 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:40.920 our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. We mentioned the 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.959 names here, but um, let's let's explore the specific details 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.000 of these these deaths. And also these are the four 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.280 known deaths. That doesn't mean there aren't more. So first 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.640 we have Jeff Gray, who's from London, seventeen years old. 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.520 Um he was found dead with two gunshot wounds to 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.040 the head on September seven in teens two thousand one. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:06.800 It was officially internally ruled like within the military organization, 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.640 ruled a suicide. He was on guard duty. And this 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.200 is the thing. We talked about this a little bit 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.360 off air, and Matt was kind of telling Paul about 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.240 the story. Uh, this was a very common kind of well, 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.560 I'm gonna call it like a chore or like a duty, 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:22.280 like a thing that everyone was expected to do and 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.720 take turns. They were guarding in these wooded areas, the 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:30.719 outskirts of the barracks. Uh, all night long, very sleep deprived. Um, 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:32.920 and it's something that everyone was expected to do. He 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.200 was on guard duty. He had left his group to 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:40.880 perform a maneuver they call prowler patrol, where you go 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.080 on your own around the outskirts of the you know, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:45.719 just basically like, yeah, it's the kind of thing you 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.120 see in like war movies where someone you know standing 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.600 post and then every so often they go and walk 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:53.640 around and make their rounds to make sure no one's 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.000 lurking in the bushes or anything. Uh So he did that. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:03.160 Anecdotal evidence that we've found suggests that someone else. It's 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.080 entirely likely, uh, in fact probable, that someone else fired 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.600 the shots that ended Jeff's life. Um. There are four 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:15.560 witnesses that have testified to seeing a figure running from 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.880 the place where Private Gray's body was found. Um, we've 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:24.240 also found evidence, um in the research that suggests that 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.160 someone moved his body. Yeah, and and we're gonna talk 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.360 more specifics about this stuff as we go on. For now, 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.040 we're just gonna tell you the basic details of of 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:39.800 these individuals. Another young soldier who died was named James Collinson. 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.080 He was for Perth. He was also seventeen, like Jeff. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.600 He died on March two from a single gunshot wound 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.440 to his head while he was on guard duty. His 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:56.480 body was found near a perimeter fence there at the facility. 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.600 And it just should be noted here that several of 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:05.640 the areas of Deep Cup Barracks have these very large 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:12.479 perimeter fences where the guard duty essentially was was performed 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:17.280 near nearer these fences. Then there's the third case. We're 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.160 jumping around a little bit in time here, but the 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.920 third case is Cheryl James. She's eighteen, she was from 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.640 Land Gulf Land and Wales. And she was found dead 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.560 from a single gunshot wound to the head on November. 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.200 Like those other two cases we've mentioned, she was on 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:41.160 guard duty. Her body was found in the woods nearby 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:46.880 her abandoned post. Yeah, and and Cheryl allegedly was the 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:52.640 target of widespread sexual harassment by commanding officers UM, which 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.080 is a culture that we we've seen many many accounts 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:00.480 of being kind of pervasive within Deep cut UM, whether 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:05.560 just in passing or potentially as a tool of control UM. 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:10.000 There are various accounts of this. UH, people denying these allegations, 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.320 but I just I think it's important to mention that 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.800 there's a lot of UH discussion about these things being 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.880 very real by folks who have passed through this facility 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.080 over the years. You know, I would also say, each 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.080 one of these individuals is their own person. They were 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.320 the own protagonists in their story, as we mentioned on 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.080 this show a lot, and in some of these inquiries, 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:37.480 the deep background on on these folks. You know, there 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.040 are complications in every person's life and that's you know, 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:41.960 one of the major things that was looked at in 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.520 these inquiries. So we we again I am stressing we 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.440 are just giving you the absolute top down view at 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:55.240 this moment on these people. Yeah. Yeah. The last of 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.480 the deep cut four by which we mean the acknowledged 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.920 deaths in this ongoing to investigation was Sean Benton. Sean 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.880 was twenty years old. He was a local is from Hastings, 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:13.280 East Sussex. Benton died from five gunshot wounds to the 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:19.280 chest after he was also on a guard duty assignment. 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.960 After he was also on patrol of the perimeter, and 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.280 he was, like some of the other cases, on an 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:30.720 unauthorized solo patrol that's occurred on June nine. As we mentioned, 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:37.080 military the military Internal Investigation quickly and in their mind 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.360 definitively said that all four had shot themselves with their 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:45.960 own rifles while on guard duty, although the coroner at 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:50.480 the time recorded a verdict of suicide in only one case. Yeah, 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.240 and just just to really quick add a detail to Sean, 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.240 he is um I believe correct me if I'm wrong, guys, 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.120 But the only one where we actually have a detailed 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.680 suicide note that he left behind. There's an article, uh 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.760 that it's on the Daily Mail, which you know, I 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.440 know it's a little bit of a kind of take 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.080 it with a grain of salt of times. But this 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.600 is a document that they published that they got ahold of. 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.880 It was this, uh, this note where he claimed that 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.080 he he was being discharged from the army and that 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.439 he couldn't cope with returning to city street life, that 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:25.200 all he ever wanted as a career in the army. Um. 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.240 And we'll come back to this. And there's definitely this is, 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.679 in my opinion, by far, one of the more unusual 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.639 cases of the of the four here. But Sean was 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:41.480 characterizes having had some history of of psychological uh problems, um, 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.600 and potentially a history of depression. Um. But we'll we'll 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.359 revisit that a little bit. And yet he ended up 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.640 with five gunshot wounds to the chest. Right. But also 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:52.959 we we do have we do have what is being 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:55.160 referred to as a suicide note from him, but there's 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.119 some problems with that too. Yeah. And each of these, 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:04.080 each of these casesly becomes, i think, uh, its own separate, 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:10.320 distinct morass of conflicting information. Uh. And perhaps the one 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.679 thing they have in common is an active cover up. 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.879 But uh, it's it's not our jump to it's not 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:17.840 our job to tell you that we just want to 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:22.560 give you the facts of the matter. While while these 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:28.840 events occurred decades ago, right, the multiple reports all indicate that, 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.240 regardless of how these young privates died, Deep Cut itself 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:37.840 was in the midst of a desperate and quiet crisis. UM. 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.160 We have investigative journalists like Brian Cathcart who have found 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:47.320 that the institution routinely exposed trainees to bullying, sex and 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:53.439 flagrant like ridiculous disregard for rules relating to firearms like 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:58.280 even more UM lack of daisical than a bunch of 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.480 buddies who just get shotguns and drinking beer and shooting 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.439 at cans with their friends. It was bad. Additionally, the 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.000 Ministry of Defense or m O D as will refer 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:13.040 to moving Forward UM, has been accused of withholding, possibly 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:17.320 even destroying evidence related to this case. We've got Jim 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:21.320 Collinson uh forty years old, the father of James UM 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.320 compared getting information you know, I mean, think about it 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.960 like your child has died under mysterious circumstances. They're not 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.720 you know, you know your child. You don't understand how 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.640 could they do this? Suicide is such a difficult thing 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.920 in that way, and to not get any answers would 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.960 just prolong that morning period. And you know, you you 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:43.880 expect that if, if, if the Ministry has nothing to hide, 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.080 they would be forthcoming with information about the case. But 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:50.879 apparently it was just not to be. Jim Collinson Um again, 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.800 the father of James, said getting information from the m 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.280 o D was like getting blood from a stone. Uh. 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:57.760 There's a quote from him saying the m o D 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.200 wouldn't come forward and explain what happened to or some 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.080 that night. Then three days after his funeral, I phoned 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.680 up a senior official at Deep Cut and asked him 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:10.480 how the investigation was going. He replied, one body, one gun, 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:16.439 draw your own conclusion. Yikes. I mean, come on, just 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.560 let's have a little bit of bedside manner at the 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.880 very least. And that seemed to have been their attitude overall. 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.600 James was just just a number. This was this case closed. 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:29.280 You know, it's the same with the police. When they 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:31.280 close a case or close a murder, they don't want 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:32.959 to think about it ever again they have moved on. 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.280 There's no empathy, there's no room for empathy in these organizations. 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:39.760 Sometimes it seems uh not to be not to say 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.800 that's the case for every officer, but it seems in general, 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.680 this whole idea of emotionlessness is is a big part 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.080 of the military and these kinds of organizations we've got 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.760 another account for. I would just say that if a 0:20:54.800 --> 0:21:00.360 police officer dies, the investigation into that death, I would say, 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.960 is far more rigorous than the death of a citizen 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.840 would be, UM, just because of the resources, internal resources 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:09.960 that would be going into finding out what happened to 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.800 a fellow officer. And I think maybe what you're signaling 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.640 here is that it feels as though if a member 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:22.120 of the military, any military is killed or dead for 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:27.359 any reason, um, outside of wartime, outside of active engagement, 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:32.600 then it feels as though the most, the most strenuous 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:36.920 things should be done, the most um intense steps should 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:39.760 be taken to find out exactly what happened. And maybe 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:42.920 it seems as though we're not seeing that and did 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:48.200 not see that the banality of evil right most most 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:53.760 uh you know, so with institutions of this size, fiction 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.960 often gets it wrong. It's not, as it is so 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:59.719 rarely the case that there is some sort of uh 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:04.120 antagonistic super villain who thinks I am the bad guy 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.840 and I am doing evil things. A lot of times, 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:10.800 it's just a person with a very narrowly defined scope 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:16.639 of responsibility. Uh. And these investigations can become normalized. I 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:18.520 see it all the time on this show. It is 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.879 disturbing how quickly things become normal. So if you were 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:29.200 investigating certain circumstances of horrible things like deaths, day in 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:34.840 day out, then what becomes the worst event in someone's 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:39.000 entire life for other people becomes a Tuesday, you know. 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:43.640 And and that's not right, but it's it's what happens. 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:48.800 There's desensitization. The parents have been vocal about this for 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:52.760 for decades. Uh. Does James is the father of Cheryl. 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:57.560 James said, he he brought up, like the QC, he 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:00.400 brought up the ongoing problems with the system we're just scribing. 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:03.639 He actually said, we believe the central issue is not 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:07.359 how Cheryl died, but why her death was not thoroughly 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:11.000 investigated at the time. To your point, Matt, he said, 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:15.840 any meaningful investigation into our daughter's death in nineteen was denied. 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.320 The Army assumed her death was a suicide. Uh. And 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.960 he says there's clear evidence to support that fact. Army 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:25.919 documents that we have in our possession, referred to her 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:29.040 tragic suicide on decept and that's the Army's quote, their 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:34.600 tragic suicide on December fourteenth, nine. And that's one week 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:40.159 before the coroner's court even convened an end quest, meaning 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:45.800 the Army, before like an autopsy or a coroner's investigation occurred. 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:49.120 The Army went ahead and just said it was self inflicted. Yeah, 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.159 and you know, I mean we we again with suici EI. 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.080 There's so many it's it's obviously really triggering subject for 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:58.240 many people. Um there's a lot that that happens when 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:01.719 something is ruled us to us side. So you know, 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:06.080 for example, if if um uh, someone has an insurance 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:09.159 policy on themselves and they are they can take their 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:11.520 own lives, that's insurance policy doesn't pay out. Not to 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:14.000 say there's any any of that's going into these decisions, 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:15.960 but I'm just saying, is it's a big deal to 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:19.080 rule something a suicide. It means something. Uh So to 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:22.520 just flippidly do that and just say case closed, it 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.240 just it feels very irresponsible, And it feels like they're 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.280 just looking out for the optics of it and and 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.720 and trying to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing as quickly 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:36.520 as possible. Yeah, you know, there there's some stuff I 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:39.439 found about Jeff Gray that I took personally, to be 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:42.440 honest with you, UM and his parents were more explicit. 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:46.920 But we kept finding more to this story. Every every 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:50.919 string we pulled, every puzzle piece we interlocked, led to 0:24:50.960 --> 0:24:53.920 another puzzle piece, another string of what appears to be 0:24:54.720 --> 0:25:00.160 a tremendously occulted web of ongoing problems here, because, as 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:03.400 James also said that he had on record, there were 0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:07.200 no less than five other attempted suicides at Deep Cut 0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:12.159 and they just work externally reported. And then you mentioned 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:18.600 earlier the panorama, the panorama video from BBC that that 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.520 appears to confirm some of this, right, Yeah, they they 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:28.200 found a document um that lists uh, several additional suicide 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:31.760 attempts unsuccessful suicide attempts. UM. I guess that's what's been 0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:35.520 attempt is uh. And it catalogs all of the various 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:38.720 methods that were used by these cadets, including overdosing on 0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:41.920 um a, sena, mena fin or paracetamol. Isn't that that's 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:43.439 what they call? It's the same thing, right, so they 0:25:43.480 --> 0:25:47.200