Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer
Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled deconds. Most importantly, you argue, you are here,
Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 1: It's obvious to everybody listening today, whether or not you
Speaker 1: have been in the military, whether or not you have
Speaker 1: a friend or a loved one in the arms forces,
Speaker 1: that life in any country's military can be brutal and
Speaker 1: depending on where you enlist. Training itself, just the just
Speaker 1: the training part, just when you're becoming a soldier, can
Speaker 1: be especially taxing. It stretches individuals to their mental and
Speaker 1: physical limits, and sometimes it pushes them beyond those limits,
Speaker 1: with catastrophic consequences to follow. Today's episode is probably best
Speaker 1: framed as an introduction to a story that many of
Speaker 1: us in the US especially may not know. The reason
Speaker 1: I'm stressing that this is an introduction is because there
Speaker 1: is so much to this rabbit hole. This is a
Speaker 1: warren of rabbit holes. And what we're going to do
Speaker 1: in this episode is the same thing we do with
Speaker 1: every show. We're going to give you the facts. We're
Speaker 1: going to tell you where it gets crazy. But we
Speaker 1: do want you to know that there is much much,
Speaker 1: much more information out there. And uh, we talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about this off air. We consider this an
Speaker 1: ongoing case. We'll call it the Deep Cut. Four. Here
Speaker 1: are the facts. This story takes place in London, just
Speaker 1: outside of London, actually about an hour and a half
Speaker 1: drive southwest of the city of London, which is a
Speaker 1: place we've talked about before on this show. The city
Speaker 1: of London exists within London or Greater London. Uh, that's
Speaker 1: a whole episode in itself, but specifically, we're going to
Speaker 1: the Deep Cut Barracks. It's known as Princess Royal Barracks
Speaker 1: Deep Cut. It's near Camberly, Surrey in England, and before
Speaker 1: it was also known as black Down Barracks. Yeah, in
Speaker 1: the Royal engineers started to build uh several camps around
Speaker 1: this facility. UM. It had originally been used as a
Speaker 1: training ground up until the late eighteen hundreds, but it
Speaker 1: didn't really have any formalized infrastructure until nineteen hundred UM.
Speaker 1: The barracks went through a number of different changes, but
Speaker 1: after the story that we're going to dive in today
Speaker 1: took place, UM they were scheduled to be torn down
Speaker 1: and today you can see these barracks as the home
Speaker 1: to the Royal Logistic Core Museum UM, which is a
Speaker 1: wing of the of the British Military UM and also
Speaker 1: the Royal Logistics Core Band which is where they're based
Speaker 1: in Rehearse and the Defense Logistics School is also there
Speaker 1: and then twenty five training support regiments. Yeah, back in
Speaker 1: twent um, as you were deluded to earlier there, the
Speaker 1: UK government announced official plans to close down the operation
Speaker 1: and to open the land upon which the compounds stands
Speaker 1: for future housing developments. As we record right now, the
Speaker 1: current estimates project the barracks will be completely deep commissioned
Speaker 1: and become a thing of the past by twenty one.
Speaker 1: That means of course that anything that any way that
Speaker 1: the physical location could have assisted in the investigation will
Speaker 1: be full stop gone by next year. What do we
Speaker 1: mean when we say investigation, So in Deep Cut Barracks
Speaker 1: between and two thousand and two young trainees began dying
Speaker 1: under what we would we would like the most diplomatic
Speaker 1: way to put it is mysterious circumstances. They all died
Speaker 1: from gunshot wounds, and they were all privates, Jeff Gray, Cheryl,
Speaker 1: James Sean Benton, and James Collinson. Their deaths were all
Speaker 1: ruled suicides by the military, despite strong and continuing objections
Speaker 1: from friends, family members, some government officials, and numerous experts.
Speaker 1: We're talking, you know, well journalists as well, but we're
Speaker 1: also talking pathologists, ballistics experts, corners and so on. So
Speaker 1: as early as two thousand and two, there were calls
Speaker 1: for an inquiry, and then um, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the big problems, the military was investigating itself, and there
Speaker 1: were later police investigations along with reviews of army training procedures.
Speaker 1: And then two years later, in two thousand four, the
Speaker 1: government announced that a review of the situation occurring at
Speaker 1: Deep Cut concluded that the deaths of these four privates
Speaker 1: were probably again here we go, probably self inflicted. It's
Speaker 1: it's a review that you can read right now. It
Speaker 1: was conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. It's available online. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's really in depth, very very in depth. One thing
Speaker 1: we found in researching this episode is that the new
Speaker 1: risk inquiries that have occurred since the time of these
Speaker 1: deaths are so filled with information it becomes a bit
Speaker 1: difficult to navigate them. But we assure you that it
Speaker 1: is worth your time. Uh. This specific one, performed by
Speaker 1: Nicholas Blake QC, focused on the problems that were occurring
Speaker 1: within the system itself, the organization of the military and
Speaker 1: you know, really just the situation at Deep Cut itself
Speaker 1: with regards to supervision and what the you know, the
Speaker 1: trainees were doing, how they were looked after, and what
Speaker 1: they had access to. And I want to add here, uh,
Speaker 1: I have spent a lot of time reading some very
Speaker 1: you know, very important but very dry reports, and British
Speaker 1: legal writing is a different language. I think we were
Speaker 1: talking off air and I was saying, British legal writing
Speaker 1: warps your mind. But the way it would be written
Speaker 1: in your report like this would be something more like
Speaker 1: and in depth analysis us of what may accurately be
Speaker 1: described as the overall linguistic approach to the articulation of
Speaker 1: concepts in the British legal system, conducted by Ben Bull
Speaker 1: and PC via Stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 1: Subcommittee to I Heart Media finds that numerous individuals have
Speaker 1: encountered circumstances both delatorious and circuitous, and they're going forward
Speaker 1: cognitive function a circumstance they traced to that which could
Speaker 1: also be called British legal writing c n XC appendix
Speaker 1: for at all, Like this is this written? I feel
Speaker 1: like this is written. You know. I don't want to
Speaker 1: accuse people of trying to make it um illegible for
Speaker 1: the average person, but it's I think they shot themselves
Speaker 1: in the foot if they were going for accuracy. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean we've read contracts, you know, and and we
Speaker 1: we have legal documents that come across our inboxes for
Speaker 1: various work things, and they're written pretty pedantic, hard to
Speaker 1: understand language that seems a little pointed at times where
Speaker 1: it's obviously meant to be. That's why you gotta hire
Speaker 1: a lawyer, because you gotta have someone who in the
Speaker 1: club who can like decipher this for the lay person.
Speaker 1: This is entirely the next level of that. UM I
Speaker 1: would I would categorize that writing as maximum formality. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And speaking of maximum formality, I have to say, like
Speaker 1: for part of the research that I did into this topic.
Speaker 1: I watched this great BBC Panorama documentary they've done covered
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting stuff over the years, like they
Speaker 1: did want on Scientology, that quite enjoyed, and it's just
Speaker 1: a great series. It's been around for a long time.
Speaker 1: But you know, we're talking about one particular barracks. We're
Speaker 1: also talking about the idea of systematic abuse, which is
Speaker 1: obviously very poignant right now with the stuff we're going
Speaker 1: through in our history as a country and as a
Speaker 1: as a human race. But we're not necessarily trying to
Speaker 1: damn the entire British military here. We are looking at
Speaker 1: a specific case, and the British military will deny that
Speaker 1: these things are systematic and that they do try to
Speaker 1: root out any quote unquote bad actors in the system. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, for anyone who has certain in the military,
Speaker 1: I know it can feel when people who have not
Speaker 1: certain in the military are criticizing these structures that it
Speaker 1: can feel a little bit like, you know, how where
Speaker 1: where do you get off or something? But I I
Speaker 1: feel like the there the researches here, the data is here. Um,
Speaker 1: maybe not enough to apply it to the whole system,
Speaker 1: but it sure makes you think, and I think now
Speaker 1: is a great time to to talk about these these deaths.
Speaker 1: So let's jump back to that two thousand four review
Speaker 1: conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. Within it, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of recommendations about what could be done better, perhaps,
Speaker 1: but again it's focused squarely on the system itself and
Speaker 1: the way the military is organized. UH. If you look
Speaker 1: deeply into it, it shows that these four deaths, which
Speaker 1: again the report characterizes as self inflicted UH or suicide,
Speaker 1: it does say that many have occurred due to a
Speaker 1: number of dangerous contributing factors at specifically Deep Cut barracks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are things like you'll see these observations and then
Speaker 1: you'll also see UM, if you if you fast forward
Speaker 1: to you know, page three hundred and forty or so,
Speaker 1: you'll see things. You'll see recommendations for how these could
Speaker 1: be fixed. UH. The problems, according to the QCs report,
Speaker 1: QC stands for Queen's Counsel. Think of it like a
Speaker 1: super lawyer. The problems are things like lack of control
Speaker 1: over access to firearms in the barracks. They were very
Speaker 1: loose with that poor supervision, which I think we have
Speaker 1: specifics on later in the show, poor accommodation, lack of
Speaker 1: discipline and prevalent like Lord of the Fly style bullying,
Speaker 1: unofficial punishments, sexual harassment and abuse, running rampant no real
Speaker 1: complaint mechanism, which is something we see in a lot
Speaker 1: of organizations, honestly and low quality instructors. The review, as
Speaker 1: you might imagine, did not satisfy the parents and loved
Speaker 1: ones of these four dead trainees, so the police conducted
Speaker 1: for other inquiries for subsequent investigations. These have never been
Speaker 1: made public. They're there somewhere unless the evidence was destroyed,
Speaker 1: which is a possibility, but they've never been made public.
Speaker 1: And these parents believe their children did not die from suicide.
Speaker 1: They believe their children were murdered and that the UK
Speaker 1: government was and is actively covering it up. So why
Speaker 1: did they think that? We'll tell you after we're from
Speaker 1: our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. We mentioned the
Speaker 1: names here, but um, let's let's explore the specific details
Speaker 1: of these these deaths. And also these are the four
Speaker 1: known deaths. That doesn't mean there aren't more. So first
Speaker 1: we have Jeff Gray, who's from London, seventeen years old.
Speaker 1: Um he was found dead with two gunshot wounds to
Speaker 1: the head on September seven in teens two thousand one.
Speaker 1: It was officially internally ruled like within the military organization,
Speaker 1: ruled a suicide. He was on guard duty. And this
Speaker 1: is the thing. We talked about this a little bit
Speaker 1: off air, and Matt was kind of telling Paul about
Speaker 1: the story. Uh, this was a very common kind of well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it like a chore or like a duty,
Speaker 1: like a thing that everyone was expected to do and
Speaker 1: take turns. They were guarding in these wooded areas, the
Speaker 1: outskirts of the barracks. Uh, all night long, very sleep deprived. Um,
Speaker 1: and it's something that everyone was expected to do. He
Speaker 1: was on guard duty. He had left his group to
Speaker 1: perform a maneuver they call prowler patrol, where you go
Speaker 1: on your own around the outskirts of the you know,
Speaker 1: just basically like, yeah, it's the kind of thing you
Speaker 1: see in like war movies where someone you know standing
Speaker 1: post and then every so often they go and walk
Speaker 1: around and make their rounds to make sure no one's
Speaker 1: lurking in the bushes or anything. Uh So he did that.
Speaker 1: Anecdotal evidence that we've found suggests that someone else. It's
Speaker 1: entirely likely, uh, in fact probable, that someone else fired
Speaker 1: the shots that ended Jeff's life. Um. There are four
Speaker 1: witnesses that have testified to seeing a figure running from
Speaker 1: the place where Private Gray's body was found. Um, we've
Speaker 1: also found evidence, um in the research that suggests that
Speaker 1: someone moved his body. Yeah, and and we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: more specifics about this stuff as we go on. For now,
Speaker 1: we're just gonna tell you the basic details of of
Speaker 1: these individuals. Another young soldier who died was named James Collinson.
Speaker 1: He was for Perth. He was also seventeen, like Jeff.
Speaker 1: He died on March two from a single gunshot wound
Speaker 1: to his head while he was on guard duty. His
Speaker 1: body was found near a perimeter fence there at the facility.
Speaker 1: And it just should be noted here that several of
Speaker 1: the areas of Deep Cup Barracks have these very large
Speaker 1: perimeter fences where the guard duty essentially was was performed
Speaker 1: near nearer these fences. Then there's the third case. We're
Speaker 1: jumping around a little bit in time here, but the
Speaker 1: third case is Cheryl James. She's eighteen, she was from
Speaker 1: Land Gulf Land and Wales. And she was found dead
Speaker 1: from a single gunshot wound to the head on November.
Speaker 1: Like those other two cases we've mentioned, she was on
Speaker 1: guard duty. Her body was found in the woods nearby
Speaker 1: her abandoned post. Yeah, and and Cheryl allegedly was the
Speaker 1: target of widespread sexual harassment by commanding officers UM, which
Speaker 1: is a culture that we we've seen many many accounts
Speaker 1: of being kind of pervasive within Deep cut UM, whether
Speaker 1: just in passing or potentially as a tool of control UM.
Speaker 1: There are various accounts of this. UH, people denying these allegations,
Speaker 1: but I just I think it's important to mention that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of UH discussion about these things being
Speaker 1: very real by folks who have passed through this facility
Speaker 1: over the years. You know, I would also say, each
Speaker 1: one of these individuals is their own person. They were
Speaker 1: the own protagonists in their story, as we mentioned on
Speaker 1: this show a lot, and in some of these inquiries,
Speaker 1: the deep background on on these folks. You know, there
Speaker 1: are complications in every person's life and that's you know,
Speaker 1: one of the major things that was looked at in
Speaker 1: these inquiries. So we we again I am stressing we
Speaker 1: are just giving you the absolute top down view at
Speaker 1: this moment on these people. Yeah. Yeah. The last of
Speaker 1: the deep cut four by which we mean the acknowledged
Speaker 1: deaths in this ongoing to investigation was Sean Benton. Sean
Speaker 1: was twenty years old. He was a local is from Hastings,
Speaker 1: East Sussex. Benton died from five gunshot wounds to the
Speaker 1: chest after he was also on a guard duty assignment.
Speaker 1: After he was also on patrol of the perimeter, and
Speaker 1: he was, like some of the other cases, on an
Speaker 1: unauthorized solo patrol that's occurred on June nine. As we mentioned,
Speaker 1: military the military Internal Investigation quickly and in their mind
Speaker 1: definitively said that all four had shot themselves with their
Speaker 1: own rifles while on guard duty, although the coroner at
Speaker 1: the time recorded a verdict of suicide in only one case. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and just just to really quick add a detail to Sean,
Speaker 1: he is um I believe correct me if I'm wrong, guys,
Speaker 1: But the only one where we actually have a detailed
Speaker 1: suicide note that he left behind. There's an article, uh
Speaker 1: that it's on the Daily Mail, which you know, I
Speaker 1: know it's a little bit of a kind of take
Speaker 1: it with a grain of salt of times. But this
Speaker 1: is a document that they published that they got ahold of.
Speaker 1: It was this, uh, this note where he claimed that
Speaker 1: he he was being discharged from the army and that
Speaker 1: he couldn't cope with returning to city street life, that
Speaker 1: all he ever wanted as a career in the army. Um.
Speaker 1: And we'll come back to this. And there's definitely this is,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, by far, one of the more unusual
Speaker 1: cases of the of the four here. But Sean was
Speaker 1: characterizes having had some history of of psychological uh problems, um,
Speaker 1: and potentially a history of depression. Um. But we'll we'll
Speaker 1: revisit that a little bit. And yet he ended up
Speaker 1: with five gunshot wounds to the chest. Right. But also
Speaker 1: we we do have we do have what is being
Speaker 1: referred to as a suicide note from him, but there's
Speaker 1: some problems with that too. Yeah. And each of these,
Speaker 1: each of these casesly becomes, i think, uh, its own separate,
Speaker 1: distinct morass of conflicting information. Uh. And perhaps the one
Speaker 1: thing they have in common is an active cover up.
Speaker 1: But uh, it's it's not our jump to it's not
Speaker 1: our job to tell you that we just want to
Speaker 1: give you the facts of the matter. While while these
Speaker 1: events occurred decades ago, right, the multiple reports all indicate that,
Speaker 1: regardless of how these young privates died, Deep Cut itself
Speaker 1: was in the midst of a desperate and quiet crisis. UM.
Speaker 1: We have investigative journalists like Brian Cathcart who have found
Speaker 1: that the institution routinely exposed trainees to bullying, sex and
Speaker 1: flagrant like ridiculous disregard for rules relating to firearms like
Speaker 1: even more UM lack of daisical than a bunch of
Speaker 1: buddies who just get shotguns and drinking beer and shooting
Speaker 1: at cans with their friends. It was bad. Additionally, the
Speaker 1: Ministry of Defense or m O D as will refer
Speaker 1: to moving Forward UM, has been accused of withholding, possibly
Speaker 1: even destroying evidence related to this case. We've got Jim
Speaker 1: Collinson uh forty years old, the father of James UM
Speaker 1: compared getting information you know, I mean, think about it
Speaker 1: like your child has died under mysterious circumstances. They're not
Speaker 1: you know, you know your child. You don't understand how
Speaker 1: could they do this? Suicide is such a difficult thing
Speaker 1: in that way, and to not get any answers would
Speaker 1: just prolong that morning period. And you know, you you
Speaker 1: expect that if, if, if the Ministry has nothing to hide,
Speaker 1: they would be forthcoming with information about the case. But
Speaker 1: apparently it was just not to be. Jim Collinson Um again,
Speaker 1: the father of James, said getting information from the m
Speaker 1: o D was like getting blood from a stone. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's a quote from him saying the m o D
Speaker 1: wouldn't come forward and explain what happened to or some
Speaker 1: that night. Then three days after his funeral, I phoned
Speaker 1: up a senior official at Deep Cut and asked him
Speaker 1: how the investigation was going. He replied, one body, one gun,
Speaker 1: draw your own conclusion. Yikes. I mean, come on, just
Speaker 1: let's have a little bit of bedside manner at the
Speaker 1: very least. And that seemed to have been their attitude overall.
Speaker 1: James was just just a number. This was this case closed.
Speaker 1: You know, it's the same with the police. When they
Speaker 1: close a case or close a murder, they don't want
Speaker 1: to think about it ever again they have moved on.
Speaker 1: There's no empathy, there's no room for empathy in these organizations.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it seems uh not to be not to say
Speaker 1: that's the case for every officer, but it seems in general,
Speaker 1: this whole idea of emotionlessness is is a big part
Speaker 1: of the military and these kinds of organizations we've got
Speaker 1: another account for. I would just say that if a
Speaker 1: police officer dies, the investigation into that death, I would say,
Speaker 1: is far more rigorous than the death of a citizen
Speaker 1: would be, UM, just because of the resources, internal resources
Speaker 1: that would be going into finding out what happened to
Speaker 1: a fellow officer. And I think maybe what you're signaling
Speaker 1: here is that it feels as though if a member
Speaker 1: of the military, any military is killed or dead for
Speaker 1: any reason, um, outside of wartime, outside of active engagement,
Speaker 1: then it feels as though the most, the most strenuous
Speaker 1: things should be done, the most um intense steps should
Speaker 1: be taken to find out exactly what happened. And maybe
Speaker 1: it seems as though we're not seeing that and did
Speaker 1: not see that the banality of evil right most most
Speaker 1: uh you know, so with institutions of this size, fiction
Speaker 1: often gets it wrong. It's not, as it is so
Speaker 1: rarely the case that there is some sort of uh
Speaker 1: antagonistic super villain who thinks I am the bad guy
Speaker 1: and I am doing evil things. A lot of times,
Speaker 1: it's just a person with a very narrowly defined scope
Speaker 1: of responsibility. Uh. And these investigations can become normalized. I
Speaker 1: see it all the time on this show. It is
Speaker 1: disturbing how quickly things become normal. So if you were
Speaker 1: investigating certain circumstances of horrible things like deaths, day in
Speaker 1: day out, then what becomes the worst event in someone's
Speaker 1: entire life for other people becomes a Tuesday, you know.
Speaker 1: And and that's not right, but it's it's what happens.
Speaker 1: There's desensitization. The parents have been vocal about this for
Speaker 1: for decades. Uh. Does James is the father of Cheryl.
Speaker 1: James said, he he brought up, like the QC, he
Speaker 1: brought up the ongoing problems with the system we're just scribing.
Speaker 1: He actually said, we believe the central issue is not
Speaker 1: how Cheryl died, but why her death was not thoroughly
Speaker 1: investigated at the time. To your point, Matt, he said,
Speaker 1: any meaningful investigation into our daughter's death in nineteen was denied.
Speaker 1: The Army assumed her death was a suicide. Uh. And
Speaker 1: he says there's clear evidence to support that fact. Army
Speaker 1: documents that we have in our possession, referred to her
Speaker 1: tragic suicide on decept and that's the Army's quote, their
Speaker 1: tragic suicide on December fourteenth, nine. And that's one week
Speaker 1: before the coroner's court even convened an end quest, meaning
Speaker 1: the Army, before like an autopsy or a coroner's investigation occurred.
Speaker 1: The Army went ahead and just said it was self inflicted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, I mean we we again with suici EI.
Speaker 1: There's so many it's it's obviously really triggering subject for
Speaker 1: many people. Um there's a lot that that happens when
Speaker 1: something is ruled us to us side. So you know,
Speaker 1: for example, if if um uh, someone has an insurance
Speaker 1: policy on themselves and they are they can take their
Speaker 1: own lives, that's insurance policy doesn't pay out. Not to
Speaker 1: say there's any any of that's going into these decisions,
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying, is it's a big deal to
Speaker 1: rule something a suicide. It means something. Uh So to
Speaker 1: just flippidly do that and just say case closed, it
Speaker 1: just it feels very irresponsible, And it feels like they're
Speaker 1: just looking out for the optics of it and and
Speaker 1: and trying to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing as quickly
Speaker 1: as possible. Yeah, you know, there there's some stuff I
Speaker 1: found about Jeff Gray that I took personally, to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, UM and his parents were more explicit.
Speaker 1: But we kept finding more to this story. Every every
Speaker 1: string we pulled, every puzzle piece we interlocked, led to
Speaker 1: another puzzle piece, another string of what appears to be
Speaker 1: a tremendously occulted web of ongoing problems here, because, as
Speaker 1: James also said that he had on record, there were
Speaker 1: no less than five other attempted suicides at Deep Cut
Speaker 1: and they just work externally reported. And then you mentioned
Speaker 1: earlier the panorama, the panorama video from BBC that that
Speaker 1: appears to confirm some of this, right, Yeah, they they
Speaker 1: found a document um that lists uh, several additional suicide
Speaker 1: attempts unsuccessful suicide attempts. UM. I guess that's what's been
Speaker 1: attempt is uh. And it catalogs all of the various
Speaker 1: methods that were used by these cadets, including overdosing on
Speaker 1: um a, sena, mena fin or paracetamol. Isn't that that's
Speaker 1: what they call? It's the same thing, right, so they
Speaker 1: call it in the uk UM and also splitting their
Speaker 1: own wrists. But in this document there's no there's nothing
Speaker 1: that mentions any of the bullying, which I guess maybe
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be the appropriate document for that to be listed.
Speaker 1: But it just it feels like there's a disconnect here. Uh,
Speaker 1: this doesn't feel like something that is normal or should
Speaker 1: be accepted. Agreed, And we're gonna get more into the bullying.
Speaker 1: Uh as we continue on here what that means and
Speaker 1: and what it looks like today even or in the
Speaker 1: recent past. Um, But let's move on to Jeff Gray.
Speaker 1: His parents, as you said, Ben, have been extremely explicit
Speaker 1: in in their statements about their son's death. I have
Speaker 1: a quote here. We are of the opinion that there
Speaker 1: is a cover up surrounding Jeff's death, and one of
Speaker 1: the major reasons for that. There are a lot of
Speaker 1: major reasons for that, but I guess one of the
Speaker 1: most surface puzzling things. It's something we already talked about
Speaker 1: that Jeff was shot twice in the head. We proved
Speaker 1: it when the inquest was done into his death. UM.
Speaker 1: There is evidence suggesting that Jeff's body was moved after
Speaker 1: he was killed, and as we noted, before earlier in
Speaker 1: this episode, that there were footsteps heard running away from
Speaker 1: the fence in the area where Jeff's body was found,
Speaker 1: um that some intruders, some outside people were there that night,
Speaker 1: at least one they it seems like they may have
Speaker 1: waited over an hour to place Jeff's body in the
Speaker 1: area where it was originally found after he was killed elsewhere,
Speaker 1: and to put it, to put it plainly, the specific
Speaker 1: quote from the parents of Jeff Gray and their statement
Speaker 1: is is this, we feel that the army has tried
Speaker 1: to make us believe some fairy tale where Jeff shot
Speaker 1: himself twice, hid for an hour, climbed over a fence
Speaker 1: a couple of times, then laid down and died. And
Speaker 1: hearing it presented that way, um, hearing it presented that
Speaker 1: way cuts close because that, you know, um, that's what happened.
Speaker 1: Like that appears to be the bare bone circumstances of
Speaker 1: the sequence of events that occurred from the time he
Speaker 1: was alive to the time he was found dead. Now
Speaker 1: it's I know a lot of us in the crowd
Speaker 1: are especially long time listeners. When you've heard us discuss
Speaker 1: allegations of homicide, UH framed a suicide. You you already
Speaker 1: know this and we should acknowledge it. People can and have,
Speaker 1: and sadly, in the future probably still will commit suicide
Speaker 1: via firearm and be able to shoot themselves under some
Speaker 1: circumstances more than once, uh, in the head or chest.
Speaker 1: But it is it is rare, to say the least.
Speaker 1: We're going to examine more of this. We've alluded to
Speaker 1: a couple of things we're diving into here. After a
Speaker 1: word from our sponsors, give her back, Um, we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about another inquest that was performed
Speaker 1: much later. It was released June third, two thousand and sixteen,
Speaker 1: was performed by Brian Barker CBE again Queen's counsel. This
Speaker 1: one was a specific in question to the death of
Speaker 1: Cheryl James, and we want to talk about some of
Speaker 1: the underlying conditions that were happening there at Deep cut Um,
Speaker 1: conditions that perhaps set up some of the younger people there,
Speaker 1: because again we're talking about teenagers in a lot of
Speaker 1: this to young adults. Um, we're just gonna speak about
Speaker 1: the environment in which they were existing. So within this
Speaker 1: report it was noted that in the field Army, the
Speaker 1: usual ratio of corporals, two soldiers or you know, just
Speaker 1: higher higher commanding officers to the um to like privates
Speaker 1: and to lower ranking soldiers would generally be around one
Speaker 1: to eight to one to twelve. So one come er,
Speaker 1: twelve officers under that commander, one commander, eight officers under
Speaker 1: that commander. And sometimes and they call this in when uh,
Speaker 1: when a unit is holding or when it's a holding unit,
Speaker 1: so like a unit that's just kind of on standby. Essentially,
Speaker 1: it would be one commanding officer to twenty and generally
Speaker 1: maximum one to thirty would be appropriate. Um However, at
Speaker 1: deep cut, the ratio of a commanding officer to these
Speaker 1: lower ranking officers was rarely less than one to eighty
Speaker 1: and on occasions up to two hundred. So imagine that
Speaker 1: in a teacher student ratios, I think a good way
Speaker 1: to look at it. Imagine you can imagine those other
Speaker 1: ratios like one teacher to eight to twelve students. I mean,
Speaker 1: that would be amazing, That would be very closely learning,
Speaker 1: having a lot of one on one act interaction. One
Speaker 1: to twenty and thirty is probably about what you would
Speaker 1: see in a public school here in the United States,
Speaker 1: but one to eighty or two hundred is I just
Speaker 1: don't know how there's any real oversight there, and also
Speaker 1: like how there's justification for that, you know. It's like sure,
Speaker 1: you could say, well, I really like your analogy about schools,
Speaker 1: because I do think this is instruction, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's not like arts and crafts, but it absolutely is.
Speaker 1: It requires instruction and training and the ability to have
Speaker 1: a little bit of one on one time to some
Speaker 1: degree with individuals. And I know a lot of army
Speaker 1: exercises and drills happen on mass so maybe that doesn't apply,
Speaker 1: but it's still just seems egregiously out of proportion, especially
Speaker 1: when you consider the access to firearms that you're talking about,
Speaker 1: and like, you know, the the lack of oversight in
Speaker 1: that department. You know, well, din just just didn't even
Speaker 1: know what's going on at the barracks at any given time.
Speaker 1: And this is so this is a crucial point because
Speaker 1: we're a lot of what we're talking about is how
Speaker 1: these were initially report it and reports themselves. Investigations inherently
Speaker 1: require oversight and supervision, and that just wasn't occurring at
Speaker 1: the level it should have been occurring at these barracks.
Speaker 1: And it was not an isolated incident. It was not
Speaker 1: a one off bad Saturday when two people called out
Speaker 1: sick or something. This was ongoing, and it was ongoing
Speaker 1: for decades. UH. The environment there has been described by
Speaker 1: multiple accounts people who went through the training as dreadful,
Speaker 1: as brutal, as cruel, as horrific. Um. I mentioned earlier
Speaker 1: that the banality of evil here, which holds true, always
Speaker 1: tells us that very few people think of themselves as
Speaker 1: an antagonist. Right, Um, everybody's their own main character, everybody's
Speaker 1: the hero of the story. Why doesn't the rest of
Speaker 1: the world only loved me? I couldn't do anything wrong
Speaker 1: by reasons. But if there is a single human face
Speaker 1: we could put on this story as what most people
Speaker 1: would see as an antagonistic force, it would be one
Speaker 1: Sergeant Andrew Gavegan. Yeah, Gavigan comes up time and time again. Um.
Speaker 1: He he was. He testified in front of one of
Speaker 1: these inquests that took place a little bit later. But
Speaker 1: he is someone whose name constantly comes up among people
Speaker 1: that have passed through UH this facility. Um, and not
Speaker 1: in a positive way at all. In fact, Cheryl James
Speaker 1: Father in that panorama documentary. Um spoke of him in
Speaker 1: terms of, boy, what I like to be alone in
Speaker 1: a room with this guy? Um, I would do what
Speaker 1: any father would do. And the reason is there are
Speaker 1: a lot of widespread allegations that Uh, not only was
Speaker 1: Gavigan kind of the ring master of a lot of
Speaker 1: these systematized bullying tactics to dehumanize, allegedly dehumanized and humiliate.
Speaker 1: Uh kind of the idea of breaking down, you know,
Speaker 1: as a cadet and making them up stronger by breaking
Speaker 1: them or whatever, which you know, as we know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't always work like that. Uh. He is also accused
Speaker 1: of some sexual misconduct with Cheryl Um. The allegation was
Speaker 1: that he invited her to these barracks or I'm not
Speaker 1: invited if you're you're commanding officer. He ordered her to
Speaker 1: these UM barracks in the undercover of night and then
Speaker 1: allegedly made some sexual advances. He has denied this multiple times, UM,
Speaker 1: as he has characterized some of these bullying techniques as
Speaker 1: having been done quote in humor. So do with that
Speaker 1: what you will, Ben, You're the one who pointed that
Speaker 1: that line out to me, and I was shocked. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In eighteen Uh he denied the deep kind abuse. We're
Speaker 1: jumping around in time here, but I think the I
Speaker 1: want to emphasize just how recent this ongoing investigation is. Uh.
Speaker 1: He says some disturbing stuff in this inquest. One of
Speaker 1: the things he says that the local news in the
Speaker 1: UK latched onto is he did something that a lot
Speaker 1: of abusers do, which is gaslighting. Right. And this this
Speaker 1: happens anywhere. It's not just something that happens in romantic relationships.
Speaker 1: It happens at your job, it happens in your family,
Speaker 1: It happens all the time. The predators are out there. Um.
Speaker 1: What he did, which gonna tried and true tactic of
Speaker 1: abusers or people who have abusive tendencies, is he simultaneously
Speaker 1: admitted that he was abusive, there was doing abusive things
Speaker 1: while also diminishing and minimizing the valid claims of his victims,
Speaker 1: similar to like gas lighting in a way. Uh. He
Speaker 1: during this inquest, which is a legal affair, he said
Speaker 1: that he would refer to his outburst of temper by
Speaker 1: saying that was my twin brother. That was his joke
Speaker 1: about it. It wasn't me, it was by twin Uh.
Speaker 1: He told the people in the hearing at this inquest
Speaker 1: that that it was all a good humor. The twin
Speaker 1: brother happened very rarely and it was controlled. But that's
Speaker 1: the thing that been um. I can that's what shocked
Speaker 1: me and blew me away that he was so brazen
Speaker 1: about this in front of an official inquiry. UM, because
Speaker 1: it just confirms what the what these reports are about him.
Speaker 1: Um by many of these folks again who have passed
Speaker 1: through the deep cut barracks, um, this idea of his
Speaker 1: twin brother. Um. He was characterized by many of the
Speaker 1: folks that I saw in the in the panorama piece
Speaker 1: who you know knew him well, um, as being a
Speaker 1: split personality, as having this this true Jekyl and Hide
Speaker 1: kind of quality where he would just change on a
Speaker 1: dime into this other person. Uh. And the fact that
Speaker 1: he brought that up himself, I think is is very
Speaker 1: very talent and very interesting as to the sense of
Speaker 1: like untouchability, you know, being in a position of power
Speaker 1: like that, and how he felt. I just want to
Speaker 1: point out here that sergeant I don't know how to
Speaker 1: pronounce a big Gavigan, it feels. Remember the sergeant Gavigant
Speaker 1: was a private at one time. Remember that he probably
Speaker 1: went through something very very similar I'm imagining. No, I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to humanize him, absolutely not. But what I'm
Speaker 1: saying is he went through a system that probably did
Speaker 1: exactly what he is trying or was trying to do
Speaker 1: to the privates that he was then in charge of
Speaker 1: UM And to me, it feels like a system that
Speaker 1: would just continue, as we've seen in other systematic abuse situations,
Speaker 1: where it becomes a line of people doing what they
Speaker 1: know and what they've been trained essentially to do. I
Speaker 1: think that's a really good point, Matt. I was I
Speaker 1: was hoping, if you guys don't mind, can we talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about some of the allegations of some
Speaker 1: of the scenarios of systematic abuse and bullying, because I
Speaker 1: think we've sort of we've obviously hit on the fact
Speaker 1: that that this these allegations took place, but I don't
Speaker 1: know that we've we've really gone into any specifics outside
Speaker 1: of some of the sexual harassment. For anyone listening, especially
Speaker 1: if you are a survivor of abuse, or if you
Speaker 1: are having to deal with people like this in your
Speaker 1: day to day life, any level, we do want to
Speaker 1: give a disclaimer. We are going to be discussing some
Speaker 1: explicit things, so please be four warns. Um. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: there are multiple very specific allegations of violence of sexual abuse. UM.
Speaker 1: Bullying really is a misnomer here. I think abuse is
Speaker 1: a much more accurate term. Yeah. Some of them include
Speaker 1: things like hanging uh cadets out of windows by their ankles. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's an account that because of an infraction of some degree,
Speaker 1: whether or not keeping your locker need or or perhaps
Speaker 1: I think it was talking down or or talking back
Speaker 1: to a commanding officer, that a cadet was thrown out
Speaker 1: of a third story window. Um. There was an account
Speaker 1: of a trench being dug and not being dug deep enough,
Speaker 1: and uh the cadet being asked to lay down in
Speaker 1: it and then being dog piled on by commanding officers,
Speaker 1: one of which who stood on his back jumped on
Speaker 1: full force with two ft And finally an account of
Speaker 1: a of a male cadet being staked down the article
Speaker 1: in the sun first as being pegged down. I guess
Speaker 1: that just means tied down, you know, prone on a
Speaker 1: field with legs spread. And then uh land rover military
Speaker 1: vehicle being event very quickly towards him, uh between you know,
Speaker 1: with the tires driving between his leg becoming dangerously close
Speaker 1: to you know, hitting him in the genital area. So
Speaker 1: there's obviously some um, some pretty heinous things going on there.
Speaker 1: There were heinous things going on there at the Deep
Speaker 1: Cut Deep Cut barracks. Um. And who's to say, you
Speaker 1: know where these kinds of things are occurring in other
Speaker 1: places around the world where military training is being was
Speaker 1: taking place, or just in other places where there are
Speaker 1: young people learning. Uh, you know, we've seen allegations of
Speaker 1: all kinds of that type of abuse in colleges and
Speaker 1: fraternities across the world. Um. It's rough stuff. It's really
Speaker 1: rough stuff, and it has a deep psychological effects on
Speaker 1: the people who are experiencing it on both sides. Actually,
Speaker 1: so maybe this is a good time to to tell
Speaker 1: people what has happened since Yeah, since all of these
Speaker 1: events have occurred. Yeah, yeah, we've laid out a number
Speaker 1: of the continuing claims here. The military was investigating itself.
Speaker 1: It was criticized, and rightly, I mean, how could it
Speaker 1: be impartial? The Ministry of Defense at the very least
Speaker 1: denied valuable information when it was most needed. And um,
Speaker 1: Having waded through so much stuff on this case, I
Speaker 1: have to say it's pretty offensive to find that infamous
Speaker 1: lack of accountability phrase kept popping up. You know, the
Speaker 1: one mistakes were made. Note the beautiful, insidious structure of
Speaker 1: the passive voice there. Then someone made a mistake, says
Speaker 1: this kind of language, but not anyone specifically, and definitely
Speaker 1: not not me the person writing it. Don't make me
Speaker 1: responsible for the consequences of my actions. Uh. Look, there's
Speaker 1: another important thing I want to hit. So there's a
Speaker 1: ballistic expert named Ken Swan. He's independent, was working on
Speaker 1: behalf of surviving family members, and he is one of
Speaker 1: the reasons that the police have yet to release therefore
Speaker 1: subsequent investigations, because he wrote to them and said, look, opinions, opinions,
Speaker 1: emotions aside. I did the math. This is my area
Speaker 1: of expertise. It is highly unlikely that any of these
Speaker 1: four people committed suicide. He's there's an interview with the
Speaker 1: Telegraph where he walks through his efforts. He physically went
Speaker 1: to deep cut barracks, went to every position where these
Speaker 1: four people um encounter these these fatal gunshots, and attempted
Speaker 1: to reconstruct the wound patterns. What he found, if it
Speaker 1: is true, is damning. He said. We have used some
Speaker 1: of the best shots in the British Army in my tests,
Speaker 1: but none has been able to recreate the same pattern
Speaker 1: at the distances these suicides were supposed to have taken place.
Speaker 1: In the case of Sean Benton, the wounding pattern can
Speaker 1: only be achieved when firing at a range of fifteen feet.
Speaker 1: That does not point to suicide, and the styles on
Speaker 1: them just a bit in a quote I really appreciated,
Speaker 1: he says. There is always the possibility that I may
Speaker 1: be wrong, but I will believe that when someone can
Speaker 1: forensically prove that I am wrong. Otherwise I will stand
Speaker 1: by my findings. If that's not enough, there's another revelation.
Speaker 1: A female private who served at Deep Cut admitted to
Speaker 1: police in one of their investigations that she ordered a
Speaker 1: colleague to shoot at one of the four soldiers who
Speaker 1: are still alleged to have committed suicide. She she said
Speaker 1: that she told her colleague to fire at Private Sean
Speaker 1: Benton because she thought he had fired at her. That
Speaker 1: speaks to how lacks the firearm regulation was in general.
Speaker 1: There I believe in her account to the detectives. She says, yeah,
Speaker 1: I told him, I told you know, a colleague mind
Speaker 1: of fire at Benton, but I wanted him to hit
Speaker 1: the legs. Benton, of course, is the one who got
Speaker 1: shot five times in the chest. And it's bigger. This
Speaker 1: is one of the other important points that we found.
Speaker 1: This is bigger than deep Cut. Uh. There are multiple
Speaker 1: reports of suspicious deaths in the UK military, non combat deaths, right,
Speaker 1: so they're not in the field, they're not in a
Speaker 1: armed conflict with an enemy force. Uh. And multiple parents
Speaker 1: and loved ones who disagree with the official findings. And
Speaker 1: just like the parents of the Deep Cut four, these
Speaker 1: relatives are demanding answers, but they are often left unsatisfied
Speaker 1: with the results of these investigations. We found two other
Speaker 1: deaths that are indirectly linked to Deep Cut. Not saying
Speaker 1: this is all like some kind of um Peppe Sylvia situation,
Speaker 1: but these deaths were considered part of the Deep Cut
Speaker 1: four because they didn't occur on the premises. Yes. Private
Speaker 1: David Shipley, twenty years old from Barrow in Furnace, found
Speaker 1: unconscious and face down in an assault course pool in
Speaker 1: Germany on August seventeen, two thousand two, just days after
Speaker 1: he left from deep Cut. Um Private Alison Croft, twenty
Speaker 1: two from Bradford was found hanged at Dalton Barracks in Abington,
Speaker 1: Oxfordshire in October of two thousand two. And although Croft
Speaker 1: had no official connection with deep Cut, officers from the
Speaker 1: two barracks often socialized together. Not not to not to
Speaker 1: overstate the case as that being some kind of connection
Speaker 1: or applying this to some kind of suicide pact or something.
Speaker 1: It's just interesting. There's clearly more to the story than
Speaker 1: the official investigations have revealed that I think we can
Speaker 1: say with some degree of certainty. Yeah, And there are
Speaker 1: also other deaths within the military that should be looked
Speaker 1: at that aren't necessarily bullying, but perhaps would be considered
Speaker 1: extreme tactics of punishment that are doled out sometimes in
Speaker 1: these in these areas, these barracks, these facilities. There's one
Speaker 1: that you can look to if you'd like, a private
Speaker 1: named Gavin Williams who died after experiencing what is called
Speaker 1: beasting b e A S t I n G. Where essentially,
Speaker 1: as punishment you're made to exercise um beyond the extent
Speaker 1: of what any soldier would normally do or any trainee
Speaker 1: would normally do UM. And he died as a result
Speaker 1: of this. And we have to remember the point I
Speaker 1: don't think we hit here that I know all of
Speaker 1: our fellow listeners are thinking about during this exploration today.
Speaker 1: These are kids, these are these are teenagers. You know,
Speaker 1: they're they're putting an environment. Like you mentioned, Matt, that
Speaker 1: UM has a lot in common hormonally and socially with
Speaker 1: things like fraternities or college days. So there's partying right
Speaker 1: and and partying alone and and like everybody who's ever
Speaker 1: been that age, uh, I ask you you don't have
Speaker 1: to tell us about it, but I ask you to
Speaker 1: think back to all the dumb stuff you did as
Speaker 1: a kid. Uh? And does that mean does that mean
Speaker 1: that you should have died? It doesn't. And and I
Speaker 1: think you know, to that point about diving into UM
Speaker 1: the full extent of these people's personal lives, I think
Speaker 1: sometimes investigation no, you know what, why couch it? I
Speaker 1: know sometimes that investigations tend hand use that that information
Speaker 1: as a kind of posthumous victim blaming, which is reprehensible.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's unclean, but but it happens in multiple
Speaker 1: cases far beyond the Deep Cut for I'm I'm interested
Speaker 1: in hearing you guys ideas on this UM. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you think the UK and the US. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be unfair. The UK has a huge problem
Speaker 1: with their reports. We were talking about this a little
Speaker 1: bit off air. Uh. They have a habit of, like
Speaker 1: reports on child abuse rings have a series of inquest
Speaker 1: and very formal, official sounding language that lead nowhere, and
Speaker 1: the reports disappear and the evidence is gone and they
Speaker 1: hope that the news cycle moves on. Do you guys
Speaker 1: think that there will be revelations on this Deep Cut
Speaker 1: four case or do you think it's going to be,
Speaker 1: you know, like Operation you Turee or something can just
Speaker 1: consigned to history. I don't know. Well, if you think
Speaker 1: about the case of Eryl, she died in and there
Speaker 1: was still stuff coming out in UM, but there are
Speaker 1: these kinds of inquests that you're describing UM, where it's
Speaker 1: a deep background look at what was happening in her
Speaker 1: life up into the point when she allegedly committed suicide,
Speaker 1: looking at every minute detail of her personal life, the
Speaker 1: terrible things that had happened to her, the consequences of
Speaker 1: those things, how she dealt with them, how other people
Speaker 1: and her family dealt with them, her personal relationships. But
Speaker 1: to your point about uh, you know, essentially using that
Speaker 1: information to victim blame, which I would say it absolutely
Speaker 1: has been seen to function in that way in the past.
Speaker 1: I just wonder how you guys would try and prove
Speaker 1: that someone committed suicide or not without looking at their
Speaker 1: past of you know, possibly self harm, of suffering from depression,
Speaker 1: of their personal interpersonal relationships. I don't know how you would,
Speaker 1: at least after the fact, especially years after the fact,
Speaker 1: how you would be able to prove one way or
Speaker 1: the other if it was suicide if you didn't do that.
Speaker 1: Did we discuss bend the what you had mentioned afair
Speaker 1: about the five gunshot wounds to the chest, the justification
Speaker 1: for that that that's the one that blew me away,
Speaker 1: and we said we were going to come back to
Speaker 1: Sean and his suicide note um and and some of
Speaker 1: the weirdness surrounding that scenario. But wasn't it determined that
Speaker 1: it was an automatic blasts or something like that, that
Speaker 1: that the gun was an automatic mode and so it
Speaker 1: shot a spray of bullets. Adam, Yeah, that's correct. That
Speaker 1: was the official conclusion of UM one of the internal
Speaker 1: inquest or internal UM investigations. Yeah, and it's interesting because
Speaker 1: that story too, goes through a couple of different iterations
Speaker 1: when you read about it, where there's one version that
Speaker 1: says that he fired shots at another UH officer UM,
Speaker 1: and then that he was talked down, he was attempted
Speaker 1: to be talked down from like, you know, taking his
Speaker 1: own life, and then he did it in view of
Speaker 1: another officer and UH, it's it's a little like you said, then,
Speaker 1: reading these documents can be very little tricky. UM. So
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure if I was, if I'm interpreting
Speaker 1: this correctly, but that that's what I what I saw.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have had any other
Speaker 1: research materials about that case. Well, the only thing I
Speaker 1: would bring up here would be potential motive for covering
Speaker 1: up a homicide within an army facility like that, UM.
Speaker 1: And I think just it's worth a quick discussion here.
Speaker 1: Think about the pr blowback that would happen if soldiers
Speaker 1: under your care as a commanding officer, you've got let's
Speaker 1: say eighty of these UH, these lower ranking soldiers under
Speaker 1: your care, you find out that there was a firefight
Speaker 1: between a couple of your students. Essentially they're basically students. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's a physical firefight between your students and one of
Speaker 1: them died being shot five times. Would you, you know,
Speaker 1: report that officially, as in the students that I was
Speaker 1: meant to be looking after shot at each other and
Speaker 1: one of them killed another one, or would you try
Speaker 1: to make it look like a suicide. Um. I'm not
Speaker 1: not saying, um, that that's definitely what happened. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that that is what would happen. I'm just saying
Speaker 1: there is that is a I would say, a possible
Speaker 1: motivation to want to make something like that look like
Speaker 1: a suicide and officially become a suicide. Yeah. And and
Speaker 1: you know that another interesting thing about his cases that
Speaker 1: there was a suicide note that was found, but there
Speaker 1: there's some inconsistencies with that. And and according to the note,
Speaker 1: this is what the note said to sergeant gave again
Speaker 1: again that the kind of villainous figure that we've talked about. UM,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for what I'm doing, but I just can't
Speaker 1: accept being discharged. I'm too embarrassed to go home, and
Speaker 1: I don't want to be on city Street. And I
Speaker 1: don't want to have a factory job. I just wanted
Speaker 1: a career in the army. I know it's my fault
Speaker 1: for things I've done wrong. Only if I got a
Speaker 1: week's leave when I applied for things I could have
Speaker 1: been it could have been different. I could have calmed
Speaker 1: down instead of building problems up and then getting drunk
Speaker 1: and bursting into flames. It's terrible to read. So here
Speaker 1: we are, and now now we're we passed this to you,
Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realist. What do you think are these tragedies? Yes? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: What is there a cover up of foot uh? Do you,
Speaker 1: like the parents of of these of these victims believe
Speaker 1: that to be the case, or do you think it's
Speaker 1: um you know, it's just a matter of tragedy and
Speaker 1: perhaps well intentioned incompetence on the part of some investigators,
Speaker 1: who are you know, of course themselves human and therefore fallible.
Speaker 1: Or are these deaths the results of enormous stress leading
Speaker 1: to suicidal acts or some of these deaths homicide? If so,
Speaker 1: are these homicides in some way linked? And perhaps most importantly,
Speaker 1: what happens next? It's and and none of these have
Speaker 1: been solved to you know, universal satisfaction. UM, we would
Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts. You can find us on Facebook,
Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter, you can find us
Speaker 1: on the other one Instagram. Sorry, guys, we're conspiracy stuff
Speaker 1: on most of those conspiracy stuff showing Instagram. Just mentioning here.
Speaker 1: As we said at the top of the show, there
Speaker 1: is a ton more that you can dig into with
Speaker 1: each one of these people's deaths, and we recommend you
Speaker 1: you do that if if you feel so inclined, UM,
Speaker 1: and if you find something that you feel needs to
Speaker 1: be brought to our attention and the rest of us listening,
Speaker 1: please send it our way. One last important note here.
Speaker 1: It's something UM we endeavor to include at the end
Speaker 1: of any episode dealing with this content. Suicide is real.
Speaker 1: It is a real and serious thing. If you or
Speaker 1: a loved one are currently quarreling with or combating suicidal ideation,
Speaker 1: you are not alone. You are worth it. There are
Speaker 1: resources out there specifically for you. We like to recommend
Speaker 1: the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. It is available twenty four
Speaker 1: hours a day. Here is the number one eight hundred
Speaker 1: two seven three eight to five five. Again, that's one
Speaker 1: eight hundred to seven three eight to five. Thanks ben Um.
Speaker 1: I think that's that's really important resource to have. Uh,
Speaker 1: if anyone out there knows anybody that's going through any
Speaker 1: of this stuff, I would also just say just be
Speaker 1: a be a resource yourself, if you know. I mean
Speaker 1: it's not always a parent, but if you see morning signs,
Speaker 1: especially with someone that's very close to you, just check
Speaker 1: on people and make sure they're doing okay, and just
Speaker 1: just be try your best to be supportive and understand
Speaker 1: because sometimes people are suffering in silence and then they
Speaker 1: don't want anybody to know. But I think it's more
Speaker 1: meaningful than one might realize. Uh, you know when someone
Speaker 1: sees you and and really tries to connect in that way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The last thing I would put here is you You
Speaker 1: can also go to some meraitans dot org s A
Speaker 1: M A R I T A n s dot org
Speaker 1: where you can talk to somebody, uh three and six
Speaker 1: or five days a year, twenty four hours a day.
Speaker 1: If you're in need, call them please. And if you
Speaker 1: have thoughts on this episode or any of the topics
Speaker 1: covered it it we would like to hear from you.
Speaker 1: You don't have to use social media. If that's not
Speaker 1: your bag of badgers. We also have a number or
Speaker 1: where you can call us twenty four hours a day
Speaker 1: and leave a message, especially with information on this or
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