1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled deconds. Most importantly, you argue, you are here, 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: It's obvious to everybody listening today, whether or not you 10 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: have been in the military, whether or not you have 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: a friend or a loved one in the arms forces, 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: that life in any country's military can be brutal and 13 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: depending on where you enlist. Training itself, just the just 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: the training part, just when you're becoming a soldier, can 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: be especially taxing. It stretches individuals to their mental and 16 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: physical limits, and sometimes it pushes them beyond those limits, 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: with catastrophic consequences to follow. Today's episode is probably best 18 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: framed as an introduction to a story that many of 19 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: us in the US especially may not know. The reason 20 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: I'm stressing that this is an introduction is because there 21 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: is so much to this rabbit hole. This is a 22 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: warren of rabbit holes. And what we're going to do 23 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: in this episode is the same thing we do with 24 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: every show. We're going to give you the facts. We're 25 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: going to tell you where it gets crazy. But we 26 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: do want you to know that there is much much, 27 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: much more information out there. And uh, we talked a 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: little bit about this off air. We consider this an 29 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: ongoing case. We'll call it the Deep Cut. Four. Here 30 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: are the facts. This story takes place in London, just 31 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: outside of London, actually about an hour and a half 32 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: drive southwest of the city of London, which is a 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: place we've talked about before on this show. The city 34 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: of London exists within London or Greater London. Uh, that's 35 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: a whole episode in itself, but specifically, we're going to 36 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: the Deep Cut Barracks. It's known as Princess Royal Barracks 37 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: Deep Cut. It's near Camberly, Surrey in England, and before 38 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: it was also known as black Down Barracks. Yeah, in 39 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: the Royal engineers started to build uh several camps around 40 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: this facility. UM. It had originally been used as a 41 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: training ground up until the late eighteen hundreds, but it 42 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: didn't really have any formalized infrastructure until nineteen hundred UM. 43 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: The barracks went through a number of different changes, but 44 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: after the story that we're going to dive in today 45 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: took place, UM they were scheduled to be torn down 46 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: and today you can see these barracks as the home 47 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: to the Royal Logistic Core Museum UM, which is a 48 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: wing of the of the British Military UM and also 49 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: the Royal Logistics Core Band which is where they're based 50 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: in Rehearse and the Defense Logistics School is also there 51 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: and then twenty five training support regiments. Yeah, back in 52 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: twent um, as you were deluded to earlier there, the 53 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: UK government announced official plans to close down the operation 54 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: and to open the land upon which the compounds stands 55 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: for future housing developments. As we record right now, the 56 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: current estimates project the barracks will be completely deep commissioned 57 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: and become a thing of the past by twenty one. 58 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: That means of course that anything that any way that 59 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: the physical location could have assisted in the investigation will 60 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: be full stop gone by next year. What do we 61 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: mean when we say investigation, So in Deep Cut Barracks 62 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: between and two thousand and two young trainees began dying 63 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: under what we would we would like the most diplomatic 64 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: way to put it is mysterious circumstances. They all died 65 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: from gunshot wounds, and they were all privates, Jeff Gray, Cheryl, 66 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: James Sean Benton, and James Collinson. Their deaths were all 67 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: ruled suicides by the military, despite strong and continuing objections 68 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: from friends, family members, some government officials, and numerous experts. 69 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: We're talking, you know, well journalists as well, but we're 70 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: also talking pathologists, ballistics experts, corners and so on. So 71 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: as early as two thousand and two, there were calls 72 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: for an inquiry, and then um, you know, one of 73 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: the big problems, the military was investigating itself, and there 74 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: were later police investigations along with reviews of army training procedures. 75 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: And then two years later, in two thousand four, the 76 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: government announced that a review of the situation occurring at 77 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: Deep Cut concluded that the deaths of these four privates 78 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: were probably again here we go, probably self inflicted. It's 79 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: it's a review that you can read right now. It 80 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: was conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. It's available online. Uh, 81 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: it's really in depth, very very in depth. One thing 82 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: we found in researching this episode is that the new 83 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: risk inquiries that have occurred since the time of these 84 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: deaths are so filled with information it becomes a bit 85 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: difficult to navigate them. But we assure you that it 86 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: is worth your time. Uh. This specific one, performed by 87 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: Nicholas Blake QC, focused on the problems that were occurring 88 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: within the system itself, the organization of the military and 89 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: you know, really just the situation at Deep Cut itself 90 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: with regards to supervision and what the you know, the 91 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: trainees were doing, how they were looked after, and what 92 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: they had access to. And I want to add here, uh, 93 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: I have spent a lot of time reading some very 94 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, very important but very dry reports, and British 95 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: legal writing is a different language. I think we were 96 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,119 Speaker 1: talking off air and I was saying, British legal writing 97 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: warps your mind. But the way it would be written 98 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: in your report like this would be something more like 99 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: and in depth analysis us of what may accurately be 100 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: described as the overall linguistic approach to the articulation of 101 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: concepts in the British legal system, conducted by Ben Bull 102 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: and PC via Stuff they don't want you to know. 103 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: Subcommittee to I Heart Media finds that numerous individuals have 104 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: encountered circumstances both delatorious and circuitous, and they're going forward 105 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: cognitive function a circumstance they traced to that which could 106 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: also be called British legal writing c n XC appendix 107 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: for at all, Like this is this written? I feel 108 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: like this is written. You know. I don't want to 109 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: accuse people of trying to make it um illegible for 110 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: the average person, but it's I think they shot themselves 111 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: in the foot if they were going for accuracy. Well, 112 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: I mean we've read contracts, you know, and and we 113 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: we have legal documents that come across our inboxes for 114 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: various work things, and they're written pretty pedantic, hard to 115 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: understand language that seems a little pointed at times where 116 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: it's obviously meant to be. That's why you gotta hire 117 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: a lawyer, because you gotta have someone who in the 118 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: club who can like decipher this for the lay person. 119 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: This is entirely the next level of that. UM I 120 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: would I would categorize that writing as maximum formality. Yeah, 121 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: And speaking of maximum formality, I have to say, like 122 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: for part of the research that I did into this topic. 123 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: I watched this great BBC Panorama documentary they've done covered 124 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: a lot of interesting stuff over the years, like they 125 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: did want on Scientology, that quite enjoyed, and it's just 126 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: a great series. It's been around for a long time. 127 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: But you know, we're talking about one particular barracks. We're 128 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: also talking about the idea of systematic abuse, which is 129 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: obviously very poignant right now with the stuff we're going 130 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: through in our history as a country and as a 131 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: as a human race. But we're not necessarily trying to 132 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: damn the entire British military here. We are looking at 133 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: a specific case, and the British military will deny that 134 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: these things are systematic and that they do try to 135 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: root out any quote unquote bad actors in the system. Um. 136 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: But you know, for anyone who has certain in the military, 137 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: I know it can feel when people who have not 138 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: certain in the military are criticizing these structures that it 139 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: can feel a little bit like, you know, how where 140 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: where do you get off or something? But I I 141 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: feel like the there the researches here, the data is here. Um, 142 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: maybe not enough to apply it to the whole system, 143 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: but it sure makes you think, and I think now 144 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: is a great time to to talk about these these deaths. 145 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: So let's jump back to that two thousand four review 146 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: conducted by Nicholas Blake QC. Within it, there are a 147 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: lot of recommendations about what could be done better, perhaps, 148 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: but again it's focused squarely on the system itself and 149 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: the way the military is organized. UH. If you look 150 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: deeply into it, it shows that these four deaths, which 151 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: again the report characterizes as self inflicted UH or suicide, 152 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: it does say that many have occurred due to a 153 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: number of dangerous contributing factors at specifically Deep Cut barracks. Yeah, 154 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: there are things like you'll see these observations and then 155 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: you'll also see UM, if you if you fast forward 156 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: to you know, page three hundred and forty or so, 157 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: you'll see things. You'll see recommendations for how these could 158 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: be fixed. UH. The problems, according to the QCs report, 159 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: QC stands for Queen's Counsel. Think of it like a 160 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: super lawyer. The problems are things like lack of control 161 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: over access to firearms in the barracks. They were very 162 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: loose with that poor supervision, which I think we have 163 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: specifics on later in the show, poor accommodation, lack of 164 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: discipline and prevalent like Lord of the Fly style bullying, 165 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: unofficial punishments, sexual harassment and abuse, running rampant no real 166 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: complaint mechanism, which is something we see in a lot 167 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: of organizations, honestly and low quality instructors. The review, as 168 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 1: you might imagine, did not satisfy the parents and loved 169 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,359 Speaker 1: ones of these four dead trainees, so the police conducted 170 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: for other inquiries for subsequent investigations. These have never been 171 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: made public. They're there somewhere unless the evidence was destroyed, 172 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: which is a possibility, but they've never been made public. 173 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: And these parents believe their children did not die from suicide. 174 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: They believe their children were murdered and that the UK 175 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: government was and is actively covering it up. So why 176 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: did they think that? We'll tell you after we're from 177 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. We mentioned the 178 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: names here, but um, let's let's explore the specific details 179 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: of these these deaths. And also these are the four 180 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: known deaths. That doesn't mean there aren't more. So first 181 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: we have Jeff Gray, who's from London, seventeen years old. 182 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: Um he was found dead with two gunshot wounds to 183 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: the head on September seven in teens two thousand one. 184 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: It was officially internally ruled like within the military organization, 185 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: ruled a suicide. He was on guard duty. And this 186 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: is the thing. We talked about this a little bit 187 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: off air, and Matt was kind of telling Paul about 188 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: the story. Uh, this was a very common kind of well, 189 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it like a chore or like a duty, 190 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: like a thing that everyone was expected to do and 191 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: take turns. They were guarding in these wooded areas, the 192 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 1: outskirts of the barracks. Uh, all night long, very sleep deprived. Um, 193 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: and it's something that everyone was expected to do. He 194 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: was on guard duty. He had left his group to 195 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: perform a maneuver they call prowler patrol, where you go 196 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: on your own around the outskirts of the you know, 197 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: just basically like, yeah, it's the kind of thing you 198 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: see in like war movies where someone you know standing 199 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: post and then every so often they go and walk 200 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: around and make their rounds to make sure no one's 201 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: lurking in the bushes or anything. Uh So he did that. 202 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: Anecdotal evidence that we've found suggests that someone else. It's 203 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: entirely likely, uh, in fact probable, that someone else fired 204 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: the shots that ended Jeff's life. Um. There are four 205 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: witnesses that have testified to seeing a figure running from 206 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: the place where Private Gray's body was found. Um, we've 207 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: also found evidence, um in the research that suggests that 208 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: someone moved his body. Yeah, and and we're gonna talk 209 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: more specifics about this stuff as we go on. For now, 210 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: we're just gonna tell you the basic details of of 211 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: these individuals. Another young soldier who died was named James Collinson. 212 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: He was for Perth. He was also seventeen, like Jeff. 213 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: He died on March two from a single gunshot wound 214 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: to his head while he was on guard duty. His 215 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: body was found near a perimeter fence there at the facility. 216 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: And it just should be noted here that several of 217 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: the areas of Deep Cup Barracks have these very large 218 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:12,479 Speaker 1: perimeter fences where the guard duty essentially was was performed 219 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: near nearer these fences. Then there's the third case. We're 220 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: jumping around a little bit in time here, but the 221 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: third case is Cheryl James. She's eighteen, she was from 222 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: Land Gulf Land and Wales. And she was found dead 223 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: from a single gunshot wound to the head on November. 224 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: Like those other two cases we've mentioned, she was on 225 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: guard duty. Her body was found in the woods nearby 226 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: her abandoned post. Yeah, and and Cheryl allegedly was the 227 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: target of widespread sexual harassment by commanding officers UM, which 228 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: is a culture that we we've seen many many accounts 229 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: of being kind of pervasive within Deep cut UM, whether 230 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: just in passing or potentially as a tool of control UM. 231 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: There are various accounts of this. UH, people denying these allegations, 232 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: but I just I think it's important to mention that 233 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: there's a lot of UH discussion about these things being 234 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: very real by folks who have passed through this facility 235 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: over the years. You know, I would also say, each 236 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: one of these individuals is their own person. They were 237 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: the own protagonists in their story, as we mentioned on 238 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: this show a lot, and in some of these inquiries, 239 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: the deep background on on these folks. You know, there 240 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: are complications in every person's life and that's you know, 241 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: one of the major things that was looked at in 242 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: these inquiries. So we we again I am stressing we 243 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: are just giving you the absolute top down view at 244 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: this moment on these people. Yeah. Yeah. The last of 245 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: the deep cut four by which we mean the acknowledged 246 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: deaths in this ongoing to investigation was Sean Benton. Sean 247 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: was twenty years old. He was a local is from Hastings, 248 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: East Sussex. Benton died from five gunshot wounds to the 249 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: chest after he was also on a guard duty assignment. 250 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: After he was also on patrol of the perimeter, and 251 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: he was, like some of the other cases, on an 252 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: unauthorized solo patrol that's occurred on June nine. As we mentioned, 253 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: military the military Internal Investigation quickly and in their mind 254 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: definitively said that all four had shot themselves with their 255 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: own rifles while on guard duty, although the coroner at 256 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: the time recorded a verdict of suicide in only one case. Yeah, 257 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: and just just to really quick add a detail to Sean, 258 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: he is um I believe correct me if I'm wrong, guys, 259 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: But the only one where we actually have a detailed 260 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: suicide note that he left behind. There's an article, uh 261 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: that it's on the Daily Mail, which you know, I 262 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: know it's a little bit of a kind of take 263 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: it with a grain of salt of times. But this 264 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: is a document that they published that they got ahold of. 265 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: It was this, uh, this note where he claimed that 266 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: he he was being discharged from the army and that 267 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: he couldn't cope with returning to city street life, that 268 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: all he ever wanted as a career in the army. Um. 269 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: And we'll come back to this. And there's definitely this is, 270 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: in my opinion, by far, one of the more unusual 271 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: cases of the of the four here. But Sean was 272 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: characterizes having had some history of of psychological uh problems, um, 273 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: and potentially a history of depression. Um. But we'll we'll 274 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: revisit that a little bit. And yet he ended up 275 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: with five gunshot wounds to the chest. Right. But also 276 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,959 Speaker 1: we we do have we do have what is being 277 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: referred to as a suicide note from him, but there's 278 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: some problems with that too. Yeah. And each of these, 279 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: each of these casesly becomes, i think, uh, its own separate, 280 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: distinct morass of conflicting information. Uh. And perhaps the one 281 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: thing they have in common is an active cover up. 282 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: But uh, it's it's not our jump to it's not 283 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: our job to tell you that we just want to 284 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: give you the facts of the matter. While while these 285 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: events occurred decades ago, right, the multiple reports all indicate that, 286 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: regardless of how these young privates died, Deep Cut itself 287 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: was in the midst of a desperate and quiet crisis. UM. 288 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: We have investigative journalists like Brian Cathcart who have found 289 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: that the institution routinely exposed trainees to bullying, sex and 290 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: flagrant like ridiculous disregard for rules relating to firearms like 291 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: even more UM lack of daisical than a bunch of 292 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: buddies who just get shotguns and drinking beer and shooting 293 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: at cans with their friends. It was bad. Additionally, the 294 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: Ministry of Defense or m O D as will refer 295 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: to moving Forward UM, has been accused of withholding, possibly 296 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: even destroying evidence related to this case. We've got Jim 297 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: Collinson uh forty years old, the father of James UM 298 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: compared getting information you know, I mean, think about it 299 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: like your child has died under mysterious circumstances. They're not 300 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: you know, you know your child. You don't understand how 301 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: could they do this? Suicide is such a difficult thing 302 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: in that way, and to not get any answers would 303 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: just prolong that morning period. And you know, you you 304 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: expect that if, if, if the Ministry has nothing to hide, 305 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: they would be forthcoming with information about the case. But 306 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: apparently it was just not to be. Jim Collinson Um again, 307 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: the father of James, said getting information from the m 308 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: o D was like getting blood from a stone. Uh. 309 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: There's a quote from him saying the m o D 310 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't come forward and explain what happened to or some 311 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: that night. Then three days after his funeral, I phoned 312 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: up a senior official at Deep Cut and asked him 313 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: how the investigation was going. He replied, one body, one gun, 314 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: draw your own conclusion. Yikes. I mean, come on, just 315 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: let's have a little bit of bedside manner at the 316 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: very least. And that seemed to have been their attitude overall. 317 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: James was just just a number. This was this case closed. 318 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: You know, it's the same with the police. When they 319 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: close a case or close a murder, they don't want 320 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 1: to think about it ever again they have moved on. 321 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: There's no empathy, there's no room for empathy in these organizations. 322 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: Sometimes it seems uh not to be not to say 323 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: that's the case for every officer, but it seems in general, 324 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: this whole idea of emotionlessness is is a big part 325 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: of the military and these kinds of organizations we've got 326 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: another account for. I would just say that if a 327 00:20:54,800 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: police officer dies, the investigation into that death, I would say, 328 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: is far more rigorous than the death of a citizen 329 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: would be, UM, just because of the resources, internal resources 330 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: that would be going into finding out what happened to 331 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: a fellow officer. And I think maybe what you're signaling 332 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: here is that it feels as though if a member 333 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: of the military, any military is killed or dead for 334 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: any reason, um, outside of wartime, outside of active engagement, 335 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: then it feels as though the most, the most strenuous 336 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: things should be done, the most um intense steps should 337 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: be taken to find out exactly what happened. And maybe 338 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: it seems as though we're not seeing that and did 339 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: not see that the banality of evil right most most 340 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: uh you know, so with institutions of this size, fiction 341 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: often gets it wrong. It's not, as it is so 342 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,719 Speaker 1: rarely the case that there is some sort of uh 343 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: antagonistic super villain who thinks I am the bad guy 344 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: and I am doing evil things. A lot of times, 345 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: it's just a person with a very narrowly defined scope 346 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: of responsibility. Uh. And these investigations can become normalized. I 347 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: see it all the time on this show. It is 348 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: disturbing how quickly things become normal. So if you were 349 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: investigating certain circumstances of horrible things like deaths, day in 350 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: day out, then what becomes the worst event in someone's 351 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: entire life for other people becomes a Tuesday, you know. 352 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: And and that's not right, but it's it's what happens. 353 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: There's desensitization. The parents have been vocal about this for 354 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: for decades. Uh. Does James is the father of Cheryl. 355 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: James said, he he brought up, like the QC, he 356 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: brought up the ongoing problems with the system we're just scribing. 357 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: He actually said, we believe the central issue is not 358 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: how Cheryl died, but why her death was not thoroughly 359 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: investigated at the time. To your point, Matt, he said, 360 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: any meaningful investigation into our daughter's death in nineteen was denied. 361 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: The Army assumed her death was a suicide. Uh. And 362 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: he says there's clear evidence to support that fact. Army 363 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: documents that we have in our possession, referred to her 364 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: tragic suicide on decept and that's the Army's quote, their 365 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: tragic suicide on December fourteenth, nine. And that's one week 366 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: before the coroner's court even convened an end quest, meaning 367 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: the Army, before like an autopsy or a coroner's investigation occurred. 368 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: The Army went ahead and just said it was self inflicted. Yeah, 369 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: and you know, I mean we we again with suici EI. 370 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: There's so many it's it's obviously really triggering subject for 371 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: many people. Um there's a lot that that happens when 372 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,719 Speaker 1: something is ruled us to us side. So you know, 373 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: for example, if if um uh, someone has an insurance 374 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: policy on themselves and they are they can take their 375 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: own lives, that's insurance policy doesn't pay out. Not to 376 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: say there's any any of that's going into these decisions, 377 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: but I'm just saying, is it's a big deal to 378 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: rule something a suicide. It means something. Uh So to 379 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: just flippidly do that and just say case closed, it 380 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: just it feels very irresponsible, And it feels like they're 381 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: just looking out for the optics of it and and 382 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: and trying to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing as quickly 383 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: as possible. Yeah, you know, there there's some stuff I 384 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: found about Jeff Gray that I took personally, to be 385 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: honest with you, UM and his parents were more explicit. 386 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: But we kept finding more to this story. Every every 387 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: string we pulled, every puzzle piece we interlocked, led to 388 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: another puzzle piece, another string of what appears to be 389 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: a tremendously occulted web of ongoing problems here, because, as 390 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: James also said that he had on record, there were 391 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: no less than five other attempted suicides at Deep Cut 392 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: and they just work externally reported. And then you mentioned 393 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: earlier the panorama, the panorama video from BBC that that 394 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: appears to confirm some of this, right, Yeah, they they 395 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: found a document um that lists uh, several additional suicide 396 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: attempts unsuccessful suicide attempts. UM. I guess that's what's been 397 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: attempt is uh. And it catalogs all of the various 398 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: methods that were used by these cadets, including overdosing on 399 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: um a, sena, mena fin or paracetamol. Isn't that that's 400 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: what they call? It's the same thing, right, so they 401 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: call it in the uk UM and also splitting their 402 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: own wrists. But in this document there's no there's nothing 403 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: that mentions any of the bullying, which I guess maybe 404 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be the appropriate document for that to be listed. 405 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: But it just it feels like there's a disconnect here. Uh, 406 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: this doesn't feel like something that is normal or should 407 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: be accepted. Agreed, And we're gonna get more into the bullying. 408 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: Uh as we continue on here what that means and 409 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: and what it looks like today even or in the 410 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: recent past. Um, But let's move on to Jeff Gray. 411 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: His parents, as you said, Ben, have been extremely explicit 412 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: in in their statements about their son's death. I have 413 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: a quote here. We are of the opinion that there 414 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: is a cover up surrounding Jeff's death, and one of 415 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: the major reasons for that. There are a lot of 416 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: major reasons for that, but I guess one of the 417 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: most surface puzzling things. It's something we already talked about 418 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: that Jeff was shot twice in the head. We proved 419 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: it when the inquest was done into his death. UM. 420 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: There is evidence suggesting that Jeff's body was moved after 421 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: he was killed, and as we noted, before earlier in 422 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: this episode, that there were footsteps heard running away from 423 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: the fence in the area where Jeff's body was found, 424 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: um that some intruders, some outside people were there that night, 425 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: at least one they it seems like they may have 426 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: waited over an hour to place Jeff's body in the 427 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: area where it was originally found after he was killed elsewhere, 428 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: and to put it, to put it plainly, the specific 429 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: quote from the parents of Jeff Gray and their statement 430 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: is is this, we feel that the army has tried 431 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: to make us believe some fairy tale where Jeff shot 432 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: himself twice, hid for an hour, climbed over a fence 433 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: a couple of times, then laid down and died. And 434 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: hearing it presented that way, um, hearing it presented that 435 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: way cuts close because that, you know, um, that's what happened. 436 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: Like that appears to be the bare bone circumstances of 437 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: the sequence of events that occurred from the time he 438 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: was alive to the time he was found dead. Now 439 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: it's I know a lot of us in the crowd 440 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: are especially long time listeners. When you've heard us discuss 441 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 1: allegations of homicide, UH framed a suicide. You you already 442 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: know this and we should acknowledge it. People can and have, 443 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: and sadly, in the future probably still will commit suicide 444 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: via firearm and be able to shoot themselves under some 445 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: circumstances more than once, uh, in the head or chest. 446 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: But it is it is rare, to say the least. 447 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: We're going to examine more of this. We've alluded to 448 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: a couple of things we're diving into here. After a 449 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: word from our sponsors, give her back, Um, we're gonna 450 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about another inquest that was performed 451 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: much later. It was released June third, two thousand and sixteen, 452 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: was performed by Brian Barker CBE again Queen's counsel. This 453 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: one was a specific in question to the death of 454 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: Cheryl James, and we want to talk about some of 455 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: the underlying conditions that were happening there at Deep cut Um, 456 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: conditions that perhaps set up some of the younger people there, 457 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: because again we're talking about teenagers in a lot of 458 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: this to young adults. Um, we're just gonna speak about 459 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: the environment in which they were existing. So within this 460 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: report it was noted that in the field Army, the 461 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: usual ratio of corporals, two soldiers or you know, just 462 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: higher higher commanding officers to the um to like privates 463 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: and to lower ranking soldiers would generally be around one 464 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: to eight to one to twelve. So one come er, 465 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: twelve officers under that commander, one commander, eight officers under 466 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,959 Speaker 1: that commander. And sometimes and they call this in when uh, 467 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: when a unit is holding or when it's a holding unit, 468 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: so like a unit that's just kind of on standby. Essentially, 469 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: it would be one commanding officer to twenty and generally 470 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: maximum one to thirty would be appropriate. Um However, at 471 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: deep cut, the ratio of a commanding officer to these 472 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: lower ranking officers was rarely less than one to eighty 473 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: and on occasions up to two hundred. So imagine that 474 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: in a teacher student ratios, I think a good way 475 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: to look at it. Imagine you can imagine those other 476 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: ratios like one teacher to eight to twelve students. I mean, 477 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: that would be amazing, That would be very closely learning, 478 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: having a lot of one on one act interaction. One 479 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: to twenty and thirty is probably about what you would 480 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: see in a public school here in the United States, 481 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: but one to eighty or two hundred is I just 482 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: don't know how there's any real oversight there, and also 483 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: like how there's justification for that, you know. It's like sure, 484 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 1: you could say, well, I really like your analogy about schools, 485 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: because I do think this is instruction, you know, I mean, 486 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: it's not like arts and crafts, but it absolutely is. 487 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: It requires instruction and training and the ability to have 488 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: a little bit of one on one time to some 489 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: degree with individuals. And I know a lot of army 490 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: exercises and drills happen on mass so maybe that doesn't apply, 491 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,479 Speaker 1: but it's still just seems egregiously out of proportion, especially 492 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: when you consider the access to firearms that you're talking about, 493 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: and like, you know, the the lack of oversight in 494 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: that department. You know, well, din just just didn't even 495 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: know what's going on at the barracks at any given time. 496 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: And this is so this is a crucial point because 497 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: we're a lot of what we're talking about is how 498 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: these were initially report it and reports themselves. Investigations inherently 499 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,479 Speaker 1: require oversight and supervision, and that just wasn't occurring at 500 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: the level it should have been occurring at these barracks. 501 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: And it was not an isolated incident. It was not 502 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: a one off bad Saturday when two people called out 503 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: sick or something. This was ongoing, and it was ongoing 504 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: for decades. UH. The environment there has been described by 505 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: multiple accounts people who went through the training as dreadful, 506 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: as brutal, as cruel, as horrific. Um. I mentioned earlier 507 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: that the banality of evil here, which holds true, always 508 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: tells us that very few people think of themselves as 509 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: an antagonist. Right, Um, everybody's their own main character, everybody's 510 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: the hero of the story. Why doesn't the rest of 511 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: the world only loved me? I couldn't do anything wrong 512 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: by reasons. But if there is a single human face 513 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: we could put on this story as what most people 514 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: would see as an antagonistic force, it would be one 515 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: Sergeant Andrew Gavegan. Yeah, Gavigan comes up time and time again. Um. 516 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: He he was. He testified in front of one of 517 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: these inquests that took place a little bit later. But 518 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: he is someone whose name constantly comes up among people 519 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: that have passed through UH this facility. Um, and not 520 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: in a positive way at all. In fact, Cheryl James 521 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: Father in that panorama documentary. Um spoke of him in 522 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: terms of, boy, what I like to be alone in 523 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: a room with this guy? Um, I would do what 524 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: any father would do. And the reason is there are 525 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: a lot of widespread allegations that Uh, not only was 526 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: Gavigan kind of the ring master of a lot of 527 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: these systematized bullying tactics to dehumanize, allegedly dehumanized and humiliate. 528 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: Uh kind of the idea of breaking down, you know, 529 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: as a cadet and making them up stronger by breaking 530 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: them or whatever, which you know, as we know, it 531 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: doesn't always work like that. Uh. He is also accused 532 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: of some sexual misconduct with Cheryl Um. The allegation was 533 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 1: that he invited her to these barracks or I'm not 534 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: invited if you're you're commanding officer. He ordered her to 535 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: these UM barracks in the undercover of night and then 536 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 1: allegedly made some sexual advances. He has denied this multiple times, UM, 537 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 1: as he has characterized some of these bullying techniques as 538 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: having been done quote in humor. So do with that 539 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: what you will, Ben, You're the one who pointed that 540 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: that line out to me, and I was shocked. Yeah. 541 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: In eighteen Uh he denied the deep kind abuse. We're 542 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: jumping around in time here, but I think the I 543 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: want to emphasize just how recent this ongoing investigation is. Uh. 544 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: He says some disturbing stuff in this inquest. One of 545 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: the things he says that the local news in the 546 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: UK latched onto is he did something that a lot 547 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: of abusers do, which is gaslighting. Right. And this this 548 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: happens anywhere. It's not just something that happens in romantic relationships. 549 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: It happens at your job, it happens in your family, 550 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: It happens all the time. The predators are out there. Um. 551 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: What he did, which gonna tried and true tactic of 552 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: abusers or people who have abusive tendencies, is he simultaneously 553 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: admitted that he was abusive, there was doing abusive things 554 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: while also diminishing and minimizing the valid claims of his victims, 555 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: similar to like gas lighting in a way. Uh. He 556 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: during this inquest, which is a legal affair, he said 557 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: that he would refer to his outburst of temper by 558 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: saying that was my twin brother. That was his joke 559 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: about it. It wasn't me, it was by twin Uh. 560 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: He told the people in the hearing at this inquest 561 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: that that it was all a good humor. The twin 562 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: brother happened very rarely and it was controlled. But that's 563 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: the thing that been um. I can that's what shocked 564 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: me and blew me away that he was so brazen 565 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: about this in front of an official inquiry. UM, because 566 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: it just confirms what the what these reports are about him. 567 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: Um by many of these folks again who have passed 568 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: through the deep cut barracks, um, this idea of his 569 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: twin brother. Um. He was characterized by many of the 570 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: folks that I saw in the in the panorama piece 571 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: who you know knew him well, um, as being a 572 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 1: split personality, as having this this true Jekyl and Hide 573 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: kind of quality where he would just change on a 574 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: dime into this other person. Uh. And the fact that 575 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: he brought that up himself, I think is is very 576 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: very talent and very interesting as to the sense of 577 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: like untouchability, you know, being in a position of power 578 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: like that, and how he felt. I just want to 579 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: point out here that sergeant I don't know how to 580 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: pronounce a big Gavigan, it feels. Remember the sergeant Gavigant 581 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: was a private at one time. Remember that he probably 582 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: went through something very very similar I'm imagining. No, I'm 583 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: not trying to humanize him, absolutely not. But what I'm 584 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,879 Speaker 1: saying is he went through a system that probably did 585 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: exactly what he is trying or was trying to do 586 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 1: to the privates that he was then in charge of 587 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: UM And to me, it feels like a system that 588 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: would just continue, as we've seen in other systematic abuse situations, 589 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: where it becomes a line of people doing what they 590 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: know and what they've been trained essentially to do. I 591 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: think that's a really good point, Matt. I was I 592 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: was hoping, if you guys don't mind, can we talk 593 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about some of the allegations of some 594 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: of the scenarios of systematic abuse and bullying, because I 595 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: think we've sort of we've obviously hit on the fact 596 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: that that this these allegations took place, but I don't 597 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: know that we've we've really gone into any specifics outside 598 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 1: of some of the sexual harassment. For anyone listening, especially 599 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: if you are a survivor of abuse, or if you 600 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: are having to deal with people like this in your 601 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: day to day life, any level, we do want to 602 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: give a disclaimer. We are going to be discussing some 603 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: explicit things, so please be four warns. Um. Yeah, we 604 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: there are multiple very specific allegations of violence of sexual abuse. UM. 605 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: Bullying really is a misnomer here. I think abuse is 606 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: a much more accurate term. Yeah. Some of them include 607 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: things like hanging uh cadets out of windows by their ankles. Uh. 608 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: There's an account that because of an infraction of some degree, 609 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: whether or not keeping your locker need or or perhaps 610 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 1: I think it was talking down or or talking back 611 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 1: to a commanding officer, that a cadet was thrown out 612 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: of a third story window. Um. There was an account 613 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: of a trench being dug and not being dug deep enough, 614 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: and uh the cadet being asked to lay down in 615 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: it and then being dog piled on by commanding officers, 616 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: one of which who stood on his back jumped on 617 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: full force with two ft And finally an account of 618 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: a of a male cadet being staked down the article 619 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 1: in the sun first as being pegged down. I guess 620 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: that just means tied down, you know, prone on a 621 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: field with legs spread. And then uh land rover military 622 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: vehicle being event very quickly towards him, uh between you know, 623 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: with the tires driving between his leg becoming dangerously close 624 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: to you know, hitting him in the genital area. So 625 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: there's obviously some um, some pretty heinous things going on there. 626 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: There were heinous things going on there at the Deep 627 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: Cut Deep Cut barracks. Um. And who's to say, you 628 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: know where these kinds of things are occurring in other 629 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: places around the world where military training is being was 630 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: taking place, or just in other places where there are 631 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: young people learning. Uh, you know, we've seen allegations of 632 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: all kinds of that type of abuse in colleges and 633 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: fraternities across the world. Um. It's rough stuff. It's really 634 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: rough stuff, and it has a deep psychological effects on 635 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: the people who are experiencing it on both sides. Actually, 636 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: so maybe this is a good time to to tell 637 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: people what has happened since Yeah, since all of these 638 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: events have occurred. Yeah, yeah, we've laid out a number 639 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: of the continuing claims here. The military was investigating itself. 640 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: It was criticized, and rightly, I mean, how could it 641 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: be impartial? The Ministry of Defense at the very least 642 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: denied valuable information when it was most needed. And um, 643 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: Having waded through so much stuff on this case, I 644 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,280 Speaker 1: have to say it's pretty offensive to find that infamous 645 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: lack of accountability phrase kept popping up. You know, the 646 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: one mistakes were made. Note the beautiful, insidious structure of 647 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: the passive voice there. Then someone made a mistake, says 648 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,240 Speaker 1: this kind of language, but not anyone specifically, and definitely 649 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: not not me the person writing it. Don't make me 650 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:04,280 Speaker 1: responsible for the consequences of my actions. Uh. Look, there's 651 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: another important thing I want to hit. So there's a 652 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: ballistic expert named Ken Swan. He's independent, was working on 653 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: behalf of surviving family members, and he is one of 654 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: the reasons that the police have yet to release therefore 655 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: subsequent investigations, because he wrote to them and said, look, opinions, opinions, 656 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: emotions aside. I did the math. This is my area 657 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: of expertise. It is highly unlikely that any of these 658 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 1: four people committed suicide. He's there's an interview with the 659 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: Telegraph where he walks through his efforts. He physically went 660 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: to deep cut barracks, went to every position where these 661 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: four people um encounter these these fatal gunshots, and attempted 662 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: to reconstruct the wound patterns. What he found, if it 663 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: is true, is damning. He said. We have used some 664 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 1: of the best shots in the British Army in my tests, 665 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: but none has been able to recreate the same pattern 666 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: at the distances these suicides were supposed to have taken place. 667 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: In the case of Sean Benton, the wounding pattern can 668 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,280 Speaker 1: only be achieved when firing at a range of fifteen feet. 669 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: That does not point to suicide, and the styles on 670 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 1: them just a bit in a quote I really appreciated, 671 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: he says. There is always the possibility that I may 672 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: be wrong, but I will believe that when someone can 673 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: forensically prove that I am wrong. Otherwise I will stand 674 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: by my findings. If that's not enough, there's another revelation. 675 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: A female private who served at Deep Cut admitted to 676 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: police in one of their investigations that she ordered a 677 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: colleague to shoot at one of the four soldiers who 678 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: are still alleged to have committed suicide. She she said 679 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: that she told her colleague to fire at Private Sean 680 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: Benton because she thought he had fired at her. That 681 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: speaks to how lacks the firearm regulation was in general. 682 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:12,399 Speaker 1: There I believe in her account to the detectives. She says, yeah, 683 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: I told him, I told you know, a colleague mind 684 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,399 Speaker 1: of fire at Benton, but I wanted him to hit 685 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: the legs. Benton, of course, is the one who got 686 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: shot five times in the chest. And it's bigger. This 687 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: is one of the other important points that we found. 688 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: This is bigger than deep Cut. Uh. There are multiple 689 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: reports of suspicious deaths in the UK military, non combat deaths, right, 690 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: so they're not in the field, they're not in a 691 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: armed conflict with an enemy force. Uh. And multiple parents 692 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: and loved ones who disagree with the official findings. And 693 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,359 Speaker 1: just like the parents of the Deep Cut four, these 694 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,720 Speaker 1: relatives are demanding answers, but they are often left unsatisfied 695 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,839 Speaker 1: with the results of these investigations. We found two other 696 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: deaths that are indirectly linked to Deep Cut. Not saying 697 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: this is all like some kind of um Peppe Sylvia situation, 698 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: but these deaths were considered part of the Deep Cut 699 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,840 Speaker 1: four because they didn't occur on the premises. Yes. Private 700 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: David Shipley, twenty years old from Barrow in Furnace, found 701 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: unconscious and face down in an assault course pool in 702 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,919 Speaker 1: Germany on August seventeen, two thousand two, just days after 703 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,400 Speaker 1: he left from deep Cut. Um Private Alison Croft, twenty 704 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 1: two from Bradford was found hanged at Dalton Barracks in Abington, 705 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:43,800 Speaker 1: Oxfordshire in October of two thousand two. And although Croft 706 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,719 Speaker 1: had no official connection with deep Cut, officers from the 707 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,840 Speaker 1: two barracks often socialized together. Not not to not to 708 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: overstate the case as that being some kind of connection 709 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: or applying this to some kind of suicide pact or something. 710 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: It's just interesting. There's clearly more to the story than 711 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: the official investigations have revealed that I think we can 712 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: say with some degree of certainty. Yeah, And there are 713 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,360 Speaker 1: also other deaths within the military that should be looked 714 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: at that aren't necessarily bullying, but perhaps would be considered 715 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 1: extreme tactics of punishment that are doled out sometimes in 716 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,399 Speaker 1: these in these areas, these barracks, these facilities. There's one 717 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 1: that you can look to if you'd like, a private 718 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: named Gavin Williams who died after experiencing what is called 719 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: beasting b e A S t I n G. Where essentially, 720 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 1: as punishment you're made to exercise um beyond the extent 721 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: of what any soldier would normally do or any trainee 722 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: would normally do UM. And he died as a result 723 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: of this. And we have to remember the point I 724 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: don't think we hit here that I know all of 725 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,400 Speaker 1: our fellow listeners are thinking about during this exploration today. 726 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: These are kids, these are these are teenagers. You know, 727 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,359 Speaker 1: they're they're putting an environment. Like you mentioned, Matt, that 728 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: UM has a lot in common hormonally and socially with 729 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: things like fraternities or college days. So there's partying right 730 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:29,279 Speaker 1: and and partying alone and and like everybody who's ever 731 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 1: been that age, uh, I ask you you don't have 732 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: to tell us about it, but I ask you to 733 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: think back to all the dumb stuff you did as 734 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,839 Speaker 1: a kid. Uh? And does that mean does that mean 735 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: that you should have died? It doesn't. And and I 736 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: think you know, to that point about diving into UM 737 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: the full extent of these people's personal lives, I think 738 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: sometimes investigation no, you know what, why couch it? I 739 00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:02,480 Speaker 1: know sometimes that investigations tend hand use that that information 740 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: as a kind of posthumous victim blaming, which is reprehensible. 741 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 1: I mean, that's unclean, but but it happens in multiple 742 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 1: cases far beyond the Deep Cut for I'm I'm interested 743 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: in hearing you guys ideas on this UM. I mean, 744 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,359 Speaker 1: do you think the UK and the US. I don't 745 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 1: want to be unfair. The UK has a huge problem 746 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,359 Speaker 1: with their reports. We were talking about this a little 747 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: bit off air. Uh. They have a habit of, like 748 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 1: reports on child abuse rings have a series of inquest 749 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: and very formal, official sounding language that lead nowhere, and 750 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,879 Speaker 1: the reports disappear and the evidence is gone and they 751 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,240 Speaker 1: hope that the news cycle moves on. Do you guys 752 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,719 Speaker 1: think that there will be revelations on this Deep Cut 753 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,759 Speaker 1: four case or do you think it's going to be, 754 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, like Operation you Turee or something can just 755 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,239 Speaker 1: consigned to history. I don't know. Well, if you think 756 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: about the case of Eryl, she died in and there 757 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: was still stuff coming out in UM, but there are 758 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,960 Speaker 1: these kinds of inquests that you're describing UM, where it's 759 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: a deep background look at what was happening in her 760 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: life up into the point when she allegedly committed suicide, 761 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,960 Speaker 1: looking at every minute detail of her personal life, the 762 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: terrible things that had happened to her, the consequences of 763 00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: those things, how she dealt with them, how other people 764 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,279 Speaker 1: and her family dealt with them, her personal relationships. But 765 00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,840 Speaker 1: to your point about uh, you know, essentially using that 766 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: information to victim blame, which I would say it absolutely 767 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: has been seen to function in that way in the past. 768 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 1: I just wonder how you guys would try and prove 769 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: that someone committed suicide or not without looking at their 770 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 1: past of you know, possibly self harm, of suffering from depression, 771 00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: of their personal interpersonal relationships. I don't know how you would, 772 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,520 Speaker 1: at least after the fact, especially years after the fact, 773 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: how you would be able to prove one way or 774 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,439 Speaker 1: the other if it was suicide if you didn't do that. 775 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 1: Did we discuss bend the what you had mentioned afair 776 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: about the five gunshot wounds to the chest, the justification 777 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,040 Speaker 1: for that that that's the one that blew me away, 778 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:20,600 Speaker 1: and we said we were going to come back to 779 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 1: Sean and his suicide note um and and some of 780 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,600 Speaker 1: the weirdness surrounding that scenario. But wasn't it determined that 781 00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: it was an automatic blasts or something like that, that 782 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,600 Speaker 1: that the gun was an automatic mode and so it 783 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 1: shot a spray of bullets. Adam, Yeah, that's correct. That 784 00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,240 Speaker 1: was the official conclusion of UM one of the internal 785 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:46,839 Speaker 1: inquest or internal UM investigations. Yeah, and it's interesting because 786 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: that story too, goes through a couple of different iterations 787 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: when you read about it, where there's one version that 788 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 1: says that he fired shots at another UH officer UM, 789 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,040 Speaker 1: and then that he was talked down, he was attempted 790 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: to be talked down from like, you know, taking his 791 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,160 Speaker 1: own life, and then he did it in view of 792 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,839 Speaker 1: another officer and UH, it's it's a little like you said, then, 793 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 1: reading these documents can be very little tricky. UM. So 794 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,280 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure if I was, if I'm interpreting 795 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,160 Speaker 1: this correctly, but that that's what I what I saw. 796 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have had any other 797 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: research materials about that case. Well, the only thing I 798 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:28,840 Speaker 1: would bring up here would be potential motive for covering 799 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 1: up a homicide within an army facility like that, UM. 800 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,120 Speaker 1: And I think just it's worth a quick discussion here. 801 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,600 Speaker 1: Think about the pr blowback that would happen if soldiers 802 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 1: under your care as a commanding officer, you've got let's 803 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,640 Speaker 1: say eighty of these UH, these lower ranking soldiers under 804 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,080 Speaker 1: your care, you find out that there was a firefight 805 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,359 Speaker 1: between a couple of your students. Essentially they're basically students. Uh, 806 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,799 Speaker 1: there's a physical firefight between your students and one of 807 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 1: them died being shot five times. Would you, you know, 808 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: report that officially, as in the students that I was 809 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: meant to be looking after shot at each other and 810 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,919 Speaker 1: one of them killed another one, or would you try 811 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,920 Speaker 1: to make it look like a suicide. Um. I'm not 812 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,799 Speaker 1: not saying, um, that that's definitely what happened. I'm not 813 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,400 Speaker 1: saying that that is what would happen. I'm just saying 814 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 1: there is that is a I would say, a possible 815 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: motivation to want to make something like that look like 816 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,759 Speaker 1: a suicide and officially become a suicide. Yeah. And and 817 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,759 Speaker 1: you know that another interesting thing about his cases that 818 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,480 Speaker 1: there was a suicide note that was found, but there 819 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:51,160 Speaker 1: there's some inconsistencies with that. And and according to the note, 820 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,800 Speaker 1: this is what the note said to sergeant gave again 821 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,600 Speaker 1: again that the kind of villainous figure that we've talked about. UM, 822 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,839 Speaker 1: I'm sorry for what I'm doing, but I just can't 823 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:04,360 Speaker 1: accept being discharged. I'm too embarrassed to go home, and 824 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to be on city Street. And I 825 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,560 Speaker 1: don't want to have a factory job. I just wanted 826 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,440 Speaker 1: a career in the army. I know it's my fault 827 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,880 Speaker 1: for things I've done wrong. Only if I got a 828 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,360 Speaker 1: week's leave when I applied for things I could have 829 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,320 Speaker 1: been it could have been different. I could have calmed 830 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,960 Speaker 1: down instead of building problems up and then getting drunk 831 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: and bursting into flames. It's terrible to read. So here 832 00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:33,879 Speaker 1: we are, and now now we're we passed this to you, 833 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realist. What do you think are these tragedies? Yes? Absolutely? 834 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:47,000 Speaker 1: What is there a cover up of foot uh? Do you, 835 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,160 Speaker 1: like the parents of of these of these victims believe 836 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,240 Speaker 1: that to be the case, or do you think it's 837 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,799 Speaker 1: um you know, it's just a matter of tragedy and 838 00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:01,920 Speaker 1: perhaps well intentioned incompetence on the part of some investigators, 839 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,000 Speaker 1: who are you know, of course themselves human and therefore fallible. 840 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,880 Speaker 1: Or are these deaths the results of enormous stress leading 841 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,359 Speaker 1: to suicidal acts or some of these deaths homicide? If so, 842 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 1: are these homicides in some way linked? And perhaps most importantly, 843 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: what happens next? It's and and none of these have 844 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:30,879 Speaker 1: been solved to you know, universal satisfaction. UM, we would 845 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,440 Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts. You can find us on Facebook, 846 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,719 Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter, you can find us 847 00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:42,200 Speaker 1: on the other one Instagram. Sorry, guys, we're conspiracy stuff 848 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: on most of those conspiracy stuff showing Instagram. Just mentioning here. 849 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,319 Speaker 1: As we said at the top of the show, there 850 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,600 Speaker 1: is a ton more that you can dig into with 851 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,839 Speaker 1: each one of these people's deaths, and we recommend you 852 00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,440 Speaker 1: you do that if if you feel so inclined, UM, 853 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,360 Speaker 1: and if you find something that you feel needs to 854 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,800 Speaker 1: be brought to our attention and the rest of us listening, 855 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,239 Speaker 1: please send it our way. One last important note here. 856 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,920 Speaker 1: It's something UM we endeavor to include at the end 857 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 1: of any episode dealing with this content. Suicide is real. 858 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,160 Speaker 1: It is a real and serious thing. If you or 859 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:30,120 Speaker 1: a loved one are currently quarreling with or combating suicidal ideation, 860 00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: you are not alone. You are worth it. There are 861 00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,840 Speaker 1: resources out there specifically for you. We like to recommend 862 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:42,279 Speaker 1: the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. It is available twenty four 863 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,760 Speaker 1: hours a day. Here is the number one eight hundred 864 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:50,399 Speaker 1: two seven three eight to five five. Again, that's one 865 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:55,719 Speaker 1: eight hundred to seven three eight to five. Thanks ben Um. 866 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: I think that's that's really important resource to have. Uh, 867 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,040 Speaker 1: if anyone out there knows anybody that's going through any 868 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,160 Speaker 1: of this stuff, I would also just say just be 869 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,399 Speaker 1: a be a resource yourself, if you know. I mean 870 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:10,440 Speaker 1: it's not always a parent, but if you see morning signs, 871 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,000 Speaker 1: especially with someone that's very close to you, just check 872 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,360 Speaker 1: on people and make sure they're doing okay, and just 873 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,320 Speaker 1: just be try your best to be supportive and understand 874 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,799 Speaker 1: because sometimes people are suffering in silence and then they 875 00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,480 Speaker 1: don't want anybody to know. But I think it's more 876 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,920 Speaker 1: meaningful than one might realize. Uh, you know when someone 877 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 1: sees you and and really tries to connect in that way. Yeah. 878 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,319 Speaker 1: The last thing I would put here is you You 879 00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 1: can also go to some meraitans dot org s A 880 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,719 Speaker 1: M A R I T A n s dot org 881 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,600 Speaker 1: where you can talk to somebody, uh three and six 882 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 1: or five days a year, twenty four hours a day. 883 00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:47,960 Speaker 1: If you're in need, call them please. And if you 884 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: have thoughts on this episode or any of the topics 885 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,840 Speaker 1: covered it it we would like to hear from you. 886 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,360 Speaker 1: You don't have to use social media. If that's not 887 00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,160 Speaker 1: your bag of badgers. We also have a number or 888 00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,920 Speaker 1: where you can call us twenty four hours a day 889 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,680 Speaker 1: and leave a message, especially with information on this or 890 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 1: any other topic. Uh. If the spirit so moves you, 891 00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,120 Speaker 1: we always like to give our own number out here. 892 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 1: You can call us. Our number is one eight three 893 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:22,880 Speaker 1: three st d w y t K. You can leave 894 00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,120 Speaker 1: a message. You have three minutes. Anything you want to say, 895 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,600 Speaker 1: We're we're here to listen to. If you don't want 896 00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,120 Speaker 1: to do any of that stuff, you don't want social media, 897 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:31,600 Speaker 1: you don't want to call, but you do want to 898 00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: send us information, please send us a good old fashioned email. 899 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:56,920 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they 900 00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Is a production of I 901 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 902 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,880 Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 903 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows