WEBVTT - Europe’s answer to the green backlash 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.680 Welcome to zero, I am Akshatrati. This week, Europe's answer 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:21.360 to the green backlash. Five years ago, green parties celebrated 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:25.400 their best ever results in European elections. The headlines called 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.360 it a quiet revolution. It ushered in a new era 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:33.159 in the European Parliament, one where green issues got a 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.199 real hearing. As a result, the European Green Deal was 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:41.880 approved in twenty twenty and big policies followed that. Work 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:44.640 to put all of it in place is still going. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.720 But today it's not easy being green anymore. With just 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.360 a month until European parliamentary elections, the Greens appeared to 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.400 be polling far behind where they were in twenty nineteen. 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.240 Farmers protests are stalling the Green Deal, the cost of 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:05.520 living crisis is making the populist argument more attractive, and 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.679 younger voters who Greens could count on previously are turning 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.480 to the far right in growing numbers. You could argue 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.000 this is how politics goes. It's a pendulum, but the 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.000 climate crisis is not. It only continues to get worse. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:24.920 One person trying to fight the anti green tide is 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.840 bas Icut. He's been a Dutch member of European Parliament 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.720 since two thousand and nine. In February, the European Green 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.560 Party picked him to be the party's lead candidate alongside 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:42.160 Terry reinkeer Germany's Green Map. Their job now is to 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.360 sell voters on the party's vision of a more equal 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:50.080 and ecological Europe. I caught up with bas in Brussels 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.960 at the European Parliament. He told me that despite the backlash, 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.000 the message that the Greens have about the long term 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.720 is even more important today than it was five years ago. 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.240 So we talked about how exactly it is that he 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:09.080 can make a convincing case in a much changed political environment. 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:27.160 Welcome to the show biz. Thank you. Now I know 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:29.560 a CHEMISTR When I see one. I know you studied 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.480 chemistry and of course you are now leading the Greens 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.760 Party into the European elections. Could you just talk us 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.680 through how do you go from a chemistry degree to 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:40.680 doing what you do now? 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.880 Well, that has been a long journey, to be very honest. 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:49.440 So no, I think I've always been interested in environmental issues, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.280 so to say so back in my youth, already my 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.640 dream job was going into one of these little greenpeace 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:02.240 votes and then blocking will hunters. Basically, that was my 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.880 first ideal dream. Then it turned out I'm not such 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.200 a hero, so probably I had to drop that idea 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.680 quite quickly, and I noticed that I can do something 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.600 with my head, so to say. So then I studied 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.760 and went into well, into the university, and then I thought, okay, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.519 what's probably the most complicated thing I can do, because 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.000 if I can manage that, then probably the rest can 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.640 only get easier. So that's when I decided to go 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.359 for chemistry. I sometimes regretted that choice, by the way. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.640 It was not always a pleasure, but the idea was 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.360 always to end up in a job where I do 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.400 environmental research basically, and in the Netherlands, I ended up 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.560 at an agency doing climate change research. So I really 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:50.160 was a computer modeler, really nerdy stuff, and I really 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:55.320 like that. During my well, my research and my working period, 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.640 I got more and more frustrated basically about the inaction 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.280 of politics, and that's led to a certain moment the 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.000 decision maybe I should, instead of getting old and cynical 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.680 and complain about politicians, maybe first tried on that side 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.640 before I get old and cynical. So that's how I 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:13.680 ended up in politics. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:18.400 Basically well, Europe is gearing up for the parliamentary elections 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:22.680 in June this year, you, along with Terry Renker, are 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.960 set to lead the European Greens. Currently, the Greens hold 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:30.000 about seventy four seats in a seven hundred and fifty 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.080 seed parliament, and that's helped you push the climate agenda 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.880 to the center of European politics. The European Climate Law 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.280 passed with the majority even though Greens did not support 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.240 because you thought it wasn't going far enough. And so 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.440 you've clearly had a huge amount of success in pushing 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:54.200 other parties to build up to doing more on climate. Now, 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.800 Poles do suggest that the Greens are set to take 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.600 a beating. What do you think you need to do 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.479 to turn the tide and perhaps even gain seats rather than, 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.479 as the polls say right now, lose them. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.239 Well, first of all, I'm not too pessimistic yet about 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.960 the elections. It's clearly it's going to be much more 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.560 of an uphill battle than it was in twenty nineteen. 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.200 I do remember then in twenty nineteen we got questions 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.320 of journalists do you still need Greens for a green agenda? 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:21.640 Right? 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.120 So, I think there's always a question whether we are 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.480 required or not. And back then I already said, well, 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.600 you know, it's great to see many parties going for 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.760 green policies. I mean, we can only welcome that, of course, 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.880 but that's usually with a lot of politicians day they 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.000 followed where the wind takes them, right, So and in 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.160 twenty nineteen it was very clear those were climbing elections, 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.279 so everyone was talking about climate and it was everyone's priority. 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.040 But then you already knew that when it's going to 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.600 get tough and the wind might be changing, then of 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.040 course you need also Greens in the parliament that stay 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.280 on the course. So I think that's that's exactly the 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.840 moment where we are now. So the wind has changed, 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:07.360 there is more resistance, and that requires Greens to maintain 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.200 this political agenda. What we started in twenty nineteen was 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.600 of course a transformation of our entire economy. So basically 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.560 we started the marathon in twenty nineteen and we are 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:24.039 now probably five kilometers down that marathon. The good news 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.440 is that meanwhile the United States has joined the marathon 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.440 by throwing a lot of money. But so they do 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:32.960 it in their way, but they joined the race, and 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.480 also China is more and more of course continuing and 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.400 really getting into this global green race. I would say, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.560 so basically, we have a marathon, we started, we are 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:46.120 five kilometers down the road, and now some people are saying, oh, 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.880 maybe let's take a break, let's take a pause, let's 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.440 push the pause button. That's a weird way if you 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.039 want to win this race, right, So I think that's 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.799 the moment where we are now, and what I would 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.120 hope and what I also expect is that some company 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.719 are now starting to get nervous as well and start 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.599 to speak out because I think the only future for 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:12.280 European industry if they really embrace this green innovative agenda. 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.320 So when they are starting this green deal and this race, 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.440 they should get nervous if Europe now after five years 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:23.679 is saying, oh, now we're going to change course, because 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:27.679 it's exactly the unpredictability, the unclarity where Europe is going 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:29.880 that it has been and it still is one of 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:33.440 the biggest problems for our European industry. So I think 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.000 it needs to become clear this campaign that the green 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.520 agenda and what we Greens are fighting for is probably 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.960 the best agenda for the future. Of our industry, and 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.640 that the Greens are the better ally of industry than 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:46.120 what conservatives claim to be. 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:51.200 But let's look at the EU's largest economy, Germany. The 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.280 Green Party was voted in with a big mandate in 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:58.119 twenty twenty one. However, given all that has happened since 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.040 the Ukraine War, energy crisis, inflation, it's not been a 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:06.240 great time to be in power, most recently that showing 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.920 up in large amounts of the industrialization across the country. 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.480 It's not green policies alone that can be blamed, but 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.280 far right parties are certainly using it as ammunition to 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.560 say this is what can happen across the EU if 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:27.080 climate warriors go too far. So you are saying that 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.960 it is the green agenda that will get European industries 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.120 the future they need in the twenty first century. And yet, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:41.240 given we are seeing industry shut down, especially in Germany, 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:46.080 the powerhouse of European industry, how do you fight against 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:46.760 that narrative? 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.880 Well, I think by first making very clear that the 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.520 closing down of industry in Germany is exactly because of 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.280 a lack of a green agenda or a very late 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:01.640 starting of the green agenda. Just too exam First of all, 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.240 why is there such a problem with the German industry. 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.880 It's the energy prices. Where does that come from? The 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.880 energy price? Of course, the inflation that we have seen 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.520 on energy is mainly because of the high reliance of 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:20.760 the German economy on Russian gas. That was a political 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.400 decision by the Conservatives. I mean, I do remember that 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:28.640 during the election campaign. It was Anneleina Beerboch who was 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:33.600 there sitting between two old gray men Lushet and Shoults, 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.400 and she was explaining the problem with nord Stream two, 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.680 and she exactly explained. Basically, she predicted the future. She 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.680 was explaining why nord Stream two was such a problem 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.360 and such a mistake. And you saw those two guys 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.839 looking at her like, ah, little girl, we're going to 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.360 explain your big politics one day, because you're totally wrong. 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.480 So it was the Greens exactly warning for making your 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:03.079 economy vulnerable independent of a Russian dictator. Right now, that's 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.079 what happened, not in two was canceled. But of course 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:11.120 when your entire economy is built on Russian cheap gas 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.719 and that suddenly changes, then you need to adjust massively. 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.560 I don't think any German government would have had an 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.360 easy job in doing this transition in a very fast way. 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.240 If Greens would have been in power much longer before 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.200 this transition could have been prepped, could have been phased in. 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.880 Now suddenly you were forced, because of those circumstances to 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.400 do your transition in a very short while, with of 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.600 course big consequences for energy. So that is a big 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.680 problem absolutely, But I wouldn't say that's a problem because 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:42.920 of green policies. I would say it's a problem because 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.360 of lack of green policies and heavy reliant on a 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.000 fossil economy that turned out to be much more vulnerable 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.440 than the Conservatives said. The other example is the German 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:57.199 car industry. The German car industry is of course very 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:01.240 proud of it. It's very strong and reliable cars, but 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.200 has always been built on the combustion engine. They had 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.840 been relying on this combustion engine for a very long while, 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.640 even to the extent that when we were having some 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.000 policies to clean it up, to clean the diesel up, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.000 they decided to cheat on it instead of cleaning up 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.559 the diesel right diesel gate, and politicians were too weak 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.880 to act on that, so there was a kind of 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.719 a false impression to the German car industry that they 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.840 could do business as usual. For a very long while, 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:35.200 while the German car industry was basically a sleep in 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:41.319 its combustion engine, China was heavily investing in electrification, not 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.839 only in their batteries but also the entire supply chain, 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.160 so going to Africa, getting into its supply chain, relations 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.480 with countries in Latin America, et cetera. So really classic 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.560 industrial policy on the electric car. What do we see 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:01.640 now the biggest increase of exporting national cars China. So 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.800 again a lack of clear policies for innovation within Europe 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.480 is now the price where the German car industry is 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.160 suffering from. So I think what we see now is 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.600 that all these problems are coming together. So it's then, 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:19.040 of course a very nice narrative to blame the greens, 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.960 but I think you have to go into your analysis 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.760 and in the narrative behind it and see what went wrong, 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.280 and then I think it's quite often a lack of 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.680 green policies that is now hitting the German industry. 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.720 The far right parties have clearly a lot of fodder 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.960 right now to walk against green policies. The most recent 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:45.040 one that we've seen is farmers and agriculture. Now, let's 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.960 just take the case of your home country, the Netherlands. 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.480 The elections last year led to the far right party 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.439 under Gert Wilders winning the most number of seats, and 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.480 if I compress events just a little bit, because politics 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:02.680 can be complicated, one big reason for that electoral surprise 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.000 and huge loss for the leading center right party is 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:12.200 how the government handled deployment of some climate policies, specifically 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.400 those tied to nitrogen emissions, that were brought up with 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.360 little consultation with farmers, with very little time to actually 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:26.000 get the emissions reductions, leading to huge protests and change 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:30.280 in the mood of a whole country. Now those protests 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.960 have spread out across the EU. Why do you think 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.360 the far right has been able to capture the narrative 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:42.559 on the continent that has led the world on climate action. Yeah? 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.880 No, And that's of course the one billion dollar question, 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.959 to be very honest, because I do think that also 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.040 in the agriculture story, there are very clear reasons why 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.800 indeed politics has failed, but quite often it has been 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:59.959 conservative politics. And if I may just on agriculture, very briefly, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.480 I think the biggest problem what we see there is 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.320 that on the one hand, in our economic policies, we 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.520 are forcing farmers to go to larger skill farming, partly 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.280 because of our subsidy system. You know, the more acres 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.000 you have, the more money you get, So in that 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:20.920 subsidy system, they are pushing farmers to make themselves bigger. 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.480 But also in our anti economy model, where are the 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.720 profits in the food chain. The profits are not with 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:28.800 the farmers. They are with the retailers. They are in 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.360 the financial sector. They are in the inputs right, so 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.520 of chemicals and fertilizer. That's where the profits are so 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.920 the big players. So for a farmer, in order to 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.120 get a little bit of the profit still enough to 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.040 feed their own family, they need to enlarge as well 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.720 because the profits are not enough anymore, So you just 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.560 produce more in order to reap some more profits. So 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.440 economically they are forced in large skilled farming. And then 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.920 comes in the green policies. The green policies are there 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.520 to address you need to deal with climate change, climate extremes, 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:04.520 so you need more diversified agriculture. Then of course for biodiversity, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.960 you need more nature inclusive agriculture. So all these kind 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:12.720 of models are more small skill farming, more diverse, and 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.840 less monocultures. So basically, the economic system is pushing the 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.120 farm in a certain direction and the green policies are 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.520 pulling it in another direction. Then don't be surprised that 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.880 the farmer at a certain moment feels like, but where 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:26.880 do I need to go now? I don't know anymore. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:28.760 You're already with the back against the wall, and then 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:30.760 you come up with new policies that are only making 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:35.880 it more complicated. I think then it's very easy for 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.520 a politician that is pretending that there is a simple solution, 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.760 and a simple solution is all those politicians are lying 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:44.720 to you. We have a simple answer to you. You 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.640 can just stay on your model that your parents worked 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.960 on and you don't have to change anything. That's a 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.000 very appealing story. If I feel the pressure and with 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.720 the back against the wall, I also would love to 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.280 have that story. I don't need to change. But I 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.400 think it's a lie which is not helping any farmer 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.680 for the future either. So I think what our biggest 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.680 challenge is, and here comes the challenges that our answers 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:12.240 are usually long term future oriented, but also you need 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.360 long answer like I'm giving now, whereas the counterpart is 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.040 just saying it's all nonsense, it's rubbish, and you don't 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.880 need to change anything and you're free. That's so much 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.960 easier and so much more appealing if, certainly, if you 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.640 are uncertain about your own future. And I think this 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.160 is really going to be our biggest challenge, whether we 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.600 can break that simplistic narrative of a false romantic you know, 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.800 back to the future, back to the past, and that 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.160 we as Greens need to be more compelling in selling 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.040 our long term answers. 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:47.360 Basically, yeah, it is kind of surprising when I looked 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:52.200 at numbers. A third of the EU's budget is dedicated 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.760 to providing subsidies to farmers. That is a lot of money. 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.880 Of course, if the e succeeds at it's current climate 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.639 plan by twenty forty, agriculture would account for the bulk 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:10.400 of the block screenous gas emissions. So if they are 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.439 currently believing the lies, and yet they have to be 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.480 part of the solution to reduce emissions because without that 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.439 there is no way to net zero. How do you 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.400 cut agricultural emissions without such a backlash. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.560 Well, that's not an easy question, right, But I do 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.679 think that the first thing you need to do is 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.400 being honest. I mean, and this is a lesson from 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.639 the Netherlands, right. So our problem was not climate, but 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:37.680 it was nitrogen. As you said, So we have too 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.440 many nutrients. We are basically importing nutrients from the rest 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.600 of the world through feed, and then we raise the 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.800 cattle and we keep the shit literally in our country, 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.000 and we have an overload of our nutrients. And basically 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.119 that's our biggest problem. We are piling up nutrients in 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.960 our country. This was a model that we build upon 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.159 as Netherlands we have I've had quite some economic successes 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.520 with it, but it was also environmentally unsustainable. We all 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.679 know that for more than twenty years, read all the 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:14.840 reports that were there. However, politicians kept on promising the farmers, no, 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.960 you'll be fine, we will work on innovation. We will 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:22.000 you know, all kinds of cleaning technologies. They will solve 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.000 the problem of too many nutrients. Where As, of course, 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:26.640 in the end you can put it to the left 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:28.720 to the right. In the end, there are too many 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.240 nutrients in our country. So something needs to give. But 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.920 the politicians never gave that message to the farmers. And 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:39.280 even worse, the farmers meanwhile were stimulated to get bigger, 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.440 to grow bigger. The banks were giving loans in order 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:48.119 they would even get into bigger farm settings, etc. So 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.280 increasing debt, more remore stock in this model, and politicians 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:56.360 promising that there would be no problem until the courts 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.320 stepped in because at a certain moment you just have 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.879 some law that you can't stretch them anymore. And then 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.040 it's the court saying, sorry, but now you're not allowed anymore. 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:07.680 And suddenly the farmers from one day to the other 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.800 where not their model basically was called bankrupt. Then of 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.359 course all those farmers were like, but sorry, I indebted myself, 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.639 so what do I do now? So basically the lying 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.639 of politicians, the falls pretending that they don't need to change, 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.200 only increase the crisis we are having in the Netherlands, 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.280 not only environmentally, but certainly also for the state of 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.879 where farmers are now in the Netherlands. If now in Europe, 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.480 we're going to make that same mistake on climate and 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.080 basically the Commission, when they are now discussing their twenty 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.080 forty target agriculture is hardly mentioned it's kind of okay, 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.880 don't mention it. That's exactly making the same mistake as 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.280 we did in the Netherlands. By not mentioning it, by 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.719 not talking about it, the problem is not going away. 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:58.320 And this is my biggest warning also to farmers. You 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.879 may turn against the Greens because they are ready to 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.119 talk to you and say, hey, let's change the model 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.720 and how can we do that. But you probably have 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.240 a better ally with the Greens because they are willing 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.960 to talk about it now, and also put your subsidy 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.840 scheme towards it instead of politicians that are pretending that 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.920 there is no problem. They give you a false hope 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.720 you can continue like it is. But then in five 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.280 ten years time, suddenly you will get the heart message 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.280 and then the change is much more complicated. And this 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.439 is really the biggest lessons for Europe on climate. Don't 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:35.159 make the same mistake as we did in the Netherlands. 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.040 Europe has a head start in the climate RAITs, but 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.280 the rest of the world is starting to catch up. 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:47.520 After the break, Baz tells me how Europe can stay competitive. 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:50.879 And by the way, if you like this episode, please 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:52.760 take a moment to rate or review the show on 0:20:52.840 --> 0:21:04.479 Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This is a worry that is 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.919 not just there in agriculture but all kinds of economic 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:13.199 systems where people want an orderly transition. There is a 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.240 polluting technology and then there's a clean technology, and you 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.000 want to move from the polluting to the clean and 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:22.880 as smooth away as possible. That requires time. And so 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:26.639 you're saying, because the Netherlands dragged its feet on trying 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.159 to deploy policies to reduce nitrogen emissions and then the 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:34.760 courts force them to suddenly bring those policies down, that's 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:37.480 what led to the Blackclash, and now if you do 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.920 the same thing with the twenty forty targets, the EU 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:47.040 could be facing a similar tragedy. Absolutely, But talking about 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.840 emissions is the hard part right now. It's the narrative 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.280 that if you fight for just the emissions, then you're 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:59.440 going to take our earnings away, our income away. It's 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.560 the narrative that is winning. So how do you break 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:06.359 the gridlock? You're making a logically smart point, but you 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:08.680 still need to be able to cut through and actually 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.680 have those conversations what will allow you to cut through. 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:16.000 But I think that's the classic part where if we 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:20.680 greens would only talk about emissions and reduction percentages, etc. 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:23.960 Indeed them are not cutting through. I think we also 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:26.960 need to talk about Okay, but how can we make 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:30.159 sure that the farmers can have an honors living. And 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:33.159 this is also by addressing the economic system. This is 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.320 also by addressing the problems in the entire food chain. 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.520 And this is also addressing the power position that retailers 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.960 are having right and until now. And it's those same 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:48.080 conservative politicians who are claiming I'm on your side. They 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.119 never dare to break the economic power of retailers and banks, 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.760 et cetera. And this is exactly why the Greens are 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:58.240 also always making it the very clear case a green 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.880 deal can only survive if it's a socially just green deal, 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:03.960 and for agriculture, I think it's a case in point, 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:04.600 very clearly. 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:08.280 So one of the biggest reasons for Europe's success in 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:12.520 reducing emissions is down to the emissions trading system that's 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:16.800 provided businesses with certainty about the direction of travel and 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:21.199 does incentivize them to cut emissions. So far, it's been 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:25.400 focused on power production, on industries, aviation shipping. Now it's 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:29.000 set to expand to road transport and buildings. How do 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:32.600 you think agriculture could be brought into the emissions trading 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:35.720 system because that could prove to be one way in 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:40.200 which emissions are reduced in the most economically efficient. 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:44.240 I challenge you there because this mantra that it's the 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:48.080 ETS the cornerstone that is providing the success in the clarity. 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.280 This is exactly what I would like to challenge, because 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.000 the only clarity that companies are having on ETS is Okay, 0:23:55.040 --> 0:24:01.520 I will get less allowances in Europe. So yes, probably 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:04.480 we are going to meet the ETS targets for twenty forty, 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:08.280 which is zero emissions, because the allowances go to zero 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:12.239 in twenty thirty nine. So you have that certainty, but 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:14.800