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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero, I am Akshatrati. This week, Europe's answer

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Speaker 1: to the green backlash. Five years ago, green parties celebrated

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Speaker 1: their best ever results in European elections. The headlines called

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Speaker 1: it a quiet revolution. It ushered in a new era

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Speaker 1: in the European Parliament, one where green issues got a

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Speaker 1: real hearing. As a result, the European Green Deal was

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Speaker 1: approved in twenty twenty and big policies followed that. Work

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Speaker 1: to put all of it in place is still going.

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Speaker 1: But today it's not easy being green anymore. With just

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Speaker 1: a month until European parliamentary elections, the Greens appeared to

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Speaker 1: be polling far behind where they were in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Farmers protests are stalling the Green Deal, the cost of

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Speaker 1: living crisis is making the populist argument more attractive, and

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Speaker 1: younger voters who Greens could count on previously are turning

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Speaker 1: to the far right in growing numbers. You could argue

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Speaker 1: this is how politics goes. It's a pendulum, but the

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Speaker 1: climate crisis is not. It only continues to get worse.

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Speaker 1: One person trying to fight the anti green tide is

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Speaker 1: bas Icut. He's been a Dutch member of European Parliament

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Speaker 1: since two thousand and nine. In February, the European Green

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Speaker 1: Party picked him to be the party's lead candidate alongside

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Speaker 1: Terry reinkeer Germany's Green Map. Their job now is to

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Speaker 1: sell voters on the party's vision of a more equal

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Speaker 1: and ecological Europe. I caught up with bas in Brussels

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Speaker 1: at the European Parliament. He told me that despite the backlash,

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Speaker 1: the message that the Greens have about the long term

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Speaker 1: is even more important today than it was five years ago.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about how exactly it is that he

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Speaker 1: can make a convincing case in a much changed political environment.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show biz. Thank you. Now I know

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Speaker 1: a CHEMISTR When I see one. I know you studied

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Speaker 1: chemistry and of course you are now leading the Greens

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Speaker 1: Party into the European elections. Could you just talk us

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Speaker 1: through how do you go from a chemistry degree to

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Speaker 1: doing what you do now?

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Speaker 2: Well, that has been a long journey, to be very honest.

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Speaker 2: So no, I think I've always been interested in environmental issues,

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Speaker 2: so to say so back in my youth, already my

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Speaker 2: dream job was going into one of these little greenpeace

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Speaker 2: votes and then blocking will hunters. Basically, that was my

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Speaker 2: first ideal dream. Then it turned out I'm not such

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Speaker 2: a hero, so probably I had to drop that idea

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Speaker 2: quite quickly, and I noticed that I can do something

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Speaker 2: with my head, so to say. So then I studied

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Speaker 2: and went into well, into the university, and then I thought, okay,

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Speaker 2: what's probably the most complicated thing I can do, because

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Speaker 2: if I can manage that, then probably the rest can

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Speaker 2: only get easier. So that's when I decided to go

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Speaker 2: for chemistry. I sometimes regretted that choice, by the way.

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Speaker 2: It was not always a pleasure, but the idea was

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Speaker 2: always to end up in a job where I do

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Speaker 2: environmental research basically, and in the Netherlands, I ended up

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Speaker 2: at an agency doing climate change research. So I really

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Speaker 2: was a computer modeler, really nerdy stuff, and I really

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Speaker 2: like that. During my well, my research and my working period,

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Speaker 2: I got more and more frustrated basically about the inaction

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Speaker 2: of politics, and that's led to a certain moment the

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Speaker 2: decision maybe I should, instead of getting old and cynical

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Speaker 2: and complain about politicians, maybe first tried on that side

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Speaker 2: before I get old and cynical. So that's how I

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Speaker 2: ended up in politics.

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Speaker 1: Basically well, Europe is gearing up for the parliamentary elections

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Speaker 1: in June this year, you, along with Terry Renker, are

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Speaker 1: set to lead the European Greens. Currently, the Greens hold

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Speaker 1: about seventy four seats in a seven hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: seed parliament, and that's helped you push the climate agenda

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Speaker 1: to the center of European politics. The European Climate Law

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Speaker 1: passed with the majority even though Greens did not support

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Speaker 1: because you thought it wasn't going far enough. And so

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Speaker 1: you've clearly had a huge amount of success in pushing

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Speaker 1: other parties to build up to doing more on climate. Now,

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Speaker 1: Poles do suggest that the Greens are set to take

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Speaker 1: a beating. What do you think you need to do

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Speaker 1: to turn the tide and perhaps even gain seats rather than,

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Speaker 1: as the polls say right now, lose them.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I'm not too pessimistic yet about

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Speaker 2: the elections. It's clearly it's going to be much more

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Speaker 2: of an uphill battle than it was in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 2: I do remember then in twenty nineteen we got questions

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Speaker 2: of journalists do you still need Greens for a green agenda?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: So, I think there's always a question whether we are

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Speaker 2: required or not. And back then I already said, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's great to see many parties going for

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Speaker 2: green policies. I mean, we can only welcome that, of course,

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Speaker 2: but that's usually with a lot of politicians day they

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Speaker 2: followed where the wind takes them, right, So and in

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen it was very clear those were climbing elections,

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Speaker 2: so everyone was talking about climate and it was everyone's priority.

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Speaker 2: But then you already knew that when it's going to

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Speaker 2: get tough and the wind might be changing, then of

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Speaker 2: course you need also Greens in the parliament that stay

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Speaker 2: on the course. So I think that's that's exactly the

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Speaker 2: moment where we are now. So the wind has changed,

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Speaker 2: there is more resistance, and that requires Greens to maintain

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Speaker 2: this political agenda. What we started in twenty nineteen was

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Speaker 2: of course a transformation of our entire economy. So basically

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Speaker 2: we started the marathon in twenty nineteen and we are

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Speaker 2: now probably five kilometers down that marathon. The good news

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Speaker 2: is that meanwhile the United States has joined the marathon

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Speaker 2: by throwing a lot of money. But so they do

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Speaker 2: it in their way, but they joined the race, and

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Speaker 2: also China is more and more of course continuing and

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Speaker 2: really getting into this global green race. I would say,

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Speaker 2: so basically, we have a marathon, we started, we are

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Speaker 2: five kilometers down the road, and now some people are saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: maybe let's take a break, let's take a pause, let's

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Speaker 2: push the pause button. That's a weird way if you

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Speaker 2: want to win this race, right, So I think that's

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Speaker 2: the moment where we are now, and what I would

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Speaker 2: hope and what I also expect is that some company

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Speaker 2: are now starting to get nervous as well and start

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Speaker 2: to speak out because I think the only future for

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Speaker 2: European industry if they really embrace this green innovative agenda.

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Speaker 2: So when they are starting this green deal and this race,

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Speaker 2: they should get nervous if Europe now after five years

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Speaker 2: is saying, oh, now we're going to change course, because

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Speaker 2: it's exactly the unpredictability, the unclarity where Europe is going

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Speaker 2: that it has been and it still is one of

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Speaker 2: the biggest problems for our European industry. So I think

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Speaker 2: it needs to become clear this campaign that the green

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Speaker 2: agenda and what we Greens are fighting for is probably

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Speaker 2: the best agenda for the future. Of our industry, and

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Speaker 2: that the Greens are the better ally of industry than

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Speaker 2: what conservatives claim to be.

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Speaker 1: But let's look at the EU's largest economy, Germany. The

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Speaker 1: Green Party was voted in with a big mandate in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. However, given all that has happened since

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine War, energy crisis, inflation, it's not been a

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Speaker 1: great time to be in power, most recently that showing

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Speaker 1: up in large amounts of the industrialization across the country.

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Speaker 1: It's not green policies alone that can be blamed, but

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Speaker 1: far right parties are certainly using it as ammunition to

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Speaker 1: say this is what can happen across the EU if

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Speaker 1: climate warriors go too far. So you are saying that

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Speaker 1: it is the green agenda that will get European industries

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Speaker 1: the future they need in the twenty first century. And yet,

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Speaker 1: given we are seeing industry shut down, especially in Germany,

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Speaker 1: the powerhouse of European industry, how do you fight against

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Speaker 1: that narrative?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think by first making very clear that the

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Speaker 2: closing down of industry in Germany is exactly because of

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Speaker 2: a lack of a green agenda or a very late

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Speaker 2: starting of the green agenda. Just too exam First of all,

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Speaker 2: why is there such a problem with the German industry.

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Speaker 2: It's the energy prices. Where does that come from? The

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Speaker 2: energy price? Of course, the inflation that we have seen

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Speaker 2: on energy is mainly because of the high reliance of

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Speaker 2: the German economy on Russian gas. That was a political

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Speaker 2: decision by the Conservatives. I mean, I do remember that

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Speaker 2: during the election campaign. It was Anneleina Beerboch who was

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Speaker 2: there sitting between two old gray men Lushet and Shoults,

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Speaker 2: and she was explaining the problem with nord Stream two,

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Speaker 2: and she exactly explained. Basically, she predicted the future. She

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Speaker 2: was explaining why nord Stream two was such a problem

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Speaker 2: and such a mistake. And you saw those two guys

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Speaker 2: looking at her like, ah, little girl, we're going to

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Speaker 2: explain your big politics one day, because you're totally wrong.

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Speaker 2: So it was the Greens exactly warning for making your

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Speaker 2: economy vulnerable independent of a Russian dictator. Right now, that's

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Speaker 2: what happened, not in two was canceled. But of course

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Speaker 2: when your entire economy is built on Russian cheap gas

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Speaker 2: and that suddenly changes, then you need to adjust massively.

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Speaker 2: I don't think any German government would have had an

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Speaker 2: easy job in doing this transition in a very fast way.

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Speaker 2: If Greens would have been in power much longer before

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Speaker 2: this transition could have been prepped, could have been phased in.

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Speaker 2: Now suddenly you were forced, because of those circumstances to

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Speaker 2: do your transition in a very short while, with of

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Speaker 2: course big consequences for energy. So that is a big

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Speaker 2: problem absolutely, But I wouldn't say that's a problem because

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Speaker 2: of green policies. I would say it's a problem because

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Speaker 2: of lack of green policies and heavy reliant on a

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Speaker 2: fossil economy that turned out to be much more vulnerable

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Speaker 2: than the Conservatives said. The other example is the German

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Speaker 2: car industry. The German car industry is of course very

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Speaker 2: proud of it. It's very strong and reliable cars, but

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Speaker 2: has always been built on the combustion engine. They had

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Speaker 2: been relying on this combustion engine for a very long while,

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Speaker 2: even to the extent that when we were having some

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Speaker 2: policies to clean it up, to clean the diesel up,

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Speaker 2: they decided to cheat on it instead of cleaning up

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Speaker 2: the diesel right diesel gate, and politicians were too weak

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Speaker 2: to act on that, so there was a kind of

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Speaker 2: a false impression to the German car industry that they

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Speaker 2: could do business as usual. For a very long while,

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Speaker 2: while the German car industry was basically a sleep in

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Speaker 2: its combustion engine, China was heavily investing in electrification, not

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Speaker 2: only in their batteries but also the entire supply chain,

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Speaker 2: so going to Africa, getting into its supply chain, relations

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Speaker 2: with countries in Latin America, et cetera. So really classic

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Speaker 2: industrial policy on the electric car. What do we see

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Speaker 2: now the biggest increase of exporting national cars China. So

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Speaker 2: again a lack of clear policies for innovation within Europe

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Speaker 2: is now the price where the German car industry is

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Speaker 2: suffering from. So I think what we see now is

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Speaker 2: that all these problems are coming together. So it's then,

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Speaker 2: of course a very nice narrative to blame the greens,

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Speaker 2: but I think you have to go into your analysis

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Speaker 2: and in the narrative behind it and see what went wrong,

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Speaker 2: and then I think it's quite often a lack of

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Speaker 2: green policies that is now hitting the German industry.

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Speaker 1: The far right parties have clearly a lot of fodder

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Speaker 1: right now to walk against green policies. The most recent

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Speaker 1: one that we've seen is farmers and agriculture. Now, let's

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Speaker 1: just take the case of your home country, the Netherlands.

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Speaker 1: The elections last year led to the far right party

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Speaker 1: under Gert Wilders winning the most number of seats, and

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Speaker 1: if I compress events just a little bit, because politics

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Speaker 1: can be complicated, one big reason for that electoral surprise

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Speaker 1: and huge loss for the leading center right party is

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Speaker 1: how the government handled deployment of some climate policies, specifically

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Speaker 1: those tied to nitrogen emissions, that were brought up with

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Speaker 1: little consultation with farmers, with very little time to actually

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Speaker 1: get the emissions reductions, leading to huge protests and change

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Speaker 1: in the mood of a whole country. Now those protests

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Speaker 1: have spread out across the EU. Why do you think

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Speaker 1: the far right has been able to capture the narrative

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Speaker 1: on the continent that has led the world on climate action. Yeah?

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Speaker 2: No, And that's of course the one billion dollar question,

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Speaker 2: to be very honest, because I do think that also

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Speaker 2: in the agriculture story, there are very clear reasons why

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Speaker 2: indeed politics has failed, but quite often it has been

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Speaker 2: conservative politics. And if I may just on agriculture, very briefly,

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Speaker 2: I think the biggest problem what we see there is

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Speaker 2: that on the one hand, in our economic policies, we

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Speaker 2: are forcing farmers to go to larger skill farming, partly

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Speaker 2: because of our subsidy system. You know, the more acres

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Speaker 2: you have, the more money you get, So in that

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Speaker 2: subsidy system, they are pushing farmers to make themselves bigger.

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Speaker 2: But also in our anti economy model, where are the

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Speaker 2: profits in the food chain. The profits are not with

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Speaker 2: the farmers. They are with the retailers. They are in

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Speaker 2: the financial sector. They are in the inputs right, so

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Speaker 2: of chemicals and fertilizer. That's where the profits are so

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Speaker 2: the big players. So for a farmer, in order to

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Speaker 2: get a little bit of the profit still enough to

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Speaker 2: feed their own family, they need to enlarge as well

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Speaker 2: because the profits are not enough anymore, So you just

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Speaker 2: produce more in order to reap some more profits. So

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Speaker 2: economically they are forced in large skilled farming. And then

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Speaker 2: comes in the green policies. The green policies are there

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Speaker 2: to address you need to deal with climate change, climate extremes,

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Speaker 2: so you need more diversified agriculture. Then of course for biodiversity,

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Speaker 2: you need more nature inclusive agriculture. So all these kind

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Speaker 2: of models are more small skill farming, more diverse, and

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Speaker 2: less monocultures. So basically, the economic system is pushing the

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Speaker 2: farm in a certain direction and the green policies are

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Speaker 2: pulling it in another direction. Then don't be surprised that

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Speaker 2: the farmer at a certain moment feels like, but where

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Speaker 2: do I need to go now? I don't know anymore.

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Speaker 2: You're already with the back against the wall, and then

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Speaker 2: you come up with new policies that are only making

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Speaker 2: it more complicated. I think then it's very easy for

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Speaker 2: a politician that is pretending that there is a simple solution,

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Speaker 2: and a simple solution is all those politicians are lying

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Speaker 2: to you. We have a simple answer to you. You

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Speaker 2: can just stay on your model that your parents worked

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Speaker 2: on and you don't have to change anything. That's a

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Speaker 2: very appealing story. If I feel the pressure and with

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Speaker 2: the back against the wall, I also would love to

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Speaker 2: have that story. I don't need to change. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's a lie which is not helping any farmer

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Speaker 2: for the future either. So I think what our biggest

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Speaker 2: challenge is, and here comes the challenges that our answers

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Speaker 2: are usually long term future oriented, but also you need

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Speaker 2: long answer like I'm giving now, whereas the counterpart is

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Speaker 2: just saying it's all nonsense, it's rubbish, and you don't

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Speaker 2: need to change anything and you're free. That's so much

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Speaker 2: easier and so much more appealing if, certainly, if you

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Speaker 2: are uncertain about your own future. And I think this

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Speaker 2: is really going to be our biggest challenge, whether we

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Speaker 2: can break that simplistic narrative of a false romantic you know,

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Speaker 2: back to the future, back to the past, and that

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Speaker 2: we as Greens need to be more compelling in selling

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Speaker 2: our long term answers.

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Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, it is kind of surprising when I looked

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Speaker 1: at numbers. A third of the EU's budget is dedicated

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Speaker 1: to providing subsidies to farmers. That is a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: Of course, if the e succeeds at it's current climate

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Speaker 1: plan by twenty forty, agriculture would account for the bulk

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Speaker 1: of the block screenous gas emissions. So if they are

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Speaker 1: currently believing the lies, and yet they have to be

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Speaker 1: part of the solution to reduce emissions because without that

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Speaker 1: there is no way to net zero. How do you

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Speaker 1: cut agricultural emissions without such a backlash.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's not an easy question, right, But I do

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Speaker 2: think that the first thing you need to do is

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Speaker 2: being honest. I mean, and this is a lesson from

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Speaker 2: the Netherlands, right. So our problem was not climate, but

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Speaker 2: it was nitrogen. As you said, So we have too

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Speaker 2: many nutrients. We are basically importing nutrients from the rest

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Speaker 2: of the world through feed, and then we raise the

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Speaker 2: cattle and we keep the shit literally in our country,

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Speaker 2: and we have an overload of our nutrients. And basically

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Speaker 2: that's our biggest problem. We are piling up nutrients in

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Speaker 2: our country. This was a model that we build upon

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Speaker 2: as Netherlands we have I've had quite some economic successes

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Speaker 2: with it, but it was also environmentally unsustainable. We all

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Speaker 2: know that for more than twenty years, read all the

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Speaker 2: reports that were there. However, politicians kept on promising the farmers, no,

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Speaker 2: you'll be fine, we will work on innovation. We will

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Speaker 2: you know, all kinds of cleaning technologies. They will solve

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Speaker 2: the problem of too many nutrients. Where As, of course,

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Speaker 2: in the end you can put it to the left

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Speaker 2: to the right. In the end, there are too many

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Speaker 2: nutrients in our country. So something needs to give. But

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Speaker 2: the politicians never gave that message to the farmers. And

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Speaker 2: even worse, the farmers meanwhile were stimulated to get bigger,

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Speaker 2: to grow bigger. The banks were giving loans in order

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Speaker 2: they would even get into bigger farm settings, etc. So

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Speaker 2: increasing debt, more remore stock in this model, and politicians

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Speaker 2: promising that there would be no problem until the courts

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Speaker 2: stepped in because at a certain moment you just have

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Speaker 2: some law that you can't stretch them anymore. And then

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Speaker 2: it's the court saying, sorry, but now you're not allowed anymore.

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Speaker 2: And suddenly the farmers from one day to the other

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Speaker 2: where not their model basically was called bankrupt. Then of

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Speaker 2: course all those farmers were like, but sorry, I indebted myself,

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Speaker 2: so what do I do now? So basically the lying

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Speaker 2: of politicians, the falls pretending that they don't need to change,

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Speaker 2: only increase the crisis we are having in the Netherlands,

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Speaker 2: not only environmentally, but certainly also for the state of

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Speaker 2: where farmers are now in the Netherlands. If now in Europe,

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Speaker 2: we're going to make that same mistake on climate and

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Speaker 2: basically the Commission, when they are now discussing their twenty

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Speaker 2: forty target agriculture is hardly mentioned it's kind of okay,

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Speaker 2: don't mention it. That's exactly making the same mistake as

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Speaker 2: we did in the Netherlands. By not mentioning it, by

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Speaker 2: not talking about it, the problem is not going away.

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Speaker 2: And this is my biggest warning also to farmers. You

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Speaker 2: may turn against the Greens because they are ready to

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Speaker 2: talk to you and say, hey, let's change the model

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Speaker 2: and how can we do that. But you probably have

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Speaker 2: a better ally with the Greens because they are willing

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Speaker 2: to talk about it now, and also put your subsidy

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Speaker 2: scheme towards it instead of politicians that are pretending that

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Speaker 2: there is no problem. They give you a false hope

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Speaker 2: you can continue like it is. But then in five

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Speaker 2: ten years time, suddenly you will get the heart message

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Speaker 2: and then the change is much more complicated. And this

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Speaker 2: is really the biggest lessons for Europe on climate. Don't

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Speaker 2: make the same mistake as we did in the Netherlands.

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Speaker 1: Europe has a head start in the climate RAITs, but

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Speaker 1: the rest of the world is starting to catch up.

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Speaker 1: After the break, Baz tells me how Europe can stay competitive.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, if you like this episode, please

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Speaker 1: take a moment to rate or review the show on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This is a worry that is

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Speaker 1: not just there in agriculture but all kinds of economic

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Speaker 1: systems where people want an orderly transition. There is a

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Speaker 1: polluting technology and then there's a clean technology, and you

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Speaker 1: want to move from the polluting to the clean and

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Speaker 1: as smooth away as possible. That requires time. And so

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Speaker 1: you're saying, because the Netherlands dragged its feet on trying

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Speaker 1: to deploy policies to reduce nitrogen emissions and then the

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Speaker 1: courts force them to suddenly bring those policies down, that's

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Speaker 1: what led to the Blackclash, and now if you do

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Speaker 1: the same thing with the twenty forty targets, the EU

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Speaker 1: could be facing a similar tragedy. Absolutely, But talking about

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Speaker 1: emissions is the hard part right now. It's the narrative

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Speaker 1: that if you fight for just the emissions, then you're

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Speaker 1: going to take our earnings away, our income away. It's

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Speaker 1: the narrative that is winning. So how do you break

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Speaker 1: the gridlock? You're making a logically smart point, but you

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Speaker 1: still need to be able to cut through and actually

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Speaker 1: have those conversations what will allow you to cut through.

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Speaker 2: But I think that's the classic part where if we

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Speaker 2: greens would only talk about emissions and reduction percentages, etc.

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Speaker 2: Indeed them are not cutting through. I think we also

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Speaker 2: need to talk about Okay, but how can we make

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Speaker 2: sure that the farmers can have an honors living. And

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Speaker 2: this is also by addressing the economic system. This is

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Speaker 2: also by addressing the problems in the entire food chain.

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Speaker 2: And this is also addressing the power position that retailers

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Speaker 2: are having right and until now. And it's those same

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Speaker 2: conservative politicians who are claiming I'm on your side. They

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Speaker 2: never dare to break the economic power of retailers and banks,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. And this is exactly why the Greens are

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Speaker 2: also always making it the very clear case a green

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Speaker 2: deal can only survive if it's a socially just green deal,

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Speaker 2: and for agriculture, I think it's a case in point,

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Speaker 2: very clearly.

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Speaker 1: So one of the biggest reasons for Europe's success in

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Speaker 1: reducing emissions is down to the emissions trading system that's

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Speaker 1: provided businesses with certainty about the direction of travel and

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Speaker 1: does incentivize them to cut emissions. So far, it's been

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Speaker 1: focused on power production, on industries, aviation shipping. Now it's

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Speaker 1: set to expand to road transport and buildings. How do

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Speaker 1: you think agriculture could be brought into the emissions trading

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Speaker 1: system because that could prove to be one way in

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Speaker 1: which emissions are reduced in the most economically efficient.

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Speaker 2: I challenge you there because this mantra that it's the

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Speaker 2: ETS the cornerstone that is providing the success in the clarity.

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Speaker 2: This is exactly what I would like to challenge, because

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Speaker 2: the only clarity that companies are having on ETS is Okay,

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Speaker 2: I will get less allowances in Europe. So yes, probably

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Speaker 2: we are going to meet the ETS targets for twenty forty,

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Speaker 2: which is zero emissions, because the allowances go to zero

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Speaker 2: in twenty thirty nine. So you have that certainty, but

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Speaker 2: then you do not know exactly. But what does that

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Speaker 2: mean for my business case? I might also leave Europe

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Speaker 2: because then within Europe you have zero emissions, but the

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Speaker 2: industry is not in Europe anymore. And this is exactly

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Speaker 2: the problem by only relying on ETS. So it's very

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Speaker 2: good to give carbon pollution a price, but it's insufficient

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Speaker 2: to act. And I think the best example is energy,

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Speaker 2: because why are we so successful in our energy transition?

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Speaker 2: Is that really because of ETS? The big steps in

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Speaker 2: the energy transition were being made in the Zeros and

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Speaker 2: in the beginning of the twenty tens that's when the

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Speaker 2: real transition started and now we are all benefiting from that.

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Speaker 2: In that period, the ETS price was close to zero.

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Speaker 2: It was not the ETS price that was driving it.

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Speaker 2: It was policies on the renewable energy directive. It was

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Speaker 2: policies in Germany really, by the way, by Greens in

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Speaker 2: government in the nineties, by pushing for the renewable developments

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Speaker 2: that really made the price of renewable energy go down

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Speaker 2: to the levels we're talking we're seeing now. So it

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Speaker 2: was not ETS, it was policies on renewable energy that

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Speaker 2: was driving that transition, and that was the most successful

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Speaker 2: policy I think we've had in Europe.

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Speaker 1: But one other way to argue for the ETS here

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Speaker 1: is that the economic sectors that cannot move outside Europe

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Speaker 1: are the ones that would benefit most from an emissions

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Speaker 1: trading system. Power production has to happen on this continent.

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Speaker 1: You can't be producing power in the US and then

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Speaker 1: transporting it to Europe. The same thing goes with agriculture. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you could import a bunch of food and that happened

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Speaker 1: doing that but a lot of the food will have

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Speaker 1: to be produced domestically for it to be price competitive,

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Speaker 1: And so isn't it a good case for the ads

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Speaker 1: to actually be applied to agriculture.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not necessarily saying that we don't need a

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Speaker 2: cer two price. My only debate here is if we're

436
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: only going to rely on a heer two price, we

437
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: will be doing insufficient. And that's the same with agriculture

438
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: because also there, yes, I do think that there is

439
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 2: an economic problem with the incentives we're giving but not

440
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 2: always giving the right incentives. So yes, a carbon price

441
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: could help there, but it will be insufficient, like it

442
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: is insufficient for our industry. Our industry doesn't only need

443
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 2: to know what the carbon price is going to be

444
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: in the future, and they also need to know what

445
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: kind of energy will there be, because it matters a

446
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: lot what kind of energy infrastructure will there be in

447
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 2: order that I know how my production process will look like.

448
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: So I'm very nervous and very negative about the future

449
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,239
Speaker 2: of our industry. But that's because of the lack of

450
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: these kinds of policies, and that's where for me, green

451
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: industrial policy come in.

452
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: Heavy industry does have a challenge in front of it. Right,

453
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: if you're going to reduce emissions from steel or cement,

454
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: you have very few options, and those options are expensive,

455
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: especially where the technology is today. Agriculture is often considered

456
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: as a hard to abate sector, but if you look

457
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 1: at the solution set, it's actually much easier to try

458
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: and tackle emissions from agriculture, which could even become a

459
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: carbon sync. The very solutions to try and tackle some

460
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: of the biggest challenges that we face around biodiversity, around

461
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: soil are the solutions that will also reduce emissions, not

462
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: just emissions that are produced on the farm, but perhaps

463
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: even make the farm carbon negative. And finally, unlike in

464
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 1: the industry where subsidies or technology development weren't available, agriculture

465
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: already has so much that is being supported through subsidies

466
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: they could be redirected in a sensible way. So the

467
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: conversation around agriculture, it seems to me, has been made

468
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: to be perhaps considered too difficult, but it isn't. It's

469
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: just that it needs to be done in the right way.

470
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: That there needs to be a deadlock that has to

471
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: be broken, and once you do break it, you could

472
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: actually find solutions much faster.

473
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I still coming back to the points of

474
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: how do farmers feel that they can have an honest

475
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: earning And this is now where subsidies are being seen

476
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 2: almost as something they have the right to because otherwise

477
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: they don't earn enough. Right, So as long as that

478
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: feeling is there, talking about redirecting subsidies will just cause

479
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: this protest. So I absolutely agree with you. I think

480
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: we can do much better things with our subsidies.

481
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: And if we look into the future, the twenty forty

482
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: climate targets that are not yet in law but are

483
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: proposed to be ninety percent reduction relative to nineteen ninety

484
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: levels are according to science, still on the lower ambition side,

485
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: but according to where we are currently pretty ambitious. And

486
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: yet because of all these protests in Germany and Belgium

487
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: and France and well where or not, the farmer protests

488
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: have caused the European Commission to delete mentions of agriculture

489
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: in those targets. One of those deleted mentions is about

490
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: healthier diets and reducing meat consumption. Of course, it's not

491
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: said reduce meat consumption. It's a euphemistic phrase around alternative proteins.

492
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 1: But it's not a problem that's going away. So if

493
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: you think about it in the future, what must European

494
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: politicians do to even have a conversation with citizens about

495
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: changing diets.

496
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: Well, I would say this is exactly the discussion you

497
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: need to have. So by deleting it from a document,

498
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: that's one thing, right, And I mean, I think it's

499
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: a mistake, but okay, it's only a document, right. It

500
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: matters now what we're going to do in the next term,

501
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: and that's why these elections in June are so crucial

502
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: because it determines basically how this decade we will steer

503
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: some of the changes that will take shape in the

504
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: thirties and forties, and will determine whether we will reach

505
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: climate neutrality as an economy yes or no. Soing the

506
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: coming five years are very fundamental there, and I think

507
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: in the agriculture system, but this is again also broader.

508
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: Politicians are always afraid to talk about consumption. So we

509
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: have a lot of technocratic politicians who love to talk

510
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: about pricing. That sounds very neutral. You're just price pollution

511
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: and it will all be solved, right, and we don't

512
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: need to do anything. Okay, then maybe on top we

513
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: do a policy for setting some standards, that's probably then

514
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: the max we can go. But we also know, for example,

515
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: in cars, again maybe we need to discuss a bit

516
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: of future on SUVs because otherwise, yes, it's great that

517
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: we are having more and more electric cars, but if

518
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: meanwhile we are going to have big electric cars, we

519
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: have a resource problem. So maybe we should talk about

520
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: the size of the cars. And with food, well, let's

521
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 2: be honest, we need to talk about our diets, not

522
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: only because of climate, also because of our health. Every

523
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: doctor will tell us that we have a two you know,

524
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: calorie full diet, so that it's not healthy either. So

525
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: maybe the combination of health, environment and our own sustainability,

526
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: we need to have these kind of discussions. But that

527
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: means that politicians need to get out of their comfort zone.

528
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: And probably this is the point where we as Greens

529
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,479
Speaker 2: are more open to have those discussions out of your

530
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: comfort zone. But then, of course, in times when people

531
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: already feel a bit insecure and are not you know,

532
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: so positive about the future, then talking about what you eat,

533
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: how you eat, or get real and this is where

534
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: you know, extreme right is kind of you know, the

535
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: Greens want to take everything away from you. Even how

536
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: you eat well, then of course you get the reaction

537
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,719
Speaker 2: that we're seeing. So I don't think that in this

538
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: campaign we will put consumption at the forefront of our campaign,

539
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: because it's quite suicidal in the current mood. But I

540
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: do think that we cannot escape these of discussions if

541
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: you look into the future, and I think that's something

542
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: where politicians need to be honest about as well.

543
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: Now, if you look at the history of the Greens,

544
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: for the longest time, you stood in the wings pushing

545
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: parties to take climate seriously. Over the past few years,

546
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: finally that case has sunk in, and the EU as

547
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: a whole has done more than most countries and most

548
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: regions to set out clear targets and clear policies, maybe

549
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: not the perfect policies, but at least some concrete policies.

550
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: The rest of the world is starting to catch up.

551
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: You said it's a race. Now, China has already been

552
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: investing a ton in green technologies. The US is the

553
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: most recent entrant, with the US's Inflation Reduction Act. Now

554
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: it comes as hundreds of billions of dollars of tax credits.

555
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: It's all carrots, very little stick. But then the criticism

556
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: is the EU's Green deal is, on the other hand,

557
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: mostly stick very little carrots. That tension is starting to

558
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: play out with some green businesses choosing to go to

559
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: the US rather than scale up here in the EU.

560
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: What do you think EU's response should be to the IRA.

561
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: Well, I do think that. I mean, in general, it's

562
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 2: going to be difficult to rin this subsidy race, right,

563
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a bit of a danger that we

564
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: will see a global subsidy race and then who throws

565
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: most of the money at it. But it's absolutely true

566
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: that Europe needs to develop an investment program because that's

567
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: basically the carrot we're talking about. But a European investment

568
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: program can only work if you also really have a

569
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: European industrial program, and that's our biggest problem right now.

570
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: We are still having twenty seven member states who think

571
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: they can have the luxury of looking at their own

572
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: industry and thinking, okay, what can I do now for

573
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: the future, and then you see what's happening right now.

574
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: Germany can throw most of its money at it, but

575
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: it's not helping anyone because we need to have European

576
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: strategy on it. And this is also for me very

577
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 2: clear that we are only going to develop a credible

578
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 2: carot for industry if there is a credible European strategy behind.

579
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: So it's not only money, it is also money, but

580
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: it's certainly and it starts much more with a European

581
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: strategy that is absolutely lacking up.

582
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: One place where solutions are being focused on, which is

583
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: to try and move the German auto industry to make

584
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: more electric cars, for example, or to try and figure

585
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: out how to deal with the US Inflation Reduction Act

586
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: and its huge amount of subsidies, is to create policies

587
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: that look to the rest of the world a little

588
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: bit protectionist. One of the ways is to do a

589
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: carbon border adjustment mechanism where you actually tax imports coming

590
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: from say China or India because they have higher carbon

591
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: intensity relative to the same product being produced here in Europe,

592
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: where the European producers as are paying a carbon price.

593
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 1: How do you think protectionism in a world that is

594
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: trying to deal with the global challenge is going to look?

595
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: And you know what must be done to ensure that

596
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: even as these policies are sensible and required, they're done

597
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: in a way that are politically acceptable around with your allies.

598
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 2: No I think that's a good question, because I do

599
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: think there needs to be found a new balance here

600
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: in kind of, you know, a global world where we

601
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: as a world are working together and getting to the

602
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 2: best technologies in the most efficient way wherever you are

603
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: in the world, and you are dependent of each other.

604
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: But at the same time, Europe has been quite naive

605
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: by thinking that the entire world is on its way

606
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: towards this global market, which is not the case. First

607
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: of all, the United States have never been dead. They

608
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 2: always claim to be this very liberalized country, but America

609
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: is totally not a liberal country. There, it's a very

610
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: protectionist country. But at the same time, also China is

611
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: of course always very very industrial policy, so it's making

612
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: clear that their older policies are kind of in the

613
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 2: line of creating these production chains where China can profit from.

614
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 2: And on top of that, you have a Russia who

615
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 2: is willing to misuse the power once they are having

616
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: power over you, be it with gas. So this shows

617
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: that the world is not a bright place and Europe

618
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 2: has been maybe a bit too naive and thinking that

619
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: we are in the direction of this globalized economy. I

620
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: think that deserves and requires rebalancing, and that means that

621
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: there will be some reshuring and some more protectionist policies

622
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: of Europe to make sure that the industry that we

623
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: want to maintain within Europe is also protected while we

624
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: are asking them to green and to innovate.

625
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, EU countries spent about three hundred

626
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: and fifty billion dollars on all things energy transition. This

627
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: is every solar panel, winter turbine, electric car, This is

628
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 1: government spending, private spending. In the next decade, the EU

629
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 1: targets say that it will have to spend one point

630
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: six trillion dollars on its own between twenty thirty one

631
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: and twenty forty each year. That's how much the world

632
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: as a whole spent on the energy transition in twenty

633
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: twenty three. So what do you think that you can

634
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: specifically do over the next few years to increase investments

635
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: at the pace needed.

636
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: Well, I think there are two things. First of all,

637
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 2: we need a fundamental debate whether our public debt is

638
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: now really our biggest problem, and I tend to say

639
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: it's not our biggest problem. It's also very clear that

640
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: if you look at the debt levels we're seeing in Europe,

641
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: they are still lower than what's there in Japan or

642
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 2: the United States, and even China is now increasing its

643
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: debt levels. So I think we have a bit of

644
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: an unhealthy obsession with lowering our public debt, which in

645
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 2: a time when we are basically restructuring our whole economy

646
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: in a couple of decades, and on the top of that,

647
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: we have a security challenge with a neighbor that is

648
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: willing to fight us, and on top of that we

649
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,479
Speaker 2: have a very vulnerable Ukraine next to us that needs

650
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: a lot of money to rebuild the country. Basically, these

651
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: are really indeed trillions of euros that need to be found.

652
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 2: So if at the same time, then we're going to say, oh,

653
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: but we also need to cut our public debt, and

654
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 2: we need to we need to have the stability and

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00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: growth back to even tougher. That's one big problem we're

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00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: having which needs to change. That's on the one hand,

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00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 2: I think we need to reinvent the story on why

658
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: are public investments a good thing and not only a

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00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: bad thing. That's one part. The other part is of

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00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: course redirecting some of the bad spending that we're seeing.

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00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: We're still having hundreds of billions of fossil subsidies. So

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00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: while we are promoting a clean economy that is going

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00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 2: away from fossils, we are meanwhile still subsidizing fossils. That's

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00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: of course an untenable city cuation. And here we also

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00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: need to look at the redirecting of financial flows, where

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00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: a lot of money is still going in the wrong direction.

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00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 2: And I think that combination, that's a dual agenda that

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00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: we are needing right now. So in the end, it

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00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: really boils down to political will that is still there insufficiently,

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00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: and that brings me back to the point where maybe

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00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: greens are still needed.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, buzz, welcome me. Thank you for listening to Zero.

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00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,040
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Speaker 1: You can get in touch at zero port at Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot Net. Zero's producer is Mighty lirau Oarty. Music is

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00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: composed by Wonderly Special Thanks to Kira Bendrim, John Aingeer,

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Speaker 1: and Alsia Clinton. I am Akshatrati back soon.