Speaker 1: You know, I have been working with glaciers for decades now,
Speaker 1: and I'm going back to the same glaciers in the Arctic.
Speaker 1: These are glaciers that I have come to know year
Speaker 1: after years, as friends, as physical bodies. I can close
Speaker 1: my eyes and tell you how these glaciers smell and
Speaker 1: sound and feel. That was scientists Dr M. Jackson, who
Speaker 1: has made glaciers her life's work. Glaciers, she says, are
Speaker 1: our global library. They reveal Earth's past and future. But
Speaker 1: while glaciers are in trouble, Dr Jackson isn't ready to
Speaker 1: give in to pessimism, and she tells us how we
Speaker 1: all can help. I'm a land vere and this is
Speaker 1: senecas on women to hear. We are bringing you one
Speaker 1: hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making women.
Speaker 1: You need to hear. Dr M. Jackson is an expert
Speaker 1: on glaciers and the Arctic for the National Geographic Society.
Speaker 1: She's written two books about glaciers, including The Secret Lives
Speaker 1: of Glaciers. Glacier, she says, are vital to protecting the
Speaker 1: world from climate change, and she's going to give us
Speaker 1: a whole new way to think about them. Listen and
Speaker 1: learn why Dr M Jackson is one of Seneca's women
Speaker 1: to hear. I'm speaking today with Dr M Jackson, geographer
Speaker 1: and expert on glaciers. Welcome, Dr Jackson, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for having me today. Now you're a self described
Speaker 1: glacier nerd as well as an arctic expert. So tell
Speaker 1: us what is a glacier? That is, what makes a
Speaker 1: glacier a glacier? And why are glaciers so critical to
Speaker 1: life on Earth? That is a great question and a
Speaker 1: huge one. So we have our classic scientific definition of
Speaker 1: what a glacier is, which is a perennial body of
Speaker 1: land ice that exists, right, But what really is that?
Speaker 1: What is land ice? What does it mean to exist perennially? Right?
Speaker 1: So we have this scientific definition, but across our whole planet,
Speaker 1: glaciers means so much more to many many different people.
Speaker 1: And from a scientific lens, I think about what is
Speaker 1: a glacier? It's our global library. These are snowflakes that
Speaker 1: have fallen over the last hundreds of years, thousands of years,
Speaker 1: millions of years. That has each one falls, it records
Speaker 1: what our planet is doing, what our pollen county is,
Speaker 1: what our temperature is, what our sentiments are and it
Speaker 1: records it for a global library. And that's what I
Speaker 1: think about every time I interact with a new glacier,
Speaker 1: because the glaciers they're not only record, but they influence.
Speaker 1: Why are glaciers crucial to life on Earth? Because of
Speaker 1: how they impact our global world? Glaciers they influence our
Speaker 1: local weather patterns, They make weather, Isn't that crazy? They
Speaker 1: influence how much water is on our planet today, whether
Speaker 1: our planet is as it is right now rather wet,
Speaker 1: high ocean levels, lots of rain and precipitation, or when
Speaker 1: we look in our past we can be much drier.
Speaker 1: The weather you experience when you walk outside of your house,
Speaker 1: it's brought to you by your local glaciers. Wow, it's
Speaker 1: just so fascinating to hear you talk about this. So
Speaker 1: given how important glaciers are for all the reasons you
Speaker 1: just stated, what is the condition of the world's glaciers
Speaker 1: right now and what does that tell us about climate change? Yes,
Speaker 1: so lots of different ways to look at glaciers and
Speaker 1: what their conditions are right now. We can say we
Speaker 1: have about two hundred thousand glaciers, then it wide and
Speaker 1: if you start including smaller glaciers like little glacier ats.
Speaker 1: We could say we have about four glaciers and that
Speaker 1: number it can be important in some ways because when
Speaker 1: we look at our glaciers, we can say we're losing
Speaker 1: our mass. Our glaciers globally there are exceptions, but globally
Speaker 1: are getting smaller and smaller as they respond to increasing
Speaker 1: climatic changes and decrease in size. Our number of glaciers, though,
Speaker 1: it is actually increasing because our larger glacier systems are
Speaker 1: breaking down. So when you see headlines in the future
Speaker 1: that say, hey, we have more glaciers on this planet,
Speaker 1: always be skeptical. We are losing mass as our larger
Speaker 1: glacier systems are breaking apart. So we have so many
Speaker 1: glaciers melting now correct, we have the majority of our
Speaker 1: planets ice is melting. And what that tells us about
Speaker 1: climate change is that the impacts of climatic changes are increasing.
Speaker 1: So tell us about your work. How much time, for example,
Speaker 1: do you spend on actual glaciers, What do you love
Speaker 1: about it? And what was your most memorable or uninspiring
Speaker 1: moment on a glacier? So those are all big questions.
Speaker 1: Are glaciers tend to be located in pretty remote places
Speaker 1: on our planet, and so for me to go out
Speaker 1: there and work on those glaciers, UH is no small commitment.
Speaker 1: It's not a day trip. When I'm working on glaciers
Speaker 1: in Antarctic, I've to get there, or in the Arctic,
Speaker 1: i have to get there. And so if you're there,
Speaker 1: you're going to be spending some time. In an ideal world,
Speaker 1: I'm out in the field several months of the year.
Speaker 1: COVID has made that really really difficult, UH, And in
Speaker 1: the future, I hope to get to spend more time.
Speaker 1: If you're in places like Iceland, where you have a
Speaker 1: glacier in your backyard, you could go out, as I
Speaker 1: have done countless times, go out do what I need
Speaker 1: to do on the ice, and then come home and
Speaker 1: have a hot, hot cup of coffee and that lovely.
Speaker 1: But that's pretty pretty rare. What's it like to be
Speaker 1: an Antarctica doing this work? You know, I have been
Speaker 1: working with glaciers for decades now, and I'm going back
Speaker 1: to the same glaciers in Antarctica. In the Arctic. These
Speaker 1: are glaciers that I have come to know year after years,
Speaker 1: as friends, as physical bodies. I can close my eyes
Speaker 1: and tell you how these glaciers smell and sound and feel.
Speaker 1: And I'm going back each year, and they are deteriorating
Speaker 1: faster than I have ever seen, and a lot of
Speaker 1: times it reminds me really strongly of what I experienced
Speaker 1: my family. My parents passed away from cancers and watching
Speaker 1: their bodies respond to cancer and slowly deteriorate. I have
Speaker 1: seen how similar that is as I watch these glaciers
Speaker 1: I have known for decades physically deteriorate and dwindle away.
Speaker 1: It's one of the most amazing places I have been
Speaker 1: is ice field environments. But it is also the hardest
Speaker 1: because they changed so rapidly today. What a metaphor? Do
Speaker 1: you have a favorite glaciers? Is that a legitimate question?
Speaker 1: Does one have a favorite glacier? You know, oftentimes when
Speaker 1: we say the word glacier, we are failing for the
Speaker 1: phenomenon of ice on our planet because it's this one
Speaker 1: word that almost homogenizes ice. Most of the glaciers I
Speaker 1: work on are so dissimilar from one another that I've
Speaker 1: had to come to know them as as individuals with
Speaker 1: their own unique sounds and smells and response rates on
Speaker 1: the coast of Iceland. There's glaciers lined up just like
Speaker 1: the teeth of a comb. But each one of those
Speaker 1: glaciers is different and responds differently. So if I'm if
Speaker 1: I'm looking at say they any glacier in South Georgia
Speaker 1: down in the sub Antarctic, that glacier, I love it,
Speaker 1: but it is so different than if I'm on Hanniberg
Speaker 1: Jocolt in Iceland, or if I'm on the Mauth Subpoena
Speaker 1: glacier in Alaska. Every one of them is so different,
Speaker 1: and I I try to remember and keep in the
Speaker 1: front of my thinking how lucky I am to experience
Speaker 1: these glaciers as they are now, because if you and
Speaker 1: I go out there a year from now, all of
Speaker 1: this ice will be different. Senecas one hundred women to
Speaker 1: hear will be back after the short break, Can we
Speaker 1: go back for a moment, because I just love listening
Speaker 1: to you and hearing your enthusiasm for what you do.
Speaker 1: What was your childhood like did you always want to
Speaker 1: be a scientist? And you know what was the moment
Speaker 1: you knew that glaciers would be a big part of
Speaker 1: your life's work? Mm hmm, you know, I didn't grow
Speaker 1: up knowing that I wanted to be a scientist, nor
Speaker 1: did I grow up knowing I could be a scientist. Uh.
Speaker 1: When I was young, I lived very rurally and I'd
Speaker 1: never met another scientist, let alone a female scientist. That
Speaker 1: just wasn't part of my world. My father was a
Speaker 1: welder across the state of Alaska. He built a lot
Speaker 1: of infrastructure and worked on the pipeline, and my mom
Speaker 1: was a farmer. I grew up very surprised that I'd
Speaker 1: even encountered The next year, the next year, the next
Speaker 1: year at school, UM I was going to be a
Speaker 1: firefighter in a medic in Southeast Alaska. That was the
Speaker 1: career I had out for myself. I didn't know that
Speaker 1: I can imagine more than that, and I didn't know
Speaker 1: what was possible. And in my late teens early twenties,
Speaker 1: I started working as a backcountry guide in Southeast Alaska,
Speaker 1: which has huge eye systems, and I wanted to be
Speaker 1: a better guide. I wanted to be able to explain
Speaker 1: the ice that I was working on to our clients.
Speaker 1: And I googled things, and I looked on Wikipedia, and
Speaker 1: I read books, but so much of what I was
Speaker 1: experiencing with boots on the ground, crampons on the on
Speaker 1: the ice I could not find explanations for. And right
Speaker 1: about that time I was called out to work as
Speaker 1: a guide for a bunch of National Geographic borders. They
Speaker 1: were doing photography work, and if you can imagine when
Speaker 1: you're young, I was in my early twenties. All I
Speaker 1: knew about these photographers was that they worked for the
Speaker 1: National Geographic Society, and in my mind I thought they
Speaker 1: must know everything. And so I asked all of these
Speaker 1: bird specialists about things I saw on glaciers. I didn't
Speaker 1: understand the distinctions and science, I didn't understand disciplines. And
Speaker 1: what I still today think of as a big stroke
Speaker 1: of luck is that these particular bird photographers were incredibly
Speaker 1: kind and they did not tell me that they couldn't
Speaker 1: answer my questions and ended the conversation. Instead, they told
Speaker 1: me these questions I was asking, those are great questions,
Speaker 1: and that I had the ability to go answer them.
Speaker 1: And then one person in particular, a man named Ford Cochrane,
Speaker 1: he continued to email with me. He continued to encourage me,
Speaker 1: and the year after year he encouraged me to go
Speaker 1: get to school, to get an education, to get a
Speaker 1: master's degree, to get a doctorate degree. When I needed work,
Speaker 1: he could help me with jobs to pay for schooling.
Speaker 1: I can tell you today I am the product of
Speaker 1: incredible mentorship. A lot of it tie back to the
Speaker 1: National Geographic Society. I today think a lot about that
Speaker 1: as I spend time working as a basically as a
Speaker 1: science communicator and an outreach scientist, because when I was
Speaker 1: young again, I didn't know science was an option for me,
Speaker 1: and so it's really important that I spend time with
Speaker 1: young children and show them what a scientist can look like.
Speaker 1: Everyone doesn't have to be a scientist, but I want
Speaker 1: them to know it's an option, Especially in a field
Speaker 1: like mine, which is so predominantly filled with white men.
Speaker 1: There aren't that many female scientists that study glaciers, and
Speaker 1: so I want to change that. Well, speaking of females scientists,
Speaker 1: I know you've said that you put a feminist lens
Speaker 1: on what you do. What does that mean and why
Speaker 1: is it so important to do that? Yeah, I do
Speaker 1: put a feminist lens on all of my work and
Speaker 1: how I want to be in the world. What that
Speaker 1: specifically to my science is really that more voices are welcome,
Speaker 1: and more diversity is welcome, and I take a very
Speaker 1: broad view of that. When you think about the history
Speaker 1: of glaciology, this is a field of science that has
Speaker 1: been dominated for over a century by Western, white male practitioners,
Speaker 1: and that has given us amazing information and science, but
Speaker 1: it is also severely limited. Who can talk about ice
Speaker 1: and in what form. Most of glaciology today still lends
Speaker 1: itself to measuring, monitoring, and predicting glacier ice. But what
Speaker 1: happens when you ask a bunch of artists to come
Speaker 1: out and paint ice, to do incredible different views of ice?
Speaker 1: What happens if you ask indigenous people who have been
Speaker 1: living with glaciers for millennia what their views on that
Speaker 1: science is? What happens if you ask young women what
Speaker 1: their views are? What happens if we incredibly in span
Speaker 1: this field to include as many different perspectives. We're losing
Speaker 1: our world sies right now, and so for me, I
Speaker 1: don't think we have the time to have a limited view.
Speaker 1: We need as many voices at the table looking at
Speaker 1: our eyes because that's gonna walk us towards solutions. You know,
Speaker 1: it's been very tough listening to the realities that we
Speaker 1: confront with climate change, as you've articulated them, just from
Speaker 1: the perspective of your work on glaciers, and given how
Speaker 1: rapid and overwhelming climate change is, what can our individual
Speaker 1: listeners do to improve things? Because I'm sure they share
Speaker 1: great concern but are frankly not fully understanding of what
Speaker 1: could make a difference by them as individuals. I would ask,
Speaker 1: what can your listeners do? I think that's a really
Speaker 1: difficult question. That is a pretty simple solution. I want
Speaker 1: your listeners to push back on what they've been told.
Speaker 1: The narratives that we are told are so often unimaginative,
Speaker 1: and they limit what can be possible. I am tired
Speaker 1: of walking into a room and telling people I'm a
Speaker 1: glaciologist and they snicker and say we'll all be a
Speaker 1: historian soon, as if the future of ice is predetermined. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's not. We have such an impossible future that we
Speaker 1: can imagine. I'm actually hopeful for glaciers. And why I'm
Speaker 1: hopeful for glaciers. As a scientist, I have absolutely no
Speaker 1: problem conflating the personal with the professional. I think a
Speaker 1: lot about my life. I've spent the majority of my
Speaker 1: adult life being told I would never have children. And
Speaker 1: after years and years of IVS and using the scientific
Speaker 1: tools that we have developed, and having a lot of
Speaker 1: heartbreak and sending to the narratives of being told of
Speaker 1: what is possible and impossible for my future, my husband
Speaker 1: and I now have a small child, m I was
Speaker 1: able to redefine what is possible for me. When we
Speaker 1: think about glaciers, were told they are melting and there's
Speaker 1: nothing we can do. The future is set. All glaciers
Speaker 1: need is snow, cold temperatures, and time. That's the basic
Speaker 1: recipe to grow a glacier. Today, if we managed to
Speaker 1: get our temperatures down, our glaciers could respond, and we
Speaker 1: could live in a world with ice. Now, uh, we
Speaker 1: add science there and the splash of cold water reality,
Speaker 1: which is, even if we got our temperatures down, our
Speaker 1: glaciers take take a while to respond. And so the
Speaker 1: work I do to advocate for ice to say we
Speaker 1: can live in a world with glaciers. That's a world
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna see. That's a world my son finning
Speaker 1: and is an ever going to see. But his children
Speaker 1: might see that we can live in a world with ice,
Speaker 1: and our glaciers can grow back, but it's not going
Speaker 1: to happen overnight. But it is still incredibly important to
Speaker 1: think about the next generations and what their planet looks like.
Speaker 1: And that's the work we do today, is redefining what
Speaker 1: is possible and how we imagine a future. So I
Speaker 1: would tell your individual listeners to not give into the
Speaker 1: narratives that our future is set, that we cannot combat
Speaker 1: climatic changes. We absolutely can, and we begin each day
Speaker 1: and we put our mind to it and know that
Speaker 1: we can make a difference. You know, just listening to you,
Speaker 1: you have so much enthusiasm for your profession, so much
Speaker 1: affection truly for what you do. And just given your
Speaker 1: last answer, let me end on this note. Where do
Speaker 1: you find optimism? Clearly it's in your work and what
Speaker 1: you just said, But can you expand on that what
Speaker 1: gives you such hope? I think I get a lot
Speaker 1: of hope from the ice itself. It is so resilient
Speaker 1: and even though a lot of the glaciers I work
Speaker 1: with are dissolving, that is not a permanent state, that
Speaker 1: is not the final chapter. And I think too often
Speaker 1: we think of our time skills in these these hours,
Speaker 1: these days, these these tweets and instead thinking about how
Speaker 1: a future might look what the next years might look like.
Speaker 1: I have the power to shape that. I have the
Speaker 1: power to add a lot more to the conversation, So
Speaker 1: to your listeners, So do the glaciers, the oceans, the rivers,
Speaker 1: the forest that we live with that group conversation that
Speaker 1: redefines the future we move into. I think about that
Speaker 1: and I get a lot of hope. Wonderfully, said Dr
Speaker 1: m Jackson, Thank you so much for being with us today,
Speaker 1: and thank you for all that you do to care
Speaker 1: about our glaciers and to care about addressing climate change
Speaker 1: as well. It was a pleasure to be able to
Speaker 1: talk to you. Thank you, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: What an incredible way to think about glaciers and all
Speaker 1: life on Earth. There are three things I took from
Speaker 1: that conversation. First, how fascinating to realize that glaciers are
Speaker 1: not only vital, but that each one is unique. But
Speaker 1: they are also changing quickly. The glaciers we know today
Speaker 1: may be very different the next time we see them. Second,
Speaker 1: looking back on her career, Dr Jackson reminds us once
Speaker 1: again about the import tance of mentorship. As a teen,
Speaker 1: she didn't imagine that she could be a scientist until
Speaker 1: a mentor encouraged her to pursue both the master's degree
Speaker 1: and a doctorate. That's why today she makes a point
Speaker 1: to spend time with children and to show them what
Speaker 1: a scientist, especially a glacier scientist, it'll look like. Finally,
Speaker 1: Dr Jackson encourages us to reject defeatism when it comes
Speaker 1: to climate change. Yes, the glaciers are melting. We may
Speaker 1: think there's nothing we can do, but that's wrong, she says.
Speaker 1: The future is not set, and we have the power
Speaker 1: to shape it. Tune in next week to hear about
Speaker 1: our next featured woman and discover why she's one of
Speaker 1: Seneca's one Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women to
Speaker 1: Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner PUNGI
Speaker 1: Have a Great Day.