1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:21,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hi, they're bad women listeners. Today we're sharing a 2 00:00:21,676 --> 00:00:24,716 Speaker 1: little something extra with you. At the end of last year, 3 00:00:24,996 --> 00:00:27,916 Speaker 1: Hallie had a conversation with Kate Lister, historian of sex 4 00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: work and host of the podcast Betwixt the Sheets, The 5 00:00:31,036 --> 00:00:34,516 Speaker 1: History of Sex, Scandal and Society. They spoke about our 6 00:00:34,596 --> 00:00:38,156 Speaker 1: culture's fascination with serial killers and the rolemasogyny plays in 7 00:00:38,196 --> 00:00:40,876 Speaker 1: how certain people who are victims of crime are portrayed 8 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:44,396 Speaker 1: on our screens and elsewhere in the media too. We 9 00:00:44,476 --> 00:00:47,036 Speaker 1: thought you might be interested in their conversation, so here 10 00:00:47,036 --> 00:00:49,436 Speaker 1: it is, and if you'd like to check out Betwixt 11 00:00:49,436 --> 00:00:51,996 Speaker 1: the Sheets, you'll find it wherever you get your podcasts. 12 00:00:52,276 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: It's created by our friends over at History Hit, with 13 00:00:55,316 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 1: episodes out on Tuesdays and Fridays on everything from medieval 14 00:00:59,116 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 1: sex to the history of cosmetic surgery. But for now, 15 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:12,636 Speaker 1: on with the conversation between Hallie and Kate. What is 16 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:15,676 Speaker 1: it with our society's fascination with serial killers? And I 17 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:20,476 Speaker 1: count myself amongst those obsessed with true crime Ted Bundy, 18 00:01:20,636 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer, Peter Sutcliffe, Jack the Ripper. Ultimately, these aren't 19 00:01:25,836 --> 00:01:31,356 Speaker 1: interesting people, led violent murderers who treated innocent people horrendously 20 00:01:31,356 --> 00:01:34,076 Speaker 1: and ended their lives, and yet the names of these 21 00:01:34,156 --> 00:01:37,276 Speaker 1: killers are as recognized as some of our national treasures. 22 00:01:37,036 --> 00:01:41,756 Speaker 1: It's bizarre, isn't it. But what role does misogyny play 23 00:01:41,916 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 1: in how serial killers are portrayed and our screens in 24 00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:48,116 Speaker 1: our newspapers. How does how we view the women involved 25 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:51,596 Speaker 1: affect the court cases? Today, we're going betwixt the sheets 26 00:01:51,596 --> 00:02:04,356 Speaker 1: to find out. Hello there, I'm Kate Lister. I'm welcome 27 00:02:04,356 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 1: to betwixt the Sheets the history of sex scandal in society. 28 00:02:08,036 --> 00:02:11,276 Speaker 1: Netflix have announced record ratings for their drama about the 29 00:02:11,316 --> 00:02:15,876 Speaker 1: serial killer Jeffrey Dalmer, which was watched collectively for around 30 00:02:15,916 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety six million hours in its first 31 00:02:19,956 --> 00:02:22,716 Speaker 1: full week. That's a lot of us sitting down to 32 00:02:22,796 --> 00:02:25,756 Speaker 1: watch this stuff, and that made it number one in 33 00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:29,396 Speaker 1: sixty countries around the world. And that's just the latest 34 00:02:29,396 --> 00:02:34,316 Speaker 1: TV show and a long list of popular and gory 35 00:02:34,436 --> 00:02:40,236 Speaker 1: TV shows, podcasts, books on true crime. Well, today I'm 36 00:02:40,276 --> 00:02:42,996 Speaker 1: joined by Hallie rubin Holt, author of the award winning 37 00:02:43,036 --> 00:02:45,876 Speaker 1: book of the Five, where she researched the lives of 38 00:02:45,916 --> 00:02:48,316 Speaker 1: the victims of the serial killer known as Jack the 39 00:02:48,396 --> 00:02:52,236 Speaker 1: Ripper and highlighted the sexism at work in our culture's 40 00:02:52,236 --> 00:02:56,196 Speaker 1: obsession with this case. There's also an adjoining podcast about 41 00:02:56,196 --> 00:03:00,036 Speaker 1: her research called Bad Women, and it's back today with 42 00:03:00,156 --> 00:03:03,036 Speaker 1: a brand new series, and she's looking at the criminal 43 00:03:03,076 --> 00:03:05,156 Speaker 1: who has come to be known as the Blackout Ripper, 44 00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:08,756 Speaker 1: a man who killed women during the blitz of World 45 00:03:08,756 --> 00:03:12,396 Speaker 1: War Who. Halle and I talk about misogyny and stigma 46 00:03:12,476 --> 00:03:15,876 Speaker 1: in serial killer cases and how women's lives are valued 47 00:03:15,956 --> 00:03:19,236 Speaker 1: differently depending on how they earn their money, where they 48 00:03:19,276 --> 00:03:22,956 Speaker 1: like to spend their downtime, what they wear, etc. Etc. 49 00:03:23,716 --> 00:03:25,516 Speaker 1: Has a lot to think about, and I hope you 50 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:37,716 Speaker 1: find our chat interesting. Hello to Halle Rubin Hall. Thank 51 00:03:37,756 --> 00:03:40,596 Speaker 1: you so much to joining me betwixt the Sheets. Oh, 52 00:03:40,636 --> 00:03:45,076 Speaker 1: it's so wonderful to be on with you, my friends, Kate. 53 00:03:45,836 --> 00:03:48,756 Speaker 1: We get to have a nice natter that's recorded for 54 00:03:48,796 --> 00:03:51,556 Speaker 1: the whole world to hear. Oh, I'm so excited to 55 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:53,716 Speaker 1: talk to you about this because we've met before and 56 00:03:53,756 --> 00:03:56,516 Speaker 1: weave its radio before and women Twitter friends for a while. 57 00:03:56,636 --> 00:04:00,796 Speaker 1: And like when you wrote the five about the victims 58 00:04:00,796 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 1: of Jack the Ripper, did you have any idea that 59 00:04:02,876 --> 00:04:05,556 Speaker 1: it was going to be the absolute insane smash that 60 00:04:05,636 --> 00:04:07,996 Speaker 1: it was going to be Did you have an inkling? No, No, 61 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:10,636 Speaker 1: I had no idea. Well, I knew it was likely 62 00:04:10,716 --> 00:04:15,196 Speaker 1: to certainly be a popular book given its subject matter. Obviously, 63 00:04:15,236 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 1: I'm absolutely delighted that it took off in the way 64 00:04:19,036 --> 00:04:22,476 Speaker 1: that it did and that it's had the impact that 65 00:04:22,596 --> 00:04:27,436 Speaker 1: it's had. Oh god, yeah, yeah, it's just been incredible. Genuinely, 66 00:04:27,476 --> 00:04:30,196 Speaker 1: I'm thrilled. You know, when you're a writer, you know, 67 00:04:30,236 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time, especially as a historian, 68 00:04:32,076 --> 00:04:34,076 Speaker 1: and you spend a lot of time looking at things 69 00:04:34,116 --> 00:04:35,756 Speaker 1: in the past, and you know a lot of people 70 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:38,396 Speaker 1: are always asking question, oh, what's relevant about history and 71 00:04:38,436 --> 00:04:41,236 Speaker 1: how can it change things? And this goes to show 72 00:04:41,276 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 1: that history does have an impact on the present, and 73 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 1: history does have a way of illuminating problems today and 74 00:04:48,556 --> 00:04:51,316 Speaker 1: making us think in different ways about it. And certainly 75 00:04:51,396 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 1: as a public historian, that's what I want to do, 76 00:04:54,036 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: you know, That's why I get up in the morning. 77 00:04:55,596 --> 00:04:58,236 Speaker 1: And so the fact that this is doing that and 78 00:04:58,476 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 1: changing things and changing the narrative is really quite amazing. 79 00:05:02,036 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 1: If anyone's listening hasn't read Halley's book or isn't aware 80 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:07,316 Speaker 1: of it, it's basically a biography of what we can 81 00:05:07,396 --> 00:05:10,596 Speaker 1: call the canonical five victims Sariah killer known as Jack 82 00:05:10,636 --> 00:05:14,036 Speaker 1: the Ripper, Only you're not interested in really how these 83 00:05:14,036 --> 00:05:16,396 Speaker 1: women met their death, as in the Gruesome Grizzle, you're 84 00:05:16,396 --> 00:05:18,956 Speaker 1: not interested in the killer. So the biography is from 85 00:05:18,956 --> 00:05:20,956 Speaker 1: as much as you can get back in their past 86 00:05:21,116 --> 00:05:24,636 Speaker 1: too when their lives ended, and he's not in it. 87 00:05:24,956 --> 00:05:27,156 Speaker 1: He doesn't feature in it. I mean, that's the whole point. 88 00:05:27,716 --> 00:05:30,196 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really quite astonishing that for over one 89 00:05:30,236 --> 00:05:33,956 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty years our focus has been on a 90 00:05:34,036 --> 00:05:36,956 Speaker 1: serial killer whose name we don't know, who we know 91 00:05:37,196 --> 00:05:42,236 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing about, at the expense of the five people 92 00:05:42,916 --> 00:05:46,996 Speaker 1: he killed, who we do know actually quite a lot about. 93 00:05:47,596 --> 00:05:50,596 Speaker 1: And the whole angle on this has been like a 94 00:05:50,756 --> 00:05:54,236 Speaker 1: murder mystery, like who is Jack the Ripper? Why did 95 00:05:54,236 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: he do what he did? And then these women just 96 00:05:57,476 --> 00:06:01,796 Speaker 1: become like pieces in a puzzle. It's like a parlor game. 97 00:06:02,276 --> 00:06:06,916 Speaker 1: They've never really had identities of their own, and in 98 00:06:06,956 --> 00:06:09,276 Speaker 1: writing the book, what I wanted to do was to 99 00:06:09,356 --> 00:06:13,436 Speaker 1: give them back their identities, to restore them effectively to 100 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:16,196 Speaker 1: the record, and for us to know them as women 101 00:06:16,756 --> 00:06:19,916 Speaker 1: and not just parts of the Jack the Ripper mystery. 102 00:06:20,276 --> 00:06:21,996 Speaker 1: We do this every once in awhile with any kind 103 00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:24,036 Speaker 1: of research, is it someone sort of hits pause on 104 00:06:24,116 --> 00:06:26,476 Speaker 1: something and goes, Guys, what the hell have we been doing? 105 00:06:26,556 --> 00:06:28,636 Speaker 1: And then everyone kind of goes, oh shit, yeah, that's 106 00:06:28,676 --> 00:06:30,716 Speaker 1: really bad. Like a really reason example is like when 107 00:06:30,756 --> 00:06:32,156 Speaker 1: you go back and you're watch an old episode of 108 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:33,916 Speaker 1: Friends and now you're just kind of like watching it 109 00:06:33,956 --> 00:06:36,236 Speaker 1: with twenty twenty two vision, and you're like, you would 110 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:38,316 Speaker 1: never be able to get away with saying this stuff. 111 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:40,676 Speaker 1: But I think your book kind of had that moment 112 00:06:40,676 --> 00:06:43,556 Speaker 1: of pointing out something really obvious, like why don't we 113 00:06:43,596 --> 00:06:46,596 Speaker 1: know about these women? Or why isn't why hasn't there 114 00:06:46,636 --> 00:06:49,636 Speaker 1: been a focus on them? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. 115 00:06:49,676 --> 00:06:54,116 Speaker 1: I think that you know, again, this is something we 116 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:57,396 Speaker 1: really really have to think about how we tell murder 117 00:06:57,436 --> 00:07:02,556 Speaker 1: stories because the way in which we're always focusing on 118 00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:07,356 Speaker 1: a true crime story, a murder story, it's always killer centric. 119 00:07:07,516 --> 00:07:10,596 Speaker 1: It's murderer centric, and the more gorry the better. Often 120 00:07:10,756 --> 00:07:14,356 Speaker 1: and generally it's a his story, Okay, so we focus 121 00:07:14,436 --> 00:07:18,316 Speaker 1: on his perspective, and often he is a killer of women. 122 00:07:18,676 --> 00:07:22,316 Speaker 1: We suppress the whole female angle of this so we 123 00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:26,436 Speaker 1: can raise up this very interesting male the male brain, 124 00:07:26,596 --> 00:07:29,236 Speaker 1: you know, the killer's brain. Why did he do what 125 00:07:29,356 --> 00:07:31,596 Speaker 1: he did? You know, what is this telling us about 126 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:35,916 Speaker 1: him and his ego? And we're not actually really focusing 127 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:38,996 Speaker 1: on the fact that actually this person is not the 128 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:42,156 Speaker 1: most important person in all of this. A murder story 129 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:45,956 Speaker 1: is about kind of everything in the round. It's about 130 00:07:46,036 --> 00:07:48,636 Speaker 1: how do we let this happen as a society, whether 131 00:07:48,716 --> 00:07:51,916 Speaker 1: in the past, whether in the present. How did society 132 00:07:52,236 --> 00:07:56,876 Speaker 1: create the victim as much as the society created their killer. 133 00:07:57,396 --> 00:08:00,676 Speaker 1: We're all to blame. We're all culpable past and present, 134 00:08:01,156 --> 00:08:06,156 Speaker 1: and we need to turn the mirror around onto ourselves 135 00:08:06,516 --> 00:08:09,956 Speaker 1: and to also look at other angles of true crime 136 00:08:10,316 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 1: and true crime stories, so it's not always murderer centric. 137 00:08:14,276 --> 00:08:17,276 Speaker 1: True crime is still a huge popular genre, and I 138 00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:20,516 Speaker 1: confess to enjoying a bit of true crime myself. But 139 00:08:20,676 --> 00:08:23,036 Speaker 1: since I've read your book, since I've become more conscious 140 00:08:23,036 --> 00:08:26,156 Speaker 1: of the fact that these aren't fairy stories, these are 141 00:08:26,196 --> 00:08:30,716 Speaker 1: like real people. I do occasionally reflect on it side 142 00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:32,836 Speaker 1: this is just a bit too much, But even I 143 00:08:32,956 --> 00:08:34,716 Speaker 1: with that conscious story in my head of like this 144 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:37,756 Speaker 1: is a bit gory. I'm lying there relaxing about to 145 00:08:37,756 --> 00:08:40,916 Speaker 1: go to bed watching a documentary about somebody being disemboweled. 146 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:42,596 Speaker 1: I don't know what that says about me, but like, 147 00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:44,916 Speaker 1: why are we so fascinated with it? What is it? 148 00:08:44,956 --> 00:08:48,716 Speaker 1: Because it's huge all Netflix blockbusters, a true crime? Now, 149 00:08:48,876 --> 00:08:51,356 Speaker 1: what is it that we keep returning to these stories 150 00:08:51,396 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 1: because they're awful stories? Yeah, they are awful. I think 151 00:08:54,836 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 1: as humanity were really interested in the dark side as well. 152 00:08:58,876 --> 00:09:02,636 Speaker 1: And I think there's something really basic in the response, 153 00:09:02,836 --> 00:09:06,516 Speaker 1: which is there's a human need to understand and identify 154 00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:09,516 Speaker 1: what the threat is in order to have avoid it. 155 00:09:09,676 --> 00:09:12,396 Speaker 1: It's interesting and I think there's a lot of that 156 00:09:12,556 --> 00:09:15,956 Speaker 1: going on, and I think that's why we're drawn to it, 157 00:09:16,716 --> 00:09:21,236 Speaker 1: because we're looking for, you, any signs that one of 158 00:09:21,276 --> 00:09:24,636 Speaker 1: these people may be entering our lives, maybe in our lives. 159 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:27,916 Speaker 1: And I also think you're also learning how do I 160 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:32,276 Speaker 1: avoid becoming a victim as well? What mistakes? This is 161 00:09:32,396 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 1: where a lot of our conditioning comes in about this 162 00:09:35,516 --> 00:09:38,716 Speaker 1: idea that victims are somehow to blame and that murders 163 00:09:38,716 --> 00:09:42,036 Speaker 1: are extraordinary, that murders are extraordinary. Is what did these 164 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:45,236 Speaker 1: women do? What mistakes did they make to put them 165 00:09:45,436 --> 00:09:48,756 Speaker 1: in the path of a killer, and the fact that 166 00:09:48,796 --> 00:09:51,876 Speaker 1: we're even conditioned to go down that road, I think 167 00:09:51,996 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 1: is quite telling without even realizing we're doing it. Yeah, 168 00:09:54,996 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 1: I've researched the history of sex work, and obviously the 169 00:09:57,956 --> 00:10:00,636 Speaker 1: history of Jack the Ripper is also the history of 170 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,756 Speaker 1: sex work, or at least that's the popular narrative around it. 171 00:10:04,836 --> 00:10:08,556 Speaker 1: Your work has disturbed that somewhat. It becomes doubly effacing 172 00:10:08,556 --> 00:10:11,596 Speaker 1: when you're with a woman who is associated with sex 173 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:14,956 Speaker 1: and then meets a violent end, because those women are 174 00:10:15,036 --> 00:10:17,596 Speaker 1: doubly written out of the narrative because they're just quote 175 00:10:17,636 --> 00:10:22,156 Speaker 1: quote prostitutes, just prostitutes. One of the chapters in my 176 00:10:22,196 --> 00:10:25,836 Speaker 1: book is called just prostitutes because that's what I had 177 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:29,636 Speaker 1: heard said, what I had read about them. Oh, they 178 00:10:29,676 --> 00:10:36,156 Speaker 1: weren't they just prostitutes? Just that were just wow. You know, 179 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:42,236 Speaker 1: it's as if sex workers were are a separate species 180 00:10:42,276 --> 00:10:48,516 Speaker 1: of women. That is extraordinary, you know, to actually even 181 00:10:48,676 --> 00:10:52,396 Speaker 1: consider how we ever got to a place where that 182 00:10:52,476 --> 00:10:56,276 Speaker 1: thought is comfortable. It's part of this concept of the 183 00:10:56,396 --> 00:10:59,556 Speaker 1: less dead, you know, this idea that some people are 184 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:03,716 Speaker 1: more dead than others, some people in society are more 185 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:08,476 Speaker 1: valued than other people. So For example, if the pretty 186 00:11:08,596 --> 00:11:14,956 Speaker 1: eighteen year old white university stute, virginal virginal university student 187 00:11:15,076 --> 00:11:18,876 Speaker 1: is killed, Oh my god, this human cry because you know, 188 00:11:19,156 --> 00:11:24,076 Speaker 1: this innocent girl, good girl, was murdered. On the other hand, 189 00:11:24,436 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: if a woman who's been working as a sex worker 190 00:11:27,756 --> 00:11:31,196 Speaker 1: who was addicted to drugs was in and out of prison, 191 00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:34,876 Speaker 1: she goes missing and she's dead, it's like, oh, well, 192 00:11:35,356 --> 00:11:39,276 Speaker 1: why did you expect. It's like she brought it on herself, 193 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:43,316 Speaker 1: and that woman is considered less dead because she's not 194 00:11:43,516 --> 00:11:47,916 Speaker 1: considered as much of a value to society as this 195 00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:53,276 Speaker 1: pretty white university student is. It still shocks me to 196 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:54,996 Speaker 1: see that narrative and effect, because I'd love to be 197 00:11:55,036 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 1: able to say that this has been consigned to the 198 00:11:56,596 --> 00:12:00,436 Speaker 1: historical husband, but it hasn't. Sex workers are still subject 199 00:12:00,476 --> 00:12:02,676 Speaker 1: to high levels of violence, and when they're written about, 200 00:12:02,716 --> 00:12:06,276 Speaker 1: it's often prefaced with this word prostitute, prostitute killer, someone killed, 201 00:12:06,316 --> 00:12:08,796 Speaker 1: And it's like, you ask yourself, would that article have 202 00:12:08,836 --> 00:12:11,276 Speaker 1: been with the headline of however this person earned their 203 00:12:11,276 --> 00:12:15,076 Speaker 1: money if it was anyone else. You're listening to a 204 00:12:15,156 --> 00:12:18,876 Speaker 1: special crossover episode of Bad Women and betwixt the sheets, 205 00:12:19,036 --> 00:12:27,716 Speaker 1: they'll be more chat after this short break when we 206 00:12:27,836 --> 00:12:29,996 Speaker 1: talk about your book on the five, tell me a 207 00:12:30,036 --> 00:12:32,676 Speaker 1: little bit about what your research turned up, because it's 208 00:12:32,756 --> 00:12:36,316 Speaker 1: this particular narrative, isn't it is that they were prostitutes 209 00:12:36,396 --> 00:12:39,236 Speaker 1: and all the cultural baggage and stigma that comes with 210 00:12:39,396 --> 00:12:42,556 Speaker 1: that word. You research that, tell me what you found 211 00:12:42,556 --> 00:12:44,756 Speaker 1: out about it, and tell me about the resistance that 212 00:12:44,796 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: you met to that. Yeah, that's the flip side to it. 213 00:12:50,116 --> 00:12:54,916 Speaker 1: I mean, you really really have to unpack Victorian attitudes 214 00:12:55,556 --> 00:12:59,396 Speaker 1: and this word prostitute, which is such a fascinating word 215 00:12:59,436 --> 00:13:04,796 Speaker 1: historically because it's so loaded, it's so pregnant with meaning 216 00:13:05,196 --> 00:13:11,596 Speaker 1: and interpretation and emotion and ring in mind that really 217 00:13:11,636 --> 00:13:18,116 Speaker 1: any woman who breached the conventions of what was acceptable 218 00:13:18,196 --> 00:13:21,036 Speaker 1: womanhood at the time, well, any woman who had sex 219 00:13:21,076 --> 00:13:24,716 Speaker 1: outside of marriage was a whore, and a whore is 220 00:13:24,716 --> 00:13:28,836 Speaker 1: a prostitute. And these two words were interchangeable. And you know, 221 00:13:28,916 --> 00:13:31,556 Speaker 1: she was damaged good, she was a fallen woman. But 222 00:13:31,636 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 1: the other interesting thing is Victorians were very generalized, very 223 00:13:37,756 --> 00:13:43,076 Speaker 1: broad in their definition of damaged womanhood, of broken womanhood. 224 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:48,156 Speaker 1: I would be extremely damaged by Victorians. Consigned to the dustpin. 225 00:13:48,436 --> 00:13:50,236 Speaker 1: We all would be and I kind of love that 226 00:13:50,516 --> 00:13:53,276 Speaker 1: I do have these weird moments. I'm at the gym 227 00:13:53,316 --> 00:13:55,356 Speaker 1: and you know, all the music videos are playing, all 228 00:13:55,396 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: these women, and I'm thinking, what would somebody from like 229 00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 1: the eighteenth or nineteenth century think of our modern era 230 00:14:02,156 --> 00:14:04,596 Speaker 1: if they see I think we were nude, wouldn't they? 231 00:14:04,436 --> 00:14:07,996 Speaker 1: They would think it was just a NonStop orgy. In 232 00:14:08,236 --> 00:14:11,396 Speaker 1: twenty four cent and everybody who was depraved and this 233 00:14:11,516 --> 00:14:15,636 Speaker 1: was you know, go Morai. By contrast, their views were 234 00:14:15,716 --> 00:14:18,796 Speaker 1: so black and white of what woman who was So 235 00:14:18,996 --> 00:14:22,036 Speaker 1: if you transgress the norms, if you were a woman 236 00:14:22,276 --> 00:14:25,556 Speaker 1: who didn't live in a stable home, if you didn't 237 00:14:25,596 --> 00:14:29,516 Speaker 1: have a father figure, a husband, some male family member 238 00:14:29,636 --> 00:14:32,956 Speaker 1: looking after you, you were kind of suspect. You know, 239 00:14:33,076 --> 00:14:35,796 Speaker 1: a single woman who was suspect at the time. But 240 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 1: a single woman who was homeless, a single woman who 241 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 1: also was addicted to alcohol might have mental health problems. 242 00:14:43,996 --> 00:14:48,396 Speaker 1: Any one of those types of women were considered broken women, 243 00:14:48,876 --> 00:14:51,956 Speaker 1: and broken women were considered to be morally defective and 244 00:14:52,076 --> 00:14:55,236 Speaker 1: morally damaged, and so then broken women and the fold 245 00:14:55,316 --> 00:15:00,076 Speaker 1: woman were conflated. In the Victorian mind, your morality is damaged, 246 00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:02,996 Speaker 1: you will do anything. So if you're living on the streets, 247 00:15:03,036 --> 00:15:05,836 Speaker 1: if you're begging, if you're an alcoholic, you're a whore 248 00:15:06,116 --> 00:15:10,236 Speaker 1: as well, you know, because you're a damaged, can fallen woman. 249 00:15:10,716 --> 00:15:14,876 Speaker 1: There was no real investigation that went on to investigate 250 00:15:15,156 --> 00:15:18,596 Speaker 1: how these women who lived on the streets actually lived 251 00:15:18,636 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: their lives. And yes, some were engaged in sex work, 252 00:15:21,916 --> 00:15:24,716 Speaker 1: but some weren't engaged in sex work. And for us 253 00:15:24,716 --> 00:15:28,916 Speaker 1: to broadly say, oh, they were all prostitutes, because the 254 00:15:28,996 --> 00:15:31,276 Speaker 1: Victorian police that they were all prostitutes, you know, the 255 00:15:31,356 --> 00:15:36,676 Speaker 1: Victorian police were carrying all the judgments of their era. 256 00:15:36,956 --> 00:15:40,676 Speaker 1: The Victorian police were not always right, you know. In fact, 257 00:15:40,996 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Cass case which happened shortly before the Ripper murders, 258 00:15:46,396 --> 00:15:49,916 Speaker 1: where you Elizabeth Cass, who was a seams was mistaken 259 00:15:49,956 --> 00:15:52,756 Speaker 1: as being a street walker. And then the police code 260 00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:56,316 Speaker 1: had to be changed about how sex workers were arrested 261 00:15:56,356 --> 00:15:58,796 Speaker 1: and how they were identified. And in fact, at one 262 00:15:58,876 --> 00:16:02,476 Speaker 1: point a sex worker couldn't be called a prostitute unless 263 00:16:02,476 --> 00:16:07,276 Speaker 1: she's self identified as one. And that's amazing. So this 264 00:16:07,396 --> 00:16:11,436 Speaker 1: idea who was and wasn't prostitute, it was largely kind 265 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: of an arbitrary label. And if we just accept whatever 266 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:22,836 Speaker 1: the victorians said about women who were down on their luck. 267 00:16:23,276 --> 00:16:27,876 Speaker 1: We're taking in all of that morality into the press era, 268 00:16:28,396 --> 00:16:32,556 Speaker 1: and we're judging again. We're doubling down on that judgment 269 00:16:32,956 --> 00:16:36,596 Speaker 1: of those women. That was part of the thesis of 270 00:16:36,636 --> 00:16:39,156 Speaker 1: my book. I mean, that's just one aspect of it. 271 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:40,676 Speaker 1: That's a bit that a lot of people like to 272 00:16:40,756 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 1: jump on. But you know, the other thing was I 273 00:16:43,236 --> 00:16:46,596 Speaker 1: wanted to tell these women's stories. Now, the second part 274 00:16:46,596 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 1: of your question was about the response to this, and 275 00:16:50,116 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who were furious at 276 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 1: the suggestion not all of them had been telling sex 277 00:16:55,676 --> 00:16:58,596 Speaker 1: at the time of death. Yeah, And the interesting thing 278 00:16:58,756 --> 00:17:03,276 Speaker 1: is I learned something really fascinating about this, which is 279 00:17:03,596 --> 00:17:07,036 Speaker 1: the people who hold on to this are people who 280 00:17:07,036 --> 00:17:11,036 Speaker 1: have invested their own lives in ripparology, which is the 281 00:17:11,076 --> 00:17:15,556 Speaker 1: study of Jack the Ripper and their own egos. And 282 00:17:15,636 --> 00:17:18,676 Speaker 1: so by me, you know, somebody who is an outsider 283 00:17:18,716 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 1: from this community of riparologists. You know, spent like decades, 284 00:17:23,316 --> 00:17:26,236 Speaker 1: some of them just like reading the same stuff over 285 00:17:26,276 --> 00:17:28,956 Speaker 1: and over again, either trying to solve the murder mystery 286 00:17:29,076 --> 00:17:32,116 Speaker 1: or developing their own theories. So me, this outsider comes 287 00:17:32,116 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 1: and says, well, actually this is kind of wrong. It 288 00:17:35,596 --> 00:17:40,436 Speaker 1: just totally disrupted their sense of identity, their ego. It 289 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:42,596 Speaker 1: was like me saying to a load of men, well 290 00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:46,796 Speaker 1: actually you're wrong, and they were just utterly horrified. I mean, 291 00:17:47,516 --> 00:17:49,956 Speaker 1: months before the book even came out, before any of 292 00:17:49,996 --> 00:17:53,516 Speaker 1: them had ever even read it. I had this man, 293 00:17:53,756 --> 00:17:56,476 Speaker 1: who is you know, one of this sort of more 294 00:17:56,716 --> 00:18:03,116 Speaker 1: imminent ripparologists basically threatening me on Twitter saying you can't 295 00:18:03,116 --> 00:18:07,676 Speaker 1: talk about your research until we've vetted it, like excuse me, 296 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:11,156 Speaker 1: and then being aft at, and then I get blamed 297 00:18:11,236 --> 00:18:17,556 Speaker 1: somehow for being somebody who incited problems when these people 298 00:18:17,636 --> 00:18:21,116 Speaker 1: were tearing apart a book they hadn't read, and then 299 00:18:21,156 --> 00:18:24,676 Speaker 1: when the book came out, claimed to be impartial in 300 00:18:24,716 --> 00:18:27,876 Speaker 1: their criticism. You know, there's a big difference between criticism 301 00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:31,916 Speaker 1: and trolling, and it was pretty incessant trolling and being 302 00:18:31,996 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 1: also compared to a Holocaust denier being called a liar, 303 00:18:35,956 --> 00:18:39,836 Speaker 1: being called a fraud, a somebody who made stuff up, 304 00:18:39,836 --> 00:18:41,876 Speaker 1: who hid evidence. I mean, these are people who would 305 00:18:41,996 --> 00:18:47,556 Speaker 1: stop at nothing to prove that they were right, and 306 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:50,596 Speaker 1: that somehow I head straight into their territory. So there's 307 00:18:50,636 --> 00:18:54,796 Speaker 1: this whole thing about like everybody feels they own these women. 308 00:18:55,436 --> 00:18:59,396 Speaker 1: And that's what makes me so angry, is that how 309 00:18:59,516 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 1: dare a group of people feel ownership over these women, 310 00:19:02,956 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 1: these poor women who have never been able just to 311 00:19:06,996 --> 00:19:12,156 Speaker 1: have a story and be recognized as individuals apart from 312 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:15,596 Speaker 1: Jack Ripper and apart from men who wanted to own them. 313 00:19:15,916 --> 00:19:17,916 Speaker 1: Awful for you to experienced it, I have no doubt, 314 00:19:17,956 --> 00:19:21,116 Speaker 1: but just to watch it happening was fascinating trying to 315 00:19:21,156 --> 00:19:23,836 Speaker 1: get a handle on what it was that had so 316 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:28,636 Speaker 1: upset this community, because surely if your research had turned up, oh, 317 00:19:28,676 --> 00:19:31,236 Speaker 1: actually know, they weren't selling sex. They were teachers and 318 00:19:31,276 --> 00:19:33,756 Speaker 1: this one was a dentist, that doesn't change the fact 319 00:19:33,796 --> 00:19:36,596 Speaker 1: that they were still killed by this person. So, like, 320 00:19:36,636 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 1: I could never quite get my head around what is 321 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:43,876 Speaker 1: it that so fundamentally disturbing about taking away this prostitute 322 00:19:43,996 --> 00:19:48,556 Speaker 1: label hundreds of years later. Well, I think there has 323 00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:52,316 Speaker 1: been an actual deliberate misreading of my work in some 324 00:19:52,396 --> 00:19:56,476 Speaker 1: cases where people have said, oh, she's anti sex worker 325 00:19:56,596 --> 00:20:00,036 Speaker 1: because what she wants to do is exactly the opposite 326 00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:02,196 Speaker 1: of what I've done. And even how you can even 327 00:20:02,276 --> 00:20:05,756 Speaker 1: get that message from the book where I say literally 328 00:20:05,876 --> 00:20:08,556 Speaker 1: at the end of the book, they were women, they 329 00:20:08,556 --> 00:20:11,956 Speaker 1: were human beings, and that in itself is enough. You know, 330 00:20:12,236 --> 00:20:16,876 Speaker 1: I don't understand. I think it is just a desire 331 00:20:17,036 --> 00:20:22,676 Speaker 1: to own the narrative. And actually I think it's about them. 332 00:20:22,916 --> 00:20:27,796 Speaker 1: It's about personal egos, male egos, some female egos, and 333 00:20:28,316 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 1: just using these women for their own sense of identity. 334 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:37,356 Speaker 1: The book is not doing a Mary Magdalene thing, which 335 00:20:37,396 --> 00:20:39,716 Speaker 1: is like, how dare you call her a prostitute? She 336 00:20:39,836 --> 00:20:42,316 Speaker 1: wasn't that awful thing is? It's certainly not doing that. 337 00:20:42,476 --> 00:20:44,636 Speaker 1: It's saying these are lives of these women. There's some 338 00:20:44,676 --> 00:20:46,796 Speaker 1: evidence that some of them were selling sex, but interestingly 339 00:20:46,916 --> 00:20:49,996 Speaker 1: some evidence there isn't for others. And the argument that 340 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:51,996 Speaker 1: they must have been sound sex because they were poor 341 00:20:52,596 --> 00:20:54,636 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense if you try and said that today, 342 00:20:54,676 --> 00:20:56,676 Speaker 1: that if you're a homeless woman you must be selling 343 00:20:56,716 --> 00:20:59,516 Speaker 1: sex as well. That doesn't make sense today. Why would 344 00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:01,796 Speaker 1: that made sense in the nineteenth century. But it did 345 00:21:01,836 --> 00:21:06,516 Speaker 1: show me just how entrenched and powerful that narrative is. 346 00:21:06,516 --> 00:21:09,556 Speaker 1: And for my own money on it, it seems to 347 00:21:09,596 --> 00:21:12,036 Speaker 1: me that it's because by doing that, by clinging onto 348 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:14,716 Speaker 1: that label of they were prostitutes, is it helps the 349 00:21:14,796 --> 00:21:18,356 Speaker 1: Ripper narrative that we're so familiar with the cloak and 350 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 1: the cobbled streets of swirling old London smog and all 351 00:21:22,076 --> 00:21:25,356 Speaker 1: of that stuff. Because you know what, a serial killer 352 00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:29,156 Speaker 1: who killed homeless women is not as sexy as a 353 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:33,996 Speaker 1: serial killer who killed whores. Right, that's the hook, that's it, 354 00:21:34,356 --> 00:21:38,396 Speaker 1: that's what people like. He doesn't seem like some sort 355 00:21:38,436 --> 00:21:42,476 Speaker 1: of rock star if he's killing homeless woman. No, that 356 00:21:42,596 --> 00:21:46,396 Speaker 1: doesn't have the same ring to it at all, does it? Exactly? Wow, 357 00:21:46,636 --> 00:21:48,956 Speaker 1: it's bizarre when you just like press paws on these 358 00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:50,796 Speaker 1: things and you start to unpack it of like, yeah, 359 00:21:50,836 --> 00:21:53,356 Speaker 1: just when you said that there, that does not have 360 00:21:53,836 --> 00:21:56,636 Speaker 1: the same impact When you're studying this stuff and you're 361 00:21:56,636 --> 00:21:59,836 Speaker 1: studying the history of murders and particularly how women have 362 00:21:59,916 --> 00:22:03,836 Speaker 1: been killed. The jack the Ripper narrative is far reaching. 363 00:22:03,916 --> 00:22:06,596 Speaker 1: And it's not just in people that really like to 364 00:22:06,636 --> 00:22:10,316 Speaker 1: research this historian's point of view and the media, and 365 00:22:10,356 --> 00:22:14,316 Speaker 1: it's in policing as well, because the name Ripper repeats, 366 00:22:14,676 --> 00:22:17,276 Speaker 1: It gets given to different serial killers, doesn't it. And 367 00:22:17,596 --> 00:22:21,956 Speaker 1: you researched other Rippers. So for my podcast, the next 368 00:22:21,996 --> 00:22:26,676 Speaker 1: season of my podcast, we are actually looking at someone 369 00:22:26,756 --> 00:22:30,076 Speaker 1: who was called the Blackout Ripper during the Blitz, and 370 00:22:30,116 --> 00:22:32,716 Speaker 1: obviously we know about the Yorkshire Ripper. Also, almost a 371 00:22:32,916 --> 00:22:36,556 Speaker 1: hundred years later, we have another killer who's called Ripper. 372 00:22:36,716 --> 00:22:40,756 Speaker 1: But Blackout Ripper is the subject of my podcast, which 373 00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:44,076 Speaker 1: is The Ripper Retold. So the first season was an 374 00:22:44,076 --> 00:22:46,956 Speaker 1: expansion of my book and we kind of went into 375 00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 1: all sorts of corners and expanded on things and spoke 376 00:22:50,276 --> 00:22:53,996 Speaker 1: to academics and judges and sex workers and give it 377 00:22:53,996 --> 00:22:56,156 Speaker 1: a name. Drop, Pali, the name of your podcast is. 378 00:22:56,396 --> 00:22:59,076 Speaker 1: It's called Bad Women The Ripper Retold. That was the 379 00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:03,396 Speaker 1: first season. The second season is called Bad Women the 380 00:23:03,556 --> 00:23:06,676 Speaker 1: Blackout Ripper, and that drops on the length of October. 381 00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:09,636 Speaker 1: And so the Blackout Ripper was a man called Gordon 382 00:23:09,716 --> 00:23:14,276 Speaker 1: Cummings who was in the Air Force. I don't actually 383 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:18,476 Speaker 1: want to go into that much detail about him because ultimately, 384 00:23:18,516 --> 00:23:20,956 Speaker 1: what we're doing with this podcast, and what we were 385 00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:23,316 Speaker 1: doing in the first season, and what I feel very 386 00:23:23,316 --> 00:23:28,636 Speaker 1: strongly about is this is not about the murder per se. 387 00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:35,396 Speaker 1: It's about the women, the society, the circumstances that created 388 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:40,476 Speaker 1: this murderer and created the victims and created this situation. 389 00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:45,356 Speaker 1: So we're really examining London during the Blitz and Britain 390 00:23:45,436 --> 00:23:48,756 Speaker 1: during the war and how a lot of violence against 391 00:23:48,796 --> 00:23:53,596 Speaker 1: women went under the radar because we were so distracted 392 00:23:53,676 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 1: with winning a war and because London was being bombed, 393 00:23:57,756 --> 00:24:00,516 Speaker 1: and we look into women's lives and what they were like, 394 00:24:00,596 --> 00:24:03,716 Speaker 1: and we look into the lives of the four women 395 00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:07,196 Speaker 1: he killed and the two women he attempted to kill 396 00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:11,596 Speaker 1: who survived. We look at a number of other cases 397 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:15,836 Speaker 1: from that time as well, cases of sexual assault, cases 398 00:24:15,876 --> 00:24:19,116 Speaker 1: of domestic violence which ended in murder as well. Who 399 00:24:19,316 --> 00:24:22,116 Speaker 1: was the victims did the Blackout Ripper? So the victims 400 00:24:22,116 --> 00:24:28,836 Speaker 1: of the Blackout Ripper were Evelyn Hamilton, Evelyn Oatley, Margaret Lowe, 401 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 1: Katherine McCaughey who survived and Door Joanne who was killed 402 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:37,876 Speaker 1: and another woman who was called Margaret Hayward but went 403 00:24:37,996 --> 00:24:40,836 Speaker 1: by the name of Gretta Gretta Hayward, who also survived. 404 00:24:41,276 --> 00:24:43,996 Speaker 1: So thankfully these women, the ones who survived, were able 405 00:24:44,036 --> 00:24:48,316 Speaker 1: to inform the police and were responsible for getting him arrested. 406 00:24:48,876 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 1: But the four other women were killed in some pretty 407 00:24:52,356 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 1: horrific circumstances, and there is a sex worker link between 408 00:24:57,356 --> 00:24:59,796 Speaker 1: them as well. With the exception of the first one, 409 00:24:59,956 --> 00:25:02,596 Speaker 1: Evelyn Hamilton, but this is often the case, you know. 410 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:06,116 Speaker 1: I mean, I like to say that although a lot 411 00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:12,236 Speaker 1: of these murders are sexually driven, they're women hating murders. 412 00:25:12,716 --> 00:25:16,156 Speaker 1: Sometimes the fact that they're sex workers does play into it. 413 00:25:16,156 --> 00:25:19,636 Speaker 1: It certainly makes them more vulnerable. But much like Jack 414 00:25:19,676 --> 00:25:22,916 Speaker 1: the Ripper, much like a Yorkshire ripper, these people, these 415 00:25:22,916 --> 00:25:27,276 Speaker 1: men killed women because they hated women, and sex workers 416 00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:30,276 Speaker 1: are women, and we have to stop hiving them off 417 00:25:30,316 --> 00:25:34,116 Speaker 1: as some separate thing. There's a lot of research about this, 418 00:25:34,156 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 1: but I hear people say if you're a sex worker, 419 00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:38,716 Speaker 1: I suppose there is a certain level of vulnerability because 420 00:25:38,716 --> 00:25:40,836 Speaker 1: you have to meet someone, and when it's criminalized, you 421 00:25:40,836 --> 00:25:43,396 Speaker 1: have to meet them in a clandestine way. But there 422 00:25:43,396 --> 00:25:46,596 Speaker 1: are many professions where you meet somebody in their home 423 00:25:46,756 --> 00:25:50,596 Speaker 1: and they aren't subject to this kind of stigma. There's 424 00:25:50,636 --> 00:25:53,876 Speaker 1: a lot of research coming out about why serial killers 425 00:25:53,916 --> 00:25:57,836 Speaker 1: attack sex workers, and it's not just that they are available, 426 00:25:58,476 --> 00:26:01,676 Speaker 1: it's that, like you said, they are symbolic to them 427 00:26:01,836 --> 00:26:05,796 Speaker 1: of a sexual woman. Yeah, an a stigmatized woman as well. 428 00:26:05,836 --> 00:26:09,356 Speaker 1: And any group of people that you stigmatize violent is 429 00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:13,476 Speaker 1: enabled against them and There's been research by a Canadian 430 00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:16,036 Speaker 1: professoral John Loman in two thousand, I think it was, 431 00:26:16,316 --> 00:26:20,836 Speaker 1: who traced newspaper reportings around street based sex work and 432 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:23,556 Speaker 1: he charted violence against them, and he found that whenever 433 00:26:23,836 --> 00:26:26,316 Speaker 1: there was a media campaign to clean up the streets 434 00:26:26,396 --> 00:26:29,396 Speaker 1: or get rid of these women, violence against them escalated 435 00:26:29,836 --> 00:26:33,436 Speaker 1: because they're a stigmatized group of people. Yeah. Absolutely, It's 436 00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:37,276 Speaker 1: very interesting that the sort of interplay between that and 437 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:43,636 Speaker 1: how we tacitly allow that violence to occur. Yeah. Absolutely. 438 00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:46,036 Speaker 1: Is it the case that whenever there's a circle who 439 00:26:46,036 --> 00:26:48,956 Speaker 1: attacks women that are selling sex, that's when the ripper 440 00:26:48,996 --> 00:26:52,356 Speaker 1: label is applied? Yeah, I think it is. It tends 441 00:26:52,396 --> 00:26:55,436 Speaker 1: to be, I mean, just anecdotally from what I've read 442 00:26:55,436 --> 00:26:58,156 Speaker 1: from my experience. You know, I'm not a criminologist. I'm 443 00:26:58,236 --> 00:27:02,156 Speaker 1: certainly not an expert in the whole cannon of murderers 444 00:27:02,196 --> 00:27:05,836 Speaker 1: who have been given the label ripper, but it seems 445 00:27:05,876 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 1: to be the case because of this connection. The ripper 446 00:27:09,276 --> 00:27:14,796 Speaker 1: killed prostitutes. Therefore men who cut up women who are 447 00:27:14,836 --> 00:27:16,716 Speaker 1: out on the street or but I mean the rs 448 00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:19,156 Speaker 1: ripper used the hammer. I mean, that case is a 449 00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:22,836 Speaker 1: perfect example of how the ripper stigma still plays out, 450 00:27:22,916 --> 00:27:25,676 Speaker 1: and exactly like your research showed, there's evidence actually that 451 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:27,716 Speaker 1: at least one of the women that they called a 452 00:27:27,836 --> 00:27:30,276 Speaker 1: prostitute Wilmam account, there's no evidence that she was selling 453 00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:33,836 Speaker 1: sex apart from what Peter Sutcliffe himself said. But that's 454 00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:36,356 Speaker 1: an example of an investigation that was pretty much derailed 455 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:39,676 Speaker 1: by stigma around sex work, wasn't it. Yeah, that's right, 456 00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:43,836 Speaker 1: And as we well know, the police suffer long way 457 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:47,316 Speaker 1: to go in terms of cleaning up their prejudices about 458 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:50,316 Speaker 1: a whole load of things. They are not the most 459 00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:55,716 Speaker 1: female friendly or open minded about race or anything. So 460 00:27:55,876 --> 00:28:01,916 Speaker 1: it's not difficult to believe that these attitudes are very 461 00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:08,036 Speaker 1: systemic and they allow violence to go under the radar 462 00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:11,236 Speaker 1: in some cases. If you speak to any sex worker 463 00:28:11,476 --> 00:28:14,316 Speaker 1: rights groups or communities today, they still have an incredibly 464 00:28:14,316 --> 00:28:18,156 Speaker 1: problematic relationship with the police. There are efforts by various 465 00:28:18,156 --> 00:28:20,796 Speaker 1: police forces to encourage women to come forward to report 466 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:23,716 Speaker 1: crimes and blah blah, but historically there's an awfully long 467 00:28:23,756 --> 00:28:26,516 Speaker 1: way to go to repair that kind of reputation because 468 00:28:26,556 --> 00:28:29,276 Speaker 1: as long as things are criminalized, you're effectively reporting a crime. 469 00:28:29,436 --> 00:28:32,756 Speaker 1: Many sex workers are reported sexual assault from police force 470 00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:35,556 Speaker 1: or stigma or prejudice, or an idea that they shouldn't 471 00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 1: report something against them because they're going to be told 472 00:28:37,556 --> 00:28:40,836 Speaker 1: that they deserved it. In your thoughts, what do we 473 00:28:40,956 --> 00:28:44,476 Speaker 1: kind of need to do going forward talking about these 474 00:28:45,036 --> 00:28:48,236 Speaker 1: kind of crimes, like when you might start identifying this 475 00:28:48,276 --> 00:28:50,556 Speaker 1: stuff in action, as it were, when you're watching a 476 00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:53,116 Speaker 1: serial killer documentary or something. What do we need to 477 00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 1: do going forward? Oh? I just think we've got to stop. 478 00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:58,116 Speaker 1: We've got to move the focus off of the killer. 479 00:28:58,356 --> 00:29:00,356 Speaker 1: It's funny because there are a lot of people who 480 00:29:00,436 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 1: don't get it. They don't get the idea that glamorizing 481 00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:06,596 Speaker 1: the killer, you know, but we're not glamorized, and we're 482 00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:09,716 Speaker 1: not making him look like he's all rocks or anything 483 00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:12,396 Speaker 1: like that. He's you know, he's awful. No, no, No. 484 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:17,236 Speaker 1: Glamorizing means putting the spotlight on him, making it all 485 00:29:17,276 --> 00:29:20,316 Speaker 1: about him. And I think a lot of people are 486 00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:26,276 Speaker 1: just so not accustomed to actually even hearing crime stories 487 00:29:26,996 --> 00:29:31,556 Speaker 1: which aren't murderer centric, that they don't know, they don't 488 00:29:31,596 --> 00:29:34,676 Speaker 1: know how to process, they don't know what other options 489 00:29:34,756 --> 00:29:38,876 Speaker 1: there are in terms of restructuring the narrative and how 490 00:29:38,916 --> 00:29:42,836 Speaker 1: we can tell these stories. It will always be well, 491 00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:45,356 Speaker 1: the murderer is the most important person, He's the protagonist. 492 00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:49,716 Speaker 1: And my argument is the murder isn't the protagonist. Necessarily, 493 00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:53,476 Speaker 1: we don't even have to ascribe a protagonist. There are 494 00:29:53,516 --> 00:29:55,956 Speaker 1: other ways to discuss this. There are other ways in 495 00:29:56,276 --> 00:29:59,316 Speaker 1: I have seen since your book a shift in how 496 00:29:59,356 --> 00:30:01,476 Speaker 1: true crime documentaries are made, in the kind of tone 497 00:30:02,076 --> 00:30:05,156 Speaker 1: of them, and there seems to be more of a 498 00:30:05,196 --> 00:30:07,916 Speaker 1: recognition of, like, Jesus Christ, we've just spent ages just 499 00:30:07,916 --> 00:30:10,516 Speaker 1: given the serial killers any nicknames, and we've just spent 500 00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:13,196 Speaker 1: an hour on this documentary talking about all this violence 501 00:30:13,196 --> 00:30:15,436 Speaker 1: that they did, and it's like people suddenly caught up 502 00:30:15,436 --> 00:30:17,876 Speaker 1: and like, oh, fuck, yeah, we haven't actually spoken. There's 503 00:30:17,916 --> 00:30:20,316 Speaker 1: been documentaries now about the victims of Dennis Nielsen and 504 00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:24,036 Speaker 1: about the stigma that they were subject to victims of 505 00:30:24,076 --> 00:30:26,716 Speaker 1: Jeffrey dam But again, I kind of see this slight 506 00:30:26,796 --> 00:30:30,236 Speaker 1: in creeping through. There are the more salacious documentaries there, 507 00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:32,076 Speaker 1: but they seem to have tacked on this kind of 508 00:30:32,436 --> 00:30:35,276 Speaker 1: but obviously we need to remember the victims. They're just 509 00:30:35,356 --> 00:30:38,436 Speaker 1: doing the same thing, but they're putting that at the end, 510 00:30:39,036 --> 00:30:43,556 Speaker 1: I know it drives me bananas. It really does. And 511 00:30:43,676 --> 00:30:47,756 Speaker 1: I've seen this kind of battle go on within production 512 00:30:47,796 --> 00:30:51,556 Speaker 1: companies that I've spoken to that want to do something 513 00:30:51,596 --> 00:30:54,236 Speaker 1: with my material and other material, and it's like, oh, 514 00:30:54,276 --> 00:30:56,116 Speaker 1: we're going to do this and it but you see 515 00:30:56,116 --> 00:30:58,476 Speaker 1: the thread that runs through It has to be him. 516 00:30:58,516 --> 00:31:01,676 Speaker 1: It has to be the tension had No, there are 517 00:31:01,796 --> 00:31:04,716 Speaker 1: other ways of doing this. It doesn't have to be 518 00:31:04,876 --> 00:31:08,156 Speaker 1: about the murderer. Oh, but then you lose the tension. 519 00:31:08,236 --> 00:31:12,116 Speaker 1: No other ways of doing it. If you've just spent 520 00:31:12,156 --> 00:31:15,356 Speaker 1: an hour talking about somebody being disemboweled, putting a nice 521 00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:18,996 Speaker 1: memorial to them on the end, it's probably not helping 522 00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:22,316 Speaker 1: the fact that this was a real person. Absolutely, it's 523 00:31:22,396 --> 00:31:25,156 Speaker 1: you know, like, let's focus on the crime. Yeah, let's 524 00:31:25,196 --> 00:31:28,276 Speaker 1: talk about all the injuries, let's talk about how it happened. 525 00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:30,516 Speaker 1: Let's look at the blood and the gun, jair photos, 526 00:31:30,796 --> 00:31:34,676 Speaker 1: jair photos, and then oh, moment of silence for the victims. No, 527 00:31:35,236 --> 00:31:37,756 Speaker 1: it doesn't work that way. You're not a victim centric 528 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:42,796 Speaker 1: program or series or you know, story if you do that. 529 00:31:43,316 --> 00:31:44,676 Speaker 1: I mean, we've still got a long way to go, 530 00:31:44,836 --> 00:31:47,956 Speaker 1: I suppose, but at least people are becoming more aware 531 00:31:47,956 --> 00:31:50,116 Speaker 1: of it that it's kind of problematic, like people are 532 00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:52,836 Speaker 1: finally starting to go actually it's having a street tour 533 00:31:52,876 --> 00:31:54,996 Speaker 1: of the Jack the Ripper victims. Is that a good thing? 534 00:31:55,116 --> 00:31:57,276 Speaker 1: I mean, just frame that of like would you have 535 00:31:57,476 --> 00:32:01,276 Speaker 1: a Jamie Bulger murder tour or a Harold Shipman, Like 536 00:32:01,316 --> 00:32:04,076 Speaker 1: when you think about that, it's so insane. Yeah, it 537 00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:07,676 Speaker 1: is insane, but it's somehow become like cultural background noise 538 00:32:07,756 --> 00:32:09,996 Speaker 1: that we're like, oh, yeah, it's good for I hear this, 539 00:32:10,116 --> 00:32:12,796 Speaker 1: and it's one for us as historians to grapple with, 540 00:32:12,996 --> 00:32:15,676 Speaker 1: which is, oh, yeah, but it was so long ago, 541 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:18,916 Speaker 1: what does it matter? And then I point out, well, actually, 542 00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:22,356 Speaker 1: it wasn't that long ago, and actually these women have 543 00:32:22,436 --> 00:32:26,076 Speaker 1: descendants alive today, and the sex worker community is very 544 00:32:26,196 --> 00:32:28,836 Speaker 1: much alive today and aware of this. And every time 545 00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:30,956 Speaker 1: if we're talking about people one hundred years ago, if 546 00:32:30,956 --> 00:32:33,476 Speaker 1: we trying to dress up that, oh, isn't it kind 547 00:32:33,476 --> 00:32:36,956 Speaker 1: of like a sort of staged theater production because they 548 00:32:36,956 --> 00:32:39,836 Speaker 1: were prostitutes? That has a resonance with people and how 549 00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:42,076 Speaker 1: we talk about it today, it just does. It does. 550 00:32:42,156 --> 00:32:46,076 Speaker 1: And again I don't think people are aware of the 551 00:32:46,116 --> 00:32:50,516 Speaker 1: way in which we hear ambient stories, you know, and 552 00:32:50,596 --> 00:32:52,996 Speaker 1: that becomes the norm and we take it in and 553 00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:56,316 Speaker 1: then that becomes our default setting, you know. And that's 554 00:32:56,356 --> 00:32:58,796 Speaker 1: what we understand, and that's the prism through which we 555 00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:03,236 Speaker 1: see various things. And that truism, I say with air quotes, 556 00:33:03,756 --> 00:33:08,556 Speaker 1: is constantly being reaffirmed. That Jack Roper killed prostitutes, So 557 00:33:08,636 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 1: it's okay, hey, to kill prostitutes, a prostitutes to get killed. 558 00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:15,236 Speaker 1: That being a prostitute means you're putting yourself in danger. 559 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:18,196 Speaker 1: It's your own fault if you die. You know, all 560 00:33:18,196 --> 00:33:20,796 Speaker 1: of this stuff, and if you check people on that, 561 00:33:20,996 --> 00:33:24,356 Speaker 1: like we're to grab anybody and say, pang on, can 562 00:33:24,396 --> 00:33:26,876 Speaker 1: we kind of unpack this a little bit? Do you 563 00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:29,796 Speaker 1: believe this? Do you? No? I don't. I don't. Most 564 00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:33,916 Speaker 1: of them will say that, but yet they're parroting these things. 565 00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:38,196 Speaker 1: It's the same for every really kind of unpalatable set 566 00:33:38,196 --> 00:33:41,996 Speaker 1: of beliefs we have. Whether that's misogyny, whether that's racism, 567 00:33:42,196 --> 00:33:46,476 Speaker 1: it's certain things that if we don't correct this, and 568 00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:49,996 Speaker 1: by correct I mean just even stop and examine them. 569 00:33:50,276 --> 00:33:54,236 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about a puritanical movement to check what 570 00:33:54,476 --> 00:33:58,436 Speaker 1: everybody says all the time and punish people for saying things, 571 00:33:58,436 --> 00:34:00,756 Speaker 1: and there's a wrong thing, and there's a right thing. 572 00:34:01,276 --> 00:34:06,196 Speaker 1: But stop pause, think that's the most important thing, you know. 573 00:34:06,236 --> 00:34:09,236 Speaker 1: At the same time, it surprises people when I say this. 574 00:34:10,036 --> 00:34:13,316 Speaker 1: I think the idea of banning Jack the reppertures in 575 00:34:13,356 --> 00:34:16,156 Speaker 1: the East End, that's never going to happen, and I 576 00:34:16,196 --> 00:34:18,556 Speaker 1: think it would be wrong. First of all, there's something 577 00:34:18,556 --> 00:34:20,636 Speaker 1: to be learned from it. Second of all, not all 578 00:34:20,676 --> 00:34:23,116 Speaker 1: of them are bad. And also, as you know and 579 00:34:23,196 --> 00:34:25,956 Speaker 1: I know, and sex workers know, the moment you ban 580 00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:29,276 Speaker 1: things is the moment they become taboo and then all 581 00:34:29,356 --> 00:34:32,476 Speaker 1: hell breaks loose and it's not the most responsible thing 582 00:34:32,516 --> 00:34:34,716 Speaker 1: to do. Before I let you go, and I can 583 00:34:34,756 --> 00:34:36,596 Speaker 1: talk to you firm about this. You know that. But 584 00:34:36,676 --> 00:34:38,676 Speaker 1: tell me about the new podcast. Tell me all the 585 00:34:38,716 --> 00:34:41,196 Speaker 1: things that you're looking at on the new upcoming podcast. 586 00:34:41,236 --> 00:34:44,396 Speaker 1: It sounds fascinating. Oh, it is fascinating, and we're still 587 00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:46,836 Speaker 1: in the process of recording it and putting it together. 588 00:34:46,956 --> 00:34:52,316 Speaker 1: So it's very interesting to suddenly move into the nineteen 589 00:34:52,356 --> 00:34:54,876 Speaker 1: forties and to look at Britain at war, and to 590 00:34:54,956 --> 00:34:58,156 Speaker 1: look at women, and to also look at how women's 591 00:34:58,196 --> 00:35:03,636 Speaker 1: lives changed. Really quite dramatically in the twentieth century. And 592 00:35:03,676 --> 00:35:06,276 Speaker 1: also to look at links again, I mean, there's so 593 00:35:06,316 --> 00:35:10,036 Speaker 1: many similarities between the women men who were the victims 594 00:35:10,036 --> 00:35:12,196 Speaker 1: of the Blackout Ripper and the women who were the 595 00:35:12,236 --> 00:35:15,036 Speaker 1: victims of Jack the Ripper, and that they came from 596 00:35:15,116 --> 00:35:21,596 Speaker 1: backgrounds of poverty, broken homes, tremendous hardship. It's interesting to 597 00:35:21,796 --> 00:35:27,796 Speaker 1: trace that. It's interesting to see how often that paves 598 00:35:27,796 --> 00:35:31,356 Speaker 1: a road for a lot of women to go into 599 00:35:31,436 --> 00:35:35,516 Speaker 1: sex work. Again, I think when we're looking at modern 600 00:35:35,636 --> 00:35:39,076 Speaker 1: urban problems and issues, I think looking back to the 601 00:35:39,116 --> 00:35:43,116 Speaker 1: past can be really useful because we do have effectively 602 00:35:43,196 --> 00:35:45,916 Speaker 1: kind of data sets. We can look at other cases, 603 00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:49,596 Speaker 1: we can see how long these problems have been in existence, 604 00:35:49,756 --> 00:35:52,196 Speaker 1: and we question that, and then it can help us 605 00:35:52,236 --> 00:35:55,836 Speaker 1: reflect on why we haven't been able to adequately address 606 00:35:55,876 --> 00:35:59,516 Speaker 1: these problems today. So, you know, history does serve a 607 00:35:59,556 --> 00:36:02,556 Speaker 1: really important purpose and we can really harness that. But 608 00:36:02,676 --> 00:36:05,636 Speaker 1: it is interesting effectively, Like I'm looking at this very 609 00:36:05,716 --> 00:36:08,356 Speaker 1: much as a historian, So I'm interested in sort of 610 00:36:08,436 --> 00:36:11,316 Speaker 1: social three data sets, and so I'm looking at two 611 00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:14,596 Speaker 1: sets of like what has changed, what has stayed the same? 612 00:36:15,196 --> 00:36:17,956 Speaker 1: Women had much more opportunity in the twentieth century. So, 613 00:36:17,996 --> 00:36:21,516 Speaker 1: for example, woman like Evelyn Hamilton, who was the first victim, 614 00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:26,356 Speaker 1: really escaped this kind of pattern of poverty that was 615 00:36:26,556 --> 00:36:29,956 Speaker 1: very similar to what someone like Annie Chapman or Paul 616 00:36:30,116 --> 00:36:33,476 Speaker 1: Nichol's experience. She came from a very similar background, but 617 00:36:33,596 --> 00:36:38,556 Speaker 1: because education was so much more widely available to women 618 00:36:38,756 --> 00:36:43,036 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century, she was able to train as 619 00:36:43,076 --> 00:36:47,036 Speaker 1: a pharmacist and to be a single woman who lived 620 00:36:47,036 --> 00:36:50,276 Speaker 1: on her own, who supported herself. She got a degree, 621 00:36:50,396 --> 00:36:54,596 Speaker 1: she took exams, she got qualifications, and her sister, again 622 00:36:54,636 --> 00:36:57,916 Speaker 1: from the same background, became a nurse, went into nursing. Now, 623 00:36:57,956 --> 00:37:01,676 Speaker 1: this only started to happen for women really at the 624 00:37:01,996 --> 00:37:04,236 Speaker 1: very very end of the nineteenth and beginning of the 625 00:37:04,236 --> 00:37:07,276 Speaker 1: twentieth century, and all these possibilities opened up for them, 626 00:37:07,556 --> 00:37:12,876 Speaker 1: women of the working classes, and it completely revolutionized women's 627 00:37:12,916 --> 00:37:16,676 Speaker 1: lives and their ability to be autonomous, which is amazing, 628 00:37:16,876 --> 00:37:19,316 Speaker 1: to make their own money, to make their own money, 629 00:37:19,356 --> 00:37:22,556 Speaker 1: and to be independent. But you know, the interesting thing is, 630 00:37:22,596 --> 00:37:25,156 Speaker 1: like the fact that she was a victim of the 631 00:37:25,196 --> 00:37:29,436 Speaker 1: Blackout River is kind of questioning this autonomy that women 632 00:37:29,476 --> 00:37:32,196 Speaker 1: had also at the time and during the Second World war, 633 00:37:32,476 --> 00:37:35,876 Speaker 1: like everything was in disarray, you know, the men were gone, 634 00:37:36,356 --> 00:37:39,876 Speaker 1: women were shagging American soldiers and like everybody that they 635 00:37:39,916 --> 00:37:42,276 Speaker 1: felt able to. You know, there were women entering the army, 636 00:37:42,716 --> 00:37:44,676 Speaker 1: you know, and it was kind of believed it was 637 00:37:44,716 --> 00:37:47,196 Speaker 1: like a kind of sexual free for all with these women. 638 00:37:47,636 --> 00:37:49,956 Speaker 1: And there was a lot of misogyny as a result 639 00:37:49,996 --> 00:37:52,836 Speaker 1: of this, and a lot of this misogyny led to violence. 640 00:37:53,276 --> 00:37:57,596 Speaker 1: The army in many cases upheld this misogyny and still does. 641 00:37:57,796 --> 00:38:00,916 Speaker 1: We talked to a former member of the US Army, 642 00:38:00,996 --> 00:38:06,516 Speaker 1: a woman who talks about the treatment she received, about 643 00:38:06,596 --> 00:38:10,956 Speaker 1: how women just accept rape and sexual assault within the 644 00:38:11,076 --> 00:38:14,556 Speaker 1: army today and that was what women of the ATS 645 00:38:15,116 --> 00:38:18,516 Speaker 1: during the Second War we're expected to do. Also. It's amazing, 646 00:38:18,556 --> 00:38:20,316 Speaker 1: and it just you look at things like that and 647 00:38:20,356 --> 00:38:22,716 Speaker 1: then you're horrified, like I can't believe that happened, And 648 00:38:22,756 --> 00:38:24,996 Speaker 1: then you find trace echoes of it, or not even 649 00:38:25,036 --> 00:38:27,436 Speaker 1: an echo that it's actually still very much in force today. 650 00:38:27,476 --> 00:38:30,116 Speaker 1: We're still doing the same thing again. This is like 651 00:38:30,156 --> 00:38:34,476 Speaker 1: the thing that is just so chilling about whether it's 652 00:38:34,516 --> 00:38:37,236 Speaker 1: the victims of Jack the Ripper, whether it's what happened 653 00:38:37,316 --> 00:38:40,156 Speaker 1: during the Second World War, these problems are still here. 654 00:38:40,756 --> 00:38:42,596 Speaker 1: You know, it's really hard to kind of sit there 655 00:38:42,636 --> 00:38:45,996 Speaker 1: with this and think, why, why after all of these 656 00:38:46,076 --> 00:38:49,276 Speaker 1: years some cases, you know, one hundred and thirty years 657 00:38:49,316 --> 00:38:54,836 Speaker 1: longer even, why are we still content to live with this? 658 00:38:55,316 --> 00:38:58,036 Speaker 1: Why is this still a part of our lives? Oh? Helly, 659 00:38:58,076 --> 00:39:00,156 Speaker 1: I wish I had an easy anthrophy, but it has 660 00:39:00,196 --> 00:39:03,396 Speaker 1: been amazing to talk to you. Thank you so much. 661 00:39:03,436 --> 00:39:05,476 Speaker 1: If people want to know more about you or your work, 662 00:39:05,516 --> 00:39:08,276 Speaker 1: where can they find you? Well, I'm on Twitter, I 663 00:39:08,356 --> 00:39:10,916 Speaker 1: have a website which is my name dot com Hallie 664 00:39:10,996 --> 00:39:15,676 Speaker 1: Ribbin Holts. But most importantly, please listen to Bad Women, 665 00:39:16,156 --> 00:39:18,596 Speaker 1: both season one and season two, which is dropping on 666 00:39:18,636 --> 00:39:21,596 Speaker 1: the eleventh of October wherever you get your podcasts. It's 667 00:39:21,636 --> 00:39:23,876 Speaker 1: so good anto I can't recommend it enough. Thank you 668 00:39:23,956 --> 00:39:26,556 Speaker 1: so much for joining me today. Oh it's been an 669 00:39:26,556 --> 00:39:32,276 Speaker 1: absolute pleasure. Always fun to talk to you, Kate. Thank 670 00:39:32,316 --> 00:39:34,516 Speaker 1: you so much everyone for listening, and thank you to 671 00:39:34,596 --> 00:39:37,716 Speaker 1: Hallie for coming on the podcast and for sharing your research. 672 00:39:38,196 --> 00:39:41,156 Speaker 1: Please do check out her podcast Bad Women. It's so 673 00:39:41,196 --> 00:39:43,316 Speaker 1: good and if you like what you've heard, please don't 674 00:39:43,356 --> 00:39:45,596 Speaker 1: forget to like with you and subscribe wherever it is 675 00:39:45,636 --> 00:39:48,116 Speaker 1: that you get your podcasts. We honestly do love it 676 00:39:48,196 --> 00:39:51,396 Speaker 1: hearing your feedback. We've got episodes coming up on Gothic 677 00:39:51,436 --> 00:39:55,036 Speaker 1: Fiction in Decent Exposure and Haunted Houses, and I'll see 678 00:39:55,076 --> 00:39:59,036 Speaker 1: you soon. This episode includes music by Epidemic Sound