1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Anybody that knows me 2 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: knows that over the past few years, I've developed a 3 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: real love of water. And I don't mean to say 4 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: that in the sense that I finally discovered showering for 5 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: the first time in my life. What I mean by 6 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: that is the fact that I acquired an old boat. 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: It's nothing fancy, it's good enough for me and my 8 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: precious wife, and I spent a lot of time on 9 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: the local river, just cruising up and down it. Sometimes 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: we anchor out in a little cove and there's actually 11 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: these little islands on this river that we go to 12 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: and we'll kind of ground a boat and build a 13 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: fire and sit there and just talk about life and 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: listen to music. Matter of fact, probably my favorite thing 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: to listen to is Van Morrison. While I'm sitting there, 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: I could listen to him for hours. But today I'm 17 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: going to talk about another river, and actually a lake 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: that is part of the bigger river is what we 19 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: call an impoundment. The river is actually the Colorado River, 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: and I think that just by name alone, you would 21 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: probably think, oh wow, this must run right through the 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: heart of the rocky mountains and no, it doesn't. It 23 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: actually is a few states away. It runs through Texas, 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: and there's one spot in this river that has been 25 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: declared a lake in the lake's name is Ladybird Lake 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. Is there a serial killer at worked there? 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: Let's talk about it. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 28 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: is Bodybags. David. Know you think I'm lying to your brother, 29 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: but I'm going to take you out to my boat 30 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: and we're just gonna cruise up and down the river. 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: You're gonna hang out, get some sunshine, but you never have, 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: Tom You're always working. 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: You know, I'll make the time to go to the river. 34 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: But I'm a little concerned that you want to, you know, 35 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: invite me down to the river the day we're doing 36 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: a show about possibly the Ladybird Lake killer, the Rainy 37 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: Street killer, whatever you want to name him or her 38 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: for Austin, Texas, a serial killer on the loose. Possibly maybe, 39 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: I don't know, But that's when you want to invite 40 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: me to the river, is when we're talking about death 41 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 2: around a body of water. Thanks, Joe. Let's get into 42 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: this though. Today we're looking at Ladybird Lake, which I 43 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: didn't know anything about until I started looking into this 44 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: idea that some people believe there is a serial killer 45 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: at work and they call him the Ladybird Killer or 46 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: the Rainy Street killer. And these are people in that 47 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: local area in Austin, which Austin has been a very 48 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,119 Speaker 2: hot spot over the last several years. A lot of yeah, 49 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: the entertainment world. A lot of people moved to Austin 50 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: and own property in things in Austin. 51 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 1: So, yeah, try to pay rent there by the way, 52 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: Is that bad? Oh my gosh. I've had two friends 53 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: from California that moved there and they said, wow, really Yeah, 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: Look when Joe Rogan shows up in a place like 55 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: that and he puts roots down there, You've got all 56 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: these other people that are moving in from the entertainment industry. Yeah, 57 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: it's going to get pricey. It is going to get immediately. Yeah. 58 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: But the bottom line being the bottom line in life, 59 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: you have two choices. You can either choose a path 60 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: that brings you joy and satisfaction, or you can choose 61 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: another way. Life is like that, Yeah, and I choose 62 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: to I choose to do something I believe makes a 63 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: difference and what you and I do on a daily 64 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: basis dealing with crime, the after effects of crime, solving 65 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: solving crimes in terms of the body and what happened 66 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: to me. There are people every day that are You 67 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: and I both agreed there's no such thing as closure, 68 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: but there are people who are being emotionally satisfied by 69 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: understanding things a little bit better of what happened to 70 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 2: their loved one or in our case, many times we're 71 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: speaking for the person who can't speak for themselves anymore. 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: And that's very important as a human being to understand 73 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 2: that life is precious, and too many times it is disregarded. 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: We have people that are growing up that don't believe that. 75 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: They do not believe life is precious. 76 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: No, they don't, and I think that there are It's 77 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: sad enough in the case of all of these deaths, 78 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: and there's a willbarrow full of them. 79 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: That's the thing, Joe here, that we actually have to 80 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: separate the ones out that we think might be connected. 81 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a luminous It's sad enough that these people 82 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: are found deceased, because with everybody that you find along 83 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: the way, there is a family that's out there. I 84 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: like to use the idea of the empty chair, there's 85 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: an empty chair around somebody's table that will never be 86 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: occupied by that person again, and it's absolutely heartbreaking when 87 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: you see it played out over and over again. And 88 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: some of the issues with these so called Lady Bird 89 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: Lake deaths is that there's not connectivity necessarily with a 90 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: lot of these things. It's not a vast area. I 91 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: think it's just over four hundred acres this lake is, 92 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: and by many people's estimations, that's not a huge, huge lake. 93 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: You know, you consider some of the places that are 94 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: out there, but it's significant enough, and you've got multiple 95 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: points of entry, and we can go in to that. 96 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: But it's just the idea that just because you have 97 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: people being found deceased in a location does not a 98 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: serial event make and you have to be very very 99 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: careful with that, and particularly in you know, when I 100 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: look at it through my eyes and try to take 101 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: the long view of it, and I think about the 102 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: serial events that I was involved in as an investigator 103 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: over the years, both in New Orleans and Atlanta, words 104 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: have to be chosen very very carefully because you can 105 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: literally send people into a frenzy. And one of my 106 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: favorite movies of all time is Jaws. I love the 107 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: book too, but I love the movie because it's so 108 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: the characters, you know, just kind of pop to life. 109 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: And the mayor in that who's this real smarmy guy. 110 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: He's admonishing the sheriff in this thing because the sheriff Brodie, 111 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: he's trying to secure the beach and he says, wait 112 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: a minute, he says, you say bear Kuda, And people say, 113 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: what huh? You say shark? And you got a panic 114 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: on your hands. And we've seen this played out now 115 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: loath these many months, you know, and just within the 116 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: last couple of weeks, they've recovered two more bodies out 117 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: of Ladybird Lake. And just like words can damage people, 118 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, you say things to people, maybe loved ones, 119 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: You use certain terms, you say things that are not 120 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: necessarily what edifying. When you throw out the term serial 121 00:07:54,200 --> 00:08:00,559 Speaker 1: killer into a community, you damage that community. And before 122 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: we talk about anything else, I'm in no position to 123 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:09,239 Speaker 1: admonish anybody, but I would suggest, strongly suggest that people 124 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: begin to kind of throttle back their rhetoric in regards 125 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: to this, because now you've got you're building reputations here, 126 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: a reputation of a location where I'm sure that there 127 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: have been great times had by many people along the 128 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: shores there. This place was first impounded I think back 129 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: in the sixties, and for long, a long time, it 130 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: was regarded as an ey sore and until you know, 131 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: the former first lady stepped in, Lady Bird Johnson, and 132 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, began to work on this and establish it, 133 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: clean it up. It was. It was considered a not 134 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: so desirous location. But now you know, and I listen, 135 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: just a few years ago, I've got to I got 136 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: to make it, admit this. I'd never been to this 137 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: location before, but just a couple of years ago, Kim 138 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: and I went to Crime Con when it was held 139 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: in Austin. We had a blast there. By the way, 140 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: I loved the city, I love the time that we 141 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: spent there. But I got to see this place, and 142 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, when I was looking at it, Dave, 143 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: I didn't really know what I was looking. I thought 144 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: I was looking at a river. And it is technically 145 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: a river, it's the Colorado River, but it's kind of 146 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: quaterned off because you've got dams, yeah, on each end, 147 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: and that kind of plays into a lot about what 148 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about. 149 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: Today they diverted it to create a cooling bond for 150 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: a power plant, is what it amounts to. It actually 151 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 2: has a reason, you know, for being there. The reason 152 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: it exists, it actually has. It wasn't natural, you know, 153 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: it was created and as you mentioned, you get too damn. 154 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: You've got a lot of issues going on and a 155 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: lot of bodies. But just to give you an idea, 156 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: Ladybird Lake built in nineteen sixty It is you mentioned, 157 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: a four hundred and sixteen acre lake. It is primarily 158 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 2: used for recreation now, but there have been so many 159 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: deaths reported in the last couple of years that depending 160 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 2: on how you want to frame the story, you could 161 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 2: talk about twenty deaths, you could talk about four deaths. 162 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: And I think it's being very dismissive to just say 163 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: nothing is linked here. These are all just isolated incidents. 164 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: And because some of them are, but some are not right. 165 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 2: And that's why when I was trying to pull it 166 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: all together, Joe, there was for me. It started with 167 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: a story of a person who saw a body in 168 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: the lake and was like poking it with a stick 169 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: kind of thing, calling the police, you know, and it's 170 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 2: that it was like another body found in Ladybird Lake. 171 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: And when you start identifying all of them as one, 172 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 2: I think you hurt families that are mourning because you've 173 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: just lumped their family victim into this pool. 174 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: Very quickly. 175 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: The Gilgo Beach murders, you know, Reck Chureman gets arrested, 176 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: and people say, okay, we got the we have a 177 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: suspect in the you know what, we got a suspect 178 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 2: in four. There's ten bodies we're dealing with here. Yeah, 179 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 2: there's something else at work. And now is it getting 180 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: any attention? No? 181 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: Totally will listen. Hey, look from when I was a child, 182 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: uh you know, uh, you know I remember uh the 183 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: missing murdered children in Atlanta with Wayne Williams. Yeah, okay, Well, 184 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: first off, Wayne Williams was never convicted of killing a child. 185 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,359 Speaker 1: People he was convicted of one in particular were adults 186 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: and the male yeah, male male escorts. And here's one 187 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: other thing. When he was incarcerated, children did stop dying 188 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. Uh so you know, you have to be 189 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: very very careful. And that's why we have practices in 190 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: that are you know, associate with death investigation. You have 191 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: practices of people at profile individuals. They take all of 192 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: this data and put it together. And contrary to what 193 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 1: you see on television, the life of a profile er 194 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: is not this kind of sexy thing where they're riding 195 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: around in a cool car and going out to scenes. 196 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: Most of the scenes that are involved in these cases 197 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: in serialized events are gone. They're not showing up fresh. 198 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: It's a lot of work spent at a desk and 199 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: talking to people and analyzing data. And my way of 200 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: thinking is has all of the data been assessed? Because 201 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: when you do things like statistical analyzes, you have to 202 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: consider everything race, gender, location, and also more importantly, you 203 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: have to consider time. How long have bodies been popping 204 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: up in Lady Bird Lake. I found in life that 205 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: for me, at least, I can't speak to anybody else. 206 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: But if I have a task, it's better to compartmentalize things, 207 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: to take it piece by piece. The old adage, how 208 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: do you eat an elephant? You do it one bite 209 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: at a time. And I look at I look at 210 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: this data relative to these Ladybird Lake bodies, and I 211 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: want to ask, a, you're such a great wordsmith here, 212 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: holy moly, give it give us an give us an 213 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: idea kind of frame it out for us. What kind 214 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: of numbers are we looking that with. You know, normally 215 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: when you and I are talking, right, I say, you know, 216 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit something about the case. Well, 217 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: here we go, tell us a little bit something about 218 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: the cases, right, because that's very, very very important. Here. 219 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: The blurred lines are because of the numbers here. There 220 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: have been a lot of bodies pulled out of the lake. 221 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: Ten reported deaths since twenty twenty two, four in twenty 222 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: twenty two, five and twenty twenty three, one in the 223 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: past month, actually two in the past month. Now that 224 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: shows you how this has changed as I've begun reporting 225 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: and putting these things together. So just dealing with those 226 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: ten and by the way, we can go up to 227 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: twenty depending on how far back you go anyo oh exactly. 228 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: And I was telling Joe earlier that there are deaths 229 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: that happen around water all the time, all the time, 230 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: and so you can't just lump them all together and 231 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: pretend there's a serial killer that has killed twenty two people, 232 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: you know, at Ladybird Lake. That would be tantamount to 233 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: accusing Ted Bundy of killing everybody that died a lake. 234 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: Some Amish back in the seventies. He didn't do that. 235 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: Hey, I got to tell you something, you know. I 236 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: was talking about my boat earlier last summer. We were 237 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: actually sitting on the dock and yeah, just watching the 238 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: oh well, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Now. We watched a 239 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: guy that was so drunk he fell off of his 240 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: boat like a couple of times. Wow. We alerted the 241 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: people across the way, and there was a wileye fishery 242 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: guy that rode around a boat. We let him know 243 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: about it. And the guy, per our witness, had gotten 244 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: back into the boat each time with a lot of 245 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: difficulty and help from his friends. While we were just 246 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: sitting on our dock. Three hours later, they were dragging 247 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: the river. Oh man, and that was across away from us. 248 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: We'd cruised up the river. This guy died. He fell 249 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: off of his boat and drowned. Water water is like 250 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: dealing with a rattlesnake. If you don't know what you're doing, 251 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: it is deadly. It is deadly. Our bodies are not 252 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: equipped to be in a water environment, and so all 253 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: you have to do is mix alcohol, drugs, a health problem, 254 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: anything can come up, and you can wander. If you're 255 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: adjacent to a lake, you can fall in. 256 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: And we actually have a situation just like that. Joe, 257 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: one of the typical cases or boy that that sounds dismissive, 258 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: it's not. There's a guy named Jason John. Jason John 259 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: died day before Valentine's Day last year twenty twenty three. 260 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: In the autopsy report, the Travis County Medical Examiner's Office 261 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: determined his cause of death was drowning and the manner 262 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: of death was ruled accidental. 263 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: Yes. 264 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: According to the reports, thirty year old man Jason John 265 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: was witnessed by a bystander to be vomiting by the 266 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: bank of Lady Bird Lake and then subsequently falling and 267 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: submerged into the water in the early morning of February fifth. 268 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: I said February thirteenth, the minute ago, that's when it 269 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: was ruled to drying. I apologize. But on February fifth, 270 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: he falls into the water and this transient which means homeless, 271 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: homeless guy sees him fall into the water, tries to 272 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: get him out and can't get him out. The transient 273 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: guy goes to a hotel and calls nine to one 274 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: one and by the time you get there, they couldn't 275 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: find him. 276 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's gone some surface at that point, yep. 277 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 2: And toxicology report showed, you know, alcohol was in his system, 278 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 2: no illegal drugs, no significant internal or external injuries, no fractures, 279 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 2: no traumatic injuries, nothing, just he got really drunk and 280 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 2: apparently fell in the lake and drowned. 281 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: Well, let me throw this out to you since we're 282 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: talking in broad terms about cereal perpetrators. First off, I've 283 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm thinking back right now, going through my I've got 284 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: an imaginary paper file index going through in my mind 285 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: right now, and I'm thinking I have I don't think 286 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: I have ever encountered, even with friends and things that 287 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: I've read, I don't think that I have ever encountered 288 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: a case of serial homicide. Somebody will probably prove me 289 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: wrong involving using water, and specifically a body of water 290 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: as a means to kill somebody. Now, can't homicides be 291 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: accomplished these are the water, Yes they can, they can, 292 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: But those are those generally, in my experience, have occurred 293 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: in bathtubs where people have been particularly children, where they're 294 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: held held beneath the surface and they're drowned. But those 295 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: are most of the time, those are one off events. 296 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: It's not like you, you have these events that are 297 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: occurring where you know, you've got some guy twirling his 298 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: mustache over in the counter, over in the you know, 299 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: all dressed in black, saying I'm going to use water 300 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: to kill people with, and you know, you start talking 301 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: about accidental drownings and things like that. You know, you've 302 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: got to look at the toxicology. And as you pointed 303 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: out in this particular case, guy's got alcohol on board. 304 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: So how do you balance that out? And my question 305 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: is to you, is that we're looking for patterns here, right, Yes, Well, 306 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: you know how many of these cases have been ruled 307 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: actually an accident versus a natural or versus undetermined or hey, look, 308 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: give it to me. If you've got a homicide rite, 309 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,239 Speaker 1: let me know about it. Well, I'd like to know. 310 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 2: Here's the situation, Joe in Austin, Texas, where Ladybird Lake 311 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: is and where Rainy Street is. Oftentimes because of the 312 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 2: number of bodies pulled out of the water, they refer 313 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: to it. Those who want to act like they have 314 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: a serial killer, say Rainy Street killer. There might be 315 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: I'm not saying there isn't just saying that there are 316 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: a lot of people following crime. Now it's a very 317 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 2: hot topic. There are a lot of podcasts, a lot 318 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: of social media covering crime, and there are a lot 319 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: of people who are web slutes that really, you realize 320 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 2: we're not all the same mentally, and some people bring 321 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: a lot of weird baggage to how they look at 322 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: a story. And so trusting somebody online that created a 323 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: podcast or a show about crime doesn't give them any 324 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: insight into what they're talking about unless they were a 325 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: former investigator or a former forensic, you know, something along 326 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: those lines. Other than that, you've got armchair quarterbacks determining 327 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: what actually happened. And what we have here are we 328 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: have some similar deaths. They seem to be alcohol related. 329 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: They seem to have happened in the late night, early 330 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 2: morning hours after somebody had been on Rainy Street. And 331 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: the question is somebody targeting men of a specific age 332 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: or a specific look, that is targeting them in the 333 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: bars of Rainy Street and basically dumping their bodies in 334 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: the lake? Is that what this is a dumping ground? 335 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: And so when we look at some of these we 336 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 2: had Jason john as I mentioned this guy's puking on 337 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 2: the side of the lake and falls in. 338 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 339 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: No illegal drugs found in his system, no traumatic injuries, 340 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: just alcohol. Could something have been put in a drink 341 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 2: that he had that made him uncontrollable? I don't know. 342 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: Forty year old Cliff Axtell. This guy works as a 343 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 2: landscape specialist. He works as Veritas Commercial Properties. He's known 344 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 2: for his innovative strategies in real estate. Guy's very well 345 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 2: thought of, married to kids, excelling in his senior year 346 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 2: at Harvard Extension School, making the deans list each semester. 347 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: This guy is a good guy, and he's working his 348 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 2: full time job and leading worship at his church. But 349 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,719 Speaker 2: Cliff Axtell is seen at Stubb's Barbecue in downtown Austin 350 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: on March fifth, never makes it back home. His body 351 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 2: is recovered in Lady Bird Lake. Stubbs Barbecue is near 352 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 2: Rainy Street. Yeah, and police said the death is not 353 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 2: being investigated as his suspicious. It's his death is listed 354 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 2: as undetermined based on this scenario. I just laid out 355 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: for you who he is, what he is, what he does. 356 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 2: How does this? I mean, it is certainly suspicious, but 357 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: how do you not consider it? Did he just fall 358 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 2: in the lake and die? I don't understand that, Joe. 359 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: Right, and so depend upon the condition of a body 360 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 1: when it's pulled from a body of water. You know, 361 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that you're going to look for. 362 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: And if you're trying to look for patterns, which you 363 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: do in cereal crimes, you have to find patterns relative 364 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: to the physical remains. Because, as we know, it's well stated, 365 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: it's out there floating about. Serial killers very rarely deviate 366 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: from methodologies. They get very comfortable with it. 367 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 2: And when you say that, when you say deviate methodologies, 368 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 2: what are you actually saying? 369 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: Well, okay, I'll give you an example. I worked a 370 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: series of deaths of prostitutes many years ago in New Orleans, 371 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: and they were actually all up and down the Iten corridor. 372 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't just simply in Louisiana. That's what I'll say 373 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: about it. But in all of these cases, the individuals used, 374 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: in every one of these cases a ligature to kill 375 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: these these women. I had another case involving a series 376 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: of serial killings, again prostitutes, and the individual was using 377 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: a wire, not just a ligature, but a piece of 378 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: wire to choke these women out with. I've had another 379 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: series where elderly women were being choked bare handed by 380 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: an individual. And the reason I'm pointing this out is 381 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: that it's wow. I don't want to sound cruel or crass, 382 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: but it's almost like, this is the vocation. This is 383 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: not an avocation. This is everything else. Serial killers world 384 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: is all about getting an opportunity to kill again. They 385 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: might have a job, but that job is not the 386 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: primary interest in their life. Their vocation is actually killing. 387 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: So if you take that and you look at say 388 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: a craftsman who hate to use that, but if you 389 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: where they have a certain particular set of tools that 390 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: they that they use, they're not going to deviate from 391 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: that pattern. So here's what I would say to people 392 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: that may be thinking that the so called Lady Bird 393 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: Lake killer or the rainy Straight Street killer is a 394 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: serial perpetrator. Give me the evidence that these individuals have 395 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: been held underwater, because that's what would have to do. 396 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: And granted, hey, look I'm there with you. I mean, 397 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: you're saying that that perhaps they are inebriated or impaired 398 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: by drugs, and you're only target in one group. You're 399 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: going to take them down to the water's edge and 400 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: it's going to be like a some kind of weird 401 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: baptism where the individual is not going to be brought 402 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: up into new life, but will essentially pass on to eternity. 403 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: The one thing that I do know about water is that, 404 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: particularly in large bodies, you might not see it on 405 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: the surface, but water does flow. It might appear on 406 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: the top that it's tranquil and very peaceful, but beneath 407 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: the surface there is always some kind of current running 408 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: through it. Much like serialized homicide, there is always something 409 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of a flow. And I 410 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: think that's very important, uh, to identify here, not not 411 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: not just the flow of a so called serial killer 412 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: that's at work, but also the flow of the water 413 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: in general, because that's going to give us an indication 414 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 1: about about bodies and where they wound up. Because a 415 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: water environment is not a static environment. It's always changing. Heck, 416 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 1: even the even the shoreline changes, uh, And so it's 417 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: a it's a dynamic environment. It's not like an open 418 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: field where you find a body that's like lying there, 419 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, and they have a what's referred to as 420 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: a dumping ground. We hear that term a lot, and 421 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: I actually said it a little while ago. I know 422 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: you did, and I wanted to point that out. Dumping grounds, 423 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: you know, again, just like methodologies for killing locations where 424 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: they leave bodies right, it's very significant and you've got 425 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: to have access, you got to have cover many times 426 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: to do this. And I don't know if we're there, Dave, 427 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: we really don't. 428 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 2: I want to go back to something you were talking 429 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 2: about with the guy you witnessed with your own two eyes, 430 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 2: drunkenly falling into the water and getting back out and 431 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 2: getting into his boat, but eventually he did die. When 432 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 2: in the case of Jason John, where he has described 433 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 2: drunk throwing up on the shoreline of Lady Bird Lake 434 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 2: in Austin and he falls into the water and this 435 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: transient who is watching all of this can't get him 436 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 2: out of the water. I'm I'm a little fuddled by that, Joe. 437 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 2: Wouldn't the water, regardless of your intoxication level, Wouldn't it 438 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 2: be enough to if you fall in, to wake you 439 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 2: up enough that you could get yourself out. I mean, 440 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 2: apparently I'm wrong. I'm not going to say that. 441 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: Odd. 442 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 2: You're dealing with February here, the first week of February. 443 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: It's not going to be warm water. 444 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, even in Austin. You know, I think everybody associates 445 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: wrongly that Texas is a very warm place all year long. 446 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: It ain't, no matter of texts. A matter of fact, 447 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: some of the coldest times in my life have been 448 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: in Texas. It gets very It gets very very chilly there. So, yeah, 449 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: that that can certainly have an effect that time of year. 450 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: But if it's a man made lake, could it have 451 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: like a almost like a bowl effect where the shoreline 452 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: doesn't slowly come up, it just goes straight in. 453 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, bad, it could eventually. And yeah, when you're thinking 454 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: about a bulkhead where you know, for folks that don't 455 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: understand that it's almost like a sea wall that's built in. 456 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: Do you actually have a gradual shore where you kind 457 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: of and there are places along the lake where you 458 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: can kind of walk in gradually, But are there places 459 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: where you could fall over? And if you're impaired in 460 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: some way, are you going to be able to swim 461 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: back up to the top and grab the edge and 462 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: that sort of thing and pull yourself out. Well, the 463 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: let's face it, the drunk or you are, the less 464 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: control you have over your motor skills, and and so 465 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: with all of these cases that you know that that 466 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: we're thinking about here, you have to take that into consideration. 467 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons in these cases in particular, 468 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: the toxicology is going to play such such such an 469 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: incredible role because you get an idea as to perhaps 470 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: what their state of mind was. And it's not it's 471 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: not just alcohol, obviously, you're you're talking about any kind 472 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: of substance that they have on board at the time 473 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: of their death. The trick is, can you get to 474 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: the body soon enough in order to draw the samples 475 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: that you would need in order to assess that if 476 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: the body is so degraded, perhaps that might be bespoiled. 477 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: And there's a few of these cases that have been 478 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: left undetermined. My thought is is that maybe the bodies 479 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: were degraded or decomposed to a certain point where they 480 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: couldn't make that assessment, you know, with a lot of 481 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: concrete evidence. 482 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: Scientific evidence is a body like if it's left on 483 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 2: the shoreline or in just in the grass, it would 484 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: decompose a certain way based on temperature and things like 485 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 2: that and animals, But in water would the body, I know, 486 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: it would decompose differently. It would be the difference. 487 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Actually, here, here's kind of a little factoid 488 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: for people. If you have a you've heard the term 489 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: ada posts adapost, you have it, okay, So the term 490 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: adapose refers to fat, okay. And one of the things 491 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: that you see manifested on bodies that have been submerged 492 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: in water many times is called adapacere, and at apacere 493 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: is old. Theimer's used to refer to it as death wax, 494 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: and literally it's the fatty tissue beneath the skin. And 495 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: this happens in aquatic environments where it almost blossoms out. 496 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: And the only thing I can really tell people what 497 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: it looks like is hardened cottage cheese, only slightly yellow. 498 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: Some people will refer to it as having a cauliflower 499 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: like appearance to it. And what's really weird. The rest 500 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: of the body might be kind of softened up, but 501 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: when you tap the surface of the adepacere it many 502 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: times it'll have the firminent of an overinflated basketball. It's 503 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: a really weird thing. So and that's you know, like, 504 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: for instance, if we have a body that is found 505 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: up in a wooded area and it has at apacre. 506 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: We're going to know that maybe somebody pulled the body 507 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: out of the water after a protracted period of time, 508 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: planted the body there, left the body there after it's 509 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: been in a water borne environment. So it's it's one 510 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: of those weird little things you get, the distribution of 511 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 1: like post warmal avidity, the settling of blood, it's going 512 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: to be all over the place. It's it's almost like 513 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: the body is in a zero gravity environment, so it's 514 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: affecting the the settling of blood many times. So those 515 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: are just a couple of little things that we look for. Yeah, 516 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: it's it's it's bizarre not to mention aquatic life. And 517 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: of course it's going to vary from from well, you know, 518 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: from salt water, brackish water to fresh water. Fresh water 519 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: one of the things you're going to be looking for 520 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: with marine life. Life in particular in my experience, at 521 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: least or crawfish. Some folks say crayfish, I say crawfish. 522 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: You know that will feast on the body. You'll see 523 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: that many times. And also the topography of the water itself, 524 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: what lies beneath, because a lot of these lakes you 525 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: don't see it. If you could drain the lake and 526 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: look at it. You'll see all kinds of debris down there. 527 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: I mean all manner of things, particularly like trees. And 528 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: that brings me to trees and brush. That brings me 529 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: to this idea that you've got this Ladybird lake that 530 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: is dammed on both ends. Well, guess what happens with 531 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: a dam. They have to do a dam or lease 532 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: periodically because upstream and downstream. I think this is correct. 533 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: This body of water, the Colorado River place a big 534 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: in agriculture, and so they have to use this for 535 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: water sources for agriculture, they have to use it to 536 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: provide drinking water in some circumstances. And not to mention 537 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: the rex stuff, which is kind of an aside, But 538 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: when you do a dam release, Dave, I don't know 539 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: if you've ever been around a dam when it releases. 540 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: The first time I saw it, I was scared to death. 541 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: Oh it's terrifying. I mean, it will make mighty men tremble, 542 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: and you don't want to be near it. I've worked 543 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: a couple of cases in Atlanta that involve dam releases, 544 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: and when they blow that horn, buddy, you better be scrambling. 545 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: It's terrifying. And so when that wall of water pushes out, 546 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: it's the dynamics of that are going to affect the 547 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: distribution of bodies that are in there. So let's just 548 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: say that a body went in. I don't know, let's 549 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: just use Rainy Street because they seem to be really 550 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: hot on this topic, the Rainy Street Killer. Isn't it 551 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: amazing how they always apply a term to cereal what 552 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: they perceive as serial events. They've got to hang a 553 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: they've got to hang some kind of moniker on it. 554 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: But anyway, when that dam release happens, you you see 555 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: this push of water. If it's if the body or 556 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: a person goes in adjacent to Rainy Street, that can 557 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: push the body in any number of ways because it's 558 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: again going back to this idea of being on dry land. 559 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: The body is not set in that one position. And 560 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: you have to think also about the distribution of all 561 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: of these bodies. So if we took this, if we 562 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: took a big map and put it up and pinpointed 563 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: where the bodies were located, you would have to think, Okay, 564 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: where could this person have gone in and wound up in? Well, 565 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: unless the body is hung up and brush adjacent to 566 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 1: the shore. It's a crapshoot. You have no idea because 567 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: where you find the bodies is not necessarily where they 568 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: went in. And you know, one of the you know, 569 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: one of the big things that I'm thinking about is 570 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: this double murder that happened on Lake a Coney in 571 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: Georgia a few years ago. I think it's the it's 572 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: the Germans. I don't know if you remember this case 573 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: with the two elderly people. The husband was found decapitated 574 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: and the wife was found weighted down in a cove 575 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: that was almost three miles away from her home that 576 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: sat on Lake a Conee and I might have the mileotron, 577 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: but it was a distance away. Well, she was weighted down, 578 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: was she You have to ask the question, and again 579 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 1: that's a dam release lake and so was her body 580 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: pushed to that location or did somebody go in a 581 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: boat and drop her there? Could she have Could her 582 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: body have floated that far with a weight on it? 583 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, but you have evidence of this. And 584 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: that's why these cases are so very difficult to work 585 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: from a profiling standpoint. When you begin to think about 586 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: the distribution of them, where's the individual going to have 587 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: opportunity and access and the means in order to get 588 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: a body out into the water. How far away are 589 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: they from shore, what depth are they at? So you've 590 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: got all these considerations, Dave to think about. 591 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 2: And we're actually, as we mentioned, you know, we talking 592 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 2: about twenty bodies, and boy, that is so dismissive, and 593 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: I apologize. There are twenty people, give or take that 594 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: have been pulled from the lake in a period of 595 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 2: time that you can deal with. Okay, say two or 596 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 2: three years, four years, you can go back further than that. 597 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 2: But if you just the people who want to make 598 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 2: this into a serial killer event will pick out an 599 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 2: area of two or three years and say, we've pulled 600 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 2: X number of bodies out of Lady Bird Lake since then. 601 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 2: And the one idea was pull these four that are 602 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 2: similar and in each one of these, as we've already 603 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 2: covered with Jason John Okay, seen throwing up on the 604 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 2: side of the lake, falls in. A guy sees this 605 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 2: all happen, calls nine to one one can't get him out. 606 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 2: So when they do get to him, he's dead. You've 607 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: got Cliff axtell he was drinking. Oh no, I'm taking 608 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 2: that back Cliff Axtell was at Stubbs Barbecue, which, by 609 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 2: the way, it's in downtown Austin. It's right near Rainy Street, 610 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,399 Speaker 2: and they have a very vivid night life, a lot 611 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: of adult beverages being served. His body was recovered in 612 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 2: Ladybird Lake and police gave that an undetermined They don't 613 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 2: know what happened, is how he died or anything else. 614 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 2: Jonathan Honey, He's from Washington, d C. That was visiting 615 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 2: Austin for a bachelor trip. He was drinking with friends 616 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 2: that bars along Rainy Street. He leaves to find some food. 617 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 2: I'm hungry guys and grabbing a bite to eat. He 618 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 2: gets something to eat at a food truck on Rainy 619 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 2: Street and then vanishes. His friends are and missing. His 620 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: body has recovered the next day and Ladybird Lake alcohol 621 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 2: is found in his system, along with a couple of 622 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 2: over the counter prescribe medications. Medical examiner rules Honey's death 623 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 2: as an accidental drowning. Again, we're back to the same thing. 624 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 2: We got three guys you ever take the same age 625 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 2: and all end up dying in and around Ladybird Lake. 626 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 2: So that's when you get down to all of the others. 627 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 2: They don't fit. None of them fit a profile, these four. 628 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 2: And there's another one that I think is Nimoga to 629 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 2: Gael I think is his name, and they kind of 630 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 2: fit that same pattern of drinking with friends late at night, 631 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 2: end up in Ladybird Lake drowned. But all the others 632 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 2: kind of explainable. Is something other than that, But these 633 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 2: four you can't really explain. How did four people end. 634 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: Up drown Well, yeah, and I think that by themselves 635 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: that night, right, And so when you think about there's 636 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: a thirty year old by the name of Christopher Hayes Clark, 637 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: Jonathan Honey thirty three, Cliff exl that you had mentioned, 638 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: and then Jason John and I guess they're similar in 639 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: the sense that they happened happened in approximating one another 640 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: time wise. But is that the work? Is that truly 641 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 1: the work? Let's just be very open. Is that truly 642 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: the work of some sinister master criminal out there? Or 643 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: is this just dumb, dumb fate here if you will, 644 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: Where these individuals are inebriated or compromised in some other 645 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: way physically, where they fall in maybe they're disoriented, I 646 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: have no idea, and they get turned around and they 647 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: happen to go into the water. It's I don't know, 648 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 1: to me, one of the dangers here. I think there's 649 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 1: actually a couple of them. First off, when you start 650 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: throwing around the term and I say you, I don't 651 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: mean you, I mean the media. Let that sink in 652 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: for a minute. When the media starts throwing around the 653 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: term serial killer and they have other people that are 654 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: feeding into this. It's one thing to speculate on a case, 655 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: but now you become a driver of fear in a 656 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: particular location. You know, do I want to take my 657 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: kids down there? And then that from the general public 658 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: goes up to the people in charge and they say, 659 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: why aren't you doing anything else? Why aren't you doing 660 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: anything about the serial killer? Well, first off, we don't 661 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: have a serial killer. And the chief I think it 662 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: was the chief of police. Let me see what was 663 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:05,240 Speaker 1: that name? Yeah, Chief Greenwald. He had stated in April 664 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three that he's dealing with rumors. Can 665 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: you imagine every time he goes out in public. And 666 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: I know he gets paid to do a job, but 667 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: every time he gets goes out in public, he has 668 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: to address this issue. And trust me, Austin's got a 669 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: lot of other issues that have to be dealt with. 670 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 1: They're asking He's being asked, well, well, where's the you know, 671 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: why aren't you guys doing anything about serial killer? It's like, 672 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: what serial killer are you referring to? What proof? What 673 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 1: proof do you have that there is actually a serial 674 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: killer at work here in Austin. Please explain that to me. 675 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: Give me the details. Do you know something that I 676 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: don't know, or my investigators don't know, or that the 677 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: medical examiner doesn't know. If you have information, please tell 678 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 1: us and lay it out, I mean in detail, so 679 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: that we understand exactly what you're talking about, because lord knows, 680 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: if we have a serial killer, we want to interdict 681 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: the situation and put it to rect I mean, the 682 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: Chief's not sitting around thinking, oh my gosh, serial killer. Wow, 683 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: this will really get us on the map. We're just 684 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: going to allow this to go on and on forever. 685 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: They're going to throw the full weight and force. I've 686 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: been on serial killer task Force. I have seen what 687 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: kind of force is brought to bear on these things. 688 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: And you can read the room real easy relative to 689 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: this by virtue of who's involved in the overall investigation 690 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 1: because when a serial killer is actually identified in a location, 691 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: those elected officials and you can kind of they're the 692 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: barometer for this. The last thing they want is to 693 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: have open cases related to a serial killer. And the 694 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: last thing they also want is to not be demonstrating 695 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: positive action going forward to resolve this issue. There is 696 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,399 Speaker 1: nothing that will, you know, get somebody you know out 697 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: of office or have fingers pointed at them quicker than 698 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,959 Speaker 1: something like this because it literally terrifies the public. It's 699 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,240 Speaker 1: like I said, you know earlier about the analogy with Jaws. 700 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: You say Barracuda, people say what you say, shark games 701 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: on him. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybags.