WEBVTT - How Eyewitness Testimony Works(?) 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.840 Hey, everybody, it's Josh and Chuck and we're coming to 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:05.840 see you guys, some of you some cities. Just listen up. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.039 That's right, because you know, we just did Chicago and 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:10.719 Toronto and it went great, and I think our topic 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:14.960 of went really well. Sure did. Everyone loved hearing about 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.159 That's right. So if you're in Boston, he can come 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.439 see us in August twenty nine at the Wilbur Portland, Maine, Maine, 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:24.920 at the State Theater on August thirty. I can't wait. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:26.920 I'm gonna Labor Day weekend. I'm gonna stay the whole weekend. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.440 I'll be all over Maine. That's great, man. Where else 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.840 We're gonna be in Orlando on October nine, and then 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.519 on October t we're going to be in New Orleans, Man. 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:37.760 And then later on that month we're doing a three 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:42.479 night stand at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn. That's right. Is 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.400 sold out. You can still get tickets for the and 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:47.600 we will see you then. Check it out at s 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:52.000 y s K live dot com. Welcome to Stuff you 0:00:52.000 --> 0:01:01.280 should Know, a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.320 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.679 Charles W Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there, and 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:15.880 this is stuff you should know, the Continuing Courtroom Drama edition. Yeah, 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.240 this one. I think if you take our podcast on 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:26.280 memory and our podcasts on police lineups and they made love, Yeah, 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.480 then they would have this baby. I just came a 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:35.160 little aroused. Chuck can tell. Yeah, this is uh. I 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:37.520 guess two thousand eleven was the Memory one, so that's 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:41.200 been a while. Yeah. Also you could sprinkle in a 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:49.280 little photographic memory. Maybe that one was just watching. Sure, Okay, yeah, 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:54.120 I know. Hey, Jerry, how are you? That's right? Good, 0:01:54.240 --> 0:02:00.360 good answer. So, Chuck, Yes, have you ever been wrongfully 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:05.200 convicted of a crime based on eyewitness testimony? Not convicted, 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.639 but you have been indicted on it a crime? Not indicted. 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.520 You have been accused of a crime. I've been accused 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.720 of crimes. Really, I think you should dish about that. 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.040 You know it, crimes against humanity. Okay, I'm gonna take 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.520 all that as a no, you never have That's great, um. 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:32.440 But it turns out there are plenty of people hundreds 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.720 so far in the US alone, who have been found 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:40.520 to have been wrongfully convicted of crimes. Big crimes, I 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:45.200 mean crimes that have put them on death row, um 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:49.040 based on eyewitness testimony. And in the last few decades 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.079 it's become really apparent that eyewitness testimony is is really 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.760 not great. I mean we've known it for a long time, 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.120 but thanks to DNA evidence coming along, we can now 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.280 go back and say, um, yeah, this is this person 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.359 was innocent. Actually, yeah, you want to hear something, A 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:14.200 little story. So the UH we worked with a locations person, 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.079 actually two people, it's a couple on some of the 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:18.760 stuff you should know stuff back in the day. I 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:23.520 think some of the shorts and UH in locations and 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.800 I'm not gonna say their names or anything to protect them, 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:28.959 but they were riding their bikes and we're hit and 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.040 run last week and um, she's fine now, but she 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.600 was in the hospital. Was it was not great? And 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.120 they have I've been following this on social media. They 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:43.000 have video from you know, like everyone has cameras now, 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.920 businesses and homes and stuff. They have video of the incident. 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.440 They have the the car's license plate as clear as day, 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.200 the car as clear as day. The police have all 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.560 this stuff, and the police are like, nothing we can 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:57.640 do about it unless you have an eye witness that 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.920 can like say who the driver was? What the same 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:03.520 thing that happened to me in l A when you 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:05.520 know I told that story back, Uh in one of 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.760 our shows when I got hit and run and I 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:12.480 couldn't identify this young woman in a in a lineup card. 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.440 Oh yeah, they're like, sorry, she said she didn't do it. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.400 I'm like, that's all you gotta do is they didn't 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:19.599 do it, But the same thing is happening to them. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.080 They have You wouldn't believe the clarity of the videos 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:27.520 that show this car right hitting them and leaving and uh, 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.080 they're like, nothing we can do about it. Man, that 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.080 is crazy. So that's like a pretty good example of 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.280 the law being slow to catch up to the current 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.839 state of I guess the world basically. Yeah, I mean 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:43.120 they're they're not They're working the case and they're trying 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.240 to find out who did it, but they can't simply 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.760 go to the person's house who owns that car and 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.480 like arrest somebody. I guess in a way though that 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.320 I mean, it sounds stupid and and dumb, but at 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.120 the same time it is kind of reassuring, especially with 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.680 the rise of deep fakes, which we've talked to out too. 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:05.600 You can't just fabricate a video, especially convincing one, and 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.240 be like, go arrest this person, I guess. So. My 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.520 thought though, is like, go bring in the person who 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.760 owns the car and you will probably very likely find 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.880 out who was driving it. Sure if it wasn't them, Yeah, 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:24.479 especially if you are are really generous with the rubber hose, 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.920 you know what I mean, and the d louson I've 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.960 met more of the beating with the rubber hose. No, 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.600 I know what you mean. Okay, you took it a 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:39.240 different direction. A Rambo in First Blood? What did they 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.880 de loust Rambo? Yeah, they d loused him and then 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:48.480 hit him with the fire hose. Okay, huh. But all 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.719 this to say, I witness testimony like is what's needed 0:05:53.360 --> 0:06:00.760 in many cases to prove guilt. But it's so unreliable, right, 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.880 it's like a joke almost. It's well, it's the gold 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.600 standard in the American justice system, and I would suspect 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.400 just about every justice system that if somebody comes into 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:14.000 a court and points at them, at the suspect or 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:18.080 the defendant and says, I saw them kill that person. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.560 I saw them hit that couple with their car and 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.600 drive off. I saw them. Other people who make up 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:28.279 juries will be like, Wow, how are you gonna argue 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.920 with that? You can't this person swearing under oath that 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.440 they saw them do it. Um, they don't strike me 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.560 as a liar. They don't seem to have anything to 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:37.720 gain from lying about this. So I'm gonna go ahead 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:42.320 and believe this this person and convict. But like we were, 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.080 we've kind of been toying with a little bit and saying, 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:50.000 like I witness testimony isn't great. Um, you don't have 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.080 to have some sort of vested interest in sending someone 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.960 to prison. You don't have to be outright lying to 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.200 basically send someone to jail who's actually innocent based done 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.560 your own testimony. And while you're doing this, while you're 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.760 testifying a court, you might actually fully believe what you're saying, 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.880 even though what you're saying is fabricated and actually you 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.000 don't really recognize the person that you're saying you saw 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:17.400 commit this crime. Yeah, and a jury is way more 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:22.320 likely to uh convict if you're like super super sure 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.440 and you're like, oh no, that was the person. I 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.320 am positive. But as we will learn as we impact 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:35.400 this topic, um, that that confidence in court is not 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.600 there from the beginning necessarily. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.240 if you think that confidence sells it, if you have 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:48.240 a cocky witness, they'll just kill the defendant on the spot. 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.880 So like, are you one sure? And they go what 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.600 did I just say? Exactly? That kind of witness will 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.640 send you to the the electric chair or the lethal 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.760 injection needle everyday the week. They're called do I stutter witnesses? 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.160 Oh all right, let's get into this. We've been dancing 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.440 around it quite a bit. It's been a beautiful dance, 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:12.960 but let's get into it. Okay, Yeah, I guess this 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:18.280 nineteen fifty nine paper was kind of says it all. Uh, physiologist, 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:22.560 I'm sorry. A psychologist an attorney named Robert Redmount said 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.800 it has been suggested that the presumption is probably warranted 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.440 to the effect that a random person give an accurate, 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:33.280 original perception well in the ordinary course of events, reflect 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.920 a memory competent to serve most of the purposes for 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.760 which it is demanded. Which that's sort of a long 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:44.319 way of saying memory is good enough, right. Yeah. Basically 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.280 that that the average person walking around can serve as 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.320 a reliable eye witness to a crime basically, And what 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:55.679 what this nineteen fifty nine brief is basically saying is 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.320 like this is this is the state of affairs in 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.320 the American justice them that if you say you saw something, 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.680 and you say you're pretty sure that what you saw, 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.000 what you're saying, or what you think you saw is accurate, 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:12.040 the court system can rely on you enough to convict somebody. Yeah, 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.000 but almost to the point where it's like, can we 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:15.840 all just get on the same page here and agree 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.120 that we'll just believe someone when they say they're they're 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.280 really sure. Yeah, I mean it's smacks of that too, 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.800 for sure. It definitely does the like I guess the 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.439 guy was just trying to shore up any opposition to it, 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.880 and I mean that was um but long before that, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.840 there were chinks in the armor of eyewitness testimony and 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:42.040 just how reliable it was. Um So, I mean people 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.960 have been using eyewitness testimony for basically ever. It's probably 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.120 the oldest type of testimony or that there is in 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.880 any kind of court or proceedings or anything like that. 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:59.160 But starting in the early twentieth century, it as psychology 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.720 kind of developed One of the first things that psychology 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:07.200 took on was the reliability of memory and eye witness testimony, 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.079 and one of the first people to take it on 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:14.120 was a psychologist named Hugo Munsterberg. I got the um 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:18.280 lau correct. Thanks man. He wrote a book called On 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:23.000 the Witness stand In and he was he's known still 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.360 today as the father of applied psychology. He was a 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.680 psychologist who said, hey, he was how psychology can help 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.240 you in your day to day life, especially for day 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.880 to day life, is that you're being convicted of a 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:38.360 crime based on eyewitness testimony and um. He basically showed 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:43.120 through a lot of experiments and exercises when he was 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:49.640 a lecturer at Harvard that memory was definitely not um Essentially, 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.400 just like a film strip or a videotape or for 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:57.880 today's kids in MP four file, you know that that 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.360 we we don't just sit there and record the events 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.520 going on around us in the world at all times 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.200 and can go back and replay those events in our 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.720 lives and it's an accurate rendering of what we experience. 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.360 That's just not the case. Well, yeah, and this is 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.839 uh with with students where they knew that they were 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.240 doing memory tests and quizzes, and they knew that they 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.240 were there to do that and had to focus on 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.760 this stuff and uh, you really need to concentrate and 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.440 remember what I'm about to show you, maybe have a 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.520 sandwich beforehand. Yeah, And they were still inaccurate and really 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.880 demonstrated what we all now know is the fact that 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:40.160 human memory is very fallible. Like, forget about just happening 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.160 down the street. You got a million things on your mind. 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.520 You're right in the middle of texting someone and you 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.880 look up and you see a crime happen like that 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.360 has Uh. After reading this stuff, it seems like very 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.720 little probability of you getting that stuff right right. Yeah. 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.520 I saw somewhere that smartphones in general are Um, they're 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.280 good that you know, they can help capture video of 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.200 a crime or a photo of a crime. But at 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:07.960 the same time, they really make a lot of witnesses 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.720 unreliable because everyone is so distracted by their smartphones that 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.400 they don't really see what's going on or don't you know, 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.120 they might have otherwise been a really good witness, but 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.120 they were kind of glued to their phone at the time. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.719 I mean, you can that's true without even uh, I 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.600 mean that's true about everything when it comes to smartphones. 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.520 I wasn't paying attention. I was looking at the phone 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.760 or the people that. You know, if I can complain 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.640 about concerts again for a moment, go ahead, man. The 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:38.520 people that videotape entire songs are usually looking at it 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:40.960 through their phone, and that's the worst possible way to 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:46.480 experience alive musical moment. It really is, especially when you 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.400 consider that they will probably never go back and watch 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:55.360 that video. You know, justin my buddy, uh, my tall 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.920 British friend, he he yells from behind them so you 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.400 can hear it on the video. You're never gonna watch 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:05.280 it as loud as he can, which is great. He's 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.480 probably right like eight percent of the time, I would say, 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:10.280 But I would like to see the next day where 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.560 some of those people watch it and they hear justin 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.480 in the background, Sam, You're never going to watch it. 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.360 They're probably like, what is that guy talking about? Or 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:18.840 he's like the person watching is like, I showed that 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:23.600 guy right, so um Hugo Munsterberg. He wrote this thing 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.480 on the witness stand basically saying we should not just 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.720 you know, take everyone's word for it. When an eyewitness 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.560 comes forward in a criminal proceeding like there's problems with memory, 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:38.280 and I've just demonstrated it. But his writings were largely 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:42.640 overlooked because during World War One he was from Germany, 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.640 but he became a German American. Um he wandered around 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.599 vocally supporting Germany during the First World War, which is 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:52.920 not something you want to do back then. It's not 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.320 a good way to get your book out there. No, 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.080 so he was he was basically just ignored for many, 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.320 many years, even though he was one of the first 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.920 psychologists to take up this mantle. And it wasn't until 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.720 about the mid seventies that psychology again took this up. 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.200 And there were two psychologists in particular, a guy named 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.840 Robert buck Out who basically was was the first to 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.600 be like memory is not a videotape is one way 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:22.120 to put his research. And then another um psychologists a 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:26.760 very famous psychologist named Elizabeth Loftus in the later seventies 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.600 a few years after buck Out, Um was really the 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:33.680 one whose work kind of captured the popular imagination and 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.600 made us all realize that we're just total frauds when 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.640 we're recalling a memory. Well, yeah, and with the advent 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:45.160 of DNA evidence, and when you know, all it took 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.520 was a building up of cases being overturned because of 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:55.840 DNA evidence where eyewitness testimony that was positive was directly overturned. 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.240 You get enough of those mounting up, and then all 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.200 of a sudden, the United States has a p problem 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.160 on their hands and they have to say, well, maybe 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.040 we really need to look into this whole thing about 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.280 memory and I witness testimony not being super reliable. Right, 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:14.680 let's take the next thirty years to mull it over. Basically, sure, so, um, yeah, 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.120 that was the the Innocence Project in particular. There have 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.840 been people working to exonerate people based on faulty evidence, 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.440 which really got a punch in the arm or shot 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.080 in the arm after DNA evidence, like you were saying, 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.800 But the Innocence Project in particular, um was started in 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.760 and they've got like I think three hundred and sixty 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.480 five exonerations under their belt, one for each day of 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.480 the year, exactly, do it on the on the daily. 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.600 We did a we did a show on that too. 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.840 So yeah, you remembering in we talked to Paula is 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:51.640 On That's right, So I can tell by that sigh, 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.720 I think you're ready for a message break, you want 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.680 to take one. Yeah, I'm just gonna google some some 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:02.320 Polosan trying to remember who she was. We'll be back 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:32.680 right after this. Alright, So, Chuck, we've been talking a 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.440 lot of smack about the human memory. Let's back it 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.400 up with some some facts and figures and stuffy. Yeah, 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.840 I mean there have been, like you said, the past 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.000 thirty years is when the United States started doing I 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.520 just said United He started doing more and more studies 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.840 on on the human memory and how accurate it is, 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:56.080 and it is really exposed the flaws and biases, um, 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.320 and it's really not even I mean, it is memory, 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.200 but it's also perception and what we perceive is going on, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.480 and there are a lot of like we don't all 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:10.560 agree on what perception even means, and there are a 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.040 lot of different theories about how visual perception works. Yeah, 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.080 there's like a two fold issue with memory. There's the 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.320 formation of memory and then there's the recall. Right, so 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.199 with the formation of memory, it's like, yeah, if you 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.760 can't agree on what constitutes reality, you know, it makes 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.240 it really tough to perceive reality and like a standard, uniform, 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.000 objective way. But you can form a wrong memory that's 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:37.160 like that should stop everyone cold in their tracks, right exactly. 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.760 And there's the the this is there's basically two ways 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:45.640 of looking at um at at how we perceive reality. 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.679 And it is either reality exists in some way that 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.199 we don't perceive and we kind of paint this picture 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.720 that we think of as reality but that's not actually 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:59.200 really reality, or reality is reality but we just kind 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:05.159 of um perceive it piecemeal um in in order to 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:09.879 save energy, save time, save storage space, whatever. But the 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.320 upshot of both of these, and I really want to 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:16.119 do in an entire episode on the nature of reality someday, okay, 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.320 but the upshot of these theories on what reality isn't 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:24.320 how we perceive them is that we basically take what 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.879 we need from the environment, from whatever scene we're observing, whatever, 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:31.600 and then we kind of fill in the blanks to 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:37.120 create this complete picture. And in doing so, if if 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.159 we're just kind of walking through a meadow or something 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.480 like that, enjoying the day, that doesn't really matter, right. 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.200 We can kind of recall what that butterfly that flew 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.639 by looked like, what its colors were, what the trees 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.840 looked like, but if we really dig in, did we 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.040 actually look at the trees that kind of provided the 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.280 backdrop of the scene or is it just kind of, 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.359 uh a conception of what trees in general look like 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.159 in that situation. Um, that our minds filled in. And 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:10.120 when people started like thinking about this stuff, not just psychologist, 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.600 but neurologists, philosophers, all these a lot of different people 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.960 trying to figure out, you know, how we go through 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.720 the life and reality and perceive the world. Um, it 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:23.520 became really apparent that we do a lot of shorthand 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.520 construction as we're kind of moving through life, and when 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.320 we're walking through a meadow, not that important. When we're 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:34.560 convicting a person of um, robbery and murder, then it 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.520 does become important. And it is an issue that we 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:39.560 just kind of fill in the blanks to create a 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.080 whole picture that didn't necessarily happen. Yeah. That I don't 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:47.760 know if anyone listening has ever seen the hollow mask illusion. Um. 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.240 That has to do with gestalt theory basically that our 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:56.400 perceptions are based on perceptual hypotheses. So like that's us 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:02.720 making these educated guests educated. Yeah, educated guests is about Um, 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.920 the sensory information that our eyeballs in our ear holes. 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:07.960 And we should point out that I witness testimony can 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:12.600 mean audio like thing you overheard as well. UM, I 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.240 don't know how well other senses of performed in court. 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.800 I was thinking about that, like, I guess, you know, 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.040 did you smell a chemical smell or something like that? That 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.239 That would be one, but I mean, I don't know 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.040 what else you would like. Did you did you feel 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:31.120 the murderer's touch taste? I don't know, did you lick 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.120 the guy who was robbing the gas station? But if 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.520 you look at the the great example of gestalt theory 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.080 and that UM perceptual hypotheses is the hollow mass. So 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.320 if you go online, there's one UM very famous one 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:49.000 of Albert Einstein, and it's basically, someone will show you, 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:54.119 UM what looks like UM, a mask of Albert Einstein's face, 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:59.920 and then they start to turn it around, and about 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.080 halfway through you realize that you were looking at the 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.520 inside of that mask and not the outside of that mask. 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:10.240 And it's painted, of course, but it's still uh concave, 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.560 so it shouldn't look convex, but it yet it does. 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.320 And it's a mine trick and it's really freaky. It is, 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:20.360 but it also just kind of goes to show that 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:25.440 our brains leap to conclusions basically. Yeah. Absolutely. Another thing 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.320 is that the whole Darwinnian approach is basically, if you're 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:33.280 in a in a dangerous situation, um, your brain is 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:37.000 going to quickly decide what's most important to pay attention 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:40.719 to in that scene. UM, And that that will of 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:45.320 course skew reality depending on what's going on. Plus also 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:48.480 so so so that's point one. Our brains fill in 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.480 the blanks probably more than we realize to create our 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:56.600 idea of reality and memory. Right, yes, and even when 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:02.879 we're actually actively taking in information the them just how good, 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:08.760 say like our eyesight is or our hearing is or exactly. 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:12.000 And that's one thing that that defense attorneys, in particular 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:15.360 will Um will try to attack is things like that, 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.159 like you know, do you wear glasses or contacts? Have 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.800 you ever had lay sick? Was it raining out? Was 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.040 at nighttime? You know how far away were you? Street 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.359 light was under repair? We have records exactly in the 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:31.320 whole courtroom goes, yeah, it's the big moment, and Perry 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:36.959 Mason shoots a duck. Perry Mason farts in court. I 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:41.440 didn't say that. I said he shoots a duck, all right. 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:44.680 It was his his thing at least at first and 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:47.040 the early episodes, and then the producers were like, this 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:48.840 didn't go a name where we're gonna drop this as 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:54.159 this thing your honor? I object, right, that's right. That 0:22:54.280 --> 0:23:00.000 was from episode three. Oh boy. Um, so they're there 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.399 has to be a standard here though, Um when it 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:06.439 comes to court and like how well people see? I 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:09.240 mean it can't. I mean it is case by case 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.440 and that every case is its own unique thing in court, 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:14.320 but there has to be some sort of standard as 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.880 far as like how well does somebody with vision see? 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:22.360 For instance, And there's a guy named Jeffrey Loftus, a 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:26.960 researcher from UH. I believe is that you dub dub, 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:32.800 and he kind of developed this formula on vision over distance, 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:36.359 which basically says, at ten feet you might not be 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:41.240 able to see eyelashes on a person's face. It's two 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.040 hundred feet you may not be able to see eyes, 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:47.640 and at five feet you could see a person's head, 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.720 but it's just a big blur. So like this could 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.239 be uh, and is this the standard that they use 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.600 in court. I think he's trying to to make it 0:23:56.680 --> 0:23:58.800 a standard, and I'm sure he gets called on as 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:01.240 a professional witness and says all this, But I don't 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:05.120 believe it's it's an actual um, like it's been judged 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:07.159 to be like the standards, like they don't without a 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:10.760 chart in court. No, but I think if you really 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:12.680 wanted to get the point across, you could do worse 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:16.680 than hiring Jeoffrey Loftus. Yeah, and I imagine don't they 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:22.320 also do uh did they test these people? Um? I 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:24.160 don't know. I think if you have a really good 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:27.640 defense attorney, you could probably ask that a witness, if 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:31.160 not go to an optometrist, at least have their um, 0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:37.399 their optometrist records subpoenaed. Or in the dramatic TV or 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.280 film version, you see the your honor, if I may 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:43.840 step to the rear of the courtroom, and you do 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:46.680 that move and then you know, you hold up two 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:49.560 fingers and you say how many fingers am I holding up? 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.119 And then what in the Mr Brady cross is a 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:56.520 briefcase and the guy with the nick brace on turns 0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:59.800 his head. What a chump that guy was? It was 0:24:59.840 --> 0:25:03.119 not committed, No, that's so great that you said that, 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:05.920 because it was between that or a Perry Mason joke 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:08.719 for me if I was going to swoop in. Okay, 0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:11.840 I don't know much Perry Mason. Did he fart in court? No, 0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:14.280 I just totally made that up. I don't know anything 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:16.359 about him either. It is no, it was Raymond Burr. 0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:21.560 He was ironsides, he was both buddy. But I mean, 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:23.760 if there was ever somebody that looked like he'd fart 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:28.240 in court, it's Raymond Burr. You know, even like put together, 0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:32.320 um clean shaven Raymond Burr from Perry Mason. Yeah, he 0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:36.320 does look Cassie, doesn't he a little bit? So Okay, 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:41.280 moving on, Chuck. There's also the problem um that researchers 0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:46.440 have found that we humans have a finite amount of attention, right, 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:49.080 and if there's a bunch of stuff going on at once, 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:51.399 or we have to pay attention to multiple things in 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:54.360 quick succession, it's been found that there are a lot 0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:57.800 of um problems with that that that we don't really 0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:02.240 do real well with pace stuff coming at us, especially 0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:05.520 when we're stressed out or in a high stress situation. Yeah, 0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:07.560 it's like this stuff is really neat there's something called 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:13.480 attentional blink, um, not intentional attentional And that's when, um, like, 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:16.760 when you're just looking around at things anywhere you are, 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:19.600 it feels like one big fluid thing where you're taking 0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:23.920 in everything, but that's not really happening. When you you know, 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:26.159 if I'm looking at this coffee cup and then I 0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:29.280 look up at your face, there's something called attentional blink, 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:33.400 which is a little blip less than a second where 0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:39.640 there is in um, I guess, just an interruption and input. Yeah, 0:26:39.680 --> 0:26:42.000 and your attention. Yeah, you know, you're you're shifting from 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:45.119 one thing to the other, and it's not a fluid motion. 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:48.679 It's kind of like a hiccup. But you don't notice this, No, 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:51.560 you don't. It all blends seamlessly because your brain is 0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:54.399 filling in these little gaps. But during that period, if 0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:57.760 something really vital happened, and that'say half of a second span, 0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:01.240 you might not notice it. And because we've already seen 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:03.600 that our brains tend to fill in information to create 0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:06.480 a smooth picture of reality. That could be problematic for 0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:08.800 the person who you're saying you saw do something or 0:27:08.880 --> 0:27:12.359 didn't see the other. Thing about attentional blink too, is 0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:16.000 that it really kind of points out that if, um, 0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:19.800 if we are really focused on one thing, we might 0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:26.120 miss another, that our attention is is very selective. Basically, Yeah, 0:27:26.560 --> 0:27:29.359 um yeah, you know, if you're like into your smartphone, 0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:33.920 you're not paying attention to stuff going on around you. Um, 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:36.399 even if like you're driving, like if you're driven up 0:27:36.400 --> 0:27:38.959 next to somebody and they're driving like thirty miles an 0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:42.680 hour under the speed limit, which supposedly is safe, but 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:45.359 you know, they're on their phone and you honk at 0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:47.399 them and like flip them off and like throw a 0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:50.000 rock at their windshield that kind of thing, and they 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:53.520 don't even look up. They don't there, No, they have 0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:56.320 no idea. That's kind of the same thing. But there's 0:27:56.320 --> 0:27:59.000 this really amazing video that I hadn't heard of. But 0:27:59.160 --> 0:28:02.840 these two magicians I know, Jared and John who are 0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:05.639 I hope are working on a podcast um about this 0:28:05.720 --> 0:28:08.199 kind of stuff. Um, they pointed it out. Did you 0:28:08.200 --> 0:28:10.200 go see that video that was linked in this article, 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:15.400 which one the one that was created by Daniel Simmons 0:28:15.400 --> 0:28:21.399 and Christopher shabrists or Chebris where it's the ball passing video. Okay, 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:25.760 so I don't want to give anything else out about 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:31.280 it to everybody. Just go look up Daniel Simmons ball 0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:35.480 passing video and prepared to be amazed. But it really 0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:39.920 drives home like what the them, Just how focused we 0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:46.040 can become at the expense of other information. That's right, Um, 0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:50.160 what else? Chuck? Uh? Well, there's something called the psychological 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:55.920 refractory period with the prp UM and that's when if 0:28:55.960 --> 0:28:59.680 two things, if two cognitive tasks, and this can include 0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:02.840 you know, you seeing things, uh, if they arrive really 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:06.480 closely together, there's a bit of a lag time between 0:29:06.520 --> 0:29:09.120 when we process these two things, that first thing and 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:12.400 then that second thing. So if these things are coming 0:29:12.400 --> 0:29:15.880 in quick succession, or they are very intense, or there 0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:19.360 are a lot of different stimuli, there is a little bottleneck, 0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:23.840 a processing bottle neck that can occur, and especially in 0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:27.760 a in a like a a scary experience like if 0:29:27.800 --> 0:29:30.440 someone sticks a gun in your face or something. The 0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:32.800 you know, the big example that you always hear is 0:29:32.840 --> 0:29:34.720 like what was the weapon? Was it a gun or 0:29:34.760 --> 0:29:37.960 a knife? And it's been kind of shown time again. 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:41.800 If you're if you are, if someone comes and sticks 0:29:41.840 --> 0:29:44.080 a gun in your face, you're going to have your 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:47.120 attention on the gun and more so than the face. 0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:50.360 M So you might not be able to recall what 0:29:50.440 --> 0:29:54.040 your perpetrator look like. Uh. You may have more information 0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:56.560 about the gun, which is a little helpful, but not 0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:58.840 as much as their face. Yeah. You know, I think 0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:01.920 I told you before that time that Umi got mugged. Um, 0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:05.960 she was not focused on the gun and did not 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:08.160 know that the guy had had a gun on her 0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:11.400 and her friends. Um, when she was asked if there 0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:12.960 was a gun at the cops station, she's like, I 0:30:13.320 --> 0:30:17.120 actually don't know, Like she didn't process the gun and 0:30:17.160 --> 0:30:19.080 her friends were like, yeah, there was a gun. The 0:30:19.080 --> 0:30:23.000 guy had a gun, Um, which is I hadn't realized. 0:30:23.000 --> 0:30:26.360 Like I get that, you know, not processing something because 0:30:26.400 --> 0:30:29.680 of a stressful situation, but it's it's funny, that's like 0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:32.920 the opposite apparently of how it usually is. Yeah, and 0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:37.320 I think you can sort of train yourself. I mean, 0:30:37.360 --> 0:30:39.760 hopefully this kind of thing doesn't happen over and over again, 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:44.120 and like to Umi or anyone else, but like I've 0:30:44.160 --> 0:30:48.480 sort of told myself, like, if anything ever happens, try 0:30:48.520 --> 0:30:51.560 and keep your wits about you and taking as much 0:30:51.600 --> 0:30:54.320 detail as you can and and like repeat it in 0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:57.240 your brain over and over. That's just good advice for 0:30:57.320 --> 0:31:02.640 like daily living. Sure, that's mindful in this, I think yeah, 0:31:03.640 --> 0:31:05.160 I told you before. I think it was the police 0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:06.960 lineups one that she was able to pick the guy 0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:08.800 out in the lineup, So maybe she was focused on 0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:11.480 the guy's face and was missing the gun rather than 0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:16.560 the opposite exactly, she was that a finger in your pocket, right, 0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:20.400 don't say the second part, So I'm not going to. 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:23.200 I'm just gonna leave it up to the listeners, dirty 0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:28.440 dirty listeners minds. So, um, there's also another one for 0:31:28.600 --> 0:31:34.280 forming memories that has kind of confounded researchers for a while. Um, 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:38.240 and it's called the own race bias or cross race effect. Yeah. 0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:40.400 We talked about this in police lineups, didn't we? I 0:31:40.400 --> 0:31:42.120 feel like we did, But I think it's worth going 0:31:42.120 --> 0:31:45.640 over one more time. So it basically is it says 0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:48.760 that if you are a witness, and you witness a 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:52.200 crime that's that's carried out by somebody from another race 0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:55.680 or ethnic group other than yours, you're going to have 0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:59.960 a harder time recognizing that person, um than you will 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:02.240 would if they were a member of your own race 0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:07.640 or ethnic group. And so the the it seems easy peasy, well, 0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:10.520 that you're just a racist and every everybody of another 0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:13.160 race looks alike to you. That's not the case. They 0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:17.800 found that people who score UM low on questionnaires about 0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:21.640 being prejudiced um also are subject to the cross race effect, 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:25.720 and that it's across the board for everybody of any race. 0:32:25.880 --> 0:32:31.000 They're all equally subjected or they're equally um, what's the 0:32:31.040 --> 0:32:36.520 word victims of it? I guess yeah, miss uh, it's 0:32:36.520 --> 0:32:41.400 in there somewhere misidentified. Now, they're equally susceptible. Susceptible. We 0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:45.280 got there, we got there, chuck. Yeah, that's true. Uh, 0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:48.080 and that's really interesting, Like you could you could test 0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:50.960 out as the least prejudice person on the planet and 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:55.280 still misidentify someone um from another race. Yeah. And they 0:32:55.280 --> 0:33:00.120 think that different races have different defining characteristics and that you, 0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:04.000 as a child and probably well into adulthood, are kind 0:33:04.000 --> 0:33:06.800 of trained to pick out the identifying characteristics of people 0:33:06.800 --> 0:33:10.080 of your own race UM, which doesn't necessarily apply to 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:12.640 people of other races. And so people really are bad 0:33:13.080 --> 0:33:18.360 at distinguishing different members of different races, not because they're 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:20.800 racist and everybody looks alike, but because they're looking for 0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:25.520 the wrong cues distinguishing cues. Yeah, and you know, sometimes 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:31.280 people can look like other people. It's uh. In the 0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:33.880 famous cases section, I'm gonna go ahead and pick one 0:33:33.880 --> 0:33:38.600 out of there, very famous case of Ronald Cotton. Uh 0:33:38.640 --> 0:33:41.880 In he was identified as a perpetrator of a rape 0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:46.920 sentenced to life in prison. And uh, I went back 0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.440 and I looked at the person who eventually was found 0:33:49.440 --> 0:33:53.680 out to be the the he was exonerated Cotton was, 0:33:53.720 --> 0:33:56.320 but the real guy, Bobby Pool that saw side by 0:33:56.400 --> 0:33:59.520 side images. These guys look a lot alike. They look 0:33:59.560 --> 0:34:01.840 at a lot out of like, like their noses are different, 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:03.960 but if you block out their nose, they're the lower 0:34:04.000 --> 0:34:07.200 half of their face and their eyes and forehead are 0:34:07.280 --> 0:34:10.799 really really similar. And I think that's just a case 0:34:10.840 --> 0:34:13.759 of really bad luck. It was really bad luck. It 0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:17.120 ultimately pan out to be really good luck. But I mean, 0:34:17.200 --> 0:34:20.480 the the victim, the eyewitness was the victim a woman 0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:24.759 named um Jennifer Thompson. And during the rape she did 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:27.680 she took your advice and like, kept her wits about 0:34:27.680 --> 0:34:30.360 her as much as possible and took the opportunity to 0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:35.800 study the guy's face. But because Pool and Cotton looked 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:39.440 so much alike, Um, she there was, there was. It 0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:42.320 was a case of mistaken identity of a witness who 0:34:42.400 --> 0:34:44.640 actually is we'll see. Was kind of unsure at first, 0:34:44.640 --> 0:34:48.120 but became more and more confident, which is a big problem. Um. 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:52.480 But when Cotton was exonerated, Um, Jennifer Thompson and Ronald 0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:54.359 Cotton went on to write a book about the whole 0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:56.800 thing together and their friends. They got to be friends 0:34:56.840 --> 0:35:01.480 because she experienced a tremendous amount of guilt for identifying 0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:04.440 this man and him serving time for something he didn't do. 0:35:05.280 --> 0:35:07.279 And yeah, they wrote a book together, which is now. 0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:09.120 I was like, oh man, that's tell me that's going 0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:11.360 to be a movie soon. And as of like a 0:35:11.400 --> 0:35:14.800 couple of months ago, it was. It was optioned O 0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:18.280 your film. Nice. It's called the books called Picking Cotton. 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:22.520 Oh my, uh yeah, I know, um Picking Cotton colon 0:35:22.640 --> 0:35:27.400 Our Memoir of Injustice and Redemption Semi colon. Oh god. 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:31.719 So yeah. The good luck he had, though, was that 0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:35.160 Bobby Pool and Ronald Cotton were in the same jail 0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:38.279 together and they were frequently mistaken for one another. That's 0:35:38.280 --> 0:35:41.920 how much they really looked alike, and I guess um 0:35:41.960 --> 0:35:47.040 Bobby pool um blab to another inmate that he was 0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:49.799 the one who had really raped Jennifer Thompson and that 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:53.919 Cotton was in there, uh wrongfully, and that word got 0:35:54.000 --> 0:35:57.240 around and then finally, thanks to DNA evidence, Ronald Cotton 0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:01.560 was was excluded from the crime. Yeah, nice sending to 0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:04.799 that story, it is, that's the only one in the 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:09.000 list that does have a nice ending there, that's true. Uh. So, 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:12.799 here's the other thing with eyewitness testimony or should we 0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:16.200 take a break to all right, let's take a break 0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:18.279 and I'll tell you about that other thing right after this. 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:51.319 So here's the other thing about eyewitness testimony is that, uh, 0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:55.080 like you have to do this a bunch of times. 0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:58.240 It's not like you identify someone in a police lineup 0:36:58.280 --> 0:37:01.000 and then you're in court the next day. You identify 0:37:01.040 --> 0:37:04.720 someone in a lineup, and then you're gonna get grilled 0:37:04.719 --> 0:37:07.520 by cops after that, and then you're gonna get talked 0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:10.520 to you by your attorney beforehand, and you're gonna be 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:14.440 recalling this and describing this scene and this who you 0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:17.480 think is a perpetrator a lot of times. And every 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:21.680 time this happens, Um something can go wrong with your 0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:25.399 recall basically, yeah, yeah, So, I mean, like we've talked 0:37:25.400 --> 0:37:27.640 about this so many times, but every time you recall 0:37:27.719 --> 0:37:31.879 a memory, you are adding to it. You're um, you're 0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:37.359 adding more information to it, right, and that information can 0:37:37.400 --> 0:37:41.000 be incorrect or flawed. And if we, if our brains 0:37:41.080 --> 0:37:44.320 kind of strive to create as complete a picture as possible, 0:37:44.760 --> 0:37:48.160 if the memory originally is incomplete, the more we recall it, 0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:50.680 the more we're gonna round it out to create this 0:37:50.680 --> 0:37:53.560 this this picture. And since part of the process, like 0:37:53.600 --> 0:37:57.319 you're saying, of going through the criminal justice system as 0:37:57.320 --> 0:37:59.920 an eyewitnesses to recall over and over and over again, 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:05.560 by definition, that process um leads to contaminated evidence, in 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:10.200 this case, the evidence of eyewitnesses um testimony. Yeah, and 0:38:10.400 --> 0:38:12.279 you know, not to mention when cops get in there 0:38:12.480 --> 0:38:15.520 and they ask leading questions a lot of times, and 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:18.399 even this one example is really great, even swapping out 0:38:18.440 --> 0:38:22.520 one word that you might not think matters if if 0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:25.720 you hear the questions did you see the broken headlight? 0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:29.640 As opposed to did you see a broken headlight? That 0:38:29.760 --> 0:38:32.120 takes on a whole different meaning because in that first one, 0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:36.200 the cop is basically saying there was a broken headlight 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:38.719 and did you see it not? Was there one? Yep? 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:41.719 That's called the misinformation effect, and it can be as 0:38:41.719 --> 0:38:44.799 innocuous as that it can be purposeful, like if a 0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:48.480 cop believes that the suspect is the one UM. Cops 0:38:48.480 --> 0:38:52.040 have been known to ask leading questions, and when you 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:57.000 have an eye witness who's kind of so so on something, 0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:00.279 after a few leading questions and they're answering, they can 0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:04.400 become more and more confident in their um in their 0:39:04.440 --> 0:39:08.120 their memory, their recall of the event. And then that 0:39:08.280 --> 0:39:12.400 coupled with the fact that well, this is the right person, obviously, 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:17.239 because the cops wouldn't be prosecuting UM or arresting somebody 0:39:17.400 --> 0:39:20.239 if it wasn't the right person. That just gives the 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:23.880 whole thing even more confidence. And studies have found over time, 0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:29.479 the more confidence um or the the longer and more 0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:33.120 often a memory is recalled, the more confidence grows associated 0:39:33.160 --> 0:39:38.279 with it. Right, right, So there's this, there's like a 0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:45.560 um a negative correlation over time between confidence and accuracy 0:39:45.640 --> 0:39:49.000 of a of a memory over time. That's a big 0:39:49.000 --> 0:39:51.960 distinction that we'll get into later. But the longer it 0:39:52.000 --> 0:39:54.640 goes on, so say like from the time of crime 0:39:54.680 --> 0:39:58.640 occurs to the time the court date comes or the 0:39:58.680 --> 0:40:02.319 trial starts could be a year, and you, the eyewitness, 0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:05.440 might have had to recall this for half a dozen 0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:08.239 people at least, not to mention all the friends and 0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:10.920 family that you've shared the story with. And so what 0:40:11.000 --> 0:40:13.919 a lot of people say is by the time maybe 0:40:14.000 --> 0:40:17.160 the second, third, fourth time you're recalling this, you're not 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:21.560 recalling your original memory any longer. You're recalling the story 0:40:21.680 --> 0:40:24.960 that was helped to be fabricated by the cops and 0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:28.560 the prosecutors and in some part by yourself. Just from 0:40:28.560 --> 0:40:31.480 telling this. You're recalling the story. You're not recalling the 0:40:31.520 --> 0:40:34.239 actual memory. And that's a real problem because that's how 0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:38.799 people get um wrongly convicted by eyewitnesses who go into 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:41.880 court and say, I'm a certain that that was the 0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:44.440 person that I saw commit that crime. Yeah. And the 0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:46.160 thing I mean, if you just think about in your 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:52.560 own lives, uh not, I mean, forget crimes and forget courtrooms, Like, 0:40:52.640 --> 0:40:55.000 just think about stories that you like, great stories from 0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:57.000 your life that you've told a bunch of different times 0:40:57.400 --> 0:41:00.360 about this one time when like these become so burned 0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:04.080 in your brain as these great stories that like I'm 0:41:04.120 --> 0:41:07.520 always curious too, Like I wish I had video of 0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:10.600 these stories as they happened. Does It'll be kind of 0:41:10.600 --> 0:41:12.880 fun to go back and see this funny story about 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:16.000 when like my friend and I got shaken down by 0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:18.600 the Texas Highway Patrol. Like I tell the story all 0:41:18.680 --> 0:41:21.200 the time, but it turns out, wonder what really happened 0:41:21.200 --> 0:41:24.200 that day though, right like by the by the end 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:26.360 of the store, by the time the story is told, 0:41:26.400 --> 0:41:29.959 it's like Chuck Norris himself as Walker Texas Rangers doing 0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:33.520 the search, or or my ghost story in Athens, Like 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:36.720 to me, I tell that story exactly as it happened, 0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:40.120 but who knows. Well, yeah, it's kind of like you're 0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:43.200 playing a game of telephone with yourself over time, you know, 0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:46.600 like stuff just gets kind of muddled and again, normally 0:41:46.680 --> 0:41:49.239 this doesn't matter, you know, unless you happen to be 0:41:49.280 --> 0:41:51.879 telling a bit of a fish tale to somebody who 0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:55.120 can't stand fish tales and and calls you out on it. 0:41:55.120 --> 0:41:58.840 It doesn't really matter, right, Like it does matter in 0:41:58.880 --> 0:42:01.400 a court of law, and the fact that the courts 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:04.840 have continued to pretend like this this isn't an actual 0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:08.640 implication of the human memory. The human memory is actually 0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:12.879 infallible and just continued on with eyewitness testimony has been 0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:15.120 a problem in the past. I'm not sure if we've 0:42:15.120 --> 0:42:19.560 gotten that across or not. And consider this too, that juries, 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:22.720 I mean, we talked about that confidence building over time. 0:42:23.320 --> 0:42:25.520 By the time you get to that jury and you 0:42:25.560 --> 0:42:28.720 are super confident, that's gonna have a huge impact. Juries 0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:31.600 are going to be far more influenced by a confident 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:34.839 witness than someone's like, Hey, I'm pretty sure, but you know, 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:37.439 if I'm really being honest, because I'm on the witness stand, 0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:41.160 I can't be sure. Yeah, that is a rare eye 0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:43.799 witness from what I can tell that that by the 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:46.640 time the trial comes along, they have been so prepped 0:42:46.719 --> 0:42:51.640 and and um guided and have become so confident that, 0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:54.240 from what I can tell, it would be really rare 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:57.280 to hear an eye witness be like I'm not so sure. 0:42:57.360 --> 0:43:00.080 Maybe they probably wouldn't make it to the wit in 0:43:00.120 --> 0:43:03.040 a stand because the prosecutor doesn't want somebody like that 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.520 on the stand. So what you're gonna hear in court 0:43:05.719 --> 0:43:09.319 is yes, I'm absolutely sure, And you know, juries are 0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:13.520 just normal people. They're not doing the research on you know, 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:19.040 the possible infallibility or the possible fallibility of eyewitness testimony. 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:23.600 So it's up to the defense attorneys to kind of 0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:26.920 poke holes in this stuff, and so they will. But 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:29.160 for a long time, this was really surprising to me. 0:43:29.200 --> 0:43:35.120 I had no idea um courts wouldn't allow expert testimony 0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:41.200 that that basically taught jurors how many problems there are 0:43:41.280 --> 0:43:44.839 with human memory, and that eyewitness testimony is not all 0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:48.560 it's cracked up to be, and that not only should 0:43:48.600 --> 0:43:53.160 you not be wowed by the confidence of somebody who 0:43:53.200 --> 0:43:56.800 comes into court a year after the crime is certain, 0:43:57.080 --> 0:44:01.480 you should probably discount that that testimony you all together. Yeah, 0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:04.279 And the reason that they weren't allowed is that they 0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:08.359 claimed that was common sense, Like everybody knows that our 0:44:08.360 --> 0:44:13.160 memories aren't great, and eyewitness testimony probably isn't great, Whereas 0:44:13.360 --> 0:44:15.960 it seems to me obvious that you would want to 0:44:15.960 --> 0:44:18.560 get an expert in there to at least explain this stuff, 0:44:19.080 --> 0:44:21.520 especially in like a capital case. Yeah, I mean, you 0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:23.640 can still make up your own mind, but at least 0:44:24.239 --> 0:44:29.480 know the facts and the science behind eyewitness identification, so 0:44:29.520 --> 0:44:32.839 you can like take that into consideration as a juror. Right, 0:44:33.400 --> 0:44:35.279 that's just not the case, that wasn't it. But then 0:44:35.320 --> 0:44:41.800 apparently they started um turning overturning convictions because the expert 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:47.600 witness on eyewitness testimony UM was disallowed. And once that 0:44:47.680 --> 0:44:51.360 started happening, they started allowing them in the actual trials. 0:44:51.360 --> 0:44:53.400 But that's kind of like, if you have a defense 0:44:53.440 --> 0:44:58.520 attorney and you're you're, you know, being um tried for 0:44:58.600 --> 0:45:01.400 a really important cry that you could get some serious 0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:04.440 time for. Do you want that attorney to bring in 0:45:04.480 --> 0:45:09.440 an witness, an expert witness on eyewitness testimony? For sure? Yeah. 0:45:09.520 --> 0:45:13.960 The Supreme Court themselves in nineteen seventy seven ruled seven 0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:18.640 to two, uh, that eyewitness testimony is constitutional. It does 0:45:18.719 --> 0:45:22.960 not violate the fourteenth Amendment, even if it's suggestive. But 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:26.760 they said it was subject to five factors. That just depends. 0:45:26.800 --> 0:45:29.600 It's a case by case thing. But UM, the witness's 0:45:29.640 --> 0:45:32.680 degree of attention, So you have to determine that, um, 0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:35.839 the opportunity of the witness to view the criminal at 0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:39.240 the time of the crime. So I guess just literally 0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:42.440 physically were you able to see this happen right, or 0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:47.200 smell or here or lick the criminal? Um? The accuracy 0:45:47.239 --> 0:45:50.359 of the prior description of the criminal. That's a big 0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:53.600 one and that still holds up today. Yeah, like if 0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:55.839 if you told the cops initially that the guy had 0:45:55.880 --> 0:45:58.600 a mustache and you didn't have a mustache, you're going 0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:02.000 to hear about that from the defense during during the trial. 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:04.239 And we'll get into that later on. But that that, 0:46:04.400 --> 0:46:08.200 you know, that sort of virgin description, is that the 0:46:08.239 --> 0:46:12.000 right word? I love it is the one that really 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.600 should count sure, all right? And then what were the 0:46:14.680 --> 0:46:18.839 last two factors of the five um the level of 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:23.359 certainty demonstrated at the confrontation. And by confrontation they mean 0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:25.759 that that's the thing that you always see on like 0:46:25.800 --> 0:46:29.880 courtroom dramas where the witness they say, you know, do 0:46:30.080 --> 0:46:33.200 you see the perpetrator here today? And the witness says, yes, 0:46:33.360 --> 0:46:36.120 that man there, and then they say, let the records 0:46:36.160 --> 0:46:39.839 show that the the witnesses pointing at the defendant. Then 0:46:39.840 --> 0:46:45.000 then Perry Mason farts, right. That's the that's the particular 0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:48.360 one that's under attack today because they're saying, like, how 0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:52.719 certain does that witness seem when they confront the defendant 0:46:52.760 --> 0:46:55.799 in court? And then the last one is the time 0:46:55.840 --> 0:46:58.960 between the crime and the lineup, like, you know, was 0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:02.120 it What if the witness saw the crime and then 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:05.880 the cops don't catch the person for you know, three months? 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:10.000 Is that too long? Like does the witness become unusable 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:13.160 at that point? And those five those were the tests 0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:18.640 for constitutionality of an eye witnesses testimony. Yeah, I think 0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:23.440 those are five pretty decent factors to consider. Yeah, except 0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:27.799 for the one, the one about the certainty demonstrated confrontation. 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:30.719 And that's the big battle toy, because some people are like, look, man, 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:34.400 if human memory is that fallible, maybe we should just 0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:38.400 get rid of eyewitness testimony altogether. Right, But now that 0:47:38.480 --> 0:47:40.520 I think is the approach, Like, hey, why don't we 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:45.000 just treat it like anything that can be contaminated from uh, 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.279 from like physical evidence, Like, why don't we just treat 0:47:48.320 --> 0:47:51.160 this like physical evidence and say, you know it was 0:47:51.200 --> 0:47:55.160 that again, that virgin identification is the one that counts, 0:47:55.160 --> 0:47:58.960 and everything after that is tainted. Yeah, And so everybody 0:47:59.000 --> 0:48:01.319 on this there's a there's kind of a battle over 0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:09.399 just how much confidence relates to um accuracy and memory. Right, 0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:15.160 but both sides say everything after that first recall, whether 0:48:15.200 --> 0:48:18.080 it's telling the cop on the scene of the crime, 0:48:18.360 --> 0:48:21.960 what you saw or whether it's the lineup wherever it is. 0:48:22.000 --> 0:48:25.160 The first memory test is what it's called UM. The 0:48:25.200 --> 0:48:28.360 first time you do that, that is the only evidence 0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:31.680 that should be admissible, and everybody can talk about that evidence, 0:48:31.680 --> 0:48:33.960 and you can come to court and describe that evidence, 0:48:34.280 --> 0:48:37.040 but every other time you recall it after that, it 0:48:37.080 --> 0:48:40.880 should be considered contaminated evidence, just as much as you 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:46.600 would consider um, somebody dropping a blood on a blood 0:48:46.640 --> 0:48:51.719 sample as contaminated, or smearing a fingerprint is contaminated. Same thing. 0:48:52.160 --> 0:48:55.720 That's the big, the big trux. Everybody says, disregard everything 0:48:55.760 --> 0:49:00.279 after that. Where they disagree, though, Chuck, is just how 0:49:00.360 --> 0:49:06.719 much during that first UM, that first memory test, how 0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:12.120 much confidence is correlated to accuracy? And some people say 0:49:12.160 --> 0:49:15.440 it's very highly correlated. Like one guy said that in 0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:20.560 I think fifteen different experiments, they found that the accuracy 0:49:20.760 --> 0:49:28.520 was accurate. Um confidence indicated in accuracy. And other people 0:49:28.560 --> 0:49:31.480 are like, that's flim flam. Don't listen to that guy. 0:49:31.520 --> 0:49:33.360 But that's the battle that's going on right now. But 0:49:33.400 --> 0:49:37.680 everybody agrees the whole courtroom, that's the man right there 0:49:37.840 --> 0:49:40.960 that that shouldn't hold any water whatsoever. The problem is 0:49:41.040 --> 0:49:43.040 that holds the most water, because that's what's done in 0:49:43.080 --> 0:49:45.839 front of a jury. These are human beings. You know, 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:51.400 someone might carry that kind of confidence, uh in every 0:49:51.440 --> 0:49:55.279 area of their life, whereas someone else might be very 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:58.160 unsure about everything in their life, and that wouldn't be 0:49:58.200 --> 0:50:00.399 a time for them to be like, you know, someone 0:50:00.400 --> 0:50:02.879 who's not very confident, it's probably gonna have a hard 0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:07.000 time being super confident about something this important, sure, you know, 0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:10.680 but you also could imagine that that person would maybe 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:14.040 be more easily coached than than somebody who does have 0:50:14.080 --> 0:50:17.600 a lot of self confidence. Yeah, and that the phrase 0:50:18.680 --> 0:50:22.000 this is that's what it says. The T shirts say, 0:50:22.400 --> 0:50:24.680 coach him up. So you want to go over any 0:50:24.719 --> 0:50:27.239 of these other ones, I guess we can. I mean, 0:50:27.280 --> 0:50:31.319 this is all sort of innocence projects stuff. Um, I mean, 0:50:31.320 --> 0:50:33.759 there's certainly been plenty of examples over the years. I 0:50:33.800 --> 0:50:37.640 think of the three and well, how many you said, 0:50:37.640 --> 0:50:41.319 there's three fifty two? Now three that I saw three 0:50:41.360 --> 0:50:44.400 sixty five convictions at this time. Let's just say it 0:50:44.440 --> 0:50:48.360 was three forty nine that they had overturned. Seventy of 0:50:48.400 --> 0:50:51.840 them were based on the testimony of an eyewitness and 0:50:51.920 --> 0:50:56.239 this is just death row, like forget muggings. Yeah, the 0:50:58.040 --> 0:50:59.759 I don't know if it's all just death row or not, 0:50:59.840 --> 0:51:02.960 but that's it's some of these two were not just 0:51:03.200 --> 0:51:07.360 single witnesses, multiple eyewitnesses, which if there's one thing that 0:51:07.440 --> 0:51:12.360 basically says there was a copper prosecutor who coached everybody 0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:15.480 to basically share the same story, that's a it's a 0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:20.680 overturned conviction with multiple eye witnesses that DNA evidence shows 0:51:20.719 --> 0:51:24.719 we're all incorrect. Yeah, this one right here was especially maddening. 0:51:25.120 --> 0:51:28.400 Jerome White in ninety nine was convicted of rape and 0:51:28.480 --> 0:51:32.759 robbery and he was exonerated twelve years later. But the 0:51:32.800 --> 0:51:35.080 real guy who did the crime was in the actual 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:40.440 same lineup where White was identified. So that one's especially 0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:43.759 tough bill to swallow. The one that gets me. Um, 0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:47.280 do you remember Troy Davis. Like back in two thousand 0:51:47.280 --> 0:51:51.200 and eleven, Georgia Um executed Troy Davis for the murder 0:51:51.239 --> 0:51:57.040 of a cop, Mark McPhail um, Right, yeah, Don in Savannah, 0:51:57.160 --> 0:52:02.800 and there was no physical evidence and no weapon, nothing 0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:06.440 tied Troy Davis to the crime except for nine eye witnesses, 0:52:07.000 --> 0:52:12.080 seven of which recanted their testimony, and um, there was 0:52:12.120 --> 0:52:13.759 a big deal because a lot of people are like, 0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:16.480 it looks like Georgia's going to execute an innocent man. 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:19.280 We need to get this commuted to a life sentence 0:52:19.320 --> 0:52:21.560 so we can try to figure this out. And there 0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:24.080 was a petition that went around I remember signing it. 0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:28.080 There was six sixty thousand signatures on this petition, and 0:52:28.120 --> 0:52:31.440 it still didn't get his sentence commuted, and Georgia executed 0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:35.440 what was almost certainly an innocent man for the murder 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:38.319 of Mark McPhail. Yeah, that was tough, which also means 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:43.080 that the murderer of Mark McPhail is still out there somewhere. Yeah. 0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:46.279 I think that's not mentioned enough in these cases. It's 0:52:46.320 --> 0:52:50.040 like it's obviously we should think about the victim, then 0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:53.520 the second victim, which is a person falsely accused, and 0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:57.600 then there's also a murderer out there. Yep. Maybe, Yeah, 0:52:57.719 --> 0:52:59.799 that was a That's another episode I want to do, 0:52:59.880 --> 0:53:04.359 is is you know times when the the um when 0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:09.400 almost certainly innocent people were executed. Okay, there'll be a 0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:12.319 fun one. That's a good title for the You gotta 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:15.839 put the m in there too. Yeah. Uh, well, that's 0:53:15.880 --> 0:53:18.400 it for eyewitness testimony unless you have something else. I 0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:20.759 got nothing else. Well, Chuck says nothing else. I got 0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:23.440 nothing else. So that means everybody, it's time for a 0:53:23.560 --> 0:53:29.840 listener mail. This is a very sweet email. Hey guys. 0:53:29.840 --> 0:53:32.400 On Father's Day in two thousand fifteen, our son Aaron 0:53:32.480 --> 0:53:35.279 died from cancer at the age of forty. One of 0:53:35.280 --> 0:53:38.080 his last wishes was for his beloved Australian shepherd dog 0:53:38.640 --> 0:53:40.840 Scully to live on a family farm with some wonderful 0:53:40.880 --> 0:53:44.120 friends he knew from Pennsylvania, U scullies with was with 0:53:44.239 --> 0:53:46.640 us in southern California at the time, so I began 0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:48.560 looking at options to send her back, and it became 0:53:48.600 --> 0:53:51.799 obvious at driving Scully to Gettysburg was the only true 0:53:51.800 --> 0:53:54.640 way to say goodbye and carry out Aaron's wish. I 0:53:54.640 --> 0:53:56.520 announced that the family I was taking her back, and 0:53:56.640 --> 0:53:58.759 our daughter, who would come home to be by a 0:53:58.840 --> 0:54:01.879 side while he was in auspice, quickly said she wanted 0:54:01.880 --> 0:54:04.440 to come with me. Without any further delay, the three 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:07.040 of us took off across the country. After a few 0:54:07.040 --> 0:54:10.080 hours of listening to the radio, our daughter Brandy said, 0:54:10.200 --> 0:54:12.759 do you want to listen to some podcasts? Sure, was 0:54:12.800 --> 0:54:15.680 my response. What's a podcast? So she plugged in her 0:54:15.680 --> 0:54:17.560 phone and started an episode of Stuff You Should Know, 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:19.840 And from that moment on, for the next four days, 0:54:19.920 --> 0:54:22.480 we listened to an endless stream of you guys. I 0:54:22.520 --> 0:54:24.200 want to thank you for helping us cope with the 0:54:24.239 --> 0:54:27.960 pain and heartache we were dealing with your banter and fun. 0:54:28.360 --> 0:54:30.760 We're very therapeutic as my daughter and I traveled across 0:54:30.800 --> 0:54:34.239 country with our thoughts and Scully. Being with my daughter 0:54:34.280 --> 0:54:36.040 and sharing all this time together with you by your 0:54:36.080 --> 0:54:39.080 sides was one of the best experiences of my life. 0:54:39.120 --> 0:54:42.520 Given the circumstances, I now listen to you guys often, 0:54:42.560 --> 0:54:46.760 and my daughter even bought me a Jerry quote blank 0:54:47.400 --> 0:54:51.600 T shirt as a reminder of our time together. And 0:54:51.680 --> 0:54:55.520 that is from Doug and Brandy Bell. Thanks a lot, Doug, 0:54:55.600 --> 0:54:57.400 and thanks a lot, Brandy. I like the cut of 0:54:57.440 --> 0:55:01.440 your jib for suggesting stuff you should Know. Yeah, terrible circumstance, 0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:05.080 but I'm glad Scully's on that farm in Pennsylvania. Thanks Doug, 0:55:05.360 --> 0:55:08.319 Thank you, Brandy and uh On behalf of all of 0:55:08.400 --> 0:55:12.239 us our deepest condolences. We're glad that we could have 0:55:12.360 --> 0:55:14.839 some small part in making it a little better for 0:55:14.920 --> 0:55:18.560 you absolutely If you want to get in touch with us, 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:21.840 like Doug did Um, you can go onto stuff you 0:55:21.840 --> 0:55:23.960 Should Know dot com and check out our social links. 0:55:24.400 --> 0:55:28.480 You can also send us an email to stuff podcast 0:55:28.480 --> 0:55:33.920 i heeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is 0:55:33.920 --> 0:55:36.520 a production of iHeart Radios. How stuff works. For more 0:55:36.560 --> 0:55:39.040 podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app. 0:55:39.120 --> 0:55:41.720 Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.