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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's Josh and Chuck and we're coming to

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Speaker 1: see you guys, some of you some cities. Just listen up.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because you know, we just did Chicago and

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Speaker 1: Toronto and it went great, and I think our topic

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Speaker 1: of went really well. Sure did. Everyone loved hearing about

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Speaker 1: That's right. So if you're in Boston, he can come

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Speaker 1: see us in August twenty nine at the Wilbur Portland, Maine, Maine,

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Speaker 1: at the State Theater on August thirty. I can't wait.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna Labor Day weekend. I'm gonna stay the whole weekend.

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Speaker 1: I'll be all over Maine. That's great, man. Where else

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Speaker 1: We're gonna be in Orlando on October nine, and then

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Speaker 1: on October t we're going to be in New Orleans, Man.

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Speaker 1: And then later on that month we're doing a three

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Speaker 1: night stand at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn. That's right. Is

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Speaker 1: sold out. You can still get tickets for the and

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Speaker 1: we will see you then. Check it out at s

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Speaker 1: y s K live dot com. Welcome to Stuff you

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Speaker 1: should Know, a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's

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Speaker 1: Charles W Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there, and

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Speaker 1: this is stuff you should know, the Continuing Courtroom Drama edition. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this one. I think if you take our podcast on

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Speaker 1: memory and our podcasts on police lineups and they made love, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: then they would have this baby. I just came a

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Speaker 1: little aroused. Chuck can tell. Yeah, this is uh. I

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Speaker 1: guess two thousand eleven was the Memory one, so that's

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Speaker 1: been a while. Yeah. Also you could sprinkle in a

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Speaker 1: little photographic memory. Maybe that one was just watching. Sure, Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know. Hey, Jerry, how are you? That's right? Good,

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Speaker 1: good answer. So, Chuck, Yes, have you ever been wrongfully

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Speaker 1: convicted of a crime based on eyewitness testimony? Not convicted,

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Speaker 1: but you have been indicted on it a crime? Not indicted.

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Speaker 1: You have been accused of a crime. I've been accused

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Speaker 1: of crimes. Really, I think you should dish about that.

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Speaker 1: You know it, crimes against humanity. Okay, I'm gonna take

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Speaker 1: all that as a no, you never have That's great, um.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out there are plenty of people hundreds

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Speaker 1: so far in the US alone, who have been found

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Speaker 1: to have been wrongfully convicted of crimes. Big crimes, I

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Speaker 1: mean crimes that have put them on death row, um

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Speaker 1: based on eyewitness testimony. And in the last few decades

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Speaker 1: it's become really apparent that eyewitness testimony is is really

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Speaker 1: not great. I mean we've known it for a long time,

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Speaker 1: but thanks to DNA evidence coming along, we can now

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Speaker 1: go back and say, um, yeah, this is this person

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Speaker 1: was innocent. Actually, yeah, you want to hear something, A

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Speaker 1: little story. So the UH we worked with a locations person,

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Speaker 1: actually two people, it's a couple on some of the

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Speaker 1: stuff you should know stuff back in the day. I

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Speaker 1: think some of the shorts and UH in locations and

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say their names or anything to protect them,

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Speaker 1: but they were riding their bikes and we're hit and

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Speaker 1: run last week and um, she's fine now, but she

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Speaker 1: was in the hospital. Was it was not great? And

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Speaker 1: they have I've been following this on social media. They

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Speaker 1: have video from you know, like everyone has cameras now,

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Speaker 1: businesses and homes and stuff. They have video of the incident.

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Speaker 1: They have the the car's license plate as clear as day,

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Speaker 1: the car as clear as day. The police have all

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and the police are like, nothing we can

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Speaker 1: do about it unless you have an eye witness that

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Speaker 1: can like say who the driver was? What the same

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Speaker 1: thing that happened to me in l A when you

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Speaker 1: know I told that story back, Uh in one of

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Speaker 1: our shows when I got hit and run and I

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Speaker 1: couldn't identify this young woman in a in a lineup card.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they're like, sorry, she said she didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's all you gotta do is they didn't

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Speaker 1: do it, But the same thing is happening to them.

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Speaker 1: They have You wouldn't believe the clarity of the videos

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Speaker 1: that show this car right hitting them and leaving and uh,

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Speaker 1: they're like, nothing we can do about it. Man, that

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Speaker 1: is crazy. So that's like a pretty good example of

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Speaker 1: the law being slow to catch up to the current

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Speaker 1: state of I guess the world basically. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: they're they're not They're working the case and they're trying

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Speaker 1: to find out who did it, but they can't simply

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Speaker 1: go to the person's house who owns that car and

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Speaker 1: like arrest somebody. I guess in a way though that

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Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds stupid and and dumb, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time it is kind of reassuring, especially with

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Speaker 1: the rise of deep fakes, which we've talked to out too.

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Speaker 1: You can't just fabricate a video, especially convincing one, and

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Speaker 1: be like, go arrest this person, I guess. So. My

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Speaker 1: thought though, is like, go bring in the person who

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Speaker 1: owns the car and you will probably very likely find

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Speaker 1: out who was driving it. Sure if it wasn't them, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: especially if you are are really generous with the rubber hose,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, and the d louson I've

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Speaker 1: met more of the beating with the rubber hose. No,

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Speaker 1: I know what you mean. Okay, you took it a

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Speaker 1: different direction. A Rambo in First Blood? What did they

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Speaker 1: de loust Rambo? Yeah, they d loused him and then

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Speaker 1: hit him with the fire hose. Okay, huh. But all

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Speaker 1: this to say, I witness testimony like is what's needed

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Speaker 1: in many cases to prove guilt. But it's so unreliable, right,

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Speaker 1: it's like a joke almost. It's well, it's the gold

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Speaker 1: standard in the American justice system, and I would suspect

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Speaker 1: just about every justice system that if somebody comes into

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Speaker 1: a court and points at them, at the suspect or

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Speaker 1: the defendant and says, I saw them kill that person.

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Speaker 1: I saw them hit that couple with their car and

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Speaker 1: drive off. I saw them. Other people who make up

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Speaker 1: juries will be like, Wow, how are you gonna argue

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Speaker 1: with that? You can't this person swearing under oath that

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Speaker 1: they saw them do it. Um, they don't strike me

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Speaker 1: as a liar. They don't seem to have anything to

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Speaker 1: gain from lying about this. So I'm gonna go ahead

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Speaker 1: and believe this this person and convict. But like we were,

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Speaker 1: we've kind of been toying with a little bit and saying,

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Speaker 1: like I witness testimony isn't great. Um, you don't have

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Speaker 1: to have some sort of vested interest in sending someone

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Speaker 1: to prison. You don't have to be outright lying to

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Speaker 1: basically send someone to jail who's actually innocent based done

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Speaker 1: your own testimony. And while you're doing this, while you're

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Speaker 1: testifying a court, you might actually fully believe what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: even though what you're saying is fabricated and actually you

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Speaker 1: don't really recognize the person that you're saying you saw

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Speaker 1: commit this crime. Yeah, and a jury is way more

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Speaker 1: likely to uh convict if you're like super super sure

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Speaker 1: and you're like, oh no, that was the person. I

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Speaker 1: am positive. But as we will learn as we impact

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Speaker 1: this topic, um, that that confidence in court is not

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Speaker 1: there from the beginning necessarily. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But

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Speaker 1: if you think that confidence sells it, if you have

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Speaker 1: a cocky witness, they'll just kill the defendant on the spot.

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Speaker 1: So like, are you one sure? And they go what

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Speaker 1: did I just say? Exactly? That kind of witness will

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Speaker 1: send you to the the electric chair or the lethal

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Speaker 1: injection needle everyday the week. They're called do I stutter witnesses?

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Speaker 1: Oh all right, let's get into this. We've been dancing

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Speaker 1: around it quite a bit. It's been a beautiful dance,

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Speaker 1: but let's get into it. Okay, Yeah, I guess this

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine paper was kind of says it all. Uh, physiologist,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. A psychologist an attorney named Robert Redmount said

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Speaker 1: it has been suggested that the presumption is probably warranted

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Speaker 1: to the effect that a random person give an accurate,

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Speaker 1: original perception well in the ordinary course of events, reflect

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Speaker 1: a memory competent to serve most of the purposes for

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Speaker 1: which it is demanded. Which that's sort of a long

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Speaker 1: way of saying memory is good enough, right. Yeah. Basically

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Speaker 1: that that the average person walking around can serve as

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Speaker 1: a reliable eye witness to a crime basically, And what

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Speaker 1: what this nineteen fifty nine brief is basically saying is

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Speaker 1: like this is this is the state of affairs in

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Speaker 1: the American justice them that if you say you saw something,

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Speaker 1: and you say you're pretty sure that what you saw,

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, or what you think you saw is accurate,

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Speaker 1: the court system can rely on you enough to convict somebody. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but almost to the point where it's like, can we

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Speaker 1: all just get on the same page here and agree

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Speaker 1: that we'll just believe someone when they say they're they're

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Speaker 1: really sure. Yeah, I mean it's smacks of that too,

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Speaker 1: for sure. It definitely does the like I guess the

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Speaker 1: guy was just trying to shore up any opposition to it,

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Speaker 1: and I mean that was um but long before that,

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Speaker 1: there were chinks in the armor of eyewitness testimony and

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Speaker 1: just how reliable it was. Um So, I mean people

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Speaker 1: have been using eyewitness testimony for basically ever. It's probably

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Speaker 1: the oldest type of testimony or that there is in

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Speaker 1: any kind of court or proceedings or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: But starting in the early twentieth century, it as psychology

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Speaker 1: kind of developed One of the first things that psychology

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Speaker 1: took on was the reliability of memory and eye witness testimony,

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Speaker 1: and one of the first people to take it on

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Speaker 1: was a psychologist named Hugo Munsterberg. I got the um

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Speaker 1: lau correct. Thanks man. He wrote a book called On

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Speaker 1: the Witness stand In and he was he's known still

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Speaker 1: today as the father of applied psychology. He was a

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Speaker 1: psychologist who said, hey, he was how psychology can help

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Speaker 1: you in your day to day life, especially for day

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Speaker 1: to day life, is that you're being convicted of a

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Speaker 1: crime based on eyewitness testimony and um. He basically showed

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Speaker 1: through a lot of experiments and exercises when he was

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Speaker 1: a lecturer at Harvard that memory was definitely not um Essentially,

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Speaker 1: just like a film strip or a videotape or for

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Speaker 1: today's kids in MP four file, you know that that

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Speaker 1: we we don't just sit there and record the events

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Speaker 1: going on around us in the world at all times

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Speaker 1: and can go back and replay those events in our

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Speaker 1: lives and it's an accurate rendering of what we experience.

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Speaker 1: That's just not the case. Well, yeah, and this is

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Speaker 1: uh with with students where they knew that they were

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Speaker 1: doing memory tests and quizzes, and they knew that they

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Speaker 1: were there to do that and had to focus on

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Speaker 1: this stuff and uh, you really need to concentrate and

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Speaker 1: remember what I'm about to show you, maybe have a

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Speaker 1: sandwich beforehand. Yeah, And they were still inaccurate and really

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Speaker 1: demonstrated what we all now know is the fact that

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Speaker 1: human memory is very fallible. Like, forget about just happening

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Speaker 1: down the street. You got a million things on your mind.

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Speaker 1: You're right in the middle of texting someone and you

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Speaker 1: look up and you see a crime happen like that

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Speaker 1: has Uh. After reading this stuff, it seems like very

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Speaker 1: little probability of you getting that stuff right right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I saw somewhere that smartphones in general are Um, they're

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Speaker 1: good that you know, they can help capture video of

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Speaker 1: a crime or a photo of a crime. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, they really make a lot of witnesses

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Speaker 1: unreliable because everyone is so distracted by their smartphones that

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Speaker 1: they don't really see what's going on or don't you know,

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Speaker 1: they might have otherwise been a really good witness, but

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Speaker 1: they were kind of glued to their phone at the time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can that's true without even uh, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's true about everything when it comes to smartphones.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't paying attention. I was looking at the phone

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Speaker 1: or the people that. You know, if I can complain

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Speaker 1: about concerts again for a moment, go ahead, man. The

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Speaker 1: people that videotape entire songs are usually looking at it

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Speaker 1: through their phone, and that's the worst possible way to

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Speaker 1: experience alive musical moment. It really is, especially when you

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Speaker 1: consider that they will probably never go back and watch

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Speaker 1: that video. You know, justin my buddy, uh, my tall

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Speaker 1: British friend, he he yells from behind them so you

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Speaker 1: can hear it on the video. You're never gonna watch

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Speaker 1: it as loud as he can, which is great. He's

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Speaker 1: probably right like eight percent of the time, I would say,

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Speaker 1: But I would like to see the next day where

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Speaker 1: some of those people watch it and they hear justin

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Speaker 1: in the background, Sam, You're never going to watch it.

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Speaker 1: They're probably like, what is that guy talking about? Or

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Speaker 1: he's like the person watching is like, I showed that

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Speaker 1: guy right, so um Hugo Munsterberg. He wrote this thing

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Speaker 1: on the witness stand basically saying we should not just

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Speaker 1: you know, take everyone's word for it. When an eyewitness

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Speaker 1: comes forward in a criminal proceeding like there's problems with memory,

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Speaker 1: and I've just demonstrated it. But his writings were largely

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Speaker 1: overlooked because during World War One he was from Germany,

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Speaker 1: but he became a German American. Um he wandered around

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Speaker 1: vocally supporting Germany during the First World War, which is

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Speaker 1: not something you want to do back then. It's not

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Speaker 1: a good way to get your book out there. No,

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Speaker 1: so he was he was basically just ignored for many,

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Speaker 1: many years, even though he was one of the first

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Speaker 1: psychologists to take up this mantle. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: about the mid seventies that psychology again took this up.

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Speaker 1: And there were two psychologists in particular, a guy named

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Speaker 1: Robert buck Out who basically was was the first to

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Speaker 1: be like memory is not a videotape is one way

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Speaker 1: to put his research. And then another um psychologists a

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Speaker 1: very famous psychologist named Elizabeth Loftus in the later seventies

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Speaker 1: a few years after buck Out, Um was really the

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Speaker 1: one whose work kind of captured the popular imagination and

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Speaker 1: made us all realize that we're just total frauds when

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Speaker 1: we're recalling a memory. Well, yeah, and with the advent

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Speaker 1: of DNA evidence, and when you know, all it took

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Speaker 1: was a building up of cases being overturned because of

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Speaker 1: DNA evidence where eyewitness testimony that was positive was directly overturned.

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Speaker 1: You get enough of those mounting up, and then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, the United States has a p problem

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Speaker 1: on their hands and they have to say, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: we really need to look into this whole thing about

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Speaker 1: memory and I witness testimony not being super reliable. Right,

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Speaker 1: let's take the next thirty years to mull it over. Basically, sure, so, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was the the Innocence Project in particular. There have

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Speaker 1: been people working to exonerate people based on faulty evidence,

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Speaker 1: which really got a punch in the arm or shot

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Speaker 1: in the arm after DNA evidence, like you were saying,

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Speaker 1: But the Innocence Project in particular, um was started in

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Speaker 1: and they've got like I think three hundred and sixty

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Speaker 1: five exonerations under their belt, one for each day of

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Speaker 1: the year, exactly, do it on the on the daily.

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Speaker 1: We did a we did a show on that too.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you remembering in we talked to Paula is

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Speaker 1: On That's right, So I can tell by that sigh,

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Speaker 1: I think you're ready for a message break, you want

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Speaker 1: to take one. Yeah, I'm just gonna google some some

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Speaker 1: Polosan trying to remember who she was. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: right after this. Alright, So, Chuck, we've been talking a

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Speaker 1: lot of smack about the human memory. Let's back it

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Speaker 1: up with some some facts and figures and stuffy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there have been, like you said, the past

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Speaker 1: thirty years is when the United States started doing I

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Speaker 1: just said United He started doing more and more studies

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Speaker 1: on on the human memory and how accurate it is,

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Speaker 1: and it is really exposed the flaws and biases, um,

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Speaker 1: and it's really not even I mean, it is memory,

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Speaker 1: but it's also perception and what we perceive is going on,

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Speaker 1: and there are a lot of like we don't all

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Speaker 1: agree on what perception even means, and there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of different theories about how visual perception works. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's like a two fold issue with memory. There's the

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Speaker 1: formation of memory and then there's the recall. Right, so

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Speaker 1: with the formation of memory, it's like, yeah, if you

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Speaker 1: can't agree on what constitutes reality, you know, it makes

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Speaker 1: it really tough to perceive reality and like a standard, uniform,

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Speaker 1: objective way. But you can form a wrong memory that's

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Speaker 1: like that should stop everyone cold in their tracks, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And there's the the this is there's basically two ways

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Speaker 1: of looking at um at at how we perceive reality.

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Speaker 1: And it is either reality exists in some way that

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Speaker 1: we don't perceive and we kind of paint this picture

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Speaker 1: that we think of as reality but that's not actually

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Speaker 1: really reality, or reality is reality but we just kind

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Speaker 1: of um perceive it piecemeal um in in order to

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Speaker 1: save energy, save time, save storage space, whatever. But the

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Speaker 1: upshot of both of these, and I really want to

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Speaker 1: do in an entire episode on the nature of reality someday, okay,

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Speaker 1: but the upshot of these theories on what reality isn't

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Speaker 1: how we perceive them is that we basically take what

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Speaker 1: we need from the environment, from whatever scene we're observing, whatever,

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Speaker 1: and then we kind of fill in the blanks to

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Speaker 1: create this complete picture. And in doing so, if if

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Speaker 1: we're just kind of walking through a meadow or something

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Speaker 1: like that, enjoying the day, that doesn't really matter, right.

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Speaker 1: We can kind of recall what that butterfly that flew

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Speaker 1: by looked like, what its colors were, what the trees

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Speaker 1: looked like, but if we really dig in, did we

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Speaker 1: actually look at the trees that kind of provided the

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Speaker 1: backdrop of the scene or is it just kind of,

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Speaker 1: uh a conception of what trees in general look like

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Speaker 1: in that situation. Um, that our minds filled in. And

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Speaker 1: when people started like thinking about this stuff, not just psychologist,

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Speaker 1: but neurologists, philosophers, all these a lot of different people

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out, you know, how we go through

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Speaker 1: the life and reality and perceive the world. Um, it

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Speaker 1: became really apparent that we do a lot of shorthand

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Speaker 1: construction as we're kind of moving through life, and when

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Speaker 1: we're walking through a meadow, not that important. When we're

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Speaker 1: convicting a person of um, robbery and murder, then it

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Speaker 1: does become important. And it is an issue that we

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Speaker 1: just kind of fill in the blanks to create a

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Speaker 1: whole picture that didn't necessarily happen. Yeah. That I don't

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Speaker 1: know if anyone listening has ever seen the hollow mask illusion. Um.

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Speaker 1: That has to do with gestalt theory basically that our

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Speaker 1: perceptions are based on perceptual hypotheses. So like that's us

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Speaker 1: making these educated guests educated. Yeah, educated guests is about Um,

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Speaker 1: the sensory information that our eyeballs in our ear holes.

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Speaker 1: And we should point out that I witness testimony can

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Speaker 1: mean audio like thing you overheard as well. UM, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how well other senses of performed in court.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about that, like, I guess, you know,

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Speaker 1: did you smell a chemical smell or something like that? That

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Speaker 1: That would be one, but I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what else you would like. Did you did you feel

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Speaker 1: the murderer's touch taste? I don't know, did you lick

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Speaker 1: the guy who was robbing the gas station? But if

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Speaker 1: you look at the the great example of gestalt theory

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Speaker 1: and that UM perceptual hypotheses is the hollow mass. So

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Speaker 1: if you go online, there's one UM very famous one

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Speaker 1: of Albert Einstein, and it's basically, someone will show you,

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Speaker 1: UM what looks like UM, a mask of Albert Einstein's face,

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Speaker 1: and then they start to turn it around, and about

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Speaker 1: halfway through you realize that you were looking at the

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Speaker 1: inside of that mask and not the outside of that mask.

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Speaker 1: And it's painted, of course, but it's still uh concave,

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Speaker 1: so it shouldn't look convex, but it yet it does.

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Speaker 1: And it's a mine trick and it's really freaky. It is,

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Speaker 1: but it also just kind of goes to show that

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Speaker 1: our brains leap to conclusions basically. Yeah. Absolutely. Another thing

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Speaker 1: is that the whole Darwinnian approach is basically, if you're

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Speaker 1: in a in a dangerous situation, um, your brain is

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Speaker 1: going to quickly decide what's most important to pay attention

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Speaker 1: to in that scene. UM, And that that will of

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Speaker 1: course skew reality depending on what's going on. Plus also

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Speaker 1: so so so that's point one. Our brains fill in

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Speaker 1: the blanks probably more than we realize to create our

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Speaker 1: idea of reality and memory. Right, yes, and even when

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Speaker 1: we're actually actively taking in information the them just how good,

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Speaker 1: say like our eyesight is or our hearing is or exactly.

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Speaker 1: And that's one thing that that defense attorneys, in particular

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Speaker 1: will Um will try to attack is things like that,

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Speaker 1: like you know, do you wear glasses or contacts? Have

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Speaker 1: you ever had lay sick? Was it raining out? Was

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Speaker 1: at nighttime? You know how far away were you? Street

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Speaker 1: light was under repair? We have records exactly in the

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Speaker 1: whole courtroom goes, yeah, it's the big moment, and Perry

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Speaker 1: Mason shoots a duck. Perry Mason farts in court. I

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Speaker 1: didn't say that. I said he shoots a duck, all right.

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Speaker 1: It was his his thing at least at first and

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Speaker 1: the early episodes, and then the producers were like, this

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Speaker 1: didn't go a name where we're gonna drop this as

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Speaker 1: this thing your honor? I object, right, that's right. That

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Speaker 1: was from episode three. Oh boy. Um, so they're there

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Speaker 1: has to be a standard here though, Um when it

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Speaker 1: comes to court and like how well people see? I

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Speaker 1: mean it can't. I mean it is case by case

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Speaker 1: and that every case is its own unique thing in court,

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Speaker 1: but there has to be some sort of standard as

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Speaker 1: far as like how well does somebody with vision see?

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Speaker 1: For instance, And there's a guy named Jeffrey Loftus, a

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Speaker 1: researcher from UH. I believe is that you dub dub,

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Speaker 1: and he kind of developed this formula on vision over distance,

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Speaker 1: which basically says, at ten feet you might not be

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Speaker 1: able to see eyelashes on a person's face. It's two

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Speaker 1: hundred feet you may not be able to see eyes,

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Speaker 1: and at five feet you could see a person's head,

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Speaker 1: but it's just a big blur. So like this could

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Speaker 1: be uh, and is this the standard that they use

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Speaker 1: in court. I think he's trying to to make it

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Speaker 1: a standard, and I'm sure he gets called on as

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Speaker 1: a professional witness and says all this, But I don't

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Speaker 1: believe it's it's an actual um, like it's been judged

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Speaker 1: to be like the standards, like they don't without a

395
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Speaker 1: chart in court. No, but I think if you really

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Speaker 1: wanted to get the point across, you could do worse

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Speaker 1: than hiring Jeoffrey Loftus. Yeah, and I imagine don't they

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Speaker 1: also do uh did they test these people? Um? I

399
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Speaker 1: don't know. I think if you have a really good

400
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Speaker 1: defense attorney, you could probably ask that a witness, if

401
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Speaker 1: not go to an optometrist, at least have their um,

402
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Speaker 1: their optometrist records subpoenaed. Or in the dramatic TV or

403
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Speaker 1: film version, you see the your honor, if I may

404
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Speaker 1: step to the rear of the courtroom, and you do

405
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Speaker 1: that move and then you know, you hold up two

406
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Speaker 1: fingers and you say how many fingers am I holding up?

407
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Speaker 1: And then what in the Mr Brady cross is a

408
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Speaker 1: briefcase and the guy with the nick brace on turns

409
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Speaker 1: his head. What a chump that guy was? It was

410
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Speaker 1: not committed, No, that's so great that you said that,

411
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Speaker 1: because it was between that or a Perry Mason joke

412
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Speaker 1: for me if I was going to swoop in. Okay,

413
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Speaker 1: I don't know much Perry Mason. Did he fart in court? No,

414
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Speaker 1: I just totally made that up. I don't know anything

415
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Speaker 1: about him either. It is no, it was Raymond Burr.

416
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Speaker 1: He was ironsides, he was both buddy. But I mean,

417
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Speaker 1: if there was ever somebody that looked like he'd fart

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Speaker 1: in court, it's Raymond Burr. You know, even like put together,

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Speaker 1: um clean shaven Raymond Burr from Perry Mason. Yeah, he

420
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Speaker 1: does look Cassie, doesn't he a little bit? So Okay,

421
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: moving on, Chuck. There's also the problem um that researchers

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Speaker 1: have found that we humans have a finite amount of attention, right,

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Speaker 1: and if there's a bunch of stuff going on at once,

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Speaker 1: or we have to pay attention to multiple things in

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Speaker 1: quick succession, it's been found that there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of um problems with that that that we don't really

427
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: do real well with pace stuff coming at us, especially

428
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: when we're stressed out or in a high stress situation. Yeah,

429
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: it's like this stuff is really neat there's something called

430
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: attentional blink, um, not intentional attentional And that's when, um, like,

431
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: when you're just looking around at things anywhere you are,

432
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: it feels like one big fluid thing where you're taking

433
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: in everything, but that's not really happening. When you you know,

434
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: if I'm looking at this coffee cup and then I

435
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: look up at your face, there's something called attentional blink,

436
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: which is a little blip less than a second where

437
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: there is in um, I guess, just an interruption and input. Yeah,

438
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: and your attention. Yeah, you know, you're you're shifting from

439
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: one thing to the other, and it's not a fluid motion.

440
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a hiccup. But you don't notice this, No,

441
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: you don't. It all blends seamlessly because your brain is

442
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: filling in these little gaps. But during that period, if

443
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: something really vital happened, and that'say half of a second span,

444
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: you might not notice it. And because we've already seen

445
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: that our brains tend to fill in information to create

446
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: a smooth picture of reality. That could be problematic for

447
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: the person who you're saying you saw do something or

448
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: didn't see the other. Thing about attentional blink too, is

449
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: that it really kind of points out that if, um,

450
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: if we are really focused on one thing, we might

451
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: miss another, that our attention is is very selective. Basically, Yeah,

452
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: um yeah, you know, if you're like into your smartphone,

453
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: you're not paying attention to stuff going on around you. Um,

454
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: even if like you're driving, like if you're driven up

455
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 1: next to somebody and they're driving like thirty miles an

456
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: hour under the speed limit, which supposedly is safe, but

457
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: you know, they're on their phone and you honk at

458
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: them and like flip them off and like throw a

459
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: rock at their windshield that kind of thing, and they

460
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: don't even look up. They don't there, No, they have

461
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: no idea. That's kind of the same thing. But there's

462
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: this really amazing video that I hadn't heard of. But

463
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: these two magicians I know, Jared and John who are

464
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: I hope are working on a podcast um about this

465
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Um, they pointed it out. Did you

466
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: go see that video that was linked in this article,

467
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: which one the one that was created by Daniel Simmons

468
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: and Christopher shabrists or Chebris where it's the ball passing video. Okay,

469
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: so I don't want to give anything else out about

470
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: it to everybody. Just go look up Daniel Simmons ball

471
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: passing video and prepared to be amazed. But it really

472
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: drives home like what the them, Just how focused we

473
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: can become at the expense of other information. That's right, Um,

474
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: what else? Chuck? Uh? Well, there's something called the psychological

475
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: refractory period with the prp UM and that's when if

476
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: two things, if two cognitive tasks, and this can include

477
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: you know, you seeing things, uh, if they arrive really

478
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: closely together, there's a bit of a lag time between

479
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: when we process these two things, that first thing and

480
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: then that second thing. So if these things are coming

481
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: in quick succession, or they are very intense, or there

482
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: are a lot of different stimuli, there is a little bottleneck,

483
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: a processing bottle neck that can occur, and especially in

484
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: a in a like a a scary experience like if

485
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: someone sticks a gun in your face or something. The

486
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: you know, the big example that you always hear is

487
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: like what was the weapon? Was it a gun or

488
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: a knife? And it's been kind of shown time again.

489
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: If you're if you are, if someone comes and sticks

490
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: a gun in your face, you're going to have your

491
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: attention on the gun and more so than the face.

492
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: M So you might not be able to recall what

493
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: your perpetrator look like. Uh. You may have more information

494
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: about the gun, which is a little helpful, but not

495
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: as much as their face. Yeah. You know, I think

496
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: I told you before that time that Umi got mugged. Um,

497
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: she was not focused on the gun and did not

498
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: know that the guy had had a gun on her

499
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: and her friends. Um, when she was asked if there

500
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: was a gun at the cops station, she's like, I

501
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: actually don't know, Like she didn't process the gun and

502
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: her friends were like, yeah, there was a gun. The

503
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: guy had a gun, Um, which is I hadn't realized.

504
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: Like I get that, you know, not processing something because

505
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: of a stressful situation, but it's it's funny, that's like

506
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: the opposite apparently of how it usually is. Yeah, and

507
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: I think you can sort of train yourself. I mean,

508
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: hopefully this kind of thing doesn't happen over and over again,

509
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: and like to Umi or anyone else, but like I've

510
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: sort of told myself, like, if anything ever happens, try

511
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: and keep your wits about you and taking as much

512
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: detail as you can and and like repeat it in

513
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: your brain over and over. That's just good advice for

514
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: like daily living. Sure, that's mindful in this, I think yeah,

515
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: I told you before. I think it was the police

516
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: lineups one that she was able to pick the guy

517
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: out in the lineup, So maybe she was focused on

518
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: the guy's face and was missing the gun rather than

519
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: the opposite exactly, she was that a finger in your pocket, right,

520
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: don't say the second part, So I'm not going to.

521
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna leave it up to the listeners, dirty

522
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: dirty listeners minds. So, um, there's also another one for

523
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: forming memories that has kind of confounded researchers for a while. Um,

524
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: and it's called the own race bias or cross race effect. Yeah.

525
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: We talked about this in police lineups, didn't we? I

526
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: feel like we did, But I think it's worth going

527
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: over one more time. So it basically is it says

528
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: that if you are a witness, and you witness a

529
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: crime that's that's carried out by somebody from another race

530
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: or ethnic group other than yours, you're going to have

531
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: a harder time recognizing that person, um than you will

532
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: would if they were a member of your own race

533
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: or ethnic group. And so the the it seems easy peasy, well,

534
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: that you're just a racist and every everybody of another

535
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: race looks alike to you. That's not the case. They

536
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: found that people who score UM low on questionnaires about

537
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: being prejudiced um also are subject to the cross race effect,

538
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: and that it's across the board for everybody of any race.

539
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: They're all equally subjected or they're equally um, what's the

540
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: word victims of it? I guess yeah, miss uh, it's

541
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: in there somewhere misidentified. Now, they're equally susceptible. Susceptible. We

542
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: got there, we got there, chuck. Yeah, that's true. Uh,

543
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: and that's really interesting, Like you could you could test

544
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: out as the least prejudice person on the planet and

545
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: still misidentify someone um from another race. Yeah. And they

546
00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: think that different races have different defining characteristics and that you,

547
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: as a child and probably well into adulthood, are kind

548
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: of trained to pick out the identifying characteristics of people

549
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: of your own race UM, which doesn't necessarily apply to

550
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: people of other races. And so people really are bad

551
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: at distinguishing different members of different races, not because they're

552
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: racist and everybody looks alike, but because they're looking for

553
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: the wrong cues distinguishing cues. Yeah, and you know, sometimes

554
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: people can look like other people. It's uh. In the

555
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: famous cases section, I'm gonna go ahead and pick one

556
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: out of there, very famous case of Ronald Cotton. Uh

557
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: In he was identified as a perpetrator of a rape

558
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison. And uh, I went back

559
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: and I looked at the person who eventually was found

560
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: out to be the the he was exonerated Cotton was,

561
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: but the real guy, Bobby Pool that saw side by

562
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: side images. These guys look a lot alike. They look

563
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: at a lot out of like, like their noses are different,

564
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: but if you block out their nose, they're the lower

565
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: half of their face and their eyes and forehead are

566
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: really really similar. And I think that's just a case

567
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: of really bad luck. It was really bad luck. It

568
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: ultimately pan out to be really good luck. But I mean,

569
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: the the victim, the eyewitness was the victim a woman

570
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: named um Jennifer Thompson. And during the rape she did

571
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: she took your advice and like, kept her wits about

572
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: her as much as possible and took the opportunity to

573
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: study the guy's face. But because Pool and Cotton looked

574
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: so much alike, Um, she there was, there was. It

575
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: was a case of mistaken identity of a witness who

576
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: actually is we'll see. Was kind of unsure at first,

577
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: but became more and more confident, which is a big problem. Um.

578
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: But when Cotton was exonerated, Um, Jennifer Thompson and Ronald

579
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: Cotton went on to write a book about the whole

580
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: thing together and their friends. They got to be friends

581
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: because she experienced a tremendous amount of guilt for identifying

582
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: this man and him serving time for something he didn't do.

583
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: And yeah, they wrote a book together, which is now.

584
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, that's tell me that's going

585
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: to be a movie soon. And as of like a

586
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 1: couple of months ago, it was. It was optioned O

587
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 1: your film. Nice. It's called the books called Picking Cotton.

588
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: Oh my, uh yeah, I know, um Picking Cotton colon

589
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: Our Memoir of Injustice and Redemption Semi colon. Oh god.

590
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: So yeah. The good luck he had, though, was that

591
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: Bobby Pool and Ronald Cotton were in the same jail

592
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: together and they were frequently mistaken for one another. That's

593
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: how much they really looked alike, and I guess um

594
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: Bobby pool um blab to another inmate that he was

595
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: the one who had really raped Jennifer Thompson and that

596
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 1: Cotton was in there, uh wrongfully, and that word got

597
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: around and then finally, thanks to DNA evidence, Ronald Cotton

598
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: was was excluded from the crime. Yeah, nice sending to

599
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: that story, it is, that's the only one in the

600
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: list that does have a nice ending there, that's true. Uh. So,

601
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: here's the other thing with eyewitness testimony or should we

602
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: take a break to all right, let's take a break

603
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you about that other thing right after this.

604
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: So here's the other thing about eyewitness testimony is that, uh,

605
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: like you have to do this a bunch of times.

606
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 1: It's not like you identify someone in a police lineup

607
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: and then you're in court the next day. You identify

608
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 1: someone in a lineup, and then you're gonna get grilled

609
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: by cops after that, and then you're gonna get talked

610
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: to you by your attorney beforehand, and you're gonna be

611
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: recalling this and describing this scene and this who you

612
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: think is a perpetrator a lot of times. And every

613
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: time this happens, Um something can go wrong with your

614
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: recall basically, yeah, yeah, So, I mean, like we've talked

615
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: about this so many times, but every time you recall

616
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 1: a memory, you are adding to it. You're um, you're

617
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 1: adding more information to it, right, and that information can

618
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: be incorrect or flawed. And if we, if our brains

619
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: kind of strive to create as complete a picture as possible,

620
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: if the memory originally is incomplete, the more we recall it,

621
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: the more we're gonna round it out to create this

622
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: this this picture. And since part of the process, like

623
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: you're saying, of going through the criminal justice system as

624
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: an eyewitnesses to recall over and over and over again,

625
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: by definition, that process um leads to contaminated evidence, in

626
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: this case, the evidence of eyewitnesses um testimony. Yeah, and

627
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: you know, not to mention when cops get in there

628
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: and they ask leading questions a lot of times, and

629
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: even this one example is really great, even swapping out

630
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: one word that you might not think matters if if

631
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 1: you hear the questions did you see the broken headlight?

632
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: As opposed to did you see a broken headlight? That

633
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: takes on a whole different meaning because in that first one,

634
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: the cop is basically saying there was a broken headlight

635
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: and did you see it not? Was there one? Yep?

636
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: That's called the misinformation effect, and it can be as

637
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: innocuous as that it can be purposeful, like if a

638
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: cop believes that the suspect is the one UM. Cops

639
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: have been known to ask leading questions, and when you

640
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: have an eye witness who's kind of so so on something,

641
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: after a few leading questions and they're answering, they can

642
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: become more and more confident in their um in their

643
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: their memory, their recall of the event. And then that

644
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: coupled with the fact that well, this is the right person, obviously,

645
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: because the cops wouldn't be prosecuting UM or arresting somebody

646
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: if it wasn't the right person. That just gives the

647
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: whole thing even more confidence. And studies have found over time,

648
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,479
Speaker 1: the more confidence um or the the longer and more

649
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: often a memory is recalled, the more confidence grows associated

650
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: with it. Right, right, So there's this, there's like a

651
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: um a negative correlation over time between confidence and accuracy

652
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: of a of a memory over time. That's a big

653
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: distinction that we'll get into later. But the longer it

654
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: goes on, so say like from the time of crime

655
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: occurs to the time the court date comes or the

656
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: trial starts could be a year, and you, the eyewitness,

657
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: might have had to recall this for half a dozen

658
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: people at least, not to mention all the friends and

659
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: family that you've shared the story with. And so what

660
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 1: a lot of people say is by the time maybe

661
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: the second, third, fourth time you're recalling this, you're not

662
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: recalling your original memory any longer. You're recalling the story

663
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: that was helped to be fabricated by the cops and

664
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: the prosecutors and in some part by yourself. Just from

665
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: telling this. You're recalling the story. You're not recalling the

666
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: actual memory. And that's a real problem because that's how

667
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: people get um wrongly convicted by eyewitnesses who go into

668
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: court and say, I'm a certain that that was the

669
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: person that I saw commit that crime. Yeah. And the

670
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: thing I mean, if you just think about in your

671
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: own lives, uh not, I mean, forget crimes and forget courtrooms, Like,

672
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: just think about stories that you like, great stories from

673
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: your life that you've told a bunch of different times

674
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: about this one time when like these become so burned

675
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: in your brain as these great stories that like I'm

676
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: always curious too, Like I wish I had video of

677
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: these stories as they happened. Does It'll be kind of

678
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: fun to go back and see this funny story about

679
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: when like my friend and I got shaken down by

680
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: the Texas Highway Patrol. Like I tell the story all

681
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: the time, but it turns out, wonder what really happened

682
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: that day though, right like by the by the end

683
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: of the store, by the time the story is told,

684
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,959
Speaker 1: it's like Chuck Norris himself as Walker Texas Rangers doing

685
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: the search, or or my ghost story in Athens, Like

686
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 1: to me, I tell that story exactly as it happened,

687
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: but who knows. Well, yeah, it's kind of like you're

688
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: playing a game of telephone with yourself over time, you know,

689
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: like stuff just gets kind of muddled and again, normally

690
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: this doesn't matter, you know, unless you happen to be

691
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 1: telling a bit of a fish tale to somebody who

692
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: can't stand fish tales and and calls you out on it.

693
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter, right, Like it does matter in

694
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: a court of law, and the fact that the courts

695
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: have continued to pretend like this this isn't an actual

696
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: implication of the human memory. The human memory is actually

697
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: infallible and just continued on with eyewitness testimony has been

698
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: a problem in the past. I'm not sure if we've

699
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: gotten that across or not. And consider this too, that juries,

700
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,720
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about that confidence building over time.

701
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: By the time you get to that jury and you

702
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: are super confident, that's gonna have a huge impact. Juries

703
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: are going to be far more influenced by a confident

704
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: witness than someone's like, Hey, I'm pretty sure, but you know,

705
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 1: if I'm really being honest, because I'm on the witness stand,

706
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: I can't be sure. Yeah, that is a rare eye

707
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: witness from what I can tell that that by the

708
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: time the trial comes along, they have been so prepped

709
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: and and um guided and have become so confident that,

710
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 1: from what I can tell, it would be really rare

711
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: to hear an eye witness be like I'm not so sure.

712
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: Maybe they probably wouldn't make it to the wit in

713
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: a stand because the prosecutor doesn't want somebody like that

714
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: on the stand. So what you're gonna hear in court

715
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: is yes, I'm absolutely sure, And you know, juries are

716
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: just normal people. They're not doing the research on you know,

717
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: the possible infallibility or the possible fallibility of eyewitness testimony.

718
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: So it's up to the defense attorneys to kind of

719
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: poke holes in this stuff, and so they will. But

720
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: for a long time, this was really surprising to me.

721
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: I had no idea um courts wouldn't allow expert testimony

722
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: that that basically taught jurors how many problems there are

723
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: with human memory, and that eyewitness testimony is not all

724
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: it's cracked up to be, and that not only should

725
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: you not be wowed by the confidence of somebody who

726
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: comes into court a year after the crime is certain,

727
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: you should probably discount that that testimony you all together. Yeah,

728
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: And the reason that they weren't allowed is that they

729
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: claimed that was common sense, Like everybody knows that our

730
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: memories aren't great, and eyewitness testimony probably isn't great, Whereas

731
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: it seems to me obvious that you would want to

732
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: get an expert in there to at least explain this stuff,

733
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: especially in like a capital case. Yeah, I mean, you

734
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: can still make up your own mind, but at least

735
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: know the facts and the science behind eyewitness identification, so

736
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 1: you can like take that into consideration as a juror. Right,

737
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: that's just not the case, that wasn't it. But then

738
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 1: apparently they started um turning overturning convictions because the expert

739
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: witness on eyewitness testimony UM was disallowed. And once that

740
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: started happening, they started allowing them in the actual trials.

741
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: But that's kind of like, if you have a defense

742
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: attorney and you're you're, you know, being um tried for

743
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: a really important cry that you could get some serious

744
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: time for. Do you want that attorney to bring in

745
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: an witness, an expert witness on eyewitness testimony? For sure? Yeah.

746
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court themselves in nineteen seventy seven ruled seven

747
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: to two, uh, that eyewitness testimony is constitutional. It does

748
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: not violate the fourteenth Amendment, even if it's suggestive. But

749
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 1: they said it was subject to five factors. That just depends.

750
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: It's a case by case thing. But UM, the witness's

751
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: degree of attention, So you have to determine that, um,

752
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 1: the opportunity of the witness to view the criminal at

753
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 1: the time of the crime. So I guess just literally

754
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: physically were you able to see this happen right, or

755
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: smell or here or lick the criminal? Um? The accuracy

756
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 1: of the prior description of the criminal. That's a big

757
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: one and that still holds up today. Yeah, like if

758
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: if you told the cops initially that the guy had

759
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: a mustache and you didn't have a mustache, you're going

760
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: to hear about that from the defense during during the trial.

761
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: And we'll get into that later on. But that that,

762
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, that sort of virgin description, is that the

763
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: right word? I love it is the one that really

764
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: should count sure, all right? And then what were the

765
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: last two factors of the five um the level of

766
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 1: certainty demonstrated at the confrontation. And by confrontation they mean

767
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: that that's the thing that you always see on like

768
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: courtroom dramas where the witness they say, you know, do

769
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: you see the perpetrator here today? And the witness says, yes,

770
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: that man there, and then they say, let the records

771
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 1: show that the the witnesses pointing at the defendant. Then

772
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: then Perry Mason farts, right. That's the that's the particular

773
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: one that's under attack today because they're saying, like, how

774
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: certain does that witness seem when they confront the defendant

775
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: in court? And then the last one is the time

776
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: between the crime and the lineup, like, you know, was

777
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: it What if the witness saw the crime and then

778
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: the cops don't catch the person for you know, three months?

779
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: Is that too long? Like does the witness become unusable

780
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: at that point? And those five those were the tests

781
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: for constitutionality of an eye witnesses testimony. Yeah, I think

782
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: those are five pretty decent factors to consider. Yeah, except

783
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: for the one, the one about the certainty demonstrated confrontation.

784
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: And that's the big battle toy, because some people are like, look, man,

785
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: if human memory is that fallible, maybe we should just

786
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: get rid of eyewitness testimony altogether. Right, But now that

787
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: I think is the approach, Like, hey, why don't we

788
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: just treat it like anything that can be contaminated from uh,

789
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: from like physical evidence, Like, why don't we just treat

790
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: this like physical evidence and say, you know it was

791
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: that again, that virgin identification is the one that counts,

792
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: and everything after that is tainted. Yeah, And so everybody

793
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: on this there's a there's kind of a battle over

794
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 1: just how much confidence relates to um accuracy and memory. Right,

795
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: but both sides say everything after that first recall, whether

796
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: it's telling the cop on the scene of the crime,

797
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: what you saw or whether it's the lineup wherever it is.

798
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: The first memory test is what it's called UM. The

799
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: first time you do that, that is the only evidence

800
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: that should be admissible, and everybody can talk about that evidence,

801
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: and you can come to court and describe that evidence,

802
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: but every other time you recall it after that, it

803
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: should be considered contaminated evidence, just as much as you

804
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: would consider um, somebody dropping a blood on a blood

805
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: sample as contaminated, or smearing a fingerprint is contaminated. Same thing.

806
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 1: That's the big, the big trux. Everybody says, disregard everything

807
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: after that. Where they disagree, though, Chuck, is just how

808
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: much during that first UM, that first memory test, how

809
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: much confidence is correlated to accuracy? And some people say

810
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: it's very highly correlated. Like one guy said that in

811
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: I think fifteen different experiments, they found that the accuracy

812
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: was accurate. Um confidence indicated in accuracy. And other people

813
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: are like, that's flim flam. Don't listen to that guy.

814
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: But that's the battle that's going on right now. But

815
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: everybody agrees the whole courtroom, that's the man right there

816
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: that that shouldn't hold any water whatsoever. The problem is

817
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: that holds the most water, because that's what's done in

818
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 1: front of a jury. These are human beings. You know,

819
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: someone might carry that kind of confidence, uh in every

820
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: area of their life, whereas someone else might be very

821
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: unsure about everything in their life, and that wouldn't be

822
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 1: a time for them to be like, you know, someone

823
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 1: who's not very confident, it's probably gonna have a hard

824
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: time being super confident about something this important, sure, you know,

825
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: but you also could imagine that that person would maybe

826
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: be more easily coached than than somebody who does have

827
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: a lot of self confidence. Yeah, and that the phrase

828
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: this is that's what it says. The T shirts say,

829
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: coach him up. So you want to go over any

830
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: of these other ones, I guess we can. I mean,

831
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: this is all sort of innocence projects stuff. Um, I mean,

832
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: there's certainly been plenty of examples over the years. I

833
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: think of the three and well, how many you said,

834
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: there's three fifty two? Now three that I saw three

835
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: sixty five convictions at this time. Let's just say it

836
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 1: was three forty nine that they had overturned. Seventy of

837
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: them were based on the testimony of an eyewitness and

838
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: this is just death row, like forget muggings. Yeah, the

839
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's all just death row or not,

840
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: but that's it's some of these two were not just

841
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: single witnesses, multiple eyewitnesses, which if there's one thing that

842
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: basically says there was a copper prosecutor who coached everybody

843
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: to basically share the same story, that's a it's a

844
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: overturned conviction with multiple eye witnesses that DNA evidence shows

845
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: we're all incorrect. Yeah, this one right here was especially maddening.

846
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: Jerome White in ninety nine was convicted of rape and

847
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 1: robbery and he was exonerated twelve years later. But the

848
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: real guy who did the crime was in the actual

849
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: same lineup where White was identified. So that one's especially

850
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: tough bill to swallow. The one that gets me. Um,

851
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 1: do you remember Troy Davis. Like back in two thousand

852
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: and eleven, Georgia Um executed Troy Davis for the murder

853
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: of a cop, Mark McPhail um, Right, yeah, Don in Savannah,

854
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 1: and there was no physical evidence and no weapon, nothing

855
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: tied Troy Davis to the crime except for nine eye witnesses,

856
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: seven of which recanted their testimony, and um, there was

857
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: a big deal because a lot of people are like,

858
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: it looks like Georgia's going to execute an innocent man.

859
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 1: We need to get this commuted to a life sentence

860
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: so we can try to figure this out. And there

861
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: was a petition that went around I remember signing it.

862
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: There was six sixty thousand signatures on this petition, and

863
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: it still didn't get his sentence commuted, and Georgia executed

864
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: what was almost certainly an innocent man for the murder

865
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: of Mark McPhail. Yeah, that was tough, which also means

866
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: that the murderer of Mark McPhail is still out there somewhere. Yeah.

867
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: I think that's not mentioned enough in these cases. It's

868
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: like it's obviously we should think about the victim, then

869
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: the second victim, which is a person falsely accused, and

870
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: then there's also a murderer out there. Yep. Maybe, Yeah,

871
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: that was a That's another episode I want to do,

872
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 1: is is you know times when the the um when

873
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: almost certainly innocent people were executed. Okay, there'll be a

874
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 1: fun one. That's a good title for the You gotta

875
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 1: put the m in there too. Yeah. Uh, well, that's

876
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: it for eyewitness testimony unless you have something else. I

877
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: got nothing else. Well, Chuck says nothing else. I got

878
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: nothing else. So that means everybody, it's time for a

879
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 1: listener mail. This is a very sweet email. Hey guys.

880
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: On Father's Day in two thousand fifteen, our son Aaron

881
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: died from cancer at the age of forty. One of

882
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: his last wishes was for his beloved Australian shepherd dog

883
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 1: Scully to live on a family farm with some wonderful

884
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: friends he knew from Pennsylvania, U scullies with was with

885
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: us in southern California at the time, so I began

886
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: looking at options to send her back, and it became

887
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: obvious at driving Scully to Gettysburg was the only true

888
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: way to say goodbye and carry out Aaron's wish. I

889
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: announced that the family I was taking her back, and

890
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: our daughter, who would come home to be by a

891
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: side while he was in auspice, quickly said she wanted

892
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: to come with me. Without any further delay, the three

893
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: of us took off across the country. After a few

894
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: hours of listening to the radio, our daughter Brandy said,

895
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 1: do you want to listen to some podcasts? Sure, was

896
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: my response. What's a podcast? So she plugged in her

897
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: phone and started an episode of Stuff You Should Know,

898
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: And from that moment on, for the next four days,

899
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: we listened to an endless stream of you guys. I

900
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: want to thank you for helping us cope with the

901
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: pain and heartache we were dealing with your banter and fun.

902
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 1: We're very therapeutic as my daughter and I traveled across

903
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: country with our thoughts and Scully. Being with my daughter

904
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: and sharing all this time together with you by your

905
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: sides was one of the best experiences of my life.

906
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: Given the circumstances, I now listen to you guys often,

907
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,760
Speaker 1: and my daughter even bought me a Jerry quote blank

908
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: T shirt as a reminder of our time together. And

909
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: that is from Doug and Brandy Bell. Thanks a lot, Doug,

910
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 1: and thanks a lot, Brandy. I like the cut of

911
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: your jib for suggesting stuff you should Know. Yeah, terrible circumstance,

912
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: but I'm glad Scully's on that farm in Pennsylvania. Thanks Doug,

913
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 1: Thank you, Brandy and uh On behalf of all of

914
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 1: us our deepest condolences. We're glad that we could have

915
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 1: some small part in making it a little better for

916
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: you absolutely If you want to get in touch with us,

917
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 1: like Doug did Um, you can go onto stuff you

918
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: Should Know dot com and check out our social links.

919
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: You can also send us an email to stuff podcast

920
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: i heeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is

921
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radios. How stuff works. For more

922
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app.

923
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.