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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm fine.

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Speaker 2: I am experiencing birthday hangover, but not my birthday, my

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Speaker 2: kid's birthday. My birthdays are usually my birthdays three days

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Speaker 2: after Christmas, so we've talked about that before. My birthdays

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Speaker 2: are pretty chill, but my kid's birthdays, my goodness, it

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Speaker 2: just feels like we're having celebration after celebration, and it's

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Speaker 2: like carte launched for them to do whatever they want.

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Speaker 2: Were you really able to let your kids do whatever

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Speaker 2: they wanted on their birthdays or were you sort of saying, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we're going to get this done and that's.

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Speaker 1: It and move on.

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, I wouldn't say anything they wanted. But of course,

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Speaker 3: you know, as they when they were younger, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of a big deal. You know, for younger kids,

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Speaker 3: birthday celebrations are important, and so of course there was

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Speaker 3: a variety of different activities that would be done over

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Speaker 3: the years for the kids. And as they gotten older,

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Speaker 3: we just kind of have pulled back and now they

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Speaker 3: would probably rather be out with their friends for their

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Speaker 3: birthday or have their friends over than have the parents

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Speaker 3: have to do some sort of activity for them.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to transition and go very very modern

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Speaker 2: for us nineteen thirties to nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's amazing. It's amazing.

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Speaker 2: And we're going to go to Atlanta, Georgia, and we

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Speaker 2: are going to talk about someone who was a serial killer,

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Speaker 2: a woman with at least ten victims. She is virtually

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Speaker 2: unknown in history, and it's probably because both she and

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Speaker 2: the victims were black. So it's interesting to talk about

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Speaker 2: somebody like a Samuel Little or some of these folks

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Speaker 2: who you know, you would think would be compared to

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Speaker 2: it Edmund Kemper or a Ted Bundy or a Dennis Raider.

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Speaker 2: But I'm going to be interested in talking to you

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Speaker 2: about out why somebody would not be famous. What is

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Speaker 2: the storyline that the media or the audience picks up

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Speaker 2: on that turned somebody from a craven killer who is

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Speaker 2: a serial killer into this level of infamy that we're

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Speaker 2: seeing in a Jeffrey Dalmer or a Ted Mundy. Because

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Speaker 2: you know, these are terrible crimes, but they did not

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Speaker 2: catch the media's attention, even the black media's attention.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's.

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Speaker 1: Still a bad, bad series of crimes.

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Speaker 2: So let's go ahead and set the scene. So there's

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Speaker 2: some thematic overlap between this story and a story that

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Speaker 2: I told.

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Speaker 1: You kind of a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember the enri Lan Drew story? Who was

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Speaker 2: the blue Beard from France? Do you remember anything about

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Speaker 2: that story? I know we talk a lot about there's.

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Speaker 1: A lot of killers in there in our list. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember the blue Beard?

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Speaker 3: I do remember talking about that. A lot of the

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Speaker 3: details are a little fuzzy, which is pretty typical for

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Speaker 3: me after you know.

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Speaker 1: You're blocking them out.

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Speaker 3: Hundreds, yeah, hundreds of different cases. But yes, I remember

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Speaker 3: that that episode for a little bit.

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Speaker 2: So Landrew would draw women in using kind of the

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Speaker 2: lonely hearts ads. He was killing people during I think

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Speaker 2: World War One, so there were a lot of single

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Speaker 2: women out there, and you know, he would murder them.

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Speaker 2: He would draw them in and marry them and murder them.

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Speaker 2: This person that we're going to talk about is not

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Speaker 2: stopping with the people that she's married to. She's expanding

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Speaker 2: to a lot of different family members. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to dance around who it is.

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Speaker 1: It's our main character.

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Speaker 2: And what I want to know from you as we

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Speaker 2: kind of go through this is number one, what is

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Speaker 2: she thinking? You know, I still don't quite understand the

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Speaker 2: idea of killing everybody around you, not for sexual pleasure,

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Speaker 2: but for money or for other reasons. And also how

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Speaker 2: does someone get away with it and fly under the radar?

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Speaker 2: You know, I guess it's the sort of the persona

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Speaker 2: of the person and where you fall under in the

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Speaker 2: list of infamy of serial killers. This story is two decades,

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Speaker 2: starting in the late thirties until the early nineteen fifties

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Speaker 2: in Atlanta, Georgia. Atlanta is getting the reputation for being

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Speaker 2: the cradle of the civil rights movement at this point.

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Speaker 2: So there is a lot of upheaval, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of demand from people of color for equal rights, and

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Speaker 2: so the city is really in a big push pool

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Speaker 2: at this point. And I think one of the things

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Speaker 2: that we've talked about in the past is when we

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Speaker 2: talk about people of color, and it might not be

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Speaker 2: just people who are black, but you know, it could

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Speaker 2: be indigenous, it could be people of Asian descent, whomever

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Speaker 2: we're talking about. When we talk about them in history,

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Speaker 2: there's often not as much of information as we want

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Speaker 2: because law enforcement doesn't care as much in history about

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Speaker 2: these victims. And sometimes in this case, I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: they care that much about the killer. So you might

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Speaker 2: want more information about our killer.

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Speaker 1: Than I might have.

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Speaker 2: And it's just because you know, we have a history

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Speaker 2: in our country of ignoring underrepresented people, even if they

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Speaker 2: are convicted killers.

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Speaker 1: And that's what's happening here. Okay, So I just want

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Speaker 1: to get you ready for that.

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Speaker 3: Hey, I'm geared up, let's hear it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here we go.

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Speaker 2: So, the woman's name that we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: today is ROBERTA Elder, and she was born around nineteen

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Speaker 2: oh nine. She spends most of her time in Watkinsville, Georgia,

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Speaker 2: and then she moves on to Atlanta. We don't know

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Speaker 2: much about her background, how she grew up again, underrepresented people,

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Speaker 2: underreported is kind of what I usually say. But as

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Speaker 2: a young adult, Roberta gets into our relationship with a

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Speaker 2: man whose last name is Thurmond, and we don't know

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Speaker 2: a lot about them, except that there is a son

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Speaker 2: that's named James, and he goes by Willie, So I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to call him Willy from now on, and

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Speaker 2: he becomes important later on. There's also two daughters, Willie

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Speaker 2: May and Lizzie May, and both daughters die in infancy,

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Speaker 2: both of these little girls, and one is two weeks old,

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Speaker 2: one is one week old. And this is where details

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Speaker 2: about Roberta get sketchy. So there's no proof that she

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Speaker 2: killed these children, but there is an insinuation because when

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Speaker 2: it comes out later on that she is a serial

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Speaker 2: killer within acquaintances and family members, and I know that

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Speaker 2: is not our traditional definition of a serial killer, but

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Speaker 2: over two decades she murders a lot of people. When

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Speaker 2: it comes out that she is this killer, we began

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Speaker 2: looking back at all the people who died in her family,

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Speaker 2: and they sort of start with these two little girls,

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Speaker 2: but we don't know the circumstances of their death. We

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Speaker 2: don't have enough information because at the time, it was

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Speaker 2: just considered children who had just been born and gotten

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Speaker 2: sick and died, So that would have flown under the radar.

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Speaker 2: Would that have flown under the radar now? Would it

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Speaker 2: have been considered unusual for a child to die shortly

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Speaker 2: after childbirth now or would that sound alarm bells to

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Speaker 2: police investigators now?

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Speaker 3: Well, today you know, of course, there's so much more

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Speaker 3: ability to determine the cause of death and if there

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Speaker 3: is anything that is suspicious about it. This is the

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Speaker 3: role of both you know, the medical professionals. If these

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Speaker 3: children are brought in and they're in some sort of

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Speaker 3: medical emergency, if they die, then now you have in

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Speaker 3: many jurisdictions, you have death investigators that are responding out

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Speaker 3: to the death scene. They're documenting it, they are trained on,

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Speaker 3: you know, what to look for that's anything suspicious. If

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Speaker 3: they see anything suspicious, even if it's like, well, I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure, they need to be pulling out homicide investigators.

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Speaker 3: And then of course you hope that you have, you know,

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Speaker 3: very highly trained forensic pathologists that can recognize there is

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Speaker 3: something suspicious about why this child died and possibly could

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Speaker 3: even determine this is a homicide, you know. So I

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Speaker 3: think it's much more difficult to get away with killing

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Speaker 3: your child and making it look like it was due

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Speaker 3: to some sort of natural cause or you know, exposure

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Speaker 3: to you, whether it be a toxin or pathogen of

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Speaker 3: some sort. I think the medical and death investigation process is,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're looking for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And in the nineteen thirties, I'm not sure how

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Speaker 2: much they would have been looking unless it just seemed

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Speaker 2: like very obvious signs. There was nothing obvious about the

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Speaker 2: death of these two little girls, and so we could

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Speaker 2: just assume that they died of natural causes. But based

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Speaker 2: on her history, as we'll find out, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think you keep it on the back burner for now.

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Speaker 2: So by the mid nineteen thirties, when she would have

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Speaker 2: been maybe in her twenties, mid twenties, she's no longer

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Speaker 2: with this guy, mister Thurmond, who's the father of her children.

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Speaker 1: We don't know why. They might have divorced, or maybe

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Speaker 1: he died. We're not sure.

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Speaker 2: She's not a suspect officially with anything right now. But

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Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty eight, Roberta is about thirty years old

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Speaker 2: and she gets into our relationship with a guy named

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Speaker 2: John Woodward. So some people describe him as just a friend,

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Speaker 2: but others say this is her common law husband. We

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Speaker 2: don't know for sure, but they did live together in Atlanta,

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Speaker 2: and Roberta's teenage son, who's thirteen, Willie, is living with

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Speaker 2: them too, So in this relationship, not long after they

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Speaker 2: started it, John Woodward ends up dying, and there's not

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Speaker 2: a lot of information of what he dies of, but

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Speaker 2: I think we're going to find out later on that

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Speaker 2: these people all tended to have sort of the same symptoms.

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Speaker 1: But he's young.

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Speaker 2: He's thirty six years old, and he's died in what's

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Speaker 2: reported as a mysterious illness, but we're not even sure

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Speaker 2: he's been given an appropriate cause of death. So at

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Speaker 2: thirty six in nineteen thirty eight, they could have been

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Speaker 2: many things. It could have been the flu, it could

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Speaker 2: have been things.

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Speaker 1: That killed him.

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Speaker 2: Now, but you know, right now, we just know that

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Speaker 2: there's a man in his mid thirties who's been living

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Speaker 2: with this woman for not very long in her teenage son,

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Speaker 2: and he is now dead.

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Speaker 3: And how did they meet? Did they just run across

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Speaker 3: each other or is she answering to ads? You know

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Speaker 3: that people are putting out you know, what's the victimology

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Speaker 3: like here?

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Speaker 1: I think they just knew each other from the neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: is what I gather.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I don't think she's putting out ads or

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Speaker 2: anything like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's Atlanta, it's a big city. In the nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Thirties, there are very large black sections of Atlanta, sections

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Speaker 2: of Atlanta where black people would live. So I think

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Speaker 2: this is probably just an acquaintance situation.

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Speaker 1: Where they meet.

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Speaker 2: He does not seem to have any prior health concerns,

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Speaker 2: and he's thirty six. But you know, no alarm bells

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Speaker 2: are sounding, except one year later, I see an alarm

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Speaker 2: bell that I don't think anybody else sees when something

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Speaker 2: happens in Roberta's home again. So she has a teenage

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Speaker 2: son named Willie, and he passes away at thirteen years old.

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Speaker 2: So this is about a year later. So this thirty

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Speaker 2: six year old man dies in a mysterious way, but

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Speaker 2: the police are not called. So Willie dies who's thirteen

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Speaker 2: and on the death certificate, his cause of death is

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Speaker 2: determined to be malnutrition and respiratory trouble. So what is

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Speaker 2: that malnutrition and respiratory trouble?

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Speaker 3: Well, he's he's a victim of child abuse. He is

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Speaker 3: being you know, she's withholding food from him. And you know,

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Speaker 3: whether or not the respiratory issues are a result of

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Speaker 3: the malnutrition or there's something else going on, I couldn't say.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's why autopsies are conducted in part is

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Speaker 3: to get those types of answers. But right now, the

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Speaker 3: malnutrition should be a huge red flag as why can

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Speaker 3: she not provide food to her child?

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Speaker 1: It says malnutrition.

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Speaker 2: Is there any way that there is some type of

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Speaker 2: disease that would mimic malnutrition? I mean maybe if you

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Speaker 2: have stomach problems for two or three weeks or is

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Speaker 2: it really clear when it's malnutrition from child.

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Speaker 3: Abuse, I would definitely be deferring to a pathologist medical professional.

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Speaker 3: But the pathologist is listing the cause of death as malnutrition. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and a pathologist would recognize if that malnutrition was a

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Speaker 3: result of a disease state or was a result of

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Speaker 3: a lack of food and of course, there would be

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Speaker 3: other indicators within the house in terms of what has

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Speaker 3: going on. This is a thirteen year old boy, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's not a two year old. Is there food in

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Speaker 3: the house? Has the boy been eating? You know? Is

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Speaker 3: there other symptoms that have been on display for a

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Speaker 3: period of time where now this thirteen year old boy

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Speaker 3: is becoming frail as a result of not being able

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Speaker 3: to ingest food or digest it properly. But that's where

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Speaker 3: the pathologist weighs in, you know. But right now, when

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Speaker 3: I hear cause of death as malnutrition, you know, my

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Speaker 3: immediate thought is, is there is a criminal act happening

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Speaker 3: that parent isn't taken care of her child and let

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Speaker 3: it linger so long that that child died. Now, maybe

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Speaker 3: there was some sort of disease state, but why isn't

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Speaker 3: she acting on it earlier to prevent this child's death?

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Speaker 2: And I'm curious about whether or not this child abuse

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Speaker 2: malnutrition started before the husband died John, because you know,

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Speaker 2: you've got John dying in nineteen thirty eight, and then

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Speaker 2: Willie the Sun dies a year later. So I wonder

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Speaker 2: if as soon as John is dead, this is when

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Speaker 2: the malnutrition part starts. But I'm still concerned. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what the respiratory trouble would be. What are they seeing?

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Speaker 2: Are they seeing something in his lungs during an autopsy

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Speaker 2: to make it import to put on their death certific kit?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it like a strange combo? It seems like a

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Speaker 2: weird combo to have on a death certificate.

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Speaker 3: It is, you know. But that's again where I think

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Speaker 3: the medical professionals have to weigh in on. Could the

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Speaker 3: state of the malnutrition be the primary cause of death

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Speaker 3: and the respiratory issue being sort of a side symptom

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Speaker 3: of the malnutrition. What exactly is this respiratory issue that's

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Speaker 3: going on, because there can be many different types of

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Speaker 3: respiratory issues, and maybe that is a clue as to

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Speaker 3: what might be the underlying cause. You know, like, let's

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Speaker 3: say she's poisoning her child, and that poisoning aspect is

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Speaker 3: causing that child to exhibit the malnutrition, but also that

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Speaker 3: poisoning is potentially manifesting as a how do I want

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Speaker 3: to say it, that this respiratory thing may be one

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Speaker 3: of those types of symptoms from this toxin being in

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Speaker 3: the child's body. So right now, I don't know. You know,

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Speaker 3: this autopsy cause of deaths is too generic to say

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Speaker 3: for sure what is going on. It's just the people

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Speaker 3: looking at her. Does she look like she's healthy, like

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Speaker 3: she's getting adequate food and her child is dying of malnutrition.

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Speaker 3: That's a problem.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not sounding any alarms with the authorities at all,

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Speaker 2: because nothing changes for Roberta. She ends up about two

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Speaker 2: or three years later remarrying. She marries a guy named

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Speaker 2: James Garfield Crane, and James Garfield Crane has a grandson

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Speaker 2: who's named Jimmy Lee Crane and he is two years old.

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Speaker 2: Both of them die in less than two years after

300
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Speaker 2: they've been married. Both James and Jimmy, the grandson die

301
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Speaker 2: and both causes of death are unclear from the day certificates.

302
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Speaker 2: So you've got now, every time somebody lives with her,

303
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Speaker 2: they end up dying, and nobody can really trace what's

304
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Speaker 2: happening with these people.

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Speaker 3: And she's generally living in the same jurisdiction, right she is.

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Speaker 2: I don't think she's moving actually, I think this all

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Speaker 2: might be the same house, and people keep moving in with.

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Speaker 3: Her, and there's family friends that live you know, with her,

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Speaker 3: around her there's you know, the same neighbors. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's one thing if you have you know, like from

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Speaker 3: the law enforcement side. You know, law enforcement isn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: tracking back then tracking this type of thing. Nowadays, of course,

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Speaker 3: it's say we're responding out we've got a death out

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Speaker 3: at this location. You know what previous callouts have we

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Speaker 3: had at this location, Oh, we've been out there three

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Speaker 3: times before, because other people have been found dead inside

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Speaker 3: this house. There'd be alarm bells going off. If all

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Speaker 3: these deceased individuals are flowing through the corner's office, you know,

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Speaker 3: there would be alarm bells going off. So there is

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Speaker 3: definitely a deficit in terms of not only from the authorities,

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Speaker 3: but even just the people in her social circles. If

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Speaker 3: this is not causing somebody to go there's a problem

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Speaker 3: going on here and actually calling up the law enforcement

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Speaker 3: agency and saying you need to look at this, you're

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Speaker 3: going to.

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Speaker 2: Keep saying that for a while, I'm afraid. So there's

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Speaker 2: a little girl named Gloria Evans. She's three, and this

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Speaker 2: is Roberta's cousin. She dies the year after Roberta's new

329
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Speaker 2: husband and the husband's two year old grandson dies. Now

330
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Speaker 2: we have a tiny bit more information. Gloria the coroner

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Speaker 2: says died of acute gastro enteritis caused by food poisoning.

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Speaker 2: So that just sounds like that could have been an

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Speaker 2: arsenic maybe what do you think?

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Speaker 3: So if she's calling food poisoning to me, that sounds

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Speaker 3: like it most likely is going to be like a

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Speaker 3: bacterial food poisoning.

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Speaker 2: Do people die from food poisoning? Is that a thing

338
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Speaker 2: in the nineteen forties? Would that have really happened?

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Speaker 3: It happens today A three year old would though, well, well,

340
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Speaker 3: your younger children and your more elderly are more susceptible

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Speaker 3: to some of these more severe forms of food poisoning.

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Speaker 3: I will tell you that what year was that twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 3: twenty fifteen I came down with E Coli O one

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Speaker 3: five seven, And I will tell you, and I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to go into graphic detail, this was when the

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Speaker 3: Ebola outbreak was going on in Africa, and so when

347
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Speaker 3: I showed up with severe symptoms, the hospital quarantine to me,

348
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Speaker 3: thinking I potentially could have been exposed to ebola. And

349
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Speaker 3: I will tell you that, Yeah, a frail person going

350
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Speaker 3: through what I went through it most certainly possibly could

351
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Speaker 3: kill him, you know, so there are some serious pathogens

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Speaker 3: out there that can be fatal, so it'd be interesting

353
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Speaker 3: to see it was this truly food poisoning or did

354
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Speaker 3: the pathologists just miss diagnose this gastroententtis as being you know,

355
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Speaker 3: this this inflammation of the digestice system, if you will,

356
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Speaker 3: And maybe Roberta just said, yeah, he ate something and

357
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Speaker 3: got sick, you know, and they got influenced by that.

358
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Speaker 3: But could this gastroentritis be a result of being exposed

359
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Speaker 3: to maybe a poison.

360
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Speaker 2: Well, let me reveal something to you before we move

361
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 2: forward with many other victims. So Roberta is not surprisingly,

362
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Speaker 2: i'm sure, taking out life insurance policies on all of

363
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Speaker 2: these people, essentially not everybody, but pretty much all of them,

364
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Speaker 2: ranging from fifty dollars to five hundred and fifty dollars

365
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Speaker 2: which would have been you know, in the thousands on

366
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Speaker 2: many of these family members. So what she would do

367
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Speaker 2: is take out the policy a year before they died,

368
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Speaker 2: and then she would kill them, and she would of

369
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Speaker 2: course be the beneficiary. So I just wanted you to

370
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Speaker 2: keep that in mind, because I'm sure you wanted to

371
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Speaker 2: know what a motive was, but I would have guessed.

372
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Speaker 2: I'm sure you would have guessed that money was the motive, obviously,

373
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Speaker 2: but there are so many more. We left off with

374
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Speaker 2: the three year old girl who died of gastro enteritis,

375
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Speaker 2: and a year later, so remember we go by years here,

376
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Speaker 2: a year later, Roberta's mother dies, same way. I mean,

377
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Speaker 2: we've talked about people who have killed family members, but

378
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Speaker 2: this is next level.

379
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Speaker 1: It's like anybody who comes into her household.

380
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Speaker 3: She's obviously going after people she has access to. And

381
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 3: you know, she's either gaining access through developing relationships with men,

382
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 3: or she's gaining access, you know, to family members. In

383
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 3: many ways, this is not a very sophisticated offender. This

384
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Speaker 3: is just somebody who is living in an environment in

385
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Speaker 3: which she can get away with this. And as she

386
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Speaker 3: gets away with these crimes, it just emboldens her to

387
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Speaker 3: keep going.

388
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Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that I talk about in

389
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Speaker 2: my books is killers in the way that they look.

390
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: So you know, Edward Ruloff, which was from my book

391
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 2: Call That Is Wicked, looked like a country gentleman. He

392
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Speaker 2: spoke eloquently, he was well educated, self educated, but well educated,

393
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Speaker 2: and he did not look like an untrustworthy person. And

394
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Speaker 2: this is a time period when a man's handshake is

395
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Speaker 2: plenty for people. And this does spill over, of course

396
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 2: into the twentieth century. So ROBERTA, I'm showing you a

397
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Speaker 2: picture of her now lovely looking woman, I mean, and

398
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 2: I'll show you one a little bit further down where

399
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: you can sort of see a bigger picture of her.

400
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: But this is not someone at all you would target

401
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 2: and say, boy, she really looks, you know, suspicious in

402
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: any way. She looks sort of like an older, older

403
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 2: mother or a grandmother, a young grandmother. This would throw

404
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 2: me off completely if I were an investigator, and I

405
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: would just think in the nineteen fifties, a male investigator

406
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: would look at this woman and say, no way, no way,

407
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: this is happening, right.

408
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 3: I mean she yeah, she just looks like a pleasant,

409
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 3: older lady. But this is where these killers, these serial predators,

410
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 3: they don't always look like the boogeyman or the boogey woman,

411
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: right yeah, And that's where people can get lured into.

412
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 3: We all are biased in terms of judging somebody else.

413
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 3: And if you have somebody that looks pleasant, looks attractive,

414
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 3: and acts a certain way your defenses go down. You know,

415
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 3: you kind of become more trusting of that person. And

416
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 3: that's where some of these killers, you know, and notably

417
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 3: somebody like a Ted Bundy, who was considered to be

418
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 3: a physically attractive man, Well, he could take advantage of

419
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 3: that physical attribute to put his victims at a kind

420
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: of a lower sense of security in order for him

421
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 3: to be able to get closer to the victims, you know,

422
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: And that's just reality. There are some of these offenders that,

423
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 3: by any measure of physical characteristics look like the Boogeyman.

424
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 3: But you know, these offenders will capitalize on their physical

425
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: attributes in order to be able to further victimize.

426
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Speaker 2: Well, she is unassuming with two lines underneath it.

427
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: She seems unassuming to me.

428
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 2: Not surprised. Her mother dies and a few years later

429
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 2: she meets another man. He is a reverend and very

430
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 2: respected member of the community. His name is William Elder, Senior,

431
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: and this is how she ends up with her last name,

432
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: ROBERTA Elder. So they are married and she sort of

433
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: inherits five step children. They are like fifteen and nine

434
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: and you know, other various ages, and they're all living

435
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: together in Atlanta.

436
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know the.

437
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: Reverend Elder had just lost his wife the year before

438
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: to influenza, and not to Roberta. I think this was

439
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: a legitimate case of flu and they get married to

440
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: less than a year later.

441
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: This doesn't surprise me, of course at all.

442
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 2: That would have been pretty typical of a man, especially

443
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: one with kids, you know, who needed a maternal figure

444
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: in the house, would have done so. When she joins

445
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: the house, we very quickly, probably within about looks like

446
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 2: to me, about six months, two of the kids die,

447
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: the nine year old and the fifteen year old. Now

448
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 2: this is where I'm confused. Their causes of death are

449
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 2: listed as pneumonia. Is it just me or if she

450
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 2: is using the same thing to kill all of these people?

451
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: It feels like the symptoms are all over the place.

452
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I know we talked about malnutrition, but food poisoning, pneumonia,

453
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: respiratory problems. I don't know what's going on. Is there

454
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: one thing that can mimic all different types of diseases?

455
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know about that, you know, but when

456
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 3: you mentioned pneumonia, I went back to, you know, the

457
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: child that had the respiratory contribution to cause of death,

458
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 3: you know, and so that may be something that would

459
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 3: indicate there was something similar done to these children. She

460
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: could be multi modal in terms of what she's doing,

461
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 3: you know, it varies from victim to victim, or maybe

462
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: she is using something that does cause different types of

463
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 3: symptoms and different people because we all have different ways

464
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: that we react. Our bodies were just different, you know.

465
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 3: And so the symptoms that one person may have when

466
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 3: exposed to a substance could be different than symptoms at

467
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 3: another person would exhibit, or they're dying at different stages

468
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: within the development of what ultimately causes the death.

469
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to tell you a little story inside

470
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: this story, and maybe it'll give us some clarity on

471
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: how the first child died, the one who was described

472
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: as who died from malnutrition with respiratory problems. So the

473
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: reverend not surprisingly gets sick, probably about a year after

474
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: they're married. His children. Two of his kids have died,

475
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: and now he feels very sick after eating a lunch

476
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: of bananas and cheese at his job. He works at

477
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: a construction site. So, according to a journalist named William Falkes,

478
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: who covered the case for the black newspaper The Pittsburgh courier.

479
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: He said that the reverend started vomiting and sweating. His

480
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: stomach was real sick. Okay, so before you comment on that,

481
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: let me tell you this. Roberta calls the doctor. The

482
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: doctor gives some medicine, and Roberta says, what should I do?

483
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 2: And the doctor says, give him the medicine. If things

484
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: get worse, call me back. So she didn't. She waits

485
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: until he is basically on death's door, calls the doctor,

486
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: and then the reverend passes away on August twenty first,

487
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty two. So here's the description of his body. Okay,

488
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: they at first thought that this was food poisoning, which

489
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: of course we've heard of before. That's what she said.

490
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: She said, I think he got sick from bad bananas

491
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: or something. But here's how the coroner described his body.

492
00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: The reverend's body is described as emaciated and reportedly add

493
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: multiple ruddy sores on it, and this is what makes

494
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: his personal doctor suspicious. So emaciated again, are we now

495
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: thinking there's a poison that actually caused over time, maybe

496
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: slow poisoning that caused this in the sun will he also.

497
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 3: Yes, I think you're looking at chronic exposure to something

498
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: and the sores on his body. There's something that's tickling

499
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: the back of my brain about what that might have

500
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: caused that, But right now I'm drawing a blank, you know.

501
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 3: But of course there's your common poisons that are being employed,

502
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: such as your arsenics and your strict nines, you know,

503
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 3: and maybe there's something going on there. But there's no

504
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: question this appears to be chronic oral ingestion of some

505
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: sort of toxin.

506
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: You know.

507
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: We talked about this in another case where the skin

508
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: was showing kind of rash and it turned out to

509
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: be arsenic, and it was like a weird infection, and

510
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: I think that what might be happening here, whatever it is,

511
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: Finally somebody thinks something is wrong with this family, and

512
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: his doctor really becomes alarmed because then he remembers there

513
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: are all of these other sudden deaths at the home.

514
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: He's thinking that this is really somebody's in danger here,

515
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: so he asks for a complete autopsy to be performed

516
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: on the reverend. He said that pneumonia and arsenic poisoning

517
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: can present similar symptoms. So the coroner decided, well, it's

518
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: this pathologist here. I guess, yes, there were pathologists in

519
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: the fifties, so pathologists decided to look for traces of

520
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: arsenic specifically. So this general practitioner said, I know that

521
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: this can seem like arsenic poisoning. I need you to

522
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: test for it. And so a toxicologist came back and said,

523
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: we found that he was simply loaded with the poison arsenic.

524
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: And of course ROBERTA. Elder is the number one suspect here.

525
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's just now that somebody's getting suspicious. But

526
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: it's sort of like, oh, you have I don't know

527
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: how much she had killed up to this point, but

528
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: you know, eight dead, and then now you got nine dead,

529
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: and now you get suspicious. You know, it seems like

530
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: it's a little late in the ballgame.

531
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: Right absolutely.

532
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: I mean, okay, So if I count these up, we've

533
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: got the second husband, John Woodward. Then we've got the

534
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: teenage son, Willie. Then we've got her third husband and

535
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: his little grandson, so that's I think we're up to four.

536
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 2: Then we've got the three year old cousin. Then we've

537
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: got the mom, so now we're up to six. Then

538
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: you've got William Elders the reverend's two kids, so that's eight.

539
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 2: Then you've got William Elder.

540
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: That's nine.

541
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

542
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: Okay, So she comes in front of the coroner's jury

543
00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 2: and denies any of this.

544
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: She said, I took care of my husband really well.

545
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything.

546
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: But then the doctor testified and said, not only did

547
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: Roberta avoid contacting me when my patient was dying, he

548
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: also said that the reverence and here's the quote, skin

549
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: had slipped and there were peculiar skin discolorations and sores

550
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: on his body. Now that's not abuse, right, because I

551
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: guess now I'm alarmed about the emaciated comment and these

552
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 2: weird sores, but I guess we are attributing that to

553
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: arsenic right, Yeah, let's what.

554
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 3: Was he bedridden for a period of time. Do we

555
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 3: potentially have some ulcerated sores as a result of not

556
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: being moved around?

557
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: Maybe? I mean, if this is long term, boy, you

558
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: would think so, but I don't know.

559
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: So. Now Roberta's stepchildren are testifying. She has a stepdaughter

560
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: named Dorothy, and she said she once became very ill

561
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: after Roberta gave her a dose of milk of magnesia,

562
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: which is used medicinally for like heart burn and upset stomachs.

563
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: And constipation, and a.

564
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: Sister Viola backs that story up by saying that she

565
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: had been sick and even vomited after Roberta gave her

566
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 2: some medicine, which also was probably milk of magnesia. And

567
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: then another one of the Reverence kids said he was

568
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: suffering from the illness twice following meals, so he stopped

569
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: eating over there. He was like, forget this, I'm not

570
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: eating her food anymore. He said, I thought that Roberta

571
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 2: was poisoning people. So now we're at a point where

572
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: I think she's getting sloppy. She seems to be trying

573
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: to kill everyone in sight. Is she not scared of

574
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: being caught or is she that blinded? And I don't

575
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: know if this is greed anymore. This just seems like

576
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 2: haphazard at this point. It's like anybody who's in my house,

577
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill for insurance money.

578
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 3: Well as she got away with the homicides. That's where

579
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 3: you know offenders do. They get overly confident, and they

580
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: often start trying to make it easier to commit these crimes.

581
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 3: They get lax that over confidence oftentimes will get them caught.

582
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 3: I kind of wonder, you know, when the reverend's wife

583
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: died and he had these five kids. Did she target

584
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: him because all of a sudden she's looking at this

585
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 3: going kachin right, did she take out life insurance policies

586
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 3: on him and five kids? Now she has access to

587
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 3: six people and one foul swoop.

588
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of who makes money, So she's not killing him. First,

589
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: She's got to get rid of the kid. You know,

590
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: he's stuck with all these kids. So she's getting rid

591
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: of the kids first and then him. But it didn't

592
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: work with a couple of them.

593
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 3: And you know, in terms of is this purely financially

594
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: motivated or is there an aspect to her that compels

595
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 3: her to want to kill Yeah, you know this lunch

596
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 3: ausend type of syndrome that we've talked about before. It

597
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: is interesting. But just the sheer volume of people that

598
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 3: are so close to her within a relatively short period

599
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 3: of time, it's stunning that this wasn't caught earlier in

600
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: this series.

601
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 1: Me too. And you know, I don't know what that means.

602
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: I think it's based on her, the way she looked,

603
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: the way she carried herself.

604
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: I also don't.

605
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 2: Know if this was a family that had sort of

606
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: a lot of reach into the community. The reverend did,

607
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 2: so I'm not sure why people didn't sound the alarm.

608
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: And this is not the eighteen hundreds. This is the

609
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, where yeah, there were diseases, but we're we're

610
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: not talking about like typhoid or the black plague, you know,

611
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: We're talking about stuff that's not dissimilar form what we

612
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: have now. So they really narrow this down to arsenic

613
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: based pesticide, which is a pin powder.

614
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: Her brother had.

615
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 2: A farm near Watkinsville, and she would go and visit. Again,

616
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: I am dumbfounded that people can figure out a way

617
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: to cover up the taste of what must have been

618
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: disgusting arsenic based pesticide pink powder, and she gets people

619
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: to eat this or swallow this. Maybe it only takes

620
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: one time, but boy, she must have had the dosages

621
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 2: down pretty well, except for the two that didn't get

622
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: killed well.

623
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 3: And that's kind of my guess right there, is that

624
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, how foul arsenic or this

625
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 3: arsenic pesticide actually tastes. I mean, there are toxins that

626
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 3: are are quite pleasant tasting, you know, Ethlene glycol antifreeze

627
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 3: is very sweet, tasting, and that's why it can be

628
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 3: so dangerous to kids and like dogs. If you know,

629
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 3: there's some anti freeze that's been spilled on the garage floor,

630
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: there's a bottle of this shiny, shiny what looks like gatorade,

631
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 3: and it tastes good. So it may have a potency

632
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 3: that allows her to dose it at a fairly low

633
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 3: level to where it's relatively easy to cover the taste up.

634
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 2: And I don't think milk of magnesia. I haven't had

635
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: that in a long time, but I don't remember it

636
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 2: self tasting very good, so maybe that is a smart

637
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: way to mask it. Also, you know, I don't know

638
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: what if it does taste bad. So the toxicologist who

639
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: worked this case in the nineteen fifties was really impressed

640
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 2: with the police. She said that they brought me fifty

641
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: two items for analysis, everything from food to medicine. And

642
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 2: she said that at the Georgia Police Academy they told

643
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 2: the officers to always get the contents of the garbage can,

644
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: and so they did, and one officer brought her a

645
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: bottle of milk of magnesia to analyze, and of course

646
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: it was loaded with arsenic. Here's the problem, Roberta says,

647
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: I didn't do any of this, and they cannot find

648
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: one person who saw her do anything that indicated she

649
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,959
Speaker 2: was putting this pink powder into people's food. And there

650
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 2: were people who had access to all of this stuff,

651
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: you know, the food in the kitchen, preparing stuff. They

652
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: were really having a hard time figuring out how to

653
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: make this case work because there was no proof that

654
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 2: she was the one who did this.

655
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 3: Oh right or no?

656
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 1: You think this would have been a slam dunk.

657
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: Now, well, there's a pattern, There is an obvious pattern.

658
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 3: You know, this pattern is circumstantial evidence for sure. Yes,

659
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 3: you would like to be able to get a witness

660
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 3: of seeing her. Yeah, she was dumping rat poison into

661
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 3: milk of magnesia, But in poisoning cases you never get

662
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 3: to that kind of observation. Right, These poisoners are doing

663
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 3: it in secret and then hiding this. You know, that's

664
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: it's a very tough witness based case. But circumstances are there?

665
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 3: Physical evidence is there? Out of her trash can, there's

666
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 3: milk of magnesia that's loaded with arsenic I think a

667
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: reasonably competent prosecutor would be able to walk this case.

668
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 3: You know, charge it and just walk it in front

669
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 3: of the jury and get a conviction without much much trouble.

670
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you.

671
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: They start finding out that she's taken life insurance policies

672
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 2: out on everybody, and they exhume the bodies of Fannie

673
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: May and Annie Pearl, the fifteen year old and the

674
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: nine year old, and there are trace amounts of arsenic

675
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: found in their hair and their skin tissues. And the

676
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: three children who survived, who all say, Dorothy Viola and

677
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: William Junior all said we have felt sick in the past.

678
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: They were all treated for arsenic exposure because she had

679
00:40:54,800 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 2: been slowly poisoning them. Also, it's just really, I mean,

680
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: this is an unbelievable story. And so you know she's

681
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 2: collected all this money. Now you go ahead and tell

682
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: me what you were going to say, and then I've

683
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: got some more information about motive.

684
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know the fact that on these Ezoom bodies,

685
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: you know, they're finding arsenic within the hair, and this

686
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 3: is where you know, working with a good toxicologist. You know,

687
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 3: the thing that comes to my mind is that you know,

688
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 3: of course, like with you, you have long hair, well,

689
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: the hair that started growing out of your scalp years

690
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 3: ago isn't going to have arsenic in it. It's going

691
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 3: to be the hair that has been growing since you've

692
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 3: had the exposure. So by taking the length of hair

693
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: and segmenting it from basically scalp towards the end, you

694
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 3: can determine how long the person was exposed to arsenic.

695
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: So this would be something today that I'd be asking

696
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: a toxicologist can we do this? Is this true? And

697
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 3: if I can show, Oh, the children have hair, you

698
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 3: know that's from the distal end though you know it's

699
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: been out there from a time frame prior to them

700
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 3: moving into the house with Roberta, and then all of

701
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: a sudden, the hair that's grown out from the scalp

702
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 3: after they've moved into the house with Roberta has arsenic

703
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 3: in it. Now I've got a timeline based on science,

704
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: based on physical evidence.

705
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you a little bit more about motive.

706
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: This is really interesting.

707
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: Roberta was a treasurer for a local chapter of an

708
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 2: organization called the Heroines of Jericho, which is a fraternal organization.

709
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: She was a treasurer, which seems like now, of course hindsight,

710
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 2: it's a bad idea. She was being accused of misplacing

711
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: a fairly large sum of money in that role of treasurer,

712
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 2: and it sounds like that would have been the motive

713
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: that she was going to have to repay this back.

714
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: And you know, but she's been doing this for decades.

715
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 2: But money is obviously a thing for Roberta. I have

716
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: not read what she spent it on. I have not

717
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: read about a lavish lifestyle. I don't know what she

718
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: spent it on. But she was going after money, for sure.

719
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, financially motivated, but with the volume of cases, it

720
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 3: seems like there may be more than just financial motivation

721
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 3: with her. This is where she actually enjoys the process,

722
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 3: the getting away with the crime, possibly the power that

723
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: she has over these victims. You know, there may be

724
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 3: that psychological gratification she's getting by committing these crimes, but

725
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 3: of course she wants to also get the financial assets.

726
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: You know.

727
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: Ultimately she goes on trial, she pleads not guilty, She says,

728
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: I didn't do any of this. Not surprisingly, she is

729
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 2: convicted and sentenced to life in prison. She never ever

730
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: admits that she did anything wrong, never to anybody. And

731
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 2: you know, this is arguably a circumstantial case. I know

732
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 2: it's strong, circumstantial evidence, but she keeps her mouth shut

733
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: for the rest of her life. And what's interesting about

734
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: this story is I think the details are really compelling.

735
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 2: I had never heard of this case before. I mean ten,

736
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 2: nine to ten people, I said at least ten, because

737
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: I don't know about the children, the two little kids

738
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 2: that she had earlier.

739
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: You know, we don't know.

740
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 2: So why do you think that this case fell under

741
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: the radar of even the black press to a certain extent.

742
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 3: I'm not really sure, like in this particular case, why

743
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 3: it didn't get the attention of the public. First. It

744
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 3: may be due to her race and the victim's race.

745
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 3: Who becomes infamous as a serial predator, serial killer that's

746
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 3: driven by the media, that's not driven by, for example,

747
00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 3: law enforcement. The media are going to cover cases which

748
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 3: is going to have sort of wide appeal, and that

749
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,720
Speaker 3: may be part of it is that the major media

750
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 3: in the area didn't think that telling the story of

751
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 3: these victims and that the story of Roberta was going

752
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 3: to be something that there would have been readers would

753
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 3: have really glommed onto. It's kind of over the decades,

754
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 3: with the various cases I've been involved with or aware of.

755
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 3: As to which cases seem to become popular or not.

756
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 3: It's fickle. Yeah, there's cases. As an example, you know,

757
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 3: Eastere a rapist, received some public attention during the time

758
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 3: that those crimes were being committed, but very quickly was

759
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 3: forgotten about. You know, That's why it was such a huge,

760
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 3: high publicity case when all of a sudden, Michelle McNamar

761
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 3: renames Easter a rapist, Golden State killer, and then everybody's going,

762
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 3: what is this? You know, what is this huge case

763
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 3: that we didn't know about before? You know, I've got

764
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 3: cases that I think are just absolutely fascinating cases or

765
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: the public should know about, and the media just goes no,

766
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 3: not interested. I just don't know.

767
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: Well, you look at Samuel Little, you know, a prolific

768
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 2: serial killer, and I don't see tons of Netflix and

769
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: Hulu stuff about him. I don't know if I've seen

770
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 2: anything as a matter of fact about Samuel Little.

771
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 3: I'm sorry to interrupt, but this goes towards well, who

772
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 3: are his victims?

773
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: Right?

774
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 3: His victims are out of lower income, impoverished, not all black,

775
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 3: but sex workers. And one of the things that, like

776
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 3: what I've seen on the media, you know, let's say

777
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 3: on the TV side, they shy away from telling those

778
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 3: stories because the average consumer of true crime looks at

779
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 3: that victim and says, well, I don't do that work,

780
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 3: I don't put myself in that environment, and they don't

781
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: relate to that victim. It's just like, how come you know,

782
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 3: when you have all these men in gangs that are

783
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 3: being killed. Oftentimes it's a single sentence, you know, in

784
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 3: the newspaper on a website about it happening. Well, the

785
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 3: people who are reading go, well, I'm not in a gang.

786
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 3: That's never going to happen to me. So these victims

787
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 3: aren't relatable to the people who are actually the consumers

788
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 3: of the media side. And that's where I'm guessing with

789
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 3: Roberta's case and all those victims, the consumers of the

790
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 3: media you know that's covering or at least aware of

791
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 3: that case. The media is going, well, our readership is

792
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 3: not going to be interested in this, so we're not

793
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 3: going to put it out there. And it's tragic because

794
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 3: now this is where you have these victims that have

795
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: just been forgotten.

796
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 1: Yep.

797
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 2: And then I think you can have an instance where

798
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: something so bizarre happens that it supersedes that like a

799
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Dolmer, which his victims were people of color. They were,

800
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: you know, people living the stupidest phrase ever, the alternative lifestyle.

801
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: And look what happens.

802
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 2: The police didn't give a crap about those victims either,

803
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 2: until we find out what a horrific person Jeffrey Delmer

804
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 2: was and what he did, and then all of a sudden,

805
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 2: the story is huge and he becomes infamous based on

806
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: how sick he was.

807
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 1: Do you think that's the case?

808
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: Oh?

809
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, with Dahmer, that most certainly was the case.

810
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 3: It wasn't you know, the early reporting was not victim centric.

811
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 3: It was the gruesomeness of the crimes, the cannibalism that

812
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 3: he was doing, the ritualistic aspect, trying to create the zombies.

813
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 3: You know, it was such an unusual case, but there

814
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: wasn't any attention based on Okay, who were his victims. Again,

815
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 3: this is something that the media drives, and I know

816
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 3: there's been sum attempt by the media to correct that,

817
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 3: but it's still to this day going to be what

818
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: the media thinks will sell.

819
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry about that. Speaking as someone who's in the media.

820
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 2: Sorry, I apologize on behalf of all of us.

821
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: Well, what a story.

822
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 2: And I am interested because I feel like Roberta really

823
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: in some ways might have benefited from her race. It

824
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 2: could have been from being black, because maybe she was

825
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 2: overlooked by white police. I mean, for a very very

826
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 2: long time, nobody even thought that these were murders. I mean,

827
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 2: to have that many people in your family die. I

828
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 2: don't know what happened there, but anyway, it's a fascinating case.

829
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 2: I sometimes am baffled by the reaction that the police have,

830
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: but it's hindsight is twenty twenty.

831
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: What are you going to do? This is the nineteen fifties,

832
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: and they're going.

833
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: Off of what they believe a killer slash serial killer

834
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: would look like and act like. And she did not

835
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: know don't fit the bill for them.

836
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, now, somebody dropped the ball along the way. There

837
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 3: should there should have been some observation of this pattern

838
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 3: occurring well before it got up to nine or ten victims.

839
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 1: I agree.

840
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: Well, again, thank you for all the effort and telling

841
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 3: this this horrible story, and and you know it's good

842
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 3: that you brought attention to it.

843
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'll see you next week.

844
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 3: Sounds good.

845
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly Right production.

846
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

847
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones Sources.

848
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

849
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, ali Elkin, Kate Winkler Dawson.

850
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

851
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

852
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

853
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

854
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

855
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Speaker 2: ary Bones pod.

856
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Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

857
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Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

858
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Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

859
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860
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