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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Todd Barretts knew exactly how his boyfriend should be

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Speaker 1: treating him. The right standards were very clear. They'd been

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Speaker 1: set out in all the fairy tales and Hollywood rom

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Speaker 1: coms that he'd grown up with.

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Speaker 2: I had certain expectations for how he should be treating me.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking, well, he should just be asking me

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Speaker 2: how my day was. He should just be doing these things.

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Speaker 2: And the reality is that it's a much more complicated

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Speaker 2: dynamic than that.

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Speaker 1: Many of us share this kind of naive view of relationships.

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Speaker 1: We expect near perfection from our romantic partners and assume

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Speaker 1: that accepting anything less would be settling. We want a

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Speaker 1: soulmate who understands us, a rock who supports us in

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Speaker 1: all we do, a therapist who heals us when we're hurt,

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Speaker 1: and a lover who fulfills all our desires and makes

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Speaker 1: us feel incredibly attractive.

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Speaker 2: These rules, these lists, they're infiltrating our relationships from day

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Speaker 2: one to These are things that we've internalized, and they

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Speaker 2: become indistinguishable from our voice compared to our culture's voice.

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Speaker 2: They just feel like absolute truths.

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Speaker 1: The eventual collapse of Todd's ten year relationship was a

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Speaker 1: wake up call. Todd had been demanding way too much

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Speaker 1: from his boyfriend. It was more than any real person

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Speaker 1: could reasonably deliver, So Todd decided to recalibrate in his

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Speaker 1: future relationships. Sure he'd be thrilled if he met the

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Speaker 1: perfect partner, but he'd also be okay with a kind,

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Speaker 1: yet fallible and flawed human. He was ready to find

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Speaker 1: a partner who is simply good enough. But Todd says

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Speaker 1: this isn't just a personal decision, it's advice he wants

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Speaker 1: us all to consider. You see Todd Barrett's as a

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Speaker 1: sex and relationships therapist. He's also the author of How

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Speaker 1: to Love Someone Without Losing Your Mind. In his practice,

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Speaker 1: Todd sees countless couples tearing themselves and their relationships apart

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Speaker 1: thanks to impossibly high expectations. So in this final episode

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Speaker 1: of our season, Looking at Happiness and Love, we'll explore

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Speaker 1: how so many of us ended up becoming way too

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Speaker 1: demanding about what a partner should be, as well as

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Speaker 1: unwilling to accept the inevitable flaws that come with being human.

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Speaker 1: We'll also hear Todd's advice for finding not the perfect relationship,

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Speaker 1: but one that's just good enough Forget the fairy tale

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Speaker 1: and get real. That's the subtitle of Todd's new book.

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Speaker 1: In it, he makes the observation that we spend more

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Speaker 1: time as children learning to do long division than we

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Speaker 1: do learning to identify our emotions. The lack of social

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Speaker 1: and relational guidance in our culture is outrageous at best,

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Speaker 1: Todd explains, and harmful to survival at worst. Without the

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Speaker 1: right guidance, a lot of powerful ideas have bubbled up

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Speaker 1: to fill this void, romance, novels, TV shows, rom coms,

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Speaker 1: and now social media, and Todd says that these ideas

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Speaker 1: often create problems. All those listicles and memes convince us

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Speaker 1: we need to find a perfect partner and that we

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Speaker 1: ought to reject anyone with any potential flaw or defect.

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Speaker 2: The reality is that people don't have so many places

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Speaker 2: to go for relationship advice. You know, we primarily get

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Speaker 2: our relationship advice implicitly from our family and culture of origin. Oftentimes,

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Speaker 2: as I said, it's implicit. It's not like this is

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Speaker 2: how healthy relationships work. It's observational learning. It's experiential and emotional.

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Speaker 2: In school, we get absolutely no education. We don't get

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Speaker 2: good sex ed. We don't get relational ad it, we

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Speaker 2: don't get an emotional ad we don't get a human head.

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Speaker 2: But what's so interesting about the Instagram stuff, social media,

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Speaker 2: TikTok is that is actually the only places that people,

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Speaker 2: at least culturally in this moment, that we get information.

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Speaker 2: And that's the beginning of the problem. And you know,

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Speaker 2: some of the content's great, just like any TV film,

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Speaker 2: any kind of media. Some of it is good, some

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Speaker 2: of it is bad. But the biggest thing for me

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Speaker 2: that I would want people to really slow down with

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Speaker 2: how they're consuming the content and think deeper about it.

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Speaker 2: There is no nuance, there's no complexity. Often sometimes the

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Speaker 2: posts are literally black and white. We're looking at information

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Speaker 2: that's really lacking their context that gives life to information.

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Speaker 2: It's empty information really, and nothing can really be applied

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Speaker 2: without fully understanding the context, especially the therapeutic information and

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Speaker 2: psycho education that we are now seeing all of our

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Speaker 2: social media.

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Speaker 1: So, in my own kind of glimpses at what's going

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Speaker 1: on on TikTok and Instagram, my sense is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the language that people used to talk about

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Speaker 1: relationship seems to be really clinicalized. But clinicalized in this

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Speaker 1: way that maybe people are like getting wrong, you know,

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Speaker 1: So I'm thinking about terms like codependency and narcissism and gaslighting.

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Speaker 1: Is this something that you've noticed. Are there's spots where

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Speaker 1: some of these kind of online therapists might not be

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Speaker 1: getting exactly the clinical context, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean all of posts are marketing. So it's information,

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Speaker 2: but it's marketing. It's coming from a place that I

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Speaker 2: want you to read my content so you can subscribe

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Speaker 2: to my channel, and so I can monetize it in

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Speaker 2: one way or another. I mean, that's really what it is.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and that's fine. We live this is the

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Speaker 2: world we live in. But words like narcissism and toxic

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Speaker 2: gas lighter and toxic thiss and red flag and situationship

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Speaker 2: then even trauma, these words are trending, and so people

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Speaker 2: are often using these words to get people's interest, and

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Speaker 2: so oftentimes what happens is that things get really watered down.

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Speaker 2: And that's what we're saying is that, you know, these

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Speaker 2: terms are being watered down to apply to literally anything

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Speaker 2: at this point, any bad behavior, any sign of dependence.

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Speaker 2: And to me, what it does is that it increases

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Speaker 2: people's anxiety because it keeps us on alert, and it

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Speaker 2: keeps us hyper vigilant to be looking out for certain

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Speaker 2: signs certain behavior, as opposed to better understanding ourselves. So

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Speaker 2: I think that yes, we might want to know some

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Speaker 2: of these terms, but the most important thing we can

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Speaker 2: do in our relationships and in our lives is not

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Speaker 2: diagnosed somebody is not look out for the top ten

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Speaker 2: red flags of a narcissist or if your person is toxic,

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Speaker 2: but to better understand ourselves. The content is training us

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Speaker 2: more to understand and analyze someone else's shitty behavior than

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Speaker 2: our own, and that's a problem.

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Speaker 1: It also really changes the standards that we bring to

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Speaker 1: kind of relationship shopping. Right, If we're kind of looking

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Speaker 1: for all these red flags, it seems like we see

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Speaker 1: our job as kind of trying to suss out these

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Speaker 1: red flags in a way that probably makes the entire

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Speaker 1: dating landscape seem kind of terrifying. I mean, is this

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Speaker 1: something you've experienced with the people that you talk to

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Speaker 1: and that you work with as clients.

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Speaker 2: This shapes the entire experience of how we think about

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Speaker 2: even someone on an app, we have anything that you know,

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Speaker 2: I see individuals and I see couples with the individuals.

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Speaker 2: It's mostly is this person that I'm dating going to

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Speaker 2: be the wrong person for me? Are they going to

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Speaker 2: hurt me? And then most of the couples that I'm seeing,

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Speaker 2: you know, they have some kind of fear that they're

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Speaker 2: with the wrong person. So these expectations are literally physiologically

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Speaker 2: shaping the way we react and prime ourselves to experience

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Speaker 2: connection or rather what it is is really disconnection because

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Speaker 2: the more we are focused on the top ten lists

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Speaker 2: of what to look for, the less present we are,

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Speaker 2: and the less present we are, the less capable we

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Speaker 2: are of connecting. And the less capable we are being vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: and the less capable we are being vulnerable, the more

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Speaker 2: long we're going to feel.

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Speaker 1: And so how do we get in this position? Because

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Speaker 1: it seems like this is kind of something that seems

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Speaker 1: to be pretty new and like modern love, it seems

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Speaker 1: like we've kind of gone like really capitalist when it

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Speaker 1: comes to kind of thinking about love and thinking about dating,

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Speaker 1: Like how did we get here?

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Speaker 2: People have a variety of different theories, you know, going

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Speaker 2: from we're now really really independent and we stress independence

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Speaker 2: and we don't necessarily have to focus on marriage for survival.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's a whole historical basis for where love

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Speaker 2: is today, which is something I talk about in my book.

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Speaker 2: I interviewed my mom about love and what it was

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Speaker 2: like growing up for her, and for her it was

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Speaker 2: just get married by twenty one, have kids very soon.

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Speaker 2: She's like, red flags, What is that toxic? What is

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Speaker 2: that narcissism? She kind of had an idea, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't part of the relational discourse, whereas now it is.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's a good thing. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: don't think this is bad, but it's something that's full

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Speaker 2: of meaning that we need to understand better. So we're

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Speaker 2: not just on autopilot expecting certain things and discounting our

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Speaker 2: role in all of the dynamics we exist in.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like on top of of these kind

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Speaker 1: of new expectations we have for our partners, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of worried about red flags and trying to

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Speaker 1: sess them out. At the same time, it doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like our same high standards have been applied to like

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Speaker 1: our own behavior and kind of the way that we

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Speaker 1: bring ourselves to relationships. It seems like if anything like

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Speaker 1: those expectations have gone down, is that the sense you

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Speaker 1: get from kind of talking to your clients and engaging

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Speaker 1: with some of this work.

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Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting about that is that people have high

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Speaker 2: expectations of themselves and they're really really hard on themselves,

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Speaker 2: But when it comes to relational dynamics, most people are

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Speaker 2: particularly disconnected from that in terms of, you know, we

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Speaker 2: want a partner who will do certain things for us,

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Speaker 2: and in that focus, we fail to realize that how

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Speaker 2: we interact with them will determine whether or not they

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Speaker 2: do the things that we think they should be doing

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Speaker 2: for us. The interesting is that people want to put

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Speaker 2: in the work, but oftentimes people myself can feel so

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Speaker 2: convinced that it's not us. And people are resistant to

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Speaker 2: understanding the role that they play in relationships because it

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Speaker 2: touches upon a very vulnerable and scary place that we're limited,

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Speaker 2: that we have issues ourselves, that we are difficult to

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Speaker 2: be with, and that we play a role, a very

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Speaker 2: big role in our lives. But many of us default

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Speaker 2: to this place where we just want our partner to

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Speaker 2: rescue us and to do these certain things for us

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Speaker 2: to make us feel valued and validated. And there's another

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Speaker 2: trending word that drives me crazy. Validation. You know, we

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Speaker 2: expect our partners not to be their job without again

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Speaker 2: understanding the role we play. So people really want to

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Speaker 2: work hard, but they don't want to work hard unless

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Speaker 2: they think their partner is working hard in a similar

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Speaker 2: or same way. And they definitely don't want to work

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Speaker 2: hard if they think their.

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Speaker 1: Partner is to blame, which most people do.

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Speaker 2: Which most people do.

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Speaker 1: So you've really argued that we need to unlearn some

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Speaker 1: of these rules that we've been getting from modern love,

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Speaker 1: that the act of unlearning these rules and coming up

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Speaker 1: with new ones can help us do better. And one

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Speaker 1: of the rules you talked about is this idea that

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Speaker 1: we really need our partners to change. When we look

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Speaker 1: at relationships, I think there's this idea like, oh, if

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Speaker 1: only my partner could do X, Y and Z, or

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Speaker 1: if only this person you know, I just started dating,

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Speaker 1: would you do this sort of thing and everything would

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Speaker 1: be better? Talk about why our partner's changing isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: the best answer to our relationship woes.

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Speaker 2: One. I mean, it's a prison. If we say that

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Speaker 2: someone else needs to do something in order for us

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Speaker 2: to be happy, that's a pretty scary, powerless place to be.

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Speaker 2: And that's the parallel to childhood, you know, where we

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Speaker 2: needed our parents to do something specific for us and

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Speaker 2: that was the reality in order for us to be happy.

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Speaker 2: But adult partnership is a completely different ballgame than early

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Speaker 2: childhood attachment. You know, when we're responding to our partners

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Speaker 2: not doing something for us, we're responding to our dynamic

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Speaker 2: that we are integral into, shaping and creating and eliciting

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Speaker 2: the reaction from our partner that we want them to

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Speaker 2: be doing. But it's a big piece of the book,

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Speaker 2: which is I say, you know, in many other therapists

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Speaker 2: and people say, you know, change yourself first, you know,

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Speaker 2: stop trying to get your partner to change, and work

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Speaker 2: on changing yourself. And most people hate that because they're

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Speaker 2: like in the self righteous place of I didn't do this,

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Speaker 2: they should be doing this. I deserve, I'm entitled to whatever.

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Speaker 2: It can be really hard to think except and understand

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Speaker 2: that if we can make change that can have an

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Speaker 2: impact on a relationship, that we actually have more power

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Speaker 2: in our adult partnerships than our reflexes might be telling us.

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Speaker 1: And so one of the forms of that change that

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Speaker 1: you really advocate is that we need to look back

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Speaker 1: at our past to really understand where our current tendencies

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Speaker 1: are coming from. You've argued that we need to explore

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Speaker 1: our emotional ghosts. So what are emotional ghosts and why

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Speaker 1: do we need to explore them so much?

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Speaker 2: Emotional ghosts are basically any historical experience that was traumatic, hard, challenging,

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Speaker 2: whatever that's left to mark, that's left a wound that's

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Speaker 2: been a big part of your story. A lot of

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Speaker 2: our needs and relationships come from never receiving those needs

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Speaker 2: due to trauma and neglect, abandonment, to lack of nourishment

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Speaker 2: from parents, etc. And their emotional ghosts, and they're with us,

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Speaker 2: and those are the things that will come to shape

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Speaker 2: our relational dynamics as adults, like literally will shape them.

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Speaker 2: And it's important to become aware of that because oftentimes

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Speaker 2: what gets mixed up and our own emotional ghosts is

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Speaker 2: again that my partner is doing this when it's usually both,

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Speaker 2: it's usually some version of our attachment trauma, our earlier

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Speaker 2: experiences in our family of origin. These emotional ghosts, these triggers, wounds,

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Speaker 2: et cetera that are coming up in the president of

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Speaker 2: a dynamic that feels very similar to what we grew

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Speaker 2: up with. That doesn't mean our partner is in doing

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Speaker 2: something they usually are, but the power with which we

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Speaker 2: respond is coming from these earlier scary ghosts.

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Speaker 1: I know this is something that you navigated with your

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Speaker 1: relationship with Alex. Would you talk a lot about in

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Speaker 1: your practice and in your book. So maybe first off,

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Speaker 1: who is Alex and where are some spots where in

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Speaker 1: that relationship these emotional ghosts came up?

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Speaker 2: A relationship ended about like six years ago, which is wild.

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Speaker 2: We were together for ten years. You know, huge learning

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Speaker 2: experience in my life, but like it was really hard

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Speaker 2: for me to acknowledge, even though my therapist was saying, Todd,

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Speaker 2: this is about you know your father. But even when

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Speaker 2: being told about this, I was like, no, Elks should

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Speaker 2: be doing this. He's limited in this way. While you know,

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Speaker 2: I was convinced, and on the one hand, I wasn't

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Speaker 2: wrong with the way that I was seeing in the

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Speaker 2: perspective that I was or that I had of him

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Speaker 2: was based on my earlier experiences. Now I know that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I had wanted him to do certain things

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Speaker 2: that I actually didn't need him to do in terms

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Speaker 2: of the emotional caretaking that I was expecting. And you know,

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Speaker 2: these are things that I could have done of my

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Speaker 2: own as an adult in.

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Speaker 1: Our quest to sort of figure out our emotional ghosts.

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Speaker 1: You actually have a practical suggestion that I found quite striking,

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Speaker 1: which is that we need to dig into the past

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Speaker 1: a little bit more, and that might really involve talking

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Speaker 1: to the people who often make up the situations that

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Speaker 1: cause our emotional ghosts aamely, our parents. So talk to

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Speaker 1: me about this advice and what you did in your

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Speaker 1: situation and why it can be so powerful for kind

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Speaker 1: of digging up those things that are from the past

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Speaker 1: that might be affecting us so.

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Speaker 2: Much a big part of our story. We can't fully

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Speaker 2: know it without fully knowing our parents and our history

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Speaker 2: and our generational stories and our ancestors and as much

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Speaker 2: as information as we can possibly get. So what I

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Speaker 2: did was I interviewed my mom. I asked and my dad.

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Speaker 2: I asked them both a lot of questions about what

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Speaker 2: love was like, what dating was like, what growing up

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Speaker 2: was like, what their parents were like, what their relationships

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Speaker 2: were like, you know. And what I found was that,

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of their experiences paralleled what I

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Speaker 2: went through with them in terms of maybe some of

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Speaker 2: the neglect that I felt and I was neglected by

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Speaker 2: my parents, and then when I talk to them about

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Speaker 2: their story, the neglect that they experienced and weren't even

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Speaker 2: able to acknowledge. And then when I asked about their

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Speaker 2: parents and their grandparents, I mean, it was literal war

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Speaker 2: and death. So oftentimes our stories have real, real intergenerational basis,

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Speaker 2: and we can't fully understand ourselves and our relationships without

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Speaker 2: fully understanding that. The challenge with some of these interviews

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Speaker 2: and interactions with their parents is they don't want to

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Speaker 2: talk about it. Sometimes I push a lot of my

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Speaker 2: clients to do this and they say they do and

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Speaker 2: their parents will only talk about the positive relationships they

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Speaker 2: had despite their parents having a lot of emotional problems.

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Speaker 2: So the challenge with some of these generational traumas is

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Speaker 2: they've been kept inter repts and sometimes if we ask

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Speaker 2: our parents, they may also continue to do that. But

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Speaker 2: it's really important and I would really encourage anyone if

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Speaker 2: their parent is still alive, their grandparents is still alive,

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Speaker 2: to write out a set of questions and it's not

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Speaker 2: an interrogation, it's not therapy, it's an interview, and to

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Speaker 2: ask questions about you know, what was love like for you?

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Speaker 2: What was independence like for you? What was affection like

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Speaker 2: for you? What were the expectations you had? Were your

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Speaker 2: parents present, did they have a drinking problem, did they

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Speaker 2: do drugs? Did anybody die? Were there any relational breaks

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Speaker 2: early on? You know all of this stuff because you

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Speaker 2: can really learn a lot about yourself, and you can

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Speaker 2: humanize your parents, which is a really big piece of

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Speaker 2: this story, because as we talk and learn about our

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Speaker 2: own early traumas with our parents, we can often view

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Speaker 2: them as our perpetrators, which sometimes they are, or as

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Speaker 2: the people who didn't give us this thing and who

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Speaker 2: deeply hurt us, and all of that, which can be true.

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Speaker 2: But the other side of that story is that they're

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Speaker 2: human beings who had very very deep stories just like ours,

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Speaker 2: and experienced challenges and or the way they are for

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Speaker 2: a reason, and so if we can understand that reason,

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Speaker 2: it really can help to humanize them and connect with

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Speaker 2: them as a human being rather than this person who

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Speaker 2: mistreated us when we were ten or fifteen or didn't

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Speaker 2: give us what they should have given us. I really

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Speaker 2: encourage people to do it.

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Speaker 1: So understanding our own stories and those of our parents

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Speaker 1: and grandparents can be an important first step in finding

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Speaker 1: greater stability in our romantic relationships, but Todd says there

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Speaker 1: are also some narratives that we need to better understand

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Speaker 1: and challenge, specifically our persistent myths about fairy tale romance.

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Speaker 1: We'll hear more after a quick break. Sex and relationship

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Speaker 1: therapist Todd Barrett's sees many clients who began their idea

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Speaker 1: of romance as kids from reading the usual Happily Ever

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Speaker 1: After fairy tales. Todd writes in his book, people date

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Speaker 1: with the goal of finding their perfect match, the one

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Speaker 1: we all want somewhat special, but our ideas of the

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Speaker 1: one can get kind of extreme. The one has to

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Speaker 1: be one hundred percent emotionally available, stable, healed through years

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Speaker 1: of past therapy, and able to communicate. They've got to

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Speaker 1: be motivated, funny, growth oriented, and mature. They've got to

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Speaker 1: have a good job and impeccable taste. Gotta love travel

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Speaker 1: and dogs, plus be in shape, oh, and a foodie,

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Speaker 1: and have no imperfections or red flags whatsoever, just chemistry,

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Speaker 1: connection and love it for a site. Oddly enough, in

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Speaker 1: his youth, Todd felt a bit detached from these expectations.

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Speaker 2: Growing up gay in the nineties. You know, the idea

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Speaker 2: of the one and being with someone forever wasn't really

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Speaker 2: on my radar.

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Speaker 1: But after the painful end of his ten year relationship,

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Speaker 1: Todd unhappily found himself back in the dating pool and

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Speaker 1: searching for that perfect meat.

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Speaker 2: It'd be so great to just find one person to

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Speaker 2: be done with it, and you know, not to have

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Speaker 2: to worry that that ever again. But the reality is

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Speaker 2: that relationships are ending. People get divorced. This is the thing,

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Speaker 2: and it's normal and it's okay. I do see that

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Speaker 2: as kind of the biggest problem and the biggest part

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Speaker 2: of the fairy tale that we need to let go

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Speaker 2: is the idea of happily ever after, the one where

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Speaker 2: everything is just going to work. It doesn't exist, It

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Speaker 2: really doesn't, and it really ends up just adding anxiety

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Speaker 2: to dates and to our relationships.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with the idea of how we can

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Speaker 1: overcome this idea of the one. You had this lovely

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Speaker 1: practical suggestion that I've heard you mentioned before, which is

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Speaker 1: that we need to sort of switch what we're doing

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Speaker 1: in the search for the one You're Rather than getting

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Speaker 1: all anxious, we need to get a little bit more curious.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by getting curious?

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Speaker 2: Curious about who the other person is, curious about who

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Speaker 2: we are when we're with them. I try to reframe

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Speaker 2: dating not in terms of who we can find, more

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Speaker 2: so what we can find out taking it one singular date, experience,

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Speaker 2: conversation at a time. You know, the power of being

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Speaker 2: present might sound cliche, but it's really important, especially when

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Speaker 2: it comes to relationships and getting to know somebody. If

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Speaker 2: your mind is are they going to satisfy me in

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Speaker 2: twenty years? If your mind is there on day two,

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Speaker 2: you're not going to be seeing them as who they are.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to be learning about them, and you're

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Speaker 2: not giving yourself the opportunity to let them get to

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Speaker 2: know you. But this is what we grew up with.

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Speaker 2: This is what we see in movies. You know that

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Speaker 2: people are together forever, and there are certain things to

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Speaker 2: look for that may not fit that criteria.

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Speaker 1: You had this term that I love normal marital hate

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Speaker 1: that you talk about. You get an example with your

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Speaker 1: dog that I love.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that is Terry real. It was a quote of

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Speaker 2: Terry Reel's book Us Normal Marital Hate. Great line. Everyone

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Speaker 2: is intolerable to an extent, everyone is going to disappoint us.

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Speaker 2: Everyone is going to annoy us. I talk about my dog,

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Speaker 2: and even my dog who's so cute. Her name is Ellie.

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Speaker 2: She's a kavapoo and all she wants to do is cuddle,

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Speaker 2: but she's really annoying sometimes and sometimes I just want

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Speaker 2: her to leave me alone. And our partner, no matter

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Speaker 2: how cute and sweet they are, they're going to get

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Speaker 2: on our nerves. They're going to disappoint us. Happily ever

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Speaker 2: after just you know, unfortunately, it's not a thing, and

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Speaker 2: it's a really big disappointment. And the challenges is really

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Speaker 2: learning how to embrace our partner's limitations and honor them

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Speaker 2: and understand them as a human being without seeing those limitations, disappointments,

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Speaker 2: frustrations as a way to understand them as a whole.

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Speaker 2: Everyone is a little disappointing, including myself.

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Speaker 1: You talk times about this idea of the good enough

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Speaker 1: relationship or the good enough marriage. What do you mean

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Speaker 1: by good enough here? And how can we find that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? People hate that. Whenever I post about that on Instagram,

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Speaker 2: people come for me. But yeah, something that's good enough

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Speaker 2: I mean, And this applies to practically everything in our life.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for a house now, and I'm like, but

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Speaker 2: I want this and this, and meanwhile, I live in

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Speaker 2: New York City and nothing is going to be what

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Speaker 2: I want it to be. But we're talking about relationships

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Speaker 2: so good enough meaning, you know, we don't need one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent. We don't need our partners to be perfect.

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Speaker 2: We need them to be there for us most of

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Speaker 2: the time. We need a relationship that's good enough. And

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Speaker 2: good enough includes limitations, problems, fights, conflicts. That doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: an unhealthy relationship. It doesn't mean an abusive relationship. It

433
00:20:52,316 --> 00:20:55,276
Speaker 2: just means a relationship that's mostly satisfying. Part of the

434
00:20:55,276 --> 00:20:57,276
Speaker 2: fairy tale is that we will find a relationship that's

435
00:20:57,276 --> 00:21:00,276
Speaker 2: fully satisfying, that doesn't require work, and that you're entitled

436
00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:01,756
Speaker 2: to a love that dot dot dot. You know, I

437
00:21:01,796 --> 00:21:04,036
Speaker 2: see so many means like that. The reality is is

438
00:21:04,396 --> 00:21:06,836
Speaker 2: no one's really entitled to anything when it comes to

439
00:21:07,076 --> 00:21:11,156
Speaker 2: love in that sense, because it's hard work. We can't

440
00:21:11,196 --> 00:21:13,836
Speaker 2: just sit there and have these things appear. We have

441
00:21:13,916 --> 00:21:15,636
Speaker 2: to do the work. And part of that work is

442
00:21:15,876 --> 00:21:19,876
Speaker 2: tolerance and forgiveness and forgiving ourselves and forgiving our partners.

443
00:21:19,916 --> 00:21:22,556
Speaker 2: And it's really, really hard and can be disappointing.

444
00:21:22,796 --> 00:21:24,396
Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you get pushed back for this

445
00:21:24,476 --> 00:21:26,316
Speaker 1: idea of the good enough relationship. And it kind of

446
00:21:26,316 --> 00:21:28,956
Speaker 1: makes sense given how much we push people these days

447
00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:31,316
Speaker 1: never to settle. But my sense is like this is

448
00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:33,316
Speaker 1: also a new thing about modern love that we're so

449
00:21:33,396 --> 00:21:35,756
Speaker 1: obsessed with not settling. This isn't the way our parents

450
00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:37,196
Speaker 1: dealt with it, right, I mean, like.

451
00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:39,396
Speaker 2: I was telling you with my mother in her interview,

452
00:21:39,796 --> 00:21:42,716
Speaker 2: she settled, and you know, she chose somebody that was

453
00:21:42,756 --> 00:21:46,156
Speaker 2: extremely abusive, but because culturally, you know, as a woman

454
00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:49,516
Speaker 2: in the fifties, she was told to stay, told to

455
00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:52,036
Speaker 2: get married, and told to settle no matter what, for

456
00:21:52,076 --> 00:21:54,396
Speaker 2: a sense of security and because family was the most

457
00:21:54,436 --> 00:21:57,356
Speaker 2: important thing. And so I do think that this pendulum

458
00:21:57,396 --> 00:22:00,396
Speaker 2: having swung to the exact opposite direction of never settle,

459
00:22:00,596 --> 00:22:03,116
Speaker 2: is due to you know, a lot of intergenerational trauma

460
00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:06,316
Speaker 2: where we've come from parents or grandparents or histories where

461
00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:08,756
Speaker 2: people were really hurt and we're told to settle because

462
00:22:08,756 --> 00:22:11,516
Speaker 2: that was the cultural narrative. Settle down. You know, that's

463
00:22:11,516 --> 00:22:14,276
Speaker 2: what people were told. And now you know, the pendulum

464
00:22:14,356 --> 00:22:16,436
Speaker 2: is from the other direction. And I'm not suggesting that

465
00:22:16,476 --> 00:22:19,156
Speaker 2: it's wrong. I'm just suggesting that we should take that

466
00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:21,076
Speaker 2: pendulum and put it a little bit in the middle.

467
00:22:21,276 --> 00:22:23,516
Speaker 2: You know, the only way we learn about ourselves in

468
00:22:23,556 --> 00:22:26,316
Speaker 2: relationships is by being in them. And so if we're

469
00:22:26,356 --> 00:22:29,516
Speaker 2: constantly waiting for this perfect person, one they don't exist,

470
00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:32,396
Speaker 2: but two we don't get the opportunity to one have

471
00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:35,276
Speaker 2: a relationship, experience attachment and love, but to really learn

472
00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:37,036
Speaker 2: about what it is that we want in the first place.

473
00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:38,756
Speaker 2: So what I think is more important is for people

474
00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:40,676
Speaker 2: to settle down, but not to settle down for a

475
00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:43,316
Speaker 2: shitty relationship, but to settle down with somebody that's good

476
00:22:43,436 --> 00:22:45,516
Speaker 2: enough and to see what you can develop and to

477
00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:47,276
Speaker 2: see what the connection is like, and to see what

478
00:22:47,356 --> 00:22:49,276
Speaker 2: happens when you have conflict and to work through that.

479
00:22:49,636 --> 00:22:52,316
Speaker 2: And also what's important is to end a relationship. I

480
00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:54,796
Speaker 2: do believe that having the experience of being able to

481
00:22:54,956 --> 00:22:57,356
Speaker 2: have a relational ending at least once in your life

482
00:22:57,476 --> 00:23:00,116
Speaker 2: is a very important experience to have in terms of

483
00:23:00,116 --> 00:23:03,356
Speaker 2: personal growth, self awareness, and development, at least for me

484
00:23:03,596 --> 00:23:06,116
Speaker 2: and a lot of my clients. A big, big problem

485
00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:09,076
Speaker 2: with the fairy tale relationship is when it comes to endings.

486
00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:11,916
Speaker 2: Relational endings. So people think they should last forever, and

487
00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:14,596
Speaker 2: when they don't, they failed, They blame their partner, they

488
00:23:14,596 --> 00:23:18,036
Speaker 2: blame themselves. People often don't think about creation laws. When

489
00:23:18,076 --> 00:23:20,116
Speaker 2: people do get to the end of a relationship, they

490
00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:22,236
Speaker 2: think it should just feel like a hiccup or a sneeze,

491
00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:24,436
Speaker 2: and then they decide to end it. When the reality

492
00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:26,836
Speaker 2: of relational endings is so much further from what we

493
00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:28,916
Speaker 2: see in a rom com and what we see in

494
00:23:28,956 --> 00:23:32,036
Speaker 2: some of these expectations on Instagram, you know, in terms,

495
00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:34,796
Speaker 2: cut them out, go on a trip, get back to yourself,

496
00:23:35,116 --> 00:23:37,956
Speaker 2: be single on purpose, get to know yourself better. That's

497
00:23:37,996 --> 00:23:41,156
Speaker 2: the model for relational endings that we see. We celebrate

498
00:23:41,236 --> 00:23:45,036
Speaker 2: love and we totally avoid the topic of any kind

499
00:23:45,076 --> 00:23:49,796
Speaker 2: of relational ending, including pain, ambivalence, regret, years of hard work,

500
00:23:49,876 --> 00:23:52,356
Speaker 2: and tears. You know, we often think about a relational

501
00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:54,516
Speaker 2: ending as on this day, I decided I wanted to

502
00:23:54,636 --> 00:23:56,716
Speaker 2: end my relationship, and then next week I'm going to

503
00:23:56,716 --> 00:23:59,036
Speaker 2: go on a vacation by myself. I'm going to do yoga,

504
00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:00,996
Speaker 2: and then I'm not going to start dating for another

505
00:24:01,036 --> 00:24:03,316
Speaker 2: three to six months until I'm healed, and then I'm

506
00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:05,596
Speaker 2: going to start dating again. And I'm going to look

507
00:24:05,636 --> 00:24:08,596
Speaker 2: for someone who fits these criteria with no red flags.

508
00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:11,356
Speaker 2: Like my top it gets and it is nothing like that.

509
00:24:11,596 --> 00:24:13,476
Speaker 2: You know, when I ended my relationship, it was a

510
00:24:13,516 --> 00:24:15,436
Speaker 2: horror show. You know, no one prepares us for what

511
00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:17,716
Speaker 2: it's like when you think about yourself as someone who's

512
00:24:17,716 --> 00:24:20,276
Speaker 2: a wee, and even the language is different. So, you know,

513
00:24:20,316 --> 00:24:22,796
Speaker 2: I think the fairy tale about the way relationships begin,

514
00:24:23,156 --> 00:24:25,076
Speaker 2: the way that they feel, and the way that they

515
00:24:25,276 --> 00:24:28,596
Speaker 2: end infiltrated the way we experience and expect love to feel.

516
00:24:28,716 --> 00:24:31,316
Speaker 2: It's a real challenge because it just creates more shame,

517
00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:34,836
Speaker 2: more anxiety, more confusion, and in that space prevents us

518
00:24:34,876 --> 00:24:37,356
Speaker 2: from fully understanding ourselves, which is really what we need

519
00:24:37,396 --> 00:24:39,356
Speaker 2: in the beginning, middle, and end of a relationship. It's

520
00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:43,036
Speaker 2: self understanding, self compassion, empathy. So the fairy tale I

521
00:24:43,076 --> 00:24:46,236
Speaker 2: see as this kind of black or white portrait of love,

522
00:24:46,356 --> 00:24:49,276
Speaker 2: and it doesn't fit whether we're talking about the beginning, middle,

523
00:24:49,316 --> 00:24:50,316
Speaker 2: or end of a relationship.

524
00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:52,436
Speaker 1: And this gets to another rule that I think we

525
00:24:52,516 --> 00:24:55,516
Speaker 1: need to unlearn, which is this idea of manifesting. You know,

526
00:24:55,516 --> 00:24:57,716
Speaker 1: when I look on Instagram and TikTok, I think there's

527
00:24:57,756 --> 00:24:59,956
Speaker 1: this idea that like I'm just going to manifest the

528
00:24:59,996 --> 00:25:03,316
Speaker 1: perfect relationship as if it doesn't require any work at all.

529
00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:06,276
Speaker 1: Talk about why we need to overcome this idea of manifesting.

530
00:25:06,556 --> 00:25:09,076
Speaker 2: Manifestation plays a really big role for a lot of people,

531
00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:10,836
Speaker 2: and it's I don't want to say it's worked for them,

532
00:25:10,876 --> 00:25:14,436
Speaker 2: because I don't know what work means. I do believe though,

533
00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:17,236
Speaker 2: that you know, one piece of manifestation is the energy

534
00:25:17,276 --> 00:25:19,156
Speaker 2: we put out is the energy we get back. I

535
00:25:19,196 --> 00:25:21,396
Speaker 2: do believe in that, and that gets back to change

536
00:25:21,436 --> 00:25:23,636
Speaker 2: yourself and you change a relationship. You know, if we

537
00:25:23,676 --> 00:25:26,516
Speaker 2: are putting energy out with our partner that is non

538
00:25:26,556 --> 00:25:29,836
Speaker 2: critical and warm and kind and empathic, we're likely to

539
00:25:29,916 --> 00:25:32,916
Speaker 2: receive a similar response. But in terms of just magically

540
00:25:32,996 --> 00:25:36,876
Speaker 2: manifesting a partner, you know, that's not something that I

541
00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:39,996
Speaker 2: think can happen through inaction or just thought. Like I

542
00:25:40,036 --> 00:25:41,796
Speaker 2: had a friend ones tell me to like clear out

543
00:25:41,796 --> 00:25:44,916
Speaker 2: a closet and like make space for my partner. Know,

544
00:25:44,956 --> 00:25:47,436
Speaker 2: it's like, I don't know if that's going to necessarily

545
00:25:47,476 --> 00:25:49,276
Speaker 2: do it. I need to go on dates and like

546
00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:53,076
Speaker 2: put effort into meeting and growing a connection. But relationships

547
00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:56,636
Speaker 2: take work, not manifestation. Relationships are built over a long

548
00:25:56,756 --> 00:26:00,356
Speaker 2: period of time, and that requires patient's effort, tolerance forgiveness,

549
00:26:00,396 --> 00:26:01,476
Speaker 2: all the stuff I was just saying.

550
00:26:02,556 --> 00:26:04,916
Speaker 1: One of the key observations in Todd's book is this,

551
00:26:05,436 --> 00:26:08,676
Speaker 1: as our expectations for love have soored to unprecedented heights,

552
00:26:08,716 --> 00:26:12,116
Speaker 1: Todd our commitment to doing the necessary work to sustain

553
00:26:12,156 --> 00:26:15,916
Speaker 1: that love has plummeted. So after the break, we'll unpack

554
00:26:15,996 --> 00:26:19,356
Speaker 1: the facet of love never mentioned in fairy tales, all

555
00:26:19,396 --> 00:26:23,076
Speaker 1: the work it requires. The Happiness Lab will be right back.

556
00:26:30,636 --> 00:26:33,236
Speaker 1: As a therapist, Todd Barrett sees clients who are deeply

557
00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:36,796
Speaker 1: unhappy with their relationships, but many of those clients are

558
00:26:36,836 --> 00:26:39,356
Speaker 1: also either unwilling to do the work needed to fix

559
00:26:39,396 --> 00:26:41,796
Speaker 1: things with their partner or feel like it's just not

560
00:26:41,916 --> 00:26:45,156
Speaker 1: their job to do the necessary repairs. It's a self

561
00:26:45,156 --> 00:26:48,476
Speaker 1: sabotaging mindset that Todd knows only too well from his

562
00:26:48,556 --> 00:26:50,836
Speaker 1: ten year relationship with his ex Alex.

563
00:26:51,556 --> 00:26:54,276
Speaker 2: There was a dynamic with Alex and I wear I'm

564
00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:56,236
Speaker 2: in the therapist that I was waiting for him to

565
00:26:56,236 --> 00:26:58,436
Speaker 2: bring certain things up. I was waiting for him to

566
00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:01,916
Speaker 2: do certain things before I took any action. And if

567
00:27:01,956 --> 00:27:03,876
Speaker 2: I was upset about something, I would just do in

568
00:27:04,116 --> 00:27:07,316
Speaker 2: frustration and disappointment, or I would spiral and feel sad

569
00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:10,036
Speaker 2: and alone, as opposed to engage and as opposed to

570
00:27:10,116 --> 00:27:12,756
Speaker 2: verbalizing myself, as opposed to really taking an active role

571
00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:16,036
Speaker 2: in the relationship. Basically, I was going silent. I was retreating,

572
00:27:16,076 --> 00:27:18,196
Speaker 2: and I was withdrawing, which is something I did as

573
00:27:18,196 --> 00:27:20,876
Speaker 2: a kid, something I learned to do with my father

574
00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:23,636
Speaker 2: and my family, and the role I was actually encouraged

575
00:27:23,636 --> 00:27:25,436
Speaker 2: to take on as a child, which was to be

576
00:27:25,516 --> 00:27:28,116
Speaker 2: quiet when I was upset, when I was hurt, no

577
00:27:28,156 --> 00:27:30,836
Speaker 2: matter what, be quiet. And I was doing the same

578
00:27:30,876 --> 00:27:33,676
Speaker 2: thing with Alex. The difference was is I was doing

579
00:27:33,676 --> 00:27:36,516
Speaker 2: it in response to Alex not taking care of me

580
00:27:36,556 --> 00:27:38,756
Speaker 2: in a certain way, him not fulfilling my needs in

581
00:27:38,796 --> 00:27:41,316
Speaker 2: a certain way. Instead of me saying, hey, you know,

582
00:27:41,396 --> 00:27:43,516
Speaker 2: could you do this, I would go quiet. And so

583
00:27:43,676 --> 00:27:47,236
Speaker 2: that's the dynamic, and the reaction of me not taking

584
00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:49,916
Speaker 2: up space caused him to take up more space and

585
00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:52,676
Speaker 2: overlook me more, which made me feel more alone, which

586
00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:55,116
Speaker 2: was the same loneliness I experienced as a kid. And

587
00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:57,436
Speaker 2: so I was playing a huge role in creating a

588
00:27:57,516 --> 00:28:01,396
Speaker 2: dynamic that contributed to my own lack of satisfaction and misery.

589
00:28:01,796 --> 00:28:03,756
Speaker 2: And so that's not to say that Alex wasn't doing

590
00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:06,476
Speaker 2: certain things and he could have done other things, but

591
00:28:06,516 --> 00:28:08,636
Speaker 2: it is just to say that this was the role

592
00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:11,316
Speaker 2: I was playing and shaping my relationship and it wasn't

593
00:28:11,356 --> 00:28:14,076
Speaker 2: working for me. And you know, the same thing came

594
00:28:14,156 --> 00:28:16,516
Speaker 2: up last night with me and my new partner.

595
00:28:16,756 --> 00:28:18,676
Speaker 1: Can you unpack like what came like? What was the

596
00:28:18,716 --> 00:28:20,156
Speaker 1: situation that came up a little bit?

597
00:28:20,356 --> 00:28:22,836
Speaker 2: Yeah, I you know, it was something similar to I

598
00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:26,876
Speaker 2: wanted to be asked questions about something specific or to

599
00:28:26,916 --> 00:28:30,076
Speaker 2: have more interest be expressed. But I still you know,

600
00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:32,756
Speaker 2: as a therapist, I tend to default to the space

601
00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:35,556
Speaker 2: of asking questions, of not taking up space of listening,

602
00:28:35,876 --> 00:28:38,476
Speaker 2: or just shutting down, Like if someone doesn't ask me,

603
00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:40,716
Speaker 2: I shut down instead of just start talking. And I

604
00:28:40,756 --> 00:28:42,956
Speaker 2: shut down because I get disappointed. And this is a

605
00:28:42,956 --> 00:28:45,276
Speaker 2: common thing that I see often in the couples with

606
00:28:45,316 --> 00:28:48,676
Speaker 2: my friends, is that people are wanting interest to be expressed,

607
00:28:48,716 --> 00:28:53,476
Speaker 2: but they're not willing to express themselves. And so this

608
00:28:53,516 --> 00:28:55,316
Speaker 2: is what you know, in terms of change yourself, change

609
00:28:55,316 --> 00:28:58,836
Speaker 2: your relationship, as I attempt to try and change myself here,

610
00:28:58,836 --> 00:29:01,236
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that it'll create a different dynamic in terms

611
00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:03,476
Speaker 2: of I will take up more space and therefore I

612
00:29:03,516 --> 00:29:04,596
Speaker 2: will receive more space.

613
00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:07,476
Speaker 1: And another part of kind of understanding yourself to understand

614
00:29:07,476 --> 00:29:10,276
Speaker 1: the relationship, To understand this kind of co created dynamic

615
00:29:10,396 --> 00:29:13,316
Speaker 1: is to really dig into something that might be very painful,

616
00:29:13,316 --> 00:29:16,196
Speaker 1: which is your triggers, and so explain what a trigger

617
00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:19,676
Speaker 1: is and why understanding them for yourself can be so

618
00:29:19,756 --> 00:29:21,036
Speaker 1: powerful for relationships.

619
00:29:21,356 --> 00:29:24,156
Speaker 2: When you're feeling something really powerful, like if it makes

620
00:29:24,196 --> 00:29:27,116
Speaker 2: you feel really sad or really disappointed, or to a

621
00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:29,116
Speaker 2: point where you shut down, you can be sure that

622
00:29:29,156 --> 00:29:32,356
Speaker 2: you're being triggered. Triggers are any kind of stimulus that

623
00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:35,716
Speaker 2: pulls out some kind of emotional reaction, and sometimes it

624
00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:38,036
Speaker 2: is just about the present, but oftentimes it's about both

625
00:29:38,036 --> 00:29:40,476
Speaker 2: the past and the present, and so the past being

626
00:29:40,556 --> 00:29:43,396
Speaker 2: these earlier wounds from our family of origin and culture,

627
00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:46,196
Speaker 2: and so they're really important to become aware of because

628
00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:48,716
Speaker 2: it deepens the story and it often will help us

629
00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:51,116
Speaker 2: elicit a better reaction from our partners when instead of

630
00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:53,356
Speaker 2: blaming them and criticizing them for not fulfilling or need,

631
00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:55,916
Speaker 2: we can understand first why we're feeling so intense to

632
00:29:55,916 --> 00:29:58,916
Speaker 2: have that need fulfilled, and where those responses come from,

633
00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:01,596
Speaker 2: and we can approach them much much better from a

634
00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:05,356
Speaker 2: place not of desperation, not of entitlement, not of objectifying

635
00:30:05,396 --> 00:30:07,716
Speaker 2: them to be our need fulfilling machine, but as a

636
00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:11,156
Speaker 2: human being with experience, those that have contributed to why

637
00:30:11,196 --> 00:30:12,156
Speaker 2: we want what we want.

638
00:30:12,676 --> 00:30:15,836
Speaker 1: Sometimes our triggers wind up making us behave in ways

639
00:30:15,836 --> 00:30:19,036
Speaker 1: that don't necessarily make sense for our current partners. You

640
00:30:19,116 --> 00:30:21,436
Speaker 1: told a story about this with Alex when you had

641
00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:24,036
Speaker 1: a little bit of a fender bender in Alex's car.

642
00:30:24,636 --> 00:30:26,076
Speaker 1: Curious if you'll share that story.

643
00:30:26,316 --> 00:30:29,876
Speaker 2: I completely wrecked his car, and I was petrified. I

644
00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:31,956
Speaker 2: was so afraid he was going to scream at me,

645
00:30:32,116 --> 00:30:34,276
Speaker 2: reject me, leave me, like I thought. I was in

646
00:30:34,596 --> 00:30:37,796
Speaker 2: big trouble. I'm the least handy person, like I literally

647
00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:40,356
Speaker 2: can't fix anything. But I was freaked out so much

648
00:30:40,396 --> 00:30:42,196
Speaker 2: that I went to the auto store and I bought

649
00:30:42,196 --> 00:30:44,676
Speaker 2: car parts and I started to try to fix the car.

650
00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:46,436
Speaker 2: He came out and he found me and he's like,

651
00:30:46,436 --> 00:30:47,916
Speaker 2: what are you doing. I know you can't do this.

652
00:30:47,956 --> 00:30:49,996
Speaker 2: I don't care. Really, it's not a big deal. And

653
00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:52,036
Speaker 2: it was really reparative for me to know that I

654
00:30:52,076 --> 00:30:54,356
Speaker 2: could make a mistake, I could even damage his car

655
00:30:54,636 --> 00:30:57,356
Speaker 2: and I could still receive love and it wouldn't get punished.

656
00:30:57,756 --> 00:31:01,756
Speaker 2: And so these are moments that are extremely reparative with

657
00:31:01,836 --> 00:31:04,436
Speaker 2: our partners. And it was a sweet moment and it

658
00:31:04,476 --> 00:31:10,476
Speaker 2: was hot, But our triggers can bring out the opportunity

659
00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:13,196
Speaker 2: to really work through something powerful. And this is how,

660
00:31:13,276 --> 00:31:14,676
Speaker 2: you know, we hear people say we heal in the

661
00:31:14,716 --> 00:31:16,836
Speaker 2: context of our adult relationships, and this is how we

662
00:31:16,876 --> 00:31:20,516
Speaker 2: do it. We can relearn that we can make a mistake,

663
00:31:20,836 --> 00:31:22,836
Speaker 2: we can be ourselves, and we can still be loved.

664
00:31:23,036 --> 00:31:25,596
Speaker 1: The sort of sensitivity to our own set of triggers

665
00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:27,716
Speaker 1: means that we might need to extend the same courtesy

666
00:31:27,756 --> 00:31:30,356
Speaker 1: to our partners too. We might need to recognize that

667
00:31:30,476 --> 00:31:33,836
Speaker 1: they have triggers and sometimes when they're responding kind of

668
00:31:33,876 --> 00:31:36,356
Speaker 1: really intensely, it might not be about us. It might

669
00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:38,716
Speaker 1: be about something that happened in the past. So talk

670
00:31:38,716 --> 00:31:41,356
Speaker 1: about how we can kind of navigate our partner's triggers

671
00:31:41,396 --> 00:31:42,556
Speaker 1: and do that a little bit better.

672
00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:45,676
Speaker 2: It's really hard, and I call this emotional karate or

673
00:31:45,756 --> 00:31:48,836
Speaker 2: mission impossible. You know, we're all a little narcissistic, and

674
00:31:48,876 --> 00:31:51,196
Speaker 2: we all do think that things are everything is about us,

675
00:31:51,236 --> 00:31:52,996
Speaker 2: and if our partner is going to act in a

676
00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:56,276
Speaker 2: certain way, it has certain implications on who we are

677
00:31:56,356 --> 00:31:58,596
Speaker 2: or what they think about us. But we really have

678
00:31:58,716 --> 00:32:00,836
Speaker 2: to become a bit more curious when we see our

679
00:32:00,836 --> 00:32:05,596
Speaker 2: partners struggling, getting really angry, feeling really sad, looking really withdrawn.

680
00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:07,996
Speaker 2: We all have a tendency to feel, why are they

681
00:32:08,036 --> 00:32:09,796
Speaker 2: doing this to me? Why are they in this mood?

682
00:32:10,036 --> 00:32:13,396
Speaker 2: I don't like it? So we view our partner, their behavior,

683
00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:15,996
Speaker 2: their thoughts, their feelings, their reactions through a lens of

684
00:32:16,076 --> 00:32:18,796
Speaker 2: what they're doing to us or how it relates to us,

685
00:32:18,836 --> 00:32:20,956
Speaker 2: as opposed to how it relates to them. So it's

686
00:32:20,996 --> 00:32:23,876
Speaker 2: really important and helpful to get into the habit of empathy.

687
00:32:24,596 --> 00:32:27,876
Speaker 2: Is everything okay? What's happening? Where does this come from?

688
00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:30,876
Speaker 2: Do you have an idea about why you're feeling so

689
00:32:30,956 --> 00:32:33,916
Speaker 2: upset right now? So it's really important to first go

690
00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:37,956
Speaker 2: a place of curiosity rather than blame, criticism, contempt. I

691
00:32:37,996 --> 00:32:39,876
Speaker 2: did this with Alex. He would get into a bad

692
00:32:39,956 --> 00:32:43,516
Speaker 2: mood and instead of just asking is everything okay? I

693
00:32:43,516 --> 00:32:45,156
Speaker 2: would get annoyed. I'd be like this is annoying. I

694
00:32:45,156 --> 00:32:46,756
Speaker 2: don't want to be with someone who's in a bad mood,

695
00:32:47,036 --> 00:32:48,956
Speaker 2: or I would feel threatened if he raised his voice

696
00:32:48,996 --> 00:32:51,276
Speaker 2: not to me, but like we're driving and he was

697
00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:54,316
Speaker 2: having road rage, which sure it's not pleasant, but like

698
00:32:54,316 --> 00:32:57,276
Speaker 2: it had nothing to do with me, but I made

699
00:32:57,316 --> 00:32:59,436
Speaker 2: it about me, and I was like, this is unpleasant

700
00:32:59,476 --> 00:33:02,556
Speaker 2: for me, as opposed to, you know, letting him be

701
00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:04,676
Speaker 2: a human being who has his own histories, who has

702
00:33:04,676 --> 00:33:08,636
Speaker 2: his own anxieties, his own triggers, and trying to understand.

703
00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:11,076
Speaker 1: That the understanding. Also, it seems like you needed to

704
00:33:11,076 --> 00:33:13,276
Speaker 1: ask Alex about what was going on, You needed to

705
00:33:13,316 --> 00:33:16,196
Speaker 1: get curious, but also to maybe have a hard conversation

706
00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:19,316
Speaker 1: that involved him delving into his past. And so how

707
00:33:19,316 --> 00:33:23,196
Speaker 1: can we normalize this idea that conversations aren't always easy

708
00:33:23,236 --> 00:33:25,596
Speaker 1: and fun, that sometimes they're hard, and that can actually

709
00:33:25,636 --> 00:33:26,916
Speaker 1: be healing in the long run.

710
00:33:27,196 --> 00:33:31,276
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean also that fighting isn't necessarily bad. Conflict

711
00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:33,996
Speaker 2: isn't bad. Again, you know, conflict for all of us

712
00:33:34,076 --> 00:33:36,676
Speaker 2: is a trigger. Though it's how you do the conflict

713
00:33:36,676 --> 00:33:39,716
Speaker 2: that really makes a difference. And it's really making sure

714
00:33:39,836 --> 00:33:43,396
Speaker 2: that one that we can have the conversations that feel hard,

715
00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:48,236
Speaker 2: but they don't have to involve scary, screaming, yelling things

716
00:33:48,316 --> 00:33:51,476
Speaker 2: that are unsafe. You can insert humor, touch, eye contact,

717
00:33:51,676 --> 00:33:56,756
Speaker 2: caring expressions, caring responses. It can be fighty. That's okay too.

718
00:33:57,116 --> 00:33:59,156
Speaker 2: Don't get into the contempt and the name calling and

719
00:33:59,196 --> 00:34:02,196
Speaker 2: the screaming and the real means stuff. But if we

720
00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:05,676
Speaker 2: don't have these conversations, it will lead to future resentment,

721
00:34:05,756 --> 00:34:09,436
Speaker 2: it will lead to disconnection. It will really back to

722
00:34:09,436 --> 00:34:11,316
Speaker 2: your relationships. So it's just kind of one of those

723
00:34:11,356 --> 00:34:13,236
Speaker 2: things you have to do, like going to the dentist,

724
00:34:13,396 --> 00:34:15,516
Speaker 2: which sorry dentists, but no one wants to go.

725
00:34:15,796 --> 00:34:17,876
Speaker 1: As we talk about unlearning all of these rules, I'm

726
00:34:17,876 --> 00:34:20,156
Speaker 1: cognizant that you're both the therapist and the expert on this,

727
00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:23,876
Speaker 1: but also someone who yourself is dating and engaging your relationships.

728
00:34:24,116 --> 00:34:26,316
Speaker 1: Has unlearning all of these rules helped you out too.

729
00:34:26,596 --> 00:34:28,596
Speaker 2: I have friends that you know, when we first met,

730
00:34:28,636 --> 00:34:30,436
Speaker 2: they thought I was a therapist and had it all

731
00:34:30,476 --> 00:34:34,196
Speaker 2: figured out and didn't experience challenge. And my traumas remain.

732
00:34:34,556 --> 00:34:37,996
Speaker 2: They don't go away. No one's trauma goes away. I've

733
00:34:38,076 --> 00:34:42,436
Speaker 2: learned to understand my traumas and understanding my traumas and

734
00:34:42,436 --> 00:34:45,676
Speaker 2: expanding my conscious awareness of who I am has helped

735
00:34:45,756 --> 00:34:49,756
Speaker 2: me better understand what happens for me in relational dynamics.

736
00:34:49,956 --> 00:34:52,876
Speaker 2: I'm better at understanding it. I'm better at not just

737
00:34:53,036 --> 00:34:55,476
Speaker 2: reacting right away or sending that text message that I

738
00:34:55,516 --> 00:34:58,196
Speaker 2: might have sent that was really not helpful to send.

739
00:34:58,396 --> 00:35:01,276
Speaker 2: But in terms of understanding my trauma, there's no cure

740
00:35:01,316 --> 00:35:02,996
Speaker 2: for that, like I was saying, And so, you know,

741
00:35:03,076 --> 00:35:05,996
Speaker 2: this is part of life that often gets missed in Instagram,

742
00:35:06,076 --> 00:35:08,076
Speaker 2: is that part of it is feeling pain, part of

743
00:35:08,116 --> 00:35:09,996
Speaker 2: it is feeling happy. In one you know, there's an

744
00:35:10,156 --> 00:35:12,916
Speaker 2: entire spectrum of emotion, just like there's an entire spectrum

745
00:35:12,956 --> 00:35:16,316
Speaker 2: of weather. And while all of this information insight has

746
00:35:16,356 --> 00:35:19,316
Speaker 2: been crucial and helpful and really help me de escalate

747
00:35:19,356 --> 00:35:22,116
Speaker 2: the anxiety and panic I can feel at times with

748
00:35:22,156 --> 00:35:25,036
Speaker 2: the partner, it still comes up, but I think from

749
00:35:25,076 --> 00:35:27,996
Speaker 2: a much calmer place than I used to. But the

750
00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:30,196
Speaker 2: end of a relationship part I think is particularly important

751
00:35:30,236 --> 00:35:32,836
Speaker 2: because the amount of people that I get questions from

752
00:35:32,916 --> 00:35:34,356
Speaker 2: how do I know when to end it? You know,

753
00:35:34,436 --> 00:35:37,676
Speaker 2: questions like that. You know they're so complicated. That's really

754
00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:40,596
Speaker 2: helpful to think about not just dating, not just you know,

755
00:35:40,676 --> 00:35:42,676
Speaker 2: love in general while we're in it, or conflict or

756
00:35:42,876 --> 00:35:46,316
Speaker 2: reasonable disappointment, but also you know the idea that relationships

757
00:35:46,356 --> 00:35:48,956
Speaker 2: do in fact end, and they don't end in this

758
00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:50,876
Speaker 2: fairy tale kind of period at the end of a

759
00:35:50,956 --> 00:35:53,716
Speaker 2: sentence kind of a way. Sometimes greed goes on forever.

760
00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:55,196
Speaker 2: It's hard, et cetera.

761
00:35:55,556 --> 00:35:57,356
Speaker 1: So what's some of your best advice for somebody who's

762
00:35:57,436 --> 00:36:00,036
Speaker 1: ended a relationship. How can they give themselves some grace

763
00:36:00,116 --> 00:36:02,276
Speaker 1: and self compassion to navigate that ending.

764
00:36:02,716 --> 00:36:04,356
Speaker 2: I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind

765
00:36:04,396 --> 00:36:07,476
Speaker 2: is stop evaluating yourself for your partner. All of that

766
00:36:07,756 --> 00:36:11,236
Speaker 2: is resistance to just feeling our pain. Relational endings are

767
00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:18,316
Speaker 2: incredibly painful, incredibly painful, and evaluating it looking back, thinking

768
00:36:18,356 --> 00:36:21,436
Speaker 2: about our ex spiraling about one thing or another. It's

769
00:36:21,476 --> 00:36:23,756
Speaker 2: just resistance to pain. And the best thing that people

770
00:36:23,796 --> 00:36:26,756
Speaker 2: can do when they're going through a relational ending is grieve,

771
00:36:27,196 --> 00:36:30,036
Speaker 2: let themselves feel their emotions, to let themselves be where

772
00:36:30,076 --> 00:36:32,516
Speaker 2: they are. If it's you know, like I was saying,

773
00:36:32,716 --> 00:36:35,156
Speaker 2: I've ended my relationship in three years later, is still

774
00:36:35,156 --> 00:36:38,556
Speaker 2: having nightmares, nightmares about my ex with these goods, you know,

775
00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:41,476
Speaker 2: these things, they follow us and there's meaning behind it.

776
00:36:41,516 --> 00:36:44,916
Speaker 2: So stop evaluating yourself let yourself feel things, which is

777
00:36:44,956 --> 00:36:47,276
Speaker 2: so hard to do and not the response that people want.

778
00:36:47,316 --> 00:36:49,356
Speaker 2: They want a top ten list of like these are

779
00:36:49,396 --> 00:36:51,076
Speaker 2: the things you do, be with friends, do this, which

780
00:36:51,076 --> 00:36:53,116
Speaker 2: you can. But the reality is to get through a

781
00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:59,156
Speaker 2: breakup and heartbreak requires tolerance and courage and patience and self.

782
00:36:58,916 --> 00:37:01,516
Speaker 1: Awareness and so any tips on how to make that

783
00:37:01,596 --> 00:37:05,076
Speaker 1: hard decision about whether a relationship needs some work and

784
00:37:05,156 --> 00:37:07,876
Speaker 1: will continue on versus it's over and you should give.

785
00:37:07,876 --> 00:37:10,756
Speaker 2: Up on it? Question so much, when do I know?

786
00:37:10,876 --> 00:37:13,356
Speaker 2: When do I leave? What I usually tell people, and

787
00:37:13,436 --> 00:37:16,076
Speaker 2: this is it's so counterintuitive, but I tell them to

788
00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:18,156
Speaker 2: work on it. Go to couples counseling. If you're at

789
00:37:18,156 --> 00:37:20,796
Speaker 2: this place, that doesn't mean that you're going to repair

790
00:37:20,836 --> 00:37:23,076
Speaker 2: your relationship. But I truly don't think that people are

791
00:37:23,116 --> 00:37:26,996
Speaker 2: really equipped at times to fully know how to move forward,

792
00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:29,996
Speaker 2: which is why they're feeling so confused and so having

793
00:37:30,036 --> 00:37:32,516
Speaker 2: someone to help you and your partner work through this

794
00:37:32,556 --> 00:37:35,276
Speaker 2: because it's a couple's issue. Relational learnings are a couple's issue,

795
00:37:35,356 --> 00:37:37,716
Speaker 2: even if only one person is initiating it. That can

796
00:37:37,756 --> 00:37:40,116
Speaker 2: be really helpful of course, not everybody is access to

797
00:37:40,436 --> 00:37:43,036
Speaker 2: or even wants to go because they're feeling so hopeless,

798
00:37:43,236 --> 00:37:46,716
Speaker 2: which fine, but even still, sometimes you know, if you're

799
00:37:46,756 --> 00:37:50,036
Speaker 2: not there to pull the trigger, which most people are not,

800
00:37:50,236 --> 00:37:53,596
Speaker 2: it can take years sometimes of ambivalence and confusion. Is

801
00:37:53,636 --> 00:37:55,916
Speaker 2: still to work through it as best as you can

802
00:37:55,996 --> 00:37:58,436
Speaker 2: with your partner. It's often through those steps that you're

803
00:37:58,476 --> 00:38:00,716
Speaker 2: going to get more information about what it's like to

804
00:38:00,796 --> 00:38:03,156
Speaker 2: work through your disappointments with them, what it's like to

805
00:38:03,156 --> 00:38:05,476
Speaker 2: bring up that conversation of I'm thinking about ending this

806
00:38:05,556 --> 00:38:07,756
Speaker 2: relationship and to see how they respond and to have

807
00:38:07,756 --> 00:38:10,476
Speaker 2: a conversation about it. Sometimes people do have some light

808
00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:13,196
Speaker 2: bulb that goes off most of the time that when

809
00:38:13,196 --> 00:38:15,396
Speaker 2: I'm seeing a client. In my own experience with Alex,

810
00:38:15,756 --> 00:38:18,796
Speaker 2: it's really confusing because these are people at times who've

811
00:38:18,796 --> 00:38:21,356
Speaker 2: been with for years that we deeply, deeply love, and

812
00:38:21,436 --> 00:38:23,756
Speaker 2: it's not just a matter of they're terrible, I don't

813
00:38:23,756 --> 00:38:25,356
Speaker 2: want to be with them anymore. And sometimes even when

814
00:38:25,396 --> 00:38:26,636
Speaker 2: they are terrible and you don't want to be with

815
00:38:26,636 --> 00:38:29,756
Speaker 2: them and even still be difficult because of your life's context.

816
00:38:29,876 --> 00:38:32,156
Speaker 2: So I mean, the direct advice is to try and

817
00:38:32,196 --> 00:38:34,036
Speaker 2: work through it and to go to counseling to get help.

818
00:38:34,356 --> 00:38:36,076
Speaker 2: We didn't do that, me and Alex and I really

819
00:38:36,356 --> 00:38:38,756
Speaker 2: actually do regret not doing that, not because I think

820
00:38:38,756 --> 00:38:40,396
Speaker 2: we would have still been together, but I think it

821
00:38:40,436 --> 00:38:43,516
Speaker 2: really would have been helpful to work through the ending together.

822
00:38:43,836 --> 00:38:45,956
Speaker 2: And I think that's often a very scary step to

823
00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:49,356
Speaker 2: take again because of helplessness, and it feels counterintuitive, but

824
00:38:49,876 --> 00:38:52,196
Speaker 2: it's one really helpful way to approach an ending.

825
00:38:53,236 --> 00:38:55,956
Speaker 1: Speaking of endings, we've now come full circle with our

826
00:38:55,996 --> 00:38:59,676
Speaker 1: short season on Happiness and Love. We've talked about happier dating,

827
00:38:59,916 --> 00:39:03,636
Speaker 1: happier long term love, happier arguing and repair, and finally

828
00:39:03,676 --> 00:39:06,796
Speaker 1: now happier breakups. But hopefully you won't be thinking of

829
00:39:06,796 --> 00:39:09,516
Speaker 1: ditching us for someone else. Because The Happiness Life has

830
00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:12,716
Speaker 1: many new shows in store. We'll soon be celebrating World

831
00:39:12,716 --> 00:39:15,996
Speaker 1: Happiness Day with a few special episodes and some very

832
00:39:16,036 --> 00:39:16,836
Speaker 1: special guests.

833
00:39:17,116 --> 00:39:19,716
Speaker 3: The Twitter fans guys are out there like all day

834
00:39:20,316 --> 00:39:24,596
Speaker 3: for like weeks. It's insane. They're like risking their lives.

835
00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:27,916
Speaker 3: They're losing twenty pounds, their butts, sore, their back. I mean,

836
00:39:27,916 --> 00:39:29,956
Speaker 3: it's just like incredible, like what they go through the

837
00:39:29,996 --> 00:39:30,916
Speaker 3: whole thing is just nut.

838
00:39:30,996 --> 00:39:31,756
Speaker 2: It's just nuts.

839
00:39:32,076 --> 00:39:34,956
Speaker 1: But before that, I'll take you on a strange happiness journey,

840
00:39:35,116 --> 00:39:37,676
Speaker 1: high high up in the sky. I would work your back.

841
00:39:39,076 --> 00:39:42,116
Speaker 1: If you listen to Jagger's cockpit recordings, his fear is

842
00:39:42,236 --> 00:39:44,876
Speaker 1: very obvious and his relief is palpable.

843
00:39:45,716 --> 00:39:47,036
Speaker 2: I can't very much. Before I got

844
00:39:47,916 --> 00:39:53,236
Speaker 1: About, he knew he was in troubled right, that's still

845
00:39:53,276 --> 00:39:55,876
Speaker 1: to come on the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Laurie

846
00:39:55,956 --> 00:39:56,436
Speaker 1: Santos