1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: and how the tech? Are you all right? Friends? We're 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: soldiering on in our extremely long series about the history 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: of online social networks. I believe this is the fifth 7 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: episode in that series at this point, and by my reckoning, 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: we have gone from the mid ninety nineties up to 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: or so and so far. If you've been following this series, 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: you've probably noticed there have been some waves of similarities 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: in networks as they have emerged. So early on, we 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: had really simple networks designed to either connect or reconnect people, 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: with the emphasis gradually shifting to the reconnect for most 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: networks as people were finding their real life friends and 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: family in this strange new world of the Internet. Following that, 16 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: we learned about some journaling sites that let users keep 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: an ongoing weblog or blog about their lives and hopes 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: and dreams and thoughts. It was part personal diary, part 19 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: showcase for your work. A lot of those sites are 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: still around today. Many of them have gone through massive changes, 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: including changes of ownership, over the years. I'm looking at you. 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Live Journal owned by a Russian company at this point. 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: Then we had an age where profiles became a really 24 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: big thing, you know, like Facebook and MySpace really grew 25 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: in this era, where people would create a sort of 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: home base online and then they would reach out from 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: that home base. There was also a surge of niche 28 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: oriented social networks around this time that appealed to specific demographics, 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: like dog owners or people who knit. I didn't really 30 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: talk about ravelry, but that's another example of a social 31 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: network that was catering to a niche audience. Also a 32 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: really exclusive social network for a while, like it was 33 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: invitation only anyway. Then we get to a bunch of 34 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: services that focus on microblogging, you know, ditching the long 35 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: journal format for short, you know, sometimes witty or pithy messages. 36 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: This would be your Twitters, your Plurics, your Jaikus, and 37 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: to a lesser extent, your Tumblers, because Tumbler obviously is 38 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: more than just short blogs. And that was the next entry, 39 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: really and now we're coming up to the latest in 40 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: this series. We're up to about twenty ten, and we 41 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: get to Pinterest, the picture perfect social network, at least 42 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: on the surface. But like many of the companies we've 43 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: already talked about in this series, Pinterest has a dark 44 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: side as l and we'll get to that. But first, 45 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: where did Pinterist come from? Well, it all began with 46 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: Ben Silberman. He had worked for Google before he set 47 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: off to go into business for himself, and first he 48 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: attempted to create an e commerce app for the iPhone 49 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: that he called Tote t O t E. But apparently 50 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: users found the design of Tote too complicated. And I 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: can believe that it sounds like something that can happen 52 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: when you consider that Silberman came from Google, because we 53 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: all know Google's projects are driven by engineers, and sometimes 54 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: that shows. Not to say that the products are bad, 55 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: but they work the way an engineer would put it together, 56 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: and for people who aren't engineers, it can sometimes come 57 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: across as needlessly complicated. Anyway, Tote fumbled the bag, as 58 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: it were, and Silverman teamed up with Evan Sharp and 59 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: Paul Sciarra, who came out of Facebook and Radius Ventures 60 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: l C. And together these three brainstormed and idea that 61 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: would be around an image based social network like photograph based, 62 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily images that you took yourself. It could be, 63 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: but didn't have to be, And it would be almost 64 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: like a combination of scrap booking and social networks, where 65 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: you could create image boards around themes. Maybe you create 66 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: a board around the theme of Edwardian costuming. I can't 67 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: tell you any of those I've visited, and I'm not 68 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: being facetious. Maybe you create a different board for things 69 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: like scenic overlook looks, places that just have a gorgeous view. 70 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: Maybe you create a board that has interesting jewelry on 71 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: it from various creators, or really anything else, if you 72 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: if you like. So they worked on their idea throughout 73 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: two thousand nine, and in March they launched the site 74 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: with a closed beta, so just a small group of 75 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: users who are testing and out making sure that everything 76 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: marked the way it was intended. They opened this up 77 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: slightly and then people in the beta program were allowed 78 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: to send invites to others, but it was still otherwise 79 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: a closed beta. And like we've seen with other entries 80 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: in this series, that kind of exclusivity and controlled entry 81 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: drove up interest. Like I said in previous episodes, everybody 82 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: wants to get into the club that barely lets anyone 83 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: in because you want to be one of the cool people. 84 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: We'll hear that again before we're through with this series, 85 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: because once upon a time I got to be a 86 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: cool person. It um. It didn't stick, obviously, but we're 87 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: still talking interest here. The team held back on opening 88 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: up the floodgates, and growth was steady, but you know, 89 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: fairly modest. You know, in three months they had three 90 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: thousand users, and in nine months it was up to 91 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: ten thousand, and by a year later, this little niche 92 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: site was the talk of the social network industry, and 93 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: Time magazine declared it one of the best sites in 94 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: the world at that point. So the growth and users exploded, 95 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: and over the years they grew tremendously. These days, the 96 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: number of users are it's somewhere in the four hundred 97 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: thirty million neighborhood, which is not bad. You know, it's 98 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: not Facebook by a long shot, but four thirty million 99 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: is a lot of people. From early on, Pinterest became 100 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: a site that attracted brands to it because companies could 101 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: create Pinterest accounts and boards and use these boards to 102 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: showcase products in attractive ways. So it was kind of 103 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: like getting access to a magazine and being able to 104 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: turn every single page of that magazine into an ad. 105 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: Companies loved this and they worked. Pinterest also became a 106 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: social network that had far more women as members than men, 107 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: which made it a real outlier. In fact, estimates say 108 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: that women make up more than seventy percent of the 109 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: user base on Pinterest, and it kind of tried to 110 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: groom and cultivate a reputation for being a woman friendly 111 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: and safe space. More on that in a moment too, now. 112 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: An early obstacle for Pinterest came when folks actually did 113 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: something no one ever does, and they read the terms 114 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: of service because until the wording said that Pinterest would 115 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: own all images uploaded to the website. Yeah, you might 116 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: have taken the photo. If you upload it to Pinterest, 117 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: Pinterest claims ownership of the image, not you, and in 118 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: Pinterest committed to never selling those images. So you know, 119 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: it was one of those complicated things. You think, well, 120 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: I took the photo, I should have the copyright to 121 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: that photo. But Pinterest was saying, we published the photos, 122 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: so now we have the copyright and you agreed to 123 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: it in the terms of service. So that that was 124 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: a bit of a sticking point early in pinterest history. 125 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, skipping away ahead because I mean the 126 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: company grows, the company gets lots more users, people begin 127 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: to find really creative ways to use it. But there's 128 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: no real point in in diving into all that because 129 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: I've pretty much summed up what I would say. But 130 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, the team decided to hold an initial 131 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: public offering. So when you go from being a privately 132 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: held company to a publicly traded company, and it was 133 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: bringing in a lot of revenue, but it had not 134 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: yet become profitable. So again pinterest launched in in twenty nineteen, 135 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: it's going to become a publicly traded company. But throughout 136 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: its history, at this point, it had not once turned 137 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: a profit. It was operating at a loss. So it's 138 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: bringing in lots and lots of money, but it cost 139 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: more just to keep in business. So this is not 140 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: a huge surprise. It's not like it's an outlier for pinterest. 141 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: We have seen lots of social networks follow this route 142 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: because the first phase of a social network typically is 143 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: all about building value by attracting a large user base. 144 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: You know, you want to get as many people on 145 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: your service as possible and grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. 146 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: That is your goal. Then once you have a pretty 147 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: large user base, you try to figure out how to 148 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: make money off of them or with them, because typically 149 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: your user base becomes your product and advertisers become your customers. Now, 150 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: Pinterest would not host its first profit until twenty twenty one, 151 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: which is last year when I'm recording this. Anyway, in 152 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, the company went public. Now, at its height, 153 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: the stock was valued at eighty five dollars per share. However, 154 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: as of this recording, it's around twenty three dollars per share, 155 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: which is a fairly drastic drop off. But we've got 156 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: a bigger one later in this episode. Earlier this year, 157 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: back in June two tho Ben Silberman stepped down as CEO. 158 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: He had been in that position since and he stepped down. 159 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: He is now the chairman of the board and a 160 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: guy named Bill Ready has taken the helm of pinterest, 161 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: And I guess you could say that Bill was prepared 162 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: to do the job anyway. Ready comes from companies like 163 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: PayPal and Google and has a long history and things 164 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: like monetization. Silberman likely stepped down in part due to 165 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: an issue with the company's stock price falling even as 166 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: it was posting its first profits in company history. But 167 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: then there's also this dark stuff that we need to 168 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: talk about that came to light over the past couple 169 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: of years. So in so two former pinterest employees came forward, 170 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: two women who accused Pinterest of being a culture where 171 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: things like racist and sexist behave ivir were running rampant 172 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: within the company, and that there were issues with pay inequality, 173 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: and that the company was known to take retaliatory actions 174 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: against employees who spoke out about this kind of stuff. 175 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: Then Francis Bower Brower, an executive with Pinterest, sued the 176 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: company on the grounds of gender discrimination and retaliation. Shareholders 177 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: began to sue the company as well. Because of these 178 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: kind of issues, employees staged a digital walkout of pinterest. 179 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: So my guess is like these actions collectively also contributed 180 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: to Silberman's decision to step down. Now, Pinterest would settle 181 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: Brower's lawsuit for twenty million dollars and had an additional 182 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: two and a half million dollars earmarked for charities that 183 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: help you know, women and people of color within the 184 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: tech sector. Meanwhile, one of the women who stepped forward 185 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: in twenty would end up working with California lawmakers to 186 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: draft legislation that protects employees who speak out against their employers. 187 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: So it's legislation that really comes down hard on things 188 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: like retaliation. Then we have the matter of Christine Martinez. 189 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: She claims she is the unacknowledged co founder of pinterest, 190 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: that she worked as an unpaid consultant when Silverman and 191 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: Skiera and Sharp were brainstorming on how pinterest would work. 192 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: She filed a lawsuit that specifically named Silverman and Skiara, 193 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: claiming that they they had listened to her advice. She 194 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: had served as a mentor and the UH council for 195 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: them when it came to designing a product that was 196 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: really targeting women users. So she says, like they didn't 197 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: know anything about appealing to women, so they turned to 198 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: me and I gave them guidance. She claims to have 199 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: been the person responsible for deciding that users would organize 200 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: images on boards, and that she played a part in 201 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: creating the terminology of connecting an image to a ward 202 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: and calling it a an action of pen it like 203 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: you pen it to your your bulletin board. Now, Unfortunately 204 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: for Ms Martinez, she never had any sort of written 205 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: contract with the creators. It's not like she was an 206 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: official contractor or or uh consultant or anything like that. 207 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: It was all more of a verbal agreement. She says. 208 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: There was an understanding she would be compensated should the 209 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: company ever become a success, and when pinterest went public 210 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen and there was no check in the mail, 211 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: she says she realized that she was not going to 212 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: be compensated and that the co founders, she says, were 213 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: engaged in idea theft. Thus she files a lawsuit against 214 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: the company. Now, the lack of documentation makes it seemed 215 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: to me like miss Martinez has a pretty tough case 216 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: to make, even assuming everything she says is accurate. For 217 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: the record, I have no reason to doubt her. It's 218 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: just that there seems to be little in the way 219 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: of corroborating evidence at this stage. But again I have 220 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: not involved in the trial. There could be tons of 221 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: stuff and I'm just not aware of it. So maybe 222 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: that's the case. But at any rate, as of this recording, 223 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: that lawsuit is moving forward. So Martinez originally filed this 224 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: lawsuit back in September one, and then pinterest moved to 225 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: dismiss the case in December one, and then June of 226 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: this year, by being a judge ruled that the case 227 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: can move forward. Justice is ever so swift here in 228 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: the United States. Anyway. We'll have to see where this 229 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: goes and whether Pinterest will defend itself or settle out 230 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: of court. Okay, that's just one more in our line 231 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: of social networks. We've got lots more to come, but 232 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. We're back. So our 233 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: next social network also relates to images, but this time 234 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about Instagram. So we've already mentioned Instagram because 235 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: you know, we covered Facebook and Facebook now known as Meta, 236 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: acquired Instagram in for at the time a staggering one 237 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: billion dollars that would positively be overshadowed by Facebook's subsequent 238 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: acquisition of WhatsApp for sixteen billion dollars two years later. 239 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: So we're just gonna talk briefly about Instagram's early years 240 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: and how things changed post acquisition, because a lot of 241 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: the stuff we talked about kind of feeds right into 242 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: the Facebook entrigue that we already did earlier in this series. 243 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: So before Instagram, there was an app called Bourbon, a 244 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: developer named Kevin's Systrom created Bourbon, which was not a 245 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: type of whiskey, but rather an app that let you 246 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: check into new places and gave your friends the chance 247 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: to see where you were from place to place. It 248 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: was spelled bu, r, b, N, and uh. In many ways, 249 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: this was similar to four square, the original version of 250 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: four square, which had launched in two thousand nine. So 251 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: we did get a little brief period of location based 252 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: check in services that relates to social networks. Some of 253 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: them would interact with social networks so that you can 254 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: post your check ins to say, your Facebook account, that 255 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and some of these would pivot to 256 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: do other things. Four Square did this. Four Square pivoted 257 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: away from the check in business, mostly because there were 258 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people who had safety and privacy concerns 259 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: about these, and it became harder and harder to monetize 260 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: those without falling into some potential traps when it comes 261 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: to regulators, because I mean, obviously, anytime you're monetizing a 262 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: person's location, that gets into some sticky situations. So a 263 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: lot of those would end up moving away from the 264 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: location based check in stuff. Anyway, System got some financial 265 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: backing for Bourbon, and he brought on Mike Krieger to 266 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: help build out the app, but over time they both 267 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: realized that Bourbon was too similar to four Square and 268 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: that their test users were actually sharing photos like crazy 269 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: more than they were using the app to check into 270 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: physical locations. So they decided they would switch rails and 271 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: instead they would develop the app as a photo sharing 272 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: social network. But they wanted to change the name as well, 273 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: and they came up with the name Instagram because it's 274 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: a play on the phrase instant camera and on the 275 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: word telegram, which I'm guessing all of y'all already knew, 276 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: but I thought I would just throw it in there for, 277 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: you know, the sake of being complete now as Instagram. 278 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: The app launched in October, initially just for iOS. Within 279 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: three months, the app had more than a million users, 280 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: so it was off to the races. A month and 281 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: a half after that, they were up to two million users. 282 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: The trajectory of growth outpaced earlier social networks like Facebook 283 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: and Twitter. They were just on a rocket ship, really, 284 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: and I'm guessing that's why Facebook would ultimately come forward 285 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: with an offer to buy out Instagram, because, as anyone 286 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: who has paid any attention to Facebook, slash Meta knows 287 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: the company typically tries to do two things. If any 288 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: other service starts to gain some traction against Facebook's other products, 289 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: first thing they will try to do is buy it, 290 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: and if that fails, they will try to copy it 291 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: in an effort to keep people on Meta slash Facebook platforms, 292 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: because we all know if you're spending time on someone 293 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: else's service, well, then you're spending less time on Meta's services, 294 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 1: and that's bad for Meta's bottom line. But we're not 295 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: quite up to the acquisition just yet. The early Instagram 296 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: allowed users to post images, to leave comments on other 297 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: people's images, and to follow other users, and that was 298 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: about it. A little less than a year after launch, 299 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: Instagram would introduce options that would really change things up 300 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: make things more attractive for Instagram. They included some digital 301 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: filters and some image editing features. At the same time, 302 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: iPhones cameras were improving, so it was kind of a 303 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: perfect convergence of the hardware improving and the software giving 304 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: more options that attracted new users. And now users could 305 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: tweak their photos, even adding camera effects before sharing them 306 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: with their followers, and it really made Instagram pop in popularity. 307 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: In two thousand twelve, Android users would finally get a 308 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: chance to use Instagram as there was now an Android 309 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: version of the app, And not too long after the 310 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: android version came out, Facebook announced its intent to acquire Instagram. Now, 311 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: when Facebook bought Instagram for a billion bucks, the startup 312 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: app company was really small, like there was a Baker's 313 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: dozen worth of employees. And for those of you who 314 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: aren't familiar with one of Baker's dozen, is that means thirteen. 315 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: So imagine being one of thirteen people when the company 316 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: you work for has been bought by by another company 317 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: for a billion dollars. That had to be a heck 318 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: of a day. So Facebook buys Instagram probably because of 319 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: a combination of factors like a desire to scoop up 320 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: competition because they didn't want the fact that, you know, 321 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: Instagram was attracting younger users. Facebook was kind of already 322 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: having an issue in attracting young users like the users 323 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: they had they had in droves, but it's it was 324 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: getting harder and harder to convince younger people to come 325 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: into the service, whereas Instagram that was really attractive to 326 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: a lot of young people. So one thing Facebook was 327 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: doing was buying audience, but another reason was that they 328 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: did not want some company like Google or Twitter to 329 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: get hold of Instagram and potentially get a leg up 330 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: on Facebook. Now. At the time, the folks that Instagram 331 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: were assured that they would remain in charge and they 332 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't really have to worry about Facebook interfering with Instagram's 333 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: operations too much. But as time would go on, the 334 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: team of Instagram would see Facebook both direct Instagram to 335 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: incorporate specific features as well as it would lift some 336 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: of Instagram's functionality for other Facebook products and thus kind 337 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: of make Instagram less special as a result. So Kevin's 338 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: Systrom and Mike Kreeger both chose to leave Instagram in 339 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen, which was coming in a tough time 340 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: for Facebook, though you could argue not nearly as tough 341 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: as this past year has been in many ways. So 342 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: by two thousand eighteen, Facebook was already known as essentially 343 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: celebrating the death of privacy, which it was getting flak four, 344 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: but the company was also in the spotlight due to 345 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: issues like Cambridge Analytica for an Intelligent scandals, concerns about 346 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: misinformation campaigns, and more. Obviously, a lot of that has 347 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: not changed in years since. In fact, some of it 348 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: has just expanded to other types of misinformation, like when 349 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: the pandemic broke out and COVID misinformation ran rampant on Facebook. Anyway, 350 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,959 Speaker 1: the initial word was that system and Krieger wanted to 351 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: set out to make something new. And it was about 352 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: a year after that, in two thousand nineteen, when publications 353 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: like Wired and The Verge started to publish articles that 354 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: gave more details into what may have driven the co 355 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: founders to leave the company they created, and there were 356 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: a lot of them. For one thing, apparently Instagram's popularity 357 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: was a matter of resentment among certain Facebook staff because 358 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: they were looking at Instagram as pulling traffic away from 359 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: Facebook proper, and so it became kind of a territorial thing. Now, 360 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: it is never good when you have this kind of 361 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: animosity between different departments within the same company. I know 362 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: there's some companies that try to foster a sense of 363 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: competitiveness against each other in these departments. I personally find 364 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: that to be uh counterproductive for the overall health of 365 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: the company. But what do I know. I'm not a 366 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: billionaire anyway, making matters worse, Zuckerberg would say in an 367 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: earnings call that Instagram's success was largely due to the 368 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: support it was getting from Facebook. But as we've already 369 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: heard in this episode, Instagram was already on an adoption 370 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 1: trajectory that was way more aggressive than Facebook's own history. 371 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: So it was tough because for on one hand, Instagram 372 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: staff were being hated on but because of their success, 373 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: and on the other hand, they their success was being 374 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: claimed by the same department that hated them for being successful. 375 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 1: So it was kind of a double whammy in that sense. 376 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: But another issue was that there was increased interference and 377 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: restrictions coming from Mark Zuckerberg himself. In particular, there was 378 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: a time when Kevin Sistram was giving interviews to the press, 379 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: and Zuckerberg sequently passed an edict company wide saying no 380 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: one would be allowed to talk to the press unless 381 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: they first got permission from either Zuckerberg or from Cheryl Sandberg. 382 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that rubbed system the wrong way because 383 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: it sends the message that he's not trustworthy, right, he 384 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: can't represent the company well without permission. He's not towing 385 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: the line. And y'all, I have been on that kind 386 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: of situation in the past, not at iHeart, but in 387 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: the past, I've been in that same situation, and I 388 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: can definitely tell you it feels like an insult. Anyway, 389 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: Like I mentioned before, Facebook was making demands on Instagram 390 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: and lifting features for the core Facebook app, and all 391 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: of that was just not what Systram and Krieger wanted, 392 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: and so they split. Anyway, That's about all I have 393 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: to say about Instagram as we did, as as I said, 394 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: cover some of this stuff already in the Facebook entry. Obviously, 395 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: we've seen Instagram change a great deal over time. There's 396 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: been a greater emphasis on algorithms served content, so you're 397 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: far less likely to see stuff that from your friends 398 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: and family that you follow, and more likely to see 399 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: stuff that Instagram thinks you want to see. So for 400 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: some people that might be great because you're discovering stuff 401 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: that you otherwise wouldn't know, but for others, it's very 402 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: frustrating that you're not seeing the stuff you you joined 403 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: Instagram to see. Right. Uh. Then, of course Instagram introduced 404 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: reels back in twenty twenty. It was a pretty obvious 405 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: attempt to copy TikTok and convince users not to jump 406 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: ship to the younger social network, which had limited success, 407 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: but it's another example. You know. Again, if Facebook can't 408 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: buy it, they try to copy it. Uh. There's also 409 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: the ongoing concern that Instagram's model is causing harm to 410 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: younger users, particularly to young women. So back in late 411 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 1: twenty one, Facebook whistleblower Francis Hogan shared internal documents from 412 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: her former employer, and she shared them with journalists and lawmakers, 413 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: and among those documents were discussions about how Instagram was 414 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: potentially contributing to negative mental health conditions for young women 415 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: in particular. Uh, that story is still unfolding. It prompted 416 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: Facebook slash Meta to scrap, at least for the time being, 417 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: their plans to launch a version of Instagram targeting younger users, 418 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: which gets into some pretty dark stuff. But I'm going 419 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: to save the rest for another time because I'm sure 420 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: I'll do episodes about Instagram in the future where we'll 421 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: really dive into all that. Now, the same year Instagram launched, 422 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: there was a similar social network called Path that took 423 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: the stage. So again we're seeing waves of similar networks 424 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: hit at the same time. So this time we're talking 425 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: about the centralized theme of a social network centered around 426 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: sharing photos. Now, Path was founded by Dave Morin, a 427 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: former product manager at Facebook and the Napster founder Sean Manning, 428 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: and a former Napster engineer and future Slack designer named 429 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: Dustin Moreau. In so, like Instagram, Path was a mobile 430 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 1: based social network service. In fact, it remained mobile based 431 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: throughout its history. It would never had a desktop site, 432 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: and it let users share photos with their friends and family. 433 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: But unlike Instagram, Path limited how far and wide users 434 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: could connect. So originally the service would let users connect 435 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: with up to fifty people max. And the implication was 436 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: that Path is really something for users to rely upon 437 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,719 Speaker 1: with their close friends and family, but it's not trying 438 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: to encourage you to share it with every casual acquaintance 439 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: or friends of friends. This would eventually change over the 440 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: course of the services life, which spoiler alert, would ultimately 441 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: come to an end. Path is no longer a thing. 442 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: A Path would later increase the cap to a hundred 443 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: fifty connections, and then ultimately would remove the cap entirely 444 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: because while their approach was meant to give people a 445 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: sense that this is really for your actual community of 446 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: friends and family, that limitation meant Path was inhibiting its 447 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: own growth, and it ultimately meant the Path would not 448 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: reach a level of success and would would fizzle out anyway. 449 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: When it started off, Path had a similar feel to Instagram, 450 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: which was the appeal for for many users um and 451 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: yet it felt smaller than Instagram, and that also appealed 452 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: to a certain group of users. They didn't have to 453 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: worry about their photos being seen by total strangers because 454 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: Path would limit sharing to just their own close contacts. Later, 455 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: Path would incorporate other features that made it similar to 456 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: some of its competitors. Users would be able to post 457 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: updates that were kind of similar to tweets on Twitter. 458 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: They could also use Path to check into locations, kind 459 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: of like four Square or the aforementioned Bourbon But behind 460 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: the scenes, things were not going particularly well. For one thing, 461 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: in twelve, users became aware that Path was recording user 462 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: phone contacts, So if you join Path, it really meant 463 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: handing the company your network of contacts, and at no 464 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: point to Path apparently alert users to this, let alone 465 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: secure their permission, which you know that's a big no now, 466 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: And so the US government got very interested in Path 467 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: and what data the company was actually gathering from its 468 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: users and how the company was using that data, so 469 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: the US Federal Trade Commission or FTC, ultimately would find 470 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: Path eight hundred thousand bucks due to the company storing 471 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: data belonging to underage users in particular, and the US 472 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: government ruled that Path would be subjected to review for 473 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: every two years with regard to its privacy policies and practices. 474 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: On top of that, Path was struggling to compete with 475 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: other social networks like Instagram. It eventually hit a peak 476 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: of around fifteen million users, which is decent, but the 477 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: company still had a fraction of the users that were 478 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: found on bigger social networks. A company called Cacao out 479 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: of South Korea would acquire Path, and while past the 480 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: usage continued to decline in America, it did enjoy a 481 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: modest amount of popula already in Indonesia. However, even that 482 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: would not be enough to keep Path going, and in 483 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: the fall of Kal announced that Path would shut down, 484 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: which it almost immediately did. Okay, we've got some more 485 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: to get through before the end of this episode, but 486 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: first let's take another quick break. Okay, we're back. We're 487 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: up to eleven, and that's when we get a flagship 488 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: product that would mark another concept in social networking, and 489 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: this time it's the concept of disappearing content, as in, 490 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: this product adopted the idea that people should be able 491 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: to share information, and that information should have a limited 492 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: lifespan and after a given amount of time, it disappears forever. 493 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: And I am, of course talking about Snapchat now. Snapchat 494 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: started off as a different named app. It was called 495 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: Peekaboo p I c A b ooh. It was founded 496 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: by three Stanford students, Avan Spiegel, Bobby Murphy, and Reggie Brown. 497 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: And in case you're wondering if the idea was always 498 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: about trying to find ways to convince people to post 499 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: nude and explicit photos and videos, the answers, yes, yes, 500 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: that was the idea the whole time. So just as 501 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: Facebook got its start as a way for Harvard students 502 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: to score how hot their classmates were, Snapchat was all 503 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: about how can we convince people to post risque photos 504 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: of themselves. A lot of startup founders are happy to 505 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: be privileged young men, white men in particular, and they 506 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: are like the worst. And yes, I know I'm editorializing, 507 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: but it's my show and I don't care anyway. The 508 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: story goes that Reggie Brown thought up this idea. He thought, 509 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: if you could make a site that would allow photos 510 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: to only stay up for a given amount of time, uh, 511 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: and then it would disappear forever, you could probably convince 512 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: a lot more young women to post sexy photos of themselves. 513 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: And so then he goes down the hall and he 514 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: tells his buddy and his party partner, Evan Spiegel about it, 515 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: because these guys were total party boys at Stanford, and 516 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: they decided they would pursue this idea. They were like, 517 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: this is a million dollar idea. By the way, my 518 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: guess is Reggie was such a party bro that the 519 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: other two co founders spotted how he might not quite 520 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: fit in with their plans. So in eleven they pushed 521 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: him out of the company. So the guy who allegedly 522 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: came up with the idea of in the first place 523 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: gets kicked out. He would later sue the two co founders. 524 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: He successfully would be awarded more than a hundred fifty 525 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: million dollars. But importantly that was in cash, not in 526 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: a stake in the company, which really important because when 527 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: the company would go public eventually in it turned the 528 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: other co founders into billionaires. So he got a hundred 529 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: fifty million, but the other two became billionaires. Uh that 530 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: same Reggie Brown would later get into trouble with the 531 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: law a couple of times for doing stuff like allegedly 532 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: driving recklessly in luxury cars in South Carolina and also 533 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: allegedly harassing neighbors. He even had a warrant out for 534 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: his arrest at one point, but apparently had left South 535 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: Carolina at the time. But I don't know much else 536 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: about what's happened to him in the years since. Anyway, 537 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: that's all gossipy stuff. Let's focus on the app itself. 538 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: So Peekaboo launched for iOS in two thousand and eleven. 539 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: Brown gets pushed out of the company not long after that. 540 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: By September two thousand eleven, Peekaboo changed his names to Snapchat. 541 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: A year later, Spiegel would write in the first blog 542 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: post for the company, so this is two thousand and 543 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: twelve a sort of pitch for the app, which has 544 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: already been out for a while. And surprise, surprise, he 545 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: left out the bit where the guys developed it in 546 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: the hopes of seeing women take off their clothing. Instead, 547 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: Spiegel said that quote, we're building a photo app that 548 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: doesn't conform to unrealistic notions of beauty or perfection, but 549 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: rather creates a space to be funny, honest, or whatever 550 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: else you might feel like at the moment you take 551 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: and share a snap end quote. So now the emphasis 552 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: was really just on real time ephemeral photo sharing. A 553 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: snap a photo, in other words, would stay open for 554 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: one to ten seconds, depending on what the user had 555 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: set for that photo, and then it would disappear, so 556 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: you get a chance to see it and then it 557 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: was gone. Snapchat launched for Android in two thousand twelve, 558 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: and once again Facebook started to take notice of a 559 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: startup that was one pulling focus away from Facebook properties 560 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: and to attracting younger users, something that Facebook is always 561 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: struggling with. Instagram had given Facebook access to a younger 562 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: audience than what had been on Facebook, and Snapchat was 563 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: giving access to an even younger crowd in the form 564 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: of teenagers. So stories kind of conflict of this next bit. 565 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: But the general sinse I get is that at some 566 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: point early in Snapchat's history, probably around or so, Mark 567 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg made an offer to Evan Spiegel to acquire Snapchat, 568 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: and Spiegel refused. So then Facebook goes and develops an 569 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: app called Poke, which was named after the first in 570 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: Facebook app. That app let users send a little poke 571 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: message back and forth to each other. You would trade 572 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: it off. If you received it, then you could send 573 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: it back and Poke the app was a little different. 574 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: It let users send images to each other, images that 575 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: would automatically delete after viewing or after going unviewed after 576 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: a certain amount of time. Essentially, it was copying what 577 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: Snapchat was already doing. And again, if Facebook can't buy 578 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: its competition, it tries to run them out of business 579 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: by emulating them. Poke briefly got a lot of attention, 580 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: but it was not long before folks kind of bailed 581 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: on Poke and went to Snapchat. So while Zuckerberg I 582 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: had to use the power of Facebook to squash Snapchat, 583 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: at least according to some accounts, that effort failed. Allegedly, 584 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg then offered to purchase Snapchat for three billion with 585 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: a B dollars, but Spiegel turned that offer down too, 586 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: and then supposedly Google made a couple of offers to 587 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: purchase Snapchat, with one in being for thirty billion dollars 588 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: that's ten times what Zuckerberg had offered, and they still 589 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: got a no thanks. Snapchat, the company which would later 590 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: become Snap Incorporated, would introduce other features over time. Tons 591 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: of camera effects would increase snapchats appeal among young users, 592 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: who could make themselves look like, you know, puppies or 593 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: monsters or I don't know, kids, I don't know what's 594 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: wrong with these kids today? Kids who can understand anything 595 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: they say that takes me back anyway. Users would eventually 596 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: be able to send short videos to one another in 597 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: addition to photos, also with the feature that the videos 598 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: would disappear after viewing. Spiegel and team were aiming at teenagers, primarily, 599 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: you know, kids who didn't want to be on Facebook 600 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: because that's where their parents were, um, nor did they 601 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: necessarily want the restrictions in place on Instagram. The immediacy 602 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: and the temporary nature of snaps was what was attractive 603 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: to its users. Snap would also introduce stories that let 604 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: Snapchat users post a series of photos and videos to make, 605 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, a story. But the big difference here is 606 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 1: that a Snap is something that a user could send 607 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: to a specific person or group of people. So let's 608 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: say you took a funny pick of your dog and 609 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: you send it as a Snap to your friend who 610 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: happens to love your dog, but you don't, you know, 611 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: blasted to everybody else who couldn't give a crap about 612 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: your dog. I like your dog, Don't get me wrong, 613 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: I love dogs. Some of your friends are real jerks. 614 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,720 Speaker 1: But the story, on the other hand, becomes a series 615 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 1: that anyone following your account can view. So a snap 616 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: is kind of a one to one and a story 617 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: is kind of a one too many. Snapchat also introduced 618 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: a chat feature that doesn't keep an ongoing log for 619 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: that chat, So when you do open up a chat, 620 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: you can read the most recent messages, but nothing before that, 621 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: and anything you post will go to the other person, 622 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: but they also won't see the full history of the 623 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: chat log. It provides a bit more privacy between the 624 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: two communicators. Now, the US Federal Trade Commission, or FTC, 625 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 1: looked a little bit closer at Snapchat. It was suspicious 626 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: that perhaps the site wasn't quite as diligent or as 627 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: forthcoming about the disappearing nature of material on the service 628 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: as it claimed to users. So the fear was that 629 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: people were posting images and believing them to only be 630 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: around temporarily, and thus there was no real risk to 631 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: privacy when in fact those images might be sitting on 632 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: servers somewhere, or there were third party tools that would 633 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: allow people to record things that were posted to Snapchat, 634 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: and Snapchat was not alerting users to this like it's 635 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: You could argue, it's not Snapchat's responsibility to uh to 636 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: to look after all these third party things, but you 637 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 1: could argue it is that's responsibility to let users know, hey, 638 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: this is an issue, and they weren't doing that. So 639 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: the FTC argued Snapchat had deceived users with regard to 640 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: the disappearing nature of the media that was shared on 641 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 1: the service. So the FTC pointed out a few ways 642 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: that snaps could outlast what Snapchat had claimed, and in 643 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: the end, Snapchat agreed to pay a settlement to the 644 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: FTC over these and other issues. Is including the fact 645 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: that Snapchat was apparently harvesting location data from Android users 646 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: while not disclosing that in terms of service. Snap would 647 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: also introduce a tool called Discovery, which allowed brands to 648 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: post content on Snapchat. I'm not gonna go further into 649 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,479 Speaker 1: that because I feel like that's really more of something 650 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: I can chat about in a full episode about the company, 651 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: and in Snapchat introduced spectacles. These are physical glasses that 652 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: have built in cameras. In the frames, they the camera's 653 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: face outward, obviously because who wants to just see, you know, 654 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: the skin on the temple of the person wearing it, 655 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: and they compare with a smartphone and thus record very 656 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: short snippets of video. They were initially sold through a 657 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: proprietary vending machine called snap Butt, but you could later 658 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: pick them up online. When Snapchat, now known as Snap Incorporated, 659 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: went public, the stock was to be priced at seventeen 660 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: dollars per share. It would end up selling for more 661 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: than that. Kind of had an up and down first 662 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: day throughout the day, and it ended on twenty four 663 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: dollars and forty cents per share, so above what they 664 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: had planned. That's good news for a company at its 665 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: peak in one shares traded at more than eighty dollars 666 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: per share. Really good right. However, today, as I record 667 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: this episode, they're selling closer to nine dollars forty cents 668 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: per share, which is big, old youch Now, this is 669 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: not the lowest that Snap has ever traded, I should add, 670 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: but it ain't great. This past year, Spiegel sent on 671 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: a memo to all employees, indicating that the company would 672 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 1: be laying off around of the workforce and that it 673 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: would also refocus on the three main areas of development, 674 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: which are community growth, revenue growth, and augmented reality, with 675 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 1: other areas receiving a reduced budget or being eliminated entirely. Recently, 676 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: Evan Spiegel another message, letting employees know that he wants 677 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: them back in the office for eight percent of the week, 678 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 1: so four days out of the week for most folks. 679 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: Spiegel has indicated that he thinks that the company isn't 680 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: seeing as much collaboration as it needs to succeed. This 681 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: is in line with what we've seen with a lot 682 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: of other criticisms that we've heard about working remotely over 683 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: the last year or so. Honestly, I'm not sure how 684 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: realistic that is, Like, does that actually have the big 685 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: impact that business owners think or are these other factors 686 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 1: in the economy having a much larger impact on companies. 687 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: And one of the places that business leaders look to 688 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: blame a thing that they actually have control over is 689 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: whether or not their employees have to come into the office. 690 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: I again, this is me editorializing, but I feel like 691 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,240 Speaker 1: some business leaders fret if they don't have more control 692 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: over their workforce, if they feel like their workers are 693 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: not there for them to look in on and make 694 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: sure that they're actually doing their job as opposed to, 695 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: you know, slacking off or something. They just suspect that 696 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: people won't do their jobs if they're not under the 697 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 1: thumb of the boss at the office, which speaks very 698 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: lowly of their opinion of their employees and my own estimation. Um, 699 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: and I don't think that's necessarily the case. I do 700 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 1: think because it's something they can have control over, they 701 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 1: jump on it. Because even executives, even billionaires, realize there's 702 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: stuff they have no control over and that is terrifying 703 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: to them. For the rest of us, we deal with 704 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: it every day because we're not billionaires, so we have 705 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: less control over lots of stuff in our lives and 706 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: we just cope. But billionaire's they're a delicate punch anyway. Um, 707 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: they won't have to go back into the office until 708 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: February of three, and then at that point they're expected 709 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: to spend of the week they're I'm not sure what 710 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: the reaction has been among Snapchat employees, because this is 711 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: fairly recent news. As a record this episode, but I 712 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: would imagine that a lot of people are not terribly 713 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: happy about it anyway. UM, I should likely do a 714 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: full episode about Snap and Snapchat really to dive into 715 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: the whole thing. That's a quick overview of this odd 716 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: social network. There's a lot more to say. I mean, 717 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: there's a ton of of various criticisms have been directed 718 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: at Snapchat, some in good faith, some not. Uh, there 719 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: are lots of controversies around the service. I mean, it's 720 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: targeting teenagers. But the nature of the app, and when 721 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,359 Speaker 1: you know that the creators, at least at some level, 722 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: we're thinking about a way of encouraging women to take 723 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: naked photos of themselves. That doesn't speak super well, right, Like, 724 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: that's really problematic to put it lightly. But yeah, I'll 725 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 1: leave all that for a future episode because there's multiple 726 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: sides to the story. I don't want to oversimplify it 727 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: and say that this is all a lest civy, this 728 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: attempt to encourage people to take risk a photos. Uh. 729 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 1: Snap has pointed out multiple times they actually have no 730 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 1: way of seeing the content that's sent across their network, 731 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 1: which is both important for user security and it's also 732 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: important for the company's security because if anything ever is 733 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: sent through Snapchat that ends up being dangerous. For example, 734 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: let's say that you know, uh, bad actors, some terrorists, 735 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: whether international or domestic, are using Snapchat to send information 736 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 1: back and forth. Then the company has deniability right if 737 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: they're not able to see what is being sent across 738 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: the network, they cannot be held culpable for facilitating any 739 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: of those communications. So you know, there's that too. It 740 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 1: means that you know, if you if you want to 741 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: be able to have that immunity from culpability, then you 742 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,919 Speaker 1: also can't have access to all the you know, risk 743 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: a photos being sent back and forth. Okay, that's it, 744 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: I'm done being a prude. Well, we'll sign off on 745 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: this episode. We'll be back with more. We're coming up 746 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: on a couple of other interesting entries and hopefully wrapping 747 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: up this series. I hope in the next episode we'll 748 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 1: see um and then the mean time, I'm still working 749 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,959 Speaker 1: on the end of the year episode as well, where 750 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: I'm looking at some of the big stories that have 751 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 1: broken across two in the text space. If there are 752 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,439 Speaker 1: any that you think I should definitively include that don't 753 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: involve Twitter and elon Musk because obviously those are going 754 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: to go in. Then reach out and let me know. 755 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 1: There are a couple of ways you can do that. 756 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: One as you can download the i Heart Radio app. 757 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 1: It's free to download, free to install and use. Navigate 758 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:42,799 Speaker 1: to tech Stuff by putting tech Stuff in the little 759 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: search field, and you can leave a voice message by 760 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: clicking on the little microphone icon. Leave it up to 761 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: thirty seconds and linked. If you like, you can let 762 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: me know to use it in a future episode. Um, 763 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: I won't do it unless you tell me too, or 764 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,320 Speaker 1: if you prefer, you can reach out to me via Twitter. 765 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: The handle for the show is tech Stuff hs W 766 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: and I'll talk to you again really soon. YEA. Tech 767 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: Stuff is an I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts 768 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,960 Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, 769 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,240 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.