1
00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,079
Speaker 1: The Thread is a new hit podcast from Ozzy Media

2
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,640
Speaker 1: that explores history surprising connections in order to discover how

3
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,520
Speaker 1: one thing leads to another, like how movie moguls in

4
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: early Hollywood helps spark the me too movement today, get

5
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,200
Speaker 1: it on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen. Now

6
00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,319
Speaker 1: here's a highlight from coast to coast. Am on I

7
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,600
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Let's move on to the Shroud of Turn,

8
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:28,319
Speaker 1: an incredible piece that truly hasn't been authenticated, where a

9
00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,200
Speaker 1: lot of people think that it could be the imprint

10
00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,879
Speaker 1: of Jesus when he was put in the tomb. You

11
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,040
Speaker 1: think otherwise, what do you think that's that's the claim.

12
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:45,120
Speaker 1: And I I came on the scene all those years ago,

13
00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:54,040
Speaker 1: now about half a century ago, uh, really looking into

14
00:00:55,160 --> 00:01:00,160
Speaker 1: things like that, and the Shroud was ultimately something I

15
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,399
Speaker 1: settled on as a project that really needed to be

16
00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 1: looked at a serious science based skepticism. And most of

17
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,720
Speaker 1: the skeptics were just dismissing it. Oh, it's just another

18
00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,680
Speaker 1: just another silly relic from you know, the days where

19
00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,399
Speaker 1: they used to fake pieces of the Holy Cross and stuff.

20
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,840
Speaker 1: And I saw that the shroud was of a different

21
00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,880
Speaker 1: order that it was. It was something, and it was

22
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,319
Speaker 1: you know, it had an image and it it looked

23
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,119
Speaker 1: more or less realistic, and so forth, and I set

24
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,800
Speaker 1: to work, and I made what little reputation I have today,

25
00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,000
Speaker 1: I think because of the shroud I was. I was

26
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,960
Speaker 1: the guy on the spot with that issue at the

27
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:53,520
Speaker 1: right time, published my first book and became known to

28
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:59,040
Speaker 1: skeptics everywhere for that issue, and built built on that.

29
00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,400
Speaker 1: And and I would just point out that, um, just

30
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,920
Speaker 1: on the face of it, the shroud is contrary to

31
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,640
Speaker 1: the gospel account of John, which describes multiple and separate

32
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,120
Speaker 1: cloth like a separate cloth over the face and tying

33
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,640
Speaker 1: and binding and a hundred pound weight of the burial

34
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 1: spices mirror into lows. Well, right right, I could go

35
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 1: no further. And we're not talking about the shroud of Turing,

36
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,080
Speaker 1: you see, which is a simple, single draped piece of

37
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,800
Speaker 1: cloth and not a speck of these spices. If we

38
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 1: go on, there was no history for the shroud for

39
00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,680
Speaker 1: thirteen hundred years. Where where was it? And the believers

40
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,119
Speaker 1: now like to come up with so called theories that well,

41
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 1: maybe it was hidden away, and they try to equate

42
00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 1: it with the image of Edessa. But the image of

43
00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,520
Speaker 1: Edessa was only a face cloth and and they you know,

44
00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:02,639
Speaker 1: they really have to just um play games with with history.

45
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't show up for you know, is with real

46
00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,280
Speaker 1: evidence for for existing until the middle of the fourteenth century,

47
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 1: at which time a bishop reported to Pope Clement, uh

48
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,520
Speaker 1: and his letter can be read, Holy Father, let me

49
00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,160
Speaker 1: tell you what's going on here in my diocese. This

50
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,200
Speaker 1: is this is just you know, uh, he's why people

51
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,280
Speaker 1: are being hired to pretend that they're they're sick, and

52
00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,480
Speaker 1: then they reveal this fake shroud to them and they

53
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:39,000
Speaker 1: pretend their healed, so that this is exact quote, money

54
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,440
Speaker 1: might be cunningly wrung from the pockets of unsuspecting pilgrims.

55
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,760
Speaker 1: And he goes on to say that eventually the truth

56
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,520
Speaker 1: was attested for the artists who painted it. But it

57
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 1: doesn't have a photographic negative look to it. It does.

58
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 1: It does if you looked at the shroud image and

59
00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,040
Speaker 1: then you looked at a photographic reversal of that, it's

60
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 1: the photographic reversal looks more real and life like. It

61
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: puts the lights and darks more closely to a realistic

62
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,720
Speaker 1: looking picture. And so it was said to have photo

63
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:22,560
Speaker 1: negative properties and and to be miraculous. In fact um,

64
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,840
Speaker 1: the lights and darks have to be looked at it

65
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,919
Speaker 1: with a little more skepticism. Uh. In this scenario the

66
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,240
Speaker 1: beard and the hair are white. Well in a in

67
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,800
Speaker 1: a thirty year old sephardic jew, uh, he would have

68
00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 1: had dark hair. So it's the opposite of what you

69
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 1: would have expected. Still, the picture looks very good, but

70
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 1: it just looks like a white bearded old man if

71
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,640
Speaker 1: you look at the reversal, the photographic reversal. So what

72
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,559
Speaker 1: I found, to make a long story short, is that

73
00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,600
Speaker 1: the lights and darks are exactly what you would get

74
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,360
Speaker 1: if you did an old fashioned rubbing. You know how

75
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,919
Speaker 1: you take a rubbing from a grave stone. You you

76
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:11,160
Speaker 1: put paper over it and you rube. It will hit

77
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:16,240
Speaker 1: the parts will be dark and the other parts will

78
00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,440
Speaker 1: be light. And I showed that you could take a

79
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,120
Speaker 1: bar relief, that is a low relief that would minimize

80
00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,560
Speaker 1: the distortions, you know, eliminate the wraparound effect and so forth.

81
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,120
Speaker 1: And I began to make Shreud like effects that were,

82
00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,599
Speaker 1: you know, according to skeptics, just incredibly good. The proch

83
00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 1: roud people, you know, despised me and sputtered and claimed mind, weren't,

84
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,400
Speaker 1: weren't just quite right and mine were too sharp and stuff,

85
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 1: And I would say, well, you know, they're not six

86
00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,040
Speaker 1: hundred years old, and they're they're not uparaded, but very

87
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,599
Speaker 1: very close. The final word on the shroud is really

88
00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: from the fact that it's The Macron Laboratory found that

89
00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,760
Speaker 1: the image was rendered in tempera red ochre and vermilion

90
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:11,119
Speaker 1: tempera paint um in that radio carbon dating which gives

91
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 1: a date of twelve sixty to range. And multiple labs

92
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,600
Speaker 1: did this, so it's very well supervised by the British Museum,

93
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,480
Speaker 1: very accurate just the time you see of the Forger's confession.

94
00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,599
Speaker 1: That's a powerful fact. I mean, if you just look

95
00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 1: at those two facts, we have a report of a

96
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,440
Speaker 1: Forger's confession middle of the fourteenth century. Why why do

97
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 1: they keep pushing the possibility of authenticity? Then well, I

98
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,880
Speaker 1: think they have a sort of three point plan as

99
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:52,240
Speaker 1: best I can tell. Um if the shroud were authentic.

100
00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,440
Speaker 1: If it were, let's just say it is for the moment, Well,

101
00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:02,560
Speaker 1: then Jesus was a real person, no mythology there. I mean,

102
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,520
Speaker 1: let's let's quit talking about him being some collective figure

103
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,480
Speaker 1: or some hand me down folklore. No, no real, a

104
00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,800
Speaker 1: real god. And secondly that he looks just like artists

105
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:21,600
Speaker 1: had imagined he looked. Fit's the typical you know, um

106
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 1: portrayal of Jesus and has the bloodstains, the wound in

107
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 1: the side, and so forth. So it confirms all that.

108
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,120
Speaker 1: And number three, if if it's inexplicable. If and this

109
00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,640
Speaker 1: is a big part of what the Proture people try

110
00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 1: to do with this photo negativity and other issues. They've

111
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 1: tried to say it's basically inexplicable. This is the old

112
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 1: argument reference I talked about a while ago. See, we

113
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 1: don't know how it was made, therefore it's a miracle.

114
00:07:54,480 --> 00:08:00,520
Speaker 1: It's the same old um illogical bait and switch, and

115
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,640
Speaker 1: so they're hoping to convince you that it's miraculous because

116
00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,800
Speaker 1: we don't know if it's a fake. Though. They did

117
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 1: a great job with it. Well it is. It is

118
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 1: really uh, you know, a good workman like piece of

119
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 1: it's a good piece of work. There are a number

120
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: of mistakes my book inquest on the Shroud of Tour,

121
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 1: and of course George has has details these mistakes, but

122
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,760
Speaker 1: but they're very good. I mean, you know, just the

123
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,800
Speaker 1: blood is still bright red. Um. You know, there there's

124
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 1: contradictions and parts of the anatomy, and there are things

125
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,480
Speaker 1: the hair for example, Um, if you if you look

126
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 1: next time you see a picture of the shroud, notice

127
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,240
Speaker 1: how it looks like the figure is standing upright and

128
00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 1: the hair is hanging down on either side of the

129
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 1: face as if the figure were standing, whereas if if

130
00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 1: the figure were lying down, the hair would splay out.

131
00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 1: And there's just lots of things like that. In the

132
00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,800
Speaker 1: blood stains looked like they're neatly painted, like little picture

133
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,520
Speaker 1: made rivulets painted with with a brush, and in fact

134
00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,800
Speaker 1: real blood. And the famous medical examiner Dr Michael Biden,

135
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 1: uh maybe maybe America's most famous medical examiner, he was

136
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,240
Speaker 1: on my research team, and he pointed out that real

137
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,240
Speaker 1: blood would have soaked into the cloth and spangled and

138
00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,920
Speaker 1: run among the fibers. That wouldn't have left little pictures

139
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 1: of of the blood or imprints of the blood. Dried

140
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: blood would have left nothing, and the other would have

141
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,760
Speaker 1: you know, stuck to the body, is soaked into the

142
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,800
Speaker 1: cloth and so forth. So once you once you really

143
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 1: go over it with a skeptical eye, it's just miserably

144
00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,880
Speaker 1: mistake prone. But if you start with confirmation bias and

145
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,240
Speaker 1: of the words, you just believe this is the shroud

146
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 1: of our Lord. And then the test is if you

147
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,560
Speaker 1: can find a way to make something seem authentic, than

148
00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,679
Speaker 1: you just count it with no more questions, and if

149
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't appear to fit, you just dismissed that on

150
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 1: some pretext, Joe, is there a need for people? Is

151
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:26,559
Speaker 1: there a need for the human mind to have miracles

152
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,440
Speaker 1: and wondrous things like the shroud of Turin? I think so.

153
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,199
Speaker 1: I mean, I think certainly if you look back to

154
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,240
Speaker 1: our ancient ancient ancestors. Of course, they didn't understand so

155
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 1: much that we do as to what's in the sky

156
00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,680
Speaker 1: and how things worked, and things were just supernatural. I

157
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 1: mean you could see them someone who they thought was

158
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,280
Speaker 1: dead would come back to life. Well, my goodness, today

159
00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 1: we would see how that could be explained. But they

160
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:09,959
Speaker 1: need to explain is powerful and so you make up explanations. Well,

161
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 1: they're supernatural beings, There are invisible beings. There, there's a

162
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,080
Speaker 1: God and he's in charge, and they're powerful forces, and

163
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 1: those those things fill in for we don't know. And uh,

164
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:28,520
Speaker 1: I think that's that's very very human. But science is

165
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,440
Speaker 1: a different mode. And and if we're voting, I'm going

166
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:38,560
Speaker 1: to vote for science because it's powerfully explanatory. It's just

167
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,920
Speaker 1: the things that can be explained today that that we're

168
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 1: not explainable hundred years, two hundred years of further back

169
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,839
Speaker 1: you go, the more science looks just utterly remarkable. Listen

170
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,000
Speaker 1: to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one

171
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 1: a m. Eastern and go to Coast to Coast am

172
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 1: dot com for more