Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Civic Cipher. I am your host, Rams.
Speaker 1: This is Jack.
Speaker 2: They call me q Ward most of the time, except
Speaker 2: some people call me Quentin, and then some people call
Speaker 2: me Quentin, but my name is Quinton, so then I
Speaker 2: just prefer q Oh if that makes sense to everybody.
Speaker 1: And Q war that works around here. I'm not mad
Speaker 1: at it. And we are back again to discuss some
Speaker 1: very important goings on through the lens of black and
Speaker 1: brown folks in this country. That's what we do here
Speaker 1: on Civic Cipher, So be sure to stick around because
Speaker 1: we got a lot in store for you, not the
Speaker 1: least of which is an opportunity for us to stand
Speaker 1: in solidarity with our that's the word I want to use,
Speaker 1: disabled perhaps brothers, these sisters. Also, we're going to be
Speaker 1: uh talking a bit about children and how they develop
Speaker 1: their views on race and what can be done about
Speaker 1: that and where critical race theory fits into that narrative.
Speaker 1: We're also going to talk about a couple of other things,
Speaker 1: not the least of which is an interesting Baba segment
Speaker 1: that has become a better ally with some great advice
Speaker 1: on how you can stand in support of your brothers
Speaker 1: and sisters as they interact with the police, and a
Speaker 1: lot more besides that. So it's funny to stick around
Speaker 1: for today's show. And first we want to start off
Speaker 1: with something that we like to call ebony excellence exactly
Speaker 1: with you, kar Yes, sir, yes, So I'll jump in here.
Speaker 1: All I do is win no matter what. For those
Speaker 1: who don't know, there is a NASCAR driver by the
Speaker 1: name of Bubba Wallace and Bubba is half black, half white.
Speaker 1: Here we call that black, and he's actually really good.
Speaker 1: He's from a team that is owned by Michael Jordan,
Speaker 1: so Jordan is one of the early investors. And recently
Speaker 1: he became the second black person to win the Cup
Speaker 1: Series since nineteen sixty three. That's NASCAR's like Premier race
Speaker 1: and the first person was Hall of Fame driver Wendell Scott.
Speaker 1: But again making history, you know, moving you know, things forward,
Speaker 1: and of course we know NASCAR is really primarily you know,
Speaker 1: there are Caucasian people that you know, race and NASCAR,
Speaker 1: and so for Bubblah, while it's not only to be
Speaker 1: able to participate, get a lot of support it. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you remember Q, but might have been.
Speaker 1: Last year we did a story about someone finding a
Speaker 1: noose in his garage, which turned out to just be
Speaker 1: something that was left over from the year prior. So
Speaker 1: it wasn't what they thought it was, thank god. But
Speaker 1: hold on second, So.
Speaker 2: The way that that was reported, people tried to make
Speaker 2: it seem as if he was mistaken. He was not.
Speaker 2: It was a noose, definitely. It's very very important to
Speaker 2: point that. Part of that part is want to say that,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it wasn't for him or all these
Speaker 2: other things. It was a noose. It was definitely that.
Speaker 2: It's not like it's the only way you can tie
Speaker 2: a rope to pull a garage down. So I don't
Speaker 2: want to completely pretend like that had nothing to do
Speaker 2: with him like they did.
Speaker 1: No. No, you're absolutely right. But you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of Ebony excellence, he's persevered, He's been well supported by
Speaker 1: the other NASCAR drivers, and you know, now he's the champion.
Speaker 1: So kudos to Bubba Wallace.
Speaker 2: And Rams is just to point out not just the
Speaker 2: second since nineteen sixty three, but the second ever ever, right,
Speaker 2: so windows Scott was the first ever and he didn't
Speaker 2: even get his I think his family didn't even get
Speaker 2: his trophy until posthumously. Like I think after he passed
Speaker 2: away they finally got the trophy to his family because
Speaker 2: it was some type of I know, they didn't let
Speaker 2: him Yeah, they didn't let him win that easily. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think they even made him drive a couple extra laps,
Speaker 2: like let's just make sure he won, like some type
Speaker 2: of controversy. So, you know, shouts out to Bubble Wallace
Speaker 2: and shout out to the people who are trying to
Speaker 2: discount the way that he won. NASCAR drivers win racists
Speaker 2: that aren't finished due to weather all the time, so
Speaker 2: now that he's done it, they want to try to
Speaker 2: discount it. So shouts to Bubble wirelace Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to be the ones to say shout
Speaker 1: out to Bubble Wilace if no one else. So hats off.
Speaker 1: And now more into real news. Now here's something that
Speaker 1: I have to remind all of our listeners of, and
Speaker 1: that's that there is a tremendous amount of news stories
Speaker 1: that we have to go through every week, and we
Speaker 1: have to whittle it down into things that we feel
Speaker 1: are important and you know, help us have the conversations
Speaker 1: that I think will lead to us having stronger relationships
Speaker 1: with each other as brothers and sisters in this country.
Speaker 1: With that said, we leave so much. There's so many
Speaker 1: stories that I really, really absolutely feel like I need
Speaker 1: to tell. There's so many things that I need to
Speaker 1: give perspective to, and you know, we need to understand
Speaker 1: it together. We need to have our therapy together, whatever
Speaker 1: it is, and because of the way time works, we're
Speaker 1: just not able to do that. And this week's topics,
Speaker 1: you know, they were very difficult to choose, but you know,
Speaker 1: I recognize that this week and next week we are
Speaker 1: going to want to stand as much in solidarity with
Speaker 1: brothers and sisters who don't necessarily look like us or
Speaker 1: have the same walk as us, but certainly have the
Speaker 1: same challenges. And it's about we're about due to share
Speaker 1: the space again. And so this is one such story.
Speaker 1: So this comes from Vice. You know a lot of
Speaker 1: this I took directly from Vice. But this will help
Speaker 1: me paint the picture for you when Brady missed it.
Speaker 1: A deaf man living in Idaho Springs, Colorado, was pulled
Speaker 1: over by local police one night in twenty nineteen. He
Speaker 1: tried to signal that he couldn't hear officers commands, but
Speaker 1: the cops on the scene allegedly misinterpreted his sign language
Speaker 1: as disrespect, paised him multiple times, and slammed him to
Speaker 1: the ground. Ultimately, Mystic spent four months in jail, where
Speaker 1: he was allegedly denied an interpreter, before all charges against
Speaker 1: him were dropped two years after the September twenty nineteen encounter.
Speaker 1: Mystic is now suing the two officers from the Idaho
Speaker 1: Springs Police Department, the city, and the County Board of
Speaker 1: Commissioners for use of excessive force, failing to recognize that
Speaker 1: he had a disability, and wrongfully incarcerating him. Mister Mystic
Speaker 1: cried out saying no ears. The lawsuit reads defendant Summers ignore,
Speaker 1: ignored mister Mystic's plea, and then tased mister Mystic a
Speaker 1: second time. Defendants knew or should have known mister Mystic's
Speaker 1: lack of speech, hand gestures and or thick tongued articulation
Speaker 1: of words no ears, that he was deaf and could
Speaker 1: not hear or understand the officers. You can't want to
Speaker 1: stop right there. I've seen the video for this one,
Speaker 1: and again, the reason I chose this is because there
Speaker 1: was a lot of videos that I had to sift
Speaker 1: through a lot of heartbreaking videos of people losing their
Speaker 1: life at the hands of the police, and we talk
Speaker 1: about the police a lot on this show. But this
Speaker 1: video was clear, and I think it was necessary to
Speaker 1: help tell the stories of the other videos and the
Speaker 1: other stories that I can't tell. This one is a
Speaker 1: little bit more all encompassing. And this is a person who,
Speaker 1: for all intents and purposes, was born with a strike
Speaker 1: against him. This man cannot hear, or maybe he wasn't
Speaker 1: born that way, but otherwise he's not able to hear
Speaker 1: the way that most of us our And the video,
Speaker 1: you know, he gets out of the car, well, he's
Speaker 1: followed by the police officers. You know, he pulls over
Speaker 1: and you know, goes where he's going. He gets out
Speaker 1: of the car and approaches the police vehicle, and the
Speaker 1: police are yelling at him, screaming, and then they you know,
Speaker 1: start to get physical as they jump out of the
Speaker 1: car and so forth, and he's yelling and screaming. You
Speaker 1: can hear that he doesn't know what's going on, and
Speaker 1: there's a very violent and emboldened reaction from the police.
Speaker 1: They just feel like they can do whatever they want
Speaker 1: to do, especially this officer Summers. There was a male
Speaker 1: officer and a female officer, and to her credit, the
Speaker 1: female officer had a small amount more restraint. And we'll
Speaker 1: see as we read a little bit further that this officer, Summers,
Speaker 1: had gotten in trouble before for I think assaulting or
Speaker 1: a brutal arrest of a seventy five year old man,
Speaker 1: and he was fired prior to this even becoming a lawsuit.
Speaker 1: So this guy has a history of being really violent
Speaker 1: with people where that's not necessary. But back to the
Speaker 1: video happens and we can see it. You know, this
Speaker 1: is body cam footage, so this is what the officers
Speaker 1: are seeing or dash cam footage. We can see that
Speaker 1: he's walking up to the car to investigate, and he
Speaker 1: says that later on, he says, you know, I got
Speaker 1: out of the car and I went to see what
Speaker 1: was happening, you know, what was going on on the
Speaker 1: other side of this thing. He didn't think it was
Speaker 1: for him, and the officers grabbed him, and then in
Speaker 1: the video, of course, they slam his head on the
Speaker 1: concrete and then they take him to jail, and he's
Speaker 1: in jail for four months. And I believe it was
Speaker 1: something about maybe he didn't come to a full stop
Speaker 1: at a stop sign or whatever the case was, some
Speaker 1: reason they originally engaged him.
Speaker 2: So glad you said that very benign reason for this
Speaker 2: whole arrest situation in the first place was a stop
Speaker 2: sign exactly.
Speaker 1: It was something like that. It wasn't a high speech,
Speaker 1: it wasn't then wen't looking for a robbery suspect or
Speaker 1: anything like that. It was just people living their lives
Speaker 1: the way they normally do. They happen to catch this
Speaker 1: and you know, this man gets assaulted and then imprisoned
Speaker 1: and then denied an interpreter. So what I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about is this ready fire aim mentality that we
Speaker 1: see a lot with the police, and it's protected by
Speaker 1: this thin layer of I was. I feared for my life,
Speaker 1: and you know, I try to be fair. I try
Speaker 1: to be fair. Cue. I know that you at one
Speaker 1: point wanted to be a police officer. I know that
Speaker 1: you maybe not a fan of the Second Amendment, but
Speaker 1: you certainly believe in the Second Amendment. I know that
Speaker 1: I'm not that person. You know. I know that I'm
Speaker 1: you know, my earliest memory is very much shaped by
Speaker 1: the LAPD Compton, California and I've always kind of looked
Speaker 1: that police like less like the heroes than most people
Speaker 1: get to. You know, now, I see movies and I
Speaker 1: live in this country, and I recognize that police, for
Speaker 1: better or worse, have their place in society. But the
Speaker 1: way policing is done day to day, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of room for improvement. And some of the ideas that
Speaker 1: I believe in perhaps are a bit more radical than
Speaker 1: some folks taste, and perhaps they're not as radical as
Speaker 1: some folks would like. But this show is not for
Speaker 1: me to get my ideas off. This show is for
Speaker 1: all of us, our listeners, you, me, and our guests
Speaker 1: to discuss what's happening, and perhaps in the midst of
Speaker 1: our discussions we're able to flesh out a path forward
Speaker 1: where we're less angry, we're less afraid, and so forth right.
Speaker 1: But I will say that policing, especially if you are
Speaker 1: allowed to carry a weapon whose only purpose is to
Speaker 1: end to life. You know, all the police in this
Speaker 1: country have that. If the only purpose of that gun
Speaker 1: is to end the life, that's why they built it,
Speaker 1: that's why they designed it, that's why you're carrying it.
Speaker 1: That there's zero room for error. That should be the
Speaker 1: first and foremost and last and only requirement. There's zero
Speaker 1: room for error when it comes to that. And this
Speaker 1: ready fire aim mentality of these police officers. All of
Speaker 1: a sudden, everybody's afraid. And these people want to have
Speaker 1: the hero narrative as well, or people want to give
Speaker 1: them the hero narrative. You know, who knows. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to speak for everyone, but I don't
Speaker 1: think that those two are compatible, because if you're a hero,
Speaker 1: to me, bravery is the first thing that comes to mind.
Speaker 1: You know. There's a story that we didn't get to
Speaker 1: talk about where this was in California and a person
Speaker 1: was having a mental health crisis. I believe this person
Speaker 1: was white, you know, whatever the case was, and he
Speaker 1: had some people call the police to help, you know,
Speaker 1: And as far as I know, I didn't read all
Speaker 1: the details, but you know, in my mind, this is
Speaker 1: what happened. Again, this is in my mind. I don't
Speaker 1: have the details, but these people are calling the police saying, hey,
Speaker 1: there's a problem with someone. This is the problem and
Speaker 1: we need help with it. There's no other numbers I
Speaker 1: can call, but I can't do this alone, right And
Speaker 1: then the police show up one officer shoots another officer,
Speaker 1: and then the guy's dog gets shot. The guy who's
Speaker 1: having the mental health crisis, his dog gets shot. And
Speaker 1: then you take a step back and you look at it,
Speaker 1: and you say, why did we call these guys in
Speaker 1: the first place? These are the heroes. They come and
Speaker 1: shoot each other on accident, and then the dog gets shot.
Speaker 1: This guy you know, and I know people who you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes they connect with animals a little bit easier than
Speaker 1: they connect with people. Some people they don't fit into
Speaker 1: society the same way as other folks do. And it's
Speaker 1: just such a heartbreaking story. And it's a sad story.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure the police would agree that that's a
Speaker 1: sad story and not all encounters in that way, and
Speaker 1: that's a fair thing to say. But this violent approach
Speaker 1: to dealing with almost everything feels, at least the ninety
Speaker 1: percent of the time unfounded. There's another video that we
Speaker 1: didn't get to talk about where this was in Mesa, Arizona.
Speaker 1: And from the video, from the vantage point that we
Speaker 1: see in the video, there's a man with his hands
Speaker 1: in the air and he puts his hands on the
Speaker 1: roof of the car, and you know, he ends up
Speaker 1: getting shot, and I read a little bit more about
Speaker 1: the story. I forget his name, and he deserves that,
Speaker 1: and I'm so sorry, but I didn't expect to go
Speaker 1: in this direction, and my notes aren't here with his
Speaker 1: name on it. But I'll come back. I'll make it right.
Speaker 1: In any event, I believe that based on the name,
Speaker 1: the way I remember his name, he was Hispanic man.
Speaker 1: But you know, the police shoot him and and their
Speaker 1: story is that he reached into his waistband, not that
Speaker 1: he presented a weapon, not than anything, but he reached
Speaker 1: into his waistband and they were under the impression that
Speaker 1: he had a weapon, and so they shot and he died.
Speaker 1: And again from the vantage point, it looks like his
Speaker 1: hands are on the roof of the car, and that
Speaker 1: that was not happening, you know, And I don't know.
Speaker 1: We've learned our lesson on this show to not you know,
Speaker 1: say too much before we can say it. But I
Speaker 1: can say that the lack of restraint in those instances
Speaker 1: when we when we compare them to instances like what
Speaker 1: happened in Kenosha and with Dylan Roof when he shot
Speaker 1: up the church. You know, things like that where the
Speaker 1: police have an infinite amount of restraint. You know, these
Speaker 1: are people with weapons actively shooting. You know, there's nothing
Speaker 1: you know, and so this story, the one we're talking
Speaker 1: about with Brady Mystic, the deaf man in Colorado Springs,
Speaker 1: the violence that they feel is necessary to get a
Speaker 1: hold of the situation. You know, it feels like we're
Speaker 1: they're just bullies.
Speaker 2: I want I want to ask you a question before
Speaker 2: you move on, Rams, Please, are the police creating bullies
Speaker 2: or are bullies actively trying to become police? That's an
Speaker 2: excellent question to you, right, Like are bullies seeing that
Speaker 2: like yo, I can go get it off if I
Speaker 2: do that. Or are normal people being turned into bullies
Speaker 2: by police account I mean by police agencies.
Speaker 1: I think I have a theory, of course, the answer
Speaker 1: is both. You know, there's some people with that their
Speaker 1: bullies and their home life. They have used their wives
Speaker 1: that you know, that's just who they are. They're bigger,
Speaker 1: they're strong, they think that that's how they should live
Speaker 1: their life. I wouldn't take that away from anyone, but
Speaker 1: I think that the greater number is the police creates bullies.
Speaker 1: And we know this when we look at the human
Speaker 1: psychology behind the Stanford experiments. Right, So the Stanford Experiments,
Speaker 1: for those who don't know is please look it up
Speaker 1: to google it and just learn about it. It's really interesting.
Speaker 1: But basically, some students from Stanford enrolled in a study
Speaker 1: and then half of the students randomly were selected to
Speaker 1: be prisoners and half were selected randomly to be the
Speaker 1: prison guards. And they all knew who each other were.
Speaker 1: They all knew in the real world, we're all the
Speaker 1: same people, you know, we all go to the same schools,
Speaker 1: we have the same you know, issue whatever. But in
Speaker 1: this study, people's behaviors started to change, particularly the guards.
Speaker 1: You know, they had, for all intents and purposes, absolute
Speaker 1: power to punish to, you know, whatever, all the students
Speaker 1: who were in prison quote unquote, and the study actually
Speaker 1: had to be terminated because of the amount of abuse
Speaker 1: that was taking place. And you know, with absolute, absolute
Speaker 1: power corrupts absolutely. I think that's how the saying goes.
Speaker 1: And you know, people talk about training, and there's been
Speaker 1: training and training and training for decades, more training, better training,
Speaker 1: you know, even black folks sometimes, uh, you know, we
Speaker 1: pairrot that, oh we're better training, will you know. And
Speaker 1: some of the stories I've read this week. I've seen
Speaker 1: that a couple of times. And you know, training, new theory,
Speaker 1: whatever the case is, that's all well and good, but
Speaker 1: we've seen that it's not nearly as effective as it
Speaker 1: needs to be. A certainly, if we have to have
Speaker 1: zero mistakes, if you're carrying a murder weapon on your
Speaker 1: person and you're able to look to end the life
Speaker 1: of a human being and not be held accountable if
Speaker 1: there's a mistake involved, if you make poor judgment, right.
Speaker 1: But I think that when we examine not just the training,
Speaker 1: but the the mentality and the culture of policing, that
Speaker 1: good old boys network that exists in policing, that blue
Speaker 1: wall of silence that exists in policing, we start to
Speaker 1: realize that policing it's almost like a gang. It's like
Speaker 1: an US versus them, not a Hey, you know what,
Speaker 1: the people are very upset with us from making these mistakes,
Speaker 1: Let's figure out how to make less mistakes. Instead, they
Speaker 1: tend to insulate themselves even further. And the folks that
Speaker 1: mostly benefit from policing in this country are very easy
Speaker 1: to convince that you know, policing serves your interests, so
Speaker 1: help us and support us and wave this flag with
Speaker 1: a blue stripe on it.
Speaker 2: And don't you dare hold us accountable.
Speaker 1: For anything exactly. You know, there was enough how dangerous
Speaker 1: our job is. Yeah, and there's another story. I'm glad
Speaker 1: you mentioned that. There's another story we didn't get to
Speaker 1: talk about. And you know, on the right, there's this
Speaker 1: narrative that George Floyd should not be made into a
Speaker 1: hero because he had a criminal past. And there was
Speaker 1: an unveiling of George Floyd's statue I believe he was
Speaker 1: in New York City, and a couple of days after that,
Speaker 1: someone threw paint on it, right to deface the statue,
Speaker 1: and of course people were immediately out there clean enough
Speaker 1: the paint or whatever, because that's what exists. George Floyd
Speaker 1: should not be made into a hero. Right. But then
Speaker 1: in Texas this might have been you know, a handful
Speaker 1: of days ago, maybe a week ago. There there's this
Speaker 1: motion that's been approved to exonerate George Floyd from the
Speaker 1: crimes that he committed after another investigation of what actually
Speaker 1: went on. You know, he's not the criminal that folks
Speaker 1: made him out to be. He was a normal person
Speaker 1: living a normal life. And in the same way that
Speaker 1: Emmett Tiel. You know, history remembers him as you know,
Speaker 1: one of our heroes or one of the great names
Speaker 1: that we remember. You know, he lived fourteen years. He
Speaker 1: didn't do great things. His biggest contribution to African American
Speaker 1: history is just dying getting dragged behind a truck and
Speaker 1: thrown in a river.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not just not just dying, but being brutally murdered.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, but that contribution is not nothing. He paid
Speaker 1: for the advancement of black people and the narrative of
Speaker 1: equality and equity in this country. He paid for that
Speaker 1: with his life, and we all have benefited from it
Speaker 1: us today right now. And the same is true with
Speaker 1: George Floyd. And if the way that we keep those names,
Speaker 1: the way that we ensure that those lives weren't lost
Speaker 1: for no reason, is to you know, have these statues
Speaker 1: in these monuments, then that's our way of you know,
Speaker 1: preserving that. Now. I do want to skip to this
Speaker 1: to the bottom here because we don't have a whole
Speaker 1: lot of time left. But back to Brady Stick. He is.
Speaker 1: He does have a lawsuit. His attorney argues that, you know,
Speaker 1: the officer caused his own injuries, accused the police of
Speaker 1: trying to use the injury to cover up their own
Speaker 1: mishandling of the rest. As we know, more than half
Speaker 1: of police killings are mislabeled. That's facts. That's from the
Speaker 1: New York Times. Later, they found prop money in his
Speaker 1: wallet and they tried to book him on possession of
Speaker 1: forged currency, you know, the play money you can buy.
Speaker 1: They tried to book them on that, and then of
Speaker 1: course those charges were dismissed as well. And you know,
Speaker 1: here's a quote from the guy who says, when I
Speaker 1: got pulled over, I tried to come because the light
Speaker 1: was in my face and it scared me. He said
Speaker 1: in sign language on the footage, I couldn't see and
Speaker 1: I didn't like that, and I was frustrated. I came
Speaker 1: over to see what was going on to me. I
Speaker 1: thought it was someone else. I didn't know I was
Speaker 1: the one. And with that, will take a pause for
Speaker 1: the cause. And now, well watch move my mic back
Speaker 1: like that we can strike.
Speaker 3: Waters from head borders behind him, then the border.
Speaker 1: If you're just tuning in the civic cipher, I'm your
Speaker 1: host Rams's job.
Speaker 2: They call me q board and yes, people, that is
Speaker 2: a variation of my actual giving name.
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, and we still got a lot in store
Speaker 1: for you for the show today, not the least of
Speaker 1: which is the way kids develop their views on race
Speaker 1: when they're young, and how schools are responding and should
Speaker 1: continue to respond. Also, we are going to discuss our
Speaker 1: way black history. Fact, we have three of the five
Speaker 1: ways that prisoners were used for profit throughout US history,
Speaker 1: so we're going to take a look at that as well.
Speaker 2: And still till this day.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, and so I can't wait to get
Speaker 1: your thoughts on those because I want to read them
Speaker 1: and get your response. You usually have like a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot of insightful stuff when it comes to that.
Speaker 1: But first, what we're going to do is discuss how
Speaker 1: to become a better ally. This is our Baba segment.
Speaker 1: So for those that listen to the first part of
Speaker 1: the show, you know we discussed the way police policing
Speaker 1: is oftentimes a ready fire aim scenario. The police show
Speaker 1: up and then they'll shoot before they even know what's
Speaker 1: going on. And then this is able to happen over
Speaker 1: and over again because you know, the police officers are
Speaker 1: able to say they fear for their lives. Right. So
Speaker 1: what I found this on Twitter, and I thought this
Speaker 1: was where mentioning. I'm going to read this to if
Speaker 1: you witness a police interaction, especially with a person of color, film,
Speaker 1: and here's the important part. Narrate loudly. Okay, got your
Speaker 1: camera out. Police are interacting with someone. This is how
Speaker 1: you can be a friend to this person. He is cooperating.
Speaker 1: His hands are empty, He is doing what he is
Speaker 1: told to do. He is holding still, his hands are empty.
Speaker 1: He is not being threatening. He has put his hands
Speaker 1: behind his head as asked. He is not resisting. And
Speaker 1: what it does is it lets the cops know what
Speaker 1: the narrative of the eyewitness is going to be. And
Speaker 1: you know, if you say things like his hands are empty,
Speaker 1: the police should not become violent, even if it turned
Speaker 1: out that this person getting arrested had a weapon on
Speaker 1: his or her person, which, as we know, in this country,
Speaker 1: you have a right to have a weapon on your person.
Speaker 1: You know, right to have a gun on your person
Speaker 1: depends on who you are. Well, yes, but you know
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the constitution. And so if you're filming
Speaker 1: and narrating at the same time, it helps the officers
Speaker 1: to know exactly what is being witnessed and to some degree.
Speaker 1: I believe it holds them a bit more accountable in
Speaker 1: that moment, and that might just make the difference. And
Speaker 1: so I believe that's a great way to become a
Speaker 1: better ally. With that said, how are your kids? Q?
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you asked me that. So my.
Speaker 2: Son is telling me he misses me every day, and
Speaker 2: I can see it in his eyes that he understands
Speaker 2: what he's saying. My daughter realizes that a camera is
Speaker 2: being pointed at her when we're on FaceTime or when
Speaker 2: I'm talking to their mom, and she just simply says
Speaker 2: geese with the largest smile available to a human being.
Speaker 2: So my kids are good. They miss their dad misses them.
Speaker 1: I love that. How old are your babies?
Speaker 2: My son is four as of September twenty, my daughter
Speaker 2: will be two Christmas Day.
Speaker 1: Wonderful. And I've talked about on the show before. You know,
Speaker 1: I have two sons. One is fifteen, it'll be sixteen soon,
Speaker 1: and then I have a seven year old as well,
Speaker 1: you know, and I've had them both since they were babies,
Speaker 1: of course, And I thought this was important because we
Speaker 1: need to talk about race with respect to kids. And
Speaker 1: for the most part, when we talk about race, we
Speaker 1: talk to folks who can understand what race is, that
Speaker 1: people look different, things like this, but we don't really
Speaker 1: get into how early ideas can develop in children. So
Speaker 1: this I got a lot of this researched on. Used
Speaker 1: an article from USA Today. Over the past few months,
Speaker 1: schools have become under scrutiny over how they teach students
Speaker 1: about race and racism. A recent USA Today IPSIS poll
Speaker 1: found most parents believe children should learn about the ongoing
Speaker 1: effects of slavery and racism in US society, but slightly
Speaker 1: less than half support the teaching of critical race theory.
Speaker 1: And I didn't know that. I figured that the majority
Speaker 1: of people would support it, but it says slightly less
Speaker 1: than half, which doesn't necessarily mean slightly more than half
Speaker 1: are opposed to it. You know, there's usually a no
Speaker 1: opinion somewhere in there, but I just didn't know that
Speaker 1: the numbers were that close, And there.
Speaker 2: Actually used to be a no opinion sector. Almost everything
Speaker 2: is polarizing now, like you know what I'm saying, Like
Speaker 2: people are very very strong on one side or the other,
Speaker 2: even on things they have no idea about. We've done
Speaker 2: a very very good job of dividing ourselves on both
Speaker 2: very critical, important and very small trivial things. So sure,
Speaker 2: there's less people that will honestly say I don't know
Speaker 2: now than people who are clueless but still very passionately
Speaker 2: and vehemently argue a point of view, even if they
Speaker 2: don't really have a take or a stance on it.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, but I think that you know, credit where it's due,
Speaker 1: not the happy type of credit, positive credit, but the
Speaker 1: right the right wing media is very very good at
Speaker 1: making boogeymen out of really necessary and helpful things. Anything
Speaker 1: that is doesn't maintain the status quo, anything that erodes
Speaker 1: white supremacy to any degree is challenged on all fronts.
Speaker 1: Critical race theory, critical race theory. This is, this is,
Speaker 1: this is controversial, and they're so successful at scaring people
Speaker 1: with it. It's a teaching that takes place in school.
Speaker 1: This isn't a virus, there is, there's nothing like that.
Speaker 1: This is we're going to teach our kids more stuff.
Speaker 1: They might not know this, so let's teach them that too.
Speaker 1: And there are people opposed to children learning because of
Speaker 1: how right wing media is able to do this. They
Speaker 1: can do this with climate change, they can do they
Speaker 1: can do this with anything. It's the wildest thing. They
Speaker 1: get a couple of people who go against the flow,
Speaker 1: you know, the challenge what popular conventional wisdom is. I'm
Speaker 1: surprised they don't have more flat earthers on, you know,
Speaker 1: just because it's so fringe. But you know, I digress.
Speaker 1: You know. Slightly less than half support the teaching of
Speaker 1: critical race theory in US society. In that same USA today,
Speaker 1: sash ipsis Pole parents were most likely to say children
Speaker 1: should start learning about racism in kindergarten, which is the
Speaker 1: youngest age group they could select. Children will be exposed
Speaker 1: to racism regardless of whether they learn about it in
Speaker 1: the classroom, experts say, so that is one sort of
Speaker 1: silver lining there is that folks for the most part
Speaker 1: will say that, yes, we need to teach children what
Speaker 1: race is and that racism is bad at a very
Speaker 1: young age. Right, Perhaps folks have come to the realization
Speaker 1: that if they don't teach their children, then perhaps other
Speaker 1: children might teach them, you know, and the other folks
Speaker 1: opinions might indoctrinate their kids, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And so let's teach our kids to be good people
Speaker 1: so that you know, Billy Bob's dad's ideas that he
Speaker 1: taught to his five year old don't make their way
Speaker 1: into my five year old's head, you know, or whatever.
Speaker 2: Here's a super interesting take rams.
Speaker 1: What's up.
Speaker 2: It's not that they don't want their kids to be
Speaker 2: taught that racism is bad, because even racist people think
Speaker 2: racism is bad. That's why they're insulted when you call
Speaker 2: them racist. So it's their children learning that the country
Speaker 2: that they love and maybe even their own parents are racist.
Speaker 1: That's the fear.
Speaker 2: Like man, my parents think and behave and subscribe to
Speaker 2: that way of thinking and that way of life. And Wow,
Speaker 2: America the Greater and America the Beautiful was founded on,
Speaker 2: built upon, and still thrives on the subservent, lesser than
Speaker 2: human treatment and viewpoint of people of color. And the idea,
Speaker 2: like you said, it's the idea of anything that pokes
Speaker 2: away at white supremacy and that shines a light on
Speaker 2: the white supremacy in this country that's cloaked in that
Speaker 2: beautiful flag. That's the pushback. It's not don't teach our
Speaker 2: kids that racism is bad. We agree that racism is bad.
Speaker 2: That's why we aren't racist. Don't shine a light on
Speaker 2: how racist we really are. And don't you dare imply
Speaker 2: that this country's foundation has any roots whatsoever is in
Speaker 2: or white supremacy.
Speaker 1: Well there's another thing that I mean in that in
Speaker 1: the more extreme viewpoints of this, well, I guess the
Speaker 1: most extreme is to not teach anything. But you know
Speaker 1: there is in order to teach American history, you do
Speaker 1: have to deal with race. You just have to. There's
Speaker 1: no way around that one. That's like right in the
Speaker 1: middle of the street, you're going down right. But you know,
Speaker 1: they'll try to change the narrative. You know, workers were
Speaker 1: brought from Africa, you know, instead of slaves. You know,
Speaker 1: they'll you know, rewrite the story. And what a disadvantage
Speaker 1: these children would be that, you know, for having learned
Speaker 1: things in a whitewashed way so that they could love
Speaker 1: the country more. I don't like people, and I might
Speaker 1: get in trouble for saying this, but people that love
Speaker 1: this country so much, I think they're they're missed that
Speaker 1: they have to be missing something, you know, because it's
Speaker 1: it's a country. You I'm sure you can love it
Speaker 1: in the same way that you love breathing air, you know,
Speaker 1: but it's it's there, you know, and and really if
Speaker 1: you weren't really, if love is the word that comes
Speaker 1: to mind, I'm all for that. I love the word love.
Speaker 1: But to look at it like it's finished, it's perfect,
Speaker 1: there's no problems with it. It's either extremely self centered
Speaker 1: view that you have of the country where it's perfect
Speaker 1: for you, you know, or it ignores the reality. It's delusional,
Speaker 1: you know. And for those people that it just has
Speaker 1: to be there, they listen, it makes me slightly uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: And I don't want my children to go through this,
Speaker 1: and I don't want anyone to call me racist. And
Speaker 1: you know, listen, we all have to grow, we all
Speaker 1: have to learn. I'm a man, and you know what
Speaker 1: I have to do all the time. I have to
Speaker 1: listen to women and not say anything. That is a challenge.
Speaker 1: That is a current challenge that I'm dealing with. You know,
Speaker 1: I for some reason think that I can talk not
Speaker 1: just with women but with men, you know, all the time.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to women. Lately, as I've been
Speaker 1: reading and learning how to be a better man and
Speaker 1: a better brother to my sisters that I share this
Speaker 1: plant with, I recognize that women oftentimes don't feel heard
Speaker 1: in having a conversation with men, and even if I'm
Speaker 1: not the reason for that, I do have an opportunity
Speaker 1: to perhaps help write a different story, and so I'll
Speaker 1: own it. I'll take it. I'm going to listen. You know.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to offer any advice. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to unless you ask for it, you know. And I
Speaker 1: don't look at the world like, oh, this makes me
Speaker 1: slightly uncomfortable. I'm accustomed to saying everything that comes into
Speaker 1: my brain, Nope, you need something, and I'm able to
Speaker 1: give it to you. I got you, Let's go. You know,
Speaker 1: James Brown said, this is a man's world, and if
Speaker 1: I got to bring a little bit more balance to
Speaker 1: the universe by listening, I don't think that's a tall order.
Speaker 1: Now that's just me personally, but I think that you
Speaker 1: could find a parallel in there if you are a
Speaker 1: kind and decent human being who's committed to, you know,
Speaker 1: an equitable experience for all of us to share this planet.
Speaker 1: And to be fair, you know, as we stated, there's
Speaker 1: a good amount of people who have a similar view.
Speaker 1: But it's just so interesting now. I do want to
Speaker 1: move on, because here we go at birth. Research shows
Speaker 1: babies look equally at faces of all races, but they
Speaker 1: quickly begin to note physical differences in people. According to Allan,
Speaker 1: who is Rosemary Allen, Sorry I missed that parton. She's
Speaker 1: a professor of early childhood education at the Metropolitan State
Speaker 1: University of Denver. So children begin to quickly notice physical
Speaker 1: differences in people within a few months, to pay more
Speaker 1: attention to faces whose race matches that of their caregivers.
Speaker 1: By nine months, they can lose the ability to distinguish
Speaker 1: between faces of other races if they're not exposed to diversity.
Speaker 1: Absence such exposure, for example, a white baby can distinguish
Speaker 1: between the faces of her white caregivers, but not between
Speaker 1: those of black people. In other words, to babies that
Speaker 1: are not around black people, all black people look the same,
Speaker 1: but white people. It's not true, you know. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure that because we're dealing with babies, it's the opposite
Speaker 1: or the inverse of that is true as well, you know.
Speaker 1: And what we're talking about is a preference. We're talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, how you frame the world. This is not
Speaker 1: to suggest that racism is something that develops on its own,
Speaker 1: you know, in early childhood, but it is to suggest
Speaker 1: that exposure to different types of people in early childhood
Speaker 1: certainly allows for children to be more receptive to different
Speaker 1: types of people as they enter school and as they
Speaker 1: begin to formulate their opinions on the way the world
Speaker 1: works from their place in the world. And again, a
Speaker 1: father of two sons and you know, you're a father
Speaker 1: of a son and a daughter. One who is your
Speaker 1: daughter is two years old. I thought that was very interesting,
Speaker 1: and that's something that is not necessarily a challenge to
Speaker 1: white people, but to all people. You know, if this studies,
Speaker 1: if studies like this suggest that diversity enriches our lives,
Speaker 1: helps us to be more empathy, to understand each other better,
Speaker 1: to move more in sync with each other as opposed to,
Speaker 1: you know, on opposite ends of a spectrum, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, as you mentioned, is really what's been happening
Speaker 1: a lot lately in this country. Then early and frequent
Speaker 1: exposure to other types of people is absolutely helpful. But
Speaker 1: I would take it a step further, you know, because
Speaker 1: you know, we've been talking about critical right theory in schools.
Speaker 1: I would go so far as to say that that
Speaker 1: type of exposure not just to people, but to information
Speaker 1: about who are these people. Where do they come from,
Speaker 1: Where do their problems come from? What are the things
Speaker 1: that make them happy? What are the things that make
Speaker 1: them afraid? We're going to share this planet, We're going
Speaker 1: to share this country. Let me try to make sure
Speaker 1: that I understand as much as I can about who
Speaker 1: I'm sharing this country with. I need to learn about me,
Speaker 1: but let me learn about these people too. You know,
Speaker 1: when I was in school, I learned about all kinds
Speaker 1: of stuff. You know, I went to school and then
Speaker 1: went back and then went back, So that thirst for
Speaker 1: knowledge was it. I mean, I wouldn't say too much
Speaker 1: about trigonometry classes and you know econ and finance. You know,
Speaker 1: I was a business major. But there's a lot to
Speaker 1: be said about learning about different people. There's a lot
Speaker 1: to be said about learning things that you otherwise wouldn't know.
Speaker 1: And again, this attack on critical race theory. I think
Speaker 1: that this study suggests above all else that we need
Speaker 1: to celebrate and learn about each other's differences in schools. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this last thing, and I want to
Speaker 1: get your thoughts. By the time they're two years old,
Speaker 1: many children uh demonstrate a strong preference for their own race,
Speaker 1: and by three, they begin to categorize people based on
Speaker 1: their race. It's during these early experiences that implicit biases,
Speaker 1: preconceived often negative perceptions about people who are different, begin
Speaker 1: to entrench themselves in children's minds. What do you think
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 2: As not just a father, not just a father of
Speaker 2: black children, but like you, a father of mixed children.
Speaker 2: I often ask myself, my friends, like you, my mother,
Speaker 2: and even people in the scholastic and academic world, in
Speaker 2: the psychology and sociology world, how and when do we
Speaker 2: have these conversations with our children? Because not only are
Speaker 2: amlite children growing up in a country where they will
Speaker 2: have neighbors and classmates and people that they come into
Speaker 2: contact with that are racist. That's just a fact, but
Speaker 2: they will at some point in their lives, maybe even
Speaker 2: having a hard have a hard time fitting into some
Speaker 2: type of subsocial group because they don't fully belong to
Speaker 2: one or the other.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, my children, like yours are black and Hispanic, and
Speaker 2: the last five years, let's just say, to be black
Speaker 2: and Hispanic in this country.
Speaker 1: WHOA Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think our former president campaigned on his hatred and
Speaker 2: disdain for people from s whole countries. He called them
Speaker 2: and for the legion of people marching north from south
Speaker 2: of our borders to rape and pillage, knowing that there
Speaker 2: are people, tens of millions of people that subscribe to
Speaker 2: that thought, and having to raise children in a country
Speaker 2: where people think like that but want to pretend that
Speaker 2: they don't, and then I think they think protect our
Speaker 2: children from these truths. It's sometimes scary, it's sometimes frustrating.
Speaker 2: Similar to what you said, I'm an adult, and I
Speaker 2: still have so much to learn. To deny my children
Speaker 2: the opportunity to or the ability to learn about these
Speaker 2: things that are more important here than probably anywhere else
Speaker 2: on earth would be malpracticed as a parent. So I
Speaker 2: don't pretend to know the right way, and I think
Speaker 2: I have to make sure I remind our listeners. I
Speaker 2: do not pretend to be an expert on any of
Speaker 2: the things that we talk about. I am, however, an
Speaker 2: expert on how they make me feel. And that's what
Speaker 2: you guys listen to when you hear me on this show.
Speaker 2: I'm just telling you how these things make me feel,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, a lot of the times it's not very
Speaker 2: hopeful and it's not very happy.
Speaker 1: Well, one thing I do go ahead bro go ahead. Well,
Speaker 1: one thing that I do love about, at least what
Speaker 1: you offer is, you know, there's not a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are really as good at conveying the full
Speaker 1: emotional weight in a response, verbalizing that and you know
Speaker 1: that's really something that is largely absent from we'll call
Speaker 1: it fact based, you know, news reports in this in
Speaker 1: these spaces, there needs to be a human response to it.
Speaker 1: And so I I think it's wonderful. Now, I do
Speaker 1: want to say this for our brothers and sisters who
Speaker 1: have less melanin. There's a lot that you can do
Speaker 1: with this. Obviously, when it comes to children, you know,
Speaker 1: have your children around different types of people. You know,
Speaker 1: black children, brown children. You know, we our children grow
Speaker 1: up with dolls and watching TV, and you know there's
Speaker 1: white there's white faces are plentiful growing up, but the
Speaker 1: opposite might not be true. And so you know there's
Speaker 1: something that you can do there. Another thing is make
Speaker 1: sure to take this conversation and have it in your home,
Speaker 1: have it with your parents, have it with people. Let's
Speaker 1: learn about each other. I need I need to. You know,
Speaker 1: you teach people how to love you, you know, so
Speaker 1: also be willing to talk you know, be willing to share.
Speaker 1: I think that will go a long way. And I
Speaker 1: want to leave you with a quote from Rosemary Allen,
Speaker 1: the author of this study. She says, in order to
Speaker 1: break the trend, we have to make sure that diversity
Speaker 1: is well presented in the lives of our children. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and moving on, it is time for us to.
Speaker 4: Get into our way black history fact.
Speaker 1: Now, as I mentioned to there's a few things that
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about with this and get your
Speaker 1: you know, response to it. Of course, our way black
Speaker 1: history factor is when we look back in the time
Speaker 1: and we this discuss something you may not have known,
Speaker 1: or to do a little bit deeper dive and is
Speaker 1: something you might have heard of. But you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of black history is you know, very painful. A
Speaker 1: lot of the realities of our you know, time in
Speaker 1: this country is very hurtful. And that trauma, you know,
Speaker 1: there are people who say that that trauma is kind
Speaker 1: of is woven into our dna. You know, it's it's impacted,
Speaker 1: you know, our our responses and how we how we
Speaker 1: feel about things, and how we go about dealing with things.
Speaker 1: And sometimes we're not able to outreason these things. But
Speaker 1: here's another such instance of some traumatic events that happened
Speaker 1: in this country for black people. And again I'm not
Speaker 1: saying this to beat up on anyone or to play
Speaker 1: up the past for any reason other than to say
Speaker 1: it helps for us to understand, because you know, one
Speaker 1: domino knocks over the next domino over the next, over
Speaker 1: the next, over the next, and then if you only
Speaker 1: look at what happened at the end, you're not getting
Speaker 1: the full picture, you know. So this comes from PBS
Speaker 1: dot org. Five ways prisoners were used for profit throughout
Speaker 1: US history. I'm going to be going through numbers three
Speaker 1: through five because they're the most relevant and based on time,
Speaker 1: that's what we have. So number three, selling children into slavery.
Speaker 1: Before the Civil War, most prisoners in the South were white.
Speaker 1: The punishment of enslaved African Americans was generally left up
Speaker 1: to their owners. Louisiana, however, did imprison enslaved people for
Speaker 1: serious crimes, generally involving acts of rebellion against the slave system.
Speaker 1: A number of these imprisoned slaves were women. Penitentiary records
Speaker 1: show a number of women in prison for assaulting a
Speaker 1: white arson or attempting to poison someone. Most likely they're enslavers.
Speaker 1: Some of these female prisoners became pregnant, either by fellow
Speaker 1: inmates or prison officials. In eighteen forty eight, state legislatures
Speaker 1: passed the law declaring that all children born in the
Speaker 1: penitentiary to African Americans serving life sentences would become property
Speaker 1: of the state. The women would raise the children inside
Speaker 1: the prison until the age of ten, at which point
Speaker 1: they would be auctioned on the courthouse steps. Many of
Speaker 1: the buyers were prison officials, including heads of the companies
Speaker 1: that ran the penitentiary. The proceeds were used to fund
Speaker 1: schools for white children. That is directly from PBS dot org.
Speaker 1: Quick thought, what do you think.
Speaker 2: I was talking to someone about Juneteenth recently, and how
Speaker 2: profound the idea is that the June team's celebration marks
Speaker 2: a moment in history where the people who found out
Speaker 2: that they were free. I don't even know how to
Speaker 2: properly articulate this. The people that found out that they
Speaker 2: were free had already been free when they found out.
Speaker 2: I don't know how to say that and have it
Speaker 2: hit the way that I wanted to.
Speaker 1: I know what you mean, but.
Speaker 2: When the news was delivered to them that they were free,
Speaker 2: they had already been free, and they just didn't know it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But to celebrate in that moment where nothing was done
Speaker 2: to assure you any type of foot forward after that point,
Speaker 2: it's just as scary. No land, no money, no direction,
Speaker 2: no prospects, you know what I mean. So we're reading
Speaker 2: over this and these are things that we've kind of
Speaker 2: known already, and it's just like, not only is there
Speaker 2: this gross not only has there always been this gross
Speaker 2: undertaking abuse, ah, just throwing away complete humane disregard of
Speaker 2: our people. But even in war, women are women and
Speaker 2: children are supposed to be you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: Like they're they're women and children are off limits even
Speaker 2: in war, except when it came to good old America
Speaker 2: and it's abduction, enslavement. And I want to say, if
Speaker 2: they could have had it their way, attempted genocide of
Speaker 2: black people, there was no low they wouldn't go to.
Speaker 1: Well watch this. So I'll read these next two together
Speaker 1: and hopefully we'll get a quick thought from you before
Speaker 1: we close. But number four is replacing enslaved people with convicts.
Speaker 1: After the Civil War, the former owners of enslaved people
Speaker 1: look for ways to continue using forced labor. With Southern
Speaker 1: economies devastated by the war, businessmen convinced Stace to lease
Speaker 1: them their prisoners. Convicts Doug Levies laid railroad tracks, pitcotton,
Speaker 1: and mine coal for private companies and planters. The system,
Speaker 1: known as convict leasing, was profitable not only for the
Speaker 1: lesses but for the states themselves, which typically demanded a
Speaker 1: cut of the profits. Tennessee months made ten percent of
Speaker 1: its state budget from convict leasing. There was simply no
Speaker 1: incentive for lessies to avoid working people to death. In
Speaker 1: many ways, the system was more brutal than slavery. The
Speaker 1: annual convict death rates ranged from sixteen to twenty five percent,
Speaker 1: a mortality rate that would rival the Soviet Soviet gulags
Speaker 1: to come. In eighteen seventy, Alabama prison officials reported more
Speaker 1: than forty percent of their convicts had died in their
Speaker 1: mining camps and then the next one squeezing every dollar
Speaker 1: out of prisoners. Around the end of the nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: states became jealous of the profits that lessies were making
Speaker 1: from their convicts, and Texas, a former slaveholder and prison superintendent,
Speaker 1: began an experiment quote unquote. The state bought two plantations
Speaker 1: of its own to work inmates that were not fit
Speaker 1: enough to hire out as first class labor. As a
Speaker 1: business venture, it was a success. In just over a decade,
Speaker 1: the state was making around one point twenty five million
Speaker 1: in today's dollars from its plantations, exceeding its income from
Speaker 1: the convict lease system. By nineteen twenty eight, the state
Speaker 1: of Texas would be running twelve plantations. States throughout the
Speaker 1: South stopped hiring out their convicts to private businessmen and
Speaker 1: ran their own plantations, keeping all the profits to squeeze
Speaker 1: every dollar they could from their prisoners. Some states instituted
Speaker 1: a trustee guard system, using inmates rather than paid guards
Speaker 1: to watch over their prisons. Typically, prisoners convicted of the
Speaker 1: most brutal were appointed to the job because of their
Speaker 1: willingness to shoot others. If a trustee guard shot an
Speaker 1: inmate assumed to be escaping, he was granted an immediate parole.
Speaker 1: Like slave drivers before the emancipation, certain prisoners were chosen
Speaker 1: to whip inmates in the fields. Arkansas allowed the practice
Speaker 1: until nineteen sixty seven. Shortly after whipping was abolished, its
Speaker 1: prison plantation stopped turning the profit and subsequently closed and Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: there's no real time for a reaction there, but I
Speaker 1: can imagine what yours might be, So you got something
Speaker 1: quick ten seconds.
Speaker 2: January thirty first, eighteen sixty five, the thirteenth Amendment of
Speaker 2: the United States abolished slavery and involuntary servitude except as
Speaker 2: punishment for a crime.
Speaker 1: How about that.
Speaker 2: I do not think that has been re amended to date.
Speaker 1: Exactly, and we're going to have to leave it right there.
Speaker 1: So once again, thank you for tuning in the Civic Cipher.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Ramses Josh as you know they call
Speaker 1: me q war. Yes, indeed, be sure hit the website
Speaker 1: Civiccipher dot com. Download this in any previous episodes, check
Speaker 1: us out on all social media at Civic Cipher, and
Speaker 1: be sure to make a donation. It really likes to
Speaker 1: show both you've been grown for your support. Until next week,
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