1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: for people with something to hide? Have you ever had 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: a bad feeling about somebody, suspect that a partner of cheating, 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: worried about your online reputation? If you answer yes to 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: any of those questions, you may need truth Finder. Truth 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: Finder may reveal court records, bankruptcies, contact information, social dating profiles, assets, 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: and a lot more. You get it all in one 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: easy to read report. Why fork out thousands of dollars 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: to a private eye when you can do the job yourself. 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: Go to truth finder dot com, slash Nancy and enter 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: any name to get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace 12 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: on sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. Investigators say 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: they're closer to solving the mystery of who murdered a 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: federal prosecutor more than sixteen years ago. On a chilly 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: Uptober night in two thousand one, Tom Wales was home 16 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: sitting in his basement office when a gunman shot multiple 17 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: rounds through the window. Officials believe there are people who 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: know critical information that could help solve the case. Tom 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: Wales was targeted, some say because of his job, and 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: if that is true, he would be the first and 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: only U. S. Attorney killed in the line of duty. 22 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: The killer is still at large, and the case was 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: recently the subject of a five part podcast. They say 24 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: it was the perfect murder, but I'm not buying it. 25 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: Investigators aren't buying it either. Why is a state's prosecutor 26 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: a U S attorney no less in the same sentence 27 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: with murder? What does anything have to do with the 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: firing of that U S. Attorney? He wasn't even supposed 29 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: to be home that night? Why why does he end 30 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: up dead? I'm Nancy Grays. This is Crime Stories. Thank 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: you for being with us with an urgent report and 32 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: an urgent story with me. Two very special guests, David 33 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: Payne and Jodie Gottlieb here to help us as we 34 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: try and solve this mystery. They also have their own 35 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: podcast delving into the murder of a well respected prosecutor, 36 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: a federal prosecutor Tom Wells. Also with me forensics expert 37 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, 38 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: and of course Allen the Duke Duke joining me in 39 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: l A first to my longtime colleagues David Payne and 40 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: Jodie Gottli. First of you, Jody, explain to me why 41 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: you are drawn to the murderer of a federal prosecutor. Um. 42 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons is I have a 43 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: history of producing content that bus bat actors engaging in 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: bad behavior. And so I really couldn't believe after sixteen 45 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: years that this case had not been solved. Uh. It's 46 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: one of the highest profile cases in the d o J. 47 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: Department of Justice, and uh, you know, it's been sixteen 48 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: plus years and I still today remained baffled that this 49 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: case has not been solved. You know, this is a 50 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: guy who was not afraid of putting in long, long 51 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: hours in the pursuit of justice. And man, I know 52 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: how that feels. David Paine, I remember as a prosecutor, 53 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: I would beat the street all week and I remember 54 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: I could not afford a good coat, and a lot 55 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: of times I would be out in my little ninety 56 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: nine dollar coat that I got I don't know where J. C. Pennies, 57 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 1: I don't know, and uh, working cases, trying to find witnesses, 58 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: and all weekends I would hold up in the law 59 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: library at the courthouse, and I remember looking out the 60 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: window over the city of Atlanta and thinking, the defense 61 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: attorneys kicked back somewhere right now having a beer, are 62 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: watching a football game. I'm gonna get it over on him. 63 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: And that would give me the strength to just keep 64 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: researching and keep researching the law, to make my legal 65 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: arguments to win in order to get evidence in at 66 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: trial for the jury. It's always one percent inspiration perspiration 67 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: when you win a case. This guy would often work 68 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: late at night pursuing just a as I'm talking about 69 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: a murdered prosecutor, Tom Wells, David Paine, my also longtime colleague, David, 70 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: what drew you to the murder of this stand up guy? Well, 71 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: I saw in him a lot of what I see 72 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: in myself. I mean, he was I was a former 73 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: federal prosecutor as well, to share that same pedigree with you, 74 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,239 Speaker 1: and um he was forty nine years old. As you mentioned, 75 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: he was sitting at home at ten forty at night 76 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: in his house on Queen Anne Hill in Seattle. He 77 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: was doing emails and somebody walked up to his window 78 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: shot him through the daylight basement window. And that case 79 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: remains unsolved. So when when you looked at it. Uh, 80 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: And when Jody and I started looking to find a 81 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: cold case out here in Seattle, this was an obvious 82 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: one for both of us to gravitate towards. You know, 83 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: we don't really hear a lot about who Tom was 84 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: as a person. They used to drive me crazy, David 85 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: that the jury will kind of get to know the 86 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: defendants sitting there in court, he look all pitiful, and 87 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: he'd be well groomed and looking sharp, sitting with a 88 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: fleet of defense lawyers. When I knew he's a thug, 89 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: a killer, a dope dealer, or whatever he was. The 90 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: jury would never know that. But I could never bring 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: in a photo or recollections of the murdered victim. They 92 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: could never get to know the victim because that would 93 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: be inadmissible in a court of law because has no 94 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: bearing on the murder. So they never get to know 95 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: the victim. But in this case, tell me about Tom, David, 96 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: who who was Tom Wales? Well, like everybody, he's a 97 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: complicated human being. And uh, when we started looking into 98 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: this case for our podcast, and we did a ten 99 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: month investigation on this particularly and I love the name 100 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: of your podcast. Somebody somewhere man, that's an awesome name 101 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: because we always say that somebody somewhere knows who did this. 102 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: That is an awesome name. So go ahead. So Tom Wales, 103 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: by all accounts, was as you said, kind of a 104 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: stand up guy, stand up prosecutor. He was a father 105 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: of two kids. He was divorced, but very recently divorced, 106 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: and by all accounts it was an amical divorce from 107 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: his wife. His wife had come out of the closet 108 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: a couple of years before. They shared the home that 109 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: he lived in, the one that he was killed in 110 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: on that faithful night in two thousand and one. Uh, 111 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: he was somebody who was a little bit of an 112 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: Atticus Finch in the community. There was a local um 113 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: high school. Oh right, now, you're really speaking of my heart. 114 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: Because as a little girl, my my sister would bring 115 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: home or school books. She's almost four years older than me, 116 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: and I would finish my work, I would grab her 117 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: stuff and run off with it. Well, particularly not her 118 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: mathwork or science, forget about that. I take her books. 119 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: And when she was assigned to kill a mockingbird by 120 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: Harper Lee, as soon as she put it down, I 121 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: ran off with it. So I guess say, maybe in 122 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: the third or fourth grade, I read to Kill a 123 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: mocking Bird and Atticus Finch became my hero. And then 124 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: many years later, when after my fiance was murdered, I 125 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: didn't know what to do. I couldn't be a school 126 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: teacher anymore. I had to do something, and he really 127 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: inspired me to go into the law. So you're saying 128 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: Tom Wells was an Atticus Finch type person, what do 129 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: you mean by that he was? He was a very 130 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: by all accounts, a very righteous person with a strong 131 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: sense of justice, almost to a fault, And we talked 132 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: about that in the podcast. UM. But one example of 133 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: that is that after there was a local high school shooting, 134 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: he took up the mantle of gun control here in Seattle. 135 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: He became the president of a group called Washington Ceasfar 136 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: and that's one of the places that investigators looked to 137 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: see whether there was a motive for killing Tom was 138 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: because of his work on gun control. So this is 139 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: way before you know the era that we're in right now. 140 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: He was someone who was really out front and outspoken 141 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: on that issue. UM. And in a in an area 142 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: where you know, you get a lot of death, a 143 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: lot of death threats, a lot of blowback from people. 144 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: You know. Just hearing that is is scary. I remember 145 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: during certain prosecutions that I handled, I would have to 146 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: move out of my house. I remember having my door 147 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: back door kicked in, my mailbox destroyed every single day 148 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: of a particular trial that lasted a long time. I 149 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: get the box back up and then coming hit not 150 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: get down again, be followed to my car heckled, blah blah, 151 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: having my car windows beating the in while I was 152 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: in court. Just a lot happens that people never know about. Guys. 153 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to this good 154 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: afternoon everyone. I want to welcome you all into the 155 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: Tom Wales conference room here at the U. S. Attorney's Office. 156 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: I also want to specially welcome the Deputy Attorney General 157 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: of the United States, Rod Rosenstein here. To see, attack 158 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: on a law enforcement officer is an attack on our 159 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: entire justice system. I want to assure you that this 160 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: murder investigation is very active. The main investigation includes over 161 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: subfiles for specific investigative areas of interest and has generated 162 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: over fifty one thousand documents, three times larger than the 163 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: size of the end Rod investigation of the early two thousand's. 164 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: Do you think this case will ever gets sold? I 165 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: hope so. But this is not like a white collar 166 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: crime piecing the documents together case. This is a murder, 167 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: and murders tend to be solved very quickly or not 168 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: at all, and the fact that there has been no 169 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: arrest for sixteen years suggests that it won't ever be solved. 170 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: The two thousand one murder of Assistant United States Attorney 171 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: Tom Wales is both the most complex and simple affair 172 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: we have ever known. The simple part is this someone 173 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: walked up to his window, shot him twice, and sped 174 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: away off Queen Anne Hill in Seattle. But tens of 175 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: thousands of leads and tens of thousands of man hours later, 176 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: we have a case file three times the size of 177 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: one of the largest financial fraud cases in history, and 178 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: no official answer to the question that started this podcast, 179 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: who killed Tom Wales? And why haven't they been brought 180 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: to justice after all these years. Wow, that's a tiny 181 00:10:54,400 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: taste of somebody somewhere investigating the order of a stand 182 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: up guy, A federal prosecutor. Tom Wells murdered as he 183 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: sits working for you, for the people with me. Two 184 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: very special guests David Payne and Jodi Gottlieb, who created 185 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: this podcast. Somebody Somewhere, Let's go to Jody. That night, 186 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: October eleven, he gets home around seven pm. What happens 187 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: just before he's murdered. He is working in his he 188 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: had an office in his basement, and he was sitting 189 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: at his desk, typing emails that he as he had 190 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: done almost every night. And he was corresponding with his 191 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: then girlfriend and about it. Who whoa whoa whoa whoa 192 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: whoa whoa? Who? Who's she? Who's the girlfriend? Marlist de Young? 193 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: She was a court reporter UM, and they worked together 194 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: and they had just started dating. He was newly divorced amicably, 195 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: and he was typing an email and someone snuck into 196 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: his backyard and shot him through a daily basement window 197 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: somewhere around ten thirty to ten fifty uh and then 198 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: he uh the perpetrator navigated off through a back alley 199 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: and um on foot and headed down uh the Queen 200 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: Anne Hill. Interesting joining me forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, 201 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: Professor of Forensics at Jacksona State University. Joe Scott, thank 202 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: you for being with us. What Forensics can we glean 203 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: from this kind of shooting? I mean, the perp didn't 204 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,359 Speaker 1: even come in the home to leave fingerprints or fibers 205 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: or footprints or soil samples we could get to match 206 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: up to maybe his driveway or do anything. So what 207 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: do we do to catch the killer that had the 208 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: goal to gun down a federal prosecutor. He's sitting there 209 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: at his computer working. Yeah, Well, the first thing that 210 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: we would look at nancy at the scene. Our considerations. 211 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: For instance, Uh, we're here that he was shot through 212 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: a window, and it's never been actually stated as to 213 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: whether the window was up or down. If the window 214 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: was closed, Uh, then we would assume that there would 215 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: be glass fragments. We would look for that, and also 216 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: outside of the home in the uh, in the area 217 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: immediately adjacent to this window, we'll be looking for footprints 218 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: in uh, in the dirt, as well as any kind 219 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: of other debris that the individual may have left behind. Uh. 220 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: We're we're assuming that this is a semi automatic weapon. 221 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: It's been stated that it was a three eight mockeroff. UH. 222 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: That means that it would have ejected shell casings. Those 223 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: would be outside of the window more than likely. And 224 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: then of course, that brings us UH to the rounds 225 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: that entered his remains, which would have been recovered at 226 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: autopsy or at the scene if they passed through his body, 227 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,719 Speaker 1: and those are going to have unique identifiers to them. 228 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? Unique identifiers? Come on, speak, 229 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: regular people talk, Joe Scott. Well, we'll be looking for 230 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: a ballistic fingerprint on the surfaces of these weapons, what 231 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: we normally refer to as rifling, Nancy. That's the twist 232 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: that are left behind, the markings from the barrel that 233 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: are transferred to the soft lead of the bullet that 234 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: enters the body. Those things are unique to individual weapons, Nancy. 235 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: What's fascinating about this case is that the FBI has 236 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: indeed reported that the gun used was a macrof. And 237 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: what's interesting about the rifling characteristics that a macrof leads 238 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: is is that they are typically what it's called four right, 239 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: so four lands and grooves with a right handed twist. 240 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: And in this particular case, the rounds that were found 241 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: both inside the house UH and in the body were 242 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: six left and so to explain that discrepancy, UH, the 243 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: FBI concluded that a aftermarket replacement barrel was put on 244 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: that Macrof. Um, we have some barious doubts about the 245 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: analysis that was done. Uh. And there are a range 246 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: of weapons that could have been used in this case. 247 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: You know, every we're throwing around the term of macrov. 248 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: It's a pistol. It is a Russian semi automatic and 249 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: it's named is named Macarroff because of Nikolai Makaroff, and 250 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: it is the Soviet Union standard military police side arm. 251 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: Now you often here nine Uh you hear a Winchester here, 252 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: rug or you don't really hear Macarroff that much? Would 253 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: you agree with that? David? Absolutely, It's a very odd 254 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: choice uh for a murder weapon. Uh. And if in 255 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: fact it was shooting a three eight caliber UM and 256 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: that macrof replacement barrel was a nine millimeter replacement barrel, 257 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: which is the typical issue. You're shooting an undersized bullet 258 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: inside that weapon, which is going to make it less 259 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: power ful. So you have an odd choice of caliber, 260 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: you have an odd choice of weapon. Uh. You'll run 261 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: into reliability issues with that combination. Um. So the whole 262 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: configuration just begs a lot of questions. Well, you know, 263 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: when you hear macrof to me, that that's a very 264 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: significant clue because I've prosecuted a lot of cases, thousands 265 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: literally thousands and thousands, and I can't really remember the 266 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: time I saw macrof being used. You know, the interesting 267 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: And I don't want to get too much in gun 268 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: lore because uh, I don't want my twins around guns. 269 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: I don't want them growing up around guns. But uh, 270 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: guns are out there, and that's the reality of our lives. 271 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: The macroof was actually result of a contest because the 272 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: jour the Russians were replacing their standard issue gun, and 273 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: they actually held a contest to get a new gun. 274 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: And it turned out that's how the macrof was created. 275 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: That that's a story behind that. Now interest Also, you 276 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: were saying something about four to the side. Are you 277 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: telling me that when a bullet travels down the barrel 278 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: of a macroff, it creates a striation or a mark 279 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: on the bullet that definitely proves it was a macrof. Well, 280 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: that is the open one of the open questions in 281 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 1: this case, because a macrof will produce markings that are 282 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: four four right, and in this case the markings were 283 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: six left, meaning six counterclockwise instead of four clockwise more, Well, 284 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: then why are we saying macrof because that's what the 285 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: FBI is saying, and that is it that is at 286 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: the heart of the issue here, because at some point 287 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: in this investigation, the FBI learns that the person they 288 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: believe did it has a MACROF. And really, the question, 289 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: one of the biggest questions that we push on and 290 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: press on in this case is when did the FBI 291 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: learn their suspect pad a macroff. It doesn't sound like 292 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: it matches the bullets. I mean, am I missing something? No? 293 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: So there is one can There is one aftermarket barrel 294 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: that you can put on a macrof that will leave 295 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: six left. Now, now you're talking okay, because just then 296 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm sure I don't know more than FBI 297 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: ballistics experts. So I was trying to reconcile in my 298 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: mind how and hey, they're getting a macroof. Yeah, the 299 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: FBI figured out that there is a way you can 300 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: retrofit a standard macroof with a replacement barrel from a 301 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: company called Federal Arms. It was a Minnesota company and 302 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: that company produced only about thirty five hundred of those barrels. 303 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: So the FBI has literally spent almost sixteen years now 304 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: trying to track down every one of those aftermarket barrels 305 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: across the country, which we find fascinating for a number 306 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: of reasons. But that's the only way they can get 307 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: the get to the conclusion. Can I ask you something? Um? Okay? 308 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: So saying the fansaites a macro off with his attachment 309 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: that will produce six triation marks. Guys, I know I'm 310 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: getting the weeds on this, but it could be very, 311 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: very integral to solving the case. So let me ask 312 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: you the attachment that results in not four, but six 313 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: triation markings on the bullet used in a macro off. 314 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: What's the purpose of the attachment? What does it do? 315 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: Why do I want the attachment on my gun? It's 316 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: it's less an attachment than it is the barrel itself, 317 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: so you essentially open up the gun and replace the tube. 318 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: But why why do I want to do that? There's 319 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: there's two reasons you would do it. One is if 320 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: you got the type of aftermarket barrel that has a 321 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: threaded end to it, if you wanted to put a 322 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: silencer on it for instance, okay, silence or never mind 323 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: st anymore, that's it. Wait, go await, But there was 324 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: a witness that heard this rod that's right, so there 325 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: wasn't a silence or so what that's right? So now 326 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: your other theory would have to be that he replaced 327 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: the barrel and the gun because it had become corroded, 328 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: or he replaced the barrel in the gun because he 329 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: wanted to be able to shoot three a D ammunition 330 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: out of that, which is more common than the standard ambition. 331 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble 332 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: for people with something to hide. Have you ever had 333 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: a bad feeling about somebody? May be suspected your partners cheating, 334 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: maybe worried about your online reputation. 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We're talking about the assassination, the execution 353 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: and murder of a federal prosecutor, stand up guy with children, 354 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: living life, sitting in his computer, minding his own business, 355 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: when he's gunned down in his own home through the window. Now, 356 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: I can just tell you right now, this was not 357 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: a domestick dispute. It has no markings of a domestic dispute, 358 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: and the recently divorced wife has an airtime ALBI. It 359 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: was not her. What does it leave me to believe, 360 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: based on what I know, that this was an execution, 361 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: possibly for hire. Listen to this. There is something about 362 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: this case that sticks in the craw of anybody who 363 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: looks at it in any depth, and it seems like 364 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: the only way to get it unstuck, at least if 365 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: you're a journalist, is to see for yourself what it 366 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: was about whales work as a prosecutor that may have 367 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: gotten him killed. I've been going through every pleading that 368 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: has the word Whales in it for the past couple 369 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: of days. You mean in his works eighteen years? Oh 370 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: my god, all the way back, all the way back, 371 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: all the way back, and I'm still trying to find 372 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: that nugget too. My review of Tom's caseload would take 373 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: me about two weeks in total. It is my numbing 374 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: and tedious, and I feel genuine empathy for the FBI 375 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: investigators who surely traveled this road before me. I'm looking 376 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: for evidence for how Tom comported himself, how he managed 377 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: his caseload with please or trials, and how he represented himself. 378 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: Was he capricious? Vindictive? Look, we've all known them, the 379 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: arrogant lawyers? Was some modicum of power. I wanted to 380 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: make sure I wasn't blaming the victim. Of My thinking 381 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: was this, if Tom was killed in the line of duty, 382 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: maybe he had done something unusual to instigate it, and 383 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: that created a motive or had he simply poked the 384 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: wrong bear. Coming through the government databasis, I learned a 385 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: lot about Tom, at least about his job, his career, 386 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: and choices. Frankly, I wasn't prepared for what I found. 387 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: Did you get a sense of what and who the 388 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: real Tom Wales was? Well? Yeah, I mean I had 389 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: the sense of him as a fine person without enemies 390 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: in his personal life. But he was also prickly and 391 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: not a very successful prosecutor. He was someone who took 392 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: way too long on cases, and was not very productive 393 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: and not the easiest person in the world to get 394 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: along with, all of which led me to conclude that 395 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: he was a real human being with the kind of 396 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: complexity that we all have. Straight out to Jody, Jodi 397 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: Gottlie with me, with David Payne and Joe, Scott Morgan 398 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: and Allen we're talking about an awesome podcast. It's called 399 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: Somebody Somewhere, and we're trying to unravel the murder of 400 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: a federal prosecutor that remains unsolved. I mean, who's gonna 401 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: put the bad guys in jail if you risk being 402 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: murdered yourself? And and they don't even find the killer. 403 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: Let me ask you something, Jody, who who was that 404 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: speaking that said this prosecutor was not productive? That was 405 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: Jeffrey to See, an analyst and and New Yorker author 406 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Toby. I always find it interesting when when journalists 407 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: make a legal attack on lawyers that are practicing law. 408 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: I mean, we we don't know how when you say 409 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: a federal prosecutor is quote not productive. Yeah, I think 410 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: I'll jump in on that as a journalist and a 411 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, because I was very uncomfortable, uh, and 412 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: the same kind of uncomfortable you have, until I started 413 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: delving into the cases. And I felt um comfortable putting 414 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: that interview into the podcast because it corroborated our own 415 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: review of his cases. So let me give you some 416 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: data points that I think we're really interesting. He was 417 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: a federal prosecutor for eighteen years. He was managing only 418 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: about eight to ten cases by the time he was finished, 419 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: and in the cases that he took to resolution, less 420 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: than one third of them actually resulted in jail time. 421 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: So think about that over an eighteen year career. So 422 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: the cases he was prosecut huting, the majority of them 423 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,719 Speaker 1: were bank teller embezzlement cases involving less than ten thousand dollars, 424 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: you are very minor cases, and so that issue of productivity, 425 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: what was he doing? Why did it take so long? 426 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: I think we're fair things to to bring to the surface, 427 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: because we wanted to understand if somebody killed Tom Wales 428 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: because of his work, what work was it that instigated that? 429 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: And that's what leads you really to the prime suspect 430 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: in the case. It is somebody that he prosecuted. It 431 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: is a probably his largest case, and it was being 432 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: litigated in a post conviction type of way at the 433 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: time of his murder. So that's why we looked at 434 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: the cases. Um, yeah, I agree with you. It's very 435 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: hard and it was a very hard thing to do 436 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: based on what we had learned about him as a person, 437 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: to have that kind of critical analysis of his work. 438 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: Especially have a problem with people that have tried very 439 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: few cases, especially journalists that like to sit back and 440 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: throw stones at other people about claiming a murder victim 441 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: was quote not productive. I really have a problem with that. Yeah, 442 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: I think, um, he tried only Tom Wales tried only 443 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: one case in eighteen years. I always question how many 444 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: cases the stone throwers have tried. I'm always curious about that. 445 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,959 Speaker 1: But that's a whole another can of worms. We're spending 446 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: time now, for some reason delving into the murder victims 447 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: trial record, how many cases he handled, how many he 448 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: got jail time on? Uh, you know, just this? Does 449 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: that somehow make him less important? Should do it? Really? 450 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: Deserve bullets to the head. How do I know what 451 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: one of his investigations may have touched on? What, uh 452 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: Columbia drug lord was connected to? A white collar I mean, 453 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know what he was doing, 454 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: but I know this. He's a federal prosecutor that ends 455 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: up dead. And for other people to sit back and 456 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: say he was unproductive in their opinion, I don't like 457 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: that very much. Yeah, it's a fair point. I think 458 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: the only reason we look at his cases is to 459 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: try to find the motive, and in so doing, instead 460 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 1: of taking pot shots at a dead guy, what if 461 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: anything was learned about his cases that could be connected 462 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: to his murder. So he had one big case and 463 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: it had just been resolved right prior to his murder. 464 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: In the summer before his murder, which was in the 465 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: fall of two thousand and one, and it was this 466 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: really odd case regarding the retrofitting of military helicopters. And 467 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: this is where you really start getting into the weeds. Um. 468 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: Both Tom Wales and his fellow prosecutor, a guy named 469 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: Bob Westinghouse, spent three years in investigating and indicting UH 470 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: four men and their two companies over the retrofitting of 471 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: two helicopters, basically taking military Huey helicopters, bolting on civilian 472 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: parts and then getting airworthiness certificates for those so they 473 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: could be used to service government contracts so for firefighting, 474 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: UH and things of that nature. That was the case, 475 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: and it's even odd trying to explain it, and can 476 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: you imagine, you know, spending three years on it. So 477 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: this is where the FBI believes their prime suspect, They 478 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: believe the motive for the murder lies within this case. 479 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: And in fact, they have spent sixteen years trying to 480 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: indict and arrest one of the defendants in that helicopter case. 481 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: The FEDS come under a lot of fire for the 482 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,719 Speaker 1: way that the investigation into Tom Wills's murderer was handled. 483 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: Listen to this, Why now, what what's different? What's change 484 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: Why I have I know? Uh. Well, the answer is, 485 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: this is not something we're doing just today. This is 486 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: a persistent effort. We've come together today to talk about 487 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: this publicly. Uh in part because of the efforts of 488 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: the National Association of Former U S Attorneys. Uh and 489 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: uh it's just yet another opportunity for us to alert 490 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: the public and to encourage people to come forward with 491 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: any leads. Is there anything else to be talking about this? 492 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: I mean, there's the podcast about this case that's beenets attention. 493 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: Um No, there's nothing else about the timing, and I 494 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: didn't learn about that podcast yesterday, but that had nothing 495 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: to do with the timing of this event. So Alan, 496 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: do you It always just it's so unfair when a 497 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: prosecutor is targeted. Uh, I really I recall this way 498 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: in Allen Well. The thing that strikes me about this 499 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: is the implication that for sixteen years, this is unsolved 500 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: and will it ever be solved? Is there any evidence 501 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: out there? This podcast, like others that we've dealt with, 502 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: have uncovered new evidence, and like with Tara Grinstead, that 503 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: is a good example. The hope is that this podcast 504 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: could lead to a resolution of this case. I would 505 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: like to ask David and Jody if they have any 506 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: hope or expectation that your podcast is going to make 507 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: a difference like that. That's a great question, Allen and Um. 508 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: We during the course of the podcast, and I don't 509 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: want to give any spoilers away, but through our eight 510 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: ten month investigation, we did uncover some new evidence UM, 511 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: and we explored our goal was to explore alternative theories. 512 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: You know, very early on the FBI had honed in 513 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: on their their key suspect, and we felt that maybe 514 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: at the expense of UM exploring of are alternative theories. 515 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: So we really went into this to explore what those 516 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: theories look like. And we believe during the course of 517 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: our investigation that we have some information that will help 518 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: create an alternative theory that UM we'd like explored. I 519 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: wonder how his children feel about the fact that their 520 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: father's murder has never been solved. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, 521 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: you and I have been involved in a lot a 522 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: lot of cases, and I always hate using jailhouse snitches 523 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: or confidential informants. They can wreck a case, Joe Scott, Yeah, yeah, 524 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: they can. Nancy and UH, and you have to be 525 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: very careful uh in what steps you take moving forward. Uh. 526 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you something that's very troubling to me 527 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: about this, about this case in general, is how muted 528 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: uh the Seattle p D is in this whole thing. 529 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: I am uh shaw cocked on one level as a 530 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, as a former investigator in New Orleans and 531 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, UM that they don't take a big role 532 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: in a local homicide. And I know that we can 533 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: hang all the trappings in the world that we want 534 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: to and say, well, he was a Fed. Yeah, he 535 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: was a Fed, but he was a citizen of that town. 536 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: And UH, that to me is very disturbing. UH. Here 537 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: we have uh you know, UH what they'd like to 538 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: say is the goal standard for uh criminal investigation organization worldwide. 539 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: And they've had this case for sixteen years and uh 540 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: met with very little success. I'm just very curious as 541 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: to why it would seem that the Seattle police would 542 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: back off of this so very quickly. And you know, 543 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: you can just look at the articles and see that 544 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: that all of the information everything from autopsy reports to 545 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: ballistic reports to this curious thing about the mock rov 546 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: and uh and all all the stuff is coming to 547 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: a second hand from someone by the you know, the 548 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: likes of Tuban. Uh. And it's a real head scratcher 549 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: to me. Uh, you know, just throwing that out there, 550 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: I agree. And to make matters even more confusing, uh, 551 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: the fact that the FBI used a confidential informant who 552 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: himself has come under fire. Listen to this. I have 553 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: a three paid calls from Innate in a Colorado correctional facility. 554 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: He was telling me that somebody had wanted the whales 555 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,919 Speaker 1: stead and they had hired History Game to do the job, 556 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: and the indicated that he was involved in it and 557 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: explained that they stick him out and shot him through 558 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: a window of his house, then pulled us out of 559 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: town and through the gun into a river that flows 560 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: underneath bigh five. Just another Wednesday on the phone talking 561 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: with a serial killer about what he told the FBI 562 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: about Tom Will's murder. Yes, it's that Scott Lee Kimball 563 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: episode three. But before we put this whole saga behind us, 564 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: we couldn't, of course leave without asking the biggest open 565 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: question of all. I guess they should ask you were 566 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: you in Seattle in October of two thousand and one? Um? 567 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: I was a Seattle was correct. There was a suggestion 568 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: that you may have had something to do with the 569 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,439 Speaker 1: whales murder, since you were in Seattle at the time. 570 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: What's your reaction to that. I had heard that before, 571 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: but of course I wasn't involved in it, and of 572 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: course we didn't really expect a different answer. Although it 573 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: Scott Lee Kimble, it's probably hard to ever know what 574 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: is true. But on one topic, Kimball did make a 575 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: point that gave us pause. The FBI is like a 576 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: dog with a bone. Once she gets that idea of 577 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: that bone in his mouth, you can't get him to 578 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: look you. He can't get him the roll over. He's 579 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: taking him to fits because he's convinced that that phone. 580 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: They get something in their minds and they don't want 581 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: to be wrong. Nobody wants to admit a mistake. That 582 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: I mean, they got me out of prison to help them, 583 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: and I killed full of people. Had never said that 584 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: was a mistake underpart, Okay, you heard it from the 585 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: horse's mouth. This confidential informant that the FBI is has 586 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: used to solve the case, or try to solve it, 587 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: committed four murders. Hello, we're talking about a serial killer 588 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: Scott Lee Kimbel Okay that but as I've always said 589 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: many many times, Jody Gottlieb with me is Jodie Gottlieb 590 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: and David Payne who have created an awesome podcast named 591 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: Somebody Somewhere. Jody, I mean, sometimes you gotta go to 592 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 1: hell to get the devil, to get the witnesses to 593 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: put the devil in jail. That's the reality of jail 594 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: house snitches. That's what you have to do to prove 595 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: the case. Sometimes it is and Nancy, we you know, 596 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: we reached out to him in knowing um that he's 597 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: a con man. He has a he's a convicted felone 598 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: with a long list of crimes, white collar crimes, and 599 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: while he was out on you know, out of prison, 600 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: he went on to kill at least four people that 601 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: we know of, there could be many, many more. He's 602 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: one of the most notorious serial killers and Colorado's history, 603 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: and we felt it was important that we explore all 604 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: the options. You know, as we set out to produce 605 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: this podcast, it was really about following the evidence that 606 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: we had. It's a federal open, uh cold case, and 607 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: so you know, this was the evidence we had, and 608 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: we spoke to him while he's incarcerated in Colorado. You know, 609 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: David Paine, it's easy to sit back and take pot 610 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: shots on why did the Feds let him out? He 611 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: killed four people? Yeah, that's true. What, if anything, did 612 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: he add to the investigation in Tom Wells's murder. It's 613 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: a great question. They worked him very hard. They worked 614 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,959 Speaker 1: him for a significant period of time. They they flew 615 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: him from Denver where he was being held to work 616 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: the case in Seattle. He worked with the lead case investigator. 617 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: They put him up in hotels and they tried to 618 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: get him to solicit information from a cell mate of 619 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: his that he had in Alaska, a guy named Jeremiah. 620 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: And they never could get a confession out of this Jeremiah, 621 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: even though they wired up the rooms and and took 622 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: all this time and effort with this particular case. But 623 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,919 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, they could never get 624 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: any evidence, and ultimately they washed him out and they 625 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: thought he was not you know, there was nothing fruitful here. 626 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: So David paying Jodie Gottlieb with me, Jody, where does 627 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: a pilot from a commercial airline fit into this scenario? Well, 628 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: very early on, Nancy the FBI had identified uh this 629 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: the Pilot as their key suspect in the case. UM 630 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: and we he's in our podcast we mentioned him, UM 631 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: and he had UH. He was characterized as being an 632 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: odd character and had made threats against UH, local journalists 633 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: and various people. UM and felt the FBI feel strongly 634 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: that he is indeed their guy. Why does that solve 635 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: it by saying that, No, And I think the the 636 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: way I would characterize it is he was somebody that 637 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 1: they logically had to look at. He had made threats 638 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: against Tom. Tom had prosecuted him right before his murder. Uh. 639 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: He had this pilot had filed a malicious prosecution case 640 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: against Tom Wales. He was that angry about him. So 641 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: he was a logical person for the FEDS to look at. 642 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 1: And they have spent now sixteen years trying to put 643 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: this one guy in the box, I think, to the 644 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: exclusion of almost everything else. They conducted searches of his house, 645 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: They've done DNA analysis, handwriting analysis, UM, They've they have 646 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: set up sting operations on this particular person. UH. And 647 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: they can't close the deal, which which of course begs 648 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,919 Speaker 1: the question of whether or not they have the right guy. Yeah, 649 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: you're right about that. Take a listen to this. Looking 650 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: at this case with the hindsight of time, it is 651 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: in fact easy to see how suspicion first came upon 652 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,959 Speaker 1: and stuck to the pilot. Everyone around Tom knew about 653 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: this helicopter case, which was so outside the norm of 654 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: his prior cases, as well as the pilot's public outrage 655 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: over his prosecution, and Tom was an nerved about it. 656 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: Here's his friend, Ralph Fascitelli. Tell me about the last 657 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,720 Speaker 1: time you saw Tom. A couple of weeks after nine eleven, 658 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: Tom and I decided to hike a mountain in the 659 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: Cascades here called Mount Dickaming. I remember Tom talking about 660 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 1: the case he was prosecuting involving the pilot, and Tom 661 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: was fearless, almost to her fault, But I remember he 662 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: I don't think i'd call it fear, but rerepudation and 663 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: grudging respect that the individual had conviction that what he 664 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: was doing was right and wouldn't let go. I think 665 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: Tom really didn't know what to make of this guy. 666 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: He was intelligent, he was dogged, but maybe even a 667 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: little bit crazy, and I could tell there was something 668 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: in his voice about it, the way you just described 669 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: him as somebody not willing to let go. Is almost 670 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: the same way you described Tom. Yeah, I think they 671 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: were very similar. I mean, you can imagine, you know, 672 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: two bulldogs on the other side. Did you talk about 673 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: the case or did he talk about the person? He 674 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: talked about the person more than anything else. The guy 675 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: was smart. The guy was willing to put it all 676 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: on the line for his leave. But I also think 677 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: he thought the guy was capable of doing almost anything. 678 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: I did sense a certain weariness and trepidation, and he 679 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: didn't know what to make of the pilot. On the 680 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: evening of October eleven, Tom Wills sitting at his computer 681 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: at home and his home office in his basement. But 682 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: that basement had daylight windows. Okay, so it wasn't subterranean. 683 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: A gunman manages to somehow avoid the security lights in 684 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: Wills's backyard, Okay, so obviously the place had been cased 685 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: before the shooting. Gets in the backyard, avoids the security 686 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: lights and shoots Tom and the neck through a window 687 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: with a handgun. Now, the only thing that makes me 688 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: think it was not so professional was the kidder leaves 689 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: behind shell casings and the shots were heard by a 690 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: neighbor who called I one one. Now, the fact that 691 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: a neighbor heard it shows there was not a silencer. 692 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: So how professional is that to you, Jody, Right? And 693 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: we explored that and feel that it was not a 694 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: professional who did it. Um. There were a number of 695 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: case things that were left at the scene. Um and 696 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: uh we explored all the ballistics the crime scene that 697 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: we could. You know, it's an open federal case and so, uh, 698 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: the information was limited. What we do know is that 699 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: the crime scene had been contaminated and uh, the case 700 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: had been bifurcated between the FBI and the Seattle Police Department, 701 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: which adds a layer of complexity about who actually owned 702 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: the crime scene and what it looked like and um, 703 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: and so it added added a layer of complexity and 704 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: difficulty to solve it based on the fact that the 705 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,359 Speaker 1: crime scene was in fact contaminated. Interesting that you think 706 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: the crime scene was intent contaminated. But up to right now, 707 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: in the last weeks, the FBI has actually stated that 708 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: quote evidence strongly suggesting Wales was murdered by professional killer. 709 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: Now they are just citing it's a professional killer. What what? What? David? Yeah, 710 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: it's interesting, you say, that because that's all given on 711 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: background and through leaks in the in the official presentation 712 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: at the press conference that headlined Rod Rosenstein a couple 713 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: of weeks ago, they did not provide that information. That 714 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: information that you're referring to came from a quote law 715 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: enforcement source, and they say, and they believe it was 716 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,800 Speaker 1: a conspiracy that was connected to the killing. And I 717 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: don't think they believe. I think, to give them their 718 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: fair statement, they believe someone may have been hired or 719 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: worked at their prime suspect. Uh. Professional only in the 720 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: sense of being paid, but not professional in its execution. Okay, 721 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: professional in since they were paid, but not so professional 722 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: in the way the guy was murdered. To Joseph Scott Morgan, 723 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: truer words were never spoken. I mean, what pro is 724 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: behind shell casings? Yeah? Not not too many? Uh, and 725 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,360 Speaker 1: it it uh you know it sounds I don't know. 726 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: It's going back to what David had said. This bifurcation 727 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: has taken place. I've worked on a number of cases 728 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:43,399 Speaker 1: involving federal investigators where their interests uh completely deviate from 729 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 1: those of local authorities. And you know the old adage 730 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: about too many UH cooks in the kitchen spoiled the soup, Uh, 731 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 1: and the focus is lost. The focus here is simply, 732 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: very very simply UM homicide that was committed in Seattle. UM. 733 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: And it's very easy to get drawn in emotionally and 734 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,279 Speaker 1: and talk about, you know, what a crusader he was 735 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:10,719 Speaker 1: and all that sort of things. There are a lot 736 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: of other people that die in Seattle as well. At 737 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: the end of the day, this is a homicide that 738 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: occurred in Seattle and it should be worked as such. 739 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: Now it seems like they've got a convoluted mess on 740 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: their hands. Yeah. I wanted to add also, you know, 741 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: this case has has gone on for sixteen years and 742 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:37,840 Speaker 1: there's you know, huge amounts of of UM subfiles in 743 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: this case and information that they've gathered. And I do 744 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,919 Speaker 1: wonder even if they were able to charge someone, whether 745 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: they would be able to in fact get a conviction 746 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: just based on the amount of evidence that they have. 747 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: You can I ask, can I ask one quick question 748 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 1: just clarity? Yeah, I'm very curious, UM, at what point 749 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: in tom and how did the Feds go about justifying 750 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: uh they're taking charge of the case. Is it simply 751 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 1: based upon the fact that he is a federal employee, 752 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: or did they put forth the premise that, oh, we 753 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: think that this is an assassination, ergo, we're going to 754 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: take over the case. I think that's that's where I 755 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,319 Speaker 1: need clarification. I think that probably a lot of people 756 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 1: in the audience would like to know that as well. Yeah, 757 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 1: you hit the nail on the head at the at 758 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 1: the beginning of the case. Of course, nobody knows why 759 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,280 Speaker 1: he was killed. And if he was killed just because 760 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 1: it was a random homicide or a personal thing or 761 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: something related to his work on gun control, that would 762 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: make it the purview of the Seattle police. Uh. The 763 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 1: only theory under which the FEDS take it is if 764 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: it was related to his casework. And so originally what 765 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,920 Speaker 1: they did nobody knew, and there was wrangling in the 766 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: case from the very night of the crime and who 767 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 1: managed the crime scene. What they eventually did within the 768 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 1: first three months of the case was the side to 769 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 1: create a task force that was led by the FBI 770 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,919 Speaker 1: and had a Seattle Police detective assigned. But I will 771 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: tell you that from the Seattle Police Department's point of view, Uh, 772 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 1: they feel like they were boxed out of that case. Guys, 773 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about the assassination, the murder of a federal prosecutor. 774 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 1: It was huge and horrific news in Seattle, where Tom 775 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:34,359 Speaker 1: Wells was a very respected and very liked figure. I mean, 776 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: this is the guy who graduates from law school and 777 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:41,120 Speaker 1: has the potential for a very lucrative career, making a 778 00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,840 Speaker 1: lot of money with the New York law firm. But 779 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: what does he do. He turns his back on that 780 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 1: to become a federal prosecutor in the Seattle area. He 781 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: gives his life to that and ends up dead at 782 00:48:54,600 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 1: his home computer working the case still unsolved. We are 783 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:06,400 Speaker 1: following the podcast Somebody Somewhere because we want answers in 784 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,800 Speaker 1: the murder of Tom Wells. To David Payne and Jodi Gottlieb, 785 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: who have created Somebody Somewhere, thank you so much for 786 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 1: being with us. Thank you thanks for having us. Nancy 787 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,799 Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend.