Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukleman.
Speaker 2: This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called
Speaker 2: The Bear Grease Render where we render down, dive deeper,
Speaker 2: and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease
Speaker 2: podcast presented by f h F Gear, American Maid, purpose
Speaker 2: built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as
Speaker 2: rugged as the place.
Speaker 1: As we explore, we have got a lot to cover today,
Speaker 1: Fellas and lady.
Speaker 2: We've put off a very important thing that needs to
Speaker 2: happen in the bear grease world that hadn't happened in
Speaker 2: a long time. We're not doing it today, but I
Speaker 2: want to talk about it today.
Speaker 1: So it's so important that we have to plan this
Speaker 1: and I want, I want.
Speaker 2: Uh, Well, there's a couple of reasons why we haven't
Speaker 2: done it yet, but it's it's going to be spurred
Speaker 2: on by this picture. This is a picture of Granny Henderson.
Speaker 2: This These are the photos that were in National Geographic
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 3: I looked those up after you mentioned them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I had these frame to put here
Speaker 2: in the in the office.
Speaker 1: But in the next month we're going.
Speaker 2: To do a bear Grease induction into the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2: There's not been a not I'm not saying she's going
Speaker 2: to be on it.
Speaker 4: She should be.
Speaker 5: She it's just I smell a nomination.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there there might be a little foreshadowy in there.
Speaker 2: But think about the last time we did an induction
Speaker 2: was at least a year and.
Speaker 1: A half ago.
Speaker 2: Brand because yeah, because when you have a Hall of Fame,
Speaker 2: you can't just let every little TICKI tack Joe Schmoe
Speaker 2: you talk about be in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 6: Yeah, like somebody passes away or if you retire from baseball,
Speaker 6: is like five years before you can vote on them
Speaker 6: going in. So it's not emotional. Emotional, you got to
Speaker 6: look at the merit, right.
Speaker 2: So, so it's been a long time and we're actually
Speaker 2: gonna we're building a plaque that's gonna have brass plates
Speaker 2: on it. It's gonna say Bear Grease Hall of Fame.
Speaker 6: Like this one that says my name.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's gonna have all the inducteems for five years.
Speaker 2: It's gonna have inductees and under the inductee's name, I
Speaker 2: would like to put the years they were alive and
Speaker 2: if they're still alive today, which we have multiple Bargrease
Speaker 2: Hall of Famers that are still alive today.
Speaker 1: You know we'll leave that open. We won't.
Speaker 2: James Lawrence, Roy Clark, Warner Glenn, who's like eighty nine
Speaker 2: I think now still will still ranching, still.
Speaker 1: Ranching down there. So but I want you to be
Speaker 1: thinking about it.
Speaker 2: So, Brent, I want you to be thinking about I'll
Speaker 2: tell you where we stopped. We stopped when we got
Speaker 2: to Davy Crockett. So the members of the current members
Speaker 2: of the Bear Grease Hall of Fame, just so you
Speaker 2: kind of get the idea of who's in it is.
Speaker 2: Daniel Boone. James Lawrence was actually the first. I'm going
Speaker 2: to call James Lawrence the first. James is my friend
Speaker 2: in Arkansas backwoodsman still alive, Roy Clark, who is a
Speaker 2: plot breeder, bear hunter extraordinariy over in East Tennessee.
Speaker 1: Roy Clark.
Speaker 2: I don't even want to tell people how many bears
Speaker 2: he's been responsible for killing, not because it's illegal, because
Speaker 2: like when you hear about like like guys killing you know,
Speaker 2: like five hundred bears in their lifetime.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can tell you that Roy Clarks killed a
Speaker 1: lot more than that.
Speaker 2: That was within like two weeks ago and I asked
Speaker 2: him and another guy that was with us, and they.
Speaker 1: Didn't even have a number.
Speaker 2: And it's not it's not just ones that he pulled
Speaker 2: the trigger on, but participated in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and his dog's treat. So okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Daniel Boone, Roy Clark, James, Lawrence Warner, Glenn Frederick Gerstacker,
Speaker 2: the the Arkansas well, he was a German bear hunter
Speaker 2: came to Arkansas, yeaher and Gershtalker was the first, well,
Speaker 2: the fourth. The third episode of bear Grease was called
Speaker 2: Death of a Bear Hunter. People still talk about that.
Speaker 2: That's the one Joe Rogan talked about. Yeah, and uh,
Speaker 2: and it was all about Frederick Gerstchuker and so Gershtalker.
Speaker 2: One that you may have forgotten but is very well
Speaker 2: deserved is or a Lee Provence.
Speaker 6: Oh gosh, I did forget.
Speaker 2: He passed away a month after I interviewed him, at
Speaker 2: the age of ninety two. And he killed the two
Speaker 2: bucks in nineteen sixty six that scored in the one
Speaker 2: eighties in the ozarks On public land. And he was
Speaker 2: just a he'llbilly but but just like I just loved
Speaker 2: him and just it was just the epitome like, I'll
Speaker 2: never meet anybody in my lifetime that was more from
Speaker 2: another era.
Speaker 6: Wasn't he the one that pointed you towards.
Speaker 2: Guards, right, He's the one who told me where he
Speaker 2: believed Erskine was Firskin And I want to I'm kind
Speaker 2: of weaving.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: Donald Trump does the weave. They say that's what he
Speaker 1: said when he.
Speaker 6: Talked, Well, no, no, he the tapestry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a new thing that he's so
Speaker 2: I'm kind of doing that. But Orley Provence when me
Speaker 2: and Mo Shepherd basically communicated with him, he said, I'll
Speaker 2: tell you where it is, but don't tell anybody else
Speaker 2: because there's a place that or hunted. It was like
Speaker 2: a good hunting spot. And so I said, great, I
Speaker 2: won't tell anybody where it's at. And we made that
Speaker 2: promise and I've held that promise. People asked me all
Speaker 2: the time where it's at, even to the point of
Speaker 2: someone writing a book wanted to include it as a
Speaker 2: destination in this like American big American book of Destinations
Speaker 2: and was going to do this big rite up on
Speaker 2: it and it was going to be like a big deal.
Speaker 2: And they came to me and were certain that I
Speaker 2: would tell them where it was based upon the project,
Speaker 2: how about the.
Speaker 1: News, And.
Speaker 5: I just said, and take a left.
Speaker 2: Well, I just said, I said, I promised a dead
Speaker 2: man that I was not going to tell him. I mean,
Speaker 2: maybe if I could go back and negotiate with him,
Speaker 2: like I could, but I said.
Speaker 5: You're bound to secrecy for the rest, I will.
Speaker 1: Tell where it's at, so that province is in there.
Speaker 7: And he also I think one of the most interesting
Speaker 7: things about Or is he got drafted. His number came
Speaker 7: up in the draft, and his brothers had already gone
Speaker 7: to war, but he his preacher wrote a letter and
Speaker 7: asked if they could wait till after the tomato crop
Speaker 7: came in, because his dad had died and his brothers
Speaker 7: were all at the war and they needed someone to
Speaker 7: help his mom with a tomato crop. So they gave
Speaker 7: him a deferral. And the war ended in September and
Speaker 7: he was supposed to go in October.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he did.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I remember that man.
Speaker 1: He he was the.
Speaker 2: Youngest son, and his brothers were at war and his
Speaker 2: father died. Yeah, And so it wasn't like he was
Speaker 2: trying to get out of going like he was.
Speaker 1: He wanted to go.
Speaker 2: But they but they needed a man there to help
Speaker 2: with the family, you know.
Speaker 6: And and im we raised tomatas man. I really had
Speaker 6: to thought about that go to war.
Speaker 1: You think was probably like, yeah, he's like.
Speaker 2: A story that stands out in my mind that or
Speaker 2: he told me was he said one day he and
Speaker 2: his brother were coon hunting out here in the ozarks
Speaker 2: and his brother they had guns and were coon hunting,
Speaker 2: and he said they saw a lantern out in the
Speaker 2: woods and they kind of start walking towards it and
Speaker 2: then and there's this bright light shining and uh, and
Speaker 2: they start hollering at.
Speaker 1: The light, like, hey, who are you?
Speaker 6: What's going on?
Speaker 2: I mean, this is way out where nobody should be
Speaker 2: and and he said the person wouldn't answer, and he
Speaker 2: said his brother was like, if you don't tell me
Speaker 2: who you are, I'm gonna shoot your light. Like they
Speaker 2: were going to like shoot at the light, which is
Speaker 2: like not a great idea, and uh, I'd have to
Speaker 2: go back and listen to see if he actually shot
Speaker 2: the light. But it ended up being the reflection of
Speaker 2: the moon in a small pool of water that they didn't.
Speaker 6: Know was there.
Speaker 2: I remember him, I remember him saying that, So, okay,
Speaker 2: where are we at. We've been weaving, We've we've we've
Speaker 2: got James Lawrence, Roy Clark. Uh no, no, no, no, we
Speaker 2: hadn't talked about.
Speaker 5: You got a couple more than Warner Glen uh Cumsa.
Speaker 2: T Cumsa, Sean Eleander Comsa, Holt Collier, which was the
Speaker 2: Mississippi Bear Hunter killed three thousand bears guided Teddy Roosevelt.
Speaker 1: People talk about that episode all the time and.
Speaker 5: One of my personal favorites George mcgonkin.
Speaker 1: And George mcjenkin who discovered this.
Speaker 6: George the last one or was the last one?
Speaker 5: I think Tacumsa was the last one.
Speaker 1: To Compsa was the last one. So that was a
Speaker 1: year and a half ago.
Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna throw out a few names of
Speaker 2: people that have been on. We've had a Davy Crockett
Speaker 2: episode since.
Speaker 3: That was going to be my nomination.
Speaker 2: We've had We've had a Granny Henderson, We've had a
Speaker 2: Barry Tarleton over in East Tennessee, the Moonshine and uh
Speaker 2: Constable that had the big line of plots.
Speaker 4: So are you making nominations?
Speaker 2: Are you?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 2: Once we get the regulars, we're gonna get dad back
Speaker 2: up here, Gary Neukomb, and we have all the regulars here.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put it on the table for nominations.
Speaker 7: But you're kind of you're kind of hinting right now,
Speaker 7: hinting yet who you want us to.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, No, I mean need discuss this.
Speaker 2: We need to discuss this, because we really need to
Speaker 2: discuss like, what are the qualities of a Burger's Hall
Speaker 2: of Fame?
Speaker 6: Well, does it have to be someone that is that
Speaker 6: we've thought there's been an episode on Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's got I mean, that's that. That is
Speaker 2: a qualification.
Speaker 7: Just have like a friend from high school, that Joe Dalton.
Speaker 6: He was a good buddy squirrel.
Speaker 2: You sure liked the podcast. I think we put him
Speaker 2: in the hall. That's That's so Berger's Hall Fame coming up.
Speaker 2: This is serious, Okay, the oh I was gonna I
Speaker 2: was gonna tell everybody. You remember Miles Malone from the
Speaker 2: Deer Stories episode the the branch full of acrons fell
Speaker 2: in front of his camera and he was checking his
Speaker 2: camera going out there to yeah camera Moultrie, Uh, Moultrie
Speaker 2: sent him a camera in like a year's worth of
Speaker 2: sell you your plan I wouldn't have to go, so
Speaker 2: he would have known that that buck was there before that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Altrie listened to that and they were like this this
Speaker 2: this guy.
Speaker 1: We got this guy. They sent him a camera, which
Speaker 1: which I thought was cool. I thought it was very cool.
Speaker 6: Man.
Speaker 1: We're gonna let me introduce our guests, Miss Newclem.
Speaker 2: So great to have you. It's been a while since
Speaker 2: you've been here. Where have you been?
Speaker 4: Just I just know y'all keep the a c on.
Speaker 1: We're trying to get it cool in here. It's good
Speaker 1: to see it.
Speaker 2: It's good to be I want to talk to you
Speaker 2: about the Japanese study that I mentioned earlier. Brent Reeves.
Speaker 2: Always great to have you. And Brent spent a week
Speaker 2: down in Venice, Louisiana.
Speaker 1: I was a little you should have been there.
Speaker 6: It was good.
Speaker 5: That was you Any fly fishing, No it's not not.
Speaker 5: B redfish would be awesome.
Speaker 6: Anyway you want to catch those things. It's fun. Yeah,
Speaker 6: it was.
Speaker 1: It was fun.
Speaker 6: It was fun.
Speaker 5: I did eat some of that fish.
Speaker 2: Hey, what I tell you what I Yeah, I'll tell
Speaker 2: you what I learned down there.
Speaker 1: Brent good.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was wondering because I'm not.
Speaker 4: A big fish eater.
Speaker 7: I hate it, Yeah, I hate it.
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, this is after a week of being
Speaker 2: in Venice. I love it down there. It's like a
Speaker 2: it's like a gritty Florida.
Speaker 5: Like Venice, the gritty Florida.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But one thing I did learn is that the you
Speaker 2: feel like the culture in the South is really hospitable
Speaker 2: and very nice and like like.
Speaker 4: Gentleman an entire state.
Speaker 1: Well I'm not. I'm not. These people are the nicest
Speaker 1: people you've ever met in your life.
Speaker 2: But to the ear of a lot of this country,
Speaker 2: they would be rude.
Speaker 1: I'm not alienating.
Speaker 6: Don't look at me, Paul, I don't know you.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: Let me give you an example. We walked into a
Speaker 2: restaurant and there's this lady there that we know, and
Speaker 2: I know that lady is pumped that we're down there,
Speaker 2: and she's like our best friend. And we walk in
Speaker 2: the restaurant and she immediately is like, now you' aren't
Speaker 2: gonna just sit anywhere you want. You are all going
Speaker 2: to have to sit together right here.
Speaker 6: That but it wasn't rude. It was grandmother me. Well,
Speaker 6: but said the same thing. Get your elballs off the table.
Speaker 6: Before I knock them before I break your arm, right,
Speaker 6: and you know that she loved you, but she probably
Speaker 6: would break you ar.
Speaker 1: I just felt like there was a trend.
Speaker 7: You would not break Clayson. I don't think she'd threaten.
Speaker 7: But yeah, we probably the world.
Speaker 6: I think.
Speaker 2: I think there's a trend. If this is actually a
Speaker 2: compliment to them, it's not. It's not a dig even remotely,
Speaker 2: but they there's a there's a trend of being like
Speaker 2: very direct and very antagonistic to people they like.
Speaker 5: I get that.
Speaker 6: I don't think it's antagonistic. I just it's just giving
Speaker 6: you a hard time just the way it is.
Speaker 5: I get that work.
Speaker 4: Kind of like someone we know.
Speaker 1: Well, No, I love it down there. I love those people.
Speaker 1: Vince Verena as you go.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 1: Our real guest of the day is Kyle Man. You
Speaker 1: are good. You're uh you're up in uh.
Speaker 2: Northwest area you uh oh yeah, Kyle Kyle Carrol. He
Speaker 2: he's a painter, yeah, and a retired game warden and
Speaker 2: he painted too well.
Speaker 5: Not retired, but former state trooper.
Speaker 3: Yeah, retired state trooper. I retired as a trooper, was
Speaker 3: most of the time was a game board most of
Speaker 3: that career. But yeah, it's both as true. So yeah, reforming, reforming.
Speaker 1: You know, what are you painting these days? Kyle?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: Actually the thing that's on the eastle that's been on
Speaker 3: there for a month because I've been doing other stuff.
Speaker 3: His Bear sent me a little shot. Remember last fall
Speaker 3: when you were in that big rock house.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, with the the rock house. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: fire under.
Speaker 3: I was trying to put a couple of long runners
Speaker 3: in that little rock house. There's not much to work with,
Speaker 3: but that's what school.
Speaker 1: So it's a picture that Bear sent background.
Speaker 2: Kyle also sent me a big buck. It was like
Speaker 2: an eleven point mister October. Yeah, but that was incredible.
Speaker 2: That was like a very realistic painting of a big buck.
Speaker 2: What you could tell it was in October to just
Speaker 2: by the way the l.
Speaker 3: That's the trade.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah you did.
Speaker 3: You You got me this arrow that we've been trying
Speaker 3: to get together on for that's the squirrel cookoff that's
Speaker 3: in my truck. So I go a half mile back
Speaker 3: to his truck and he's doing the clicker from there.
Speaker 3: They won't open. I'm like, forget it, I'm going on.
Speaker 3: So we finally got together on it.
Speaker 4: So that is that a flintnet.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is.
Speaker 1: It was just one that didn't really fly good. It
Speaker 1: looks good, but it's.
Speaker 6: For the students.
Speaker 2: You're working on that back there. Yeah, I'm working on
Speaker 2: an elmbow. I showed this last time, but I've made
Speaker 2: a little bit of progress since. But I'm doing a
Speaker 2: like a rounded belly on this one, so it'll be
Speaker 2: a little different than most of the bows I make.
Speaker 2: But I still hate working with ELM. The more the
Speaker 2: more I work with this one, the more I realize
Speaker 2: O Sages is king.
Speaker 6: Yep.
Speaker 2: Well, in course we have Josh and bear with us.
Speaker 2: Thanks here, Hey Misty, Okay, so did you hear my
Speaker 2: description of the tell us about the So the first
Speaker 2: Osseola podcast was basically Ostiola's childhood and I talked about
Speaker 2: identity being really a powerful time for lifelong identity between
Speaker 2: the ages of nine and thirteen. Oka describe that study
Speaker 2: better than I did.
Speaker 7: Well, Yeah, so that study and there have been some
Speaker 7: studies that don't completely align with this, but that study
Speaker 7: shows that they the Japanese government, you know, Japan and California.
Speaker 7: There's there's a lot of people going back and forth,
Speaker 7: traveling back and forth between Japan and California and probably
Speaker 7: other parts of the of the US on the West coast.
Speaker 7: And I think it was a Japanese government that basically
Speaker 7: sponsored a study to or wanted to understand how people
Speaker 7: maintain their sense of Japanese identity even if they even
Speaker 7: if they travel, and whether or not they do.
Speaker 4: And that particular.
Speaker 7: Study that you quoted showed that the thing that determined
Speaker 7: whether they did wasn't anything that you did in childhood,
Speaker 7: but was the specific time period that they lived outside
Speaker 7: of Japan. So if they lived in Japan, you know,
Speaker 7: between the ages of zero and nine, but then moved
Speaker 7: to the US, and then even if they came back
Speaker 7: like after the age of fourteen, if they lived in
Speaker 7: the US generally during that period of nine to thirteen,
Speaker 7: that time period was significant in determining whether or not
Speaker 7: they came back and said I'm an American or.
Speaker 1: If they were in America during that time period that
Speaker 1: they thought they were.
Speaker 7: If they were there America, if they were there, if
Speaker 7: they were in the US as as little kids and
Speaker 7: then moved to Japan between the age of nineteen to thirteen,
Speaker 7: they said I'm Japanese.
Speaker 4: If they lived in the US.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did a pretty good job of describing that
Speaker 1: between nineteen So okay, so here's the question.
Speaker 2: Where were you ka when you between the ages of
Speaker 2: nine and thirteen running.
Speaker 3: The hills of north west Missouri?
Speaker 2: And then that produced kind of an exact lifelong identity.
Speaker 7: And there's studies at Show and I think this is
Speaker 7: kind of interesting and thinking about like someone running around
Speaker 7: in the hills of northwest Missouri, the study of that
Speaker 7: Japanese study, there's actually studies at show. Well that's not
Speaker 7: exactly the case, but what's going on between the ages
Speaker 7: of nine and thirteen is pretty important because that's that is.
Speaker 1: Like a very well documented I mean, what's going on, what's.
Speaker 4: Going on in the brain.
Speaker 7: There's a well, very well documented process that Josh was.
Speaker 6: The fourth grade.
Speaker 7: They call it the brain all four years, all four years.
Speaker 5: The fourth grade, a fourth grade, fourth fourth grade.
Speaker 3: But you got it.
Speaker 6: I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4: I mean, I have something very intelligent to share here.
Speaker 7: We're talking about Josh and repetition of the fourth grade.
Speaker 7: It's fictitious, right, I mean, you didn't even have it
Speaker 7: all the great brain remodel, like that's what they are.
Speaker 7: Maybe they don't call it the Great brain reymodel.
Speaker 1: I call it.
Speaker 7: They do call it brain remodeling, and it's basically, you know,
Speaker 7: when you're a little kid, you just absorb everything. Like
Speaker 7: you see, little kids can just pick up languages when
Speaker 7: they go to other other places way easier than their
Speaker 7: parents can. And that's because your brain is just absorbing everything. Well,
Speaker 7: there's too much, like the brain can't handle for this
Speaker 7: whole entire life, absorbing everything until around that time period
Speaker 7: at the at the start of puberty or right before
Speaker 7: kids start to.
Speaker 1: Basically this show has kids listening to it, let's try
Speaker 1: not to use.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I heard some of the words, so they they
Speaker 7: they start to prune out some of the those those
Speaker 7: the brain starts to prune and basically what it uses
Speaker 7: it really strengthens. It's like kind of the user lose
Speaker 7: it time period. And of course the brain can change.
Speaker 2: Kids using their hands if they're on a computer screen.
Speaker 7: No language when they're five, but then move away from
Speaker 7: a country and when you're twenty three, you're like, you
Speaker 7: spoke that fluently when you were five. Well their brain
Speaker 7: was like, yeah, we didn't really use that from the
Speaker 7: age just nine to twenty five, so you know, not
Speaker 7: important anymore. So it kind of prunes out what it
Speaker 7: doesn't use, but it really strengthens what it does use.
Speaker 7: So that's what is going on in middle school. You know,
Speaker 7: for most Americans, they would be in middle school at
Speaker 7: that time, but that age range, and so it's not
Speaker 7: that you can't change after that, but it's just the
Speaker 7: brain is kind of cleaning itself out and really honing.
Speaker 3: In print and what's going on in their life too,
Speaker 3: not just their skills. Like when when your guests talked
Speaker 3: about Bonnie and Clyde, you know that outlaw part of it.
Speaker 3: I immediately I'd already thought about Jesse James and his
Speaker 3: nine to thirteen year old growing up and his dad
Speaker 3: being hung in the barn and war and dying and
Speaker 3: the you know, the all the stuff on the border,
Speaker 3: and it's kind of a similar time period and what
Speaker 3: then they're capable of. But then we somehow revere their
Speaker 3: staying against you know that all that's tied up in that.
Speaker 3: So I thought that I thought of that too when
Speaker 3: the age the age thing.
Speaker 1: After nine and thirteen prison wearing a pair overalls.
Speaker 6: I was nine and thirteen. I was man, living life,
Speaker 6: not wearing shoes and running amok. I mean I didn't.
Speaker 2: That was the most what's still a little Brent Reeve
Speaker 2: biopiece here years Okay, so nine would have been from
Speaker 2: seventy five to nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1: I was born in nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 6: I was hitting.
Speaker 1: You could have been my father.
Speaker 5: You were old enough.
Speaker 1: That's not that's not true.
Speaker 6: Your ground, oh man. I was hitting home runs at
Speaker 6: the wide little league field. Hmm.
Speaker 1: Did y'all know that Brent played like one season of
Speaker 1: college football.
Speaker 4: I didn't.
Speaker 6: I did not know that. I didn't wear it was.
Speaker 1: At least that's why I cover his backstory.
Speaker 6: It was last year. It was Boise, Idaho. It's cold
Speaker 6: Henderson State University.
Speaker 1: You know that's where Gary Nuklan went to college.
Speaker 6: I did. I saw a plaque. There's a rocket chair there,
Speaker 6: just like this, got Gary Nictom's name here.
Speaker 8: A lot of.
Speaker 6: None of which the the that that formative time, especially
Speaker 6: when she said that, when you've talked about that now,
Speaker 6: I think about you know, I didn't have the I
Speaker 6: had a wonderful childhood, but some children have issues, and
Speaker 6: I can remember during that time having issues growing up,
Speaker 6: behavioral issues where I was well, I wouldn't mean, I
Speaker 6: was mischievous and that has I'm still that still the
Speaker 6: same way, you know it was. I wasn't trying to
Speaker 6: make anybody mad or hurt anybody, but I was playing,
Speaker 6: which you know I played. I'm fifty eight years old
Speaker 6: and I've interrupted you three times being a kid, that's right,
Speaker 6: still being a kid, you know. So I see where
Speaker 6: that has a lot of correlation. There's got to be
Speaker 6: a lot of alidity to that, you know.
Speaker 1: I think about the even.
Speaker 2: And we talk about like recruiting kids into the outdoors
Speaker 2: and like when to start, and there's a lot of
Speaker 2: there's a lot of laws like in Arkansas, like you
Speaker 2: can a kid can hunt when they're six years old,
Speaker 2: actually hunt, but in a lot of other states they
Speaker 2: can't even hunt until they're.
Speaker 1: Like twelve, yeah, which which is surprising to me.
Speaker 6: It was, but.
Speaker 2: I think I was, yeah, six, and that was just
Speaker 2: changed a few years ago. There was no law, and
Speaker 2: I think like two year old started like checking in there.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, you'd see dear pictures of during youth weekend.
Speaker 6: There's three year old sitting up.
Speaker 1: There a big book.
Speaker 4: Six month old can't hold its head up.
Speaker 3: That's well the last book, Yeah, and you really can't
Speaker 3: go interrogate a three year old. Yeah, nice buy.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so talking about hunting, and so I would
Speaker 2: I would have been nine to thirteen, between like nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty eight, nineteen ninety two or something, which was the
Speaker 2: which was the beginning of the American whitetail industrial complex.
Speaker 1: Just let that sink in for a minute.
Speaker 6: You just make that up.
Speaker 2: I've heard my friend Steve Vernelli say that phrase before,
Speaker 2: but he's and I think he's the one that made
Speaker 2: it up. But basically, when white tails became big business,
Speaker 2: that's when it's not the North America white tail started
Speaker 2: in like the late seventies, but in the nineties is
Speaker 2: when it just like blew up. That's when that's when
Speaker 2: videoso vhs. That's when Will Primos, Nightinghale, the Druris, Dan Fitzgerald,
Speaker 2: all the people started coming on the scene. That's when
Speaker 2: hunting TV started like blowing up more and so in
Speaker 2: then in that period a time, like I just became
Speaker 2: super infatuated with like watching all the stuff and hunting,
Speaker 2: you know, and it just it almost feels like it
Speaker 2: could it could never leave, you know.
Speaker 7: But interesting, Yeah, it is kind of interesting if you
Speaker 7: look at the all the guys like Bill Gates, Uh,
Speaker 7: Steve Jobs, all the guys that got big in tech.
Speaker 7: They had access to computers at that when they were
Speaker 7: really young at their schools, and most schools didn't have
Speaker 7: them at that age, and they were the ones that
Speaker 7: went on, yeah, to be early developers. So it's kind
Speaker 7: of like you guys with at that crucial period. But
Speaker 7: but I think what's kind of cool about the human
Speaker 7: brain is that you actually can still learn stuff even
Speaker 7: if you didn't get exposed to at that period. It's
Speaker 7: and thinking about Osceola, you know, he he was really
Speaker 7: exposed to these these stories when he was younger, younger
Speaker 7: than that time period. But it's not like everything when
Speaker 7: you're younger goes away. It's just the things that are
Speaker 7: not reinforced during that age period. And so it's clear
Speaker 7: that that was a he was a big key figure
Speaker 7: in his life even still through that time that that
Speaker 7: kind of allowed him.
Speaker 1: To Josh, let's do the trivia. Let's let's just jump
Speaker 1: right into trivia.
Speaker 4: Okay, So I am not going to do well trivia.
Speaker 2: I have some I have a few questions. Josh has
Speaker 2: a few questions, but I'm not going to participate, but.
Speaker 5: No, I want you to participate.
Speaker 1: Oh you want me to participate? Okay, Well here's how
Speaker 1: it's gonna work.
Speaker 4: Is that even fair?
Speaker 1: It's like Kevin, Yeah, I don't think it.
Speaker 5: I don't think it's Well, maybe at least you you participate.
Speaker 5: It's the last We're gonna get some boards so we
Speaker 5: can write answers down because I don't like this everybody
Speaker 5: just blurting things out where everybody can write, write something down.
Speaker 5: So next, next, So so what are the rules?
Speaker 1: Then let's very quickly. We don't need to belabor it.
Speaker 5: Okay. What I want is I want for everybody to
Speaker 5: answer and be honest. Don't just say it, okay, don't
Speaker 5: change Yeah, don't change your answer as if you wrote
Speaker 5: it down, and we'll just keep it keep track of
Speaker 5: who gets.
Speaker 3: So okay, I'm asking for Brent mostly, But what if
Speaker 3: we don't have an answer, then I'm just saying, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that I always pick c.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Josh, let's just move through pretty quick. Let's
Speaker 2: not take a lot of a lot of time.
Speaker 5: But okay, number one, when did the seminole Wars start
Speaker 5: and end?
Speaker 2: Bear ended in seventeen sixty three.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, that was the Prench in Indian War.
Speaker 1: I remember when it started. Eight Okay, well he didn't
Speaker 1: answer the whole question when they started.
Speaker 3: In, Yeah, it did.
Speaker 4: I think we got to raise our hand if we
Speaker 4: know the answer.
Speaker 3: Okay, that'd be better.
Speaker 6: Numbers. Yeah, okay, Brent, what is it eighteen seventeen? In
Speaker 6: eighteen eighteen?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's when it started.
Speaker 5: That's when it started.
Speaker 6: When did it end? Oh eighteen twenty three? No, I don't,
Speaker 6: I just forkid.
Speaker 1: It started in?
Speaker 2: There were a couple basically between eighteen seventeen and eighteen nineteen.
Speaker 2: It started, but it ended in eighteen fifty eight.
Speaker 6: I can start in eighteen seventeen eighteen, between eighteen.
Speaker 2: Like there's like when it started. As actually you hear
Speaker 2: people say to the.
Speaker 5: Podcast, it started in eighteen seventeen ended eighteen. These are
Speaker 5: all derived from the podcast. So we're going on, what
Speaker 5: the number two? Raise your hand? If you know the answer,
Speaker 5: howld old on, let me.
Speaker 1: Let me let's let's let's yeah, let's go through this
Speaker 1: pretty quick. It was already raised no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 5: Forty one year four forty one years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, how long has the as the U
Speaker 2: was the US in Afghanistan twenty twenty yep, I mean
Speaker 2: world war World War one was four years, World War
Speaker 2: two was.
Speaker 1: Six, Vietnam was twelve or ten.
Speaker 3: Who knows, depending on when you It.
Speaker 6: Ended in seventy two, and it's kind of conjecture on
Speaker 6: when it really started.
Speaker 1: See that's just like the start. Yeah, but forty one
Speaker 1: years of war, I mean that's like massive. That's okay,
Speaker 1: all right, good job.
Speaker 5: Question number two. Raise your hand if you know the answer.
Speaker 5: How much were the seminole people paid for the twenty
Speaker 5: eight million acres annexed by the US per acre? Nope,
Speaker 5: not per acre. That's all I got that And that
Speaker 5: answer was less than not a full So be honest
Speaker 5: with your Okay.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go two hundred and twenty one thousand.
Speaker 3: I'm a less than if you won't accept the lesson
Speaker 3: a cent an acre.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it was. I'm twenty one thousand, is
Speaker 6: what I'm thinking in my head.
Speaker 4: I was thinking two hundred and eighteen.
Speaker 5: The answer is Baron Newcomb two hundred and.
Speaker 2: So what was astonishing about that? And it's hard to
Speaker 2: it's it's when you're talk about money from that far back,
Speaker 2: it is hard.
Speaker 1: Obviously it was going to be a lot less.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they paid like a sixty third of a
Speaker 2: cent per acre, which.
Speaker 1: Even back which back then was not a lot of money.
Speaker 6: Yeah. No, here's a contrast. I got a podcast coming
Speaker 6: out Friday. I don't know when this is coming out,
Speaker 6: but anyway, on the one that I'm talking about, there's
Speaker 6: a guy that tried to barter a section of land
Speaker 6: for fourteen deer dogs. And you figured that out today.
Speaker 6: It was over two hundred thousand dollars for fourteen dogs.
Speaker 4: Wow wow.
Speaker 6: And they gave those folks less than a cent wow
Speaker 6: for an acre. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then then they renigged on that trick.
Speaker 2: Yeah you know right, Oh yeah, yeah, that was that
Speaker 2: was the astonishing part of that is that they they
Speaker 2: made this, they made this treaty, which not all of
Speaker 2: the Muskogie creeks, I mean they they didn't agree to it.
Speaker 1: There were just some people there.
Speaker 6: Here, this is what we're going to do.
Speaker 2: And and and there were, as I understand it, some
Speaker 2: Muskogie creeks creeks that that did sign it. But that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that all of them did. And they didn't
Speaker 2: have a centralized government, you know, so the the Americans
Speaker 2: just were coming from this like European mentality of centralized government.
Speaker 2: There's presidents and leaders that speak for the people.
Speaker 1: But they did not.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like their way of governing was just
Speaker 2: so different. And then so they agreed to it, and uh.
Speaker 6: But then it was revoked.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then like six years later they're like, tell
Speaker 2: you what, never forget that, forget that fourth out. You know,
Speaker 2: four million acres, which was peanuts even then, but a
Speaker 2: four million acre reservation that the seminoles were supposed to
Speaker 2: stay on. They were like, hey, we're going to take
Speaker 2: that to you' all, go on to Oklahoma.
Speaker 5: Crazy, Okay. Question number three, according to doctor Wickman, approximately
Speaker 5: how many seminoles were believed to be in Florida at
Speaker 5: the highest point in the early part of the worst.
Speaker 4: Raise your hand if you know the answer, look at it,
Speaker 4: Old Baron new what is it.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, five thousand, five thousand.
Speaker 5: The answer is five thousand.
Speaker 1: What were you doing between the ages of nine and thirteen?
Speaker 1: I was mosy around.
Speaker 6: He was.
Speaker 5: Okay. Question number four described Osceola as five foot eight
Speaker 5: inches high with a manly frank and open countenance.
Speaker 1: The guy's name. The other guy's name, Oh man, I
Speaker 1: may know his first name, but I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: remember his full name.
Speaker 2: Okay, John Sprague, Okay, I'm gonna.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna you didn't even give us a chance.
Speaker 5: You didn't know nobody had nobody had it.
Speaker 2: Well, see, now I'm gonna critique, like does show Rinella
Speaker 2: does on his program that he's in charge of that,
Speaker 2: he's in charge of the ratings for it and charging
Speaker 2: whether a successful or fails.
Speaker 1: He gets to talk about it.
Speaker 2: See that that question was such a tertiary question, Like
Speaker 2: nobody cares what that guy's name was, But trivia has
Speaker 2: gotta have some tinge of like fun to it.
Speaker 1: Okay, that was not fun.
Speaker 5: What was the name of the Indian agent that Osceola assassinated?
Speaker 5: Your hand?
Speaker 1: You should know that one. What come on, guys, wait
Speaker 1: mentioned at least six times his first name Thomas. Yeah,
Speaker 1: where you're in the family of names?
Speaker 4: Tom?
Speaker 6: Tom?
Speaker 5: Okay, you're you're a couple of vowels, right, you got
Speaker 5: it backwards? Okay, nobody has an answer. His name was
Speaker 5: Wiley Thompson, not Tom Willie.
Speaker 2: Let's talk talk about let's talk about It's okay if
Speaker 2: we talk about that.
Speaker 1: Here's here's the other.
Speaker 2: This is a little inside beargrease thing. Part of the
Speaker 2: quiz too, is that it gives us, it gives us
Speaker 2: entry points to talk about what was going on. So
Speaker 2: it's okay if we're like having like meaningful conversation about.
Speaker 5: The I thought that part was really interesting in the
Speaker 5: podcast because the fact that Wiley Thompson puts in irons
Speaker 5: like it just unilaterally made a decision with no authority
Speaker 5: behind it, to lock this guy up. I mean, I
Speaker 5: think Wiley Thompson would have had to have known enough
Speaker 5: about Ostiola to know that this is a bad idea,
Speaker 5: like this is not going to turn on.
Speaker 6: Maybe it was just plumb arrogance. I think ultimately led
Speaker 6: to his demise.
Speaker 1: I think oola was.
Speaker 2: I mean, you saw it documented several times in there
Speaker 2: that that he would I mean, he would lie to
Speaker 2: a Indian agent I mean, which I'm not really faulting
Speaker 2: him for because I mean, these people were like trying
Speaker 2: to kill them or steal their land. So but but
Speaker 2: he would he would say, I mean, he was kind
Speaker 2: of a trick.
Speaker 1: He was cunning. If you remember in the description uh
Speaker 1: they they One of the guys said that that Ostiola was.
Speaker 5: When he talked about his mind, his mind was active,
Speaker 5: not sharp, not strong, not strong, active, nothing.
Speaker 2: And I think like if you would have described I'm
Speaker 2: just reading in, like big time reading in. But the
Speaker 2: impression that I get, like the research I've done in Ostiola,
Speaker 2: is that, I mean he.
Speaker 1: Was like a wily guy, like a tricky guy.
Speaker 2: Like he'd look at you and say, hey, this is
Speaker 2: what we're gonna do, and then he'd slip around and
Speaker 2: and you know, do something completely different now like a
Speaker 2: lot of the and and And that's not a I'm
Speaker 2: not saying that's a fault. He was doing what he
Speaker 2: had to do to build this resistance of just what
Speaker 2: it's just what it took. But anyway, so I think
Speaker 2: maybe Wiley Thompson did not know who he was dealing with,
Speaker 2: like he he felt like he was dealing with just
Speaker 2: like it.
Speaker 3: Could be that this guy was, like Brent said, just
Speaker 3: you are going to kind of be the law west
Speaker 3: of the pay Coast. You know, you're gonna have to
Speaker 3: be in charge. But he might have been one of
Speaker 3: those overbearing type you know, this is I'm in charge.
Speaker 3: I'll do whatever I want. And that's the wrong guy,
Speaker 3: that's the wrong kind of personality.
Speaker 6: Well, he was used to also, he was used to
Speaker 6: dealing folks that recognized his authority. Yeah, those folks are
Speaker 6: exactly this dude. What's his name? We can get his
Speaker 6: name right now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, treat people like you want to be treated, because
Speaker 3: it might come back and bite you.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've known, I don't know you well enough to
Speaker 6: miss you if you died. Now you're going to tell
Speaker 6: me that I got to get into Calaboose. Yeah, I
Speaker 6: got something for you.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine being an Indian, a US Indian agent.
Speaker 2: They so their job was to befriend, just deal with,
Speaker 2: communicate with, live with to some degree, lie to lie too, Yeah,
Speaker 2: just yeah, and so yeah, boy, that would have been
Speaker 2: an interesting job to be a US Indian agent.
Speaker 1: A lot of those guys got killed too. A lot
Speaker 1: of them got killed.
Speaker 6: It'd be interesting to know how many of them, the
Speaker 6: percentage of them actually looked out the situation, being as
Speaker 6: it was not that they manufactured, but how many of
Speaker 6: them actually worked in the best interest of the natives.
Speaker 6: I think the percentage is low.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and I think it would be hard to
Speaker 2: quantify that too, because I mean it's like different scenarios
Speaker 2: might be, might be it would be.
Speaker 8: Very hard, very hard to go Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Josh, Josh,
Speaker 8: what was the name of the US general who captured
Speaker 8: Osila under a flag of truce?
Speaker 6: Schwartz cough? Oh forgot to raise man, no.
Speaker 2: Man, remember now this this is okay, I'm a little
Speaker 2: a little disappointed, guys.
Speaker 5: Okay, the answer is General Jessup.
Speaker 1: Sure, now, okay.
Speaker 2: What was not in the podcast was that Jessup was
Speaker 2: one of the longest serving US military generals of all time.
Speaker 2: He was in the US military military for fifty two
Speaker 2: years as a general.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 2: He started in like nineteen or eighteen early in the
Speaker 2: Seminole Wars and like went like to the Civil War.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 6: Oh, Doug Gum also es. Yeah. He did not win
Speaker 6: any friends for that either.
Speaker 2: Well you heard you heard it how they were like
Speaker 2: they were ridiculing him fifty years later.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because of the deception, flag of truce and all that.
Speaker 3: But you know, I thought of listening to that on
Speaker 3: the way down. Remember when Boone goes out at Boonsboro
Speaker 3: and they're going to have the talk with the Indians
Speaker 3: and the Indians are like, okay, on three go and
Speaker 3: they try to grab him. That's the same thing the
Speaker 3: other way. You know, it's but we would look down
Speaker 3: on that as deception. They looked down on and it
Speaker 3: was it was dirty, dirty pool.
Speaker 6: But yeah, wars war man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought too, kind of.
Speaker 6: War's war if they'd had a chance to get jessup,
Speaker 6: if he's dumb enough to walk into it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know, and that's where you get.
Speaker 2: You get these little like micro windows into that world
Speaker 2: that I think paint the picture of what it was like.
Speaker 2: The thing the thing about it was that made it
Speaker 2: so tricky is that he had met with military US
Speaker 2: military generals like bunches of times before.
Speaker 6: And but I mean, now that had to go into
Speaker 6: the planet. I think we can get him here. If
Speaker 6: we just get him here, we'll get him caught, we'll
Speaker 6: and we'll go on. I'm not agreeing with it, Yeah,
Speaker 6: but I understand it's just a war.
Speaker 7: And ahead, well, isn't a flag of truce so different?
Speaker 7: I mean, like that's a big deal in war.
Speaker 6: It wouldn't have been had I been in Tora Bora
Speaker 6: and Osama Bin Louden walked out of a cave waving
Speaker 6: a white flag that had just been a place where
Speaker 6: we're going to orient our fire. It's just sometimes it's
Speaker 6: just what it is.
Speaker 3: They talked about the honor of war about that time,
Speaker 3: and they told a story about Lafayette's dogs. Yea, and
Speaker 3: if you remember The Patriot in the movie The Patriot,
Speaker 3: they used that story with those dogs and the kind
Speaker 3: of the back and forth between Oh that that's where
Speaker 3: that comes from.
Speaker 6: It was in the movie.
Speaker 3: It wasn't within the dog scene, but yeah, that's where
Speaker 3: that comes from.
Speaker 1: Tell us that story. Have you been in the movie?
Speaker 3: Oh well that was twenty five years ago. I know
Speaker 3: it was because what the Patriot?
Speaker 1: The Patriot?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. It wasn't like right with milk somebody. No,
Speaker 3: he went riding by several times. But no, it was
Speaker 3: the way that happened was they were shooting this in
Speaker 3: the Carolina is because it was based on Francis Marion.
Speaker 3: And I mean there's a lot of connections. That's another
Speaker 3: thing about this podcast that so many connections to other
Speaker 3: parts of history. That was that was cool. But yeah,
Speaker 3: that was they were they needed reenactors. They could get
Speaker 3: extras to fill background. You know, for stuff, but they
Speaker 3: needed reenactors when they started shooting the big battle scenes
Speaker 3: and stuff that somebody that had already closed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had that, you were a reenactor.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So they buddy of mine was there and he said
Speaker 3: contact some I don't remember now there was. It was
Speaker 3: pre pre cell phone, pre computer, no digital stuff. But
Speaker 3: I sent him some stuff and they said, yeah, come
Speaker 3: on out. So he had to go through a process
Speaker 3: and then they had to outfit you in wardrobe. And
Speaker 3: so I wanted a ponytail, you know, in a queue like,
Speaker 3: and they said, we got a lot of those guys.
Speaker 3: So I get a Dutch boy.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what that means.
Speaker 3: Well, it's just a Dutch boy wig that came. Its
Speaker 3: kind of a blew in my eyes every day all day.
Speaker 3: It was terrible.
Speaker 2: But so you were an extra war scenes Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: so you were like shooting a musket.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was supposed to be a guy stepping out front
Speaker 3: and they were going to zero in on us and
Speaker 3: actually shoot because I knew the armor on the set,
Speaker 3: and every time we started to do that, it rained
Speaker 3: and that never happened. But the stuff that I worked on,
Speaker 3: I'm just you're like furniture kind of your background, you know.
Speaker 3: But the scene where he comes back.
Speaker 1: With can you see yourself in the movie.
Speaker 3: I'm like those little guys in uh what what's the movie?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 3: They say, you can see my hand if you look. Yeah, now,
Speaker 3: if you freeze frame it, you can, but you're not
Speaker 3: gonna Yeah, yeah I can show you you were there though,
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah it was, and it was. What's cool
Speaker 3: is you get a you get a little bit of
Speaker 3: sense certain times, a little magic for a certain kind
Speaker 3: of time of day, and all that stuff is there
Speaker 3: that you can't you're not visualizing. It's right there, you know.
Speaker 3: Mister you have to go, So it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2: Miss Newcomb has to go. Thank you, Thank you for
Speaker 2: coming support us. Mistery actually has a real job. You
Speaker 2: can't just sit around podcast for a living being a
Speaker 2: podcast or even a real job.
Speaker 1: No, it's not, but h Pristy has a real job.
Speaker 5: So thanks mister.
Speaker 3: Good to see miss.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 3: Anyway, that's how that happened. It was fun.
Speaker 2: All right, Let's bring in our next guest.
Speaker 1: Go get Tim. Do you think you could get Tim
Speaker 1: to sit right there? Yeah? I mean not for very long,
Speaker 1: but yeah, okay.
Speaker 9: Okay, go ahead, I'm sorry, I'm no, that's fine, that's
Speaker 9: that's what it was, and it was it was a
Speaker 9: good time.
Speaker 3: I had several buddies that were that did the same thing,
Speaker 3: and so there was a core group that was with
Speaker 3: the film all the time. So say no, they're going
Speaker 3: to be in this stuff and they can't just have
Speaker 3: they can't have a shot that. You got to go
Speaker 3: reshoot and have a different people. So what they did
Speaker 3: with us was they would once they had you photographed
Speaker 3: and all your stuff. They I had had a rev
Speaker 3: woar coach that came out of wardrobe. Everything else was
Speaker 3: mine and then the wig and I had a wound
Speaker 3: had a hand to And so the day we're shooting
Speaker 3: the scene where he comes back to the to the
Speaker 3: army and cheering and everything, they shoot it a few times.
Speaker 3: First time we were just yeah, we're whooping and who's
Speaker 3: on there and the horses flare off. So every time
Speaker 3: after that, what you see in the movie it's all pantomime,
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, oh yeah, no, we're not saying anything
Speaker 3: because the horse will get close enough to the to
Speaker 3: the call. Yeah. So then they finally get Gibson there.
Speaker 1: Says, my mules would have been fine.
Speaker 3: They should have had you do it, had you come
Speaker 3: back to the army with the mule and.
Speaker 5: Gets and riding the mule.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But they stopped and they picked up section of
Speaker 3: us that was going to be right in the back
Speaker 3: of that, and they dusted us up and they fixed
Speaker 3: us all up, and and they came in. They were
Speaker 3: going to put a head wound on. They're gonna take
Speaker 3: my hat, put this head wound on. They had this
Speaker 3: fake blood, and I thought, I don't want to lose
Speaker 3: my hats, my hat, you know, so I said, have
Speaker 3: about a hand wood so they won't. They fixed my
Speaker 3: hand up. The guy next to me, they do head wound.
Speaker 3: Bloody em all up. He's in every shot. Always take
Speaker 3: the head wound. So it's like the guy the five
Speaker 3: and the you know, the guy with the head got
Speaker 3: the head, you know. So so you were standing by
Speaker 3: the guy with the hen you see him. I'm right
Speaker 3: there somewhere.
Speaker 2: Acne career would have been so much just take the
Speaker 2: head woond, that would have been.
Speaker 1: But that's pretty good fun, that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, this is good Josh.
Speaker 5: Okay. Last last real question is a date question, what
Speaker 5: year did ossi Ola and his family move to Florida?
Speaker 5: That was mentioned in there? I will give you a hint.
Speaker 5: It is very close to the start. That's what of
Speaker 5: the Seminole wars?
Speaker 6: I have a I have an answer.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna wait. See what Brent say. Brenton, what do
Speaker 3: you say?
Speaker 6: I must say, eighteen fifteen.
Speaker 5: Sixteen fourteen, eighteen fourteen is correct.
Speaker 3: It took a little trip that Yeah, that should have
Speaker 3: should have been remembered.
Speaker 2: Okay, I have a I have a couple of questions. Man,
Speaker 2: my questions are a little kind of heavy hitting here.
Speaker 6: So far that we actually listened.
Speaker 1: To it, yeah, makes for listening.
Speaker 6: Brent, You're welcome.
Speaker 2: Oh there was a there was a I don't even
Speaker 2: know how to pronounce it.
Speaker 1: We're gonna skip that one.
Speaker 2: What is one of the names of the of what
Speaker 2: the Seminoles called Florida, not not the not the not
Speaker 2: the the actual Indian name, but what it meant?
Speaker 1: There were two? There were two names.
Speaker 3: Can get close?
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, Josh, what what did they call Florida?
Speaker 5: Those of the deer.
Speaker 1: Nose of the deer? They called it like the I
Speaker 1: can't remember.
Speaker 2: It was like the Kyle something I know, the deer
Speaker 2: close brand.
Speaker 6: Do you remember something about water the pointed land.
Speaker 2: They called it the sharpened pointed land or the nose
Speaker 2: of the deer.
Speaker 6: I don't.
Speaker 3: That's what it got me.
Speaker 2: When I said that doctor Wickman, I was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: they knew the shape of Florida. And I realized kind
Speaker 2: of how dumb that is to think that they wouldn't ask.
Speaker 2: But you wouldn't have thought that they would have had
Speaker 2: a sense of that big of geography. But I mean
Speaker 2: even even on foot, like these people didn't have horses,
Speaker 2: Yeah they were. They were on foot and in canoes.
Speaker 2: That much land they they.
Speaker 3: Were made, that rounded point. But but yeah, I mean
Speaker 3: they didn't see an aerial photo. They couldn't have ever.
Speaker 3: It had to be either from other people talking to
Speaker 3: them something, you know.
Speaker 1: I thought that was pretty cool.
Speaker 3: It was cool.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I also thought it was interesting.
Speaker 2: In the in the in the History of Florida section
Speaker 2: at the very beginning that doctor Wickman gave, she said
Speaker 2: that Florida was so critical to America. I wouldn't have known.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have thought about why it would have been critical.
Speaker 2: I just thought, Wow, it's just attached so we need it,
Speaker 2: but it had so much exposure. And when you think
Speaker 2: about in history, where did people from Europe usually end
Speaker 2: up landing on the coast Florida? Yeah, I mean like
Speaker 2: that's where a lot of people came in. That's where
Speaker 2: uh Casa de Vaka that one of the first guys
Speaker 2: that came inland in the southeastern United States.
Speaker 1: They landed in Florida.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was Florida, right, Yeah, yeah, somewhere.
Speaker 1: And uh didn't Hernando de Soto and them start in Florida.
Speaker 6: I found up Mark.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think of him more in the middle part
Speaker 3: of the country. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: You're mad, Missippi.
Speaker 2: But point being, it's a it's a critical geographic point
Speaker 2: for the protection of America. That's where we now have
Speaker 2: all these military bases and all this different stuff.
Speaker 1: But so that's pretty interesting.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you guys, the type of
Speaker 2: polygamy when you when you married two sisters.
Speaker 6: Here we go.
Speaker 3: She said the word, but I didn't.
Speaker 1: It was hard to That's.
Speaker 2: Why the question has been I've decided it's called sore
Speaker 2: s O R.
Speaker 1: O R A L polygamy, s real sor sorrow sorrow.
Speaker 1: It was hard. She she pronounced it, and I couldn't.
Speaker 3: I thought she was saying Serialmy I'm like, how do
Speaker 3: you do that?
Speaker 6: A bunch of sisters?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was interest word for cake. Okay, now here's
Speaker 2: here's one. What was the name of the first Indian
Speaker 2: graduate of West Point? He was a Muskogee.
Speaker 5: I was going to put that in there.
Speaker 6: His name was.
Speaker 1: Anybody now, David Moniac yeh.
Speaker 3: Which that didn't come to me. I actually I felt
Speaker 3: like that it was cool that.
Speaker 2: Story set for me the time, and I mentioned it
Speaker 2: on the podcast. But you kind of get this feeling
Speaker 2: that like these people had never seen white people.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Just think, like, but then here this guy is a
Speaker 2: graduate from West Point.
Speaker 5: Can you imagine what it had been for a Native
Speaker 5: American to go through West Point at that time?
Speaker 6: It says volumes about that person that.
Speaker 5: Did no kidding, I mean, the the internal fortitude that
Speaker 5: that guy must have had was off the charts. I mean,
Speaker 5: the average Joe that goes through West Point goes through
Speaker 5: hillacious hazing and all that kind of stuff. Let alone
Speaker 5: at that time in history for a Native to go
Speaker 5: through the no HR available.
Speaker 2: Ship and then he's the first guy killed in the
Speaker 2: battle that he's in.
Speaker 6: It was. It was good that you reminded the listener,
Speaker 6: include myself, that the folks been interacting for three hundred
Speaker 6: years before. That was because you did get the impression.
Speaker 6: It was like, what is that? Yeah, oh it's a
Speaker 6: white guy. Yeah, that was not the case. It'd been there.
Speaker 5: Bonus question. I got a bonus question. The winner takes all.
Speaker 5: What is the name of the of Clay's aunt and
Speaker 5: uncle that lived in sophisticated Pennsylvania Tommy Kate.
Speaker 10: Karen aunt Karen, Yeah, and uncle Ben uncle Tony sophisticated, sophisticated,
Speaker 10: cultured Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: I have Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: That's a cool place.
Speaker 6: You don't get me in that in that dispute there
Speaker 6: because I love the folks in Pennsylvania, especially Bradford, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: Oh case knives.
Speaker 6: What a coincidence? Yeah, they are made there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, I got a quick story about them after
Speaker 3: you made that podcast about going there. I had this
Speaker 3: old pocket knife for my granddad's case knife, and you
Speaker 3: mentioned the number series on it. I think I sent
Speaker 3: you a note on that I cannot find. I look
Speaker 3: at it and I can't find a number to correspond
Speaker 3: with their charts. So I sent him an email. Somebody
Speaker 3: called me anyway, long story short. They said, if there's
Speaker 3: if it looks like yours looks it's pre nineteen forty. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so I know his knife was pre nineteen forty.
Speaker 6: Was this your grandfather? Yeah?
Speaker 3: And this thing is what it is, just and he
Speaker 3: didn't didn't do it on a grinder. He just sharp Now.
Speaker 3: He whittled all the time. They go up to the
Speaker 3: hardware store and loaf they called it loaf. They'd visit
Speaker 3: the old guys whittle, you know, sharpening it every day.
Speaker 3: Oh nice, But I skinned cone with it last year,
Speaker 3: as sharp as could be.
Speaker 2: So anyway, those are good folks Pennsylvania. No, it was
Speaker 2: just a cheap shot I would have taken with anybody.
Speaker 2: I would have taken with anybody.
Speaker 1: Okay, Uh, what stood out, Brent, Like, what what stood
Speaker 1: out to you? What did you learn on this podcast?
Speaker 6: I learned that much like Daniel Boone, ohs only had
Speaker 6: two wives. Oh gonna forget that.
Speaker 2: Maybe, Hey, you know what I had forgotten to is that,
Speaker 2: you know, I was like Boone wouldn't have cheated on Rebecca. Well,
Speaker 2: there's lore also that that Robert Morgan does not buy
Speaker 2: that Rebecca Boone had had a child with Boone's younger brother, Squire.
Speaker 1: I believe it was Squire or Nathan. I can't remember.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, I believe it Squire. And so
Speaker 1: you know, there was a story of Boone coming back
Speaker 1: from a two year hunting trip and his wife is
Speaker 1: Kralen and newborn son. That's lore, but Boone.
Speaker 2: Robert Morgan, the one who wrote the seminal book on Boone,
Speaker 2: said that everybody had that. That was like a common
Speaker 2: fable during that time because people there's no communication and
Speaker 2: men were going on these long trips, and it was
Speaker 2: just a very common fable that when you come home
Speaker 2: your wife has a new child, and so he doesn't
Speaker 2: think it happened.
Speaker 1: But anyway, carry on.
Speaker 6: What stood out to me was when you hear the
Speaker 6: tale of settlers and Native Americans, you immediately think of
Speaker 6: Wyoming in Arizona, New Mexico, and Idaho. You never, me personally,
Speaker 6: never think about Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, everything where it
Speaker 6: initially started. Yeah, you always think about west. But it
Speaker 6: was going on for a long time before it ever
Speaker 6: crossed the Mississippi River, So that that stood out to me,
Speaker 6: and I'm going to kind of inspired me to do
Speaker 6: a little research on my own because it's it's tragic,
Speaker 6: beyond tragic, but very interesting in the history of our nation.
Speaker 1: It's a good point.
Speaker 2: And you know why I think that is is, you know,
Speaker 2: the almost put this in the podcast because I talked
Speaker 2: about how having war on your own land is different
Speaker 2: than having war somewhere else. So America's had a lot
Speaker 2: of wars in other places in the last one hundred years,
Speaker 2: but not here. Do you know when the last battle
Speaker 2: was fought on American soil? Like from a like an
Speaker 2: actual military engagement battle?
Speaker 6: I think, I do, what what would it be? Was
Speaker 6: it a state then in Alaska?
Speaker 1: I nope, nope, I don't think.
Speaker 3: That's that's what I was thinking of.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was, there was an engagement in Alaska Aleutian
Speaker 6: Islands with Russia or something Japan Japanese troops.
Speaker 2: Really Okay, well, there there's probably some caveats. What what
Speaker 2: I learned was the Battle of Wounded Knee in eighteen
Speaker 2: ninety the Sioux Indians. Yeah, I've been there, American American
Speaker 2: government versus the Sioux in eighteen ninety.
Speaker 1: I mean, like that really wasn't that long ago.
Speaker 2: But well, okay, think about you know Osceola spoiler alert,
Speaker 2: he's going to die in eighteen thirty eight on the
Speaker 2: next episode, and.
Speaker 1: He's dead, you know, sixty years later.
Speaker 2: Sixty years later, they're still fighting Native Americans trying to
Speaker 2: drive them out. So point being, Uh, the reason I
Speaker 2: think we we remember of the Indian Wars of the
Speaker 2: West is because they were later when there was photography
Speaker 2: and there was just much more documentation.
Speaker 6: Checked this out. You said that was an eighteen ninety Yeah,
Speaker 6: I was born seventy years later.
Speaker 3: Really, my granddad was born eight.
Speaker 2: Years after that, So you were, you know, a seventy
Speaker 2: year old man or an eighty year old man when
Speaker 2: you were born would have been like, oh yeah, I
Speaker 2: remember the Battle of Wounded and he for real could
Speaker 2: have talked to him.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Man, When you start thinking about history like that, it
Speaker 2: really you realize how short life is, or they or
Speaker 2: how short history history is. I mean, we we think
Speaker 2: like the eighteen hundreds of so long ago. Man, it
Speaker 2: was like yesterday, the.
Speaker 3: Last Civil War. Widow just died recently, yea, oh that's right.
Speaker 1: She was real young when she was married.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but I mean, there's your you're still receiving a pension.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, yeah, uh no, but that's a
Speaker 2: good that's a good point. There was a lot of
Speaker 2: fighting going on over here.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was duking it out everywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kyle, what's that to you?
Speaker 3: Well, the idea of the podcast or your question you
Speaker 3: asked a couple of time is why do they revere
Speaker 3: Osola at the time? Why do we still talk about him?
Speaker 3: And I think that for me what comes through there,
Speaker 3: there's a couple of things. And you know, the deal
Speaker 3: about the treaty, whether he stabbed it or whether he
Speaker 3: waved his knife or whatever he said to the last
Speaker 3: drop of blood, this is it right here. Well, when
Speaker 3: you're that kind of a leader and you have the
Speaker 3: appearance that he had, and they put that kind of
Speaker 3: effort into their appearance, and Indians did that, I mean,
Speaker 3: especially with leader Indians, you know, I mean they wanted
Speaker 3: to look like a strutton, turkey or whatever in the sun.
Speaker 3: They wanted that red. You know. Well, that to me
Speaker 3: is why I think one of the things that he
Speaker 3: was revered at the time, You always revere that kind
Speaker 3: of leader. And I thought to make it full circle.
Speaker 3: My wife is from Osceola County, Iowa. Her dad fought
Speaker 3: in World War Two. His unit, his their crest, regimental
Speaker 3: Crest was to the last man.
Speaker 1: Mmm.
Speaker 3: And there it is, you know, the war. Yeah, the
Speaker 3: warrior hero. You know, it's that doesn't mean everything about
Speaker 3: the person is was, you know, perfect or whatever. But
Speaker 3: when you have that kind of charisma and leadership and
Speaker 3: the ability to lead me in or to take on
Speaker 3: all odds, it's it's always inspiring to people, you know.
Speaker 3: So that's what that's what is it for me?
Speaker 1: What do you guys think about all this stuff?
Speaker 2: Obviously I find it interesting the lore versus what people
Speaker 2: actually think happened. Like, so you got in trouble, well
Speaker 2: with with with the slavery.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that.
Speaker 3: I think she was too hard on you, but go ahead.
Speaker 2: Well I want to talk about that for sure, but like, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, like talking about like did he stab the
Speaker 2: treaty or not?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's probably a pretty good chance
Speaker 1: he did.
Speaker 2: But there's how much poetic license, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: he was there, like we know that he had a knife.
Speaker 2: They said that the guy said he did have a knife,
Speaker 2: that he waved around, I mean.
Speaker 1: Justification. So I went on.
Speaker 2: I actually went online and looked at the treaty. You
Speaker 2: can just type it in, is it was it pains treaty.
Speaker 2: You can type it in and see this handwritten treaty.
Speaker 2: It's like nine pages long that some dude just wrote out,
Speaker 2: just put the date on. I mean, you know what,
Speaker 2: I guess they're not going to print.
Speaker 1: They're not going to be like print the treaty.
Speaker 2: I mean, so it had to be handwritten obviously, but
Speaker 2: but I mean it's just like you couldn't hardly even
Speaker 2: read it, you know, and it's like it's like given,
Speaker 2: it's like seating, you know, all these millions of acres.
Speaker 1: I I didn't see a hole in it. I thought
Speaker 1: I might see like, oh yeah.
Speaker 3: Says I can't read this. It doesn't matter, it's right, you.
Speaker 2: Know, son No, But it's consequential because us, as somebody
Speaker 2: who's interested in history. If you read this book right here,
Speaker 2: which is a good book written by Tom Matt Hatch,
Speaker 2: this is my first book I read, you would one
Speaker 2: percent just think that it was just verified that he
Speaker 2: stabbed a treaty. You would also think that it was
Speaker 2: one hundreds percent black and white. Ostiola was anti slavery
Speaker 2: and was making political gestures about slavery to America with
Speaker 2: his actions. If you read this book, when you read
Speaker 2: doctor Wickman's Ostiola's Legacy Revised Edition, that thing is like
Speaker 2: a hunk of white oak. I mean, this is like
Speaker 2: a this is like dense to the you know, she
Speaker 2: she kind of parses through all that stuff and it's
Speaker 2: like and basically her point about stabbing the treaty is that.
Speaker 1: The guy that the first.
Speaker 2: Time anybody ever wrote about stabbing the treaty was fourteen
Speaker 2: years after the treaty was signed. Nobody came out of
Speaker 2: the meeting and was like fourteen years later when they're
Speaker 2: analyzing it, and you know how they did. Those writers
Speaker 2: back in those days, it's the primary way to communicate
Speaker 2: with the world. There was no television and internet, and
Speaker 2: these guys took a lot. They were very poetic, very
Speaker 2: good writers, took some liberty with stuff. So that's clue
Speaker 2: number one is that fourteen years later is the first
Speaker 2: time that it arises. But then what doctor Wickman says
Speaker 2: is that the one eyewitness account of someone that was
Speaker 2: there that it was documented made no mention of a
Speaker 2: treaty stab.
Speaker 1: So you see what I'm saying. But when you talk
Speaker 1: to Jake, Tiger and.
Speaker 2: Earling, it's pretty it's pretty bold for me to say, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if that happened.
Speaker 6: Well, that the witness, you know, he could have had
Speaker 6: a biased opinion about it, Like I ain't going to
Speaker 6: make this guy look at oh sill, forget that guy.
Speaker 6: I ain't going to give you any kind of props
Speaker 6: or anything. He may have just omitted it.
Speaker 3: I need you to take your knife out of the treaty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but my point is the cultural significance to them
Speaker 2: is so real. Sure, Like I actually wonder if Jake
Speaker 2: and Sterling are upset with me for like bringing it
Speaker 2: to attension that maybe it didn't happen.
Speaker 6: Well, which is the very same reason why they Was
Speaker 6: that eyewitness, uh white or was he a Native American?
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was a white guy.
Speaker 6: So I mean that it would be important for him
Speaker 6: to be looking on the better side of that.
Speaker 3: Frent and I went and interviewed witnesses and had seven statements.
Speaker 3: We might have one that said, oh, yeah, the knife
Speaker 3: was sticking in it, didn't see him do it, But
Speaker 3: you know, it's just gonna be hard to really pin down.
Speaker 5: My friend Brent Reeves says, the best way to get
Speaker 5: conflicting stories is to get to eyewitnesses.
Speaker 1: The same thing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, one got to be saying, well it was Tuesday,
Speaker 6: it was thirteen minutes ago. Yeah, yeah, it's a different.
Speaker 2: Well, I I hope it also came through that regardless
Speaker 2: of whether it happened or it didn't, it didn't matter, right,
Speaker 2: Like it it branded the seminoles with with with it,
Speaker 2: with the kind of this identity that they already had,
Speaker 2: Like it fit the narrative that was true.
Speaker 5: Which may have been that writer's license to make the
Speaker 5: statement if it wasn't true.
Speaker 2: Right, And I mean, and whether he did it or not,
Speaker 2: it's not like, well Osciola was a coward because he
Speaker 2: didn't stab it, Like you see what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: It's like we all know he was brandishing the knife. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and nobody said put that uh yeah yeah, clap that
Speaker 5: guy in irons.
Speaker 1: Yeah okay. So yeah.
Speaker 2: The now, this is where I've yet to determine if
Speaker 2: I'm kind of like in trouble or not, because man,
Speaker 2: talking about this stuff is not you tell, there's there's
Speaker 2: risk cultural risk in today's world about talking about race
Speaker 2: and different things like this, and uh fact, well, but
Speaker 2: that's just the thing. Doctor Wickman was adamant of what
Speaker 2: she told me, and I didn't play the whole even
Speaker 2: being fair to doctor Wickman too. We talked about that
Speaker 2: for probably thirty minutes. You guys probably heard six minutes.
Speaker 3: That's what I thought. I thought, she's a little hard
Speaker 3: on you. She's golded you a little bit, you know,
Speaker 3: and then proceeded to tell you how they were culturvated.
Speaker 1: Okay, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3: I mean, but I think she wanted to make sure
Speaker 3: the whole story was there, not just some you know, real.
Speaker 1: So you're saying, you're saying.
Speaker 3: They were eventually, I mean, they were living. They said,
Speaker 3: you know that when the Blacks came in, they they
Speaker 3: didn't just readily accept them, but they knew they could
Speaker 3: produce food and so they had a deal with and
Speaker 3: some of them, they talk about some of them would
Speaker 3: fight with them. Well that's a cultureating, right, I said, that,
Speaker 3: isn't that them?
Speaker 6: One hundred percent?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think you were right. It's just that
Speaker 3: you think he maybe didn't what you go on two fasts, what.
Speaker 2: She was trying to stamp out, which she did a
Speaker 2: good job of, which I mean according to her, and
Speaker 2: I trust what she says was that it wasn't like
Speaker 2: a political statement about slavery, because you go to the
Speaker 2: Wikipedia page today for Ostiola and it says Ostiola was
Speaker 2: anti slavery and that's why people liked him, essentially, And
Speaker 2: she was like, no, no, no, no, no no, no, like
Speaker 2: you know that.
Speaker 6: You're going to put something on Wikipedia, right, yeah.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean much exactly, I'm gonna put a clay
Speaker 2: nukeleman it.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 6: It was also left handed, twirl the knife twice. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well so yeah, it kind of got to the
Speaker 1: same place. And I liked her.
Speaker 3: I don't mean I'm not saying anthing against her. I
Speaker 3: just thought, wait a minute, I think it's kind of real.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but but again to her credit, I think
Speaker 2: it's easy to take a narrative and Migo Ossio it
Speaker 2: was anti slavery. They assimilated, you know, these these enslaved people,
Speaker 2: formerly enslaved people into their tribes and just made them
Speaker 2: like seminoles.
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, it wasn't not really quite like that,
Speaker 1: even though that's kind of where it got.
Speaker 6: To It wasn't like they was like, oh y'all, come
Speaker 6: on down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it didn't happen like.
Speaker 2: You know, like you and you think about disenfranchised people
Speaker 2: of that time, these two groups of people were we're
Speaker 2: at the at the bottom of the of the tiered
Speaker 2: system in America. I mean, I don't think the seminoles
Speaker 2: were like, they weren't viewing enslaved people as like a
Speaker 2: group of people that needed to be protected. Right, do
Speaker 2: you see what I'm saying. Yeah, I mean they were.
Speaker 2: They were fighting for their lives to worry about.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's not like they were like, you know what,
Speaker 1: we're going to be charitable.
Speaker 5: Well again again again we're looking at these things through
Speaker 5: our own cultural interpretation. You know, we've talked plenty about
Speaker 5: how we see things you just mentioned about centralized government,
Speaker 5: and the Indians didn't even have a concept of that. I mean,
Speaker 5: we don't know, we don't know how they viewed slavery.
Speaker 5: We don't know how they would have viewed these people
Speaker 5: coming in and in their mind they might have just
Speaker 5: been friend or foe, you know what I mean. It's
Speaker 5: not about not about whether we should assimilate, you know,
Speaker 5: or stand up for your rights as a human. I
Speaker 5: don't know that that was a perspective of the natives
Speaker 5: of the Seminoles at that time.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Well what what also wasn't disputed was that they owned slaves.
Speaker 1: They owned African slaves, because.
Speaker 5: The Semino it's documented that the owned African slaves. Well,
Speaker 5: I think that's pretty good, pretty good.
Speaker 3: Well, they purchased something purchased.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean because when they when they were
Speaker 2: trying trying to move the trial, and this is where
Speaker 2: I believe that doctor Wickman and and all these other
Speaker 2: guys say it too, but was when they were trying
Speaker 2: to move them to Oklahoma, the United States government was
Speaker 2: buying their livestock, buying different stuff from them to try
Speaker 2: to compensate them for because they were gonna have to
Speaker 2: leave all that stuff there and leave, which is just
Speaker 2: a wild thought, but they were.
Speaker 6: They were.
Speaker 1: There was controversy over what to do with their slaves.
Speaker 2: Because they were like, well, we're not going to pay
Speaker 2: you for a slave that escaped from this guy up
Speaker 2: in Georgia, that that slave, that enslaved person is going
Speaker 2: back to that guy. We're not paying you for something
Speaker 2: that basically was stolen, but they paid.
Speaker 1: For him for somebody I don't know. It's wild, so wild.
Speaker 3: It's never just black and white, cut and dry. It's
Speaker 3: always the z In diagram of some kind. You know,
Speaker 3: there's stuff in here and stuff over here and stuff so,
Speaker 3: which is kind of cool, which is why I appreciate
Speaker 3: you wading in there with these kind of stories, because
Speaker 3: it's the Seminoles history, it's our history, and it's all
Speaker 3: American history. We're all Americans, and the more we know
Speaker 3: how this all went, the better off we are. I think. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't think it's bad at all. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: you take the arrows.
Speaker 2: But well, and the reason I said I don't know
Speaker 2: that I'm not in trouble yet is and I'm kind
Speaker 2: of I don't really think. I don't really mean that,
Speaker 2: but there are And this is what I just don't understand.
Speaker 2: Like we didn't cover the whole topic. I mean, we
Speaker 2: talked about it for like eight minutes, right, so that
Speaker 2: is not the final definitive story on you know, African
Speaker 2: slaves and the Seminoles.
Speaker 1: But there are people that they called the black.
Speaker 2: Seminoles in Florida that I mean, I don't know the
Speaker 2: whole the complexity of the whole story.
Speaker 1: But it's it's very interesting. What bear what stood out
Speaker 1: to you?
Speaker 2: I told you I was gonna yeah, kind of the
Speaker 2: biggest thing that I thought was interesting was whenever you
Speaker 2: were talking about and doctor Wickman was talking about the
Speaker 2: way that they viewed the land, like the part about
Speaker 2: the you know knows the deer.
Speaker 1: That was cool just because.
Speaker 2: That's just not a way that I could ever, Like,
Speaker 2: I can't really imagine being able to think that way,
Speaker 2: to not have a perfect idea in your mind of
Speaker 2: right where you're at on a map, but just to
Speaker 2: kind of have like a general understanding of it.
Speaker 1: But then also the way that.
Speaker 2: They kind of viewed like land ownership, Like you know,
Speaker 2: they kind of viewed the land as like something they
Speaker 2: occupy and more of like a privilege, something to take
Speaker 2: care of, which is just like so far outside of
Speaker 2: my realm of thought.
Speaker 1: Just you know, like when I think of land, I
Speaker 1: think who owns it?
Speaker 2: You know, like it's not an exact it's not a
Speaker 2: there's there's no question of you know, it's like every
Speaker 2: piece of land right now that I could go to
Speaker 2: someone owns. So that was just kind of like whenever
Speaker 2: I tried to think about that and actually think about
Speaker 2: the way that they would have thought about land, it
Speaker 2: was actually like kind of it was difficult to actually
Speaker 2: wrap my right mind around it.
Speaker 6: It was the way you know, I grew up in
Speaker 6: Southeast Arkansas. It was a big timber company owns acres
Speaker 6: and acres and acres that's now least in sectioned off
Speaker 6: when I was a kid. When I was your age
Speaker 6: was not. There was no leasing. You just were hunting
Speaker 6: wherever you wanted to. And that's I get a glimpse
Speaker 6: of how they were looking.
Speaker 1: Because people had kind of territories.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but you didn't. But everything was you couldn't get
Speaker 6: any there was no recourse. There was no backlash if
Speaker 6: you went somewhere because it was open to everybody. Yeah,
Speaker 6: but it was private land, probably owned by the timber company.
Speaker 6: It's much like going into a WMA. Right now, you know,
Speaker 6: some guy a trigger out beside you. You can't say
Speaker 6: nothing about it. Yeah, but it was along what you're
Speaker 6: talking about there and talking about the cypress tree being
Speaker 6: the first thing they described. You remember that part, yeah,
Speaker 6: where she was taking those pictures down there. Yeah, and
Speaker 6: they immediately recognized that cy tree. That was I thought
Speaker 6: that's where you was going with that. That is so yeah,
Speaker 6: it was really cool.
Speaker 3: Well, the picture I got in my head when you're
Speaker 3: talking about them figuring that out is a couple of
Speaker 3: Indians on the ground drawing it out. I guess they're
Speaker 3: the shape of Florida, you know that. That's how I
Speaker 3: figured they maybe got it in their heads. Or then
Speaker 3: somebody said the those of the deer. It was like
Speaker 3: a deer, yeah or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it also made sense like how like whenever
Speaker 2: the Europeans came over, they kind of had this mindset
Speaker 2: of the land just as some sort of you know,
Speaker 2: they kind of had like a utilitarian mindset on just
Speaker 2: like you know, because it wasn't a place that they
Speaker 2: would have lived and grown up in, like whereas the
Speaker 2: Seminoles they would have lived grown up there for generation
Speaker 2: and after generation after generation, so it would have kind
Speaker 2: of been like this land that was it wasn't theirs,
Speaker 2: but it was like, you know, it was just like
Speaker 2: their home, whereas like the Europeans come in its land
Speaker 2: they've never seen before, and so immediately it's just kind
Speaker 2: of like.
Speaker 1: The you know, the utilitarian commodity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the mindset of like, you know, dividing it up
Speaker 2: who owns it, and it was just a different way
Speaker 2: to think about it.
Speaker 1: And really it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: I mean, like if you think about it, you know,
Speaker 2: we're just you know, what gives us the right to
Speaker 2: just like claim a piece of land.
Speaker 6: Durance, it's just ours right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it has a cute little phrase about it's just
Speaker 2: our turn.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Leopold said something like that too, but stewardship of
Speaker 3: it for now or something, you know, but it's kind
Speaker 3: of we looked at it as unoccupied. That's the problem.
Speaker 3: That's wild open country.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1: You know when you think about I've said this before,
Speaker 1: I said it back.
Speaker 2: In the Boon series, but if you if it's pretty
Speaker 2: agreed upon that human civilization started somewhere in the in
Speaker 2: the Middle Eastern area.
Speaker 1: I mean, anthropologists.
Speaker 2: Agree with that, the Bible agrees with that, like human
Speaker 2: civilization kind of started like in that part of the world.
Speaker 1: The peopling of America.
Speaker 2: The best understanding that we have today is that that
Speaker 2: humans came into North America from the west, you know,
Speaker 2: from the from the baring Land Bridge.
Speaker 1: And the Kelp Highway.
Speaker 2: Now they're quite certain that it wasn't actually across the
Speaker 2: baring Land Bridge, but came down the Kelp Highway via
Speaker 2: water down the down the western coast and came into
Speaker 2: Washington and the Alaskan Lutian Islands and or the Alexander
Speaker 2: Archipelago islands point being Native Americans came from. If they start,
Speaker 2: if humans kind of like started in the Middle East,
Speaker 2: some people people went into Asia, some people went into Europe,
Speaker 2: and thousands and thousands and thousands of years later they
Speaker 2: went opposite ways on the globe. And then they met
Speaker 2: again for the for the first time in Florida. I
Speaker 2: mean this, Yeah, I mean, so so these humans that
Speaker 2: were the same species that had been separated for time
Speaker 2: that we can't really understand, and but they were both humans,
Speaker 2: and they had these different ideas of what it meant
Speaker 2: to be human. And that would be a great example
Speaker 2: land Like somehow the Europeans, you know, probably because of
Speaker 2: civilization or because of this technology and there was more agriculture,
Speaker 2: they were building cities, they were you.
Speaker 1: Think maybe like higher population densities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure, higher population densities. And and then
Speaker 2: and so they were like, hey, we got we got
Speaker 2: to figure out who owns this land. We're going to
Speaker 2: draw lines on a map. We're going to make a map.
Speaker 2: We're gonna have lines, and people are going to be
Speaker 2: able to buy. You know, they they formulated this complex
Speaker 2: system of land ownership and this ideology about land and
Speaker 2: how humans interacted with it. And then you know, these
Speaker 2: people that were here in North America, you know, especially
Speaker 2: early on, it would have been this vast, unpeopled continent,
Speaker 2: and they developed doctrines and ways they thought about anyway,
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden they collided. You know,
Speaker 2: it's interesting. That's very simplified, but it's it's interesting. Yeah, Josh,
Speaker 2: what will end with?
Speaker 5: I thought that was really interesting. But one of the
Speaker 5: things that I always appreciate is getting to hear straight
Speaker 5: from seminoles, you know what I mean, when we have
Speaker 5: a topic to speak to someone who's in indigenous and
Speaker 5: and uh, you know, I appreciated what what Jake Tiger
Speaker 5: had to share about about Osciola not being a chief.
Speaker 5: I think that's a common common thing that we think
Speaker 5: about that if they're a leader. There what.
Speaker 1: Analogy?
Speaker 5: I thought it was effective. I thought it was it
Speaker 5: was a good, good, u good analogy. But you know,
Speaker 5: just thinking about about who Osciola was to be able
Speaker 5: to draw in and to fill people with with vision
Speaker 5: of what what they're going to do. That's what made
Speaker 5: him a leader, not because he had a title or
Speaker 5: a birthright, but really because of who he was and
Speaker 5: his ability to fight and his ability to draw people in.
Speaker 5: I thought that was really interesting. What what what Jake
Speaker 5: Tiger had to share about?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So we're we're trying to get Sterling hard Joe to
Speaker 2: come on the next render. Cool that we do so
Speaker 2: Sterling he's a busy guy in a in a in
Speaker 2: a of he's got a lot going on in his life,
Speaker 2: but he's probably going to be here with us, which
Speaker 2: would be really cool. I would have had all those
Speaker 2: guys on every render if they could have come. You know,
Speaker 2: it's just hard to get get people here. But the
Speaker 2: next episode, I'm really excited about it because it's just
Speaker 2: if you think this is interesting, I think this next
Speaker 2: one is even going to be more interesting in a way.
Speaker 2: Oscio Oscillo is going to die. Oh and he died.
Speaker 2: He dies in an American prison in South Carolina, and
Speaker 2: uh where the whole podcast is about his death and
Speaker 2: about doctor Patricia Wickman, who spent a good portion of
Speaker 2: her career searching for Osilo's.
Speaker 6: Head bum bum bumb.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, it's pretty fascinating, pretty fascinating.
Speaker 6: Up, I'm listening, just can't wait.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's gonna be a good one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, been good so far.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks guys, anything else, Josh, we're supposed to talk, I.
Speaker 5: Don't think so. Just be on the lookout for that
Speaker 5: Bear Grease Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1: Ah, Bear Grease Hall of Fame. It's gonna be going
Speaker 1: so good.
Speaker 2: Yep, I'm going to I'm going to Kansas, like right now,
Speaker 2: like when y'all. I mean, I probably won't even say.
Speaker 1: Bye to y'alla.
Speaker 6: Climb out the window.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm probably gonna climb out the window. So we're
Speaker 2: recording this on October thirtieth, Tomorrow is Halloween, and there's
Speaker 2: a big front coming tonight, and I'm going to Kansas
Speaker 2: bow hunting. I got a Kansas boy that reminds me
Speaker 2: I better bring my dad come Kansas tag.
Speaker 1: I was gonna I was gonna run off and leave that.
Speaker 6: Daniel Boone had two wives.
Speaker 2: Keep the wild places wild because that's where the bears live.
Speaker 1: Boone only had one wife.
Speaker 2: Doubtful he cortered her at the cherry at the cherry
Speaker 2: tree when they were fourteen.
Speaker 1: Man, come on, he would have never cheated on him.
Speaker 1: Cut that off.