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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Serial killers. Many people in

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Speaker 1: the general public don't believe they exist, like the Boogeyman

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Speaker 1: at Halloween, that it's all just folklore that is not true.

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Speaker 1: And there are many, many more serial killers than the

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Speaker 1: ones we know of. Ted Bundy, the clown Killer, BTK

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Speaker 1: buying torture, killed Dennis Rador. It goes on and on

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Speaker 1: and on, the Son of Sam Just. You can name

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Speaker 1: them off the top of your head. If you ever

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Speaker 1: watch TV, or if you ever read crime reports, unless

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Speaker 1: you've been living under a rod in a deep dark

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Speaker 1: cave in another country, you have heard of serial killers.

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Speaker 1: The fact that there are many more of them than

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Speaker 1: have ever been uncovered remains. First of all, take a

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Speaker 1: listen to this call to San Francisco p D. The

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Speaker 1: day is January twenty seven, nineteen seventy four, and the

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Speaker 1: time is now ten thirty am. We're going to take

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Speaker 1: a portion of the radio transmission that occurred last night

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Speaker 1: at approximately one twenty five am. That would be twenty

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Speaker 1: seventh of January nineteen seventy four. One five am. Um,

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Speaker 1: have right across from our street, found through rig through

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Speaker 1: water arter here. But I didn't warn you here okay,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think of their puperior. Don want to

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Speaker 1: from here. I really felt, ok that's bring it back.

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Speaker 1: A dead body on the beach right across from Uloa Street.

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Speaker 1: This nine moment call comes into San Francisco Police tipping

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Speaker 1: off what turns out to be the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you see, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nation and

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Speaker 1: Sirius XM one eleven. When we say serial killer, it's

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Speaker 1: not always a serial killer you imagine. I mentioned, for instance,

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, who would stalk his female victims all across

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Speaker 1: the country, culminating and a spree at the Kio House

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Speaker 1: in Florida buying torture killed. BTK killer Dennish Raider would

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Speaker 1: stalk women when he was on his job as a

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Speaker 1: dog catcher, also a deacon at his church, identifying targets.

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Speaker 1: We still to this day don't know how many victims

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Speaker 1: are connected to many serial killers who are household names,

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Speaker 1: like Israel Keys. He came to light after the murder

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Speaker 1: of an Alaska barista, Samantha Koenig, who was standing in

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Speaker 1: her coffee stand and suddenly was not her murder uncovered

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Speaker 1: the murders of women and men all across the country.

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Speaker 1: The m's modus operendi, method of operation varying wildly. While

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Speaker 1: he took her from a offee stand amidst a snow bank,

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Speaker 1: he would go and hunt at RV parks, at campgrounds.

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Speaker 1: We have one killer shooting like a sniper, and two campgrounds.

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Speaker 1: You have the DC snipers, serial killers who don't know

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Speaker 1: their victims, just picked them out at a distance and

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Speaker 1: fire killing one after the next after the next. Their

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Speaker 1: methods of operation often very but yet they are all

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Speaker 1: serial killers. Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories,

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Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and series seem one eleven. You

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Speaker 1: were just hearing that that victim dead on the beach

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Speaker 1: was one of many. With me an all star panel

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Speaker 1: to make some sense of what we know right now.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Katherine Ramslond, Professor forensic psychology, Assistant Provost at de

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Speaker 1: Sale University in Pennsylvania and the author of How to

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Speaker 1: Catch a Killer. Her psychology to date blog is shadow Boxing.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. Matthew Mangino, high profile lawyer joining US former

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Speaker 1: prosecutor of the District attorney in Lawrence County and author

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Speaker 1: of the Executioner's Toll. Cheryl McCollum with me, founder director

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Speaker 1: of the Coldcase Research Institute. I met her in the

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Speaker 1: trenches fighting crime, and now she is at Coldcase Crimes

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Speaker 1: dot Org. Professor Forensics, jacksonvill State University, author of Blood

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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starving You Hit series

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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeart Joining us, But

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Speaker 1: first I want to go to Alexis terreschut Crime online

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Speaker 1: dot com, investigative reporter. You know, serial killers go under

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Speaker 1: men many disguises. Let me just say, guys, is they're

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Speaker 1: not always disguised as you would think of in a costume.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember it hit the news, the headlines because

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Speaker 1: it was Ashton Kushner's girlfriend that was murdered, but her

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Speaker 1: killer had murdered many, many other people. And we're finding,

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Speaker 1: Alexis Terreschuk that once you identify one, you solve one case,

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Speaker 1: you get that killer, that killer can be linked to

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Speaker 1: many other cases. Have you seen that in your experience

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Speaker 1: in investigative reporting, Alexis yes. And the thing is there

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Speaker 1: have been there will be people that are didn't die,

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Speaker 1: but they were victims of some sort of horrific trauma

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Speaker 1: by the person, the serial killer who's killed a lot

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Speaker 1: of other people, and these are often the key to

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Speaker 1: the case. They will finally come forward, maybe decades later,

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Speaker 1: they're embarrassed about what happened, embarrassed with and they will

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Speaker 1: say I know this person because I was a victim

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Speaker 1: of assault by them, I wasn't killed, and then that

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Speaker 1: will open up a flood of other people as well.

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Speaker 1: So there are living victims that can come forward when

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Speaker 1: there is a serial killer. And we see that happening

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Speaker 1: right now, Cheryl McCallum, in a case that you have

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Speaker 1: worked on tirelessly, the murders of Abigail and Libby and Delphi,

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Speaker 1: the two girls on the bridge. Right now, police are

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Speaker 1: sending out information regarding a catfisher, a guy who used

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Speaker 1: a kind of a Justin Biebermel look alike model as

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Speaker 1: his fake photo to catfish little girls to get photos

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Speaker 1: of them naked semi nude, get their home addresses trying

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Speaker 1: to meet up with him. The police are asking for

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Speaker 1: anyone that has been in contact with him in the

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Speaker 1: hopes that they can make a case in the Delphi murders.

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Speaker 1: Just what Alexis was just saying, absolutely, and they're going

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Speaker 1: to take that and kind of spider web it out

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Speaker 1: to see if they can connect him not only to

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Speaker 1: other victims, but also the area. Did he want to

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Speaker 1: meet anybody else near there or at the bridge specifically?

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Speaker 1: But Nancy, I want to point out one thing if

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Speaker 1: I can, about the call that was made. It was

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Speaker 1: interesting to me on that call where he says I

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Speaker 1: found a dead person, he leaves it gender neutral, which

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Speaker 1: is really odd, and then he feels the need to

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Speaker 1: explain why he's calling the police. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: let's take a listen to that one more time. You're

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Speaker 1: absolutely correct. And I used to love to play Naimo

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Speaker 1: on calls to a jury because it takes you to

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Speaker 1: the time, to the scene, to the moment something is

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Speaker 1: happening and expresses like no opening or closing argument. Ever,

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Speaker 1: could what really happened? Listen? January twenty seven, eighteen seventy four,

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Speaker 1: China is now transfer shows that occurred last night at

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Speaker 1: approximately one twenty five am. That would be twenty seventh

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Speaker 1: of January nineteen seventy four, one twenty five am. I wait,

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Speaker 1: there might be a dead cursin um right across from

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Speaker 1: a lower street, a lower street. If you follow the

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Speaker 1: street right down to the water. I'll work behind here

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Speaker 1: and I have to many learn there. But I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to get too close to here now Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't think necessary. I didn't want to let somebody

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Speaker 1: now maybe need helpers, So colpers right, ducord, Oh, okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: let's take it out. Okay, they sucked a lot magical scare.

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Speaker 1: After my days of prosecuting, I still have dreams about

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Speaker 1: finding a dead body. Once you have seen a dead body,

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Speaker 1: once you have been to homicide scene, I don't think

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Speaker 1: you ever really get over it. It's nothing like in

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Speaker 1: the movies, Nothing like that at all. So who is

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Speaker 1: the killer? We now believe one killer is connected to

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Speaker 1: at least six dead bodies. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: cut three from ABC. Police in San Francisco are offering

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Speaker 1: a one hundred thousand dollars reward in the cold case

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Speaker 1: of a killer who terrorized gay men in the nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 1: They've released an original sketch of the suspect, known as

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Speaker 1: the Doodler, along with another sketch showing what he may

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Speaker 1: look like. Today, police believe he stabbed at least five

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Speaker 1: men to death. They're waiting test results from DNA found

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Speaker 1: at some crime scenes. The suspect was nicknamed the Doodler

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Speaker 1: because he was reportedly doodling when he met a victim

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Speaker 1: at a bar and our cut f one our friends

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Speaker 1: at the San Francisco Chronicle. The Doodler serial killings was

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Speaker 1: what was was not well known, uh it was. It

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Speaker 1: happened in nineteen seventy four seventy five, and there was

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Speaker 1: a there was a killer who would go into gay

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Speaker 1: bars and uh to pick a person, draw a sketch

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Speaker 1: of them, and then go up and say, hey, like

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Speaker 1: my sketch, and if you like the sketch, off, they'd

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Speaker 1: go uh to you know, to a private place and

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Speaker 1: they wind up getting stabbed at it. And this happened

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Speaker 1: at least five times. And my partner Mike Taylor on

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Speaker 1: the project and I found a sixth victim as well,

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Speaker 1: and there may be more. Um. The thing that happened

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Speaker 1: was it was not well covered in the mall was

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Speaker 1: barely covered at all in the mainstream media because at

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Speaker 1: the time, uh it was, it was it was oppressive

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Speaker 1: for for gay people, for gays and lesbians, certainly transgender people.

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Speaker 1: It was there were still sonomy laws on the books,

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Speaker 1: cross dressing laws. You can get arrested for walking down

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Speaker 1: the street and holding hands with someone of the same sex.

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Speaker 1: So these things were fairly ignored, and that made it

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Speaker 1: easier for the doodler to work his horror. It really did,

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Speaker 1: you're just hearing Kevin Fagan. He is the host of

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Speaker 1: the Doodler podcast. Alexis Terreschu crime online dot com investigative reporter.

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Speaker 1: According to one survivor, the mo would be to doodle

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Speaker 1: or jaw caricatures of the intended victim and then approach

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Speaker 1: the victim and go, hey, what do you think about this?

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Speaker 1: That's very disarming, it is, and that's what the police

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Speaker 1: have said. The inspector in the seven he said he

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Speaker 1: would often sit in bars doodling caricatures and cartoons on napkins.

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Speaker 1: Then he would show it to people and that would

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Speaker 1: be very disarming because she thinks, oh, this is you know,

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Speaker 1: what a talented young artist this guy is, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you love to see somebody with a talent, especially San

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Speaker 1: Francisco's arty town. So it wouldn't have been anything out

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Speaker 1: of the normal there. Take a listen to our cut five,

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Speaker 1: our friends and our friends at NBC. The reason why

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Speaker 1: investigators call him the Doodler is because a survivor says

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Speaker 1: that the suspect was actually doodling a sketch of him

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Speaker 1: as they were talking with each other at a neighborhood

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Speaker 1: diner here in San Francisco, but that survivor never testified

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Speaker 1: because he didn't want to be outed at the time. Now,

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Speaker 1: investigators are hoping that more reward money and information on

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Speaker 1: a sixth victim will help more people come forward so

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Speaker 1: that they can close this case. These composite sketches of

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Speaker 1: the so called Doodlers show how he may have looked

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five and how he could look decades later.

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Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Today, the San Francisco Police Department doubled

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Speaker 1: the reward money in this cold case to two hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. They've also connected a sixth victim, Warren Andrews,

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Speaker 1: who was an attorney for the US Postal Service and

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Speaker 1: San Bruno at the time. San Francisco Chronicle reporter Kevin

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Speaker 1: Fagan has been following this case for years now. By

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Speaker 1: adding Warren Andrews as a sixth victim, to the role

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Speaker 1: of people that the Doodler killed that could jock people's

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Speaker 1: memories Prime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking

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Speaker 1: about a little known serial killer called the Doodler. Just

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Speaker 1: got Morgan. The drawings are very revealing in my mind. Forensically,

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Speaker 1: what do they prove, if anything? We know he would

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Speaker 1: draw the victim. We know he would draw animals, caricatures,

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Speaker 1: cartoonists sometimes, what if anything does that reveal as to

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Speaker 1: his identity. He often said he was an art student

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Speaker 1: as well. I don't know if that's true. Well, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it talks a lot about his identity,

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Speaker 1: but I think that it talks about his comfort level

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Speaker 1: with getting really close to the victims. And to me,

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Speaker 1: that's quite striking, particularly when you, you know, you begin

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Speaker 1: to talk about the level of violence, the intimate violence

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Speaker 1: that went on in these cases, and so he felt

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Speaker 1: I think at least and this is kind of doctor

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Speaker 1: Ramsland's Bailey Wick, but you know that he felt comfortable

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Speaker 1: enough to be in that environment and begin to kind

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Speaker 1: of track these individuals and essentially hunt them. And so

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Speaker 1: that tells a lot about this individual. You know, what

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Speaker 1: you're right. Let's go to doctor Catherine Ramsland, Professor forensic psychology.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of it, doctor Ramsland? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: do think that he was comfortable where he was. He

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Speaker 1: wasn't getting caught. I think he was methodical, and I

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Speaker 1: think he probably was motivated by either a mission to

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Speaker 1: eliminate gay people because he had issues with it, or

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Speaker 1: these were hate crimes because this is like an interracial thing,

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Speaker 1: so he clearly felt comfortable if he's the suspect that

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Speaker 1: they do have. He seemed to be an attractive young

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Speaker 1: man who easily talk to people, and yet and wasn't caught,

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Speaker 1: so he would have felt empowered by that. To Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 1: what do you make of the suggestion of it being

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Speaker 1: a hate crime? Do you think the doodler is acting

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Speaker 1: out of racial hate or hate because the victims are gay?

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Speaker 1: I think he may himself be gay. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: think the suspect pool can be narrowed in several ways. One,

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Speaker 1: this person is not afraid of going into a gay

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Speaker 1: bar and staying for a long period of time and

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Speaker 1: making conversation. So somebody that you know hate gay people

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Speaker 1: or doesn't feel comfortable in that environment wouldn't get them

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Speaker 1: in that way. He would maybe get him in the

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Speaker 1: parking lot, but not inside a bar. He's also not

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Speaker 1: afraid of being seen inside that bar and being outed

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Speaker 1: by anyone. To me, that makes a big difference. Number Two,

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Speaker 1: he can draw. He's got artistic ability. He stated he

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Speaker 1: went to art school. So that's going to narrow your

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Speaker 1: suspect pool. Again. The biggest thing for me. In the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, African Americans in San Francisco made up thirteen percent.

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Speaker 1: You take out women, you're at about seven percent. You

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Speaker 1: take out children, you're at about four percent. And then

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Speaker 1: you take around his age range, Nancy, we're at about

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Speaker 1: three percent. And then you take how many in that

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Speaker 1: group are potentially gay. You ain't talking about one percent

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Speaker 1: of the population. So your suspect pool is very, very small,

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Speaker 1: very small. I'd like, yeah, I'd like to add one

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Speaker 1: more thing to this. Three of the victims that I

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Speaker 1: find this kind of fascinating from my perspective, Three of

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Speaker 1: these victims were actually immigrants. You've got one Swedish American immigrant,

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Speaker 1: you've got one individual that's German American immigrant, and you've

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Speaker 1: got another person who may be the very first victim

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Speaker 1: that was a recent Canadian immigrant to the US. So

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Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any connectivity there, but I

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Speaker 1: find that kind of interesting as well. And one of

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Speaker 1: the survivors too, I think, yes, yes, you're absolutely right, Katherine.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen now to Kevin Fagan. He is the

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Speaker 1: host of the Doodler podcast. Turns out there's three three

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Speaker 1: people who may have survived this killer. The third man

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Speaker 1: he actually did talk to the police. He was hog

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Speaker 1: tied and attacked and stabbed, and he screamed so loudly

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Speaker 1: that his neighbors chased the Doodler away. He's dead by

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Speaker 1: all accounts, and the diplomat is still alive. The diplomat

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk. The diplomat is still scared. I

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Speaker 1: don't blame him. All these years later, the Doodler is

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Speaker 1: probably still alive, and the actor. I have a pretty

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Speaker 1: good idea who the actor is, but he doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to come out of the closet, even all these years later.

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Speaker 1: To Cheryl mccolluman joining us in the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: it's going to make it even more difficult to solve

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Speaker 1: Number one. Not many people have heard of the Doodler

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Speaker 1: serial killer. I mean, you hear a son of Sam,

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Speaker 1: you hear a Bundy, you hear of Charles Manson. You

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Speaker 1: just hear all these names you associate with serial killers.

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Speaker 1: Most people have never even heard of the Doodler. I

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Speaker 1: noticed prosecuting sex crimes. In rape cases, many women did

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Speaker 1: not want to come forward for whatever reason. And in

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Speaker 1: this case, a lot of guys are still living as

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Speaker 1: if they're heterosexual. They don't want their family, much less

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Speaker 1: the public at large knowing they're gay. So it's going

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Speaker 1: to be very hard, very difficult to solve this case

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Speaker 1: if you can't get the victims to talk. Sure. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about the seventies when people were still being

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Speaker 1: openly attacked. There were laws on the books against sodomy,

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Speaker 1: so you know, of course they didn't want to come forward.

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Speaker 1: But Nancy, we saw this even as late as the

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six when we had the gay bar bombing

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and some of those victims were more concerned

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Speaker 1: about being outed, being taken out of the barroom stretchers

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Speaker 1: than they were about being hurt in a bomb. So

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Speaker 1: you know, it's understandable that they're scared and they don't

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Speaker 1: want to come forward and have their lives turned upside

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Speaker 1: down again. There is a composite sketch of the Doodler

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Speaker 1: taken all the way back when the murders started, and

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Speaker 1: recently there is a sketch they've been provided to us

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Speaker 1: by the San Francisco Police Department, a front sketch and

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Speaker 1: a profile sketch. And as Cheryl McCollum pointed out, the

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Speaker 1: population of blackmails gay in San Francisco go at that

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Speaker 1: time was relatively low. The igniting of the Doodler case

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Speaker 1: occurred because a sixth victim is now linked to the Doodler.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut F two Kevin Fagan.

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Speaker 1: He is the host of the Doodler podcast. The theory

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Speaker 1: is that the Doodler attacked Warren Andrews on a bluff

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Speaker 1: overlooking the ocean and a place called Land's End, and

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Speaker 1: Andrews got up and fought him, and the knife went

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Speaker 1: flying over the cliff. So the Dudler picked up the

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Speaker 1: nearest weapons at hand, which was a rock in a

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Speaker 1: tree branch, and you've finished it off. So we're talking

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Speaker 1: about this particular victim. Warren Andrews to Alexis Terrestia Crime

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Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter. What can you tell me

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Speaker 1: about Warren Andrews and why is he just now being

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Speaker 1: linked to the Doodler. Well, when his body was found,

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Speaker 1: he was not. It did not appear that he was

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Speaker 1: a victim of a stabbing, and the five previous victims

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Speaker 1: were all stabs, so they weren't There was not a

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Speaker 1: connection there, and so they didn't put it together. It

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Speaker 1: also wasn't as close to the area as the other

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Speaker 1: victims were found. They were found in different places, that

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Speaker 1: this was a new location, so they just they didn't

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Speaker 1: put it together. They didn't think that this was the

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Speaker 1: thing because there wasn't a stabbing, because the other five

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Speaker 1: had all been stabbings, and they thought, why would somebody,

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Speaker 1: you know, change their method of murder, and so that

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Speaker 1: they just didn't connect it. But then all these years

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Speaker 1: later they've decided that this was probably the same thing too.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Katherine Ramslin joining us, author of How to Catch

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Speaker 1: a Killer. Serial killers do change their mo They don't

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Speaker 1: always kill in the same way, correct, They do change

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Speaker 1: their m O. And especially if that circumstance was true

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Speaker 1: that they that he lost the knife, but they will

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Speaker 1: change them to achieve their goals. It's also in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy four seventy five, we really haven't much by way

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Speaker 1: of linkage analysis. At that time, the FBI's profiling program

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Speaker 1: had not even gotten going yet, and there really wasn't

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Speaker 1: any sense of how do you link these The geography

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Speaker 1: and the victim type should have been enough because it

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Speaker 1: was within that range it was in the time period,

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Speaker 1: but because of the difference in the murder weapon, they

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Speaker 1: didn't link it. But there's no reason to think it

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Speaker 1: wasn't even a myth at that time that serial killers

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Speaker 1: always use the same weapon because there weren't any databases

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Speaker 1: at the time. Cold case detectives Dan Cunningham and Dan

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Speaker 1: Ddett have been trying to solve the Doodler killings. In

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Speaker 1: recent years, the case has reignited and is now gaining

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Speaker 1: some degree of notoriety. But I guarantee you if you

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Speaker 1: ask even crime aficionados about the Doodler they won't be familiar.

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Speaker 1: What is the likelihood of any DNA? What was they

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Speaker 1: Doodler's so called type Alexis tres Chuck, What did his

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Speaker 1: victims look like? His victims were all white men, and

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Speaker 1: he the suspect that they have that they identified, that

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Speaker 1: they believe was a black man, and they all were

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Speaker 1: living in San Francisco at the time. They actually said

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Speaker 1: they thought that the suspect was living in the Bay Area,

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Speaker 1: but not San Francisco specifically, so there are other towns

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Speaker 1: around Berkeley and Oakland and other towns in the area,

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Speaker 1: but that they knew that he was, that they were

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Speaker 1: hanging out in gay bars, or that they met after

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Speaker 1: the bars that closed. There was maybe like a truck

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Speaker 1: stop or a diner, you know, where you would get

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Speaker 1: you know, coffee or drink afterwards, not drink, but max

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Speaker 1: and that's where he would meet them too. So they

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Speaker 1: all all the men were white, and the suspects they

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Speaker 1: were saying they believed was black. And they were not

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Speaker 1: all living secret gay lives. One of the victims was

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Speaker 1: a drag queen as I recall, and made no secret

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Speaker 1: of lifestyle. But the others I believe did live in

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Speaker 1: fear of being discovered to be gay. Um. Also, what

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Speaker 1: about DNA? Take a listen to our cut F six

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Speaker 1: once again Kevin Fagan. He is a host of the

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Speaker 1: Doodler podcast. There's some promising DNA in this case. That

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Speaker 1: has emerged. And that's uh, from what Dan has done

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Speaker 1: and when Mike and I have done. There's some promising

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Speaker 1: tips that have emerged from the podcast that I did,

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Speaker 1: which got you know, kind of went international, and so

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Speaker 1: we got a lot of phone calls, a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of leads coming in. Uh. That's you know,

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Speaker 1: stitching things together. Dan doesn't want to give it away

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Speaker 1: his hand too much, of course, because you know, if

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Speaker 1: you spill all the details, they're no good in court.

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Speaker 1: But there are it's it's it's looking it's looking good.

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Speaker 1: It's looking good. What about us R, I'm gonna call um,

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Speaker 1: what about the possibility of DNA? Oh, there's absolutely no

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Speaker 1: question about it. When you stab somebody eleven times, seventeen times,

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Speaker 1: at some point you're gonna have to hold onto them.

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Speaker 1: And so when you know that happens, there could easily

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Speaker 1: be DNA left behind with skin cells. When he beat

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Speaker 1: that person with a rock, we can now get DNA

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Speaker 1: off that rock if they you know, preserved it correctly. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's just no doubt about it. In one of the cases,

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Speaker 1: I think he hog tied someone again on that rope.

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Speaker 1: That could very easily inside those knots be DNA, no

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Speaker 1: question about it. Nancy, Yeah, jump in and this is

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Speaker 1: Matt Man. You know, you know, I think with the

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Speaker 1: interesting here is, you know, we're talking about murders that

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Speaker 1: they occurred nearly fifty years ago, and also an abrupt

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Speaker 1: stop in those murders. We know that the war and

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Speaker 1: Arews has now been discovered as a sixth victim. But

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Speaker 1: you know, it leads to wonder why the abrupt stop?

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Speaker 1: It was this offender in jail? Did he die? Did

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Speaker 1: he move? And I think when you listen to the investigator,

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Speaker 1: he talks about solving this crime, not necessarily making an arrest.

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Speaker 1: So they may be able to determine who this perpetrator was,

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Speaker 1: but they're not going to be able to make an

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Speaker 1: arrest because this person is no longer available. And I

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Speaker 1: think that that this investigation appears to be on the

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Speaker 1: track of solving a crime, not necessarily making an arrest.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Just Scott Morgan, remember the

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Speaker 1: Golden State killer D'Angelo. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

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Speaker 1: We were actually just talking about that in my class yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Caught later. Yeah he was, you know, yeah, yeah he was,

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Speaker 1: and he came to in eighty six. I think it

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Speaker 1: was he came to an abrupt stop. But going back

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Speaker 1: to what Mac had said relative to the biological evidence,

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Speaker 1: this is key, the fact that it's all depended upon

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Speaker 1: how evidence, the biological evidence was not just collected back

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Speaker 1: at that point in time, but how well it's been preserved.

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Speaker 1: Because DNA evidence or the sourcing for DNA evidence is

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Speaker 1: so very fragile, and so moving forward in time, how

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Speaker 1: how much care has been taken with this DNA. You know,

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Speaker 1: they solved they solved the Golden State case because of

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Speaker 1: the actions of a forensic pathologist back in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: because he had preserved a duplicate rape kit. And I

427
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: don't know that we're gonna have anything that robust here.

428
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: You know, Mac was talking about touch DNA and you know,

429
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: urcing from is he still alive to the DNA and

430
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: I agree with you on both points. Take a listen

431
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: to our cut two Sergio Quintana, NBC Bay Area. Forty

432
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: eight years ago today, police were called out to Ocean

433
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: Beach near Uloa and forty eighth Avenue for what would

434
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 1: turn out to be the first of the Doodler's victims.

435
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: Fifty year old Gerald Kavanaugh had been stabbed multiple times,

436
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: his body left on the beach. Over the next year

437
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: and a half, more victims turned up, all of them

438
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: gay Caucasian men. Most were stabbed to death. Longtime gay

439
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: rights advocate Cleave Jones says these murders rattled the community.

440
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 1: I remember being very conscious of it, and there were

441
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: all sorts of rumors and fear. Chronicle reporter Kevin Fagan says,

442
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: there is still a lot of public interest in this case.

443
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: The fact that someone got away with this many killings

444
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: all those years ago just gets under a lot of

445
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: people's saddled it's not right. Detectives believe the killer is

446
00:29:52,880 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: still alive. Time stories with Nancy Grace, Matthew and Gina

447
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining US former prosecutor and author Matthew

448
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: very often. I was saying earlier to Cheryl, you don't see,

449
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: for instance, rape victims come forward. They don't want the

450
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: information out there for whatever reason. In this case, even

451
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: more so, I believe there are more Doodler victims than

452
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: we know. Well, that's possible because we know that there

453
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: are six victims who have been killed, and there were

454
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: three who were able to get away from him. You know,

455
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: those three, although two of them at least cooperating, didn't

456
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: want to come forward in any way and testified at

457
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: this point. But that's it's not that this time has passed.

458
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: They may change their mind and be willing to be

459
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: more active, and this investigation were willing to testify. I

460
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: mean they think this up to seventeen, between seventeen to

461
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: twenty victims at this count, and this is how it happens.

462
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Christian Captain Kyve Fox

463
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: two in our cut twelve. In the early to mid

464
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, a killer roamed these streets, praying on gay men,

465
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: meeting them in bars, luring them away by offering to

466
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: sketch them, and then investigators at the time said stabbing

467
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: at least five and possibly as many as fourteen men

468
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: to death. The case making headlines in the city. I know,

469
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: the getting communities world away. These murders are going on.

470
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: But we're looking for primarily, I should say, are certain

471
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: who has been for someone who may have survived these

472
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: attacks and having come forward and reported. The newspapers at

473
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: the time documented his killing streak, his habit of drawing

474
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: his victims earned him the nickname the Doodler. At the time,

475
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: investigators said three men had escaped The Doodler. Police interviewed

476
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: the men and developed this sketch. Back then, investigators repeatedly

477
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: interviewed one man and said they were certain he was

478
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: their suspect, and that man still alive, tiring information what

479
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: about it? Alexis trusting joining us from crime Online. The

480
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: one guy that they identified as a suspect is still alive.

481
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: Alexis he is, And in fact, he was arrested back

482
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six. In January nineteen seventy six, So

483
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: there was a newspaper article about the crime. And then

484
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: a person was at a bar and saw a person

485
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: there who was doing sketches and they thought that it

486
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: matched the suspect sketch, so they called the police. When

487
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: the police got there, this man had a butcher knife

488
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: and a book of sketches. So they questioned him and

489
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: they it was kind of it. It fit like a

490
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: perfect profile. They're saying this man was gay, but he

491
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: struggled with admitting that he was a home actual and

492
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: that he had confessed he was ashamed of what he

493
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: was doing. He'd spoken to a psychiatrist about it, and

494
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: he was having difficulty, and so they believe that they

495
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: had him and that he was the suspect, but the

496
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: living the witnesses at the time just absolutely refused to

497
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: come forward and testify against him. Right now, we believe

498
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: that there are at least six up to seventeen two

499
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: twenty victims. Back to doctor Catherine Ramslin joining us, author

500
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: of How to Catch a Killer? How can we catch

501
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: the killer? Doctor? Nope, You're going to need some kind

502
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: of hard physical evidence. If you don't have witnesses willing

503
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: to come forward and talk about it, it will have

504
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: to be some kind of hard evidence like the DNA. Well,

505
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: she's right, what else can we dj Scott? I think

506
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: that it's significant to remember they talked about the knife

507
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: that this individual had in itself. And this is kind

508
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: of a long shot, but this guy stabbed multiple times.

509
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: He didn't just stab once or twice, So you're going

510
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: to have multiple injuries that perhaps if this I can't

511
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: imagine under any circumstances why would have retained it, but

512
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: he may have. If he still has this knife, that

513
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: might be a potential tie back as well. You know,

514
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: for me with this stabbings are very violent, not just

515
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: for the victim, but also for the perpetrator. There's a

516
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: chance that he could have commingled his blood with these

517
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: individuals as he was stabbing them. Also, if he kept

518
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: the sketches, jump in, if he kept the sketches, if

519
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: he actually was sketching people that he then ended up killing,

520
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: and he has those sketches that would tie him too,

521
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: that's so interesting that Catherine. I was just going to

522
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: comment about how serial killers at Authooge, Cheryl often keep

523
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: mementos like many people keep ticket stabs, they keep mementos

524
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: of their murder victims like a piece of jewelry, like

525
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: a driver's license. She's right, Cheryl McCollum, She's absolutely right. Now,

526
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,959
Speaker 1: I was going to make the point about Samuel Little.

527
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: He actually drawings for law enforcements of his victims. So

528
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,959
Speaker 1: if this person, this suspect did have a sketch boat,

529
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: there are other potential victims in that book. It could

530
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: be a money tree for law enforcement. Take a listen

531
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: to our friend Leanne Melendez ABC seven are seven twenty

532
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: seven year old Jay Stevens, who was found brutally stab

533
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 1: at Spreckles Lake in Golden Gate Park. If I could

534
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: ask you one or two questions. We found Jay's sister,

535
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: Melissa Stevens, who lives in the North Bay. The fact

536
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 1: that that people are even interested in it now means

537
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: working closer, because for years it went unnoticed. You know

538
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: a lot of families have been terribly damaged by this

539
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: Actress is. I know many of you are asking, how

540
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: the heck have I not heard of the Doodler? Well,

541
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: number one, you have to understand that in the seventies,

542
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: investigators were laser focused on other notorious cases such as

543
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: the Zodiac killer, the Zebra killings, and let's not forget

544
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 1: Patty Hurst. And number two, well, let's just say that

545
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: SFPD was not gay friendly and this community didn't trust police.

546
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: So how can that happen? Alexis to rest checked that quote,

547
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: more famous serial killers grabbed the headlines. Well, that's the

548
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: way it works in the new business, Like whatever one

549
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: is the most attractive, whatever is the sexiest crime at

550
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: the time, the one that people are reading about. So

551
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: if people come back and they want more and more information.

552
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: And the thing was to remember everybody said it was

553
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 1: the seventies. You know, there were still anti homosexual laws

554
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: on the book, So people were not getting this attention

555
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 1: because people maybe felt like these victims weren't as important

556
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: and they it was said at the time, people were saying,

557
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 1: you know, if these were white women that were killing

558
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: Pacific Heights, which is a very fancy area of San Francisco,

559
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: this would be getting so much more attention. But people

560
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: at the time felt like the victims were not getting

561
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: attention because they were gay men and that they were

562
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: looked down upon in society. You know, Cheryl McCollum who's

563
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: been working so hard on the Delphi murders, where cops

564
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: are now reaching out for anyone that contacted a particular

565
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: social media profile in this case, if you were to

566
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: reach out to people, what would be your request. Well,

567
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 1: it's being done right now with you and that podcast,

568
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: because there may very well be other victims that fought

569
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: him off and survived maybe one stab wound or two

570
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: that went to a hospital and never reported the law enforcement.

571
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: Number Two, if he's dead, the diplomat that's afraid, he

572
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: would no longer be fearful this person would come after

573
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: him anymore, so perhaps he would talk and give answers

574
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: that are so needed by law enforcement. With the reward

575
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: climbing now at two hundred thousand dollars. What else could

576
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: be done to Matthew Menino, high profile lawyer, former prosecutor.

577
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: What could be done to find other victim Well, I mean,

578
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: raising awareness obviously is one way. You know some really

579
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: I guess aggressive police work and gumshoe kind of work

580
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: where you look into other stabbings that might have occurred

581
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: at the time to try to attrack other victims who survived.

582
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: The other thing is if you have a person of

583
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: interest and you have information from witnesses, all be those

584
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: witnesses might be reluctant. You know, maybe you can get

585
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: a search warrant. Maybe you can go into this person

586
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: of interests home and look for these drawings or look

587
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: for other things that he might have retained from these

588
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: these homicides. So you might not have enough to file

589
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: criminal charges, but you might have enough probable cause based

590
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: on the statements of these survivors who are reluctant, to

591
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: get a search warrant to follow up on some of

592
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 1: these leads and other things that you've been told about

593
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: concerning this killer. To doctor Katherine Ramslin, why do serial

594
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: killers sometimes keep treasures or mementos of their victims. It's

595
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: just evidence. Well they want to relive it, keeps it

596
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: close to them, and it also gives them a sense

597
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: of dominance and power and ownership. I know the way

598
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: Dennis Rader talked about the projects which were his victims

599
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: as they now belong to him, and Ted Bundy said

600
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: the same thing, he owned them. And Gary Ridgeway said

601
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: the same thing. He didn't like it when a victim

602
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: was found because they belonged to him. If you have

603
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: or believe you have information regarding the Doodler, if you

604
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: think you have a relative, friend, acquaintance that was a

605
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: Doodler victim, call four one five, five, five three nine

606
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: two four or five repeat four one, five, five, five

607
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: three nine two four five. There is a two hundred

608
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: thousand dollars reward. Nancy Grace crime story signing off, Goodbye friend,