WEBVTT - NFT Fans Say 2023 Is Looking Up 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.360 I'm Stacy Murray Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:10.160 And this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg IHOD podcast. 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:29.160 It's Wednesday, March fifteen. I'm Annerera, Senior editor for Bloomberg News. 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:33.960 In for Stacy Murray Ishmael. Some might argue that the 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.760 popularity of NFTs faded as quickly as it rose as 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.639 a refresher. Non Fungible tokens, also known as NFTs, are 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.599 digital certificates of authenticity for anything from collectibles to art. 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.840 They're usually minted on the Etherean blockchain, but are now 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.680 also available on the Bitcoin chain. NFTs boomed in early 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.440 twenty twenty two, when the cryptomania was at fever pitch, 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.760 but a steep decline in sales and prices quickly followed. 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.040 As twenty twenty two crypto winter set in and digital 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.240 acid bankruptcy is piled up, culminating with the collapse of 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.480 FTX late last year. As we move through twenty twenty three, 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.200 though some crypto traders are cautiously optimistic, the price of 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.240 bitcoin has risen more than forty percent, and some investors 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.760 have even managed to make hefty profits selling their NFT investments. 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.520 Former bond traders Ovifarouk and Mike Anderson have become well 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.560 known for recently selling their iconic board apes for around 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.319 seventy eight eight, which translated to roughly nine point two 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.600 five million dollars at the time. That's a whopping seven 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:39.160 hundred percent profit. Board Apes are one of the most 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.600 popular NFT art collections. You may have seen them online before. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.080 They are essentially digital pictures of apes and varying outfits 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.320 and facial expressions. Joining me in the studio today to 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.240 discuss the ins and outs of trading NFTs or Bloomberg 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:57.440 reporter abinav Ramnarayan and Ovifarouk, co founder of Canary Labs. 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:09.240 Abby ov thanks so much for joining me today. It's 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.679 good to have two people in the flesh inside the 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.320 studio off and we do these like recorded from all 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.119 over the world, so it's quite nice. I can't really 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:22.440 see your faces properly because of the mics, but probably alright, 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.400 all right, so we're starting. You're gonna you know, it's 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.640 gonna be a fun episode because we already have some 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.800 humor from the beginning. So let's start over. Do you 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.240 want to maybe give our listeners an overview of what 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:37.280 sort of the board ape collection is, um, and why 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.360 you bought it and when you first got interested, and 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.720 then we can take further steps back to what you 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:44.519 were doing before. But just to set the scene for 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.560 people who may not have heard of them. Yeah, that's 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.560 a you know, and all these things that I've done, 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:51.400 and no one's ever asked me what are the board apes? 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.960 So um, it's nice to actually figure out how I'm 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.800 going to answer that question. But um, you know, in 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.880 this most basic phone that just ten thousand pictures of 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:04.840 randomly generated apes with different traits and stuff, and some 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.040 are rarer than others, some are more valuable than others 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.079 based on their rarity, And only one of those apes 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.400 has given you access to all these various things that 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.280 the Yuga Labs of the creators have done, whether it's 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:16.840 access to new drops, whether it's access the parties that 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:18.880 they have, whether it's access to some of the crypto 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.560 tokens they've dropped, and the original drop they did back 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.280 in April twenty twenty one that served as the access 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.800 parcel tokens to everything that they've done since then. So 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.760 when did you get interested and when did you buy 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:37.440 your first board ape. So I actually bought them when 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.640 they minted. That's when something mint and the n FT world, 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:42.600 it's the same thing as like you consider it as 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.920 an ICO or an IPO or whatever. So it's the 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.040 first time they were selling it. I actually was working 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:49.520 at Barkleys at the time in New York and I 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:51.880 just quit my job, so I was kind of like 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:53.640 feeling a bit emotional and stuff when I got home, 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.040 and I was already trading NFTs at this point, and 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.680 I basically just saw it on Twitter and thought it 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:03.280 looked interesting because the website was the first professionally done 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.520 the thing that I'd seen, And you know, I went 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.200 ahead and minted them, and I think they were about 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.080 two hundred dollars each at the time to actually buy, 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.920 and then how much were they when you sold them? 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:16.400 So there were two iterations of this. When the first 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.560 time I actually minted about one hundred and fifty of them, 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.880 and I sold them all within the space of about 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.920 a week, and I saw them anywhere between I think 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:26.680 there were about two hundred dollars to mint. I saw 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:31.640 them anywhere between about two thousand dollars to like up 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.520 to thirty thousand dollars each, I would say. So, taking 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.320 a step further back, you were mentioning your New York 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.600 days and you'd you'd quit your job. So what were 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.640 you doing before and why did you quit that job 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:45.800 to go into NFTs. Yeah. So I used to be 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:49.039 a trader. I used to trade hiled and distress credit 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:50.840 at Barclays. I did that for about ten years. I 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:55.680 spent six years in London and three years in New York, 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:00.240 and I enjoyed doing it. But look, in twenty twenty one, 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.400 I had this big every like many people had this 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.120 big view on inflation and the Fed not increasing interest rates, 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.000 and I couldn't express that in the book that I 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.479 was trading. I was like, well, none of this stuff 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:12.760 is going to get impacted in year one. So I 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.520 once to find a way to put that trade on. 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:16.080 I was like, oh, I'll just do it myself. I'll 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.360 just do it pa. And I've been cryptoskeptic for many, 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:20.880 many years, and that was the first year I bought 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.200 bitcoin in twenty twenty one after pacing it for so long, 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:27.040 and myself and my colleague Michael, we were looking at 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.839 potentially buying art or collectibles. These are very like inflacion 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.240 proof investments, and we just stumbled on NFTs, which isn't 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.800 too fair, as Michael that stummled on the first which 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.120 are basically collectibles on chain. So we had this like 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:41.960 crypt tournament to it, and we had the collectibles element 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.800 to it. So the way that we used to describe 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.760 it was its inflaition squared and it was obviously a 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:48.800 very risky trade, and but you know, we knew if 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:50.480 we took a shot as it and we were right, 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.320 the upside would be a lot bigger. So this brings 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:55.760 Abby and Abby you cover credit, right, Can you give 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:57.640 us an overview of the macro environment, what it was 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.200 at the time and how it's changed now, right, because 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.560 because it's a very different situation and a lot of 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:04.920 the narrative around bitcoin at the time, as you were saying, 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.960 is like it's a hedge against inflation, whereas now you know, 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:11.040 inflation has shut up and it's not really turned out 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.719 to be great for bitcoin or any other risky asset. Really, Yeah, no, absolutely. 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:17.640 I mean I think I did a little bit of 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.359 reporting on bitcoin when I was part of the FS 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.279 and Rates team in the past, so I had a 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:25.919 small flavor of what cryptocurrency was like. I mean I 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:27.960 was by no means the Crypto Report or anything. I 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:29.880 just did a little bit of work on it. What 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.479 I found really interesting was looking at all the various 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.120 factors that went into it. On the one side, I 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.080 did see the argument that it was an inflation hedge, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.279 that crypto was an inflation hedge. But on the other 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.000 on the other side of that, there was so much 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.160 irrational exuberance. I mean today you look at how SPACs 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.880 have completely collapsed. I mean the last few SPACs are 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.600 now being flogged for nothing. You look at a lot 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.680 of the IPOs at the time, they've gone down like 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.559 eighty percent, ninety percent. Did look at Peloton as a stock, 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:02.120 you know, I mean, there was a lot of the 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.680 rational exuberance, and um, there's no doubt in my mind 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.599 that crypto was very much a part of that. I've 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:09.720 pulled up a few correlations today. I had to look 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.880 at how HIGEL European high Eel bonds UM compared to ETHA, 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.960 which is I guess the closest comparable to NFTs that 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.120 we can get on the terminal, And there is a 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.960 little bit of a correlation UM, not a super strong correlation, 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.320 but the correlation to Tesla is quite striking as a stock, 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.080 and the correlation to Peloton is unbelievably striking. I mean, 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.920 it's almost taking the same trajectory that I'm talking about 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.600 et versus um um versus Peloton. So if you take 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:46.200 credit markets as I would say that cryptocurrency is a 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:51.000 souped up version of credit markets, and I would say 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.960 NFTs are sort of I mean, you call it inflation squad. 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.280 I would call it exuberance as well. Yeah, so, but 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.480 there is a code and that I find that interesting 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.240 and it actually makes me more hopeful for the future 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.520 of NFTs. Then then and then anything else I've seen 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:12.200 actually in terms of anything else you've seen, like crypto wiser, Well, 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:13.760 what I mean is there seems to be a method 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.120 to the madness. There seems to be some some logic 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.320 to why it's training. The Waird is O. I see 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.880 you're nodding there. Yeah, I mean, I think the big 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.880 thing that we touched upon was inflation. And it's actually 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.520 a common misconception that bitcoin is a good hedge for inflation. 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.880 That's incorrect in my view anyway. Bitcoin is a hedge 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.280 for inflation when you have a low interest rate environment, 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.280 and that was the environment Trains twenty one. The FED 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:40.440 refused to increase interest rates inflatition starts to go higher. 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.320 And that means like in this in this environment where 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:45.480 like money is cheap, if you like, everyone wants to 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:47.320 take the highest ris possible. And that's the environment that 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.280 we had. So twine Pains, We're all broke down because 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:52.640 we still had inflation. But the fab is like, we're like, 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:54.760 oh damn, like we have to increase interest rates now finally. 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.440 And then that hits NASDAK as you said, and all 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:59.960 the tech docs, and that has the highest correction to scrypt, 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.160 which then in turn has correlation to NFTs. But I 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.000 think NFT is an interesting hybrid asset class, Like on 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.559 the one hand, you have traditional market correlation, you have 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.160 cryptic correlation. But on the other hand, they are collectibles. 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.440 Like people go out there and buy things that they 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.719 want to own from an art perspective or from a 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.800 from a collecting standpoint, and you know, it's the same 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.920 thing when you see you might see a crazy auction 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.080 at Christie's for like a banana stuck to the wall 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.240 that goes for millions of dollars and people are like, 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:26.839 you know why, Like, I don't get understand where that 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.600 prices come from. NFTs definitely have that element of it 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.840 where you have institutions that are collecting, you have maybe 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.800 galleries that are collect and you have large collectors who 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.320 are collecting and their mindsets like I just want to 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.320 own the most expensive cryptopunk because I have the bragging 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:46.520 rights for it, and that's where some of these crazy 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.280 exuberant prices come from, if you like. But you know, 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.080 sometimes it just takes two people to tango in an 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:52.880 auction and that's where that's where you get it. And 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.560 that's where I think people have a misunderstanding of what 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.280 NFTs actually are versus when trying to compare them to 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.839 traditional assets. After the break, we'll hear more from Bloomberg's 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.360 Abena from Narayan an NFT investor Orvi Farouk on what 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:18.160 makes a good trader and the intersection of NFTs and AI. So, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:20.440 you know a lot of people lost money on crypto 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.880 this year and NFTs. How much has your experience as 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.640 a trader helps, Like would you suggest that someone who 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.960 doesn't have finance experience, dosn't have trading experience, quit their 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.720 job and start trading NFTs. I would say two things. 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:35.200 The first thing I would say is that we had 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.320 a massive, massive advantage having been institutional traders for seven 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.600 or eight years. Should retail traders be investing in this market? Well, 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:44.760 I have to say a lot of people who have 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:46.600 probably I'm sure they've lost a lot of money doing it. 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.160 But I've come across and met so many people who 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.080 have zero experience in trading, zero work experience at a bank. 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.120 A lot of them haven't even gone to university. Some 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.240 of them are probably seventeen to eighteen years old, and 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.400 they would make like three times more money than anyone 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.199 else on bulls on the City of London. Because trading 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.080 you don't need the education for it. You haven't. You 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.080 have to have a natural aptitude for knowing where the 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.600 momentum is going, understanding how to manage a risk, understand 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:12.520 how to have discipline. And that is a natural thing 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.320 that you can't um, you can't teach, you can't train that. 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.520 It's it's it really is a natural skill set. And honestly, 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.080 I've met so many people are like, wow, like you 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.200 should be if you went and spent a year trade 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:24.560 in high your bonds. You have made more money than 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.959 anyone else because you understand how to take risks, you 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.640 understand when to take profits. And those are two things 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.280 you don't need to go to university for. You don't 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.680 need a career in finance for. And so I would 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.520 say yes, like maybe retail investors should have more protection 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.479 and there should be you know, more regulation to to 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.160 help that. But should retail investors not trade NFTs, not 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:45.880 trade crypto? Absolutely not. You should give it a go, 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:47.520 and you never know you might be good at it 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:49.760 because it's a skill that you don't practice or learn 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.760 it in any other or many other facets of your life. 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:54.280 And I think you need to try it to know 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.880 if you're good or not. Basically, what are the biggest 0:11:57.920 --> 0:11:59.840 things that are like things that you watch out for 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.400 right Like this last year you could have lost money 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:07.400 on FTX, Block five, Gemini, like a number of places 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.679 that you know where your money could have been locked up. 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.640 So you know, how do you how do you manage 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:15.640 all these risks? It's not just a question of like, 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.679 you know, a trade downside, it's like you could lose 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:19.679 all your money, all your collateral, everything from one day 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:23.320 to the next. Yeah. Number one rule of any trading investing, 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.400 if you're doing it personally, is only invest or gamble 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.439 gamble with then I will use about gamble because there 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:31.559 is an element of that with money. I wanted to 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.920 say it before and you were describing the situation, but 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.080 I was like, oh, let's be nice, but you said it. 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.920 So go on with money that you can afford to lose. 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.480 So if you have your net worth and crypto, then 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.240 take nine percent of it out because or fifty percent 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:49.080 of it out because there is huge how risk in crypto, 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.520 and like FTX and block finding, all this stuff was 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.160 a big example of that where I know people who 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.680 were some of the best traders in crypto who lost 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.400 millions of dollars in the whole net worth and FTX 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:01.800 because of just like some blacks one event. And so 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.480 the number one rules, don't invest more than you can 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.760 afford to lose. Number two rule, which would have staged 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.400 you for FTX, And the golden rule of crypto is 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.120 not your keys, not your crypto. So and if you're 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.319 not self customing something, so by that I mean you 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.280 don't have it in your own wallet. Way you're the 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.200 only person who has access to it and has the 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.000 private keys to it, then it's a risk. And that's 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.200 the problem with FTX because if you have your crypto 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.640 one in exchange or if you're staking it, then you 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.559 don't have access to it like someone else has access 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:29.400 to it and controls your money. And this is the 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.480 whole original thesis of bitcoin anyway. So you know, with 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.200 those two things, you already eliminate something like eighty percent 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.160 of the risks, and then from then on it's like 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.800 learning by doing, you know, like remember the shady characters 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:41.320 who told you to buy something and it went down, 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.480 Like remember that time you got greedy and didn't take 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.200 profits and you should have sold half of what you 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.800 have set yourself rules, guidelines and stick to them and 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.280 strip the emotion out of it. Those things. You I 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:53.959 really think you can eminate a lot of risks by 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.120 doing that, and most people just don't take these these steps. 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.800 I would say, So, where do you see now opportunities 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:03.080 with with NFT is that you know what's interesting? Right? 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:04.760 Because the names we keep hearing are the ones that 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.160 we're around during the rally. Is there anything new that's 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.520 like interesting or anything you know, funner like even not 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.360 from like an investing perspective, but like an art perspective, 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.719 you're an art you're you're also an artist, right, that's right. Yeah, 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.600 there's this idea of the digital Renaissance, which I know 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.080 sounds really funny but cheesy. Yeah, a bit cheesy, I 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.440 know I might love to use anyway. But if you 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.920 think about the world and where it's going, and you 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.160 know this whole concept of AI and chat GPT, and 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.080 you had this segment of art which is generated by code, 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:36.840 whether it's AI art or generative art, and it's all stored. 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:38.400 A lot of it is stored on chain or is 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.960 generated on chain, And like intellectually, I think that's very interesting, 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.520 and it's actually used to create and produce arts. And 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.160 if you think about art as in the history of 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.120 art overalls spans thousands of years, and you have different 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.320 periods like the Renaissance, et cetera, where you could collect 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.840 early pieces and generative art is not a new thing, 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:57.520 but genest of art on chain is a relative a 0:14:57.520 --> 0:14:59.640 new thing, and there's probably only existed for three or 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.440 four year So I think it's a great, big opportunity 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.480 to actually collect what will become pieces of history because 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.240 it's new, you've never really had it before, and NFTs 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.280 only really started in what twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, So 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.120 you're at like you're five years into what could potentially 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:18.000 be decades or even centuries of this idea of art 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.600 on chain and art generated by code. And I think 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.720 this whole AI buzz thing is going to keep getting 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.520 bigger and bigger and bigger, and it will be in 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.920 many elements of our lives. And um it's application to art, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:30.480 I think it is very very interesting and presents a 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:35.720 big art made by computers basically, and then and then 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.480 it's the NFT of that of that art made by computers, 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:44.320 essentially art made by code, and um it's then they're 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.680 made as NFTs. But you know, if you if you 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.520 want to get really geeky and nerdy about it, there 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.000 there are more aspects of it, like like something that's 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.280 provably random is the art doesn't exist, the code exists, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.080 and when you go to actually mint your piece, um, 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:58.480 you don't know what it's going to be until it's 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.880 created and it's minted, and it still looks good because 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:02.440 of the way that the code was written. So and 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.240 you're sure no one came up of it, came up 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.400 with it like in the last month when all the 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.440 AI stocks were going up, and like, let's find out 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.480 find a way to show something new, right like they 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.320 were thinking about it before. It's got a narrative to fit, 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.680 to fit the selling need. Generative art has been around, no, okay, 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.240 around for a while, and I think the best things 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.480 are things that are high value, that have been high 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.440 value for at least two it three years. But um no, 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.840 this is this is not me, This is not I'm 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.160 using Bloomberg as my exit liquidity thing. Good. I'll be 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.760 right back with Bloomberg reporter Abina Ramnarayan and bond trader 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.720 turned NFT founder of I Farouq as we discussed the 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:42.920 future of NFTs and what it's like to have snoop 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:54.240 dog by your digital art. So what about sort of 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.480 the macro environment right like, because if you we look ahead, 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.400 you know it's we've had crypt so downturns before, we 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.200 said many times, but you know the macro environment was 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.399 kind of the same throughout and the reasons why I 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.639 crashed or like crypto specific, what's the outlook now for 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.600 like the world you're you're like broadening out sort of 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.640 person um. I mean, it's very hard to be definitive 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.680 about it, but I would say that crypto probably has 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.080 another sell off in it. Um yeah, sorry, I don't 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.760 I'm not if I'm not sort of agreeing with on this, 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.439 but I mean, essentially, we've seen a little bit of 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.800 recovery in most risky assets. So once again, this we've 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.520 talked about this correlation between m NFTs and crypto and 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.800 the credit market and all of these assets. What they 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.639 have in common is that they're risky and that investors 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.240 take risk when they buy them. And we've seen risky 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.920 assets in general rally quite a bit at the stud 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.800 in the first couple of months of this year, and 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:59.680 I'm not sure that the rationale for that rally is 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.680 completely solid. So I think there could be another painful 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.200 sell off in risk in general, and I would imagine 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.600 that crypto is a part of that. So I do 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.160 think the immediate future is uncertain, very uncertain. The long 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.919 term future, I mean, once again, I'm a little bit 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.399 encouraged by the fact that it has behaved like a 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.600 risk asset, and it's not just behaved in some kind 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.639 of completely random manner. So I suspect this here to stay. 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.720 One of the reasons why CRYPTO and nft is rallied 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.040 quite strongly in the last couple of years is that 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.200 a lot of capital was available. There was stimulus checks 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.440 in the US, there was a lot of leverage available. 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.639 People are able to take on debt to buy things. 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.280 All of that has gone. So whether or not this 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.439 is gonna if it's ever going to go back to 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.000 the heady heights of twenty twenty one or twenty twenty personally, 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.480 I don't think so. But I'm but I'm putting myself 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.840 on record here and so maybe I'll be proving horribly 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.320 wrong and all vocation. Fortunately we're not traders here, right, 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.679 We're not the traders, so like it's fine, we're not 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:04.919 We're not. Actually, have you could just say what you 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.159 what you see? Is there anything that you miss about 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.280 bond trading? Yeah? I have you actually asked me that 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.160 as I walked in, and um, it's been a while 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:15.480 since I've been to the city and I got the 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.320 tube and everything, so I was like kind of having 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.720 flashbacks of of getting to go into the office. But um, 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.480 I think though, I think the answer is yes, Like 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:25.919 when you're on this side of the fence where you 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.879 know I'm just sitting there making my wrist decisions, and um, 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.520 you know, on days with the markets down, I'm just like, oh, 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.080 that kind of stucks, but there's nothing that I can 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.520 really do to act on it. I miss it because 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.000 when you're on the trading floor and you're trading pile 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.680 bonds or distress bonds or CDs and there's like five 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:45.280 percent swings and stocks and you know, like twenty thirty 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.240 forty points swings and bonds, and you're there as a 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.520 market maker and someone's calling you and it's like, hey, like, 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:50.680 I need a price in this, and I need a 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:52.000 price right now, and you have to kind of think 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.840 on the spot, and it has this thrill and excitement 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.800 that you don't get in the world that I'm in 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.600