1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: And I would go to this climbing gym and boulder 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: and get punch passes, and I'd stand there with my 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: harness in my hand, waiting on a Friday night because 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: that's what the corkboard said. 5 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: You know. 6 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: And no one showed up, you know. And I stood 7 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: there a lot of Friday nights like, oh, well maybe tonight, 8 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: maybe tonight. 9 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 2: And. 10 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: It was but I, in my heart, I kind of 11 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: knew that there was a desire there. I felt like 12 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: it had to click for folks. And sure enough, one night, 13 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: this guy Barry walked in and he looked around. He's like, 14 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: does anybody else she got to show up? And I 15 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: was like, oh, maybe later, you know. And so he 16 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: just started climb over here. 17 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 3: Oh you're the first in four weeks, but they got 18 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 3: you're here. Yeah. 19 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 20 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: So we started climbing and then there were two or 21 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: three folks, and that first year, they're about seventy folks 22 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: that came to Phoenix. 23 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 3: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Portney, 24 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 3: normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur, 25 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 3: and I've been a football coach in Inner City Memphis. 26 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 3: And the last part, well, we accidentally ended up with 27 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 3: an oscar for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated. 28 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 3: I believe our country's problems will never be solved by 29 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 3: a bunch of fancy people and nice suits talking big 30 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 3: words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather 31 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 3: an army of normal folks, us, just you and me 32 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 3: saying you know what I can help. That's what Scott Strode, 33 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 3: the voice we just heard, has done. From the humble 34 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 3: beginnings of Only Scott and Barry, the Phoenix expects to 35 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 3: serve more than four hundred thousand people this year. Their 36 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 3: movement leverages the power of community, fitness, and other meaningful 37 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 3: activities to change how society approaches addiction and recovery. And guys, 38 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 3: it's working. I cannot wait for you to meet Scott 39 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 3: right after these brief messages from our sponsors, Scott Strode, 40 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 3: bro thanks for joining us. 41 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me. 42 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 3: I've read a lot of your story, and I've watched 43 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 3: Ted Talk and I've been looking forward to talking to you. 44 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: You and I have a lot of similarities in our life, 45 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 3: and the things you've done I find pretty amazing. So 46 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: let's let's introduce her audience to Scott the kid we 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 3: grew up, how you grew up and who you are? 48 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 49 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: So I grew up in Pennsylvania in a town called 50 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: Lancaster's outside of Philly, about an hour and forty five 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: minutes or so, and it was sort of rural, you know, 52 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania farmland. And my mom and my dad divorced pretty early, 53 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: so kind of split my time between my mom, who 54 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: was a single working mom, and my dad, who had 55 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: a farm in even more rural Pennsylvania. 56 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: And you know, I. 57 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: Had a pretty dynamic childhood. You know, I share this 58 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: because it's really part of who I became. But you know, 59 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: my dad had untreated mental health struggles, and so it 60 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: was always trying to figure out who he was, you know, 61 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: who he was going to be when we spent time 62 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: with him. And then when my mom remarried, it sort 63 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: of brought alcoholism into our family. So you know, in 64 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: one home I was kind of navigating that alcoholic dynamic, 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: and then in the other home, I was navigating the 66 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: mental health stuff. 67 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 3: And as a kid, your mom was your mom struggling 68 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 3: with alcoholism or your stepdad my stepdad. 69 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then his family more broadly, we're pretty heavy drinkers. 70 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 3: So your father was a farmer. 71 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: He didn't have a working farm, but he lived on 72 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: an old farm and was renovating an old farmhouse. He 73 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: had goats and stuff like that, but it was he 74 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: was a contractor at the time, so he was doing 75 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: work on other people's homes. 76 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: What was the nature of his minililis? 77 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: You know, we've never really were able to figure that out. 78 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: You know, My guess is it was untreated bipolar. 79 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: But then I think of it. 80 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: It's sort of like as that deteriorates over time and 81 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: with age. You know, there was this pretty powerful like 82 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: narcissistic element too, and then I think he had some 83 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: some sort of disconnects from like kind of cognitive distortions 84 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: at some point, you know, where he really wasn't the 85 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: way he saw the world, really wasn't how the world 86 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: was around him, and and that ultimately led to him 87 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: experience and homelessness. 88 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,679 Speaker 2: For the bulk of the later part of his life. 89 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: And we tried to support him around that and help 90 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: him out of that. But you know, we realized by 91 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: the time we were like eight or nine, we were 92 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: kind of helping to parent him instead of him parenting us. 93 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: And that created a pretty pretty tough childhood. 94 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 3: When you were it sounds like your mom and dad 95 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 3: had a joint custody because it sounds like you were 96 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: back and forth. Was your mom aware of that? 97 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: She was, but it was sort of a different time, 98 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: like it was. It was just on the end of. 99 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: That sort of culture where like kind of women were 100 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: seen as the failure of the marriage. Even if you know, 101 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: it was like there was still this little bit of 102 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: a like misogynistic culture, and her trying to get full 103 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: custody of us in the court system was pretty pretty tough. 104 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until my brother hit eighteen and the 105 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: judge actually said, what do you want to do? When 106 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: my brother chose not to want to go visit my 107 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: dad anymore, that then the judge kind of gave us 108 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: that choice too, and that was sort of our reprieve 109 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: from those those weekends with him where we were, you know, 110 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: pretty much we kind of joke that we grew up feral, 111 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: but we kind of did, you know, we were just 112 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: like running around a farm pretty much unattended most of 113 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: the time, out in the woods, playing and swimming across ponds, 114 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: and you know, it sounds pretty idealistic, you know of 115 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: like you know, in this rural setting. But truth is, 116 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: we we probably should have been cared for more and 117 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: didn't really always know what we're going to have for meals, 118 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: and you know, he would He decided to renovate the house, 119 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: and he tore out a wall and never really put 120 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: it back because it was kind of in a manic phase. 121 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: So we had one wall that was just plastic that 122 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: was like tacked up around it, and you know, he 123 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: did the house with a wood stove. I don't think 124 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: we had running water. I know we had an outhouse 125 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: for the bulk of our time there, but it was like, 126 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: you know, it was a pretty sort of impoverished setting. 127 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: And then with my mom, it was kind of a 128 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: different dynamic. She was working, had a job, had a 129 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: place for us, had some financial opportunity, and so we've 130 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: kind of lived in two worlds. 131 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 3: So I've got to believe I'm trying to put myself 132 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: in the shoes of an eight year old. I mean, honestly, 133 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 3: in the deepest recesses of your mind, that had to 134 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: be frightening and at the very least you couldn't have 135 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 3: felt completely safe ever with your father. 136 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I honed my skill at being able 137 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: to read subtle social cues so that I knew how 138 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: to show up to best keep him calm, you know, 139 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: and that that was something you you know, we started learning. 140 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: My guess is I probably learned it before I even remember, 141 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: But I remember really thoughtfully trying to figure out is 142 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: this a time where I talk? Is this a time 143 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: where I listen? Is this a time where I, you know, leave, 144 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: or a time where I stay. You know, you never 145 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: really if he was in a good space or a 146 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: bad space, or if he was manic, or if he 147 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: was depressed or and you know, he would he would 148 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: get fairly emotionally abusive, you know, very demeaning and you know, 149 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: kind of blaming. And when you're a little kid like that, 150 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: you just you soak that up. Because your world's so 151 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: contained to what you know that you actually think you're 152 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: the problem. You start to you start to believe that narrative. 153 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: And you know, that's no surprise. When I first tried 154 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: booze and drugs, it made that go away. 155 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 3: Scott. I. I'm the son of a five times divorced 156 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 3: mother whose father left when he was when I was four, 157 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 3: I can remember at fourteen or fifteen, looking in the 158 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 3: mirror and wondering what was so broken about me that 159 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 3: no man found me worthy of sticking around and investing in. 160 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 3: Because not only divorces, there were boyfriends that were kind 161 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 3: of long term that I started feeling comfortable with and 162 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 3: developing relationship with that then we're gone, And at some 163 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: point in a kid's ethos, when your parents are supposed 164 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 3: to be the safest place in the world, when they're 165 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 3: the opposite of that, you really do start to wonder 166 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: what have I done? And so I can absolutely identify 167 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 3: with what you're saying when after you've been if you've 168 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 3: been through that, you do start to wonder what's broken 169 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 3: in you? And maybe the dad's right and candidly, that 170 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 3: is both abuse and trauma. 171 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, I think you framed it up perfectly. And 172 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: what I think now looking back, you know, is that 173 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: that that sort of those the tinting of the lens 174 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: that I was forming with which I see the world 175 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: through was so subtle. You know, those elements were subtle 176 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: at that young age, but that tint was always there. 177 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: So even as I went into my adolescence, I always 178 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: had that those self esteem wounds I was still trying 179 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: to manage as I tried to form nurturing relationships with others. 180 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: That was still present as I tried to find my 181 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: identity and self worth. That was the lens I saw 182 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: the world through. And until I realized I had to 183 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: shatter that thing and see things clearly for the first time, 184 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: it was it was a tough road. 185 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 3: How do fifty one fifty five? That lens didn't shatter 186 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: for me until about eight years ago. And I say 187 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 3: that because I I want our listeners to understand that 188 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 3: these kind of things that happened to children are deeply 189 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 3: concreted in a person's psyche, and it takes Many don't 190 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 3: get over it, but those who somehow manage a way 191 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: to get over it, it does take often years and decades, 192 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: and it carries itself into your own marriages and relationships 193 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 3: with your own children and your spouses and those you're 194 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 3: close to. And I think I hear you saying that 195 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 3: was the case for you. 196 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I was in a similar sort of 197 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: timeframe as you. You know that it took me I 198 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: could sort of start to manage that out of a 199 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: lot of pieces of my life and those experiences were 200 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: kind of the foundation of the nonprofit i'd later build. 201 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: But that core, that like deepest core of that pain 202 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: was there until relatively recently, you know. And it took 203 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: me doing some deeper sort of trauma work to really 204 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: understand that that was within me. And no surprise why 205 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: this is so broadly experienced, right, because then we carry 206 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: it into the next generation and we hand it down. 207 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 3: You know. 208 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: There's a quote that's pain has passed from generation to 209 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: generation until somebody is willing to feel it. And that 210 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: just really speaks to me because you know, my dad's 211 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: dad left him when he was six, right. 212 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 3: I was just about to ask you or about to say, 213 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 3: I'll bet your father experienced some of the same things. 214 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: And was probably just doing the best he could, you know, 215 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: like he was. He probably disentangled a lot of that 216 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: pain before it got to us, you know, and protected 217 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: us from some of it. 218 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: But some of it he didn't. 219 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: He didn't have the skills or the tools or understanding 220 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: to be able to and and you know, I'm a 221 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: dad now, you know, later in life, and and I 222 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: think about that a lot, like you know, my my 223 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: son asked me the other day, what angry means, you know, 224 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: and the fact that he does he doesn't know that 225 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: from lived experience is a blessing. 226 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I sure did. 227 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: I would have asked him he got about a month, 228 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 3: because it's going to take that long for me to tangle. 229 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: So that's dad. Yeah, Mom sounds like she's trying and 230 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: working hard but has made a poor choice or you 231 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 3: got that. Those are my words for something. Men that 232 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: I grew up with. And was he also abusive? 233 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: He wasn't. He was. 234 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: It was more on both of them were more on 235 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: the like emotional side, like yeah, that's what I mean. 236 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 237 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: He had more of that like. 238 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: Excellence, like you need to be here, you need to 239 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: aspire to this, be this like excellent person. And but 240 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: he'd say that after you know, eight martinis, and I 241 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: was like. 242 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: Is that excellent? You know, like yeah, yeah so. But 243 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 2: but the truth is the same thing. 244 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: Now I'm in my adolescence, I'm like trying to really 245 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: find my identity and and it just felt like I 246 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 1: kept getting ground down by this, like you know, I 247 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: should know better, I should do better, I should achieve better. 248 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: I should you know, be at this place of excellence 249 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: and and and of course we're all like, you know, 250 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: there's this woman PM Melody who talks a lot about 251 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: early childhood trauma. Said, we're all perfectly imperfect and that's 252 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: the truth, even about my stepdad and my dad, and 253 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, all of us have those good parts of 254 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: us and those tough parts of us. But at the 255 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: time I thought I was failing consistently because I couldn't 256 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: achieve this sort of high bar. 257 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 3: And so you carry I carry people carry that that 258 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 3: have this kind of stuff going on in their childhood 259 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 3: and adolescence. And regardless of what facade you put on, 260 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: this stuff is bounce around inside your heart, your head, 261 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 3: your soul, your thoughts about yourself, and coping with that 262 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 3: in adolescence is often very, very difficult. And you turned alcohol. Yeah, 263 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 3: and now a few messages from our general sponsors. But 264 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: first I hope you'll consider becoming a Premium member of 265 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 3: the Army at Normalfolks dot us. By becoming one for 266 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: ten bucks a month or one thousand dollars a year, 267 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 3: you can get access to cool benefits like bonus episodes, 268 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 3: a yearly group call, and even a one on one 269 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 3: call with me. Frankly, guys, Premium memberships also help us 270 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: to grow this army that our country desperately needs right now. 271 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: So I hope you'll think about it. We'll be right back. 272 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: I had my first drink when I was eleven, a beer. 273 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: My cousins gave it to me, and I think I 274 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: think they thought it would like deter me from drinking 275 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: it so bad. 276 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 3: It was like a Yeah, a friend of mine's dad 277 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: caught him dipping Copenhagen and he took him outside and 278 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: made him put the entire can in his mouth, and 279 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: of course he vomited because it was just so that 280 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: was one of those. 281 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was one of those. 282 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: And then we were like water skiing on the chesapeak 283 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: or something and my cousin's boat, and they thought it 284 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: would be funny if I had this beer and it 285 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: would like turn me away from it. And finally one 286 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: of the wiser cousins dumped it over the. 287 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: Side and got me out of it, you know. 288 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: But but it wasn't until I went back and spent 289 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: time with my friends and they they asked me about it, 290 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: and they were like dis mesmerized by the story. They're like, 291 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: you had a beer, Oh my gosh, And all of 292 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: a sudden I was like, oh, these people are interested 293 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: in me, Like these people, you know, like they're talking 294 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: to me. I'm like, I feel lifted, you know, this, 295 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: this is what I've been looking. 296 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 3: For, is like the one thing you weren't getting at home. Yep, 297 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 3: you got there. You've got a positive reinforcement on a 298 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 3: very negative thing. 299 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: And then I realized, like, hey, there's a whole liquor 300 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: closet at my house, like because the cabinet's too small, 301 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: so I can, I can? I bet I could pull 302 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: a handle of vodka of there and no one whatever notice, 303 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: you know. And that was it. It just kind of 304 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: I was kind of off and running. 305 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 3: So you're telling me you were drinking at twelve, thirteen, 306 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 3: fourteen being cool all that. 307 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was uh. 308 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's not uncommon for folks who 309 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: struggled with substance, you used to say, where the first 310 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: time they had that, they just felt at peace or 311 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: at ease. 312 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 3: You know. 313 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: And and for me, it was that combined with people 314 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: wanting to be around me and and sort of wanting 315 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: to share time with. 316 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 2: Me, and and. 317 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: I felt like it was caring about me and loving me, 318 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: but it's really they just wanted to party with me. 319 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 2: But that was good with that, you know. 320 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: You know, it's funny, that's not very dissimilar from the 321 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 3: many people I've interviewed who got into gangs at thirteen 322 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 3: and fourteen. It was the same. I thought people were 323 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 3: loving me and everything else. But it's the same thing 324 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 3: seeking having holes in a part of your psyche and 325 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: your soul that are filled. They're positively reinforced by negative things. 326 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 3: And it sounds like it's not much different. Alcohol. Was 327 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: that for you? Gangs? Maybe that for kids from the 328 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 3: hood whatever, all stemming frankly from childhood trauma. 329 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: Really yeah, yeah, yeah? 330 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: And if you I mean imagine that group of kids 331 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: I was hanging out with, their stories were probably similar, 332 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: and they what brought them together around this thing with 333 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: me was probably a similar desire for connection. 334 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: And I think, you know, and. 335 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: You could you could tell a story, you know, about 336 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: somebody getting involved in gang life that could sound very 337 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: much like somebody seeking safety, and then it turn turns 338 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: into something that is much more destructive. 339 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 2: And that's how my addiction was. 340 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 3: So alcohol was a gateway too, I guess was it 341 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 3: weed first? I mean, yeah, it was pretty mud. I 342 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 3: don't want to generalize your story, but typically it's alcohol, weed, 343 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 3: maybe elude or something, and then ultimately cocaine or heroin. 344 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 3: I mean that is almost the story verbatim I've heard 345 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: one hundred times. 346 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it was very similar. You know, I 347 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: could I could. I knew where the booze was, I 348 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: could steal it. I'd have the cool parties. Then I was, 349 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, as my adolescence progressed, I was still struggling 350 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: with the mental health stuff and depression and self worth stuff, 351 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: and and through getting some mental health support, I met 352 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: somebody who sold weed, and and one day I was 353 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: buying weed from her and. 354 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 2: I was like, what's that. She's like, hey, it's coke. 355 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 3: You know. 356 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: We're going to try a little bit. And I tried it, 357 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: same thing as the first beer. I told my buddies. 358 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: They're like, no way, you did that. You tried it? 359 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: What was it like? 360 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: And I was like, I bet I can get some, 361 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, And and then you know, I was sort 362 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: of it. It turned into a hole a whole sort 363 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: of another level. I think like addiction has these like 364 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: trap doors that you feel like it's you're you're sort 365 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: of on a more normal trajectory. And then you fall 366 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: through one of those and it's like a whole another 367 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: layer that you dropped into. 368 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 3: When you were sober and straight, and you look shelf 369 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 3: in the mirror. What were you seeing then? 370 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: You know, like I was when I got into recovery, 371 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: I found my way into a boxing gym and and 372 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: some guys in Boston. You know, a friend of mine 373 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: was a Golden Gloves fighter and she's like, coach y, 374 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: I'll teach you about the sport. And I got into 375 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: that boxing gym. This is like, you know, at twenty 376 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: four now. And as I started to hit the bag 377 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: and like learn about the sport and build some technique, 378 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: I started to feel this self confidence that I didn't 379 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: have before. And then somebody, you know, I had this 380 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: opportunity to try climbing for the first time, and and 381 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: getting to the top of the climb started to build 382 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: that self esteem. And there were some other sober guys 383 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: in that boxing gym and I started to build a 384 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: little fellowship and it started to just crack open enough 385 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: light into this understanding that like how I viewed myself 386 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: all these years was was lies right, Like it wasn't. 387 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: I did have this innate strength and this innate value 388 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: and I could achieve these things. I put my mind 389 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: towards and and and then. 390 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 2: I got hungry for that. 391 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: I got hungry for that feeling and wanted to keep 392 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: chasing that instead instead of the drinking and the drugging. 393 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 3: Do you feel like do you feel like you made 394 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 3: a choice? 395 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? 396 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: I think I made a choice, like I I think 397 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 1: when we talk about addiction, we often talk about like 398 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: somebody's got to hit bottom before they change their path. 399 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: I don't really see it that way. 400 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: I think for a lot of us, hitting bottom might 401 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: just be the true bottom, right the end of our life, 402 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: or it's over, you know, that kind of thing. I 403 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: think that we have these little windows where we have 404 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: a moment of perspective on our life. 405 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 3: And that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, mirror, That's what 406 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 3: I'm asking yep. 407 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: And it was that it was like you realize that, 408 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: like your dreams of who you thought you could be 409 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: had been stripped away, sometimes in this very like insidious 410 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: way that you didn't realize it was happening. And I 411 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: just found some things that started giving me some of 412 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: those dreams back, and I wanted to do that stuff more, 413 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: and I want to do that more than what I 414 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: used to do. And I realized that people around me 415 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: actually cared about me in that in this new world, 416 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: and that a lot of my buddies from the old 417 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: one just wanted to go drink and get high. 418 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: I we jumped ahead a little. There's a there's a 419 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 3: part of the story. I think it's important for people 420 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 3: to know before they understand so much about you. That 421 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 3: really makes what you do now incredible is somewhere along 422 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 3: the line in there, before you started the ice climbing, 423 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 3: your mom knew you were in trouble. And I don't 424 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 3: really understand it. I'd like you to kind of tell 425 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 3: me how it worked. But and you ended up mess 426 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 3: around on boats or something. I don't know what. Yeah, 427 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 3: build in the blanks for me on that. 428 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 429 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: So you know when my mom was I think, trying 430 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: to get me out of the environment I was in, 431 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: and I. 432 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 3: She recognized it, she saw you were in trouble. 433 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And and she was seeking any opportunity, you know, 434 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: and I I I'm dyslexic. I'm horribly dyslexic. And in 435 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: those days prior to that, there really weren't a lot 436 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: of resources for kids with learning disabilities, and there was 437 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: a program for kids with dyslexia, and so we went 438 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: and interviewed. It was a boarding school in Massachusetts, and 439 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: I went up to interview and they mentioned this boat 440 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: program that was like a semester at sea, and I 441 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: was like, well, that sounds cool, you know. I was like, 442 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: that sounds way better than what I'm doing in Pennsylvania, 443 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: you know. 444 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 3: And and. 445 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: But somewhere in my heart, I think I knew I 446 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: knew I had to change. I was afraid of the 447 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: path I was on. And my mom and I talked 448 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: on the train on the way home, and I decided 449 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: to go on this program. And I think it's exactly 450 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: what I needed. 451 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 2: You know. 452 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: There's something about nature has this like this very clear 453 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: cause and effect, and like I would always suld have 454 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: shared that. The captain would say, hey, be careful going 455 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: forward in the storm, and I'd be like whatever with 456 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: my mohawk and my don't tread on me like leather jacket, 457 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, and and uh, what you're dealing with? 458 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, you had mohaul. Yeah, now it's 459 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: now it's more like this way mohawk. 460 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 3: But yeah, I get it. But it seems from a 461 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 3: breakfast club. 462 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, that was it. 463 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: But but then a wave would like crush you on 464 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: the deck of the ship and you'd be like, maybe 465 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: he's onto something, you know, maybe the captain. 466 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 3: And captain knows what he's talking about it. 467 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you started feeling this like sense of community 468 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: with your crew, like you had to you had to 469 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: work together. And when you when you let somebody down there, 470 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't just you, like with your self fulfilling prophecy 471 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: about your own sort of self worth. It's all this 472 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: internal sort of monologue. You you were actually letting down 473 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: a team that cared about you and needed you. And 474 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: then so you find yourself showing up in a different way. 475 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: And and I didn't realize it the time, but the 476 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: foundation that I learned on the ship was really the 477 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: elements and the principles of what would become the nonprofit later. 478 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. How do you end up in Boulder? 479 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: Yeah? 480 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so in kind of a roundabout way, Like so 481 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: when I got got into recovery, got in the boxing gym, 482 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: found this brochure about climbing, and signed up for this 483 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: climbing class and really changed my life. You know, by 484 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: getting to the top of that climb and then jumped 485 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: into that stuff with both feet and eventually was able 486 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: to quit drinking and using. And I would just like 487 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: wait outside the boxing gym with my gym bag with 488 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: a couple other guys that were as dedicated, and the 489 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 1: door would open and we'd go in and stay there 490 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: till they'd kick us out, you know. And that became 491 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: my early recovery. And between that and going up climbing 492 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: in the White Mountains in New Hampshire, you know, I 493 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: was just all in on that stuff and at this 494 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: point was in recovery. 495 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 2: And fell in love. 496 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 3: This is almost a self recovery, Scott. It doesn't sound 497 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 3: like you're you're just finding ways to change your own 498 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 3: life at this point, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm asking, 499 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 3: is that right? No? 500 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: That is right, And you know I didn't have the 501 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: awareness at the time, but but I was still chasing 502 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 1: that self worth like I had to. I started climbing. 503 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: Then I had to climb harder climbs, you know. I 504 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: started doing triathlon. Then I had to do Iron Man, 505 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, like I had to. Everything had to get 506 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: always level up or else I didn't feel like I 507 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: was proving to myself that I that I had intrinsic strength. 508 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 3: Actually, I believe you're overcoming voices that were still in 509 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 3: your head from when you were eight years old. Yeah. 510 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, you you'd cross a finish line at an iron 511 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: man and say, man, I should have done better in 512 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: the bike. 513 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 2: I could have been faster in the swim. 514 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: I was like, like you, just never I never stopped 515 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: to celebrate anything I accomplished because I felt like I 516 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: still messed it up, you know. And and it was 517 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: those that that internal monologue. But but those activities drew 518 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: me out to Colorado and ultimately to Boulder, where the 519 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: Phoenix was born. 520 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 3: So I've read or Herd or something something. I thought 521 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 3: it was pretty funny. You, uh, you decided this outdoors 522 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 3: thing was kind of cool, and you decided, Hey, I'm 523 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 3: going to be an outdoorsy guy. And you show up 524 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 3: to like a I don't know, right, some kind of place. Oh, yeah, 525 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 3: I got a place, and and and you say, hey, 526 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 3: I've decided I'm gonna be out doorsy. Why don't you 527 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 3: tell me what I need? Yeah, he's right, And at 528 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 3: the time that's actually sober that day. 529 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: But the guy kind of looked at me and he 530 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: was like, I guess you need a dor text jacket, 531 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, And actually it was great advice, you know, 532 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: that was like probably the best thing to start with. 533 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 3: And the guys that work at out doorsy place or 534 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 3: kind of granola anyway, so I can kind of see 535 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 3: him looking at you, going, uh a coat. 536 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: Coat, yeah, exactly, loves maybe the quit smoking. 537 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 3: Is that what you need? You know, like, but but 538 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 3: a boat a bag for your I don't know, right, yeah, but. 539 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: That you know, I was walking out with my new 540 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: gore Tex jacket and that's where I saw that it 541 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: was actually ice climbing. 542 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 3: Brochure, and really you saw it there. 543 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: I saw it there, and I thought, this is the 544 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: craziest thing I've ever seen, and for some reason I 545 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: wanted to do it. And that was you know, then 546 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: I stayed sober Friday night to do a climbing lesson 547 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: on Saturday, and and that was you know, I started 548 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: like regulating my drinking so I could climb on the weekends. 549 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: And that was the beginning of like weaning off of it. 550 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: That's really kind of interesting, you really were, you know, 551 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 3: you hear a lot of stories about people that quote 552 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 3: go to therapy. You were in your own you're figuring 553 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 3: out your own personal therapy at this point. Yeah. 554 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the power of the outdoors, Like I think 555 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: it was probably from those days on the boat. I 556 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: knew that, you know, gone into nature and that that 557 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: sense of awe that nature can kind of deliver is therapeutic, 558 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: you know. And I just started going out there and 559 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: that was filling me up in a different way and 560 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: slowly started having less nights of the week when I 561 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: was drinking. 562 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 3: I can't let this escape me. It's just a thought. Yeah, Well, 563 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 3: the irony that you just told me that when you 564 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 3: were with your dad, the way y'all escape your dad's 565 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 3: house was you went out and ran around in the 566 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: trees and jump creeks and played in the trees and 567 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 3: grass and stuff. And the irony of that I think 568 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 3: shouldn't be lost on any of this. 569 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, And actually, sorry, well that's like a that's pretty 570 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: profound thing to kind of pick up on, because because 571 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: you're right, you know, like when I think. 572 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 2: About back to my childhood, like the. 573 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: Most joyous memories of my childhood are being out in 574 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: the woods of my siblings, you know, like playing in 575 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: the pond, and it's like even the fond memories I 576 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: do have with my dad were, you know, sitting at 577 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: a tree line at sunset, watching where the pheasants would 578 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: go into roost, you know, because small game season was 579 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: coming up, and we were just listening to them, the 580 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: sound of them, their wings coming over. 581 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: The top of the hill. 582 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: And you know, it was in those little moments where 583 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: I actually got to bond with him, and I always 584 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: feel like that was really who he was. The other 585 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: stuff was just the noise getting in the way of 586 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: his from his own story. 587 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it all ties together, Bud. I mean, it 588 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 3: makes complete sense to me as I'm sitting here listening 589 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 3: to you, and I think it's really sweet that you 590 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 3: say that's who he really was. I mean, even though 591 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 3: he had problems, he chose to live on a farmhouse 592 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: out in the middle of the woods, so clearly he 593 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 3: was drawn to the same things that his son was 594 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 3: drawn to ultimately, which is interesting, I. 595 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 2: Think, Yeah, yeah, it is. 596 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: It just shows that that history, that lineage of pain 597 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: isn't really there's no one who's who's responsible for that. 598 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: It's at some point we need to forgive everybody in 599 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: the chain and start new. 600 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 3: So brother Scott's deciding I'm going to climb some ice 601 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 3: stuff and boulder with my new gortex jacket a granola 602 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 3: guy gave me, and I've got my ice climbing brochure 603 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 3: in my hand. Yeah, and now I'm in Bolder. Take 604 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 3: us from there. 605 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I I mean, I, you know, just to 606 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: be honest, right, I jumped right into that just with 607 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: the same vigor I was drinking and using with. And 608 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: I was like I was after it. I was training 609 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: for Ironman. Then I race iron Man. Then I had 610 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: to do a twenty four hour mountain bike race. Then 611 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: I had to do that race solo. Then I had 612 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: to you know, like I just started this, you know, 613 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: I was. I did transfer the addiction, but the difference 614 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: was inherent, and all of those activities were things that 615 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: sort of at a foundation a level, helped me start 616 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: to heal. And years later I realized that the real 617 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: magic of those activities wasn't the finish line. It was 618 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: actually the people I was training with. It was those 619 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: relationships that was really the bedrock of my sort of 620 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: support network. So those you know, when. 621 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 3: You're ony of them recovering addicts as well. 622 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: Or well, funny you asked, because one was my best 623 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: friend and climbing partner, Ben Court. You know, we met 624 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: at a climbing gym that he was a manager at, 625 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: started talking about climbing and realized we were both in recovery. 626 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: Then we started spending our days in Rocky Mountain National 627 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: Park climbing together. And then my other friend who I 628 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: climbed with was a clinical social worker, so she like 629 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: she just started to put the pieces together that you know, 630 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: as a social worker, what she realized the magic was 631 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: was not necessarily getting that kid that she was supporting 632 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: to the appointment he had to go to. It was 633 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: the drive there and the time that they got to 634 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: talk while they were in that sort of like parallel 635 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: activity of just sitting in the car listening to music, 636 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: talking about life. That was the most therapeutic part of 637 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: that experience. 638 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: And it's the. 639 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: Same thing that Ben and I were having in the mountains. 640 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: We were tied into a climbing rope, we were climbing, 641 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: We weren't really talking about our addiction story, but we 642 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: were building new identity and new memories together that started 643 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: to eventually push out those old negative feelings. 644 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 3: What you just said is amazing do you know Bob Zacchio. 645 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: I don't know. 646 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 3: In Bob Zachio, the therapy under a hood, all right, 647 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 3: when you get an extra forty five minutes, go back 648 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 3: to an army in normal folks library. We've only been 649 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 3: out a year, but early was an interview I did 650 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 3: with the kind named Bob Zakio, who is a social 651 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 3: worker therapist and was working specific with kids from the 652 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 3: same background we're talking about in your life right now, 653 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 3: oftentimes doing court ordered therapy, which he found completely useless yep, 654 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 3: and so very frustrated and wanting to make a difference. 655 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 3: One day, he just one of his kids showed up 656 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 3: that he's supposed to work with. It's dealing with addiction 657 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 3: and drugs and alcohol and all kinds of stuff. And 658 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 3: he says, come on, and he took them out in 659 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 3: the parking lot and he taught him how to cast 660 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 3: her reel. I was why. I was just talking to him, 661 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 3: and he found out these kids that don't want to 662 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 3: talk to me, if I take him out of the 663 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 3: office and just interact with them, they open up. Anyway. 664 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 3: Seven years later, he now has therapy at auto mechanic shops. 665 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 3: He has therapy at screen shops, he has therapy, fishing, 666 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 3: he has therapy and all of these things. And he 667 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 3: does the therapy to work that needs to be done 668 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 3: with kids, but he doesn't do it in office. He 669 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 3: does it while they're engaged in something that's interesting. And 670 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 3: the rate of his success of getting kids on the 671 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 3: right track is like twelve times of other social workers. 672 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 3: And anyway, it's a great story. But he said exactly 673 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 3: what you just said, that it wasn't the therapy that mattered. 674 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 3: It was a time to and from therapy and the 675 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 3: actual real lab organic interaction that made the difference. Yeah. 676 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that sound that's very similar to what the 677 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: phoenix became is that we just we realize that by 678 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: sharing this. I think of it this way, it's like 679 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: we would kind of go out climbing and face this 680 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: greater adversity together and get back from that safely because 681 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,359 Speaker 1: we relied on each other and our own gifts, you know, 682 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: in that setting. And then Ben and I would be 683 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: closer and supporting each other because we went through that together. 684 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: So when I had a tough day in life, I 685 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: could turn to him because that vulnerability had already been created. 686 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 2: And I think that. 687 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: The phoenix was just an idea about how we could 688 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: do that at scale. 689 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 3: And that concludes Part one of my conversation with Scott Strode, 690 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 3: and you don't want to miss Part two that's now available, 691 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 3: as we dive into how Scott turned the idea of 692 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 3: recovery program and community into the movement that it is today. Guys, 693 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 3: together we can change this country, but it starts with you. 694 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 3: I'll see you in Part two.