WEBVTT - The Bitcoin VC Who Just Infuriated The Bitcoin World 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:14.280 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:19.360 I'm Joe and I'm Tracy at Tracy, I have a question, Um, 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:26.200 have you ever had negative encounters? Sorry, have you ever 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:30.400 had negative encounters on Twitter with people with laser eyes 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.839 in their in their profile? Because I'm just curious. Have 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:35.120 you ever had that? Have you ever experienced it? This 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:37.839 reminds me of that scene from Mean Girls where they 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.760 say have you been personally victimized by Regina George? And 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.800 everyone raises their hand. Yes, yes, Joe, I have been 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:49.840 personally victimized by laser eyes on Twitter and toxic bitcoin 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.840 maximalists actually got really bad. Last year. I was tweeting 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:57.640 a lot about bitcoin, and I actually stopped tweeting a 0:00:57.680 --> 0:00:59.840 lot about bitcoin because of this, which I think is 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.600 to horrible. But last year I tweeted a chart of 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:08.319 bitcoin falling immediately after the CPI data was released, and 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.880 it came in hotter than expected, and people went absolutely nuts. 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:13.440 And I mean I could go through some of the 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.480 insults because I saved them for posterity, but they would 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:20.000 not be suitable for you know, the classy program that 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.240 is all lots well, as you point out, lots of 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.080 people have experienced this. There is certainly, at a very 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.120 minimum a there's a lot of people in like the 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.560 broader crypto space who really resent the media and how 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:35.959 it's portrayed and all this stuff. But there is certainly 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:42.040 also a subfaction, most notably the bitcoin maxis, the maximalist, 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.760 the laser eyes, people who only eat steak, people like that. 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.240 We've written about them. But you know, to your point, 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.720 like the inflation narrative, it's kind of totally blown up, 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:58.080 like you were right, Uh, well, and we have so, 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.400 I mean, we we can just talk about how terrible 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.760 Bitcoin maxi's are for an hour. I would love that. 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.080 But I think this gets to a really important point 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.799 about bitcoin, which is like, is it a cultural movement 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.040 about creating a new type of currency that is outside 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.080 the power or authority of you know, traditional figures like 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.480 governments and central banks, or is it about the underlying 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.920 technology actually enabling you to do something different? And I 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:30.120 think at the moment you really see crypto split between 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.200 those two camps. Yeah, is it a technology, is it 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.240 a money? Is it a culture? I think, you know, 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:38.840 it's hard to separate. There is a bitcoin culture, and 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:40.960 maybe that's the reason this thing that's sort of just 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.760 made up is worth so much. But anyway, we all 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.280 know what we all know the sort of like these questions, 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.880 the bitcoin maxi is what it's like to talk about 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.840 them on Twitter, all that stuff that Big said. Today, 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.480 we're going to be speaking with a long time bitcoin 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.880 er who has now earned the ire of many of 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.120 the same laser eyed plubs that you have. Hey, Hey, 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.320 welcome to the club. Is all is all I can say. 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.320 All right, let's just kick it off. We're gonna be 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.640 speaking with Nick Carter. He's a general partner and Castle 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.600 Island Ventures. Uh and uh, Nick, thank you so much 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.040 for coming on odd lots, Hello, Joe and Tracy. I'm 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.280 honored to be here. This is my favorite podcast. Um, 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:30.559 I wish it was under more auspicious circumstances. So, Gavin Anderson, 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.400 Mike Hearn, and now Nick Carter, why did you rage 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:39.520 quit bitcoin? I didn't quit, To be clear, I don't 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.000 think I deserved that comparison because I didn't try and 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:47.120 change bitcoin in anyway. But yeah, well let's back up, 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.800 because you are I think one of the most prominent 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.880 bitcoin investors bitcoin advocates. I think at one point you 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.360 yourself may have had laser eyes on your Twitter profile, 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:03.840 longtime investor in bitcoin related companies, and now a bunch 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:05.360 of them hate you. So what do you back up? Like? 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.560 What do you do? And why are they mad at you? Yeah? Sure, so? 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.440 I mean so I you know, for context, I co 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.520 founded a venture firm that invests in all across the 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.480 crypto industry. This is actually becomes part of the story later. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:20.960 You know, I identify as a bitcoin er. I think 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.080 bick when it is important and good, and my work 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.280 over the last five years is focused on really advocating 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.320 for bitcoin and you know, putting my resources to work 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:34.440 whatever they were in support of bitcoin specifically. And then 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.680 my fund. There is maybe a bit of a contradiction 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.560 there in the eyes of some because my fund, which 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:43.800 I started with Matt Walsh in invests all across all 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.640 across the crypto industry, primarily sort of crypto financial infrastructure 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:49.760 we call it, which is pretty you know, boring stuff 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.680 for the most part, basically making this sort of underlying 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.680 plumbing work better and connecting crypto to sort the FIAT 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.640 system and so on. And then that tension finally sort 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.680 of broke. Uh. The last couple of weeks when the bitcoiners, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.240 I guess realized I don't know, had they never looked 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.400 at my funds website or what, but they kind of 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.040 realized that I don't exclusively invest in bitcoin stuff, and 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.160 kind of a pylon began, and then I took the 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.880 opportunity to clarify. You know, I'm personally a bitcoiner, but 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.279 I'm not like one of the orthodox hardliners. I don't 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.080 think it's immoral to, you know, invest in other blockchains. 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.000 And that kicked off this enormous sort of brew haha, 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.120 which you know, I don't. I think people must be 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.080 extremely bored because I don't see why it's such a 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.839 big deal. To be honest, I have a ton of questions, 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.800 but maybe maybe just to begin with, I would like 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.839 to get your thoughts on why this happened now, Because, 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.640 as you say, you've been investing in a variety of 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:49.720 crypto ventures for many years. Why do you think the 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:56.880 outpouring of anger the pylon happened this time around? Well, yeah, 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.880 it's a weird one because anyone that really knows me 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.200 knows that I have made you know, I've been promoting 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.640 my views on all kinds of topics, whether not just 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.760 bitcoin stuff for a while now, whether it's defy or 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.440 stable coins or anything like that, And so they know 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.840 that I'm a pluralist. I mean the company I co founded, 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:18.920 coin Metrics, you know that's been around since, runs notes 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.800 for dozens and dozens of blockchains. So if you need 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.120 the smallest thing about me, you know that I don't 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.240 just you know, consider it a sin to build on 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.120 other block chains or run other notes. I think, really 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.000 what happened is, you know, obviously by Quin is drawn 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.760 down from whatever sixty nine thousand two, I don't know 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:39.680 where it is today, exactly twenty thousand people want scapegoats. 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.440 A lot of the sort of core premises of the 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.279 bitcoin ideology have been undone. Frankly, I think there's been 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.080 a real collision with reality, like whether it's the stock 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:55.440 to flow model having thesis this folk these folk economic ideas. 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.479 For instance, bitcoin always you know, the cycle low is 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.880 always higher than the previous cycle high. You know a 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.400 lot of these concepts, you know, big quin becoming the 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:12.080 reserve currency within head right, the inflation hedge. I mean 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:16.400 that it's undelotiniable, that that hasn't really occurred. And so 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.720 a lot of these core premises and ideas were basically 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:26.320 falsified or you know, like significantly challenged by real world events. 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:30.280 You know, the like cycle was much smaller in magnitude 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.440 than than prior cycles were, and I think people are 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.320 just really upset and uh kind of on the hunt 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.720 for scapegoats. And then I was sort of the perfect one. 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:42.000 Previously people have this like perverse like um, you guys 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.960 know that movie like The wicker Man, where you know, 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.080 to ensure the good harvest you have to sort of 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:52.040 sacrifice someone. Basically you've been sacrificed on the altar of cry. 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.400 So if you look at the previous rage quits, like 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.720 high profile ones, I'm not saying, hi, rage quit, but 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.320 you know, my current are sort of historically at the 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.800 bottoms of previous cycles, and so I think people are 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.760 actually looking for that, looking for Thank you, Nick Carter 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.840 for your service. So you wrote this article or after 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.240 you know, you made the investment and it seemed interesting, 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.520 is uh sort of like related to signing into a 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.200 various services with your ethere and wall and we'll talk 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.480 about that, because I do think that's interesting stuff. People 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:27.560 freaked out at the investment and then you sort of 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.080 wrote this again, I know you're you're still a bitcoin 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.280 or you didn't divorce, but there's sort of like, you 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.920 know what, there really is this toxic element and you 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:36.840 point out it's like, you know, there's a lot of 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.679 bitcoin and Tracy brought this up at the beginning, is 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.600 that a culture is that technology. You're like, bitcoin is 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.280 not your like steak dinners that you like hang around with, 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.640 like your fellow laser eyes. But that Big said, like 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.839 I think of you as also to some extent an 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.640 advocate for bitcoin culture, and like you know, like you 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:01.000 rail against seed oils and do you think that's something 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:06.280 really bad happened in one and I think you're really 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:11.480 you know, lifting weight, uh not worshiping false meat Bitcoin 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:16.600 MAXI adjacent. Do you think like you contributed to this 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:18.920 idea that in addition to maybe being a money or 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.800 a technology, that there was also like this sort of 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:27.080 like hardline culture associated with owning the coins. Yeah, I 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.400 mean that culture undeniably exists, whether it's you know, kind 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.800 of a joke, like a lot of the stuff you 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:35.680 mentioned is like a little silly and you sort of 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.079 like lean into it, and also because it just sort 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.480 of perplexes outsiders and right, that's like kind of the 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.439 point is to you know, build up this edifice. It's 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:45.960 like sort of not clear if it's ironic or sincere. Right, 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.520 it means it's classic internet culture stuff. Why is that? 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.079 Why is that the point? Though? Because bitcoin, like it's 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.200 all about the network effect. Why would you want to 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:58.640 alienate good bothsiders? Sorry, yeah, I mean that's a good question. 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:03.080 I think it's easier to unite against like outside of voices, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.840 whether it's like mainstream economists or the M s M. Right, 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.680 the dreaded m s M. It's sort of hard to 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.679 penetrate the culture, right if there's this veil of irony 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.920 coding everything, right, it's not clear if they're sincere. And 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:19.560 so then from the inside you can sort of like 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.280 mock these people when they sort of engage with your 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.520 ideas because it's like they're not part of the joke. 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.000 And I would say that's just like a classic defense tactic. 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:31.360 And so you sort of embrace, like, you know, deliberately 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.960 absurd ideas to maybe give like air covert to your 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:39.040 two maybe more serious ones. So what about the idea 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.160 that this sort of like hardline Max Shue culture has 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:48.600 at least in the past served Bitcoin well during periods 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.800 in which entities were trying to sort of change the code, 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.000 and of course I'm thinking most prominently about the block 0:10:55.080 --> 0:11:00.520 size war in and where there was a a bid 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.480 by some largely more i would say, more corporate influence 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:10.120 to change the code, to expand bit coins throughput, to 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.840 reduce fees, and I think out of that there was 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.040 this sort of like hard line small block faction that 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.880 held off the change and seemed to be benefit or 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.040 a lot of people think that was the right direction, 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.360 but that this idea that this sort of culture is 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.640 beneficial and necessary, even if in the short term it 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.679 does repel people. Yeah, I I that's a great question. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.040 I mean, I think if you go back to that 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.559 time and you know, really the block size war started 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.360 a long time ago, maybe even earlier than fourteen, was 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.680 probably the genesis. I would actually say a lot of 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.240 the people that were active participants then are not the 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.280 same participants now. I would say a lot of the 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.559 people that are the so called self you know, toxic 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.080 maxis or like self appointed defenders of the protocol like 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.240 those are actually newer bitcoiners. So like you have to 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.120 understand this churn, and I would say, what they're doing 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.520 is like, and I said this previously, they're doing kind 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:02.880 of like a sort of cargo cult like reenactment of 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.600 conflicts past. But you know, there's no real conflict right now. 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.280 Nobody's really aggressively trying to change Bitcoin in any sort 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.960 of hostile way. And so the block size war, like 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.800 I I still you know, come down on the same side. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.640 I would support the small block idea. I think that's 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.600 basically an engineering discussion. And then there was also a 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.079 meta discussion about how should bitcoin be changed, what's the 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.040 most appropriate way to change bitcoin? And it's still clear 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.240 to me that the attempt to add bigger blocks to 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.840 bitcoin was pretty ham fisted and definitely very corporate and 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.880 totally out of step with sort of the actual values 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.239 of the bitcoin the way things had been done beforehand. 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.720 Whereas you know, if you know, and so like a 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.719 lot of people, it's almost like stolen valor a little bit, right, 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.480 It's like, um, it's like you know, someone taking to 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.720 the streets today and like assaulting random people and like 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.680 claiming lineage to you know, like their grandfather who fought 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.800 at Normandy or something like that. Right, it's like they're 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:01.040 reenacting the conflict from before, like you know, going through 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.560 the same emotions, but there's no real conflict today. I mean, 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.720 nobody's trying to change bitcoin anyway, so it's not clear 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.840 what they're defending bitcoin against. So you know, I think 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:26.520 there's been a bit of a subtle change there. Really 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.160 simple question, but what's the difference between or can you 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:35.840 just define toxic bitcoin maximalism, because I think one of 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.600 the things that's been going around about you now that 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:40.720 you know, um a lot of people are mad at you, 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.599 is this tweet from where you said something to the 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.880 effect of every bitcoin maximalist you've met had been friendly 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:52.800 and approachable, and now fast forward too and it seems 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:54.560 like you're saying, oh, no, you know, there's a lot 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.320 of toxicity in the community, so maybe you could just 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.640 give us a definition of what a talk sick bitcoin 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:06.800 maximalist is versus your run of the mill bitcoin MAXI yeah, 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.440 that I that tweet was true in to be clear, Um, 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.240 maybe I just hadn't met enough or I've only met 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.800 the right ones, but yeah, people were very nice to me. 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.000 I always still knew her to bitcoin back then, so yeah, 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.520 it's I think a lot of the issue here is 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.760 definitional because basically bitcoin maximalism emerged as like an epithet 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.600 that I think fatalic butterrant, actually coined in a kind 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.000 of pejorative sense, like saying bitcoin or bitcoinners were too 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.680 close minded and parochial and that's why he had to 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.200 make ethereum. And so a lot of the hatred for 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.840 the term came from that, I believe, and then some 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.440 people did embrace it though, and so then some bitcoinners 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:50.920 sort of call themselves maximalists, and the debate now is 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.000 really confused because nobody has their good definition for it, 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.200 even though there are people that call themselves this, and 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.680 there's a whole faction that does. And I think they're 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.320 skating on that you know, ambiguity a little bit to 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.560 try and avoid being pinned down in their beliefs. Um 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:06.640 So I think it's deliberate that they kind of refused 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.360 to define it. But I'll define in two ways, so 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.680 the soft form and hard form, so kind of like 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:16.520 reminiscent of the E M H. So soft form bitcoin maximalism. 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.240 And I wouldn't say this is toxic, but I think 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.160 this one's you know, pretty justifiable. Is like, look, bitcoin 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:24.400 is the only blockchain that's kind of worth building on. 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.840 Blockchain should probably only pertain to moving money around as 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:33.560 opposed to non monetary use cases. Other crypto assets are tokens. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.840 They're sort of mostly waste of time, and there's definitely 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.520 a lot of scams out there. Stable coins are probably interesting. 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:41.720 This is sort of more adjacent, but maybe they should 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.960 reside on Bitcoin is apposed to other blockchains. And then, 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.120 like you're probably also pretty skeptical fractual reserve banking if 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.960 you subscribe to this ideology, and so it's kind of 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.840 like a more modern form of gold buggery, I would say. 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.120 And then you have the hard form, which I would 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:01.440 say is pretty venomous. Really, Bitcoin is absolutely the only asset, 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:05.080 certainly within the crypto sphere that is sort of moral 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.200 and good to own, and other assets are deeply sinful. 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.320 And you know, I'm using religious language because I consider 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.120 this to be a secular religion, Like it's a secular 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.120 religion to me. It's very obvious that it is. Now 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.720 they consider all coins is attacks on Bitcoin they've been 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.680 really zero some mindset, whether maybe that's true, maybe it 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:25.680 is zero some, but they consider all coins is like 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.680 actually a kind of a fiat like a retaliation of 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.920 the central bankers, um and uh. And they think that 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.840 launch conditions are absolutely paramount, so like the origin of 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.120 the blockchain is very important, and if there's an original 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.200 sin like you did an I O or pre mind, 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.800 that can never be undone. And then they think other 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.680 blockchains are literal scams, and they'll be explicit about this. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.080 There's no other worthy place to build anything other than Bitcoin. 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.840 Anyone building another blockchains is sort of like being deeply misled, 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:01.560 either being tricked or they're being cynical. Then there's kind 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.320 of two competing views within this hard form camp. One 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.399 is that there's no innovation outside of Bitcoin whatsoever, and 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.640 that it's all kind of artifice and fraud. And then 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.040 the other view is that there is some innovation, but 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.879 it will inevitably collapse back in a bitcoin, and anything 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:20.120 good that's done anywhere else will collapse. And then there's 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.160 like all kinds of crazy, crazier stuff, which I'm sure 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.640 that both of you have encountered, which is like any 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.200 asset that is used in a monetary context at all 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:33.199 will collapse into bitcoin when hyperbit qualization occurs. That's you know, 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:35.399 sable coins are a waste of time because all fiats 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.439 are going to zero probably imminently. And then there's like 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.760 the lunatic fringe stuff like you know, stock to flow 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:45.760 dynamics being extremely important. You can even make models. These 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.640 people tend to think fractionals are banking is literally fraud 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:53.560 like literally fraudulent, and uh that you know, other adjacent 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.840 stuff like the hardness of the monetary medium that you're using, 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:00.440 like influences, like the very nature of society. It's off, 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.640 so like your time preference and the quality of art 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.119 and things and food and things like. Well, I was 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.480 gonna say because all coiners eat seed oils and bitcoiners 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.760 don't write. I mean to be clear, I think there 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.240 actually is a lot of scientific support from my anti 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.639 seed oil view, but we're not gonna so I actually 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:23.840 I would have a real question about soft form bitcoin maximalism. 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.600 And I think you're in a really good position because 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.360 to answer this, and you're because you're pregnantists, but also 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.280 because your investor in this space. But like, what is 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.320 the state of building on bitcoin? And I guess this 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.639 is something that uh, you know, the first time I 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.480 ever like checked out unit swap and was able to 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.119 like sign in with a wallet, meaning not just setting 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.320 up an account and not the not having I was like, 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.280 oh my god, this is like really cool. Like I 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.679 don't know if it's gonna go anywhere, but just like 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:54.480 the idea of like being able to click and you're 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.240 like you're in the app, it seemed like extremely cool 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.480 to me. And I know that your new controversial investment 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.359 is kind of related to that, But like, what is 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.159 the state of other stuff like building on bitcoin? Like 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.760 do you see it or people doing it? Doesn't work? 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:14.080 Could you theoretically build like a unit swap type environment 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.000 on just to be clear, the unit swap sign and 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:23.159 that's on ethereum right, yeah, yeah, I mean, um, I 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.120 guess there's two ideas here. One is like defy, like 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.840 the composable um infrastructure you would use to do sort 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.000 of swaps on defy. And then there's also the web 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.240 three like sign on with meta mask, so you definitely 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:39.040 couldn't really, I mean, you can do wallet based sign 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:43.199 on on Bitcoin with something like ellen off that is doable, 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.800 Like if you're custoding your keys, then you can It 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.120 doesn't matter what blockchain it is. You can definitely use 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.920 that as a log and but defy the more like 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:55.240 that's just a whole ecosystem that hasn't emerged on bitcoin, 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:59.000 and I think it'd be really challenging to rebuild all 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.399 of that kind of from scratch on bitcoin a because 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.639 like the underlying programming language is very very limited, and 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.359 then be just because the critical mass is on a 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.920 theorem and that that's kind of five six years of 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:16.199 development and understanding best practices and building out liquidity and 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.280 things like that. That's one of the things that you know, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.320 I think it's very valid to be like a bitcoin 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.080 only person. I don't even like the term maximalist. I 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.399 totally hate it in fact um. But you know, we 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.760 invest in plenty of bitcoin only startups like founders that 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:31.399 are like, I only want to focus on bitcoin. I 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:33.640 think this is the biggest problem facing the world right now, 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.280 you know, fix the money, fix the world. And uh, 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.800 they're very sincere and we're completely fine with that, right 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:43.679 And they're building custodial tools for bitcoin, or they're building 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.520 exchanges or brokerage is you know, even like some stuff 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.199 you can refer to a smart contracts. Certainly, Lightning has 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:54.240 revitalized the developer community in bitcoin. To answer your question, Joe, 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.919 there's definitely a lot of enthusiasm there, but you know, 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:02.080 bitcoiners and so that's a valid perspective completely. But you know, 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:04.639 the hardliners, I would say, are totally They have to 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.200 find a way to dismiss what's happening on other block 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.719 chains and and dismiss the fact that Ethereum is charging, 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:14.840 you know, fifty times more in fees, is earning you know, 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.800 fifty times more in sort of blockchain revenue than Bitcoin is, 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:22.560 and the critical massive developers and applications and liquidity and tokens, 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.520 if you're into that, it really is elsewhere. And that's 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.040 just a reality the bitcoiners have to confront and and 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.120 many of them are. They have a hard time confronting that. 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:33.760 I think this is kind of the heart of a 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.360 lot of this disagreement. And Joe, I remember last year 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.080 you wrote a very very long and very good piece 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.800 about the sort of cultural split between Bitcoin and Defy 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:47.560 and this idea that a lot of Bitcoin supporters or 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:52.000 maxis really wanted to preserve the blockchain. They didn't want 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.600 to tinker with it, you know, don't change anything. It's 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.280 supposed to be as you know, immutable, timeless store of 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.560 value kind of idea verse is a lot of the 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:05.480 experimentation going on on DE five. So Nick, I'm curious 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.679 for your your view here, like why is it that 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.480 a lot of stuff seems to be built on other 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:14.920 types of chains versus Bitcoin, Like what is the hold 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:19.159 back for Bitcoin use cases? Because again, you know, you 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:21.240 can argue that there are some use cases and people 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:24.840 are doing some interesting stuff, but it definitely seems to 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.000 be less than what people are doing with other types 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:31.800 of technology. Yeah, I mean, there's just this attitude, and 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.679 I think comes down to design philosophy, right. You know, 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:38.040