WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 16 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.199 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.400 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.959 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:27.720 can make your own decisions. Welcome everyone to the It 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:32.159 Could Happening a podcast. My name is Saint Andrew and 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.640 I'll be a host as we talk about politics stuff 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:43.560 with me. Today is Garrison Hello, and Christopher Hello, and 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:49.880 Sufi Hi. And today we will be tackling or rather, 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.360 we'll be taking a trip to the anarchist activism in 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.760 Latin America with a specifies more. But first we need 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.680 to get into some context here. The first organization to 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.880 promote the concept of a SPECIFISEMO was the Federation Anarchista 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:10.040 Uruguaya or the FAU, which is founded in nineteen fifty 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.040 six by anarchist Milton's who embraced the idea of an 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:18.000 organization there was specifically anarchist, but those who don't know. 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:25.319 Not long after rather two decades after six UM, the 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:29.119 US install a dictatorship in Uruguay, the last from nineteen 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:35.520 the f A you survived that dictatorship and went on 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:40.240 to establish connections with other South American anarchist revolutionaries. So 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.720 they helped to support the founding of the Federa Shao 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.680 Anarchista Gaocha or f a G. I don't know if 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:53.280 I'm pronounced that correctly, the Federal ANARCHISTAKABOA and the Fedshaw 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.960 and Arkista the Rio de Janero or f the r 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.400 G in their respective regions for so and they also 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:06.840 helped to found the Argentinean organization nas Alka, which means 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:12.520 rebel while when you coming onto stage in Latin America 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.480 in the last few decades, the ideas that really make 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:20.840 up A specifies more Sasha, a historic threat that's really 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:26.520 run through the anarchist movement internationally since the beginning. UM. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.359 It may as we get into like what is and stuff, 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.440 it may sound very similar to platform is UM. Are 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:40.600 you all familiar with that current? Yeah, I'm from familiar 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:45.560 with platforms a little bit, but we can probably I 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.480 don't know, explain it for the people at at at 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.560 home who are not as who do not spend as 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:57.079 much time thinking about old, old, old anarchist terms, right 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:04.240 right right, so they're generic listener or viewer or whatever. UM. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:09.120 Platform is UM began with a document that was written 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:13.360 in nine by the former Peasant Army leader Nestor macne 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.919 either Met and other militants of the Yellow Truder or 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:23.720 Workers Cause group. They published a document called Organizational Platform 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:28.959 of the Libertarian Communists, and it was written in response 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:36.760 to well being exiled from the Russian Revolution UM and 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:41.200 having to struggle really to find their foot in after 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.440 the Bolsheviks turned the work of Soviets into instruments of 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.040 one party rule. UM, so the Power Space group, the 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.360 Yello Truder, they really criticized the anarchist movement for a 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:57.920 lack of organization. So they proposed an alternative that is 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.600 controversial to some anarchists, but it's just actually a general 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:05.360 union of anarchists based on anarchist communism that would strive 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.400 for theoretical and tactical unity and I focus on class 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:15.440 struggle and labor unions. Obviously, platform is UM, like all 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.960 political ideas, it's not a static you know, the world 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:24.839 has progressed. Sickness significantly in a century. So um, while 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.600 there is an emphasis and workers struggle and class struggle. UM, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:33.520 when you speak to most platforms today, I would say, Um, 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.680 obviously I don't have stats on that. I would say 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.560 most platforms can recognize that, you know, the no war 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:45.120 with the class war is a bit reductive. Um. I've 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.840 also noticed, actually that platformism has been getting a bit 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.120 more popularity lately. I don't know if it's just me 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.640 and my perception, but I don't know if you'all seen 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.800 that I have. I've not seen tons of it here. 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.279 A lot of the type of anarchist of my it around, 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.720 or at least see is is not is not in 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:06.800 this vein. But most most of the stuff I see 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:12.520 is like around um, like the kind of like live 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:18.640 anarchy type kind of strings um and more individualists. Right. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.760 But that's just I think a very like Pacific Northwest 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.960 specific thing that the anarchists here just kind of generally 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.680 trend in that direction. So I'm not sure what it's 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:33.240 literally like across like this country in other places around 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.360 the world. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I've 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:39.200 definitely seen it especially I think I think it's it's 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:41.320 I don't know almost. I think it's bigger a few 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:46.640 years ago, but back like there is a big spike 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:53.560 of black Rose, um serious group for a while, and yeah, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.960 people who like called themselves like anarcho communists or anarcho 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:01.360 syndicalists kind of generally swam in this general ocean. Yeah, 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:05.720 I definitely saw that as a bigger thing in than now, 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.640 at least like locally from my area. And I think 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.159 I will say, yeah, the blacks people, a lot of them, 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.360 like very very specifically were specifi based on a lot 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.960 of it was based on like people who had like 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:25.320 experiences with a specific various ways, right right, Yeah, Because 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.040 I was actually just about to say, I think that 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.440 black Rose is more a specificity than Platform is. But 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.680 of course there is you know, a lot of overlap 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:38.400 between these two currents, right. Um. As for my experience 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.680 with like platform and some and stuff, have seen um 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.440 discussions of it happening more. I mean that's all I 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.840 can really see that I've seen. Um I have you 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.000 ever read once? But at least if discussions are happening, 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:59.600 the likelihood of things coming out of it might be 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:04.000 a bit. In Greece, I guess another current that m 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:10.480 has been part of the anarchist milieu, psycheist wave whatever 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.440 is organizational dualism, which came out to the nineteen twenties 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:19.240 Italian anarchist movement. So they used the tomb to describe 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:23.720 involvements of anarchists both as members of anarchists specific political 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:30.400 organizations and also as militants in the labor movement. In Spain, 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:35.920 the Friends of Druti group emerged to oppose the Gradual 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.800 Reviews of the Spanish Revolution, and they also ended up 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.720 emulating some of the ideas of the Platform by criticizing 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:49.520 you know, cnt F phase, c ant f AIS, gradual 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:56.000 reformism and collaboration with republican government. Um, So the sparks 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:57.480 of war and stuff. You know, there's a lot of 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.320 forces that play and we're gonna get into it now, 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.640 but it is, I would say, as a side note, 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:11.560 important to recognize that there is no model it when 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.480 it comes to like these sort of civil wars and 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:17.320 historical events. Um, you really have to look at things 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.200 in context, and you know, it's not trying to strip 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:24.760 them away from the goings on at the time. Also, 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:30.480 the Chinese anarchist movement of the nineteen tens um advocated 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.599 for similar ideas. I'm going to try to pronounce the 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.360 name of the group, hopefully don't get castled. But it's 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:43.280 them who Shuang Fu Kongshan Jui Tong. She's a way, 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.559 I think, which is the Society of Anarchists Communist Comrades. 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.800 And yeah, they advocated for a lot of similar ideas. 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.160 So there's a lot of different currents around the world, 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.920 influenced by you know, the historic conditions. But the general 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.520 thread that you know, anarchists need to get together and 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:09.160 work as a unit is you know what's thrust in 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:13.000 it right and specifies more is just a fresh continuation 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:19.800 of this threat of this trend. So what is what 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:25.400 is the specificies more exactly, the three key concepts um 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:30.200 that I see emphasized again and again. One the need 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.240 for specifically anarchist organization built around a unity of ideas 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:39.239 and practice. Two, the use of the specifically anarchist organization 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.959 to theorize and develop strategic political and organizing work. And 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.920 three active involvement in and building of autonomous and popular 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:53.440 social movements, which is described as the process of social insertion. 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:00.400 So kind of core to the whole specificity current is 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.439 which is rather anti tectical some of the trends that 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.400 I've seen in the past couple of years. It's sort 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.319 of a rejection of this left unity idea, right, this 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.440 idea that there can be these this sort of big 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:26.160 tent organization that can somehow establish all these different visions simultaneously. Right. So, 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:31.960 I specificity reject the idea of just unity for unity's 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.240 sake because they feel it boils down to sort of 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:39.440 Louis common denominate to kind of wishy washy politics. They 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:43.640 feel that when unity is preferred at all costs, it 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:48.040 leaves very little room for unified action or develop political discussion. 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.839 In fact, in my experience, when you have like a 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:58.160 lot of political heterogene um, there tends to be a 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:03.560 lot of unproduct to drama lack of better word. Obviously, 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:09.400 people of different political stripes should work together, um, and 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:14.040 there's no like harm in that. But at the same time, 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.800 when it comes to certain types of organizations, having a 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:23.599 sense of ideological unity is I would say pretty important, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.480 as you know, you don't want to have all these 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:32.520 different groups constantly butting heads for all these different visions. 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.160 You know, you want to have at least some sense 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.640 that we're moving in sync. Right, So you're not going 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:41.440 to have some people who are trying to establish social 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:43.959 democracy and some people who are trying to get like 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:50.240 this workers State code and code, or you know, people 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:55.200 who just want I don't know, like a higher minimum reach. Right. 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.720 I mean, everyone's on a different stage of their political journey. 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.520 But what a specificity trys emphasize is that while we 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:09.120 can work within these larger social movements, um, it's important 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:16.040 that anartists specifically come together to try to shape those 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.280 movements in an organized way. And I'll explain because it 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.679 kind of sounds a bit like vanguardism for some people, 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:27.319 this idea that you know, these this cabal of like 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:33.000 revolutionaries are trying to manipulate things behind the scenes. But um, really, 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:38.800 what a Specificitts argue is that anarchists needed space, the 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:44.200 near space for like common strategy and reflection and collective 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:49.319 responsibility and you know, a place to discuss plans and 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.360 build trust and share analysis and you know, put together 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:57.079 short and long term goals all that jazz. Um. So, 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.000 while the specificitys do reach out too and work with 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.360 social movements regardless of whether they fit this code and code, 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.640 anarchist purity test um, and I see that with my 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.680 tongue planted filmily and cheek. Of course, Um, they want 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.840 to make sure that they can sue still as an 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.559 active minority, so that these movements aren't diluted. And so 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:22.720 I noticed IM like throwing out a lot of different 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.599 woods and freezers and ideas, um, you know, things like 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:31.560 ideological unity and the need for sort of a consensus 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:36.480 within the group. Um. And speaking of I've spoken about 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.640 consensus on my channel before, so I have a breakdown 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.280 on it people to check out if they like. Um, 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.679 I was spoke of unified strategy, right, so you're not 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.280 just joking around. You actually have mapped out sort of strategy, 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.160 like for example, black socialists in America. They aren't like 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.880 a specifically a specificity or to my knowledge, but you 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:01.760 can see um that they have unified like clearly leader 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.079 of strategy, and they're making moves to make it to 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.600 achieve it, and they're very public about those moves, right. Um. 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.480 I also want to emphasize, of course, and the specifies 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:16.679 more the whole idea of this active minority. You know, 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.880 it's not just a bunch of like it sounds like 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:25.200 a passive book club, right, and a specificity group is 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.720 a group of people who are passionate about you know 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:34.320 this cause, um, And obviously passionate people have this habit 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.200 of for they can more than they can chew. Right. 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.720 So what I would advise like a specificity and a 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:46.640 specificity judgment, adjacent groups, and really just organizations in general, 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:53.320 is that keep your size in mind, keep achievable goals 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:58.480 within sight, because if you don't, you know, it's very 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:03.400 easy to burn out very quickly. Yeah. Um. With the 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:08.440 specificity groups, it's important that they understand their responsibility, but 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:14.440 also that they understand their limits. Lastly, and very importantly, 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.320 social institution I think is one of the most important 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.480 parts for specifiesmo. And I think even if you don't 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:26.880 take anything away from like a specificity specifies more, you 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:32.600 at the very least like implement social institution or at 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:37.920 least concepts within social institution into organizing, right Because obviously 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.320 um and I guess a kind of fewer number. But 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.160 what social institution tries to point out, I guess, or 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:52.600 tries to develop within a movement, it's just awareness that 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:58.280 the people who are making these moves from organizing and whatnot, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:04.920 that they don't relinquish their power to like other figures 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:12.080 or forces or parties or whatever the case may be. Right, um, 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.000 social institutions times in the belief that the oppressed of 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.240 the most revolutionary sector of society and the seed of 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:24.280 future revolutionary transformation of society lies already in these classes 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:29.280 and social groupings. So it doesn't mean socialization doesn't mean 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:35.360 like acting within single issue advocacy campaigns or you know, 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:41.160 like trying to take over people's existing struggles. It means 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.920 getting involved in daily fights and daily struggles for people 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.200 to better their own conditions. It means, you know, connecting 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:53.040 with workers, connecting with immigrants, connecting across neighborhoods, um working 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.720 towards racial liberation, working within students struggles and tenant struggles. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.520 As people are like part of these uncles, they become 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:08.359 conscious of their place in society. Right, And part of 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.440 our rule is to try to develop their consciousness. So 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:15.960 as people are tempered and tested and recreated, they see 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:21.760 their position in the what's what we're looking for in 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:27.280 the pecking order? Right, They see that there are forces 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:29.320 that play that are keeping them down, their structures play 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.359 that are keeping them down, and they change from just 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:38.119 being like social classes to being active social forces. So 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:45.120 they're brought together by organic methods and by self organized cohesion. 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.200 What you notice of the popular movements, like, for example, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:53.640 Black Lives Matter, is that, unlike what some conservatives might assume, 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.800 the Black Lives Matter organization wasn't the one like pulling 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:02.240 the strings, you know, like the official group wasn't there, 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:06.640 you know, telling people okay, march here, burned that right here, 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.920 move that. You know. It's like the people themselves came 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:17.240 together and you know, really expressed the desire for change. 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:23.359 And so really, as they become self conscious actors, aware 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.920 of their power, of their voice, of their nemesis, which 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:30.879 is the ruling elites that control their social order, a 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:38.680 specificitys try to keep that thrust right. What a specificity 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:43.160 argue is that essentially there's an anarchist on the current 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:48.520 two popular social movements that should be preserved and maintained 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:54.200 and cultivated. Right with popular movements, um, they're very quickly 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:58.960 co opted by in positions of leadership or by you know, 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:05.480 academically eats, or by political parties. But specificity aren't there 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:09.920 to try to make groups identify as anarchists, right, They're 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.720 there to just maintain that thrust to be self organized 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:18.920 and to fight for their own interests, because ultimately that's 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.320 our natural impulse as humans, you know, it's really the 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:28.800 propaganda that tells us, you know, um, like you have 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:30.680 to go through these proper channels. You know, you have 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:35.760 to vote with your dollar or you know, food for 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.480 these politicians or whatever the case may be. Converse and 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.560 all these different things call up your representatives. The natural 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.959 thrust of a person is not to like relinquished control 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.280 of themselves, you know, is to try to maintain that 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.800 um and so a specifics trying to push against the 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.040 propaganda that keeps us from maintaining that, push against the 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:01.440 co optation that ships that from us. So, yeah, do 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:06.240 any sort of automatic critiques of a specifies move come 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:10.520 to mind? We all, I'm not sure about like critiques 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:12.399 per se. We need to think about it more. But 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.159 a few things that come to mind around so, like 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.480 you talked a bit about like the difference between like 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:24.399 left unity and creating like an anarchist unity, um, and 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.919 for people at home, I would like to maybe extrapolate 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.040 why those are different things. I know you have a 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:34.040 good video on left unity already, but like in terms 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:36.480 of trying to like, you know, if if one of 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:40.399 the goals being creating like an anarchist organization that kind 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.160 of unifies different anarchists, how that is a different type 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:47.680 of unity than just left unity in general. Um. I 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.520 think that might be a point of clarification. And then 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:52.919 the other thing I was wondering about is like, how 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.760 does this intersect in terms of like individual goals versus 0:20:55.880 --> 0:21:00.080 like group goals or like organizational goals and so like, 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.399 because like there's a there's a back and forth between 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.760 like personal autonomy and then you know these type of 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:11.919 social movements that kind of almost gained their own thrust 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:19.760 right right, Yes, to the point about the difference between 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:26.639 left unity and anarchist unity, um well, obviously artists, oh 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:32.080 soon fairly heterogeneous. Um. I think our general thrust for 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.560 self determination and autonomy and that kind of thing is 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.200 it brings us together. You know. The difference between like 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:43.800 say anarchist unity where they defferently some I would say 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:48.920 key disagreements within the milieu and left unity is that 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:54.800 I feel there are some extremely incompatible factors that prevent 0:21:55.000 --> 0:22:00.439 left unity from being viable. Yeah, when there's a thrust 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:08.320 among significant segments. I mean really every non libertarian segment 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:13.320 of you know, they couldn't get left two fun known 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:19.320 our popular energy towards state institutions, whether it be through 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:25.520 insurrectionary social democracy or reformist social democracy in a case 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:31.240 of amounts and stock damage respectively. Um, I think that 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:40.159 that really keeps us from really working together on anything 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:45.640 more than small goals and small projects. I mean, we've 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:50.159 really seen the whole left unity idea of fall apart, 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:55.720 you know, through wars and through even just like what 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.040 should be discussions between people, you know, like the First 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:04.200 International literally split because of the differences between you know, 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.200 the so called left currents, you know, between the anarchists 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:12.400 and the other socialists. So lat unity is not something 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:14.879 that I even to achieve. I think most people know 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:18.440 that about me by now, um. But regard to like 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:22.159 anarchist unity, and of course the differences between artists, I 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:27.960 think the general rusted to maintain the autonomy and self 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:30.760 termination of the people and of the social movements via 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:36.359 inserting ourselves in is what really clues us together. And 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.480 of course that alone, I don't know if that's enough 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.440 to maintaining a specificity organization, because you know, like I 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:51.720 noted a specificitys try to um develop deeper level you know, 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:55.960 strategies and theoretical discussion and that kind of thing. And 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.440 so with those sort of discussions, you know, you're gonna 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:02.960 see a lot more of the distinctions bearing out. But 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:08.880 at the very least, um, I think anarchists generally could 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:13.399 benefit from a degree of at least unity in the 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.880 sense of maintaining as aularity in the sense of maintaining 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:22.920 the libertarian thrust of popular movements. Actually, other thing that 0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:26.600 you had noted about the sort of friction between individual 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:32.080 goals and organizational goals, between autonomy and sort of how 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:34.720 social movements end up taking on like an energy of 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:40.720 their own. Um. To be quite honest, I don't think 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:47.440 I have like a fully developed answer for that. Yeah, um, Because, 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:53.320 on the one hand, a social movement that forgets that 0:24:53.440 --> 0:25:00.399 it is about, you know, deliberation of individuals is you know, 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:03.440 in my view of social movement that's quickly going to 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:08.800 and obtaining against the people who are you know, fueling it. 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:13.240 At the same time, I've interacted with like a lot 0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:20.040 of people what pretty selfish or pretty egotistical or just 0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:25.959 argumentative for the sake of it sorry, So if you're 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:27.639 gonna say something, yeah, I was just like the thing 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:30.080 that keeps popping up into my head is, you know, 0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:34.120 one of the things that gets misconstrued all the time 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:36.920 is who's calling the shots. And I kind of feel 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:42.920 like what you're saying is everybody in a way, right, Yeah, Yeah, 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:47.840 I think that like, which is good sometimes but not 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:52.960 good other times obviously exactly, Yeah, because I think it's 0:25:53.000 --> 0:25:55.240 it's very easy to fall into this sort of um 0:25:57.640 --> 0:26:04.000 almost reactionary I like island mentality not island mentality is 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:07.560 in Caribean is mentality is in personessn't as an island 0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:12.119 around like autonomy and you know personal freedom, you know, 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:16.320 like this rendering idea that you know on step map property, 0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:19.920 you know that kind of thing just let people do whatever. 0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:24.240 It's kind of like more so alchocalyst conception of what 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:27.280 like freedom and autonomy is I think an important part 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:30.200 of autonomy and you know freedom and yeah, like this 0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:37.320 project is you know, accountability and is you know, like 0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:43.800 consequences like social consequences and how your actions affect others. 0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:46.960 You know, like what ant say he was to recognize 0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:52.080 is that we are not in fact island you know, 0:26:52.280 --> 0:26:57.879 our actions or behavioral words affect other people. And so 0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:00.080 I think it's going to be a constant projects of 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:10.280 balance um individual personalities and goals. But I mean, yeah, 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:14.080 it's it's tricky, right, Like you know, we're you're talking 0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:19.520 about like some kind of you know, group organization to 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:23.320 work together to kind of you know, think of achievable 0:27:23.400 --> 0:27:28.119 goals and create steps to get there um. And I 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:32.480 feel among a lot of people who proudly declare themselves 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:35.399 anarchists and at least like and they're extremely vocal. Like 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:38.120 these are like people both like online and in person 0:27:38.240 --> 0:27:40.760 organizing that are very are very like vocal and try 0:27:40.840 --> 0:27:44.600 to very much like make their place known. We've seen 0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:49.200 trends away from this direction in terms of like rejecting 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:53.560 the idea of goals and demands and just you know, 0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:56.800 like this this more insurrectionary kind of tendency of just 0:27:57.080 --> 0:27:59.960 making total destroy for the sake of it and if 0:28:00.000 --> 0:28:02.520 a simple committee, yeah, and and and and that. I mean, 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:04.920 like I know that like platform is m is kind 0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:08.399 of like it's not like Antiens instructionary, but it's like 0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:13.200 it's it definitely critiques that type of instructionary trend. UM. 0:28:13.560 --> 0:28:16.760 So I'm thinking about like, you know, this idea and like, 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:22.280 how with with with this kind of general you know, decentralized, 0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:26.440 no no demands, no goals kind of general kind of 0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:31.400 direction that like capital a anarchists are are doing. How 0:28:31.640 --> 0:28:35.000 like what's what's maybe some parts of specifics that we 0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:38.600 can actually take into account to be like, hey, maybe 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:41.680 there's you know, like I I don't like I don't 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:46.440 like being called like any adjective anarchist. I think it's silly. 0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:52.240 I like I like the um I think earlier this 0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:54.760 year or yeah, they last year, Like I just got 0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:58.000 to the point for I'm anarchist, you know that's yeah, Yeah, 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.320 I like the part in Desert. It's like, I'm an 0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:04.640 anarchist of many adjectives. I'm not, I'm not I'm not 0:29:04.760 --> 0:29:07.640 always an insurrectionary, I'm not always a syndicalist. I'm not 0:29:07.760 --> 0:29:10.920 always you know, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah um. 0:29:11.440 --> 0:29:14.040 And I feel like that's would be really useful kind 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:16.960 of thing for people to focus on more in terms of, yeah, 0:29:17.440 --> 0:29:19.440 it can be fun to make total destroying that it's 0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:22.360 a very base instinct, but it also would be great 0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:28.400 to like improve people's lives a little bit um and yeah, 0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:31.080 and there's like to to to kind of like dueling things, 0:29:31.640 --> 0:29:34.200 um and in terms, that's why I do really like 0:29:34.440 --> 0:29:36.000 the part of like this type of stuff that it's 0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:38.560 really appealing to me just because I kind of already 0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:40.160 work on this myself, so I'm like, oh, I'm I'm 0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:43.160 already doing this. But it's like the it is it 0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:46.120 is like the social the social insertion side of things, 0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:50.400 I think is something that would be a much a 0:29:50.520 --> 0:29:53.680 much better way of thinking about. Like everyone hates talking 0:29:53.680 --> 0:29:56.680 about optics because yeah, it's frustrating, but I think the 0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:59.880 social insertion method is a better framework for kind of 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:04.160 dealing with some of those same problems, um and yeah. 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:08.640 And then like you know, there is even among insurrectionaries 0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:10.520 and all those you know, all those types, there still 0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:13.360 is like a decent amount of like group projects and stuff, 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:15.080 and that is I think a really good thing to 0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:18.640 focus on because but yeah, there's not many anarchists and 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:20.479 it would be cool if there was more. And if 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:22.680 we just focus on the parts that make people go, 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:25.280 oh that's kind of silly and pointless, then we're not 0:30:25.360 --> 0:30:29.240 really going to grow anarchism that much. Um. So highlighting 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:31.440 the parts they're like, oh, yeah, you're actually helping people. 0:30:31.840 --> 0:30:34.280 That's gonna convince a lot more people who are kind 0:30:34.320 --> 0:30:38.120 of already trending in that general general direction, and then hey, 0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:40.320 maybe in a few years they can also be doing 0:30:40.520 --> 0:30:46.280 silly destruction for fun because it is it is fun sometimes. Um, Yeah, 0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:51.200 like this, as you mentioned, optics reminded it is kind 0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:54.560 of pet peeve I have with some you know, instant 0:30:54.600 --> 0:31:00.920 people where they try to treat like ideologies or specifically 0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:04.880 anarchism as like a pr project that we have to 0:31:05.000 --> 0:31:09.800 like constantly be trying to shift the optics and micromanaged 0:31:09.920 --> 0:31:13.080 like every aspect. Like No, I think the best remedy 0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:16.600 for like, because you're not going to match the power 0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:20.800 of mass media, what you can do to push back 0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:23.600 against the sort of propaganda is help people, and help 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:28.160 people and identify as anarchists as you're helping people, right, Like, 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:32.280 that's the easiest and quickest way to dispel people's notions 0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:35.680 and like conceptions of what an anarchist is. If we 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:40.920 were to take like socialization right and sort of, I 0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:43.880 would say, there's still it's a bit and individualize it 0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:48.240 a bit. Um. I would say that as a practice 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:51.280 you know, just even if you don't know any any 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:55.520 other anarchists in your area, right, just being there, being 0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:58.880 in these movements helping people and you know, saying you know, 0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:03.840 this is what I believe. Um, just talking to people 0:32:04.000 --> 0:32:06.120 about what you believe as a police and as you're 0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:09.480 helping them. You know, that goes a long way, much 0:32:09.560 --> 0:32:16.160 longer than any you know, poster um campaign or like 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:21.000 wheat pasting initiative or artwork, um you know wall arts 0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:24.320 or whatever. You know, like actively helping people. Of course 0:32:24.360 --> 0:32:28.760 wall lot has its place and double atle bit myself, 0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:35.200 but you know there's um, it's not it's ultimately like 0:32:36.520 --> 0:32:38.880 talking to people and helping people and being their people 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:43.760 and being honest about your intentions that I think, you know, 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:47.080 we should working towards. And I think those types of 0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:51.840 projects are something that the specific model like excels that 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:54.680 in terms of like creating like a unlitay anarchists who 0:32:54.760 --> 0:32:57.120 get like who have like a goal in mind and 0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.080 then go out to achieve the goal. Helping people like 0:33:00.200 --> 0:33:04.240 doing like doing like like like direct directly helping people 0:33:04.520 --> 0:33:07.200 is something that that type of organization model is kind 0:33:07.280 --> 0:33:11.560 of the best at UM because you can yeah, really 0:33:11.720 --> 0:33:15.000 like organize things much better with a small group like that, 0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:17.520 and create goals that are actually very achievable, whether it 0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:20.480 be you know, building a community kitchen or building you know, 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:26.160 heating centers for like for the winter, like under under 0:33:26.200 --> 0:33:29.480 bridges or whatever. You know, all those types of starting 0:33:29.520 --> 0:33:31.600 comming to the gardens, all those kinds of things are 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:34.680 I think what this type of model really excels at. 0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:37.160 And yeah, you don't need to change your ideology to 0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:40.000 this one word because that's that's silly. But you can 0:33:40.360 --> 0:33:42.080 pick up different parts of it be like, yeah, that 0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:45.000 actually seems like a useful way of the world you want, 0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:48.320 you know, politicians just ruling hand co opt our project, 0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:50.920 you know, like just basic things like that, you know. 0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:53.480 And then from there, you know, as you are talking 0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:56.360 with people and meeting people who are passionate about issues 0:33:56.480 --> 0:33:59.959 in these social movements, you know, no need to say 0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:05.960 keep you from developing this sort of um partumilarly online 0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:11.960 um in group kind of mentality. It also opens up 0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:15.880 opportunities you to develop your and this is on the 0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:20.640 topic of like the individualist social institution. It prints or 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:23.600 presents opportunities for you to develop your own I had 0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:26.399 no like book club, and then from that book club 0:34:26.840 --> 0:34:30.400 could come and a specificity organization. You know, as you 0:34:30.520 --> 0:34:36.239 begin to develop your politics and your shared politics, more 0:34:36.320 --> 0:34:38.920 can come out of it. So don't underestimate, you know 0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:42.680 the potential of just putting in the work and talking 0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:46.840 to people. Yeah, you know, just being there on the ground. 0:34:48.280 --> 0:34:50.279 One of the best things you can do to help 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:53.360 stay alive in the well things are heading in the 0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:57.080 direction that they're heading societally, is like making friends and 0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:00.319 forming a friend group and then yeah, like a doing 0:35:00.360 --> 0:35:03.720 stuff together that makes dealing with everything else that's happening 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:09.400 so so much better. And hey, remember our old friends 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:13.440 less remark started with a book club, so hey, you know, 0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:18.680 you never know where book clubs can lead exactly exactly. 0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:23.279 It's actually really interesting. Um video clip of Marie book 0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:26.800 Gin talking about book clubs and like the power and 0:35:26.880 --> 0:35:29.640 potential of book clubs. Um. I don't know if we 0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:31.480 could probably link that in the show notes, but it's 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:36.759 like a really interesting make sure drink. So ultimately, a 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:40.760 specificity believe that social movements we reached their own logic 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:45.120 of creating revolution, not when they all just decide to 0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:49.359 identify as anarchists and weave the black flag. But when 0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:55.520 the majority reach a consensus and a consciousness of their 0:35:55.600 --> 0:35:58.440 power and the ability to exercise their power and their 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:03.919 daily lives. So even if they do not adopt anarchism, 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:10.640 they still consciously adopt the ideas embedded within it. They 0:36:10.680 --> 0:36:14.840 are multiple political currents will exist within any movement, and 0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:19.200 so it's important that we as anarchists and I guess 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:23.279 specifically as a specificity, are there to actively combat the 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:27.719 opportunism that come from you know, these forces from this 0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:34.879 whether electoral or find goddess within these social movements as well, 0:36:35.840 --> 0:36:40.600 we can also help to push them further through um, 0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:46.680 you know, pushing for more direct democracy and consensus, through federalism, 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:51.920 and confederating with other social movements through you know, building 0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:54.880 up the mutual aid within these movements. Like if you are, 0:36:54.920 --> 0:36:59.840 for example, part of a mutual aid group in one neighborhood, 0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:03.800 you can push them to start reaching out with mutually 0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:06.600 groups and other neighborhoods and creating a network of mutual 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.759 aid groups that can build into something bigger, you know, 0:37:11.360 --> 0:37:19.880 combining resources and manpower to really push the revolution. You know. Lastly, 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:22.600 we'll say that for those who are trying to like 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:26.680 get into the whole specifies more thing. Um, I mean, 0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:31.120 you could start a new organization from scratch. But again, 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:35.600 like the easiest thing to do is suggest getting there 0:37:35.640 --> 0:37:39.960 to people and be honest with the people. And I 0:37:40.080 --> 0:37:42.280 keep saying the people, even though I have my critiques 0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:47.759 of this amorphous conception of the people, but the point 0:37:47.840 --> 0:37:53.880 remains that our goal is to spread our ideas, not 0:37:54.040 --> 0:37:58.600 to get people on any particular ideology, but to get 0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:06.560 a liberatory consciousness underground and to generalize that consciousness. And 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:09.440 for those who are curious about the specifies more in 0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:15.440 action and social institutions, specifically the Federal Show. Anarchista GAUSA 0:38:15.760 --> 0:38:19.840 in Brazil has worked with neighborhood committees and urban villages 0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:23.160 and slums. They've built alliances with the rank and file 0:38:23.239 --> 0:38:26.120 members of the rural land as workers movement the must 0:38:26.960 --> 0:38:32.280 and they've also worked with trash and recyclables collectors UM Brazil. 0:38:32.400 --> 0:38:35.000 For those who don't know, as a lot of high 0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:40.640 levels of temporary uh and contingent employment, unde employment and unemployment. 0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:44.920 So the working class isn't how will you traditionally conceive 0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:48.400 it as like just surviving primarily off of wage labor, 0:38:48.800 --> 0:38:52.359 but it's more so this is sort of subsistence work 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:57.040 informal economy, gig economy can deal. So being able to 0:38:57.160 --> 0:39:02.000 connect with these when char collectors, for example, who are 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:04.959 part of this sort of economy, the EFIG has built 0:39:05.000 --> 0:39:06.759 a strong relationship with them and help them to form 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:10.520 their own national organization to you know, push for their 0:39:10.600 --> 0:39:18.120 interests and to collective eyes their recycling operations. Specifies More 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:22.560 is also um worked with the has also worked in 0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:26.280 the efforts of the Zabalaza Anarchist Communist Front in South Africa, 0:39:26.960 --> 0:39:31.560 as they also are strong opponents of social institution and 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:36.120 you know, really being embedded in these social movements in Argentina, 0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:41.520 in Brazil, in South Africa, and in the US in 0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:45.400 the case of Black Rose Anarchist Federation, specifies More has 0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:50.680 been building as a key point reference. And so I'll 0:39:50.719 --> 0:39:53.160 leave us off with a code from the use of 0:39:53.239 --> 0:40:00.160 Front Collective an anarchist group online. If libertarian socialists the 0:40:00.280 --> 0:40:03.719 organized with libertarian socialists, then they will lose contact with 0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:07.200 the broader population they need to be reaching. If libertarian 0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:11.160 socialists merely joined social movements without advocating various libertarian socialist 0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:14.680 practices that can be used, then social movements can easily 0:40:14.760 --> 0:40:19.239 drift into being susceptible to reformist and strategic liberal and 0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:24.600 Lendinis tendencies and opportunists. If libertarian socialists merely joined social 0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:27.719 movements and try to spread ideas and practices in mere 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:31.840 individual ways, they will be far less successful than a 0:40:31.920 --> 0:40:36.120 well thought out, coordinated effort. And if theoretically specific libertarian 0:40:36.200 --> 0:40:39.840 socialist groups try to control social movements and popular organizations 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:43.160 from the top down, then such specific groups sacrifice their 0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:47.960 own principles and would reproduce hierarchical organizing. In contrast to 0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:52.040 authoritarian fine goddess conceptions, specifies more groups and a specificity 0:40:52.480 --> 0:40:58.560 put their activity towards a self organization of movements and organizations. Ultimately, 0:40:59.640 --> 0:41:03.719 as I honestly love this court from Shanty Alston, power 0:41:03.800 --> 0:41:09.960 to the people, where it stays with the people. Peace. Yes, Andrew, 0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:12.560 please please plug your plugables because they are good and 0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:18.800 people should in fact listen to them, right, thank you. Safety. First, 0:41:18.880 --> 0:41:21.320 of course, I will say that you could follow me 0:41:21.520 --> 0:41:26.480 on Twitter at underscore st Drew and on YouTube at 0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:31.200 St Andrew's um and you can find me here apparently 0:41:31.520 --> 0:41:35.920 twice a month, which is pretty great shout out. It 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:43.320 could happen here. Take care everyone, peace again he's again. 0:41:57.480 --> 0:42:07.160 What's new? My shit? Yeah, new year, same ship. I'm 0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:15.480 Robert Evans. This is behind the we retired. We retired 0:42:15.560 --> 0:42:18.359 this bit? Who where is this time for a new bit? 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:23.880 This is it could happen here the podcast about how 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:27.759 things sometimes feel like they're falling apart sometimes and maybe 0:42:27.880 --> 0:42:29.960 we can do things about that. You know what's falling 0:42:30.000 --> 0:42:33.040 apart is me because I, during my break woke up 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:35.640 at like one thirty every day and now it's someone 0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:40.040 speakable hour in the morning. I hate this the time 0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:45.320 you packed the time. So for for for one of 0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:48.600 our first episodes of the new year, we have decided 0:42:48.719 --> 0:42:52.840 to subject ourselves to your para social whims um and 0:42:53.160 --> 0:42:55.960 we are going to be doing maybe one, maybe two 0:42:56.080 --> 0:43:00.600 Q and A episodes um uh, giving as to your cues. 0:43:01.440 --> 0:43:05.879 And I've been in the queue. It's okay. I've been 0:43:06.000 --> 0:43:09.840 told that our producer Sophie has a list of questions 0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:12.680 already prepared so that I can stop talking and she can. 0:43:12.800 --> 0:43:14.920 Now you've been told you're the one who posted the thread. 0:43:16.520 --> 0:43:21.080 Sophie said that she would read them. I did volunteers tribute, 0:43:21.080 --> 0:43:24.359 but I might I might I might take that back, 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:30.200 it's so how much attack. Uh, let's let's let's start 0:43:30.280 --> 0:43:35.319 with let's start with a a simply a good one. Uh. 0:43:35.840 --> 0:43:39.560 What has been your favorite episode slash topic to research 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:43.040 in this past season so since we started season two? 0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:49.480 Oh god, Um, I enjoyed the metaverse Facebook episodes because 0:43:49.520 --> 0:43:52.160 there's a part of me that really likes shipping on 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:57.200 bad tech industry stuff. Um. It fills a deep part 0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:03.239 of me just just really comprehensively thinking about how how 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:05.360 terrible the vision of the future these people have it. 0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:10.120 So that was probably my favorite. I liked the Climate 0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:15.160 Leviathan stuff. Um, the Climate Leviathan, Climate Behemoth, Climate Now, 0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:19.760 Climate X kind of four quadrants. I I liked learning 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:22.880 about that, like, jeez, almost a year ago actually by 0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:26.160 the time I started researching for the show. Um, And 0:44:26.239 --> 0:44:28.600 I'm decently happy with the way that those topics were 0:44:28.640 --> 0:44:31.400 presented and how they keep popping back every once in 0:44:31.440 --> 0:44:35.400 a while. I think in terms of just the favorite 0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:38.719 episode I recorded, it was probably the interview with the 0:44:38.840 --> 0:44:42.279 Common Humanity Collective people, just because like listening to a 0:44:42.360 --> 0:44:45.600 bunch of people who have very sophisticated and well developed 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:48.600 mutual aid project and then listening to you know, them 0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:50.759 talking about their political development and how they've been sort 0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:55.279 of solving their problems was really reassuring and cheerful in 0:44:55.320 --> 0:44:58.200 a lot of ways. And then research wise, it was 0:44:58.320 --> 0:45:01.920 definitely the Spooky A fifty one episode where I was like, oh, 0:45:01.960 --> 0:45:05.640 I'm gonna do a fun episode about uh, the government 0:45:05.719 --> 0:45:07.800 and aliens and it was like, oh no, here's every 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:11.400 war crime ever and like sixteen people almost killing everyone 0:45:11.480 --> 0:45:17.000 on earth. This is This is probably probably the most 0:45:17.040 --> 0:45:21.719 fun I had was with the Chaos, Magic and Esotericism 0:45:21.840 --> 0:45:29.080 episode How Silly It Is? Um? Yeah, that one. That 0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:32.000 one also was just just a pleasure to record. I 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:35.920 also loved having Corey doctor owen um totally because that 0:45:36.040 --> 0:45:39.359 was cool. That was cool. That was that was very cool. 0:45:39.760 --> 0:45:43.280 How cool of us. I've enjoyed our our fiction episodes 0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:46.319 with Margaret and with Rebecca those those have been great. 0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:49.839 And I've loved having sat Andrew. Yeah, that has been 0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:53.640 also very cool, fantastic. What were you gonna say, Robert, nothing? 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:57.080 Oh great, this person says. I think I've got my 0:45:57.120 --> 0:46:00.440 head wrapped around mutual aid, community resilience and all the 0:46:00.480 --> 0:46:03.239 stuff you talk about. Any tips on how to effectively 0:46:03.280 --> 0:46:06.160 communicate it to people who might not be at least 0:46:06.280 --> 0:46:13.520 initially open to it. H Um. I mean it kind 0:46:13.560 --> 0:46:16.200 of depends on why they're not open to it, right. 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:19.160 So it's it's a matter of are they just somebody 0:46:19.239 --> 0:46:22.680 who has a lot of faith in in systems as 0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:24.520 they exist, or they someone who's kind of coming at 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:28.480 it from more of a traditional like liberal um status 0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:31.480 perspective where they think the option is to get in 0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:34.320 line with you know, the Democratic Party and support that 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:37.080 and that will make things better. Um. Like basically, are 0:46:37.080 --> 0:46:39.680 they a top down er um, or there's somebody who 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:43.200 rejects it because it's like communism um, and they don't 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:45.800 they don't think that people have any kind of fundamental 0:46:45.880 --> 0:46:49.239 responsibility to themselves. Um. Because you are going to have 0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:52.439 kind of a different approach to trying to reach either 0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:55.120 of those people, um if they're coming at it from 0:46:55.200 --> 0:46:59.279 kind of more of a right wing standpoint, but they're not, 0:46:59.680 --> 0:47:05.160 you know, uh talking about shooting vaccine doctors. Um, they're 0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:07.920 just kind of conservative. I think the way to do 0:47:08.040 --> 0:47:10.400 it is to sort of hearken back to some of 0:47:10.440 --> 0:47:15.560 these very traditional ideas of like, um, American homesteaders and 0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:19.480 and independent you know, communities on the frontier and self 0:47:19.520 --> 0:47:24.640 reliance and how mutual aid is people taking responsibility UM 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:28.320 for their communities rather than you know, this idea I 0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:31.200 think a lot of conservatives have of like people um 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:34.360 just kind of lazily taking charity. How it's it's different 0:47:34.440 --> 0:47:38.160 from charity, and that it's a community UM seeing its 0:47:38.239 --> 0:47:41.280 own needs and becoming independent as much as is possible 0:47:41.480 --> 0:47:45.680 on the state from the state UM by trying to 0:47:45.760 --> 0:47:48.680 meet its own needs, and how that UM is better 0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:53.479 for people than just sort of um boging like being 0:47:53.840 --> 0:47:56.279 dependent upon government programs. I think that's kind of the 0:47:56.320 --> 0:47:58.600 way in which to reach out to those people with 0:47:58.680 --> 0:48:00.920 that idea if they're coming at it from more of 0:48:01.000 --> 0:48:04.879 a liberal top down approach, UM, I think you can 0:48:05.320 --> 0:48:08.640 get more into the weeds and may argue about kind 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:11.560 of inefficiencies within the system, problems within the system. I 0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:13.760 think one thing to really point out that will probably 0:48:13.840 --> 0:48:16.239 still be fresh to a lot of people of that 0:48:16.360 --> 0:48:20.400 persuasion is how frightening the first couple of weeks of 0:48:20.880 --> 0:48:23.440 quarantine were and all of the supply line issues and 0:48:23.760 --> 0:48:26.120 kind of the early breakdown to be like, look, um, 0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:28.600 that didn't go away, like right, you can see that 0:48:28.760 --> 0:48:30.600 that we're still dealing with a lot of this and 0:48:30.680 --> 0:48:34.399 we're still having supply line disruptions and the state really 0:48:34.480 --> 0:48:37.279 has not kind of even under Biden sailed and to 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:40.640 clear the gap. And so we need these community resiliency 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:44.840 programs UM. And you can you know, depending on the 0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:48.239 kind of person there, you can also sort of point out, um, 0:48:49.200 --> 0:48:51.799 the degree to which there is our attempts at kind 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.560 of sabotage of any sort of of of of top 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:58.080 down government programs by the right and how UM that's 0:48:58.080 --> 0:49:00.800 part of why you need community resilient and see programs 0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:02.640 because you can't guarantee who's going to be in the 0:49:02.680 --> 0:49:04.759 White House, you can't guarantee what's going to continue to 0:49:04.800 --> 0:49:07.680 get funded. Um. And outside of kind of any of 0:49:07.800 --> 0:49:11.640 the the structural issues um that make that stuff difficult. 0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:15.320 So I think, UM, that's kind of broadly speaking, the 0:49:15.440 --> 0:49:19.560 two different ways you you can broach those conversations with people, 0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:23.880 depending on the tendencies they're they're looking at it from, uh, 0:49:24.320 --> 0:49:28.080 let's let's let's get into an unpleasant one. What's the 0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:30.600 gang's outlook on this year's election and how do you 0:49:30.640 --> 0:49:34.680 think it might position us for do we see more 0:49:34.840 --> 0:49:38.560 violence letting up to the next presidential election. I know 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:42.839 we'll be doing a prediction z Is episode later. Um. 0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:46.279 But as for this election, I have I've not looked 0:49:46.320 --> 0:49:49.160 at anything about it. I think the Steelers are going 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:53.080 to take it all. What what will what's border? Are 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:57.719 the Steelers? Um one of them? That's great? Uh uh? 0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:07.080 I mean yeah, I mean I feel like if Democrats 0:50:07.200 --> 0:50:10.640 want to keep the power that they currently have, they 0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:14.440 will probably need to do some type of symbolic action 0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:17.680 that makes people think they actually do things. They've managed 0:50:17.719 --> 0:50:21.960 to have control of every and done absolutely nothing that 0:50:22.040 --> 0:50:26.040 they So I'm guessing if they want to keep that, 0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:29.640 they should probably do something really soon um or else. 0:50:29.680 --> 0:50:32.120 I don't see people being super eager to vote in 0:50:32.200 --> 0:50:36.080 two for the Democrats. Yeah. Yeah, I mean one of 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:38.719 the issues they've got is this this thing that you know, 0:50:38.840 --> 0:50:41.000 kind of the Technocrats always have where you know, as 0:50:41.400 --> 0:50:43.120 we as Corey pointed out when we had them on 0:50:43.200 --> 0:50:45.240 there have been some really positive moves by the Biden 0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:48.600 administration in terms of like appointments and how different kind 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:52.120 of agencies are being handled. Um, But when it comes 0:50:52.160 --> 0:50:54.880 to the things that he actually campaigned on, like it 0:50:55.040 --> 0:50:58.279 just hasn't It hasn't happened, should it ain't been done? Um, 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:02.000 Like the closest we've gotten recently is yet another kick 0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:04.400 the can down the street a little bit for student 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:07.320 loan repayments, And I agree, I think they need to do. 0:51:08.000 --> 0:51:10.680 There's like two big things they could do that might 0:51:10.920 --> 0:51:13.440 have a significant shifting effect. One of them would be 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:17.200 student debt forgiveness, and one of them would be fucking 0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:22.440 de schedule marijuana. Even without Congress, Biden could could not 0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:26.760 factively make marijuana not and like that would be number 0:51:26.800 --> 0:51:30.000 one politically, the easiest fucking win in the world because 0:51:30.040 --> 0:51:32.160 the vast majority of Republicans don't give a shit about 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:34.960 that anymore. Um, it will piss off cops, which is 0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:38.239 probably why you won't do it. But like, those two 0:51:38.360 --> 0:51:41.280 things could have an impact on mid terms. That's certainly 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:43.520 a thing that would like you can campaign on more, 0:51:43.640 --> 0:51:45.480 but I don't. I don't know that I think he'll 0:51:45.520 --> 0:51:48.480 do that. And of obviously I guess another big old 0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:51.080 payment to stay home, but I think that shipped un sailed. 0:51:52.120 --> 0:51:54.000 Like I honestly like, I don't think they want to win, 0:51:57.120 --> 0:51:59.640 so they can sit there and then and go, oh yeah, 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:02.400 we can't do anything because Republicans control the House, and 0:52:02.400 --> 0:52:05.200 you guys need to like, you guys need to like 0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:07.560 save us in four this is the most important election 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:10.160 of our lifetime. It's like, and they will keep doing 0:52:10.239 --> 0:52:12.400 this over and over and over again until literally the 0:52:12.480 --> 0:52:15.040 seize boil and everyone, you know, everyone is being heard 0:52:15.080 --> 0:52:17.279 into concentration camps, like they will just keep doing this 0:52:18.239 --> 0:52:19.719 and and like I think that's that's the thing that's 0:52:19.719 --> 0:52:22.480 actually important about the two cycle is that like the 0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:26.560 Democrats have you know what you know what what the 0:52:26.640 --> 0:52:28.880 rejection of Bernie Sanders sort of is is the Democrats 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:31.440 essentially going, we are not a popular party, right, like 0:52:31.560 --> 0:52:33.040 we we are not a party that is going to 0:52:33.280 --> 0:52:36.040 like like we will not even give the pretense of 0:52:36.200 --> 0:52:38.120 like having a base that we represent and we do 0:52:38.239 --> 0:52:40.640 things for like we're just we're just in it for ourselves. 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:42.840 We're in it's just like, you know, give all of 0:52:42.920 --> 0:52:45.560 our weird like black Rock friends positions in the government, 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:48.279 and we don't, you know, and it's you know, it's 0:52:48.320 --> 0:52:50.600 it's we we don't have a policy agenda, and we 0:52:50.680 --> 0:52:52.480 don't care if we lose, because if we lose, all 0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:54.520 you people just have to go put us back into 0:52:54.560 --> 0:52:57.439 office because the alternative is just more death camps. Yeah, 0:52:57.520 --> 0:53:01.080 I mean, I think there's a broad belief within kind 0:53:01.120 --> 0:53:04.240 of the Democratic Party that things are still business as usual, 0:53:04.400 --> 0:53:06.640 and that the Republican Party is still a political party, 0:53:06.760 --> 0:53:09.400 and so kind of the handing off and switching of 0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:13.799 power is fine. That's seen as business as usual, rather 0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:17.960 than the Democrats are the Republicans are continually ratcheting away 0:53:18.000 --> 0:53:20.240 from there being any chance of a switch of power, 0:53:20.520 --> 0:53:23.000 um at least through legal means. Like that's the whole 0:53:23.040 --> 0:53:25.880 thing they're doing. And the failures to pass any kind 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:29.400 of voting rights and the failures to see like a 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:33.160 voting right reform as an existential issue for not just 0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:37.200 the party, but like the concept of of uh democracy 0:53:37.600 --> 0:53:42.240 in this country is is I think evidence that however, 0:53:42.360 --> 0:53:44.480 you kind of try to rationalize in your head why 0:53:44.560 --> 0:53:48.120 it's happening. There's a real disconnect between the party leadership 0:53:48.280 --> 0:53:53.359 and understandings of the new nature of reality. Yeah, well 0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:55.759 that's the other thing. I mean, they'll be fine, right 0:53:55.880 --> 0:53:59.520 like outside of like another January six killing them all, 0:54:00.200 --> 0:54:02.160 Like they'll be fine. It doesn't like for them, it 0:54:02.200 --> 0:54:04.440 basically doesn't matter if Republicans take power. Maybe maybe some 0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:06.120 of them will get impeached, they'll be like a show 0:54:06.160 --> 0:54:08.520 trial for like two people or something, but like they're 0:54:08.560 --> 0:54:11.279 gonna be fine, and you know, that's that's the thing 0:54:11.360 --> 0:54:13.319 that motivates all of their thinking, is that they can 0:54:13.400 --> 0:54:17.400 survive another public administration. Like we're you know, we're dying 0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:20.960 under both of them, and you know, like I mean, 0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:22.200 this is this is partially you know, if we want 0:54:22.239 --> 0:54:23.880 to talk about sort of the COVID response for a 0:54:23.960 --> 0:54:26.080 second and the relation that has to the election, it's like, yeah, 0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:28.840 the Democrats are just like completely given up even the 0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:34.520 pretense of doing literally anything about COVID literally because literally anything, yeah, 0:54:34.920 --> 0:54:37.440 go out and die, like so we can talk about that. 0:54:37.560 --> 0:54:40.719 That's a separate Yeah, yeah, that's a separate issue, I think, 0:54:40.800 --> 0:54:43.640 just in terms of like how how to interpret what 0:54:43.840 --> 0:54:45.960 they're doing with COVID and the degree to which I 0:54:46.000 --> 0:54:49.839 think they even have a chance of uh whatever. Um. 0:54:50.000 --> 0:54:51.640 But yeah, I was like, like, they don't care if 0:54:51.680 --> 0:54:54.239 we live or die, Like we care if we live 0:54:54.320 --> 0:54:55.840 or die, and we're gonna have to do stuff on 0:54:55.920 --> 0:54:59.799 our own outside of this because they're just gonna kill us. 0:54:59.800 --> 0:55:03.200 All yep. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's hard 0:55:03.239 --> 0:55:06.759 for me to tell where the elections are going to 0:55:06.920 --> 0:55:11.319 go precisely. Uh Biden's polling certainly isn't great. It's also 0:55:11.400 --> 0:55:15.719 not like wildly out of step with how where presidents 0:55:15.800 --> 0:55:19.440 often are kind of at this point UM in in 0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:24.520 their cycle. So and also it's pretty normal for the 0:55:24.640 --> 0:55:27.160 party that just won the presidential election to lose at 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:30.759 the midterms. That's more normal than not UM, I think. So, 0:55:30.840 --> 0:55:32.360 I think the big questions are number one, like the 0:55:32.440 --> 0:55:34.359 degree to which it's a wide sweep, which is going 0:55:34.400 --> 0:55:37.120 to depend on the actual impact a lot of these 0:55:37.520 --> 0:55:42.120 UM efforts to kind of restrict voting and jerrymander, Like 0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:45.840 what the actual on the ground impact is UM, and 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:48.800 the degree to which we've seen an actual shift, because 0:55:48.840 --> 0:55:50.839 one of the things that the polls don't often tell 0:55:50.920 --> 0:55:55.120 us is like, yeah, Democrats are not popular. Most people 0:55:55.160 --> 0:55:56.960 seem to be aware that a lot of promises have 0:55:57.040 --> 0:56:00.040 gone unfulfilled, But it doesn't also mean that they like 0:56:00.200 --> 0:56:04.000 the Republicans UM, who as the party of Trump, are 0:56:04.040 --> 0:56:07.960 still kind of widely disliked by people. So it's kind 0:56:08.000 --> 0:56:11.080 of unclear to me what precisely is going to go 0:56:11.280 --> 0:56:13.359 down by which I mean whether or not it's going 0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:16.400 to be a pretty normal midterm, whether Republicans pick up 0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:20.320 some seats or like a nightmare blowout. Um. And I 0:56:20.440 --> 0:56:22.000 do think that has a lot to do with whether 0:56:22.160 --> 0:56:27.279 or not Biden and like does a couple of the 0:56:27.400 --> 0:56:30.480 things that a president can do unilaterally that would be 0:56:30.680 --> 0:56:34.400 really easy for other people to campaign on. Um. Like 0:56:34.600 --> 0:56:37.080 he they have to, like if they actually do want 0:56:37.160 --> 0:56:39.640 to win, they have to they have to make a 0:56:39.719 --> 0:56:42.160 couple of big hail mary's they have to do again, 0:56:42.239 --> 0:56:43.839 Biden has to do a couple of the big things 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:46.480 that a president can do and then say, okay, see 0:56:46.520 --> 0:56:49.600 I did a thing, put more Democrats in, and we 0:56:49.680 --> 0:56:51.799 can do this other big thing that a president can't 0:56:51.840 --> 0:56:53.320 do on its own or something like that. Like I 0:56:53.480 --> 0:56:57.560 I just don't see, Um. I mean, you know, anything 0:56:57.640 --> 0:57:01.000 could happen. Still, it's fucking January. I think there's a 0:57:01.160 --> 0:57:03.560 positive if you want to be in terms of things 0:57:03.600 --> 0:57:06.200 that are making me kind of optimistic, um And and 0:57:06.239 --> 0:57:08.160 in terms of things that are better about when the 0:57:08.200 --> 0:57:10.920 Democrats are in powder and then the Republicans. You can 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:14.799 bully the Biden administration to taking broadly positive action, which 0:57:14.840 --> 0:57:17.000 is what happened with student loan repayments. Right, that's why 0:57:17.080 --> 0:57:18.920 that did get kicked down the can a couple of 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:22.280 kick down the road a couple of months. Um. And 0:57:22.520 --> 0:57:27.200 so I do think there's potential in um harassing the 0:57:27.280 --> 0:57:31.560 Biden administration to taking actions that can make Democrats more popular. Um. 0:57:31.680 --> 0:57:33.480 That would not be the reason to do it. The 0:57:33.520 --> 0:57:35.360 reason to do it is so that people don't starve 0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:39.919 trying to pay back student loans. Um. But it does 0:57:40.160 --> 0:57:43.440 point to, I think in an avenue of hope. UM, 0:57:43.680 --> 0:57:48.479 if we're trying not to be complete dooomers in January two. Yeah, 0:57:48.680 --> 0:57:53.680 and speaking of avenues of hope, it's time for an advert. Ah. 0:57:54.000 --> 0:57:56.160 The only thing that gives me hope is the products 0:57:56.200 --> 0:58:02.800 and services that support this podcast. And we are back back, 0:58:02.920 --> 0:58:09.120 we are, we are, i've i've I have a question. 0:58:09.440 --> 0:58:12.880 I would like us to talk about. UM new year 0:58:12.920 --> 0:58:18.320 book list? Oh yeah, that's so, what's what's some I 0:58:18.400 --> 0:58:21.280 think we could answer this like and then they also 0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:23.680 someone else followed up with saying a recommend some books 0:58:23.720 --> 0:58:26.200 that maybe not just left left this theory of climate change. 0:58:26.480 --> 0:58:29.520 Also some like fiction stuff as well. And I'm just 0:58:29.560 --> 0:58:31.840 gonna say the books that i'm reading or is on 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:34.280 my reading list. Not. I'm not gonna recommend books I've 0:58:34.280 --> 0:58:37.320 already read. I'm just gonna say the ones i'm currently reading. UM. 0:58:37.400 --> 0:58:41.240 I'm still making it through hyper objects for an upcoming episode. UM. 0:58:42.560 --> 0:58:45.200 I picked up a really a book I wanted to 0:58:45.240 --> 0:58:48.640 get for a long time called Islands of Abandonment, which 0:58:48.720 --> 0:58:52.479 is about um people, Well, no, it's it's it's about 0:58:53.000 --> 0:58:57.880 places that have kind of been forgotten and regrown or 0:58:58.000 --> 0:59:01.400 taken have been kind of reclaimed by the area that 0:59:01.440 --> 0:59:03.840 they were, that they were built on. And then I 0:59:03.960 --> 0:59:06.720 also have a random few books on alchemy that I'm 0:59:06.720 --> 0:59:12.760 going through as well. That's most of my books. Horrible. UM. 0:59:13.640 --> 0:59:17.120 I read. The last book I finished in was in 0:59:17.240 --> 0:59:21.120 the Garden of Beasts, which is by what is his name? 0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:24.479 I think it's Eric larson Um. He's a guy who's 0:59:24.520 --> 0:59:26.640 written He wrote like Devil in the White City and 0:59:26.800 --> 0:59:28.600 a couple of other books that people have probably read 0:59:28.880 --> 0:59:34.160 Eric larson Um, And it's about the first US ambassador 0:59:34.360 --> 0:59:37.560 to Nazi Germany or what becomes Nazi Journey. He gets 0:59:37.560 --> 0:59:40.760 sent there right before, like like months before Hitler takes power, 0:59:41.320 --> 0:59:45.680 and the book largely traces he and his family's journey 0:59:45.760 --> 0:59:49.840 in Nazi Germany from like kind of didn't really care 0:59:49.880 --> 0:59:54.480 about German politics and were often broadly sympathetic towards the Nazis. 0:59:54.560 --> 0:59:57.880 They melt met like his daughter kind of is very 0:59:58.000 --> 1:00:01.480 much like on board with Nazi revolution for like the 1:00:01.560 --> 1:00:05.800 first half year that she's there. She's also like simultaneously 1:00:06.080 --> 1:00:09.040 dating the head of the Gestapo and the Soviet um 1:00:09.320 --> 1:00:12.400 like assistant ambassador, which is fascinating. Like, it's a very 1:00:12.520 --> 1:00:15.760 interesting book, um, And the story, like the journey this 1:00:15.880 --> 1:00:18.840 kind of family goes on realizing like what the Nazis 1:00:18.880 --> 1:00:22.560 are in the perspective of that. It's it's very well written. Um, 1:00:22.720 --> 1:00:26.080 it's very detailed. I really enjoyed it. The thing that 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:28.480 I liked the most was the detail it goes into 1:00:28.600 --> 1:00:31.960 about the kind of the fates of because it's it's 1:00:32.000 --> 1:00:34.880 a more you know, obviously as much of a nerd 1:00:35.040 --> 1:00:37.520 on the history of fascism as I am, I've read 1:00:37.520 --> 1:00:39.560 a lot about the Night of Long Knives. This did 1:00:39.560 --> 1:00:41.560 the best job of kind of going into detail about 1:00:41.600 --> 1:00:44.040 the kind of dudes who the dudes who were purged 1:00:44.080 --> 1:00:45.720 in the Night of Long Knives. So these guys who 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:49.400 were Nazis, and that they wore swastikas and they were 1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:52.600 part of the party and whatnot, but also weren't Nazis 1:00:52.960 --> 1:00:55.680 enough to not get purged and in a lot of 1:00:55.760 --> 1:00:58.840 cases were like starting to fall out of love with 1:00:58.960 --> 1:01:01.120 the party when the Night Long Knives had And so 1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:05.760 it's these it's really interesting, UM and I recommend it 1:01:05.840 --> 1:01:08.800 to people. And the last book I started in the 1:01:08.840 --> 1:01:11.680 first book I finished in two was called Ministry of 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:16.000 the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson, who is UM an 1:01:16.040 --> 1:01:19.720 interesting science fiction author, in part because Ministry of the 1:01:19.760 --> 1:01:22.240 Future is about climate change. UM. It is a a 1:01:22.400 --> 1:01:28.120 science fiction look at about like a thousand different potential 1:01:28.600 --> 1:01:31.800 solutions to climate change. And Kim Stanley Robinson is actually 1:01:31.920 --> 1:01:34.959 like an expert UM. He works for the Sierra Center. 1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:36.960 I think it's called UM. He's won a bunch of 1:01:37.000 --> 1:01:41.280 awards for his work on like trying to like posit 1:01:41.360 --> 1:01:44.360 different solutions to climate change. He's he he understand he's 1:01:44.400 --> 1:01:46.480 not like coming at this from the perspective of an 1:01:46.520 --> 1:01:49.480 even even a well researched author. He's he's writing from 1:01:49.480 --> 1:01:52.080 the perspective of someone who is an actual scientific expert 1:01:52.360 --> 1:01:55.320 in what happens and how the different solutions might work. 1:01:55.480 --> 1:01:58.240 And the thing that's really interesting about Ministry of the 1:01:58.320 --> 1:02:03.120 Future is it's this fascinating melange of UM. Like a 1:02:03.440 --> 1:02:05.840 number of the character the Ministry of the Future is 1:02:05.920 --> 1:02:09.520 this kind of hypothetical new u N agency that's put 1:02:09.600 --> 1:02:13.360 in place after a horrible wet bulb heat event kills 1:02:13.440 --> 1:02:17.320 twenty million people in India UM, and they're they're kind 1:02:17.360 --> 1:02:21.560 of trying to push for very technocratic solutions to climate change. So, 1:02:21.680 --> 1:02:23.680 like one of the big things the book focuses on 1:02:23.760 --> 1:02:25.800 a lot is this idea of a climate coin, which 1:02:25.880 --> 1:02:31.160 is a kind of UM international backed by banks cryptocurrency 1:02:31.400 --> 1:02:34.880 that that pays as a kind of long term bond 1:02:35.400 --> 1:02:39.720 for sequestering carbon, so that like countries like Saudi Arabia 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:42.600 that have huge oil reserves actually make more money by 1:02:42.720 --> 1:02:45.440 refusing to pump out oil and thus get paid in 1:02:45.480 --> 1:02:48.440 these coins. So it's really technocratic solutions like that. And 1:02:48.520 --> 1:02:52.080 then also terrorist groups that may be funded by this 1:02:52.280 --> 1:02:55.360 UN agency building fleets of drones to murder people on 1:02:55.440 --> 1:02:58.880 commercial air flights UM in mass in order to cripple 1:02:58.920 --> 1:03:02.160 the entire air travel industry and stop carbon emission and 1:03:02.320 --> 1:03:06.480 carrying out mass assassinations on like CEOs of of oil 1:03:07.240 --> 1:03:09.760 companies living in their private island. So it's this really 1:03:09.880 --> 1:03:13.360 interesting mix of like kind of liberal politicians and like 1:03:13.520 --> 1:03:16.760 bankers like working out these very wonky solutions to things, 1:03:16.880 --> 1:03:20.560 and like terrorists who have lost people in climate emergencies 1:03:20.680 --> 1:03:24.800 mass murdering um billionaires uh and and so it's it's 1:03:24.800 --> 1:03:28.240 a very it's the widest possible ranging look at kind 1:03:28.280 --> 1:03:31.960 of different solutions to climate change and how they might work. 1:03:31.960 --> 1:03:35.160 And it's a very optimistic book. Um. And there's there's 1:03:35.280 --> 1:03:37.160 elements of it that I kind of the optimism I 1:03:37.240 --> 1:03:40.760 kind of disagree with. I think oddly enough Kim doesn't 1:03:40.960 --> 1:03:45.120 give enough weight to the dangers of authoritarian populism and 1:03:45.360 --> 1:03:47.160 and the threat I think they present to any of 1:03:47.240 --> 1:03:50.040 these kind of potential solutions. But it's still a very 1:03:50.120 --> 1:03:52.960 well thought out look at climate change and I think 1:03:53.200 --> 1:03:56.880 really worth reading um if you want something that will 1:03:56.920 --> 1:03:59.960 both bring up different because he also goes into a 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:03.560 lot of like very scientific solutions like pumping up water 1:04:03.760 --> 1:04:07.200 from underneath glaciers in order to stop glaciers from sliding, 1:04:07.280 --> 1:04:09.200 and like slow the rate of melt and all these 1:04:09.440 --> 1:04:12.720 these other kind of like very much like, technical, here's 1:04:12.760 --> 1:04:15.120 a thing that we can do that will reduce the 1:04:15.200 --> 1:04:18.640 effect of this specific um kind of climate change. It's 1:04:18.680 --> 1:04:22.480 really a very good book. Um and it's apparently was 1:04:22.560 --> 1:04:25.440 Barack Obama's favorite book of the year, which, considering the 1:04:25.560 --> 1:04:29.640 degree which it talks about murdering politicians and business leaders, 1:04:30.160 --> 1:04:33.000 is interesting to me. I think he was maybe more 1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:36.400 paying attention to the carbon coins stuff than the shooting 1:04:36.840 --> 1:04:40.320 oil industry executives in their face while they're sleeping. Well, 1:04:40.440 --> 1:04:45.200 he was also a fan of parasite, so he may 1:04:45.280 --> 1:04:46.880 just have been told this is a book you should 1:04:46.880 --> 1:04:48.520 say you like, but it is. It is a very 1:04:48.560 --> 1:04:51.720 good book. It is really worth reading. Um and it's 1:04:51.800 --> 1:04:54.640 it's it is a work of science fiction. But honestly 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:59.800 it's like it's also it's well again, Kim really understands 1:04:59.840 --> 1:05:01.920 his from a technical level, so I think it's pretty 1:05:01.960 --> 1:05:04.840 unimpeachable from that point of view. There are some kind 1:05:04.880 --> 1:05:09.760 of sociological areas where I don't think the book. I 1:05:10.160 --> 1:05:14.480 think there's some ship missing, particularly as regards the problems 1:05:14.480 --> 1:05:17.640 authoritarianism is going to cause in reaching for these solutions. 1:05:17.680 --> 1:05:20.640 But I think it's still really really valuable. And Chris, 1:05:20.800 --> 1:05:26.000 we're going to hear your responses. But first capitalism, Chris 1:05:27.920 --> 1:05:33.160 reading reading a few things, Um reading more Chuang, which 1:05:33.240 --> 1:05:36.520 is a theoretical journal about China that writes a lot 1:05:36.560 --> 1:05:40.280 of very very good stuff. They have probably the best 1:05:40.280 --> 1:05:43.720 account I've ever seen of just what was going on 1:05:44.200 --> 1:05:46.360 during the socialist period and then also the sort of 1:05:46.400 --> 1:05:49.000 transition to capitalism. Those are those are Those are issues 1:05:49.040 --> 1:05:51.120 one and two, And they just published an issue about 1:05:52.840 --> 1:05:56.080 basically how the pandemic response happens in China. It's it's 1:05:56.080 --> 1:06:00.520 absolutely fascinating. Um. It's also about sort of is this 1:06:00.600 --> 1:06:02.440 something that yeah, I've I've talked about a lot of 1:06:02.440 --> 1:06:04.720 their stuff on the show, sort of obliquely or directly, 1:06:04.840 --> 1:06:06.560 but like, you know, one of one of the big 1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:09.120 things is about how, in a lot of ways, the 1:06:09.160 --> 1:06:11.200 pandemic reveals the sort of weakness of the Chinese state 1:06:11.280 --> 1:06:15.440 and in a way that you know it is you 1:06:15.560 --> 1:06:18.480 don't see really because both both you know, both the 1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:20.320 Chinese state and the sort of like American media have 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:23.600 this vested interest in showing like China's is sort of 1:06:23.680 --> 1:06:25.960 like all powerful authoritarian police state or whatever, like the 1:06:26.320 --> 1:06:28.960 miliar image of it is like this isn't but you 1:06:29.040 --> 1:06:33.160 know what, what you really see is that like this, 1:06:33.320 --> 1:06:35.560 the state has a very strong ability to intervene in 1:06:35.720 --> 1:06:38.080 like one province at a time, and they can you 1:06:38.120 --> 1:06:39.760 know when when when they focus, when they focus all 1:06:39.760 --> 1:06:42.360 of the sort of administrative power on like one area, right, 1:06:42.400 --> 1:06:45.880 they're extremely effective. They can't really do it in you know, 1:06:46.200 --> 1:06:47.840 multiplayers at the same time. And this means that you're 1:06:47.880 --> 1:06:49.800 dealing with all these sort of regional government stuff and 1:06:50.000 --> 1:06:55.400 it's it's very interesting. The the other thing that I have, well, okay, 1:06:55.440 --> 1:06:58.880 so do do we want to talk like a little 1:06:58.880 --> 1:07:00.560 bit about dawn of everything or do you want to 1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:03.600 save that for just like yeah, I I'm down to 1:07:03.640 --> 1:07:06.600 talk about that at any point. Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely 1:07:06.640 --> 1:07:09.280 on my list. That is a long one that's less 1:07:09.280 --> 1:07:11.120 of a read I think where most people are going 1:07:11.160 --> 1:07:12.640 to be less of a read in one sweep than 1:07:12.680 --> 1:07:15.960 like maybe for over the course of the year, like gradually. Yeah. 1:07:16.320 --> 1:07:19.480 It's very very dense and very long, but very readable. 1:07:19.560 --> 1:07:21.800 Like not to say that it's like dense in the 1:07:22.920 --> 1:07:26.240 I gotta like slog through this textbook. It's extremely readable. 1:07:26.280 --> 1:07:28.360 It's just like there's a lot in there, and you're 1:07:28.360 --> 1:07:32.080 gonna want to pause and think about ship. Yeah, so 1:07:32.240 --> 1:07:34.200 so they don't have everything is this is the last 1:07:34.200 --> 1:07:37.880 book David Graeber ever wrote, and it's David wen Grow 1:07:37.920 --> 1:07:43.680 also they wrote it together, and it's it's this basically 1:07:43.680 --> 1:07:51.560 an attempt to reassemble I guess, early human history. And 1:07:52.040 --> 1:07:56.080 but the thing that they're doing that that's that's really 1:07:56.280 --> 1:08:01.240 unique is that so they they're David one Grows as 1:08:02.040 --> 1:08:04.920 archaeologist David Graeber's and an apologists and they're they're going there, 1:08:04.960 --> 1:08:06.120 you know. So they spent a whole bunch of time 1:08:06.160 --> 1:08:09.960 going through the sort of early archaeological records, and what 1:08:10.120 --> 1:08:14.920 they find basically is that none of the things that 1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:19.679 you see make any sense at all unless you're willing 1:08:19.800 --> 1:08:24.880 to unless you're willing to accept that people you know, 1:08:26.400 --> 1:08:27.800 years ago, and then even you know, people like four 1:08:27.880 --> 1:08:31.120 hive thousand years ago, we're as smart as we are 1:08:31.760 --> 1:08:34.919 and have the have the capacity to recreate and redesign 1:08:34.960 --> 1:08:38.679 their own political arrangements selfconsciously, which is something that doesn't 1:08:38.720 --> 1:08:43.280 sound that weird, except everyone assumes that they can't, and 1:08:43.400 --> 1:08:45.479 that you know, everyone that's you know, one of the 1:08:45.520 --> 1:08:48.280 other things that they're they're really sort of heavily doing 1:08:48.360 --> 1:08:52.840 here is trying to break this idea that you know, 1:08:53.800 --> 1:08:56.280 human society sort of evolves in these this linear progression. 1:08:56.320 --> 1:08:57.599 You know, you start out with like these small hunter 1:08:57.680 --> 1:09:00.320 gatherer bands and they get more complex quote on quote, 1:09:00.880 --> 1:09:03.160 eventually the developed farming, and farming developed the state. And 1:09:03.240 --> 1:09:04.880 the answer is just, you know, when you look through 1:09:04.880 --> 1:09:08.519 the actual archaeological record, none of this is true. You have, 1:09:08.720 --> 1:09:10.840 you know, they have a lot of very interesting sort 1:09:10.840 --> 1:09:14.679 of historical examples of this, looking at like what looked 1:09:14.680 --> 1:09:17.320 like incredibly democratic and egalitarian cities, and then you know, 1:09:17.360 --> 1:09:19.200 on the outskirts of those cities you have the emergence 1:09:19.240 --> 1:09:22.000 of the states among the things that look like states 1:09:22.040 --> 1:09:25.519 among barbarian groups. And they have and what I think 1:09:25.600 --> 1:09:27.600 is maybe the most interesting part of it is that 1:09:27.840 --> 1:09:31.160 they're they're very concerned with the question of human freedom, 1:09:31.800 --> 1:09:35.519 but freedom in a way that like we don't like 1:09:36.800 --> 1:09:39.200 freedom on a level fundamental enough that like we can 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:41.920 barely imagine it. So they have these things called the 1:09:41.960 --> 1:09:44.600 Three freedoms, which is one of them is so the 1:09:44.720 --> 1:09:47.560 first one is the freedom just move to leave and 1:09:47.640 --> 1:09:51.200 to it's it's the freedom to to you know, be 1:09:51.280 --> 1:09:53.160 in a place and then leave and know that you 1:09:53.200 --> 1:09:57.000 will be cared for when you get to wherever you're going. Yeah, 1:09:57.120 --> 1:09:59.240 these kind of networks that were set up so that 1:09:59.360 --> 1:10:02.040 people could travel that have like the descendant of those 1:10:02.120 --> 1:10:04.200 ideas is sort of the way if you ever if 1:10:04.240 --> 1:10:06.280 you've ever spent time in the Middle East, not in 1:10:06.400 --> 1:10:09.280 like hotels and ship like it's that same idea that 1:10:09.439 --> 1:10:13.600 kind of deeper than religious belief about the importance of 1:10:13.760 --> 1:10:16.519 that has gotten added to like Islam and into a 1:10:16.600 --> 1:10:18.920 number of other faiths in the area. Like, but this 1:10:19.120 --> 1:10:22.400 idea that like there's nothing more sacred than taking care 1:10:22.479 --> 1:10:25.800 of a of a guest um like and and how 1:10:25.920 --> 1:10:29.280 that that that existed to enable kind of a sort 1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:33.599 of cross cultural contract and contact and like recreational travel 1:10:34.040 --> 1:10:36.080 in a way that I think it would be deeply 1:10:36.160 --> 1:10:39.639 surprising to people who just sort of assumed everyone before 1:10:39.680 --> 1:10:42.599 a certain age died within five miles of their house 1:10:42.800 --> 1:10:44.880 or was you know, yeah, part of a band of 1:10:45.000 --> 1:10:47.760 wandering hunters. Yeah. And it's interesting in that like, like, 1:10:48.040 --> 1:10:50.240 like we we in a lot of ways travel less 1:10:50.320 --> 1:10:52.560 than early people did, because you know, people would just 1:10:52.680 --> 1:10:55.080 leave and people, you know, people just didn't like their 1:10:55.080 --> 1:10:57.280 families and so they'd walk like five miles and they 1:10:57.320 --> 1:11:00.320 they'd come to a place and they'd be accepted. And yeah, 1:11:00.360 --> 1:11:01.840 and you know, and like the second one that I 1:11:01.880 --> 1:11:04.920 think is the one that is the one we have 1:11:05.120 --> 1:11:07.320 the least capacity, I think to understand, which is just 1:11:07.640 --> 1:11:11.560 the ability to disobey orders. Just like anyone tells you 1:11:11.600 --> 1:11:14.000 do something, you could just tell them know at any time. 1:11:14.160 --> 1:11:15.840 And it's not only can you just tell them no, 1:11:16.920 --> 1:11:19.400 Like the social expectation is that you is that you 1:11:19.520 --> 1:11:21.720 don't act, is that it's it's it's it's not just 1:11:21.840 --> 1:11:23.120 that you have the ability to do it. It's that 1:11:23.880 --> 1:11:26.200 someone giving you an order is treated as weird. And 1:11:26.280 --> 1:11:29.680 this is a thing that you know, like like this, 1:11:29.880 --> 1:11:31.599 this is the thing. This is a freedom that used 1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:34.080 to exist and no longer does and what sort of 1:11:34.160 --> 1:11:36.160 destroying various ways along with sort of the the third 1:11:36.200 --> 1:11:38.880 freedom to talk about, which is about how people have 1:11:39.000 --> 1:11:41.479 the right to sort of just shift and recreate their 1:11:41.640 --> 1:11:46.280 their social political arrangements. And yeah, and people used to 1:11:46.360 --> 1:11:48.400 do this sort of I mean people, you know, a 1:11:48.479 --> 1:11:50.200 lot of the what their early part of the book 1:11:50.240 --> 1:11:53.120 is about is about how societies you there's a lot 1:11:53.120 --> 1:11:55.000 of societies that would you know, flip seasonally, right, so 1:11:55.080 --> 1:11:56.920 what like one half of the year you have this 1:11:57.040 --> 1:11:59.320 just like absolutelytatorship. The other half of the year it's like, 1:11:59.400 --> 1:12:02.920 well it's looks hippie commune. And you know, the fact 1:12:02.960 --> 1:12:05.640 that we do not like the fact that like we 1:12:05.840 --> 1:12:09.719 we we just don't like it, cannot conceive of completely 1:12:09.720 --> 1:12:14.280 shifting our political arrangements like that is It's also there's 1:12:14.320 --> 1:12:18.920 this fascinating discussion of like the fact that and this 1:12:19.040 --> 1:12:21.320 is kind of counter to what I I had always 1:12:21.400 --> 1:12:24.240 kind of thought that like once as a group groups 1:12:24.240 --> 1:12:26.400 of people when they when they made the decision to 1:12:26.520 --> 1:12:30.639 like move to agriculture um and like set founded cities, 1:12:31.000 --> 1:12:33.120 that it was kind of a one way street, you know, 1:12:33.360 --> 1:12:35.639 you you just keep going along that road. And there's 1:12:35.640 --> 1:12:38.960 actually multiple examples of people's like this is what what 1:12:39.040 --> 1:12:41.600 happened to the British Aisles, or at least in what 1:12:41.840 --> 1:12:46.840 is currently Great Britain. People's like developing agriculture, settling down 1:12:46.880 --> 1:12:48.479 and then being like oh, you know what, fuck this 1:12:48.840 --> 1:12:51.400 and like going back like that that should should happen 1:12:51.439 --> 1:12:53.559 all the time. And and one of the things that's 1:12:53.600 --> 1:12:57.360 really kind of optimistic about the vision of of the 1:12:57.439 --> 1:13:00.120 sweep of human history in the dawn of everything is 1:13:00.160 --> 1:13:02.880 the idea that like, no, we don't have to keep 1:13:03.400 --> 1:13:06.160 like it's not inevitable that we just keep doing more 1:13:06.240 --> 1:13:09.160 of what we're doing now. All throughout history, large groups 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:11.400 of people have been like, it's time to let's do 1:13:11.520 --> 1:13:14.160 something else, let's make a radical change, like it happens, 1:13:14.920 --> 1:13:18.040 um And it's probably more normal to do that than 1:13:18.120 --> 1:13:19.960 it is to do what we've been doing. And when 1:13:20.000 --> 1:13:21.720 you I think one of the things that kind of 1:13:22.840 --> 1:13:24.080 one of the things that leads to the sense of 1:13:24.120 --> 1:13:26.800 inevitability of development along the lines that we have is 1:13:27.000 --> 1:13:28.599 is the fact that we only really have about ten 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:33.760 thousand years of even vaguely reliable like data um or 1:13:33.840 --> 1:13:37.519 vaguely comprehensive data on human history. But people have been 1:13:37.560 --> 1:13:40.160 around for tens of thousands of years longer than that, 1:13:40.360 --> 1:13:42.360 and for most of it we've been a lot more 1:13:42.439 --> 1:13:45.959 experimental than we are now. And it's it's always possible 1:13:46.479 --> 1:13:49.640 for people to try different things in a way that 1:13:49.960 --> 1:13:54.160 um maybe seems impossible to us now but but necessarily 1:13:54.200 --> 1:13:57.360 won't for our kids. Oh yeah, The last thing I 1:13:57.400 --> 1:13:59.200 would tell people to listen to if they're looking for 1:13:59.240 --> 1:14:02.880 a fictional optimistic thing is Corey Doctors walk Away. Um, 1:14:03.880 --> 1:14:06.519 give it a read. And if you're if you're looking 1:14:06.600 --> 1:14:10.880 for like a like a beautiful like not to get 1:14:10.960 --> 1:14:12.960 your head out of the One of the things I'm 1:14:13.040 --> 1:14:16.000 really passionate about is plants. And I have this beautiful 1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:19.680 book called the Planet Pedia and it's really helpful for 1:14:19.800 --> 1:14:22.040 caring for your house plants. And it's just like aesthetically 1:14:22.160 --> 1:14:25.040 just so. The photographs are beautiful and it's one of 1:14:25.120 --> 1:14:28.040 my favorite things to give friends and family. To check 1:14:28.120 --> 1:14:30.840 that one out as well. Another another plant book that 1:14:30.960 --> 1:14:33.600 I just got for somebody that I really like. I 1:14:33.640 --> 1:14:36.839 think it's called Wicked Plants. It's about all the poises 1:14:36.920 --> 1:14:40.040 plants that you can get, um and the ones all 1:14:40.120 --> 1:14:42.200 the like the poison plants you can cultivate in your 1:14:42.240 --> 1:14:45.439 own garden. And that's been a lovely read. Um, And 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:48.000 I do hope to set up a decent poison garden 1:14:48.360 --> 1:14:52.400 here in the spring. So yeah, me too. It's going 1:14:52.439 --> 1:14:56.080 to be great. Well, let's get to another question. Um, 1:14:58.000 --> 1:15:00.640 do you guys want like a fluff question or like 1:15:00.760 --> 1:15:04.400 a real question? Uh, let's do a fluff one and 1:15:04.439 --> 1:15:07.479 we can start the next episode with a real juicy 1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:12.000 fluff me daddy. All right, Okay, that's a little gift 1:15:12.080 --> 1:15:18.519 to all of you at home. On the topic of hobbies, 1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:22.120 so so I just Garrison likes poisonous plants. I like 1:15:22.280 --> 1:15:26.360 non poisonous plants. Uh, what hobbies are you into that 1:15:26.520 --> 1:15:32.519 we may not know about? Um? I guess I can 1:15:32.600 --> 1:15:36.320 only say one thing here. Really, well, I don't know. Yeah, 1:15:36.360 --> 1:15:38.599 you should be really careful about how you answer this one. 1:15:40.000 --> 1:15:44.160 I know what your hobbies are. Let's have everyone else 1:15:44.200 --> 1:15:48.360 go first. UM. I just got into three D printing. 1:15:48.479 --> 1:15:50.160 I'm currently trying to figure out how to get a 1:15:50.280 --> 1:15:54.960 BS to act adhere properly. Yeah, that was the problem 1:15:55.040 --> 1:15:57.120 I had with my printer is that it would I 1:15:57.160 --> 1:15:59.519 would get like a decent way through the first part 1:15:59.560 --> 1:16:02.000 of the print, and then part of it would cut 1:16:02.040 --> 1:16:04.280 curl off, so then it wouldn't print the next layer 1:16:04.400 --> 1:16:06.840 on correctly. Then it must up the print. And yeah, 1:16:07.280 --> 1:16:10.439 I was between mental health stuff and that at the time. 1:16:10.439 --> 1:16:12.559 I was s today on my printer. This is when 1:16:12.600 --> 1:16:14.920 I just gave up because it was too much. So 1:16:15.040 --> 1:16:18.439 I'll be excited to see how you get past this turtle. Well, 1:16:18.520 --> 1:16:21.040 I've I've got a glass bed coming in so I'm 1:16:21.040 --> 1:16:25.000 gonna have Yeah, and I've I've got the enclosure. One 1:16:25.040 --> 1:16:27.000 of the issues I'm having is just that I'm having 1:16:27.040 --> 1:16:29.160 a heating issue with the bed. It won't heat up. 1:16:29.320 --> 1:16:31.439 It stops before it gets to one tin, which is 1:16:31.479 --> 1:16:33.040 what it should be able to go up that high. 1:16:33.080 --> 1:16:37.719 But it's just, yeah, can you manually heat it up hotter? 1:16:39.040 --> 1:16:41.519 It doesn't seem to matter. It doesn't seem to matter 1:16:41.600 --> 1:16:43.639 if I if I said it, like I can't obviously, 1:16:43.760 --> 1:16:45.400 like you can. You can set it up to heat, 1:16:45.439 --> 1:16:47.639 but it just keeps I keep getting that like loud 1:16:47.800 --> 1:16:50.400 error beep. So there's like there's this is going to 1:16:50.479 --> 1:16:52.960 be it's going to be a process of jiggering to 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:56.080 to to figure it out. Um, but you can come 1:16:56.240 --> 1:16:59.320 pretty fun. Yeah, I have, I have, I've I have 1:16:59.439 --> 1:17:01.760 a similar problem with my setup right now that I've 1:17:01.840 --> 1:17:04.400 been trying to troubleshoot for the half a year. Um, 1:17:04.800 --> 1:17:07.559 I can manually control the heat bed and it does 1:17:07.680 --> 1:17:10.400 get that hot. But still I think it may just 1:17:10.479 --> 1:17:12.320 be a leveling issue. I may need to like clean 1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:14.920 the bed. I also should have talked to someone who 1:17:14.960 --> 1:17:19.200 has done more three D printing than me. Um, But yeah, yeah, 1:17:19.360 --> 1:17:21.720 but it's it's it's fun. I I enjoy it. It's 1:17:21.800 --> 1:17:24.360 very it's radically different from the stuff that I like 1:17:24.520 --> 1:17:27.799 do for a living um, which is always my favorite 1:17:27.880 --> 1:17:31.080 thing for like a a task to engage in in 1:17:31.240 --> 1:17:33.640 order to be relaxing, because it's it's not at all 1:17:33.760 --> 1:17:38.040 like reading and writing. No, it's very different. It's very different. 1:17:38.120 --> 1:17:40.120 So so far, I'm enjoying it. And I already I 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:41.920 printed the thing I need to do to make the 1:17:43.240 --> 1:17:48.040 the bio um, the bio lab for like the Four 1:17:48.160 --> 1:17:50.280 Thieves stuff. If you want to check out our episode 1:17:50.360 --> 1:17:53.680 with Michael from the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective. I've three 1:17:53.760 --> 1:17:56.040 D printed that part, so I'm ready to get the 1:17:56.120 --> 1:17:59.000 other parts and put that thing together. Um, I'm just 1:17:59.040 --> 1:18:00.920 trying to figure out how to print other stuff with 1:18:01.040 --> 1:18:04.240 better plastics and whatnot. But yeah, it's it's fun. So far, 1:18:04.360 --> 1:18:08.200 I'm I'm enjoying it a lot. Um. Maybe I'll get bored, 1:18:08.479 --> 1:18:11.000 Maybe I'll wind up spending way too much money on 1:18:11.040 --> 1:18:13.120 different three D printers, like the ones that lift the 1:18:13.200 --> 1:18:17.640 goo out of the resin printers are there. They's so 1:18:18.000 --> 1:18:21.080 they're much like this is what this is what Corey 1:18:21.120 --> 1:18:23.320 Doctor was talking about. Like, like they are much better 1:18:23.439 --> 1:18:26.000 at the filament printers in a lot of ways, but 1:18:26.120 --> 1:18:29.880 a lot of like a lot of the stuff. A 1:18:29.960 --> 1:18:32.800 lot of the really useful machines that you can make 1:18:32.880 --> 1:18:35.960 with three printers require you to use filaments right now, um, 1:18:36.360 --> 1:18:39.680 but the resin ones are like so much more elegant. 1:18:40.000 --> 1:18:42.800 They're beautiful. Um. I also am really interested in the 1:18:42.880 --> 1:18:45.839 idea of printing would which I did not realize until recently, 1:18:45.920 --> 1:18:48.679 you could do but it's absolutely possible with certain kinds 1:18:48.720 --> 1:18:52.840 of printers. Um, And that seems pretty dope. So I 1:18:52.880 --> 1:18:55.640 don't know. We'll see how. Maybe I'll be tired of 1:18:55.680 --> 1:18:57.880 it in a month because my mental health will take 1:18:57.880 --> 1:19:03.559 a dive, But so far I'm pretty excited. Cool Chris, 1:19:04.479 --> 1:19:07.799 what do I do? Well? Okay, so before the pandemic, 1:19:07.840 --> 1:19:12.080 I was getting into rock climbing, but unfortunately, like like 1:19:12.160 --> 1:19:13.920 I like rock climbing, I'm not like, oh, it's like 1:19:14.000 --> 1:19:16.320 the best thing you can do for it's a lot 1:19:16.400 --> 1:19:20.519 of fun, but unfortunately, I mean it's not like the 1:19:20.720 --> 1:19:24.320 worst pandemic thing you could possibly do, but like it's 1:19:24.600 --> 1:19:27.719 no if you get up high enough on the rocks, 1:19:27.840 --> 1:19:32.240 COVID can't get up there. It's like the opposite of 1:19:32.280 --> 1:19:36.400 a bear. It's really bad at climbing. Yes, so I 1:19:36.439 --> 1:19:39.920 guess the other what do I even do? Is okay? 1:19:40.000 --> 1:19:43.080 So my other thing? Okay, so it's so deep, like 1:19:44.120 --> 1:19:46.400 deep Twitter lure. People will probably know this about me, 1:19:46.560 --> 1:19:48.960 But I am I have been for a very very 1:19:49.080 --> 1:19:53.280 long time, like an inveterate fan of competitive StarCraft two. Okay, 1:19:55.320 --> 1:19:57.920 I am awful at it, Like I am terrible at 1:19:57.960 --> 1:20:01.720 that game. But I have watched so much StarCraft two, 1:20:01.800 --> 1:20:04.560 like I I StarCraft two has become enough of my 1:20:04.680 --> 1:20:08.040 life that like like the game was part of my 1:20:08.200 --> 1:20:14.120 radicalization process, like so, yeah, I wake up extremely early 1:20:14.280 --> 1:20:16.680 or stay up extremely late and watched Korean StarCraft two 1:20:16.840 --> 1:20:19.320 and non Korean StarCraft two, and yeah, it's it's a 1:20:19.360 --> 1:20:24.000 good time. It's I My favorite thing about StarCraft in 1:20:24.080 --> 1:20:27.920 general is thinking about the fact that Blizzard was initially 1:20:27.960 --> 1:20:31.000 trying to make a Warhammer for video game and games 1:20:31.040 --> 1:20:34.200 Workshop was as always too paranoid of their I p 1:20:34.479 --> 1:20:37.080 to let it happen, and thus lost how many god 1:20:37.200 --> 1:20:39.000 knows how many. They would be worth more money than 1:20:39.080 --> 1:20:44.320 most countries like that been printing an impossible amount of money, 1:20:44.960 --> 1:20:51.439 like Indie Chambers would have been able to buy a 1:20:51.600 --> 1:20:57.639 mountain of cocaine to live inside. But but no, instead 1:20:57.720 --> 1:21:01.360 we got all of the infrastructure of modern esports. Mm hm, 1:21:02.120 --> 1:21:04.920 which it seems fine, like it's whatever, I don't care, 1:21:05.080 --> 1:21:07.559 but it is very funny to me that they were like, nah, 1:21:07.840 --> 1:21:11.520 this doesn't seem like a good financial decision for games Workshop, 1:21:12.479 --> 1:21:16.439 this StarCraft thing, Like I wonder like that. That's the 1:21:16.520 --> 1:21:17.880 kind of thing where it's like, if they made that 1:21:18.000 --> 1:21:20.960 much money, would they all just retire? Like well, I 1:21:21.040 --> 1:21:23.880 mean it's a publicly traded company, like the stock the 1:21:24.000 --> 1:21:28.639 shareholders would have made a fortune and the but yeah, 1:21:28.720 --> 1:21:30.640 I I don't know. It's very it's very funny that 1:21:30.720 --> 1:21:32.479 they didn't think that was going to be worth it. 1:21:33.600 --> 1:21:35.400 Let's see in terms of how these people may not know. 1:21:35.960 --> 1:21:39.600 I do really like cooking. I take cooking classes for 1:21:39.720 --> 1:21:43.360 a long time. Um that's been the main cook in 1:21:43.400 --> 1:21:45.960 my family since I was a very little kid, so 1:21:46.240 --> 1:21:50.439 I definitely definitely enjoy that. Um. I did go to 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:52.320 film school for a few years. I want to get 1:21:52.360 --> 1:21:57.720 back into making short video projects. Have been writing some 1:21:58.000 --> 1:22:02.519 random kind of new weird esque stuff that I would 1:22:02.560 --> 1:22:05.759 love to like rent a studio space and actually shoot 1:22:05.880 --> 1:22:10.080 some silly things in the next year and throw them 1:22:10.160 --> 1:22:13.599 up online just for kind of my own fun. Um. 1:22:14.080 --> 1:22:18.920 And then I also been still doing random occultism stuff. Um, 1:22:19.320 --> 1:22:26.120 that's kind of how I feel my time. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. 1:22:26.280 --> 1:22:28.439 I think that's an answer. That is an answer. We 1:22:28.560 --> 1:22:32.719 did it. That's an answer, and more importantly, that's an episode. 1:22:33.360 --> 1:22:36.000 That is an episode, that is an answer, that is 1:22:36.120 --> 1:22:38.760 a single content. You all got a content out of us, 1:22:38.800 --> 1:22:43.160 and will be proud of yourselves, replicate and reproduce another 1:22:43.320 --> 1:22:47.240 content tomorrow that's more eased to your cues. So a 1:22:47.400 --> 1:22:51.320 content every day except for the weekends, because that's the 1:22:51.360 --> 1:23:09.920 problem that we make in some holidays. Welcome back to 1:23:10.160 --> 1:23:13.360 it could happen here the podcast where Jay your Boltonaro 1:23:13.520 --> 1:23:15.479 was once again in the hospital getting all of the 1:23:15.560 --> 1:23:25.559 feats sucked out of his in the hospital. The most 1:23:25.680 --> 1:23:29.439 consistently dying man in the world. You know what, this 1:23:29.680 --> 1:23:33.000 man in history, you know actually literally full of ship again. 1:23:33.640 --> 1:23:37.720 You know what? You know what this means. It approximately 1:23:38.680 --> 1:23:42.560 three four weeks Stephen Crowder is going to get some 1:23:42.800 --> 1:23:45.280 horrible illness. And if we said to the hospitals, well, 1:23:47.520 --> 1:23:51.680 this cycle, this is the only like the cycle. My 1:23:51.800 --> 1:23:53.760 hope for both of them is that they find out 1:23:53.840 --> 1:23:56.519 that each has an obscure disease that can only be 1:23:56.880 --> 1:23:59.200 cured by piping ship from the other into them, and 1:23:59.280 --> 1:24:01.800 so they just hook m via a tube and they're 1:24:01.800 --> 1:24:03.880 just sucking poop out of each of them and putting 1:24:03.920 --> 1:24:07.120 it into the other person. That would be very funny hot, 1:24:07.280 --> 1:24:10.519 All right, what's our first question? Our first question? So 1:24:10.560 --> 1:24:13.000 this was specifically addressed to Chris, so Chris, you can 1:24:13.040 --> 1:24:14.760 answer first, But I think this is a question for 1:24:15.200 --> 1:24:18.240 for everyone. Really, what is your favorite piece of history 1:24:18.400 --> 1:24:20.560 that you haven't been able to talk about yet on 1:24:20.680 --> 1:24:26.120 the show that isn't deserving of a whole episode? Favorite 1:24:26.200 --> 1:24:30.320 piece of I mean, we ain't talked about the Zapatista 1:24:30.320 --> 1:24:34.480 as yet because I don't I don't yet feel comfortable, 1:24:34.880 --> 1:24:37.960 uh with with my level of knowledge there. But it's 1:24:38.000 --> 1:24:42.080 definitely history that's extremely relevant to the kind of ship 1:24:42.200 --> 1:24:48.120 we talked about on the show. Have I talked about 1:24:48.160 --> 1:24:51.160 the water and gas Wars o Bolivia on the show? 1:24:52.600 --> 1:24:54.360 We've talked about that at all? Either? Yeah? I mean, 1:24:54.360 --> 1:24:56.160 I thought, I mean that that probably is deserving of 1:24:56.240 --> 1:24:59.040 its own episode, but absolutely a bunch of people just 1:24:59.400 --> 1:25:02.200 literally like blocking every road in an entire country and 1:25:02.280 --> 1:25:04.679 starving out the ruling class because they can't like import 1:25:04.720 --> 1:25:06.920 food into the city because they've blocked every single road. 1:25:07.640 --> 1:25:13.880 Extremely cool, I guess in terms of like really short, 1:25:14.040 --> 1:25:18.400 not deserving of its own episode. I don't know either, 1:25:18.479 --> 1:25:21.880 because I've I've been able to elongate all my periods 1:25:21.960 --> 1:25:24.160 into episodes. Yeah, I don't know that there's anything we 1:25:24.200 --> 1:25:26.600 wouldn't cover. There's certainly things we haven't covered yet for 1:25:26.680 --> 1:25:29.559 a variety of reasons, often just like I don't feel 1:25:29.600 --> 1:25:32.160 like we've had the time to work. There's a lot 1:25:32.240 --> 1:25:34.679 of work. Yeah, it's like why why haven't why haven't 1:25:34.720 --> 1:25:36.360 we done a MAO episodes? Like do you know how 1:25:36.479 --> 1:25:39.760 much ship that motherfucker got in his life? I have 1:25:39.920 --> 1:25:44.120 been like mentally, like psychologically preparing myself to start working 1:25:44.200 --> 1:25:48.880 on MAOT like this is a ah, that's that? Actually, No, 1:25:50.040 --> 1:25:53.599 it's the Mango Colts. It's definitely the Mango Colts. Did 1:25:53.640 --> 1:25:55.600 you did you did you know about this? No? The 1:25:55.800 --> 1:25:59.560 Mango Colts. Yeah, okay, So so MAO got like I 1:25:59.680 --> 1:26:02.200 forget who was I want to say it was the 1:26:02.200 --> 1:26:06.160 Prime Minister of Pakistan. Some some like dignitary like gave 1:26:06.240 --> 1:26:07.800 him a man. This is this is like this is 1:26:08.120 --> 1:26:09.840 the beginning of the cultural revolution. Somebody gives him a 1:26:09.880 --> 1:26:12.880 mango and he like hands this mango off to like 1:26:13.320 --> 1:26:17.200 a red mango and like they like like this this 1:26:17.320 --> 1:26:20.360 turns into like a cult. Like people like they take 1:26:20.400 --> 1:26:22.840 this mango, they like preserve it. It's it's like they 1:26:22.880 --> 1:26:24.720 have they have like a shrine to the mango and 1:26:24.800 --> 1:26:28.920 like like there's this whole cult apparatus like builds up 1:26:29.000 --> 1:26:32.160 around just people getting mangoes as like tokens of Mao's favor. 1:26:32.320 --> 1:26:34.400 Is this this like this this massive things that is 1:26:34.520 --> 1:26:37.720 this This this spreads like wildfire. It's like people are 1:26:37.760 --> 1:26:40.880 doing this in like the far western reaches of China 1:26:41.040 --> 1:26:44.720 where like like in places where like there's like like 1:26:46.040 --> 1:26:47.800 like there there are places in China where like civil 1:26:47.840 --> 1:26:50.720 wars breakout and it takes people like a week to 1:26:50.880 --> 1:26:54.280 like send representatives like across China to go like talk 1:26:54.280 --> 1:26:55.880 to the Central Committee to argue their case. And like 1:26:56.120 --> 1:26:58.680 even in those places they have mango cults and it 1:26:58.920 --> 1:27:03.080 is it is wild The culture revolution is a is 1:27:03.160 --> 1:27:06.120 a it is a time. It is well I know 1:27:06.240 --> 1:27:10.519 what I'm getting everyone for Christmas this year. They're my 1:27:10.600 --> 1:27:14.040 favorite fruit. Like, we'll see, we'll see if the species 1:27:14.120 --> 1:27:19.640 survives this next summer. Oh we will. Yeah, we'll just 1:27:19.760 --> 1:27:27.760 be growing, just be growing in Siberia. Mangoes sprouting from 1:27:27.840 --> 1:27:31.600 the corpses of fucking antelope. That is beautiful. Um. I 1:27:31.640 --> 1:27:38.360 can't think of anything. Next question, okay, uh speaking of history, 1:27:38.680 --> 1:27:41.960 I like this one. If you could fight anyone in history, 1:27:42.160 --> 1:27:46.000 wait for it and lose, who would you fight? And why? 1:27:47.200 --> 1:27:50.320 Who would I fight and lose and lose? Like you'd 1:27:50.400 --> 1:27:53.040 still get like a few good hits in or something, 1:27:53.360 --> 1:27:56.280 but you'd lose David Bowie because it would be hot. 1:27:56.600 --> 1:28:02.200 Next question other people can answer. I guess no, I 1:28:02.240 --> 1:28:06.519 think that's a good that's the perfect answer. Yeah. I 1:28:06.600 --> 1:28:09.920 would happily be hit by David Bowie, so sure, why 1:28:09.960 --> 1:28:13.320 not there? Yeah? And I know that David Bowie really 1:28:13.360 --> 1:28:15.800 loved to hit teenagers. I would be totally hitting in 1:28:15.880 --> 1:28:18.639 the other sense, scared. I would be fine with anything. 1:28:19.640 --> 1:28:27.760 I don't care when it comes to Bowie. Wow, that's problematic. Problematic. 1:28:28.280 --> 1:28:31.919 Uh huh. We got a few questions about the ethics 1:28:32.120 --> 1:28:37.120 of leaving the United States as things get worse, Okay, 1:28:37.479 --> 1:28:41.920 that's yeah. And this is something that I know we've 1:28:41.960 --> 1:28:45.160 talked about. You've got that get out of America and 1:28:45.479 --> 1:28:49.000 I see. That's the thing is that, like I already 1:28:49.040 --> 1:28:51.640 have my Canadian passport, so that is something that I 1:28:51.760 --> 1:28:54.680 can do at any time. And that's something that I 1:28:54.720 --> 1:28:57.439 probably will do at some point because one I can 1:28:57.520 --> 1:29:00.599 see myself in my theorties and forties, living in Canada 1:29:00.640 --> 1:29:03.280 will be a lot easier in a lot of ways 1:29:03.520 --> 1:29:06.599 in terms of like how much money it will cost 1:29:06.720 --> 1:29:09.280 for me to live and pay certain things, Like living 1:29:09.439 --> 1:29:10.960 in Canada at a certain point will just make a 1:29:11.000 --> 1:29:12.680 lot more sense for me. So yeah, I probably will 1:29:12.720 --> 1:29:16.800 move up. Um. And I also know that getting past 1:29:16.880 --> 1:29:19.439 Canadian border patrol not that hard in terms of other 1:29:19.520 --> 1:29:22.920 people wanting to go legally or illegally. That's it is 1:29:22.960 --> 1:29:25.760 actually pretty easy to get to get up there. Um, 1:29:25.800 --> 1:29:27.560 if you want to do it legally, that's definitely a 1:29:27.600 --> 1:29:31.479 lot a lot more work, but also not impossible. Um. Yeah, 1:29:31.560 --> 1:29:33.720 I think. I mean, like it's important to know that 1:29:33.840 --> 1:29:38.000 like moving to somewhere else is not escaping the effects, 1:29:38.000 --> 1:29:41.240 because the effects are going to reach everywhere, but it 1:29:41.360 --> 1:29:46.280 can have a lot of advantages. Um, especially kids. Yeah, 1:29:46.320 --> 1:29:49.880 so I I say moving up is or moving away 1:29:49.960 --> 1:29:52.920 from the States is a decent thing for a lot 1:29:52.960 --> 1:29:55.479 of people. I don't feel the need to stay and 1:29:55.640 --> 1:29:59.320 fight for something that I don't really care about what's 1:29:59.320 --> 1:30:03.360 in the first place that anyway, UM, so sure do 1:30:03.640 --> 1:30:06.639 what makes you happy in the time that you have alive. 1:30:07.560 --> 1:30:10.640 I feel like that's a that says as ethical as 1:30:10.680 --> 1:30:13.760 you need to get Yeah, I don't think anyone has 1:30:13.760 --> 1:30:18.519 a responsibility to like stay in uh fight to the 1:30:18.640 --> 1:30:24.200 death uh in in a collapsing country. UM. As as 1:30:24.240 --> 1:30:28.240 a general rule, I'm very sympathetic towards refugees. And that's 1:30:28.400 --> 1:30:30.439 kind of what you would be if you're talking about 1:30:30.479 --> 1:30:33.559 fleeing the United States because you're it's in the process 1:30:33.600 --> 1:30:36.559 of falling apart and things are you suspect a lot 1:30:36.760 --> 1:30:38.560 about to get a lot more violent, especially if you 1:30:38.600 --> 1:30:43.040 have again like a family kids. Um. I I had 1:30:43.200 --> 1:30:46.320 options to do that that I've I've chosen at this 1:30:46.479 --> 1:30:51.840 point not to um not to pursue UM but uh, 1:30:52.360 --> 1:30:54.880 I get white people would and as a general rule, 1:30:54.960 --> 1:30:58.080 like I spent I spent once when I was um 1:30:58.520 --> 1:31:02.120 in ah in Bosnia and Serbia talking to survivors of 1:31:02.280 --> 1:31:05.280 the genocide there in the nineties, UM, I took a 1:31:05.360 --> 1:31:10.000 train ride um from Sarajevo to like a little town 1:31:10.360 --> 1:31:14.120 near Strabernitza, and Uh, during the train ride, I wound 1:31:14.200 --> 1:31:16.680 up like hanging out with this dude who had been 1:31:16.760 --> 1:31:20.080 born and raised in Yugoslavia and had been living in 1:31:20.400 --> 1:31:25.439 Canada since the Civil War. And he, like very through 1:31:25.479 --> 1:31:27.559 in his kind of broken English, explained like, yeah, when 1:31:27.560 --> 1:31:29.680 the war broke out, all of my friends, all of 1:31:29.720 --> 1:31:31.439 these other young guys I knew, were like, well, you 1:31:31.520 --> 1:31:33.920 know we're gonna fight, We're gonna fight. And I said, no, no, no, no, 1:31:34.080 --> 1:31:36.360 no to Canada And this is the first time I've 1:31:36.400 --> 1:31:39.040 been back, and that was the smart thing to do. UM. 1:31:39.800 --> 1:31:41.840 So I'm not I mean, if you can get the 1:31:41.960 --> 1:31:44.200 if you can get out and find a place that's safer, 1:31:44.280 --> 1:31:47.200 as Garrison said, like, there's there's nothing I think that 1:31:47.320 --> 1:31:52.519 inherently behooves you to spend your uh limited time on 1:31:52.600 --> 1:31:55.799 this planet struggling, And especially if you've got a family, 1:31:55.920 --> 1:31:57.640 like doing what you can to put them in a 1:31:57.680 --> 1:32:01.880 safer position is great. That's none of it's a permanent 1:32:02.000 --> 1:32:04.280 or even necessarily a long term solution, like the idea 1:32:04.320 --> 1:32:06.280 of moving to Canada has a lot of appeal, But like, 1:32:07.080 --> 1:32:09.160 if you think that Canada is going to keep being 1:32:09.840 --> 1:32:11.840 what would a lot of Americans see it as as 1:32:11.880 --> 1:32:15.400 the United States collapses into like fascism. I don't know 1:32:15.479 --> 1:32:18.920 how realistic a proposition that really is. And it's the 1:32:19.000 --> 1:32:20.720 same for a lot of places. Like all of these 1:32:20.800 --> 1:32:25.120 problems are global problems, and moving geographically unless you're wealthy 1:32:25.280 --> 1:32:28.680 enough to move to like some fortified compound protected by 1:32:28.760 --> 1:32:32.639 contractors in a place that is actually insulated from climate 1:32:32.720 --> 1:32:36.920 change to a significant extent, um is not the does 1:32:37.000 --> 1:32:39.599 not bring the degree of security you might expect. Um. 1:32:39.800 --> 1:32:41.920 I do think there is. I do think it is, 1:32:42.400 --> 1:32:46.680 generally speaking, a noble and positive thing, uh to to 1:32:47.080 --> 1:32:50.000 to stay and try to make things better where you are. 1:32:50.320 --> 1:32:53.280 But um, you know, I think everybody. I think everyone. 1:32:53.439 --> 1:32:56.320 I think every single person, whether they admit it or not, 1:32:56.960 --> 1:32:59.800 would leave at a certain point if they possibly could. Um. 1:33:00.000 --> 1:33:03.080 And I don't think anyone is. I don't think anyone 1:33:03.160 --> 1:33:07.960 owes it to the world to like, uh, die in 1:33:08.080 --> 1:33:13.040 a place that they hate just because, um that's where 1:33:13.080 --> 1:33:17.439 they were born. And we're back. Okay, Oh, this is 1:33:17.479 --> 1:33:21.240 a good one. What tool besides bolt cutters. Should we 1:33:21.360 --> 1:33:24.880 all own in a collapse situation? First of all, bolt 1:33:24.920 --> 1:33:27.600 cutters That should not be your first picture to for 1:33:27.680 --> 1:33:31.240 a tool. No, No, it should be an angle grinder 1:33:31.400 --> 1:33:35.519 with a diamond blade. No. Even like water filters gotten 1:33:35.560 --> 1:33:38.839 me out of a number of types water filtration systems. 1:33:39.120 --> 1:33:41.640 There's starters, like, there's a lot of there's a lot 1:33:41.680 --> 1:33:44.519 of stuff. If not evens not water filtration, you can 1:33:44.560 --> 1:33:46.960 get tablets or honestly, like you can have a little 1:33:47.000 --> 1:33:50.439 hand pump filter and water purification tablets along with a 1:33:50.479 --> 1:33:53.360 little you know, there's a number of things that are 1:33:53.520 --> 1:33:55.080 that should be in a go bag. A way to 1:33:55.280 --> 1:33:58.600 get some amount of of already clean water and a 1:33:58.680 --> 1:34:01.560 way to get more clean water. Are enough food to 1:34:01.680 --> 1:34:05.280 at least deal with three to five days. UM, some 1:34:05.520 --> 1:34:09.559 rope UM. A good knife multi tool is even better 1:34:09.760 --> 1:34:12.760 in most situations if you have if you don't mind 1:34:12.840 --> 1:34:15.599 the weight, a belt knife and a multi tool would 1:34:15.640 --> 1:34:18.120 be great, or a multi tool in a little hand axe, which, 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:20.479 depending on where you live, might be more useful in 1:34:20.920 --> 1:34:25.479 splitting wood. A good fire starter, UM, some amount of 1:34:25.600 --> 1:34:28.600 rubbing alcohol, which is always a handy thing to have 1:34:28.840 --> 1:34:33.360 on hand. UM. Either maps or you know, batteries for 1:34:33.439 --> 1:34:35.920 an electronic device that might be able to act as 1:34:35.960 --> 1:34:42.040 a map. Um. Yeah, that that's all useful stuff. Um 1:34:42.400 --> 1:34:44.439 I do I I do keep in the boot of 1:34:44.520 --> 1:34:47.840 my car generally an angle grinder. Um. I have come into, 1:34:48.040 --> 1:34:49.880 especially living out in the middle of nowhere, a couple 1:34:49.960 --> 1:34:53.120 of situations like sometimes somebody has a health emergency and 1:34:53.160 --> 1:34:55.920 there is a fence in the way, um, and it's 1:34:56.040 --> 1:34:58.479 it has been something that is and is I think 1:34:58.600 --> 1:35:01.439 going to be easier form. Old cutters are good at 1:35:01.479 --> 1:35:03.719 what they do, they also require a lot of forearm 1:35:03.800 --> 1:35:05.800 and upper body strength that is not going to be 1:35:05.840 --> 1:35:08.160 as much of an option for people. So angle grinder 1:35:08.720 --> 1:35:10.960 not a bad thing to have in any sort of like. 1:35:11.479 --> 1:35:13.360 It's especially if you like if you're if you're planning 1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:14.640 a kid, like I want to keep ship in my 1:35:14.680 --> 1:35:17.639 car because the wildfires are coming right. Um, well, you're 1:35:17.760 --> 1:35:20.920 probably don't want a battery powered saw. Um because depending 1:35:20.960 --> 1:35:22.839 on the capable even if you have a very capable 1:35:22.880 --> 1:35:25.639 off roading vehicle, everyone I know who does serious overlanding 1:35:25.760 --> 1:35:28.360 is like, well you keep a fucking chainsaw in there, 1:35:28.360 --> 1:35:30.479 because sometimes you need to cut wood out of the 1:35:30.560 --> 1:35:32.040 way and you're just not going to get your car 1:35:32.200 --> 1:35:35.000 over it. Um. So it really depends on what you're 1:35:35.040 --> 1:35:38.920 doing and like what the what the the kind of 1:35:39.280 --> 1:35:44.080 potential threats you're worried about are um, But yeah, I 1:35:44.160 --> 1:35:47.599 think the basics are way to get water, some amount 1:35:47.680 --> 1:35:50.680 of food, ability to start a fire. Something like a 1:35:51.640 --> 1:35:53.800 space blanket is useful. If you live in a place 1:35:53.840 --> 1:35:56.400 where it actually gets cold, you should have a space 1:35:56.439 --> 1:35:58.880 blanket and a wool blanket or a couple of wool 1:35:58.960 --> 1:36:04.200 blankets because those will retain heat much better. Wool keeps 1:36:04.280 --> 1:36:07.000 like eight of its insulating capacity even when wet, and 1:36:07.120 --> 1:36:11.760 like layering wool and survival blankets um can be a 1:36:11.800 --> 1:36:14.439 really effective way to keep yourself from dying in in 1:36:14.920 --> 1:36:20.280 in bad weather situations. UM. That said, depending on where 1:36:20.280 --> 1:36:22.840 you are, there may be no realistic way to protect 1:36:22.920 --> 1:36:25.200 yourself in the like if you are in certain parts 1:36:25.240 --> 1:36:27.360 of the Midwest at certain parts of the winter, it 1:36:27.640 --> 1:36:30.000 may not matter so much, like what blankets you have 1:36:30.160 --> 1:36:33.880 at access to frustrating the will there's and there's no 1:36:34.040 --> 1:36:38.720 like structures around you, then yeah, it's negative, there's only 1:36:38.800 --> 1:36:43.439 so much. Yeah, I do love collecting a lock bypass tools. 1:36:43.680 --> 1:36:45.720 It's one of my favorite things is just to have 1:36:45.920 --> 1:36:50.599 these practice using them. Um. Something I got for when 1:36:50.640 --> 1:36:53.720 I went to the Earth First Gathering that worked out 1:36:53.800 --> 1:36:58.280 pretty well was a foldable solar panel that connects to USB. 1:36:58.439 --> 1:37:01.400 That's enough to keep my phone allow. I've always so 1:37:01.760 --> 1:37:04.919 in terms of always wanting a map, this little foldable 1:37:05.000 --> 1:37:07.160 thing is enough to keep my phone able to have 1:37:07.280 --> 1:37:10.320 a map assuming I have cell service. So I was 1:37:10.360 --> 1:37:13.200 skeptical of how much this thing could work. Um, and 1:37:13.360 --> 1:37:16.360 it it did a decent enough job. It even kept 1:37:16.479 --> 1:37:19.840 it even kept like my iPad pro um uh powered 1:37:19.880 --> 1:37:22.679 as well, so it had had had a decent amount 1:37:22.760 --> 1:37:26.400 of square footage once you unroll it. So that was 1:37:26.520 --> 1:37:30.320 very useful. But yeah, I mean I I really like 1:37:30.600 --> 1:37:33.120 luck Bypass stuff. Um, it's one of one of one 1:37:33.160 --> 1:37:35.720 of my other hobbies. So this is you know a 1:37:35.840 --> 1:37:38.400 variety of tools in that type that it's nice to 1:37:38.439 --> 1:37:42.439 get like a decent collection of also, like especially now, 1:37:42.760 --> 1:37:46.439 but probably in general, like have masks like just I 1:37:46.479 --> 1:37:50.240 mean just in general, like have masks, have lots of them, 1:37:50.680 --> 1:37:54.519 make sure you can change them. Yeah, I have a 1:37:54.600 --> 1:37:57.840 gas mask if that's at all physically like respond like 1:37:58.000 --> 1:38:00.800 fiscally possible for you mirror is the one I think 1:38:00.840 --> 1:38:06.840 Garrison and I would both recommend to the really good 1:38:06.960 --> 1:38:11.760 gas wonderful again all of these kids, there's the kid 1:38:11.800 --> 1:38:14.200 are like, okay, what is the what is what's necessary? 1:38:14.360 --> 1:38:16.200 And then there's like, all right, if you have money 1:38:16.360 --> 1:38:17.720 or if you have time that you want to learn 1:38:17.840 --> 1:38:20.320 extra skills? What are other things like lock picks? If 1:38:20.320 --> 1:38:22.200 you're just a random Joe and you've never like, don't 1:38:22.240 --> 1:38:23.840 throw lock picks in your kid, if you've never done 1:38:23.880 --> 1:38:26.240 any lock picks ship, they're not going to help you. Um, 1:38:27.080 --> 1:38:29.760 but if that that is a skill that is worth 1:38:29.840 --> 1:38:32.599 picking up and that will make you like more resilient. 1:38:33.040 --> 1:38:37.719 Um yeah um oh. And a fourteen point nine millimeter 1:38:37.800 --> 1:38:40.880 anti material rifle. Um, you're always gonna need one of those. 1:38:40.960 --> 1:38:43.600 They're they stay supersonic. It up to three and a 1:38:43.640 --> 1:38:48.000 half miles UM, which is really useful. So definitely, definitely, 1:38:48.120 --> 1:38:50.599 And they're only you probably aren't going to spend more 1:38:50.600 --> 1:38:53.439 than dollars getting one set up, So it's it's really 1:38:53.720 --> 1:38:57.160 for the price of a of a fairly new Toyota Prius, 1:38:57.760 --> 1:39:00.639 you could have um an anti materi, a real rifle 1:39:00.760 --> 1:39:04.000 that con pierce armored vehicles. At at several miles distance, 1:39:04.080 --> 1:39:07.439 and really what is more pragmatic a survival tool than that? 1:39:09.560 --> 1:39:15.160 And we for it. It's only like thirty around. That's 1:39:15.240 --> 1:39:23.200 just a moderately expensive meal per bullet. Christopher, Uh, do 1:39:23.360 --> 1:39:27.759 you think that corporations like Walmart or Amazon could become 1:39:27.840 --> 1:39:34.760 more militarystic? Yeah? I mean yeah, I think I think absolutely. 1:39:34.960 --> 1:39:39.120 The trend that worries me is Amazon's increasing um collaborations 1:39:39.200 --> 1:39:41.840 with and deeper connections with like the FBI and other 1:39:41.920 --> 1:39:44.840 kind of law enforcement agencies. Um. The degree to which 1:39:44.880 --> 1:39:47.479 target has also like with the FBI and like with 1:39:47.600 --> 1:39:51.599 other agencies, because they're they're anti shrink Department and whatnot. 1:39:51.680 --> 1:39:54.719 They're like, they're the surveillance they've built to stop theft 1:39:54.880 --> 1:39:57.559 is so advanced. They have one of the best crime 1:39:57.680 --> 1:40:01.400 labs in the whole United States. Yeah. UM, organizations like 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:04.799 Tiger Swan, which is a mercenary group that the Dakota 1:40:04.880 --> 1:40:07.920 Pipeline people, the Dapple folks like hired to crack down 1:40:07.960 --> 1:40:10.280 on the Standing Rock protests and have have worked in 1:40:10.320 --> 1:40:13.960 other There's other organizations like that that we're active during 1:40:14.000 --> 1:40:17.000 the BLM protests and kind of the I I do 1:40:17.160 --> 1:40:20.720 think we're seeing a pair of militarization of a lot 1:40:20.840 --> 1:40:24.160 of these corporation, a lot of these corporations in order 1:40:24.240 --> 1:40:26.879 to protect their what they see is their financial interests 1:40:27.680 --> 1:40:30.960 UM and that that is that is proceeding rapidly, And 1:40:31.040 --> 1:40:33.720 it's not the thing that I'm not most I'm not 1:40:33.840 --> 1:40:37.920 most worried about them, like do like having armed forces, 1:40:38.000 --> 1:40:40.360 although there will be some degree of that. There's already 1:40:40.439 --> 1:40:42.920 that's already happen, Like in Portland and downtown Portland there 1:40:42.920 --> 1:40:49.559 are armed effectively like mercenaries guarding certain businesses in certain areas, 1:40:49.680 --> 1:40:53.040 like as a result of like you know, to deal 1:40:53.080 --> 1:40:55.920 with quote unquote the gun crime or whatever property crime 1:40:56.000 --> 1:40:57.800 that's raised. But the thing that I think is most 1:40:57.840 --> 1:41:01.479 concerning is the degree to which they are professionalizing a 1:41:01.800 --> 1:41:06.600 paramilitary surveillance apparatus UM and Amazon has done it to 1:41:06.640 --> 1:41:09.080 do stuff like crackdown on union organizing and whatnot, like, 1:41:09.640 --> 1:41:12.479 So yeah, I'm very concerned with that. I'm I I 1:41:12.680 --> 1:41:15.280 think that the the dimension of it that's most frightening 1:41:15.360 --> 1:41:20.160 is not necessarily like the shadow run corporations buying armies, 1:41:20.560 --> 1:41:24.360 but rather corporations buying like intelligence agencies. UM. Is kind 1:41:24.360 --> 1:41:26.000 of the thing that I think will actually be the 1:41:26.040 --> 1:41:29.439 biggest threat um because in a lot of cases, generally speaking, 1:41:29.479 --> 1:41:31.479 if I have to deal with an armed security guard 1:41:31.600 --> 1:41:34.160 or a cop, that security guard is going to be 1:41:34.280 --> 1:41:36.559 less of a pain in the ass than the cop. Um. 1:41:36.840 --> 1:41:39.280 Not always, but as a general rule, I'm less worried 1:41:39.280 --> 1:41:43.240 about security guards than cops, even armed ones. I think 1:41:43.600 --> 1:41:46.400 another thing that's important to keep in mind is that, yeah, 1:41:46.439 --> 1:41:49.160 I mean, it's like, I don't, I don't. I really 1:41:49.240 --> 1:41:51.040 don't think there's a danger that we're going to go 1:41:51.200 --> 1:41:55.439 back to like East India company style, like people with 1:41:55.520 --> 1:41:58.040 mass armies, because it's it's literally too expensive, Like you can't, 1:41:58.120 --> 1:42:01.519 it's it's too expensive. And the armies that exist already 1:42:01.720 --> 1:42:03.760 do that. Yeah, yeah, you don't need them. But but 1:42:03.800 --> 1:42:05.320 I mean, I think that the thing the thing that's 1:42:05.600 --> 1:42:09.759 like scary outside of the intelligence stuff, which is terrifying, 1:42:09.880 --> 1:42:12.560 but it's the stuff they do down like acus you 1:42:12.600 --> 1:42:15.240 call it down the supply chain, which is like you know, 1:42:15.280 --> 1:42:17.760 the cocol and murder and union organizers with paramilitaries, right, 1:42:17.800 --> 1:42:21.720 they tend to work through like like you know, the 1:42:21.800 --> 1:42:25.200 corporations will back rebel groups, right, corporations will back like 1:42:25.479 --> 1:42:27.120 you know, in Colombia, you see a lot of this 1:42:27.200 --> 1:42:32.280 is like you have these sort of like these I 1:42:32.320 --> 1:42:34.479 mean something about some of the back just directly by 1:42:34.560 --> 1:42:37.960 landholding holding corporations. Some of them are backed by just 1:42:38.320 --> 1:42:41.479 individual large landholders. But you get these like you know, 1:42:41.600 --> 1:42:44.320 you get basically these paramilitaries that are sort of the 1:42:44.400 --> 1:42:48.120 third wave after the army goes in, and that stuff 1:42:48.120 --> 1:42:50.040 is very scary or probably we're probably gonna see more 1:42:50.040 --> 1:42:54.920 of that, and yeah, but but but but I think 1:42:54.960 --> 1:43:00.360 it's it's kind of important that there's there there's an 1:43:00.400 --> 1:43:04.720 extent to which again you'll see them having their own mercenaries. 1:43:04.800 --> 1:43:08.599 But a lot of the time it's there's some kind 1:43:08.680 --> 1:43:12.280 of thing when when when companies really need to kill someone, 1:43:13.080 --> 1:43:17.400 they tend to outsource that to aid like another sort 1:43:17.400 --> 1:43:20.240 of paramilitary organization that's like not directly in their supply chain. 1:43:20.960 --> 1:43:23.439 It's like that it's not directly under their training command. Mhm. 1:43:24.120 --> 1:43:27.320 So yeah, that's that's a good and fun time that 1:43:28.040 --> 1:43:33.160 we'll probably just get worse mhm. Speaking of corporate uh 1:43:33.960 --> 1:43:38.040 funkori or whatever, a Coca Cola ad I hope, I 1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:40.040 hope we do get a Coca Cola add because nothing 1:43:40.160 --> 1:43:44.800 soothes my quench like a cherry vanilla Coca cola. Nothing 1:43:44.960 --> 1:43:49.200 soothes your quench. That's what I said. Those are words 1:43:49.240 --> 1:43:52.360 that came out of a Now we're back, okay, Robert. 1:43:52.439 --> 1:43:56.240 Somebody had a question about an article you wrote back 1:43:56.320 --> 1:43:58.400 when you worked at Crack about a woman who was 1:43:58.479 --> 1:44:01.600 hiding from their family. The end an article. Yeah, you 1:44:01.720 --> 1:44:03.559 mentioned that you haven't heard from her in a couple 1:44:03.560 --> 1:44:06.760 of weeks leading up to and they want to know 1:44:06.800 --> 1:44:09.479 if you've ever heard from her again. So yeah, that's 1:44:09.520 --> 1:44:11.760 a bummer. The pseudonym I'm I'm not going to use 1:44:11.800 --> 1:44:13.360 her real name in this, but the pseudonym I used 1:44:13.400 --> 1:44:14.880 for her in the article was as Ame. She was 1:44:14.920 --> 1:44:19.120 a woman who lived in Um the EU, and Uh 1:44:19.720 --> 1:44:22.439 was under threat of honor killing from her family, who 1:44:22.479 --> 1:44:27.080 were from Pakistan in origin Um because she was an atheist, 1:44:27.680 --> 1:44:31.720 was not Um religious hardliner UM and didn't want to be. 1:44:31.840 --> 1:44:33.599 And for years she had kind of hidden that from 1:44:33.640 --> 1:44:35.680 her family, Like she'd moved out on her own, but 1:44:35.760 --> 1:44:37.719 she'd hidden the fact that, like she had a boyfriend, 1:44:37.760 --> 1:44:39.840 she'd hidden the fact that she'd liked played dungeons all 1:44:39.920 --> 1:44:41.479 of this stuff, like she played D and D and 1:44:41.640 --> 1:44:43.200 was like scared that like that was like her dad 1:44:43.240 --> 1:44:45.519 would literally kill her. And this is a thing that happens. 1:44:45.600 --> 1:44:47.559 This is a thing that happens in the United States 1:44:47.640 --> 1:44:50.600 and the EU. UM it's a problem with like fundamentalist 1:44:50.920 --> 1:44:53.920 um Islam, and that's not the only religion there's honor 1:44:54.000 --> 1:44:57.439 killings as a result on. But that was her specific situation. 1:44:57.520 --> 1:44:59.519 One of the things she was frightened about is her 1:44:59.520 --> 1:45:02.599 family go back to Pakistan regularly, and she was concerned. 1:45:02.760 --> 1:45:04.439 She wanted to go because it was the only way 1:45:04.439 --> 1:45:06.600 to see her grandparents, but she was also concerned that 1:45:07.200 --> 1:45:09.320 if her parents found out when they went back, they 1:45:09.360 --> 1:45:13.880 would basically imprison her somewhere where she would not be 1:45:13.920 --> 1:45:16.160 able to get out and get back to her home 1:45:16.280 --> 1:45:18.599 and she would be forced to be married off or something. 1:45:19.040 --> 1:45:21.720 So she was working with an organization um in the 1:45:21.800 --> 1:45:24.719 country in the EU where she lived that helped people 1:45:24.800 --> 1:45:26.720 extricate themselves and and the kind of one of the 1:45:26.800 --> 1:45:28.240 last things she told me is that, like, well, the 1:45:28.320 --> 1:45:30.160 things she was looking at doing because she was so 1:45:30.240 --> 1:45:33.479 worried about her dad was a total break. Was like 1:45:33.600 --> 1:45:36.880 one day, with the help of this organization, she would 1:45:36.920 --> 1:45:38.880 just be gone and in another part of the EU 1:45:39.080 --> 1:45:41.240 and would have a complete break from her life and 1:45:41.360 --> 1:45:46.040 would completely stop living as the identity UM she had 1:45:46.080 --> 1:45:49.280 had her entire life. UM. And I never heard from 1:45:49.320 --> 1:45:51.400 her again after that, after like three or four different 1:45:51.439 --> 1:45:54.040 interview sessions, and I still have not uh. And my 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:56.400 hope is that she did the thing she said she 1:45:56.560 --> 1:45:59.080 was going to do, and she just completely burned that 1:45:59.160 --> 1:46:01.640 email and every their way people had of getting in 1:46:01.720 --> 1:46:04.320 touch with her. UM. And she's doing great now. But 1:46:04.520 --> 1:46:07.120 I really have no idea. UM, I have absolutely no 1:46:07.200 --> 1:46:11.840 idea what happened to her? Oh uh, So we would 1:46:12.000 --> 1:46:14.240 people want an update on the quest for eel horse. 1:46:16.080 --> 1:46:18.800 Uh Still no, still no horse. Still have not found 1:46:18.840 --> 1:46:23.719 an entire horse carcass um. But but one day it'll happen. 1:46:24.000 --> 1:46:31.240 You know, it will happen. Okay, it's gonna be good, Garson. 1:46:32.680 --> 1:46:35.080 That gator that I shoved a turkey or a duck 1:46:35.120 --> 1:46:38.920 inside and a turkey next too, was pretty good. It 1:46:39.080 --> 1:46:40.840 was great. After I took it out of the pit 1:46:41.000 --> 1:46:44.040 as you were wrestling people screaming, Well, that's the only 1:46:44.120 --> 1:46:46.320 way to properly cook it the right amount of time 1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:48.080 is to get drunk enough that people have to fight 1:46:48.120 --> 1:46:51.760 you to remove it from the fire gear. That's how 1:46:51.920 --> 1:46:54.120 cooking works. I don't know, if you've done much of 1:46:54.160 --> 1:46:58.120 it in your life, you'll you'll understand one day. This 1:46:58.280 --> 1:47:00.519 This is a question that I find interest doing because 1:47:00.520 --> 1:47:02.880 I feel like it really must understand, not to like 1:47:03.160 --> 1:47:06.080 insult the first asking it, but at think that that's 1:47:06.080 --> 1:47:09.439 not That's not what I'm trying to do. Um. The 1:47:09.600 --> 1:47:13.840 question is, um, what population can the post capitalist world 1:47:13.960 --> 1:47:17.559 sustain and thrive on with our ideas and concepts? A billion? 1:47:17.600 --> 1:47:20.120 Like we currently have six billion to a billion less 1:47:20.120 --> 1:47:22.400 than ability, Like, how how do people are you willing 1:47:22.520 --> 1:47:27.240 to lose to achieve sustainability? Because I forget the community 1:47:27.640 --> 1:47:30.800 and are optimistic with proper technology and ecosustainability techniques, we 1:47:30.800 --> 1:47:32.680 can maintain a population close to what we have now. 1:47:33.120 --> 1:47:35.720 And Yeah, I feel like just the framing of this 1:47:35.880 --> 1:47:40.679 question kind of approaches our current problems and the solutions 1:47:40.760 --> 1:47:43.120 we have in a weird way, because I don't think 1:47:43.640 --> 1:47:47.800 we're not trying to reach a peak population. We're trying 1:47:47.880 --> 1:47:50.320 to make sure the people that we have have enough 1:47:50.360 --> 1:47:53.040 stuff to live well. And we have that right now. 1:47:53.200 --> 1:47:57.280 We we we overproduce everything. We make about one and 1:47:57.320 --> 1:47:58.920 a half times as much food as we need to 1:47:59.000 --> 1:48:02.439 to feed everybody, yet there are billions and millions of 1:48:02.439 --> 1:48:05.280 people who go hungry. So it's not a so like 1:48:05.760 --> 1:48:10.240 it's approaching this issue. Yeah, so approaching this question in 1:48:10.360 --> 1:48:13.000 terms of like how could the post capitalist world thrive 1:48:13.120 --> 1:48:15.840 on our ideas, and like, I we're not trying to 1:48:15.920 --> 1:48:22.479 like reach a certain population number, where I think going 1:48:22.560 --> 1:48:24.840 it from that way is kind of a little silly 1:48:24.840 --> 1:48:26.600 because I feel like it should be the opposite is. 1:48:26.680 --> 1:48:29.320 But yeah, I I don't know why we don't think 1:48:29.360 --> 1:48:31.040 we need to start with population and then go down. 1:48:32.120 --> 1:48:34.360 The point is is look what we have, here's the people. 1:48:34.800 --> 1:48:37.080 Let's distribute this like a network instead of a top 1:48:37.160 --> 1:48:41.040 down kind of system. Yeah. I I think that one 1:48:41.080 --> 1:48:42.640 of the things you have to if you're taught, if 1:48:42.640 --> 1:48:45.519 you're trying to talk about social ecology, one of the 1:48:45.600 --> 1:48:48.880 things you have to resist, um is this idea that 1:48:49.040 --> 1:48:53.320 like they're overpopulation is any part of the problem. It 1:48:53.760 --> 1:48:58.519 is not. Consumption is a problem, um, But there's plenty 1:48:58.600 --> 1:49:01.880 of resources. The problem is again one of allocation, and 1:49:02.080 --> 1:49:04.679 if you were to actually develop a much more equitable 1:49:04.720 --> 1:49:06.880 society where people were getting enough, one of the things 1:49:06.960 --> 1:49:09.760 that we have seen demographically all over the world when 1:49:10.560 --> 1:49:14.920 um the level of kind of um when the the 1:49:15.439 --> 1:49:18.879 sort of resources available per capita and a population increases, 1:49:19.400 --> 1:49:23.439 is people have less kids um and and like I 1:49:23.760 --> 1:49:25.600 think that, Yeah, it's certainly good to say that, like, 1:49:25.720 --> 1:49:28.720 in a world that is more equitable, the human population 1:49:28.800 --> 1:49:32.560 will naturally level off and decrease somewhat. But that the 1:49:33.240 --> 1:49:35.960 thing that's not the same as saying that, like we 1:49:36.080 --> 1:49:39.320 need to decrease the population, we need to increase um 1:49:39.600 --> 1:49:43.360 equity um and and make sure that people have access 1:49:43.400 --> 1:49:46.840 to the resources that they need um and also that 1:49:46.960 --> 1:49:49.800 people who are massively over consuming aren't allowed to do 1:49:49.920 --> 1:49:53.200 that anymore. You know, that will solve the problems and 1:49:53.400 --> 1:49:56.400 scale back all of the resources being put towards useless 1:49:56.439 --> 1:50:01.920 growth and predict towards better distribution. Thus, actually, like the 1:50:02.080 --> 1:50:04.760 Questionnaer used the term like post capitalist. I don't think 1:50:04.800 --> 1:50:06.960 we're gonna get to a post capitalist world ever, Like, 1:50:07.280 --> 1:50:08.960 at least at least not when I'm allowed. I don't 1:50:09.000 --> 1:50:12.559 think like a world no. Will there be post capitalist areas, probably, 1:50:12.880 --> 1:50:14.360 but we're never gonna get there. There's never gonna be 1:50:14.360 --> 1:50:16.800 a post capitalist world. I don't. I don't. I don't 1:50:16.840 --> 1:50:19.880 think that I also think it's entirely possible that we 1:50:19.960 --> 1:50:22.120 will reach points that people in the time will not 1:50:22.280 --> 1:50:25.320 necessarily consider post capitalist because it will be the same 1:50:25.439 --> 1:50:28.320 states and a lot of the same institutions organizations that 1:50:28.360 --> 1:50:31.479 were there as a kid. But people who were, you know, 1:50:31.600 --> 1:50:34.320 looking at it from a perspective today might consider post 1:50:34.400 --> 1:50:37.559 capitalist because that's generally how change happens. You know. Yeah, 1:50:37.920 --> 1:50:41.240 about like how democracy increased in in the UK, but 1:50:41.320 --> 1:50:43.080 they still had like a king. It's like when did 1:50:43.160 --> 1:50:45.880 they They're not, they never really reached post monarchy. But 1:50:45.960 --> 1:50:47.960 it's also not the same system that they were run 1:50:48.080 --> 1:50:50.880 by in like fourteen hundred. You know, it's wildly different, 1:50:50.960 --> 1:50:53.840 and there's much more representation for more people, but it 1:50:54.040 --> 1:50:56.960 it's that is not you know that there's also you 1:50:57.040 --> 1:50:59.840 also have your your Soviet unions and you're you're killing 1:51:00.040 --> 1:51:03.960 csars and which are very which which is fine, and 1:51:04.160 --> 1:51:08.320 and and and I I like killings ours. But change 1:51:08.720 --> 1:51:12.040 happens in a variety of ways, and change can be 1:51:12.160 --> 1:51:18.040 revolutionary in its effect without being a clear break. Yeah, 1:51:18.040 --> 1:51:20.320 I'm just trying to think of like how we're talking 1:51:20.360 --> 1:51:23.320 about like the capitalist world thriving, Like I don't I 1:51:23.400 --> 1:51:27.519 don't view eight billion people thriving right now. Even with 1:51:27.840 --> 1:51:29.880 that like a lot of a lot, Like it's not 1:51:30.040 --> 1:51:33.120 like it's that's not what's happening right now, and we 1:51:33.320 --> 1:51:39.880 need to change the way like distribution of resources works drastically, 1:51:40.360 --> 1:51:43.479 and doing that will make everyone's lives a whole lot 1:51:43.680 --> 1:51:46.200 better and it will also maybe limit some of the 1:51:46.400 --> 1:51:50.280 endless growth. And those things aren't opposites, um, And I 1:51:50.439 --> 1:51:54.000 just I don't know how like we can say those things, 1:51:54.280 --> 1:51:58.000 but the path to getting there is certainly a lot 1:51:58.080 --> 1:52:01.680 more ambiguous. Yeah, I think that that's I think one 1:52:01.720 --> 1:52:05.040 of the ways in which the Left goes wrong often 1:52:05.160 --> 1:52:08.000 is kind of looking at things that have been tried 1:52:08.120 --> 1:52:11.800 before and and didn't didn't didn't do the trick and 1:52:11.960 --> 1:52:14.240 saying like, what we need is we need us another 1:52:14.320 --> 1:52:17.360 Bolshevik revolution, you know, we need to bring us back 1:52:17.439 --> 1:52:20.160 that you hammer and sickle. And it's like, well, you know, 1:52:20.240 --> 1:52:23.120 they gave it the old College try and they did 1:52:23.200 --> 1:52:27.040 not win. Um, And you can be angry at that 1:52:27.200 --> 1:52:29.320 or whatever, or you can be like, Okay, it's the same, 1:52:29.400 --> 1:52:31.680 and hey, it's it's every tendency. I can look at 1:52:31.720 --> 1:52:33.920 the fucking maknos and be like, well, that was based 1:52:33.960 --> 1:52:35.200 as hell, and you know what, it didn't do the 1:52:35.240 --> 1:52:38.160 fucking trick UM. So I think there's a degree of 1:52:38.240 --> 1:52:40.960 humility that needs to be had in terms of like 1:52:41.800 --> 1:52:46.719 what actual, what actual change that makes a more livable 1:52:46.760 --> 1:52:48.920 world will look like in the way in which That's 1:52:48.960 --> 1:52:51.439 one of the reasons I did enjoy Kim Stanley Robinson's 1:52:51.479 --> 1:52:53.280 Ministry of the Future is a lot of it is 1:52:53.320 --> 1:52:57.200 about the end of capitalism in a way that is 1:52:57.320 --> 1:53:02.280 not UM. It's it's it. It doesn't look like a 1:53:02.360 --> 1:53:04.840 lot of ends of capitalism have have kind of been 1:53:04.880 --> 1:53:08.599 posited by UM. There's a lot of uh strong arming 1:53:08.680 --> 1:53:13.160 bankers into like forcing high level economic changes that put 1:53:13.240 --> 1:53:17.320 insto like really extractive systems and whatnot. UM, And it's 1:53:17.360 --> 1:53:19.640 it's it's interesting. It was kind of an imagining of 1:53:19.720 --> 1:53:24.000 how the transition could begin UM in a way that 1:53:24.160 --> 1:53:27.200 that isn't commonly talked about UM, at least on the left. 1:53:27.280 --> 1:53:29.120 And I thought it was valuable for that, and I 1:53:29.240 --> 1:53:32.080 think people should be I think there's I think that 1:53:32.280 --> 1:53:36.920 UM UM people can be more creative in how they 1:53:37.000 --> 1:53:39.519 envisioned the way that might look than they they often are. 1:53:39.920 --> 1:53:41.600 And I feel like this question actually relates to like 1:53:41.720 --> 1:53:45.200 stuff like dual power really well, because our our goal 1:53:45.400 --> 1:53:49.040 as individuals is not feeding eight billion people. Our goal 1:53:49.160 --> 1:53:51.080 is to get a garden enough so that we can 1:53:51.360 --> 1:53:53.760 feed most of our friends off of stuff that we 1:53:53.880 --> 1:53:57.360 grew for like the summer, right, Like that's like, that's 1:53:57.439 --> 1:54:00.760 what our goal is to is to fild it from 1:54:01.040 --> 1:54:04.479 that way, instead of saying, like, how how can we 1:54:04.760 --> 1:54:08.519 feed New York in a climate sustainable way? That is 1:54:08.600 --> 1:54:11.519 a very different question than being like if we want 1:54:11.520 --> 1:54:15.160 to integrate solar punk and like ecosustainability stuff into our 1:54:15.240 --> 1:54:17.760 lives now, because if we don't do it, no one 1:54:17.840 --> 1:54:20.600 really else is really going to. Let's start with the 1:54:20.680 --> 1:54:22.880 people you actually already have connections with, because a lot 1:54:22.960 --> 1:54:26.720 of it is is about building like horizontal connections as 1:54:26.760 --> 1:54:30.040 opposed to defaulting to this top down system of who 1:54:30.160 --> 1:54:32.640 has what, who needs what? And this is when we 1:54:32.840 --> 1:54:36.280 when we venture, when we dare to venture into the subreddit. 1:54:36.360 --> 1:54:38.720 One of the things I see people like critiquing a 1:54:38.760 --> 1:54:41.400 lot is like, well, you're you know, they keep talking 1:54:41.440 --> 1:54:43.640 about like all of these little like home gardening and 1:54:43.800 --> 1:54:47.160 like canning and and and kind of these community level solutions, 1:54:47.240 --> 1:54:49.680 but that's not going to deal with like this massive 1:54:49.760 --> 1:54:52.800 systemic problem. It's like, it's not all about that. There's 1:54:52.920 --> 1:54:56.080 there's one. One of the methods in which you can 1:54:56.240 --> 1:55:00.560 ensure change is keeping you and yours alive and committed 1:55:00.600 --> 1:55:03.680 on change. And part of that is ex hyper local 1:55:03.840 --> 1:55:07.960 solutions UM that also involve increasing your own idea of 1:55:08.040 --> 1:55:10.720 your autonomy and your own and your own understanding of 1:55:10.840 --> 1:55:13.560 things like the food cycle, which have an impact on 1:55:13.720 --> 1:55:16.600 what you like, vote for and what you support pushing 1:55:16.680 --> 1:55:19.600 for on like a societal level, the things that you 1:55:19.720 --> 1:55:22.640 come to better understand in your daily life, and and 1:55:22.760 --> 1:55:25.640 so getting involved in all of these things guerilla gardening 1:55:25.680 --> 1:55:28.360 and whatnot UM has an impact on that. All. I 1:55:28.400 --> 1:55:31.959 do think people underestimate, Like the largest crop by acreage 1:55:32.000 --> 1:55:34.000 in the United States by a long shot is fucking 1:55:34.080 --> 1:55:37.360 lawns and replacing lawns with either zero escaping just to 1:55:37.560 --> 1:55:40.960 increase carbon capture and reduce water usage, or with some 1:55:41.080 --> 1:55:43.720 sort of food growth. Doing a mix of that for 1:55:43.920 --> 1:55:46.440 the vast majority of like lawn area in the United 1:55:46.480 --> 1:55:49.520 States actually would be a significant thing on a global level. 1:55:49.840 --> 1:55:54.720 Recommend everyone the Book of Food not lawns. Yeah, there's 1:55:54.960 --> 1:55:57.560 it's that that would not be a meaningless change, and 1:55:57.640 --> 1:55:59.760 it is something that people can have an impact on 1:56:00.000 --> 1:56:02.520 because it is the kind of thing that if we 1:56:02.800 --> 1:56:05.840 were to get popular enough, there's a Pokemon point, you know, 1:56:05.960 --> 1:56:08.560 where it where it becomes a trend um and and 1:56:08.680 --> 1:56:11.960 like Pokemon, if it gets popular enough, it will never die. 1:56:12.960 --> 1:56:14.960 That's what we say about all of our stuff on 1:56:15.040 --> 1:56:18.200 our show. If it if it becomes like Pokemon or 1:56:18.480 --> 1:56:21.280 or n f T point, if that's But I don't 1:56:21.320 --> 1:56:24.760 think in FT Pokemon is so much better than any 1:56:24.920 --> 1:56:27.960 n f T. Although the day that this drops, that 1:56:28.000 --> 1:56:30.640 will probably announce the Pokemon n FT game, which will 1:56:30.640 --> 1:56:34.320 be the final coffin in the biosphere. All of all 1:56:34.400 --> 1:56:36.920 of all of my Pokemons are gone. I've been had 1:56:37.600 --> 1:56:42.840 all my apes gone. That was my favorite post of 1:56:42.920 --> 1:56:45.720 the holiday season. Oh, Robert, do you want to give 1:56:45.720 --> 1:56:47.840 an update on After the Revolution? That was asked a 1:56:47.840 --> 1:56:53.960 couple of times. Yeah, I'm three chapters in UM so 1:56:54.880 --> 1:56:58.160 it'll be done hopefully at some point this year. Garrison 1:56:58.240 --> 1:57:00.160 Garrison has a question on that. Are you gonna pay 1:57:00.280 --> 1:57:05.200 someone else to code the book? No, no, we pay you, Garrison, 1:57:06.680 --> 1:57:09.720 I don't want to code this. Yeah, well, I have 1:57:09.880 --> 1:57:12.240 to work on the Daily Show. Now I cannot code 1:57:12.280 --> 1:57:14.280 this game. We all have things to do we don't 1:57:14.320 --> 1:57:20.240 want to do. Oh gosh, alright, I'm so sorry, Garrison, 1:57:20.760 --> 1:57:24.280 so sorry. Well have you code some other people's books 1:57:24.360 --> 1:57:29.440 just to get stuff? No more coding. I will not 1:57:29.640 --> 1:57:32.880 allow it. There are there, there are experts who can 1:57:32.960 --> 1:57:34.640 do this a lot prettier than I can with my 1:57:34.840 --> 1:57:38.720 I think, Garrison, I consider you an expert. Now Ope, no, 1:57:39.720 --> 1:57:42.280 in in in E pub coding. I'll put that on 1:57:42.360 --> 1:57:49.240 my resume. Well, I think that does it for us today. Folks. 1:57:49.360 --> 1:57:51.400 If you want to follow us on social media so 1:57:51.480 --> 1:57:54.560 you can watch us promote our own shows again, you 1:57:54.640 --> 1:57:57.520 can go to Cool's own media on Twitter, Instagram and 1:57:57.560 --> 1:58:00.600 happen here pod And wouldn't that be level? We get 1:58:00.680 --> 1:58:03.720 so much more connections through online. That's wow? That really? Do? 1:58:04.240 --> 1:58:07.520 I love online? Yeah? And uh we're doing it behind 1:58:07.560 --> 1:58:12.480 the Bastards live stream digital show with prop on. That 1:58:12.560 --> 1:58:16.040 doesn't sound right, doesn't This bit is so not funny 1:58:16.200 --> 1:58:18.840 everything time, it's not a bit. I'm just dreading it. 1:58:19.040 --> 1:58:24.480 I'm dreading it to but we're doing it. February moment 1:58:24.560 --> 1:58:28.960 House dot Com tickets still available. They are a moment 1:58:29.000 --> 1:58:32.320 how come slash behind the bastards. Can I scalpel them 1:58:32.320 --> 1:58:38.120 to the fans? I to get in there. Scarcity is 1:58:38.560 --> 1:58:43.680 the key. Well do that if you have disposable income 1:58:43.760 --> 1:58:47.720 and want to watch Roberts talk. Yeah, yeah, more than 1:58:47.800 --> 1:58:52.280 we already do. I guarantee you it'll be worth it. Well, 1:58:52.360 --> 1:58:54.440 that's the episode. Thank you for listening. I hope everyone 1:58:54.600 --> 1:59:00.800 has uh better that would be not And I hope 1:59:00.840 --> 1:59:04.200 everyone has an identical two down to the day and 1:59:04.520 --> 1:59:07.080 until in May you realize that you're actually in like 1:59:07.160 --> 1:59:10.880 a groundhog Day style loop. Um, and then you would 1:59:10.880 --> 1:59:14.320 achieve nirvana if I'm remembering how the movie groundhog Day 1:59:14.520 --> 1:59:20.040 went properly. Sure, Uh yeah, that sounds that sounds great. 1:59:20.280 --> 1:59:24.600 Have a good year, make some changes, make connections with 1:59:24.720 --> 1:59:27.240 people around you. There there, you just just define them. 1:59:27.640 --> 1:59:30.200 Talk to people who look like they have cool politics 1:59:30.960 --> 1:59:33.840 or or start doing cool things, you know, and started 1:59:33.880 --> 1:59:36.240 starting start doing cool things. Yeah. We should address one 1:59:36.320 --> 1:59:38.520 last thing, which is the question people ask that gets 1:59:38.560 --> 1:59:42.040 asked a lot, but we probably can't address enough, which 1:59:42.160 --> 1:59:44.720 is like, there's no one around me doing any of 1:59:44.800 --> 1:59:47.400 this mutual aid stuff. There's nobody around me engaging any 1:59:47.440 --> 1:59:48.520 of the stuff that I want to get how do 1:59:48.640 --> 1:59:50.920 how do I get organized and get involved? Number one, 1:59:51.200 --> 1:59:53.040 there are people around you doing that kind of ship. 1:59:53.120 --> 1:59:55.120 It may just be hard to find because of where 1:59:55.160 --> 1:59:59.560 you are. UM. But if you start doing ship, if 1:59:59.600 --> 2:00:02.800 you like, the simplest thing I can say is try 2:00:02.840 --> 2:00:05.440 and figure out where there's a need and start filling 2:00:05.480 --> 2:00:09.040 it UM. Often you will start meeting other people who 2:00:09.120 --> 2:00:13.040 are engaged in adjacent projects or even the same thing UM. 2:00:13.280 --> 2:00:15.760 And that's a way to get into it. If you 2:00:15.880 --> 2:00:20.800 are trying to start. If you actually get so far 2:00:20.880 --> 2:00:23.320 as to start serving a need in your area in 2:00:23.400 --> 2:00:27.040 a mutual aid capacity UM and trying to start organizing 2:00:27.080 --> 2:00:29.600 and whatnot, and you're doing shit, feel free to hit 2:00:29.680 --> 2:00:32.440 us up on email reach out. We are happy to signal, 2:00:32.520 --> 2:00:36.080 boost and signpost people who are have actually started doing 2:00:36.160 --> 2:00:39.000 shit UM. It's one of those things. Please don't come 2:00:39.040 --> 2:00:41.480 to I think this might be a cool idea. But 2:00:41.560 --> 2:00:44.640 if you start doing shit UM, and you can provide 2:00:44.640 --> 2:00:47.560 some evidence that you're you're doing something in your community 2:00:47.640 --> 2:00:50.200 that's not currently being done that is a mutual aid 2:00:50.240 --> 2:00:52.480 type thing, or even even a charitable type thing. If 2:00:52.560 --> 2:00:55.360 it's if you're doing it, we will try to help 2:00:55.720 --> 2:00:59.600 signal boost and and can be very useful in that capacity. 2:00:59.680 --> 2:01:05.120 So so it's not easy necessarily, especially depending on where 2:01:05.160 --> 2:01:08.480 you live. But like you do, it's always possible to 2:01:09.240 --> 2:01:12.840 find a need and fill it, you know. Yeah, I 2:01:13.000 --> 2:01:17.520 found that uh uh definitely was easier before the pandemic. 2:01:17.600 --> 2:01:20.360 But a way that I've met people that are a 2:01:20.440 --> 2:01:23.400 little bit more open minded to the same things that 2:01:23.440 --> 2:01:26.879 I'm open minded too is going to like local comedy 2:01:26.960 --> 2:01:30.400 shows or things things that comedy shows I'm guessing like 2:01:30.800 --> 2:01:35.800 farmers markets, farmers you know, wherever kind of weird not 2:01:36.720 --> 2:01:39.640 not in the normal culture people will go to. You'll 2:01:39.640 --> 2:01:42.760 probably find someone there with radical politics, and yeah, that's 2:01:42.800 --> 2:01:47.880 problem all those types of like like you know, countercultural 2:01:48.040 --> 2:01:51.520 subcultural spaces. You'll probably find someone there who's wearing a 2:01:51.560 --> 2:01:55.080 back patch that is something like smashed or something. You know, 2:01:55.440 --> 2:01:57.920 So like just like you you have to you know, 2:01:58.160 --> 2:02:00.400 you're not going to find them by staying at your 2:02:00.560 --> 2:02:02.960 in your house and scrolling on Twitter. They probably not. 2:02:03.120 --> 2:02:04.560 You have to kind of go into the real world, 2:02:05.200 --> 2:02:09.080 um as scary as the meat space maybe, yeah, And 2:02:09.320 --> 2:02:11.800 I would say another thing to keep in mind if 2:02:11.840 --> 2:02:14.240 you are in kind of a more conservative area. And 2:02:14.480 --> 2:02:17.320 even if you do identify as an anarchist, you don't 2:02:17.360 --> 2:02:19.440 have to frame it that way. You can always call 2:02:19.520 --> 2:02:22.640 yourself a libertarian municipal list and none of the people 2:02:22.720 --> 2:02:26.360 who might be offended by anarchists will listen past libertarian 2:02:26.440 --> 2:02:28.880 and they'll decide you're fine. And that's a great way 2:02:28.920 --> 2:02:35.600 to to start that. Uh, ironic means the same thing, 2:02:35.800 --> 2:02:38.200 more or less. I mean, there's other kinds of anarchists 2:02:38.240 --> 2:02:41.000 who are But like most people who say they're anarchists, 2:02:41.400 --> 2:02:45.040 if you were to call them libertarian municipalists would be like, 2:02:45.120 --> 2:02:47.360 all right, whatever, yeah, not me, don't call me that. 2:02:47.800 --> 2:02:53.680 But I call call Chris that constantly. That's that's that's that's, 2:02:53.720 --> 2:02:57.520 that's it. We'll be back tomorrow or maybe not. I 2:02:57.600 --> 2:03:01.640 don't know, probably tomorrow maybe Yep. That's what I'm saying. 2:03:01.720 --> 2:03:18.040 And it's been said, say so, this is gonna be ship, 2:03:18.280 --> 2:03:20.880 this is gonna suck, this is gonna be trash, because 2:03:20.920 --> 2:03:23.040 no one knows what's gonna happen. I have not actually 2:03:23.120 --> 2:03:26.720 come up with a prediction yet. I don't know this one. 2:03:28.040 --> 2:03:29.960 Have I hoped one that I came up with before 2:03:30.000 --> 2:03:34.520 the show. Have we have we opened it. Yeah, we've 2:03:34.560 --> 2:03:38.360 already started. Um, we were supposed to. This is it 2:03:38.600 --> 2:03:42.280 happen here? Everybody podcast things falling apart? How to maybe 2:03:42.400 --> 2:03:46.000 make them fall apart less? Um, Sophie pitched the great 2:03:46.080 --> 2:03:48.680 idea of why don't we do an episode that is 2:03:49.160 --> 2:03:52.760 our predictions? It's really not my idea when people ask, 2:03:52.920 --> 2:03:58.720 so this is Sophie's idea that she's been Sophie's idea alone. 2:03:58.840 --> 2:04:01.560 It's sprang fully formed from the side of her head, 2:04:01.680 --> 2:04:05.360 like Athena from Zeuss skull um. And we all agreed 2:04:05.400 --> 2:04:07.120 it was a good idea for an episode. And then 2:04:07.480 --> 2:04:09.400 I did not come up with the prediction. Did you 2:04:09.480 --> 2:04:12.600 get that's a bit of time thinking about not a second, 2:04:12.680 --> 2:04:15.880 not even absolutely love the Athena Zeus reference. That's how 2:04:15.920 --> 2:04:19.160 I tell people I got Anderson. Yeah, Well, my prediction 2:04:19.240 --> 2:04:20.960 for the year is that I'm going to keep making 2:04:21.000 --> 2:04:24.080 references to Athena whenever I do something that pisses Sophie off, 2:04:24.160 --> 2:04:28.080 so that she' I will it will absolutely work. Yeah, 2:04:28.160 --> 2:04:35.120 that's my prediction for prediction. Uh, okay, okay, okay, wait 2:04:35.400 --> 2:04:38.680 before we go into the to the to the big, 2:04:38.840 --> 2:04:43.800 Bigger thing, I want everybody to give one word prediction 2:04:44.440 --> 2:04:48.360 for how you would describe this coming here. One word 2:04:48.400 --> 2:04:59.160 prediction borning an f t H. I was just gonna 2:04:59.200 --> 2:05:03.840 say fucked. But I don't think because it's gonna be 2:05:03.960 --> 2:05:07.080 hot too, I don't think it's going to be that fun. Actually, 2:05:07.520 --> 2:05:12.000 I think I was gonna say mediocre. Yeah, I'm I'm 2:05:12.080 --> 2:05:19.680 foreseeing a lot of blandness, a lot of blandness. My here, 2:05:19.800 --> 2:05:23.560 here's a prediction I'll make. I think that one of 2:05:23.600 --> 2:05:25.840 the things that we were seeing last year, especially in 2:05:25.920 --> 2:05:28.480 the streets, with like the far right being so much 2:05:28.560 --> 2:05:33.280 more uh active um than the left in a lot 2:05:33.320 --> 2:05:35.280 of places and in a lot of ways, is UM 2:05:37.160 --> 2:05:39.640 really tired. A lot of people on the left out, 2:05:39.680 --> 2:05:42.200 a lot of organizers, a lot of street level people. UM. 2:05:42.480 --> 2:05:46.000 Not just like oh I'm tired, but like I was injured, Um, 2:05:46.120 --> 2:05:50.400 I'm fighting charges. My funds were depleted. I had to 2:05:50.880 --> 2:05:53.120 I couldn't keep going out because I have a family 2:05:53.200 --> 2:05:55.560 and I had to deal with that sort of ship. UM. 2:05:55.960 --> 2:05:59.240 And I think I don't think that energy is back yet, 2:05:59.320 --> 2:06:01.480 but it always ebbs and flows, and it does on 2:06:01.640 --> 2:06:04.000 both sides, because at the end of the day, whether 2:06:04.040 --> 2:06:07.520 you're a fascist or a progressive people have X amount 2:06:07.560 --> 2:06:10.680 of energy, you know, um, and I think we are. 2:06:11.680 --> 2:06:14.160 I believe we are kind of at the beginning process 2:06:14.400 --> 2:06:17.120 of folks on the left starting to recover some of 2:06:17.240 --> 2:06:20.480 that energy. Um. And I think that that is a 2:06:20.560 --> 2:06:24.120 process we're going to see building throughout the year. UM. 2:06:24.760 --> 2:06:26.960 I don't agree with that. Yeah, yeah, And it will 2:06:26.960 --> 2:06:29.040 be a multi year process. And I'm I'm kind of 2:06:29.120 --> 2:06:33.480 hoping folks are ready to throw down again. But but 2:06:33.640 --> 2:06:36.840 we'll see like where that goes. We might have like 2:06:37.440 --> 2:06:40.839 a few days of people throwing down in the streets 2:06:40.920 --> 2:06:45.320 for some reason, like something bad may happen, like like 2:06:45.560 --> 2:06:48.560 late summer. I I can I can definitely see like 2:06:48.680 --> 2:06:50.720 a few days in July or all gust where it's like, 2:06:50.800 --> 2:06:52.720 oh is the thing starting again, and it goes on 2:06:52.840 --> 2:06:54.240 for a bit and then it kind of peters out. 2:06:54.520 --> 2:06:58.320 I kind of I definitely see that being a decent possibility, um, 2:06:58.520 --> 2:07:00.480 because yeah, I think there will be more energy for 2:07:00.600 --> 2:07:05.760 that this year and more mental like like like ability 2:07:05.840 --> 2:07:09.480 to to do to do that this year than yeah. 2:07:10.200 --> 2:07:13.560 But overall, I don't see anything super eventful, and I 2:07:13.600 --> 2:07:16.080 hopefully just doesn't like drink anything and then we get no. 2:07:16.240 --> 2:07:20.360 I mean, my my big eventful prediction is that, and 2:07:20.560 --> 2:07:22.760 I will explain what this is based on in a bit. 2:07:23.240 --> 2:07:26.320 I think we are going to see a significant sized 2:07:26.440 --> 2:07:31.640 urban metropolitan area be rendered uninhabitable, either permanently or for 2:07:31.680 --> 2:07:34.280 a significant period of time in the United States due 2:07:34.320 --> 2:07:36.120 to climate change. And part of what this is based 2:07:36.160 --> 2:07:40.280 on is the December wildfires that just destroyed a significant 2:07:40.360 --> 2:07:43.200 chunk of Boulder, Colorado. Right not talking about like New 2:07:43.280 --> 2:07:45.080 York City gets swallowed by the waves, but like a 2:07:45.160 --> 2:07:48.440 place where there's a couple hundred thousand people living, they're 2:07:48.440 --> 2:07:51.480 not able to be for either ever or an extended 2:07:51.520 --> 2:07:55.480 period of time because a climate based disaster hits. Um. 2:07:55.920 --> 2:07:58.360 Maybe it'll be a heat dome type thing. Maybe it'll 2:07:58.360 --> 2:08:01.760 be like a wet bulb event, maybe be um fires. 2:08:01.920 --> 2:08:05.440 Obviously always possible, hurricane tornado. You know, we we saw 2:08:05.680 --> 2:08:07.480 enough just in the last couple of months in terms 2:08:07.520 --> 2:08:09.760 of those, like record hurricanes that killed like a hundred 2:08:09.800 --> 2:08:13.240 people in um in the South, or the fires sweeping 2:08:13.400 --> 2:08:17.640 Boulder right now and again fucking December. UM. But but 2:08:17.720 --> 2:08:19.760 I do think there's a pretty good chance we see 2:08:19.800 --> 2:08:25.280 something like that this year. I think my big one 2:08:25.560 --> 2:08:28.320 is that I mean, okay, so the the the obvious 2:08:28.440 --> 2:08:30.720 freebe is that we're gonna cross a million COVID deaths 2:08:30.880 --> 2:08:32.960 or like the the the official count. We were like 2:08:33.080 --> 2:08:36.480 we we've had ward US count hit. That's that's the 2:08:36.560 --> 2:08:39.480 free b. The not free b is that like it's 2:08:39.480 --> 2:08:42.240 not even a prediction. If that's that's that's that's what. 2:08:42.680 --> 2:08:45.600 I think. It's going to be warm in the summertime. Yeah, 2:08:45.760 --> 2:08:47.840 like you know, and the warm in the summertime is 2:08:47.840 --> 2:08:51.800 probably like a bigger gamble at this point than very 2:08:52.200 --> 2:08:54.880 very warm, but the summer st yeah. But but but 2:08:55.000 --> 2:08:57.600 I think the real thing is that like there there 2:08:57.760 --> 2:08:59.160 is never going to be never locked down the U 2:08:59.320 --> 2:09:04.000 S never, like you of the United States could die 2:09:04.200 --> 2:09:07.680 and there would be no lockdown, like and this is 2:09:07.920 --> 2:09:09.480 you know, and I think this this is the result 2:09:09.680 --> 2:09:12.640 of I don't know, I wonder what you do do this. 2:09:13.080 --> 2:09:15.840 My thesis for what was going on was that like 2:09:17.240 --> 2:09:21.760 I actually think the like the like Liberate Wisconsin stuff, 2:09:21.760 --> 2:09:25.560 I think that actually worked. Like those number they were 2:09:25.560 --> 2:09:27.520 all those giant like like a mount of people show 2:09:27.600 --> 2:09:29.840 up with guns to captain absolutely it worked. Yeah, yeah, 2:09:29.880 --> 2:09:31.640 it worked, and it was like and but but they 2:09:31.680 --> 2:09:35.200 did they did works. It's a very effective way to 2:09:35.240 --> 2:09:37.920 get things done well. But I think there's an important 2:09:37.960 --> 2:09:40.840 lesson here though, which is that, like, so the state 2:09:40.960 --> 2:09:43.880 will never like very very rarely will the state ever 2:09:44.080 --> 2:09:49.560 like directly like they they won't immediately back down. Right. 2:09:49.640 --> 2:09:52.360 What they'll do is like they'll make an enormous show 2:09:52.400 --> 2:09:54.080 about how they didn't grant any concessions, and then they 2:09:54.080 --> 2:09:56.040 will grant concessions. Like this is the thing with the 2:09:56.120 --> 2:09:57.840 riots rights, Like people are talking about, why do we 2:09:57.880 --> 2:09:59.480 not there's not gonna any more stimulus checks, right, And 2:09:59.480 --> 2:10:00.960 the reason there's not going the more simular checks because 2:10:01.000 --> 2:10:05.160 nobody's writing and you know, like what kind of stimulus 2:10:05.240 --> 2:10:09.080 checks you get if a couple of targets get redacted. Yeah, 2:10:09.200 --> 2:10:10.760 like you know if if if if you burn down 2:10:10.800 --> 2:10:13.240 another police station, we will get more stimulus checks. It's 2:10:13.280 --> 2:10:14.560 just that you have to you know, there has to 2:10:14.560 --> 2:10:17.240 be another police station burned down. Right, But like this 2:10:17.360 --> 2:10:18.680 is and this is the this is the you know, 2:10:18.800 --> 2:10:20.960 the right was extremely effective at this, right, and in 2:10:21.040 --> 2:10:23.920 a way that people just don't really talk about, which 2:10:23.960 --> 2:10:26.000 is that it is now politically impossible in the US, 2:10:26.080 --> 2:10:27.960 Like no, no one, no one will ever do anover 2:10:28.040 --> 2:10:30.480 lockdown because people will show up with guns and they 2:10:30.520 --> 2:10:32.320 don't want to do that, and they've decided that just 2:10:32.560 --> 2:10:35.560 just just kill, just kill. Look, you know we we've 2:10:35.600 --> 2:10:38.640 already killed the entire population of Seattle, like they're dead. 2:10:38.760 --> 2:10:40.720 Like we'll just keep killing more people, more people, and 2:10:41.280 --> 2:10:43.920 just never. I think people often are going I think 2:10:43.920 --> 2:10:48.360 people on the left attack the Biden's COVID response for 2:10:48.360 --> 2:10:50.280 a lot of the wrong things. Like the thing that 2:10:50.400 --> 2:10:53.040 I I would go after him for is like, yeah, 2:10:53.080 --> 2:10:55.480 we didn't he didn't just say here's a bunch of money, 2:10:56.320 --> 2:10:58.320 don't go to work, We're not going back to school, 2:10:58.560 --> 2:11:01.080 Like stay at home is a pile of cash, which 2:11:01.240 --> 2:11:04.160 might have worked, it was worth a shot, But past that, 2:11:05.080 --> 2:11:07.400 a lot of this was beyond. By the time he 2:11:07.520 --> 2:11:13.440 came into office, the the armed militant cultural movement against 2:11:13.480 --> 2:11:16.040 the idea of COVID precautions was so advanced that like 2:11:16.920 --> 2:11:20.160 what do you what? What? What more could have been 2:11:20.280 --> 2:11:23.120 realistically done other than trying to give people enough money 2:11:23.160 --> 2:11:25.000 again to actually stay home, which again is the thing 2:11:25.040 --> 2:11:27.160 I think it's most fair to attack him on. Like okay, 2:11:27.200 --> 2:11:31.000 I mean like ships beyond Biden and a lot but 2:11:31.120 --> 2:11:33.800 like like I don't, like, okay, it was like, well, 2:11:33.840 --> 2:11:36.000 what could have been done? I don't know, like if 2:11:36.040 --> 2:11:37.880 you're looking from the perspection of the state, they could 2:11:37.920 --> 2:11:40.320 actually have deployed the intelligence services against them instead of 2:11:40.360 --> 2:11:43.240 doing like one dumb and trapment plot, right, Like well sure, 2:11:43.320 --> 2:11:46.320 but that's that's also that starts before Biden and by 2:11:46.400 --> 2:11:49.160 again by the time, I mean it's like you know, 2:11:49.280 --> 2:11:50.760 but like like yeah, I called her bluff, right, have 2:11:50.800 --> 2:11:52.480 wht people show up to the capital and then it's like, okay, 2:11:52.520 --> 2:11:54.440 here's the FBI, like like that that that's a thing 2:11:54.560 --> 2:11:56.640 that like if if you're a liberal status you could 2:11:56.760 --> 2:12:00.560 do and they just don't want to because like partially 2:12:00.600 --> 2:12:02.160 I don't want the conflict of partially because it would 2:12:02.200 --> 2:12:04.040 actually it would look like it would look really bad 2:12:04.120 --> 2:12:06.040 for them heading into the midterms. It would look so 2:12:06.160 --> 2:12:08.480 they're bad. And and also I think this is less 2:12:08.480 --> 2:12:11.440 the FBI is kind of much more centrist in terms 2:12:11.480 --> 2:12:14.000 of their politics as an agency. But like there were 2:12:14.000 --> 2:12:17.920 a lot of state Yeah, well, I mean the most 2:12:18.000 --> 2:12:19.680 federal and state, Like I don't know that they can 2:12:19.720 --> 2:12:22.720 rely on them like they do that they can even 2:12:22.840 --> 2:12:24.600 even the FBI, it's like, yeah, they're using the proud 2:12:24.640 --> 2:12:28.560 ways informants like on against synarchists, Like yeah, so yeah, 2:12:28.640 --> 2:12:33.520 like they're not they're not, They're not like the I 2:12:33.640 --> 2:12:35.600 have an appreciation. What I will say is I have 2:12:35.640 --> 2:12:38.160 an appreciation for the fact that by the time Biden 2:12:38.280 --> 2:12:41.400 was in office it may have been an unsolvable problem, 2:12:41.480 --> 2:12:43.040 which doesn't let him off the hook for things that 2:12:43.080 --> 2:12:47.240 were objectively bad decisions like not doing ship for stimulus, um, 2:12:47.760 --> 2:12:50.880 like pushing to open the schools, like you know a 2:12:50.960 --> 2:12:52.720 number of other things that he's done, but also like 2:12:53.520 --> 2:12:55.520 if he had done all of the right things, we 2:12:55.640 --> 2:12:58.000 still might be at exactly this death toll because there 2:12:58.040 --> 2:13:00.680 are cultural issues here that we're very advanced by the 2:13:00.760 --> 2:13:04.840 time he took office. Um. And I do think like 2:13:04.960 --> 2:13:06.880 it's whatever. I'm not I'm not saying this to let 2:13:06.920 --> 2:13:09.000 Biden off the hook or support the Democratic Party. I'm 2:13:09.000 --> 2:13:11.000 saying this because people need to have an accurate conception 2:13:11.040 --> 2:13:13.760 of the problem. Um. And the problem is so much 2:13:13.840 --> 2:13:16.840 deeper than what a technocrat could have handled by making 2:13:16.920 --> 2:13:28.960 smart policy. At break a break and we're back. Actual 2:13:29.000 --> 2:13:34.720 prediction Republicans will win the Senate. Yeah, which seems pretty 2:13:35.920 --> 2:13:39.440 I think there's a decent chance Democrats can keep the House. Um, 2:13:40.240 --> 2:13:42.320 but I'm pretty sure, and it's going to go back 2:13:42.360 --> 2:13:44.400 to the Republicans. I mean, they are damn near in 2:13:44.520 --> 2:13:48.320 control of the Senate as it is, but they Yeah, 2:13:48.600 --> 2:13:52.160 but I I do believe that's gonna happen. Um, And 2:13:52.360 --> 2:13:54.680 let's see other which yeah, it does does not seem 2:13:54.960 --> 2:13:58.320 that's not that far fetched of a thing. And I 2:13:58.360 --> 2:14:02.520 don't know, there'll be some other kind of tech factory 2:14:03.120 --> 2:14:08.760 the space between Elon Musk Peter Teel Silicon Valley, there's 2:14:08.760 --> 2:14:12.680 gonna be I think there's gonna be some worsening development 2:14:13.240 --> 2:14:18.280 of like tech like technocratic stuff, possibly in like possibly 2:14:18.400 --> 2:14:21.560 with like the mask of trying to like fix climate 2:14:21.640 --> 2:14:24.080 change or something. But I think they'll be a decent 2:14:24.280 --> 2:14:28.440 growth of tech power and possibly there like um cooperation 2:14:28.840 --> 2:14:31.560 with the state or the state like fund giving more 2:14:32.000 --> 2:14:35.080 explicit like funding and permission to tech power to like 2:14:35.320 --> 2:14:38.760 do terraforming or like some geongineering. Like there's there's gonna 2:14:38.760 --> 2:14:41.560 be something related to that sphere that is a it's 2:14:41.560 --> 2:14:44.120 going to get a lot more visible than it is. 2:14:44.920 --> 2:14:47.240 My big tech prediction is that there is going to 2:14:47.360 --> 2:14:49.880 be a crime against humanity at some point this year, 2:14:50.000 --> 2:14:52.560 like on a massive scale, not like just a mass shooting, 2:14:52.600 --> 2:14:55.320 but like a state level crime against humanity. And we're 2:14:55.360 --> 2:14:57.600 going to find out that for the last like eight months, 2:14:57.640 --> 2:15:01.000 Facebook had been paying the perpetrators asignificant amount of money 2:15:01.080 --> 2:15:03.360 as a result of like some ill thought out ad 2:15:03.560 --> 2:15:06.960 program that they had. Yeah, like we're going to we're 2:15:06.960 --> 2:15:10.160 going to leave to Facebook actively funding and ethnic cleansing. 2:15:10.920 --> 2:15:15.400 Um because some somebody thought up some sort of affiliate 2:15:15.480 --> 2:15:18.760 program that was not well conceived. Um. That's my fun 2:15:18.840 --> 2:15:23.080 tech industry prediction. My fun tech industry prediction is that, uh, 2:15:24.520 --> 2:15:28.240 Jeff Bezos will increasingly become the most cringe eest man 2:15:28.280 --> 2:15:32.400 in the world. Yeah, it is very funny that the 2:15:32.480 --> 2:15:35.320 picture him on New Year's he's just wearing a Dan 2:15:35.440 --> 2:15:38.600 Flash his shirt. He's he's absolutely wearing a Dan Flash 2:15:38.680 --> 2:15:41.920 his shirt. And that's incredibly fine. Robert, Robert, that shirt 2:15:42.000 --> 2:15:45.200 costs him three thousand dollars because the pattern is so 2:15:45.880 --> 2:15:49.920 very complicated and how much the lines crisscross. I I 2:15:50.880 --> 2:15:52.960 just I just don't like you insisting that it's not 2:15:53.040 --> 2:15:56.839 as much money. But despite its complicatedness, that that photo 2:15:57.280 --> 2:16:00.360 was my version of a holiday. Carnes said to for one, 2:16:00.440 --> 2:16:07.440 I know, um yeah, I think I think we're going 2:16:07.480 --> 2:16:10.000 to see a lot more unions this year. Yeah, that 2:16:10.160 --> 2:16:12.400 does seem to be a positive trend that we're seeing 2:16:12.520 --> 2:16:15.560 is a lot more unionization and some significant successes for 2:16:15.880 --> 2:16:20.480 and and a lot more like like general acceptance of 2:16:20.560 --> 2:16:23.680 the concept of a union. Other prediction related to to 2:16:23.760 --> 2:16:28.440 tech industry stuff, I think one of the billionaire space 2:16:29.120 --> 2:16:34.199 ships things is going to have a disastrous launch. Positive 2:16:34.240 --> 2:16:37.040 prediction of spaceship is gonna blow up with people inside 2:16:37.080 --> 2:16:38.840 it as it tries to take off. That's that's my 2:16:38.920 --> 2:16:42.200 positive prediction that it can take some people with it. Um, 2:16:42.800 --> 2:16:44.840 sorry to the people, Sorry to the workers who are 2:16:44.879 --> 2:16:47.320 going to be probably harmed at that, but it can 2:16:47.360 --> 2:16:49.680 take some people out. So it's gonna be funny. Um 2:16:50.680 --> 2:16:54.320 that is that's possibility. Also, uh, there's gonna be a 2:16:54.879 --> 2:17:00.520 there's gonna be a disastrous effect around Austin, is right, 2:17:00.520 --> 2:17:02.199 and that's where that's where a lot of the spacehip 2:17:02.240 --> 2:17:04.160 stuff is getting set up. There's no, no, no, no, 2:17:04.320 --> 2:17:07.400 it's that's just where the offices are. It's like Chica, 2:17:07.560 --> 2:17:10.480 it's like on the coast of Texas, not close enough 2:17:10.520 --> 2:17:13.160 to Austin. Some some piece of a spaceship is gonna 2:17:13.160 --> 2:17:16.039 fly through someone's house. No one's gonna care about it. Um, 2:17:16.800 --> 2:17:18.680 there gets brought, gonna kill a family or something, No 2:17:18.760 --> 2:17:21.680 one's gonna care. Nothing's gonna happen. It'll be fine that 2:17:21.959 --> 2:17:25.120 Those are my more my tech industry predictions related to 2:17:26.000 --> 2:17:30.240 spaceship stuff. Yeah, um yeah. I I also think on 2:17:30.400 --> 2:17:34.520 on a more I don't know how the current civil 2:17:34.560 --> 2:17:38.360 war in Myanmar is going to shake out, but I 2:17:40.120 --> 2:17:43.240 think there's a chance that it becomes the first kay 2:17:43.560 --> 2:17:47.440 place where there is a successful or at least partially 2:17:47.520 --> 2:17:52.039 successful revolutionary movement that is to a significant extent armed 2:17:52.120 --> 2:17:56.320 via three D printed weaponry. Um. They've all we've already 2:17:56.360 --> 2:18:00.400 seen a lot of that deployed by um, the the 2:18:00.480 --> 2:18:04.720 rebels in Myanmar. Um. I'm interested in watching that because 2:18:04.760 --> 2:18:06.959 it's kind of the first time we've seen that technology 2:18:07.160 --> 2:18:10.360 used on a meaningful scale by people that aren't like 2:18:10.520 --> 2:18:14.600 organized crime. UM. And yeah, I think it's still too 2:18:14.640 --> 2:18:16.520 early to tell, like how much of an actual like 2:18:16.640 --> 2:18:18.680 whether or not it's just kind of a distraction from 2:18:19.320 --> 2:18:22.440 the more meaningful aspects of the struggle or the more 2:18:22.520 --> 2:18:26.560 meaningful like kind of deployments of weaponry and other tools 2:18:26.600 --> 2:18:28.160 in the struggle, or whether or not it will actually 2:18:28.200 --> 2:18:30.680 play a significant role in the armed struggle. But it's 2:18:30.760 --> 2:18:33.680 it's very much worth watching if you're somebody who pays 2:18:33.680 --> 2:18:38.680 attention to insurgent movements and what is increasingly possible as 2:18:38.680 --> 2:18:45.960 a result of new technology. I have another really bad prediction. 2:18:47.480 --> 2:18:49.080 J K. Rowling is going to release a book on 2:18:49.160 --> 2:18:57.240 gender orcial fund to YouTube channel, yeah something. I think. 2:18:57.520 --> 2:18:59.600 I think there's a decent chance she has been writing 2:18:59.640 --> 2:19:01.880 a book about gender and she's going to release in 2:19:02.560 --> 2:19:05.880 two I think that as an actual, actual series prediction. 2:19:06.560 --> 2:19:10.480 Just go away and a whole bunch of liberal moms 2:19:10.520 --> 2:19:12.280 are gonna buy it for each other and they're gonna 2:19:12.320 --> 2:19:15.440 read it, and it's gonna be bad. And that is 2:19:15.680 --> 2:19:20.080 that is my that's my that's my horrible prediction. She 2:19:20.160 --> 2:19:23.240 could be so beloved if she had limited her comments 2:19:23.360 --> 2:19:26.320 after publishing Harry Potter, if she repeatedly telling people that 2:19:26.800 --> 2:19:29.879 are constantly shifting their pants, if she just didn't use 2:19:30.000 --> 2:19:33.240 Twitter after anything at all, and she could have been 2:19:33.440 --> 2:19:36.040 a different person. It's it's the Dave Chappelle thing. Just 2:19:36.120 --> 2:19:38.520 stay off. We all we all would have loved you. Forever. 2:19:38.640 --> 2:19:40.959 If you just just gone off and counted your money 2:19:41.000 --> 2:19:44.959 and left us alone. Yeah, go be rich somewhere. It's 2:19:45.000 --> 2:19:47.240 fine to be done. It's fine to be done being 2:19:47.320 --> 2:19:50.080 famous and influential. You you had, you did great, You 2:19:50.160 --> 2:19:53.920 did great. You never needed to come back. She I 2:19:54.000 --> 2:19:56.440 don't she did. I'm not sure if she did great? 2:19:56.560 --> 2:20:00.440 She did? She did, she did. Look again, this is 2:20:00.480 --> 2:20:03.240 all colored. But if she had never come back into 2:20:03.280 --> 2:20:04.680 the public eye, all it would have been as like 2:20:04.760 --> 2:20:06.879 you remember that lady who got like twelve year olds 2:20:06.920 --> 2:20:10.000 to read seven d page books that one time, Like, 2:20:10.160 --> 2:20:12.720 people would not be as critical of the actual content 2:20:12.800 --> 2:20:17.119 of the Harry Potter books if she just hadn't kept 2:20:17.520 --> 2:20:21.640 coming back and saying ship so that and and and 2:20:21.879 --> 2:20:25.560 and then like didn't stop and then did not stop, 2:20:25.760 --> 2:20:29.560 and then was told bad, really really bad, and then 2:20:29.680 --> 2:20:31.959 kept doing it and kept doing it, and kept doing 2:20:32.000 --> 2:20:36.440 it and kept doing it. You know what people should beat. Look, 2:20:36.520 --> 2:20:38.560 if you're if you're listening to this and you're a 2:20:38.640 --> 2:20:41.880 millionaire who was like hugely popular for some cultural reason 2:20:41.920 --> 2:20:44.840 in the late nineties and early two thousand's, think about 2:20:44.920 --> 2:20:50.600 Bill Waterson. Bill Waterson ends the most popular comic strip 2:20:50.720 --> 2:20:54.040 in the history of comics and spends the rest of 2:20:54.160 --> 2:20:57.560 his life and fucking Iowa painting landscapes and never talks 2:20:57.640 --> 2:21:01.640 to anybody with a platform again, and I everybody loves 2:21:01.680 --> 2:21:04.920 Bill Waterson. Like not a single person has a criticism 2:21:05.000 --> 2:21:08.040 of Bill Waterson. Um, just do that, Just do what 2:21:08.200 --> 2:21:10.840 he did. Just go paint landscapes in Iowa and don't 2:21:10.879 --> 2:21:14.480 talk to journalists or get on Twitter. It's fine. Does 2:21:14.520 --> 2:21:17.600 Bill Waterson believe regressive things about gender? Nobody knows because 2:21:17.600 --> 2:21:21.200 he doesn't say anything. I think another prediction that is 2:21:21.200 --> 2:21:25.440 actually decently possible. I think we will get more and 2:21:25.520 --> 2:21:30.440 more cities and or states to decriminalize hard drugs in 2:21:30.800 --> 2:21:35.280 in certain possession amounts. Um. I think there is a 2:21:35.400 --> 2:21:39.000 there's a number of bills going around California, UM and 2:21:39.080 --> 2:21:41.320 a lot of other states, and I believe that will 2:21:41.360 --> 2:21:44.080 be start to become more and more common, which will 2:21:44.080 --> 2:21:46.480 be great. It would be nice if they get legalized. 2:21:46.600 --> 2:21:51.560 But you know, get get get what you can for now. Um. Yeah, 2:21:52.840 --> 2:21:58.840 speaking of drugs, Uh, here's CDD oil sponsored by heroin, 2:21:59.240 --> 2:22:02.400 by by big drug. Here we go have fun to 2:22:02.440 --> 2:22:05.200 stay safe. We're back, and I just want to let 2:22:05.240 --> 2:22:10.280 everybody know that if if everything gets legalized, we will 2:22:10.440 --> 2:22:13.680 be sponsored by meth amphetamines so fucking quickly it will 2:22:13.720 --> 2:22:15.680 make your head spin. I will never turn down a 2:22:15.800 --> 2:22:18.840 drug sponsor, um, except for like super foods. We don't 2:22:18.879 --> 2:22:22.080 do super foods, we don't do brain pills. But heroin. 2:22:22.280 --> 2:22:25.080 I would advertise the ship out of heroin. I'm already 2:22:25.160 --> 2:22:28.840 ready to advertise hair the hair lost. Drugs we don't do, 2:22:29.680 --> 2:22:35.520 but heroin. H Hey, is life depressing? You know it? 2:22:37.480 --> 2:22:41.640 He hated that I helped that bit. Uh, Chris, you 2:22:41.720 --> 2:22:45.000 were you were saying something before break My My one 2:22:45.040 --> 2:22:49.680 serious prediction is I don't think we've I think we're 2:22:49.840 --> 2:22:53.080 gonna get one more big like Latin American uprising, and 2:22:53.120 --> 2:22:55.240 it will not be in Argentina. I have been eating 2:22:55.280 --> 2:22:58.040 ship for three goddamn years predicting it's gonna be Argentina. 2:22:58.240 --> 2:22:59.960 It's like, oh, they're getting an IMF bailout, Like, oh, 2:23:00.120 --> 2:23:01.960 it's never Argentina. It won't be Argentina. It will be 2:23:02.000 --> 2:23:05.080 somewhere else. But someone is someone is going to spend 2:23:05.280 --> 2:23:08.160 like two months doing a bunch of stuff that's extremely 2:23:08.240 --> 2:23:12.600 cool outside of Argentina. I kind of think, Um, I 2:23:12.640 --> 2:23:14.240 don't know I'll be interested to see what happens in 2:23:14.280 --> 2:23:17.680 Brazil because um, it's hard to get a sense for 2:23:17.720 --> 2:23:22.080 the exact numbers, but there's potential there. There is potential 2:23:22.120 --> 2:23:24.240 there with what's happened in Bolivia and what's happened in Chile. 2:23:24.400 --> 2:23:30.920 There's there's momentum in its exciting broad area. Like I mean, 2:23:31.120 --> 2:23:34.240 like the os there's shoot, there's like enormous protests in 2:23:34.320 --> 2:23:37.080 Brazil like all the time. Yeah, yeah, there's like massive, 2:23:37.120 --> 2:23:39.960 it just hasn't sort of like like it hasn't turned 2:23:40.000 --> 2:23:43.400 into like everyone fighting the cops and like yeah, and 2:23:43.760 --> 2:23:47.520 maybe I don't know if it will because like I 2:23:47.560 --> 2:23:49.040 don't know. I mean, this is this is This is 2:23:49.160 --> 2:23:53.360 my vibes based interpretation of it. But it feels like 2:23:53.600 --> 2:23:57.040 the Workers Party has enough of a handle on the 2:23:57.120 --> 2:24:00.240 protests that they're not gonna sort of like explore load 2:24:01.000 --> 2:24:03.480 because the PC just wants to win its election and 2:24:03.920 --> 2:24:07.160 get out of bulson Aro. Well yeah, and I mean 2:24:07.640 --> 2:24:11.279 the possibility of any kind of like actual revolutionary insurrection 2:24:11.320 --> 2:24:16.080 anything relies heavily on like that path not working for people, 2:24:16.360 --> 2:24:18.160 Like they're not that they're not being that kind of safety. 2:24:18.160 --> 2:24:20.000 But well, I mean I say this if they arrest 2:24:20.120 --> 2:24:23.800 Lula again, Like yeah, I don't think Bolson like I 2:24:23.840 --> 2:24:26.560 think there will die in his own ship, Like yeah, 2:24:27.160 --> 2:24:29.840 that might happen even if his party stays in power. 2:24:29.879 --> 2:24:32.920 I mean that he was actively dying as we record 2:24:33.000 --> 2:24:37.200 this episode, which is very funny. Um, I got as 2:24:37.240 --> 2:24:39.600 a result of one of our ad campaigns, several or 2:24:39.640 --> 2:24:43.119 a picture frames uh this year, and right now we're 2:24:43.160 --> 2:24:45.680 loading one up. That's just pictures of sick Bulson narrow 2:24:45.720 --> 2:24:48.240 to keep in my living room. So anytime I walk past, 2:24:48.320 --> 2:24:50.600 I can look at JayR. Bolson naro and hacking up 2:24:50.600 --> 2:24:53.320 a lung or having ships sucked out of his nose 2:24:53.400 --> 2:24:57.440 from a tube. Um, I will say, oh, by my 2:24:57.720 --> 2:25:00.040 one more. Like very fast prediction about this is that 2:25:00.080 --> 2:25:03.560 Kissinger is gonna live. He's not gonna die. Damnit, Chris. 2:25:05.680 --> 2:25:09.680 You allow myself to hope for one for about I 2:25:09.680 --> 2:25:11.320 allow myself to hope for about eight hours, and I 2:25:11.360 --> 2:25:15.120 think it's gonna live, but immediately wrong. I don't know. 2:25:15.640 --> 2:25:18.119 It would have been pretty cool if Betty White's last 2:25:18.160 --> 2:25:24.320 action had been some sort of anti takeout Kissinger. She 2:25:24.840 --> 2:25:27.360 becomes the most loved American and human history, like goes 2:25:27.440 --> 2:25:30.080 out just like jumping out of an airplane, like she 2:25:30.320 --> 2:25:39.280 parachutes Kissinger's house with a Flansing knife. I'm gonna say, 2:25:39.520 --> 2:25:43.160 in Colorado, Oregon, or Washington, we're going to get our 2:25:43.240 --> 2:25:48.640 first safe uh drug injections side opened. I know they've 2:25:48.640 --> 2:25:51.160 been very pretty good. They've been They've been very successful 2:25:51.400 --> 2:25:55.840 inside different parts of Canada, specifically Vancouver, BC. And I 2:25:55.920 --> 2:25:57.760 believe one of those three states is going to get 2:25:57.760 --> 2:25:59.920 the first one. Um. I hope it's all of them. 2:26:00.400 --> 2:26:01.960 If you want to support some of those people up 2:26:01.959 --> 2:26:04.760 in Canada, go to heroin Martin by a shoot dope 2:26:04.800 --> 2:26:09.600 fu the cops hoodie. Yeah, but say like safe safe 2:26:09.680 --> 2:26:13.800 drug injection and ingestion sites are have been have been 2:26:13.959 --> 2:26:17.680 very good at preventing deaths in Vancouver, BC. And there's 2:26:17.720 --> 2:26:19.520 just a good idea in general, and I will be 2:26:19.560 --> 2:26:22.160 excited at the prospect. They're an incredibly good idea. And 2:26:22.280 --> 2:26:25.160 they also if you're trying to again talk about this 2:26:25.280 --> 2:26:28.760 to conservatives in your life, they're cheaper than just letting 2:26:28.800 --> 2:26:31.760 people be addicted to drugs on the street because people 2:26:31.840 --> 2:26:35.280 don't steal stuff. Also, their heroin is free. Also, they 2:26:35.320 --> 2:26:37.840 won't have ridiculous medical bills. They get paid by the state, 2:26:38.280 --> 2:26:41.160 and they're more likely to seek treatment even if you 2:26:41.200 --> 2:26:44.520 don't mandate that, especially if you don't mandate that, because 2:26:44.600 --> 2:26:48.800 as a rule, people don't like having problematic addictions to drugs, 2:26:48.920 --> 2:26:52.600 and if they can deal with their immediate needs and 2:26:52.760 --> 2:26:55.440 also know that there's help available, they will often choose 2:26:55.520 --> 2:26:59.080 to get help. So and I think I have I 2:26:59.120 --> 2:27:02.760 have one more actual prediction is that a new Matrix 2:27:02.879 --> 2:27:05.400 video game what will be announced? And that is that 2:27:05.560 --> 2:27:08.000 is all of my predictions. Oh, we should probably talk 2:27:08.000 --> 2:27:10.760 about Matrix for briefly. That's what the people want. Garrison 2:27:10.959 --> 2:27:14.520 it and and for the record, this is going to 2:27:14.600 --> 2:27:17.640 be controversial because some people have no taste, but we 2:27:17.760 --> 2:27:21.920 both think it fucking ruled. It is possibly the best 2:27:22.000 --> 2:27:25.520 Matrix film. It was really fun. It's it's very good. 2:27:25.600 --> 2:27:27.520 If you think about it for any amount of time, 2:27:27.680 --> 2:27:31.560 it gets very good in the way it addresses um 2:27:32.120 --> 2:27:35.320 the system's power to incorporate Revolt as a part of 2:27:35.360 --> 2:27:39.760 the system, which was already teased inside me monti asthetic, Yeah, reloaded, 2:27:39.800 --> 2:27:42.480 but yeah, like the Matrix using the weapon that wants 2:27:42.520 --> 2:27:45.120 to find you against you, and the Matrix weaponizing all 2:27:45.160 --> 2:27:49.040 of your ideas against you, Um is very good. Um. 2:27:50.160 --> 2:27:51.880 I know Lana put a lot of thought into this, 2:27:52.120 --> 2:27:55.640 particularly around who she is, how she's developed, and how 2:27:55.800 --> 2:27:59.680 her work has been turned against her and what she believes. UM, 2:28:00.080 --> 2:28:02.600 both by like the people and also like corporately in 2:28:02.800 --> 2:28:06.400 terms of like achieving the correct amount of meta that 2:28:06.560 --> 2:28:10.640 it's not useless drivel while still actually being aware of 2:28:10.760 --> 2:28:13.440 what it is. Um. I think was done. Well. I 2:28:13.520 --> 2:28:16.320 know there's there's some people and like the postmodern thing, 2:28:16.400 --> 2:28:19.720 who think it don't, who think it doesn't go meta enough. 2:28:19.800 --> 2:28:22.320 And I think that's nonsense because if you go any 2:28:22.400 --> 2:28:25.080 if you if you point out that pointing out, that 2:28:25.240 --> 2:28:27.959 pointing out revolt against the system is part of the system, 2:28:28.240 --> 2:28:31.000 then you've lost everybody. Like no one cares because you 2:28:31.200 --> 2:28:34.320 can add on those layers endlessly and it's just dribble. Um. 2:28:34.400 --> 2:28:37.040 So I think they got the correct amount of meta. Well, 2:28:37.160 --> 2:28:39.440 then a band not not abandoned that idea but moving 2:28:39.480 --> 2:28:40.960 it on mean, like you know, you know, it's more 2:28:41.000 --> 2:28:44.120 important than being meta is making friends and finding human 2:28:44.200 --> 2:28:47.760 connections because going through the world like this isolated, like 2:28:47.840 --> 2:28:50.240 Thomas Anderson is when he's in the Matrix, as like 2:28:50.360 --> 2:28:52.400 as as games that are A big part of that 2:28:52.440 --> 2:28:54.959 problem is that he's very isolated, and the whole point 2:28:55.080 --> 2:28:57.879 is like, no, you need to find friends, find connections, 2:28:58.240 --> 2:29:01.920 get like like be have people around you to build 2:29:01.959 --> 2:29:05.280 a network of and they actually start like like loving 2:29:05.320 --> 2:29:08.520 other people is really one of the only ways out 2:29:08.560 --> 2:29:12.680 of this looping cycle and layering of Matrix is that 2:29:12.760 --> 2:29:16.879 we always live in um. It was. It's a wonderful film. 2:29:17.800 --> 2:29:19.520 I can talk about I could, I could talk about 2:29:19.520 --> 2:29:21.560 it for hours, but we could do a whole podcast 2:29:22.360 --> 2:29:25.880 about why we enjoyed Matrix four UM, but it's it's 2:29:26.040 --> 2:29:28.760 pretty fun and my only the only thing I'll add 2:29:28.800 --> 2:29:31.800 to that is a lot of people fools is what 2:29:31.959 --> 2:29:34.080 I call them, are angry at the fact that it 2:29:34.240 --> 2:29:38.880 ended with the Brass Against cover of It was so 2:29:39.080 --> 2:29:44.840 good it was, and it the cover of that song 2:29:45.080 --> 2:29:47.520 opens an exactly so that the singer, the lead singer 2:29:47.560 --> 2:29:51.920 of Brass Against, became briefly famous mid late last year 2:29:52.480 --> 2:29:56.160 UM when during while playing that exact song on stage 2:29:57.160 --> 2:30:01.680 into a fan's mouth and the song that the cover 2:30:01.840 --> 2:30:04.360 that ends the Matrix starts at exactly the moment where 2:30:04.400 --> 2:30:06.400 she pete in that guy's mouth during the live show, 2:30:06.720 --> 2:30:09.480 and I am certain that Lana Wachowski was planning to 2:30:09.600 --> 2:30:12.520 use the original Rage against the Machine version of that song, 2:30:13.160 --> 2:30:15.320 and then that news dropped and was like, well, let's 2:30:15.320 --> 2:30:17.880 get these brass against people I I want, I want 2:30:17.920 --> 2:30:23.800 the Piste song, the other thing I wanted. They is 2:30:24.879 --> 2:30:28.200 reflecting on the analyst as a character and how he 2:30:28.360 --> 2:30:32.600 relates to kind of the meat space argument and how 2:30:32.760 --> 2:30:36.280 digital systems and algorithms and social media operates. He if 2:30:36.320 --> 2:30:40.320 you listen to him talk um and within the whole context, 2:30:40.720 --> 2:30:43.800 within the whole context of the film, he um. They 2:30:43.879 --> 2:30:47.120 think there's actually some more insightful points than what you 2:30:47.240 --> 2:30:51.640 might originally suspect around like social media um and digital 2:30:52.080 --> 2:30:56.560 nous versus realness um just always you know, always a 2:30:56.720 --> 2:30:59.680 factor in in matrix films. But the way, the way 2:30:59.720 --> 2:31:01.000 they into it and this so much thing is a 2:31:01.040 --> 2:31:03.120 lot more mature than all the topics they handle in 2:31:03.160 --> 2:31:05.760 their previous films. And I mean there's just so many 2:31:05.840 --> 2:31:09.240 like really good like single lines that offer like really 2:31:09.360 --> 2:31:11.840 good like oh wow, like that's just like a very 2:31:11.920 --> 2:31:14.120 good point, and then they just move past them so 2:31:14.400 --> 2:31:17.480 like so effortlessly, like you could focus on any one 2:31:17.560 --> 2:31:20.080 of those really good lines, and they just offer up 2:31:20.160 --> 2:31:23.400 so many and at many points, and I like that 2:31:23.480 --> 2:31:26.480 they turned the Mayor of Engian into Ted Kaczynski. Um, 2:31:26.840 --> 2:31:28.920 it's just fun. Like at the end of the day, 2:31:29.600 --> 2:31:33.600 it's just actually really fun and it doesn't feel exactly 2:31:33.680 --> 2:31:35.800 like the other movies in the series, which is what 2:31:35.920 --> 2:31:37.959 I want. I don't like reboots. I wasn't a fan 2:31:38.000 --> 2:31:41.800 of the Star Wars reboot because it was like I've 2:31:41.800 --> 2:31:44.600 seen this again, Yeah, yeah, I I like I like 2:31:44.760 --> 2:31:46.840 that it. I like that a lot of the action 2:31:46.920 --> 2:31:48.560 in this movie, right up until kind of the end 2:31:48.640 --> 2:31:52.200 feels perfunctory and like I like like kind of saying 2:31:52.240 --> 2:31:54.520 like I don't care about this part anymore. Like I've 2:31:54.600 --> 2:31:59.200 done the guy's fighting agents and bullet time. Um that 2:31:59.360 --> 2:32:02.080 you know, at the end, there's some more some more 2:32:02.440 --> 2:32:05.520 loving action set pieces, but like from the beginning, it's 2:32:05.640 --> 2:32:08.640 very much it's much more like a really fun commentary 2:32:08.840 --> 2:32:12.200 on how Hollywood works and how the video game industry works. 2:32:12.520 --> 2:32:14.960 There's a fucking mass effect joke in there. There's a 2:32:15.040 --> 2:32:18.200 joke about like the nineteen nine or two thousand Matrix 2:32:18.320 --> 2:32:21.800 video game that happened before Garrison was born. It's so fun. 2:32:22.080 --> 2:32:24.199 It's it's just a lot of fun as a movie. 2:32:26.240 --> 2:32:31.520 It's frad m well um any any other final final 2:32:31.640 --> 2:32:37.000 predictions before we wrap up this, this extremely well thought 2:32:37.040 --> 2:32:39.760 through episode that we've poured our hearts and minds into. 2:32:39.920 --> 2:32:42.080 We really did. Dr oz is going to go down 2:32:42.160 --> 2:32:46.720 in flames. Oh I hope so, oh man. I really 2:32:46.760 --> 2:32:49.000 have no idea what to expect from I have no idea. 2:32:49.040 --> 2:32:51.440 I'm not making I'm not making any prediction on that 2:32:51.480 --> 2:32:55.120 because I too have no idea. The only thing that 2:32:55.160 --> 2:32:57.039 I'll say is that one way or the other, it's 2:32:57.040 --> 2:32:58.720 going to be a bell weather. If it like goes 2:32:58.800 --> 2:33:00.880 great for him and he wins easily, we're going to 2:33:01.000 --> 2:33:05.000 see a lot more like Dr phil is absolutely rolling 2:33:05.120 --> 2:33:09.720 into Congress. If that works for oz Um and other 2:33:09.920 --> 2:33:13.359 other people who are kind of occupy similar cultural spaces 2:33:13.440 --> 2:33:16.240 will do the same thing, and then we'll have congressional 2:33:16.360 --> 2:33:19.800 inquiries about whether or not this simple trick will burn 2:33:19.879 --> 2:33:25.800 belly fat. It's if it's like like, if that's what happens, 2:33:25.879 --> 2:33:27.240 Like the think the thing Trump is going to be 2:33:27.320 --> 2:33:30.440 remembered for like is being like, well, the thing the 2:33:30.480 --> 2:33:32.400 thing Reagan is going to be remembered for is being 2:33:32.520 --> 2:33:36.360 just like like fifty years ahead of his time. Before 2:33:36.480 --> 2:33:39.600 we're literally all entirely ruled by just reality TV stars. 2:33:40.360 --> 2:33:44.120 Mm hmm. Whose wives are great at giving a head? 2:33:48.040 --> 2:33:50.560 Should I? Did anyone? Did? Everyone already forget that Nancy 2:33:50.640 --> 2:33:59.920 Reagan throat goat discourse? Everyone was so exhausted. Yeah, if 2:34:00.040 --> 2:34:03.480 you didn't catch this, it's a very well known secret 2:34:03.520 --> 2:34:05.840 and has been for like fifty years. That back before 2:34:05.879 --> 2:34:08.640 they got married and probably after. Nancy was famous for 2:34:08.720 --> 2:34:13.400 giving the best blow jobs in Hollywood, as as as 2:34:13.480 --> 2:34:19.480 Garrison tosses the cat every single episode. So I disdained 2:34:19.560 --> 2:34:28.720 this discourse. Now, yeah, twy two, it's a year. We're 2:34:28.760 --> 2:34:31.200 in it. Okay. My last prediction is I actually do 2:34:31.360 --> 2:34:34.960 think this year is gonna suck slightly less. Did Now 2:34:35.720 --> 2:34:37.360 this is probably the big one. I'm gonna eat it on, 2:34:37.480 --> 2:34:41.240 but like, hopefully happen. Hopefully you're right about it. So 2:34:41.760 --> 2:34:45.040 I'm hoping. Um No, Yeah, I think that there's a 2:34:45.120 --> 2:34:48.800 decent chance that we're that it's better. Um, it's at 2:34:48.879 --> 2:34:51.400 least in some ways. The climate stuff, as it nearly 2:34:51.480 --> 2:34:54.440 always will for the foreseeable future, we'll keep getting worse. 2:34:54.560 --> 2:34:57.160 But yeah, I think there's actually a chance that COVID 2:34:57.200 --> 2:35:00.440 will get better, not because of any policy decision, because 2:35:01.200 --> 2:35:05.199 macron literally nine of human beings and in the world 2:35:05.280 --> 2:35:09.840 get it, and those that survive COVID stops passing on 2:35:09.920 --> 2:35:12.760 as much, which is kind of vaguely speaking what happened 2:35:12.800 --> 2:35:19.440 with you know, the influenza. I will be probably foolish 2:35:19.520 --> 2:35:22.600 in making one more prediction. That is, like around the fall, 2:35:23.080 --> 2:35:25.240 we will not see spikes as big as we saw 2:35:25.360 --> 2:35:28.720 this last year. Um. I I do think there will 2:35:28.720 --> 2:35:30.760 probably still be some, but I do think the numbers 2:35:30.800 --> 2:35:34.840 are going to be generally trending down. Um. Yeah, after 2:35:34.959 --> 2:35:37.040 O Macron hits its peak, just because how many people 2:35:37.040 --> 2:35:41.440 will get infected, how many antibodies plus vaccines will be circulating, um, 2:35:41.840 --> 2:35:44.520 and how many people have already been who don't take 2:35:44.520 --> 2:35:49.240 the vaccine have will already have like died off. It's 2:35:49.680 --> 2:35:51.520 I do not say that to be like flip into 2:35:51.640 --> 2:35:56.520 to be like, but it's like that. It's the world 2:35:56.600 --> 2:36:00.520 that we live in it um. But I do hope 2:36:00.600 --> 2:36:05.080 and I do hope and some slightly predict that we'll 2:36:05.120 --> 2:36:09.080 have less less spiking numbers around this next fall and 2:36:09.160 --> 2:36:11.480 winter as we did of this current you know falling 2:36:11.520 --> 2:36:15.200 winter season. I wouldn't mind ending on a note of 2:36:15.240 --> 2:36:18.440 appreciation for the fucking booster, because we got it. You 2:36:18.520 --> 2:36:20.480 and I both garrison, as did most of our friends, 2:36:20.600 --> 2:36:25.840 and had just a shipload of COVID flying around us everywhere. 2:36:25.920 --> 2:36:29.480 I love a lot of infections, and we were fine. Fine. 2:36:30.400 --> 2:36:34.240 I have one of my friends got COVID and her mom, 2:36:34.360 --> 2:36:36.760 who they lived in the same house did not has 2:36:36.840 --> 2:36:39.800 not gotten COVID because they're wearing masks and they got 2:36:39.840 --> 2:36:43.320 the booster. And for for all my friends that that 2:36:43.480 --> 2:36:48.680 did get COVID that had that were boosted, the vaccine 2:36:48.680 --> 2:36:52.039 didn't shop there. You're not in the hospital. You're double 2:36:52.120 --> 2:36:55.640 test positive on a rapid test and then test negative 2:36:55.680 --> 2:36:58.520 on a PCR, probably because by the time he got 2:36:58.560 --> 2:37:01.080 to the PCR like the next his viral load was 2:37:01.160 --> 2:37:05.360 just so fucking low. UM, get the third vacs the 2:37:05.440 --> 2:37:08.560 vaccine works. Who could have predicted? Who could have predicted? 2:37:09.680 --> 2:37:13.240 The things that are literally the entire basis of our 2:37:13.360 --> 2:37:16.760 modern concept of the value of human life continue to 2:37:16.800 --> 2:37:21.400 be very effective. All right? Well, that that does it 2:37:21.520 --> 2:37:27.680 for us, UM unplugged, Go spend time outside, touch grass, 2:37:28.800 --> 2:37:32.000 touch your mirror like trying to go through it because 2:37:32.280 --> 2:37:35.400 trying to go through what's real what's not see if 2:37:35.560 --> 2:37:40.160 see if Maybe you were the digital Messiah and you 2:37:40.240 --> 2:37:43.080 have been trapped in a simulation where you work at 2:37:43.080 --> 2:37:46.200 a food lion, um and and you can break free 2:37:46.240 --> 2:37:50.000 of it, um, but not fly anymore because now your 2:37:50.040 --> 2:37:52.960 girlfriends he does he does fly with Trinity at the end, 2:37:53.120 --> 2:37:57.000 he does fly with Trinity. Sure, just as we all 2:37:57.080 --> 2:38:00.720 can only fly with of our love well with Carrie 2:38:00.720 --> 2:38:05.120 Admosson's Yeah, specifically, who has gotten so much hotter as 2:38:05.160 --> 2:38:20.360 they've made all right, Well, that's that's where we are. Hey, everybody, 2:38:20.480 --> 2:38:23.080 welcome to it could happen here. I am Robert Evans, 2:38:23.160 --> 2:38:24.760 and this is the show where we talk about how 2:38:24.840 --> 2:38:26.880 everything is kind of falling apart and how we might 2:38:26.959 --> 2:38:29.640 put it back together again in a way that works 2:38:29.720 --> 2:38:33.000 better than it did before, um, or do something different 2:38:33.160 --> 2:38:36.760 that is even anyway, whatever, It's a show about the 2:38:36.840 --> 2:38:39.360 future and about the messed up present um And as 2:38:39.400 --> 2:38:40.800 a result of that, one of the things we talked 2:38:40.800 --> 2:38:43.440 about a lot is self sufficiency. We've had a number 2:38:43.440 --> 2:38:46.320 of episodes kind of covering the values of like replacing 2:38:46.360 --> 2:38:49.400 your lawn with food, guerilla gardening, that sort of stuff. 2:38:49.440 --> 2:38:51.840 And one of the critiques we get is people saying, well, 2:38:51.879 --> 2:38:54.160 you know, that's never gonna work on a large scale, 2:38:54.200 --> 2:38:57.440 it's never going to replace industrial agriculture or whatever. And 2:38:57.920 --> 2:39:01.320 that's perfectly true. But the point we're going for here, 2:39:01.360 --> 2:39:04.680 and why we encourage these kind of resilience building activities 2:39:04.800 --> 2:39:07.920 is because they do improve the ability of communities to 2:39:08.000 --> 2:39:11.359 resist when they need to resist, and also provide opportunities 2:39:11.680 --> 2:39:15.039 by which people can reimagine their relationship to, for example, 2:39:15.120 --> 2:39:17.840 the food supply chain, or reimagine the relationship to their 2:39:17.840 --> 2:39:20.480 community and the kind of things that communities provide for 2:39:20.600 --> 2:39:24.400 each other rather than having them shipped in by Amazon. Um. 2:39:24.720 --> 2:39:26.920 And when we start talking about that, and we start 2:39:26.959 --> 2:39:30.800 talking about improving community resiliency for things like, you know, 2:39:31.080 --> 2:39:35.240 a general strike or even potentially more radical stuff, one 2:39:35.360 --> 2:39:37.879 of the big issues that any community has to con 2:39:37.959 --> 2:39:40.840 front is not just food but medicine. I'm I do, 2:39:41.000 --> 2:39:42.720 and I'm sure a lot of other people have friends 2:39:42.879 --> 2:39:48.000 who cannot survive without medications that are very like reliant 2:39:48.160 --> 2:39:52.280 upon existing supply chains um, and to some extent, even 2:39:52.320 --> 2:39:55.600 the stability of the government, you know, um, getting your insulin, 2:39:55.760 --> 2:39:59.640 getting your medication for whatever, kind of disease you have 2:40:00.160 --> 2:40:02.520 that needs constant medication. There's a bunch of different reasons 2:40:02.800 --> 2:40:06.480 why people are reliant upon the medical um supply lines 2:40:06.560 --> 2:40:09.520 and upon the kind of pharmaceutical industry. And that's one 2:40:09.560 --> 2:40:12.440 of the big when we talk about building more resilient communities, 2:40:12.440 --> 2:40:14.880 one of the big hurdles to jump. Well. Today, my 2:40:15.040 --> 2:40:19.160 guest is someone who is working on bridging some of 2:40:19.200 --> 2:40:22.240 these problems. UM. His name is Michael Lawfer, and he 2:40:22.520 --> 2:40:25.240 is the founder of an organization called the Four Thieves 2:40:25.440 --> 2:40:29.640 Vinegar Collective. They are bio hackers, UM, and they are 2:40:29.760 --> 2:40:35.760 working on cracking certain pharmaceutical medications to allow individuals with 2:40:36.480 --> 2:40:40.080 resources that are generally available to people who are not 2:40:40.360 --> 2:40:45.880 rich or pharmaceutical companies UM, to produce life saving medications. UM. 2:40:46.360 --> 2:40:48.400 The number one thing you would have heard of from 2:40:48.480 --> 2:40:51.360 Four Thieves is the EPI pencil, which we'll talk about 2:40:51.400 --> 2:40:53.440 in a bit. But first, Michael, thank you for coming 2:40:53.480 --> 2:40:55.680 on the show. Thanks so much for having me. It's 2:40:55.760 --> 2:40:58.920 exciting to be able to shot and talk with you 2:40:59.080 --> 2:41:02.200 and all the people surrounding you who are trying to 2:41:03.440 --> 2:41:07.400 just unfunned things a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, and I 2:41:08.200 --> 2:41:10.480 most of the conversation I want to have today is 2:41:10.560 --> 2:41:13.879 on the unfucking of things variety. But I do think 2:41:13.920 --> 2:41:16.320 we should start with a little bit of technical talk first. 2:41:16.879 --> 2:41:19.720 Can you give people an idea of what kind of 2:41:19.800 --> 2:41:23.040 medications you and other people in the collective have figured 2:41:23.040 --> 2:41:26.920 out how to produce um and what kind of resources 2:41:26.959 --> 2:41:29.200 and individual needs to be able to do some of 2:41:29.280 --> 2:41:34.440 this stuff. Sure, so from a technical perspective, most of 2:41:34.520 --> 2:41:37.120 the things that we focus on are what's called small 2:41:37.160 --> 2:41:43.640 molecule chemistry, And to kind of describe that blanketly, if 2:41:43.720 --> 2:41:46.160 you can draw the molecule on a cocktail napkin, it 2:41:46.240 --> 2:41:49.160 probably qualifies as a small molecule if it's one of 2:41:49.240 --> 2:41:51.520 these things that like, you know, if you look at 2:41:51.560 --> 2:41:54.440 the diagram for the molecules approaching, it's got being ribbons 2:41:54.480 --> 2:41:57.440 that are colored and stuff that's a that's a biochem thing, 2:41:57.440 --> 2:42:01.080 and it's a whole different set of problems. Now, the 2:42:02.800 --> 2:42:11.959 mean focide that we've had have been surrounding access to abortion, 2:42:12.640 --> 2:42:19.440 access to HIV medications, access to hepatitis C medications, and 2:42:19.920 --> 2:42:23.680 access to reversal of drug overdose medications. So that's been 2:42:23.760 --> 2:42:25.920 sort of our main focus, but there's been a handful 2:42:25.959 --> 2:42:28.240 of others. The things that we tend to look for 2:42:28.560 --> 2:42:33.400 our where are there things that there's a great need 2:42:33.959 --> 2:42:37.280 and there's a huge barrier, And so you see those 2:42:37.760 --> 2:42:42.000 in those places a lot, because the three main barriers 2:42:42.080 --> 2:42:45.560 that tend to pop up between somebody and access to 2:42:45.560 --> 2:42:50.440 the medication they need are either price or legality, or 2:42:50.520 --> 2:42:56.320 lack of infrastructure. And typically the weirdness that comes up 2:42:57.760 --> 2:43:05.839 mostly surrounds price because of intellectual property laws and marginalization 2:43:06.240 --> 2:43:10.840 of people who suffer from particular ailments or seem to 2:43:10.920 --> 2:43:15.280 suffer predominantly from particular ailments. And so if you're if 2:43:15.320 --> 2:43:17.640 you're poor, and you're in a class of people that 2:43:18.560 --> 2:43:20.720 is seen as something not to be cared about because 2:43:20.800 --> 2:43:26.920 they're not a strong voter base, then the ability to 2:43:27.160 --> 2:43:31.640 move access away from those people and put in more 2:43:31.800 --> 2:43:39.160 barriers and raise prices becomes easier to defend um. So 2:43:40.200 --> 2:43:47.280 the first drug that we focused on was a an 2:43:47.480 --> 2:43:58.160 anti parasitic um. Toxoplasmosis is a parasite that's pretty innocuous 2:43:58.440 --> 2:44:01.560 for most people. Anbody when you get from cats, right 2:44:01.640 --> 2:44:03.920 or is this not Gandhi? It is? It is the 2:44:03.959 --> 2:44:05.840 one you get from cats, and it's a really fascinating 2:44:05.920 --> 2:44:08.720 parasite too, if if if you ever dig into the 2:44:09.000 --> 2:44:12.320 behavioral biology of it, it's really really fascinating parasite. Um, 2:44:12.440 --> 2:44:15.400 I probably have it. Yeah, I have three cats. I 2:44:15.520 --> 2:44:19.520 definitely have it, right, So and so it's not a 2:44:19.560 --> 2:44:21.920 big deal for those people. But if you have a 2:44:22.000 --> 2:44:25.240 massively compromised immune system, especially with people with HIV or 2:44:25.240 --> 2:44:28.040 advanced stages of cancer, and that's why it was labeled 2:44:28.080 --> 2:44:31.120 sort of you know, HIV drug, it's not it's a 2:44:31.200 --> 2:44:34.440 it's an anti parasitic, but it's used almost exclusively by 2:44:34.720 --> 2:44:39.680 people who are an advanced stages of cancer. Uh, people 2:44:39.720 --> 2:44:43.280 with fairly compromised immune systems from HIV or something else, 2:44:43.440 --> 2:44:46.879 and then pregnant women. Um. And it's not that big deal. 2:44:47.959 --> 2:44:52.199 If you have access to the medication, you can merely 2:44:52.240 --> 2:44:56.720 take it and eradicates from body. The difference was, is 2:44:56.800 --> 2:44:58.960 that something that was a short course of treatment. You 2:44:59.120 --> 2:45:05.360 take I think four um, yeah, four doses the first 2:45:05.400 --> 2:45:10.920 time around, and then one dose each day subsequently for 2:45:11.040 --> 2:45:13.600 something like ten days. Um And that's not a big 2:45:13.680 --> 2:45:15.960 deal when each dose, each pill was about thirteen and 2:45:15.959 --> 2:45:18.520 a half dollars. And then Martin cruently jacked up the 2:45:18.560 --> 2:45:23.600 price to seven fifty a pill, and so we're like, well, 2:45:23.640 --> 2:45:25.720 this is ridiculous. So that was the first one that 2:45:25.760 --> 2:45:29.800 we went after. Then of course access to abortion drugs, um, 2:45:30.000 --> 2:45:33.600 that's a big one. That's pretty topical. Lately we released 2:45:33.600 --> 2:45:36.160 a video I don't know, maybe three months ago on 2:45:36.240 --> 2:45:37.920 how you can make your own abortion pills without too 2:45:38.000 --> 2:45:42.600 much fuss. This would be Preston right, uh, Mytho, pristone 2:45:42.720 --> 2:45:46.400 and Mr Cristall. So you can do it with just 2:45:47.520 --> 2:45:50.960 Mr Purstall, or you can do it in combination, and 2:45:52.080 --> 2:45:55.959 when you do it with just the one with just Miso, 2:45:56.920 --> 2:45:59.640 you have about an eighty five percent chance of it 2:45:59.760 --> 2:46:02.920 wor king and if you have both the bumps it 2:46:03.000 --> 2:46:06.119 up to about and what is the like what when 2:46:06.160 --> 2:46:07.600 you're doing this? And we'll talk a little bit with 2:46:07.720 --> 2:46:10.000 the hardware, but like what is the re agent that 2:46:10.200 --> 2:46:12.000 you have for this? Because I know that's been a 2:46:12.040 --> 2:46:13.800 big part of some of the discussions is like how 2:46:13.840 --> 2:46:16.240 do you get the things you make the medicines from? 2:46:16.280 --> 2:46:19.400 Which is easier for some than it is for others. Sure, 2:46:19.600 --> 2:46:22.080 there are a couple different ways that you google about that. 2:46:22.840 --> 2:46:26.560 The the interesting but more difficult way, of course, is 2:46:26.600 --> 2:46:30.080 to do the chemistry from scratch, where like you say, 2:46:30.160 --> 2:46:33.480 you get access to the agents, you do some chemistry, 2:46:33.520 --> 2:46:38.240 and you end up with the active pharmaceutical ingredient, which 2:46:38.320 --> 2:46:40.320 we lovingly referred to as the A p I, and 2:46:40.400 --> 2:46:43.240 then you package it somehow into a tablet or a 2:46:43.320 --> 2:46:52.960 pill or or some other means of ingress into the body. Um. 2:46:53.520 --> 2:47:00.600 The instructions that we distributed skip the difficult part because 2:47:02.040 --> 2:47:09.960 mr Pristal is an ulcer medication, and so, for instance, 2:47:10.000 --> 2:47:14.080 if you have access to Mexico or are in Mexico, 2:47:14.280 --> 2:47:16.560 it's kind of not a big deal because as an 2:47:16.640 --> 2:47:19.360 ulcer medication, it's over the counter and you can just 2:47:19.480 --> 2:47:23.640 go in and say, oh, you know, my grandmother can't 2:47:23.640 --> 2:47:26.080 get out of bed, she needs this ulcer medication. I 2:47:26.160 --> 2:47:27.920 need just a little bit of it to get her 2:47:27.959 --> 2:47:32.360 through the weekend. Um, and then no problem. Uh. Not 2:47:32.560 --> 2:47:35.760 so easy in places where it's a little more controlled 2:47:35.800 --> 2:47:42.200 like the US. However, one amazing trick when looking for 2:47:44.560 --> 2:47:51.400 medicines access to medicines that are generally blocked from people 2:47:51.560 --> 2:47:58.480 that the existing power structure tries to disenfranchise from access 2:47:58.959 --> 2:48:02.440 is you look and see if it's similarly used for 2:48:02.840 --> 2:48:07.880 other classes of person or being that the infrastructure does 2:48:07.959 --> 2:48:13.240 care about. So interestingly, you look for ulcer medications, you say, well, like, well, 2:48:13.280 --> 2:48:16.520 who else has ulcers that you know, people might think 2:48:16.640 --> 2:48:19.640 are important people. That doesn't really come up, And there 2:48:19.680 --> 2:48:22.400 are other ulcer medications are a little bit better. However, 2:48:23.440 --> 2:48:24.920 there are a lot of really wealthy people in the 2:48:25.000 --> 2:48:28.320 United States, and really wealthy people tend to keep horses, 2:48:29.959 --> 2:48:37.480 and horses interestingly um nine or something or maybe more, 2:48:38.520 --> 2:48:45.720 some ungodly percentage of domesticated horses have ulcers. Um. Now 2:48:46.000 --> 2:48:50.400 why that is, I'm not entirely clear about. But my 2:48:50.560 --> 2:48:52.640 own theory is that it has something to do with 2:48:52.800 --> 2:48:55.600 taking a gigantic wild animal and putting it into a 2:48:55.720 --> 2:48:58.280 very small box for most of its life. Yeah, it 2:48:58.360 --> 2:49:02.720 doesn't seem like the thing that horses evolved to do. Yeah. So, 2:49:03.879 --> 2:49:08.120 so that said, people who are horse owners typically have 2:49:08.280 --> 2:49:11.480 to treat them constantly for ulcers. And the best thing 2:49:11.720 --> 2:49:15.200 for that is Mr Cristall And so you can get 2:49:16.560 --> 2:49:22.000 Mr Crystal powder in a tub from places that, yeah, 2:49:22.120 --> 2:49:24.360 feedstore or something. Yeah, I go to a feed store 2:49:24.400 --> 2:49:26.480 every week. I'm sure I could buy a bucket of 2:49:26.560 --> 2:49:29.880 this ship probably, so it comes in tubs and the 2:49:29.959 --> 2:49:31.800 other thing that's great about it coming in a tub 2:49:32.000 --> 2:49:35.720 is that it's already in with a buffer. Part of 2:49:35.760 --> 2:49:40.119 the thing about Mr. Crystall is that the dosages in micrograms, 2:49:40.160 --> 2:49:42.000 and that's very hard to weigh unless you have a 2:49:42.080 --> 2:49:46.160 really high precision scale. Even your good drug dealers generally 2:49:46.200 --> 2:49:49.800 don't have a scale that can do that. Right. So, 2:49:50.400 --> 2:49:52.440 but the magic is this isn't a tub with a 2:49:52.600 --> 2:49:56.840 bunch of inert powder, and it's it's already mixed up 2:49:56.959 --> 2:49:59.480 to be homogeneous. And so what you can do is 2:49:59.520 --> 2:50:01.280 you can do a bit of back of the envelope 2:50:02.040 --> 2:50:06.360 arithmetic and you can measure out much larger quantities and 2:50:06.520 --> 2:50:09.960 know how much active ingredients you have and then pack 2:50:10.080 --> 2:50:16.560 that into a tablet. Now yeah, um, I mean that 2:50:16.680 --> 2:50:20.000 makes so much sense. And it's also like like the 2:50:21.600 --> 2:50:23.800 you have kind of the dark side and light side version. 2:50:23.840 --> 2:50:25.520 It's kind of the light side version of all of 2:50:25.600 --> 2:50:29.440 those people buying up ivermectin for for nonsense. It's like, well, no, 2:50:29.760 --> 2:50:36.080 there's reasons to buy you know, like uh, livestock medication especially. Um. 2:50:36.640 --> 2:50:38.560 I mean, I have a lot of friends who took 2:50:38.560 --> 2:50:40.720 fishing antibiotics back in the day, and this is kind 2:50:40.720 --> 2:50:43.879 of a much more um using it in a much 2:50:43.920 --> 2:50:48.119 more rigorous way to provide people with something that can 2:50:48.520 --> 2:50:51.480 is getting it will be getting increasingly difficult to access 2:50:51.600 --> 2:50:54.039 in a lot of parts of the country. Yeah, it's 2:50:54.080 --> 2:50:56.960 just such a smart way of approaching it, I think. Yeah. 2:50:56.959 --> 2:51:00.600 And one of the things that becomes philosophic quickly a 2:51:00.720 --> 2:51:07.400 bit sticky is when you end up talking about the 2:51:07.520 --> 2:51:14.600 importance of independent management of one's own health and decision 2:51:14.680 --> 2:51:18.880 making not coming from above. There's this difficult moment that 2:51:19.080 --> 2:51:23.040 I've had kind of having to cop to the reality 2:51:23.480 --> 2:51:28.280 that if you're building mechanisms to empower people to have 2:51:28.760 --> 2:51:33.240 access to make decisions about managing their own health. H 2:51:34.040 --> 2:51:41.040 part of that entails realizing that that will also lead 2:51:41.080 --> 2:51:45.600 to a lot of people making what I might think 2:51:45.640 --> 2:51:49.920 are bad decisions, but that the important thing is that 2:51:50.040 --> 2:51:53.280 it doesn't matter what I think. That people should not 2:51:53.520 --> 2:51:56.400 be controlled by other people, and if they make bad decisions, 2:51:56.520 --> 2:51:59.800 that sucks, and hopefully we can help that. But not 2:52:00.840 --> 2:52:09.800 not lamenting the importance of or not not backtracking, not 2:52:10.000 --> 2:52:16.400 having some sort of retrograde Yeah, about offering more access 2:52:16.520 --> 2:52:22.600 even if people misuse that access to the miss manage 2:52:22.680 --> 2:52:27.360 their own health. Mismanagement of health happens no matter what right. 2:52:27.520 --> 2:52:31.280 It happens constantly, and people will ignore things that seem 2:52:31.360 --> 2:52:34.280 like they're bigger problems and don't get them addressed. And 2:52:34.400 --> 2:52:37.279 so I have to sort of retreat into this idea 2:52:37.360 --> 2:52:41.520 that more access to more tools is better and that's 2:52:41.560 --> 2:52:44.440 just the way of it. And yeah, the problem, yeah, 2:52:45.000 --> 2:52:47.160 I mean, the problem with ivermectin isn't the problem. The 2:52:47.200 --> 2:52:49.640 problem is that that people have access to ivermectin and 2:52:49.760 --> 2:52:51.600 so they're taking it in a way that is harmful 2:52:51.680 --> 2:52:53.800 to them. The problem is that people have been have 2:52:54.520 --> 2:52:58.080 have been blinded by disinformation and so are making a 2:52:58.120 --> 2:53:01.040 horrible health care decision. And the fact that they have 2:53:01.240 --> 2:53:05.400 it's possessed to veterinary medication is fine, right, exactly. And 2:53:05.600 --> 2:53:07.680 and it's and it's interesting that you say that because 2:53:07.879 --> 2:53:10.240 I have a friend of Doctors Without Borders and they 2:53:10.280 --> 2:53:14.959 are starting a couple of pretty strong programs to try 2:53:15.000 --> 2:53:22.600 and combat misinformation because just from a metric standpoint, they 2:53:22.800 --> 2:53:25.160 look for sort of like what's killing the greatest number 2:53:25.200 --> 2:53:27.680 of people at the greatest rate in the worst way, 2:53:28.400 --> 2:53:30.600 and currently the thing that's killing the most people in 2:53:30.720 --> 2:53:33.199 the worst way at the greatest rate is a misinformation 2:53:34.840 --> 2:53:38.760 and so yeah, that's that's really the great danger. And 2:53:39.560 --> 2:53:42.160 one of the things I found really interesting about kind 2:53:42.160 --> 2:53:44.120 of what you all have been doing because obviously the 2:53:44.200 --> 2:53:46.560 question of how to fight the misinformation in the medical 2:53:46.600 --> 2:53:50.080 sphere is a much larger conversation without simple answers. When 2:53:50.160 --> 2:53:52.640 it comes to a question like, oh, hey, this pharmaceutical 2:53:52.720 --> 2:53:55.800 company jacked up the price by what set for this 2:53:55.920 --> 2:53:58.640 necessary medication for people a lot of people who have 2:53:58.840 --> 2:54:02.720 HIV um. What are we The solution to that is simple, 2:54:02.760 --> 2:54:04.199 you find a way for them to get it without 2:54:04.240 --> 2:54:08.279 paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars per dose um. The question. 2:54:08.800 --> 2:54:11.360 Some of the work you all have done is with 2:54:11.560 --> 2:54:16.160 very uh mass needed products like the methopristone, like the 2:54:16.200 --> 2:54:19.200 epipencil um, where there's large numbers of people who need it. 2:54:19.240 --> 2:54:20.440 But a lot of what I think, one of the 2:54:20.440 --> 2:54:22.160 things I think is really cool is y'all are also 2:54:22.240 --> 2:54:26.400 working on hacking medications that are very niche like, very 2:54:26.480 --> 2:54:29.760 very few people have this particular disease, and so the 2:54:29.879 --> 2:54:34.480 medication is costs as much as the fully loaded Toyota tacoma, 2:54:34.640 --> 2:54:37.480 you know, in order to sometimes far worse than that. 2:54:37.879 --> 2:54:41.320 Because of this Orphan Drug Act that got past in 2:54:41.360 --> 2:54:45.520 the US and equivalence that exists in other places. You 2:54:45.680 --> 2:54:51.120 have all of these allowances that are granted to people 2:54:51.320 --> 2:54:56.640 who invent I put in air quotes because really they 2:54:56.760 --> 2:55:02.400 just purchase the rights to it. Uh, these these orphan 2:55:02.520 --> 2:55:09.200 drugs where when you talk about controls, it's kind of 2:55:09.879 --> 2:55:16.199 the most tragic incidents of that entirely because what's happening 2:55:16.280 --> 2:55:18.520 is you've got somebody who has a very rare disease, 2:55:19.280 --> 2:55:24.199 and in many cases you have something that's the difference 2:55:24.240 --> 2:55:28.320 between somebody who just cannot function and they're dealing with 2:55:28.440 --> 2:55:31.960 their life kind of moment to moment. They're they're mostly 2:55:32.080 --> 2:55:37.359 cared for, and if they have access to a particular medication, 2:55:37.440 --> 2:55:40.320 then they can go through life in a fairly normal 2:55:40.480 --> 2:55:43.080 sort of way where they don't need to be an 2:55:43.120 --> 2:55:46.880 assisted living, where they can do sort of basic things 2:55:46.959 --> 2:55:52.920 for themselves, and that that seems so much more predatory. 2:55:53.920 --> 2:55:55.840 I mean, it's important, of course, you know, to look 2:55:55.879 --> 2:55:58.680 at things with that macro lens as well and say 2:55:58.720 --> 2:56:00.400 what can what can do a lot good for a 2:56:00.480 --> 2:56:04.800 lot of people, But then the sort of micro ethical 2:56:04.959 --> 2:56:07.640 lens needs to come out from time to time and say, 2:56:07.720 --> 2:56:10.920 all right, well, here's something that only affects a few 2:56:11.000 --> 2:56:14.920 hundred thousand people across the world. But these are people 2:56:14.959 --> 2:56:19.520 who could just go through life normally if only they 2:56:19.600 --> 2:56:23.280 had access to a little bit of medicine. And the 2:56:23.360 --> 2:56:28.000 only reason they don't is because of misplaced average or 2:56:28.959 --> 2:56:33.760 all averice is misplaced because yeah, and you're you're you're 2:56:33.800 --> 2:56:38.080 providing individuals or a way for people to help individuals 2:56:38.160 --> 2:56:40.840 who have this problem and who can't couldn't possibly afford 2:56:40.879 --> 2:56:42.520 this because they don't have health care or something a 2:56:42.560 --> 2:56:47.440 way to deal with these illnesses. Um and often times, 2:56:47.600 --> 2:56:52.160 like even even people who are ensured get the medication 2:56:52.200 --> 2:56:55.279 that they need or don't get an affordable rate because 2:56:56.080 --> 2:56:59.680 it's not seen as critical. It's like, oh, well there's 2:56:59.720 --> 2:57:02.120 a there's a solution that's not as good, but it's 2:57:02.200 --> 2:57:04.200 much less expensive. So that's the only thing we're going 2:57:04.240 --> 2:57:07.560 to cover. And so yeah, and you're saying, well, it 2:57:07.600 --> 2:57:10.760 should be your decision whether or not this is something 2:57:10.840 --> 2:57:13.640 you want to treat this way, and we're this is 2:57:13.680 --> 2:57:17.160 a way if you you know, have access, this is 2:57:17.200 --> 2:57:19.240 a way for you to kind of as you've been saying, 2:57:19.280 --> 2:57:23.280 like take your health care and your ability to get 2:57:23.360 --> 2:57:26.160 medication into your own hands and produce the things that 2:57:26.280 --> 2:57:29.880 you need without needing to beg an insurance company or 2:57:30.280 --> 2:57:34.200 go fund me eight dollars or whatever. Yeah. Those go 2:57:34.360 --> 2:57:37.440 fund me break my heart so much. Yeah. It's especially 2:57:37.480 --> 2:57:40.000 when people say, oh, look, how great somebody got the 2:57:40.040 --> 2:57:43.200 money that they needed, and I say, look, I am 2:57:43.280 --> 2:57:49.160 happy that people get healthcare, but this should be entirely unnecessary, 2:57:49.640 --> 2:57:52.840 and the fact that this comes up is criminal. Yeah 2:57:52.959 --> 2:57:55.520 we can. We can as a species produce this ship 2:57:55.760 --> 2:57:59.280 for less than the cost of like a lamp, you know, 2:57:59.640 --> 2:58:03.680 Like why why don't why isn't this available? Um now? 2:58:03.920 --> 2:58:06.400 I And that's what I think is kind of so 2:58:06.520 --> 2:58:11.280 powerful about what y'all are doing, And is that so 2:58:11.680 --> 2:58:13.480 so often we kind of get stuck in this like 2:58:13.680 --> 2:58:16.000 the horror of how bad health care is, of how 2:58:16.040 --> 2:58:18.680 fund up the pharmaceutical industry is, and then we get 2:58:18.720 --> 2:58:20.720 our relief from that in these stories of people like 2:58:20.800 --> 2:58:24.040 crowdfunding so they can get their medication. And what you're 2:58:24.040 --> 2:58:27.120 saying is, well, what's actually much more inspiring than that 2:58:27.400 --> 2:58:31.039 is people just making finding ways to make what they need. Um. Again, 2:58:31.200 --> 2:58:33.600 kind of the most popular popular is the wrong word. 2:58:33.879 --> 2:58:36.200 The most press y'all have received, I think is for 2:58:36.280 --> 2:58:39.880 the epipencil, which is an EpiPen is a device that 2:58:40.080 --> 2:58:42.400 you take that is used when people are going into 2:58:42.440 --> 2:58:44.920 anaphylactic shock, which is when they have an allergic reaction 2:58:45.000 --> 2:58:48.520 that will kill them if untreated. Generally, UM and it 2:58:48.800 --> 2:58:52.840 you injected into your muscles or generally, like an EpiPen 2:58:52.959 --> 2:58:54.960 does the injecting, you just kind of put it in place. 2:58:55.760 --> 2:58:58.320 Um and it. It is a life saving medication when 2:58:58.360 --> 2:59:01.040 people need it. It's the true between that and death. 2:59:01.240 --> 2:59:03.640 UM and they are very expensive. There is a company 2:59:04.040 --> 2:59:06.760 that owns the patent because of how the EpiPen actually 2:59:06.840 --> 2:59:10.200 does the injecting. The actual medicine is very cheap and 2:59:10.360 --> 2:59:13.199 very easy to make, but it's unbelievably expensive, and people 2:59:13.240 --> 2:59:16.000 die as a result of lack lack of access. UM 2:59:16.720 --> 2:59:19.480 and you've provided a way using both kinds of this 2:59:19.560 --> 2:59:22.560 thing called a bio lab that people You've developed plans 2:59:22.640 --> 2:59:24.640 that people can build it for themselves in order to 2:59:25.200 --> 2:59:27.200 make this and also using a three D printer, you 2:59:27.240 --> 2:59:30.960 can make UM an epipencil, which is a little less 2:59:31.240 --> 2:59:33.320 kind of a more analog version. I think I guess 2:59:33.360 --> 2:59:36.760 you'd say, uh, no, it's it's it's equivalent. It's equivalent. 2:59:36.800 --> 2:59:38.959 It works the same way. The things that are different 2:59:39.040 --> 2:59:43.800 about it that are critical. The first one that you mentioned, 2:59:43.840 --> 2:59:45.960 of course, is that you can you can build it 2:59:46.120 --> 2:59:50.920 for all over thirty dollars US, and you can reload 2:59:51.000 --> 2:59:55.600 it for about three dollars, unlike the EpiPen, which is 2:59:56.720 --> 3:00:02.000 I think it's about fifty dollars for yeah. Um, and 3:00:02.200 --> 3:00:05.560 that might be for a pair, but even so. Um. 3:00:06.920 --> 3:00:13.840 But the other two critical differences are that EpiPens are 3:00:13.920 --> 3:00:20.880 single use, so you can't test whether it's faulty or 3:00:20.959 --> 3:00:26.040 not until you use it. Yeah. And there have been 3:00:26.040 --> 3:00:28.360 a lot of failures. In fact, there was a big 3:00:28.520 --> 3:00:32.080 EpiPen recall a bunch of years ago, and there were 3:00:32.160 --> 3:00:36.480 just these tragic, tragic stories. Some guy had to watch 3:00:36.640 --> 3:00:41.000 his little kid die. He had had a pair of EpiPens. 3:00:41.040 --> 3:00:44.320 The kid went into shock, he used it, the thing failed, 3:00:44.520 --> 3:00:46.440 he brought the other one. The other one failed, and 3:00:46.520 --> 3:00:48.760 they're in the air and you can't land in fifteen 3:00:48.760 --> 3:00:51.200 minutes and the little kid died, which just and I'm 3:00:51.240 --> 3:00:53.280 sure there are dozens of dozens of stories like that 3:00:53.400 --> 3:00:54.840 that just happens to be one of the ones I know. 3:00:55.600 --> 3:00:59.320 So one of the things that's great about the epipencils 3:00:59.400 --> 3:01:01.959 because you're putting it together yourself and it only takes 3:01:02.360 --> 3:01:05.800 four parts, you can test it. You can make sure 3:01:05.920 --> 3:01:08.320 that it works as many times as you need to. 3:01:08.440 --> 3:01:10.640 You can dry run it with saline and just double 3:01:10.760 --> 3:01:14.600 check that it does what it's supposed to. Um. And 3:01:14.760 --> 3:01:21.920 so it's safer. So the fact that it's you can 3:01:22.000 --> 3:01:25.480 control yourself, you can reload it, and you can test it. 3:01:25.800 --> 3:01:31.760 All these things fix a lot of these immediate problems 3:01:32.560 --> 3:01:35.280 that come with and it still has the benefit that 3:01:35.360 --> 3:01:39.040 everybody wants from the EpiPen which is that it doesn't 3:01:39.200 --> 3:01:46.840 require um, you know, measurement or like knowing how deep 3:01:46.959 --> 3:01:49.680 to press the needle before you depress the plunger. All 3:01:49.720 --> 3:01:53.119 of that happens automatically, and it happens very quickly. UM. 3:01:53.520 --> 3:01:55.000 And Yeah, we as you say, we've got a lot 3:01:55.040 --> 3:01:59.280 of press for that because essentially a good timing. We've 3:01:59.320 --> 3:02:02.680 released the same time that Heather Brush was lying to 3:02:02.760 --> 3:02:06.320 Congress about why they hit raised the price on the 3:02:06.400 --> 3:02:11.000 epi pens and then so it was in the public eye. Yeah, 3:02:11.320 --> 3:02:15.400 and and that's that's a huge one, being able to 3:02:15.440 --> 3:02:18.039 produce that because that is I mean, there's a tremendous 3:02:18.120 --> 3:02:22.560 number of people who rely on uh EpiPens um and 3:02:22.879 --> 3:02:28.080 and I think the potential of that project is staggering. 3:02:28.280 --> 3:02:30.560 UM And there's some there's some you know, when we 3:02:30.640 --> 3:02:32.720 talk about kind of the different people who are who 3:02:32.760 --> 3:02:34.800 are working on similar problems to you, there's also a 3:02:34.879 --> 3:02:38.199 group of people who are working on UM cracking insulin, 3:02:38.280 --> 3:02:40.880 being able to produce insulin um. And Yeah, the open 3:02:40.959 --> 3:02:44.840 Insulin project is an amazing group of people, incredibly important. 3:02:45.560 --> 3:02:51.040 They're yeah, they're working on mm hmm, probably the largest 3:02:51.160 --> 3:02:54.440 scale public health crisis. I mean in terms of queries 3:02:54.520 --> 3:02:57.440 that we get, I think we get people asking about 3:02:57.480 --> 3:03:00.480 insulin more than anything else. And I always say, oh, yeah, 3:03:01.440 --> 3:03:04.000 they're very, very bright people already working on this. Go 3:03:04.160 --> 3:03:07.400 talk to the opening so um and and they're just amazing. 3:03:08.400 --> 3:03:10.000 I I want to move on because I want to 3:03:10.160 --> 3:03:13.960 talk about kind of the more um philosophical dimensions of 3:03:14.040 --> 3:03:16.039 some of this. But before we get into that, i'd 3:03:16.080 --> 3:03:18.560 like to so, like, you know, one of the things 3:03:18.600 --> 3:03:20.440 you and I've been talking about a little bit behind 3:03:20.480 --> 3:03:23.640 the scenes is I am not a technically savvy person, 3:03:23.720 --> 3:03:25.920 but I'm I want to try and I'd like to 3:03:26.320 --> 3:03:28.720 be able to like produce an epipensil. I want to 3:03:28.800 --> 3:03:31.720 like understand this it kind of and and potentially be 3:03:31.760 --> 3:03:35.560 able to contribute UM in a more direct sense, in 3:03:35.640 --> 3:03:39.080 part because I'm curious, like how how doable actually is this? 3:03:39.320 --> 3:03:41.720 For I consider myself a pretty normal person when it 3:03:41.800 --> 3:03:44.840 comes to like technical understanding, right, Like, I'm reasonably handy, 3:03:45.240 --> 3:03:47.840 but I'm not. I'm not a chemist, I'm not a 3:03:48.040 --> 3:03:50.480 I'm not a I haven't really I have no I 3:03:50.520 --> 3:03:53.600 have no prior experience three D printing or anything like that. 3:03:54.280 --> 3:03:58.080 What is what is required in terms of financial investment 3:03:58.160 --> 3:04:00.320 and what is kind of your general estimate in terms 3:04:00.360 --> 3:04:03.680 of time to get up to you know, a kind 3:04:03.720 --> 3:04:07.600 of the level where you can start learning how to 3:04:07.640 --> 3:04:10.960 do some of this stuff. I think the barrier to 3:04:11.120 --> 3:04:14.680 entry is pretty low, depending on how you want to start. 3:04:16.480 --> 3:04:19.800 As I said, there are different avenues to doing it. 3:04:20.520 --> 3:04:23.040 You can, of course, one of the one of the 3:04:23.160 --> 3:04:26.160 greatest hacks. If if anybody listening this doesn't pick up 3:04:26.160 --> 3:04:29.240 anything else, here's the best hack. In terms of getting 3:04:29.280 --> 3:04:32.800 access to medication. You have a medication, you don't have 3:04:32.959 --> 3:04:36.440 access to for whatever reason. Assuming it comes in a 3:04:36.560 --> 3:04:40.840 capsule form, you can nearly go to a chemical supplier, 3:04:41.360 --> 3:04:45.640 purchase the active pharmaceutical ingredient, wait out, put it into 3:04:45.680 --> 3:04:48.960 a capsule, and you've made your medication. That's a very 3:04:49.040 --> 3:04:52.000 simple thing, you know. That takes nothing more than being 3:04:52.040 --> 3:04:54.080 able to read a scale and scooping powder into a 3:04:54.120 --> 3:04:59.160 little you know, capsules. The next step up, there are 3:05:00.360 --> 3:05:01.880 things that you can do. They are a little more involved. 3:05:01.920 --> 3:05:03.680 If you want to build an epy pencil, again, this 3:05:03.879 --> 3:05:07.600 is three or four parts, depending on how you count. 3:05:08.000 --> 3:05:12.720 You take the needle from one syringe needle set on, 3:05:12.920 --> 3:05:15.160 you put it onto a different syringe needle set, and 3:05:15.200 --> 3:05:18.480 then you put it into this auto injector this design 3:05:18.560 --> 3:05:22.560 for needle phobic diabetics. You load it with the up 3:05:22.600 --> 3:05:27.720 and ring and you close it up and you're done. Then, 3:05:28.280 --> 3:05:30.760 if you want to step into this a little bit further, 3:05:31.040 --> 3:05:34.680 if something is so barriered for whatever reason that you 3:05:34.800 --> 3:05:39.520 can't get the actual ingredient, then you might start messing 3:05:39.560 --> 3:05:42.920 around with our micro lab. The micro lab, I would 3:05:42.959 --> 3:05:46.280 say probably takes around a hundred dollars US to build 3:05:47.280 --> 3:05:52.800 um it, but it's not super technical Our latest version 3:05:52.879 --> 3:05:56.840 doesn't require any soldering. Everything snaps together, which is really nice. 3:05:57.400 --> 3:06:00.440 You can plug everything in. All the ours are just 3:06:00.520 --> 3:06:05.080 screw terminals, which is really convenient. UM. And it takes 3:06:05.240 --> 3:06:09.760 some time and you do have to load some code, 3:06:11.040 --> 3:06:15.240 but we're looking to release a a new set of 3:06:15.360 --> 3:06:20.080 documentation in the summer that will be very very stripped 3:06:20.160 --> 3:06:23.160 down of here's your bill of materials. You can order 3:06:23.200 --> 3:06:26.880 all of this stuff. Here's how you can put the 3:06:27.000 --> 3:06:29.960 disk image onto the SD card that you put in, 3:06:30.560 --> 3:06:32.800 and you should start it and it will wake up 3:06:32.879 --> 3:06:39.640 and work independently. UM. We had a video of our 3:06:39.760 --> 3:06:45.320 head hardware guy actually building the micro lab from just 3:06:45.560 --> 3:06:47.960 parts that we're sitting on lay out on a table, 3:06:48.480 --> 3:06:50.320 and I think all told it took him about forty 3:06:50.400 --> 3:06:54.560 five minutes. Will be a little bit longer, but again, 3:06:54.680 --> 3:06:58.080 like granted, this guy's a hardware specialist and he you know, 3:06:58.600 --> 3:07:02.160 designed it, so for somebody who's not done before, it 3:07:02.280 --> 3:07:06.720 might take an afternoon, but it's not. It's not prohibitively 3:07:06.879 --> 3:07:09.720 long or involved project that you know, would take you 3:07:09.840 --> 3:07:17.080 weeks to put together, or any specialized understanding of you know, 3:07:17.720 --> 3:07:22.360 biomedical engineering or anything like that. Now, Um, I kind 3:07:22.400 --> 3:07:23.680 of want to move at this point because I think 3:07:23.680 --> 3:07:26.720 that gives people an idea of what's actually necessary and 3:07:26.760 --> 3:07:29.200 they can go to y'all's website or look up you 3:07:29.280 --> 3:07:31.920 have plans on a ge hub if they want to 3:07:32.000 --> 3:07:35.040 kind of look at what's what's involved and it's um. 3:07:35.280 --> 3:07:37.160 Some of it seems a little daunting to me, Like 3:07:37.280 --> 3:07:39.400 look looking at the construction of the bio lab, but 3:07:39.480 --> 3:07:41.680 I'm that that's going to be a project that I'll 3:07:41.720 --> 3:07:43.600 be engaging in over the next couple of weeks, so 3:07:43.640 --> 3:07:46.840 we'll keep people updated on how I do there. UM. 3:07:47.080 --> 3:07:50.000 I want to move on to talk Michael about what 3:07:50.280 --> 3:07:53.880 you see as kind of the I don't know, the 3:07:55.560 --> 3:07:59.600 the the potential from kind of a revolutionary perspective, from 3:07:59.640 --> 3:08:04.039 a perspe active of actually building dual power of this project. 3:08:04.120 --> 3:08:06.240 And obviously you are and I think what would would 3:08:06.280 --> 3:08:08.720 be called the early stages of this idea of kind 3:08:08.760 --> 3:08:15.480 of democratizing and decentralizing the production of life saving medications. Um. 3:08:15.840 --> 3:08:17.560 Although I guess you could argue in some ways it's 3:08:17.600 --> 3:08:20.240 kind of a return to more traditional attitudes about health 3:08:20.280 --> 3:08:23.440 care in a lot of ways. Yeah, there's a cyclic 3:08:23.560 --> 3:08:27.720 nature there and in the sort of zend mind, beginner's mind. 3:08:27.800 --> 3:08:30.960 We'd like to think that the revolution is always in 3:08:31.040 --> 3:08:35.800 its beginning stages, right. UM. That to say, over the 3:08:35.920 --> 3:08:41.480 past decade, roughly looking at trying to find ways to 3:08:42.840 --> 3:08:49.760 give people more independent access that doesn't require infrastructure, to 3:08:49.920 --> 3:08:59.800 medicines and medical technologies. The the hope really is to 3:09:00.520 --> 3:09:06.080 create a certain amount of cultural shift. I remember at 3:09:06.120 --> 3:09:10.720 one point a friend of mine, who as a business 3:09:10.760 --> 3:09:14.119 school graduate, asked me a very sort of like business 3:09:14.160 --> 3:09:18.720 school type question where he said, how would you measure 3:09:18.800 --> 3:09:23.960 success of your project? UM? And I said, well, we 3:09:24.120 --> 3:09:27.080 cease to exist as an organization, and he kind of 3:09:27.160 --> 3:09:30.360 had this moment of like, what do you mean. We 3:09:30.440 --> 3:09:34.360 shouldn't be pushing this right, The ideas that eventually the 3:09:34.600 --> 3:09:40.440 concept of managing your own health is sufficiently normalized that 3:09:40.720 --> 3:09:44.640 it's not something that has to be explained between people. 3:09:44.760 --> 3:09:49.880 But somebody says, oh, yeah, I just I just did 3:09:49.959 --> 3:09:54.360 that up in my micro lab. UM. In the same 3:09:54.520 --> 3:09:58.160 way that when you look at the shift that happened 3:09:58.200 --> 3:10:04.840 between oh, you know, the mid eighties in the mid nineties, 3:10:05.720 --> 3:10:11.560 where computers were this strange, scary thing that was, you know, 3:10:11.640 --> 3:10:15.640 we're only accessible or usable by people who were very 3:10:15.680 --> 3:10:18.800 specialized is something that you know, everybody knew about and 3:10:18.800 --> 3:10:21.320 everybody kind of had and everybody sort of used, And 3:10:21.440 --> 3:10:25.119 the same sort of thing that happened between the period 3:10:25.320 --> 3:10:30.080 of time I don't know, maybe ten twelve years ago 3:10:30.200 --> 3:10:34.920 and now with with three D printing, where like stereo 3:10:35.040 --> 3:10:38.520 lithography and rapid prototyping was again the specialized thing that 3:10:38.600 --> 3:10:41.440 a bunch of people who were essentially at the machine 3:10:41.480 --> 3:10:45.760 tool industry had started to spearhead, and now you say 3:10:45.920 --> 3:10:48.560 three printing, everybody knows what it means in the same 3:10:48.600 --> 3:10:52.800 sort of way. I'd very much like to see a 3:10:52.879 --> 3:11:02.359 cultural shift where when somebody is unwell, that when discussions 3:11:02.400 --> 3:11:05.560 between people happened, that instead of the have you had 3:11:05.640 --> 3:11:12.280 that looked at, or you might instead hear from somebody saying, 3:11:12.840 --> 3:11:17.440 well have you read up on that? You know, to 3:11:17.600 --> 3:11:21.440 see people actually engaged in their own health and not 3:11:23.840 --> 3:11:28.240 going through this very typical process of outsourcing responsibility. Now 3:11:28.280 --> 3:11:31.600 it's not to say that like experts aren't good people 3:11:31.720 --> 3:11:34.520 with whom to consult, right, Yeah, we're not talking about 3:11:34.600 --> 3:11:38.760 replacing the idea of medical professionals who can help you 3:11:38.920 --> 3:11:42.640 understand what your health and diagnose and stuff like yeah, well, 3:11:42.720 --> 3:11:47.640 there is again this drastic difference between going to a 3:11:47.879 --> 3:11:51.360 doctor and essentially just like throwing the problem on their 3:11:51.440 --> 3:11:54.440 desk and saying fixed it, call me when it's over, 3:11:55.240 --> 3:11:58.560 versus going to a doctor and saying, hey, I'd like 3:11:58.640 --> 3:12:02.800 to talk about this. I'd like to know more about 3:12:03.000 --> 3:12:07.720 what's wrong here, and I'd like to discuss what the 3:12:07.879 --> 3:12:15.480 options are and what seems best. Um that would be 3:12:15.600 --> 3:12:18.640 great on a lot of levels. And and then these 3:12:18.920 --> 3:12:24.600 questions of access to medication then become even more relevant 3:12:25.200 --> 3:12:30.400 because when you're talking with a doctor and the doctor says, okay, 3:12:30.440 --> 3:12:33.720 well we could try this therapy, but your insurance won't 3:12:33.720 --> 3:12:36.640 pay for it this three hundred thou dollars, you can say, 3:12:36.680 --> 3:12:38.720 all right, well let's just do a little thought experiment 3:12:38.760 --> 3:12:40.640 and if that fell from a truck, what would I 3:12:40.720 --> 3:12:42.960 do with it? And then maybe you can go home 3:12:43.040 --> 3:12:45.520 and say, you know, I'll call you and let you 3:12:45.600 --> 3:12:52.800 know how it goes. I that's that's really my my 3:12:53.040 --> 3:12:55.160 grant hope, And there are so many different ways that 3:12:55.200 --> 3:12:58.160 that can play out. In fact, I'll tell you a 3:12:58.320 --> 3:13:02.680 hilarious story in regards to this, which was in I 3:13:02.720 --> 3:13:06.720 guess it was when we presented it hope. UM. I 3:13:06.879 --> 3:13:10.959 called Martin Shakraley's cell phone from stage UH to try 3:13:11.000 --> 3:13:14.560 and ask him what he thought about what we were doing, 3:13:15.080 --> 3:13:17.120 given that I was handing his drug out for free 3:13:17.920 --> 3:13:20.960 UM and showing people how to make it. And he 3:13:21.040 --> 3:13:22.920 didn't answer the phone when I called him then, but 3:13:22.959 --> 3:13:26.680 he called me back a few hours later, which was 3:13:26.800 --> 3:13:31.200 really hilarious. We actually chatted for a while and the guys, 3:13:31.600 --> 3:13:34.800 I mean a little detached from reality, but he's he's 3:13:34.920 --> 3:13:39.200 no dummy um. And when I sort of described what 3:13:39.280 --> 3:13:41.560 we were trying to do with the micro lab, he 3:13:42.120 --> 3:13:46.200 had some interesting insights and he said, yeah, you know, 3:13:46.400 --> 3:13:48.760 one way I can imagine that working really well is 3:13:49.080 --> 3:13:55.040 if somebody with a little more knowledge of pharmaceutical medicine 3:13:56.200 --> 3:14:00.760 were too, maybe build one of these and serve a 3:14:00.840 --> 3:14:03.760 small community. I think that could be very efficient. And 3:14:03.840 --> 3:14:10.680 I was like, that's a good thought, you Chiseling bastard. Um. Yeah, 3:14:11.400 --> 3:14:13.760 I mean that there's a degree which that's that's kind 3:14:13.800 --> 3:14:16.960 of how I see the most realistic potential. This is 3:14:17.000 --> 3:14:19.520 not every individual making all of their medicine, but kind 3:14:19.520 --> 3:14:22.480 of like you know we had during the fires last year, 3:14:22.560 --> 3:14:25.080 when when our local and state governments during the heatwave 3:14:25.160 --> 3:14:28.480 this year, like completely shat the bed. We had different 3:14:28.600 --> 3:14:31.400 mutual aid collectives do things like we are providing people 3:14:31.440 --> 3:14:33.720 with like oh, it's a blizzard, We're providing people with firewood. 3:14:34.040 --> 3:14:36.840 We are providing people with cooling stations because of the heat. 3:14:36.879 --> 3:14:38.760 You know, we are providing people with they've just fled 3:14:38.840 --> 3:14:41.640 their houses. We have kits that have food and basic 3:14:41.720 --> 3:14:44.520 necessities so they can get through mutual aid collectives that 3:14:44.560 --> 3:14:46.440 are like, well, we are making we specialize and we 3:14:46.480 --> 3:14:49.080 can produce this and this and this medication like these 3:14:49.160 --> 3:14:51.000 three and we have and here's the information you can 3:14:51.040 --> 3:14:53.080 find online about our process. You know that we know 3:14:53.160 --> 3:14:55.040 what we're doing. And if you need these things, you 3:14:55.160 --> 3:14:56.760 let us know and we we get them to you. 3:14:57.080 --> 3:14:59.320 And here's different ways in which people can volunteer if 3:14:59.320 --> 3:15:01.440 you want to help engage in this mutual aid process, 3:15:01.480 --> 3:15:04.760 even if you're not someone who's going to be doing 3:15:04.800 --> 3:15:06.760 a lot of the technical stuff. But we need people 3:15:06.760 --> 3:15:08.200 to go pick up parts, so we need people to 3:15:08.240 --> 3:15:10.320 do this, and you can help us here. You know, 3:15:10.840 --> 3:15:13.360 I see a lot of and I think, yeah, yeah, 3:15:13.440 --> 3:15:15.080 and I think in a similar way, right, A lot 3:15:15.120 --> 3:15:17.680 of that sort of thing is already happening in other 3:15:17.879 --> 3:15:20.320 realms right where. It's the sort of thing where you 3:15:20.840 --> 3:15:24.040 might be building something, or you you see some project 3:15:24.120 --> 3:15:26.600 on GitHub or whatever, and some there are these STL 3:15:26.680 --> 3:15:29.120 files and you go, oh, gosh, well I don't know 3:15:29.200 --> 3:15:31.400 how to do that. Oh right, x y Z down 3:15:31.440 --> 3:15:34.440 the street as a three D printer. I'll go ask her. 3:15:35.080 --> 3:15:38.160 She's really good at making these things. And you say, hey, look, 3:15:38.240 --> 3:15:40.199 I have this thing. Would this be difficult to print? 3:15:40.920 --> 3:15:42.920 And with their experience they can kind of look at 3:15:42.959 --> 3:15:46.280 and be like, I know that that shouldn't be too hard. Um, 3:15:46.720 --> 3:15:48.640 you know, I have some time this weekend, maybe I 3:15:48.680 --> 3:15:51.000 can make that for you. And in the same way, 3:15:51.600 --> 3:15:54.200 you say, hey, it looks like I seem to have 3:15:54.360 --> 3:15:57.560 this rare infection from whatever whatever, or I have this 3:15:57.760 --> 3:16:02.920 odd condition. Um, I wanted to try this medication because 3:16:03.040 --> 3:16:05.920 it might be really helpful, but it's not legal in 3:16:06.000 --> 3:16:09.000 this country. Do you think you can put this together? Again? 3:16:09.080 --> 3:16:11.360 You know, you call somebody and whoever's on the other 3:16:11.440 --> 3:16:14.720 line says, oh, yeah, I have a micro lab. I 3:16:15.120 --> 3:16:16.840 can try and put a program together for that and 3:16:17.080 --> 3:16:19.520 see if I can make it for you. That sort 3:16:19.520 --> 3:16:24.600 of thing I think is a potentially really positive avenue 3:16:24.760 --> 3:16:28.119 for that sort of thing to proliferate and again eventually 3:16:28.800 --> 3:16:36.960 to have a cultural shift where the idea of medicine 3:16:37.040 --> 3:16:42.280 and medical technology not being something that is comes down 3:16:42.520 --> 3:16:47.240 from above, from some authority, but instead is something that's 3:16:47.800 --> 3:16:51.879 managed by people who are part of your community, who 3:16:51.920 --> 3:16:54.320 you already trust. I mean, that's why going to a 3:16:54.440 --> 3:16:56.880 doctor is so scary. They seem to be the arbiter 3:16:57.040 --> 3:17:00.520 of your fate. They're going to tell you whether you're 3:17:00.560 --> 3:17:05.880 well or not. And that is just the truth and 3:17:07.040 --> 3:17:10.560 much better to have it where people are making up 3:17:10.600 --> 3:17:14.520 their own mind based on learning about their own health 3:17:14.800 --> 3:17:19.840 and consulting with people who can give them perspective. Um. 3:17:19.959 --> 3:17:23.400 And if there's more of that, and if it's closer 3:17:23.560 --> 3:17:28.200 to the person who's actually suffering, that I think will 3:17:28.280 --> 3:17:31.680 be on the whole much better. Yeah. It's this the 3:17:32.680 --> 3:17:34.360 and this gets tangled up in a lot of the 3:17:34.400 --> 3:17:36.240 more toxic things we've seen this year, But it's this 3:17:36.400 --> 3:17:43.080 this understanding that with any given problem, if individuals trying 3:17:43.120 --> 3:17:45.840 to solve that problem have more autonomy, and part of 3:17:45.920 --> 3:17:51.600 autonomy is knowledge, that's nearly always better. Um. The problem, 3:17:51.640 --> 3:17:53.240 of course is that like we we get into this 3:17:53.320 --> 3:17:55.640 situation we are now where some people take I'm take 3:17:56.040 --> 3:17:59.920 some people some people use I want to take control 3:18:00.080 --> 3:18:03.119 of my health care to you know, do stuff that's nonsense. 3:18:03.200 --> 3:18:05.920 And that brings us back to the question of like, yeah, 3:18:06.000 --> 3:18:08.320 you need in for the quality of the information that 3:18:08.440 --> 3:18:10.960 you're getting is very important, right because if if you're 3:18:11.400 --> 3:18:14.320 if you if your research is some YouTube video that 3:18:14.360 --> 3:18:16.800 has convinced you that you need to you know, take 3:18:16.879 --> 3:18:19.680 this this horse paste or something, then yeah, that's not good. 3:18:19.879 --> 3:18:23.600 But that doesn't change the fact that, like with food, 3:18:23.760 --> 3:18:27.120 like with with everything that you need to survive, the 3:18:27.240 --> 3:18:32.880 more of a role you have in understanding that deciding 3:18:33.120 --> 3:18:35.039 what to do with that, understanding where it comes from 3:18:35.160 --> 3:18:38.880 and how it is produced. Um. Not just like not 3:18:39.000 --> 3:18:41.080 only is that I think more satisfying as a human, 3:18:41.120 --> 3:18:47.760 but it's it's also critical to to your well being. 3:18:48.240 --> 3:18:51.600 Um it's critical to like on two levels, right on 3:18:51.760 --> 3:18:58.320 two levels, because not only when your health is taken 3:18:58.520 --> 3:19:02.760 from you, it doesn't deprive you of life, but it 3:19:02.879 --> 3:19:06.720 deprives you participating in any of the acts that make 3:19:08.360 --> 3:19:12.120 life meaningful. And part of that key thing that makes 3:19:12.200 --> 3:19:19.800 life meaningful is having a participatory role in the things 3:19:19.879 --> 3:19:23.520 that decide the trajectory of your life. And so when 3:19:23.800 --> 3:19:28.800 you go to the lengths of managing your own health, 3:19:29.600 --> 3:19:34.280 two things happen. First off, your health improves, assuming you've 3:19:34.320 --> 3:19:38.879 made good decisions and get lucky. But second, you're also 3:19:39.200 --> 3:19:44.760 having a participatory role in your life, and that makes 3:19:44.959 --> 3:19:48.880 life more meaningful. And it beyond just kind of the 3:19:49.280 --> 3:19:53.160 self actualization benefits from from a perspective of actually enabling 3:19:53.200 --> 3:19:56.520 people to participate in the move for radical change in 3:19:56.600 --> 3:20:00.720 our society. One necessary element of to any of the 3:20:00.840 --> 3:20:04.840 kind of things that we need is a belief in 3:20:05.000 --> 3:20:09.440 your own agency and power. Um. And also and a 3:20:09.640 --> 3:20:13.359 freedom from the kind of fear that comes from feeling helpless. 3:20:13.440 --> 3:20:16.520 And there is I think probably no feeling worse in 3:20:16.600 --> 3:20:21.480 the world than feeling completely helpless about a treatable medical problem. Um. 3:20:21.640 --> 3:20:23.080 I mean, it's one thing I just went through to 3:20:23.200 --> 3:20:25.040 my mom. When you get a disease where there's just 3:20:25.120 --> 3:20:27.480 nothing that science can do right, where like, yeah, you've 3:20:27.520 --> 3:20:30.119 got this cancer and there there ain't ship anybody has 3:20:30.200 --> 3:20:33.480 for you. You know, that's one kind of horrible, but 3:20:34.600 --> 3:20:36.920 I think it's a lot less terrible than you. I 3:20:37.840 --> 3:20:40.160 have this thing that we can deal with, but I 3:20:40.240 --> 3:20:41.959 either can't afford it or I don't know that I'll 3:20:41.959 --> 3:20:43.880 be able to afford it. I had a horrible I 3:20:43.959 --> 3:20:46.640 lost my job in my healthcare in seventeen and so 3:20:46.840 --> 3:20:49.360 did a person who was on my healthcare with me 3:20:49.440 --> 3:20:53.800 that I love very much. And I got this, you know, 3:20:54.000 --> 3:20:56.640 hired here in healthcare a couple of years later. And 3:20:56.720 --> 3:21:01.520 it happened that a month before the the I started 3:21:01.560 --> 3:21:04.120 my health care at this new job, this person who 3:21:04.200 --> 3:21:06.920 was on my healthcare with me um got diagnosed with 3:21:06.959 --> 3:21:09.240 a brain tumor, and thankfully not a cancerous one, but 3:21:09.240 --> 3:21:11.040 the one that they had to take medication for that 3:21:11.120 --> 3:21:14.560 would have been would have bankrupted us, you know, without 3:21:15.480 --> 3:21:18.800 the without insurance, and thankfully it worked out fine. The 3:21:18.879 --> 3:21:21.480 timing worked out okay. But there's not a week that 3:21:21.600 --> 3:21:24.560 goes by that I don't and it it it's it's 3:21:25.280 --> 3:21:27.840 it is something that makes you less willing to take risks, 3:21:27.920 --> 3:21:31.840 less willing to participate in in things that because you 3:21:31.959 --> 3:21:33.320 have in the back of your head, well, I have 3:21:33.520 --> 3:21:35.480 to I have to keep this job, I have to 3:21:35.560 --> 3:21:39.160 keep this insurance, I have to y yeah. That and 3:21:39.800 --> 3:21:42.880 that's another thing that I find so heartbreaking. There's so 3:21:43.040 --> 3:21:48.440 many people that I've I've met totally outside of my 3:21:48.560 --> 3:21:53.480 activism who lament about working a job that they hate, 3:21:53.560 --> 3:21:57.320 and I say, gosh, for you know, I mean, you 3:21:57.680 --> 3:22:00.760 consider just bailing on it and looking for something else 3:22:00.840 --> 3:22:05.680 and trying something else. And they have this total paralysis 3:22:06.920 --> 3:22:11.360 of saying, but if I quit my job, I won't 3:22:11.400 --> 3:22:17.360 have healthcare mhm and and and mind you like, these 3:22:17.520 --> 3:22:22.600 were people who were incredibly healthy. These were not people 3:22:22.640 --> 3:22:27.240 who had any regular visits to healthcare. They're just scared 3:22:27.320 --> 3:22:30.080 that if something comes up, they want people to handle it. 3:22:30.640 --> 3:22:34.480 And it's it's a perfectly well grounded fear. But as 3:22:34.600 --> 3:22:39.280 you point out, what this does is it works as 3:22:39.360 --> 3:22:47.560 this sort of shadow oppressive mechanism to keep people from exploring, 3:22:47.920 --> 3:22:50.560 trying things, as you say, taking risks, or or just 3:22:51.400 --> 3:22:58.880 doing things that that don't involve a an optimization toward 3:22:58.959 --> 3:23:01.800 a stable state of maybe just like yeah, maybe it'll 3:23:01.840 --> 3:23:04.320 start a small business, and yeah it probably will fail, 3:23:04.360 --> 3:23:08.120 but that will be a cool adventure. And most people, 3:23:08.480 --> 3:23:11.000 you know, so many people, maybe not most, but many 3:23:11.080 --> 3:23:16.760 many people, um get just terrified into this state of 3:23:16.920 --> 3:23:21.840 inertial paralysis. Yeah, and it contributes to people being afraid 3:23:21.879 --> 3:23:24.320 to take to the street to protest the police because 3:23:24.360 --> 3:23:26.360 maybe they get arrested, and maybe they get fired, and 3:23:26.400 --> 3:23:29.040 then you know, maybe their kid can't afford their Like 3:23:29.120 --> 3:23:32.160 there's a thousand ways. I think, honestly, the fear of 3:23:32.440 --> 3:23:35.879 losing your health care is in some ways as great 3:23:36.080 --> 3:23:39.240 a greater counter revolutionary force than any law enforcement agency 3:23:39.280 --> 3:23:41.560 could hope to be, because the fear is so much 3:23:41.600 --> 3:23:46.360 more immediate to so many people. Nobody talks about that, 3:23:46.879 --> 3:23:49.360 And thank you so much for mentioning it, because it's 3:23:49.400 --> 3:23:52.280 something that like, oftentimes I try to bring up when 3:23:53.160 --> 3:23:56.600 I'm discussing things in public for and and oftentimes people 3:23:56.680 --> 3:23:58.240 kind of raise an eyebrow and me and be like, 3:23:58.560 --> 3:24:00.480 that's what's the big deal, And I'm like, I don't know. Like, 3:24:00.760 --> 3:24:04.039 if you look two layers deep, there's something that's really 3:24:04.200 --> 3:24:12.160 working against people being able to exercise protests, and it's, uh, 3:24:12.560 --> 3:24:16.680 it's it's it's this really silent, terrifying force that seems 3:24:16.720 --> 3:24:22.280 to underlie everything. And if you could alleviate that, if 3:24:22.320 --> 3:24:25.040 you could get to the point where people are like, yeah, 3:24:25.080 --> 3:24:27.440 the hell with it, you know, I don't need a 3:24:27.720 --> 3:24:31.240 job to take care of me, then all of a 3:24:31.320 --> 3:24:36.640 sudden so many possibilities just blossom in the mind. Yeah, 3:24:38.040 --> 3:24:40.080 if you have, like it, say, if you're a parent 3:24:40.120 --> 3:24:44.240 who has a child with you know who, who's insolent dependent. Uh, 3:24:44.840 --> 3:24:47.840 there's not a lot of difference in my mind between 3:24:48.000 --> 3:24:50.880 the fact that between someone holding a gun to your 3:24:50.920 --> 3:24:53.480 head and your boss being able to fire you and 3:24:53.560 --> 3:24:56.199 take away your your kids access to that insulent there's 3:24:56.200 --> 3:24:59.400 not a tremendous moral difference to me, Um, there's not. 3:25:00.320 --> 3:25:02.680 I'd say getting a gun to your head is actually 3:25:03.520 --> 3:25:08.160 more likely to survive that it's less inevitable. You could 3:25:08.200 --> 3:25:11.600 talk your way out of that, and yeah, whatever, but 3:25:11.800 --> 3:25:13.880 there are any number of things that might go wrong there. 3:25:13.920 --> 3:25:16.680 But if somebody takes takes away your insulin, that's the 3:25:17.000 --> 3:25:20.320 end of this story. Yeah, I guess the more salient 3:25:20.400 --> 3:25:23.160 point than the comparison issues. They're both acts of violence, 3:25:23.560 --> 3:25:25.920 and in every way that's meaningful, I think they're both 3:25:25.959 --> 3:25:28.680 acts of violence. Well, and one way that when I 3:25:29.520 --> 3:25:34.400 rail against intellectual property as a concept and intellectual property law, 3:25:35.080 --> 3:25:37.680 the example that I give is they say, if somebody 3:25:37.760 --> 3:25:41.119 were dying and you knew how to save them, would 3:25:41.120 --> 3:25:45.080 you ever not tell them how and just watch them 3:25:45.200 --> 3:25:48.000 die say oh no, that idea belongs to me, and 3:25:48.080 --> 3:25:51.240 I'm not going to share unless you pay me. Like 3:25:51.600 --> 3:25:55.040 no human being that I think I've ever heard of 3:25:55.760 --> 3:26:03.440 would do that. And yet this happens day because we've 3:26:03.520 --> 3:26:07.880 sort of carried these questions of copyright into patents and 3:26:08.480 --> 3:26:10.560 despite the fact that they're hundreds of years old and 3:26:10.840 --> 3:26:16.400 not applicable anymore, assuming they were ever applicable, and people 3:26:16.520 --> 3:26:19.400 just die because people say, oh, well, we can make 3:26:19.440 --> 3:26:21.720 more money if we do it this way. There's a 3:26:21.760 --> 3:26:25.400 fascinating thing going on there when you when you really 3:26:25.480 --> 3:26:27.240 drill into that idea, because I suspect there are a 3:26:27.360 --> 3:26:31.800 lot of people who have who are are integral in 3:26:31.920 --> 3:26:35.200 propping up this system, both of kind of medical intellectual 3:26:35.280 --> 3:26:37.720 property and of just like the pharmaceutical industry, the way 3:26:37.760 --> 3:26:40.440 that it works people in politics, huge numbers of people 3:26:40.480 --> 3:26:43.520 who are integral in some facet of keeping that going, 3:26:43.920 --> 3:26:47.119 who also, were they to see an individual and immediate 3:26:47.160 --> 3:26:50.520 medical distress, would never think of like try getting their 3:26:51.080 --> 3:26:54.160 debit card number or whatever, like asking them, would would 3:26:54.320 --> 3:26:57.400 without thinking attempt because that's what people do, and it's 3:26:57.440 --> 3:26:58.880 I mean, this is where we get into kind of 3:26:58.959 --> 3:27:03.480 some of these more philosophical anarchist ideas about what hierarchy 3:27:03.680 --> 3:27:07.480 does and what these structures do, because structures enable people 3:27:07.520 --> 3:27:11.960 to participate in evil that they never would as an individual. Um, yeah, 3:27:12.040 --> 3:27:16.160 there's this easy route that, but many easy routes that 3:27:16.280 --> 3:27:21.560 pop up that allow people or force, I should say 3:27:21.640 --> 3:27:25.600 force people to be displaced from their humanity in that 3:27:25.760 --> 3:27:29.320 sort of way where, yes, of course, you you help 3:27:29.440 --> 3:27:33.200 somebody up off of subway tracks if they've fallen. Yes, 3:27:33.280 --> 3:27:36.560 of course, if somebody were drowning, you drag them out 3:27:36.640 --> 3:27:40.520 and save them. And yet just because it's a degree 3:27:40.600 --> 3:27:44.760 removed and it's mediated by an agency, suddenly it's so 3:27:45.400 --> 3:27:49.560 easy to forget and ignore and be sort of complicit. 3:27:49.680 --> 3:27:53.840 And yeah, and I just to go back around to 3:27:53.920 --> 3:27:56.440 what four Thieves is doing and what y'all are doing. 3:27:56.959 --> 3:28:00.360 It's one of the few projects going on right now 3:28:01.080 --> 3:28:05.360 that fits what my idealistic nineteen year old brain thought 3:28:05.400 --> 3:28:07.640 the Internet would be sixteen fifteen, Like when I when 3:28:07.680 --> 3:28:09.840 it was, when things were newer and a little less. 3:28:10.520 --> 3:28:12.440 We're like, oh, this is like one of these days, 3:28:12.520 --> 3:28:15.039 well this kind of ship is going to happen. Um, 3:28:16.080 --> 3:28:18.120 And that is I think, I mean, that's that's not 3:28:18.560 --> 3:28:21.760 without value from again a revolutionary perspective, the fact that 3:28:21.840 --> 3:28:25.920 it is pretty rad you know. Well, I mean I 3:28:26.040 --> 3:28:28.400 will not deny the fact that it feels good, you 3:28:28.480 --> 3:28:32.600 know there. I think that I think that we all 3:28:32.720 --> 3:28:37.040 grew up with that sort of hope and belief that 3:28:37.600 --> 3:28:40.360 we were gonna open these new doors and there were 3:28:40.400 --> 3:28:43.000 going to be these new possibilities and things that we 3:28:44.160 --> 3:28:46.800 have been reading about in science fiction. We're going to 3:28:46.879 --> 3:28:51.880 become real and and there's there's a great satisfaction in 3:28:52.520 --> 3:28:56.520 not just witnessing your childhood dreams become realities, but actually, 3:28:56.720 --> 3:28:59.640 you know, having a hand in it. Uh, It's there's 3:28:59.760 --> 3:29:02.920 there's something quite satisfying about that. I will yeah, I 3:29:03.000 --> 3:29:07.320 will admit, well, I think that's a pretty good point 3:29:07.400 --> 3:29:09.400 to close out on today. I don't need to take 3:29:09.480 --> 3:29:11.720 up too much more of your time right now, Michael. 3:29:11.760 --> 3:29:14.880 But but as I told people, I'm gonna be I'm 3:29:14.920 --> 3:29:16.959 gonna be trying to get into some of this because 3:29:16.959 --> 3:29:20.800 I find it just both fascinating and incredibly hopeful. Um, 3:29:21.200 --> 3:29:25.080 in a world where it seems like, uh, there are 3:29:25.160 --> 3:29:28.720 constantly forces conspiring to strip people of their ability to 3:29:28.800 --> 3:29:32.160 take control of critical aspects of their lives. You and 3:29:32.400 --> 3:29:35.200 your your colleagues in this are trying to give people 3:29:36.200 --> 3:29:40.880 opportunities to take some some power back for themselves, and 3:29:40.959 --> 3:29:46.119 I just think that's it's pretty dope. Thank you so much. Yeah, 3:29:46.240 --> 3:29:48.800 and see your listeners. If there are people out there 3:29:48.840 --> 3:29:51.320 who like what we're doing, you want to support the project, 3:29:52.200 --> 3:29:55.880 please go find somebody who needs your help but doesn't 3:29:55.920 --> 3:29:59.360 deserve it, and then go help them anyway. Yeah, Yeah, 3:29:59.480 --> 3:30:03.039 that's always a good thing to do. Um, Michael, anything else, 3:30:03.080 --> 3:30:05.560 any like a thing else you want to kind of 3:30:05.760 --> 3:30:08.560 put this is normally this section where people plug websites 3:30:08.680 --> 3:30:10.840 or projects or anything. You've got anything in particularly you 3:30:10.879 --> 3:30:15.199 want to throw out there right now. Uh. Sure. We're 3:30:15.280 --> 3:30:17.360 hoping to do a bunch of big releases in the 3:30:17.760 --> 3:30:22.280 summer um, so look for those. In the meantime, we're 3:30:22.360 --> 3:30:26.160 always looking for help, So if you're out there and 3:30:26.360 --> 3:30:30.400 you'd like to be assisted in the project, uh, please 3:30:30.440 --> 3:30:33.279 get in touch. There's the contact us page on the website. 3:30:33.600 --> 3:30:35.880 And by the way, this do not have to be 3:30:35.959 --> 3:30:39.480 a technical person. We're looking for currently, we're looking for writers. 3:30:40.000 --> 3:30:42.080 We have a lot of documentation that we need to do. 3:30:42.320 --> 3:30:45.360 So if you're out there and you have, you know, 3:30:46.320 --> 3:30:51.840 background in in language, then that would be great. If 3:30:52.080 --> 3:30:55.199 if you're somebody who feels that you're entirely without skills, 3:30:55.480 --> 3:30:58.880 please get in touch. We have any number of endless 3:30:58.920 --> 3:31:01.440 small tasks that just need to be taken care of 3:31:01.480 --> 3:31:04.440 because we don't have enough people. So if you'd like 3:31:04.560 --> 3:31:07.280 to participate, we'd love to have you. Please get in 3:31:07.400 --> 3:31:11.600 touch and in the meantime, keep each other healthy, keep 3:31:11.640 --> 3:31:15.560 each other. Thank you so much, Michael, thanks so much 3:31:15.600 --> 3:31:29.920 for having me. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more 3:31:30.000 --> 3:31:32.640 episodes every week from now until the heat death of 3:31:32.680 --> 3:31:35.440 the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of 3:31:35.480 --> 3:31:38.400 cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 3:31:38.520 --> 3:31:40.959 visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 3:31:41.040 --> 3:31:43.279 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:31:43.400 --> 3:31:46.400 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 3:31:46.440 --> 3:31:49.000 for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 3:31:49.040 --> 3:31:51.760 Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.