Speaker 1: Even if you are in happy marriage or relationship, you
Speaker 1: need other people to make you feel truly content. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have
Speaker 1: recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like
Speaker 1: garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think
Speaker 1: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 1: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 1: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 1: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 1: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Speaker 1: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
Speaker 1: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 1: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: how they feed their good wolf m Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Our guest on this episode is Catherine Gray, and you
Speaker 1: may remember she was actually a guest once before when
Speaker 1: her book The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober was released.
Speaker 1: She now has a new book called The Unexpected Joy
Speaker 1: of Being Single, Locating Happily Single, Serenity. Hi Catherine, Welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Hi alright, thanks for having me. It
Speaker 1: is a pleasure to have you on again. We have
Speaker 1: not had a whole lot of guests who have been
Speaker 1: on more than one time. And you might set the
Speaker 1: record for the guests who was back on the fastest,
Speaker 1: but I don't. I haven't measured that, but it's close,
Speaker 1: So welcome back. I feel honored, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: So your new book is called The Unexpected Joy of
Speaker 1: Being Single, Locating Happily Single Serenity, and that's yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's a follow on to the Unexpected Joy of Being Sober.
Speaker 1: And so we'll get into the book in a minute,
Speaker 1: but let's start like we always do with the parable.
Speaker 1: There is a grandmother who's talking with her grandson and
Speaker 1: she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of
Speaker 1: us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like kindness, bravery, and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he
Speaker 1: thinks about it for a second, and he looks up
Speaker 1: at his grandmother and he says, well, grandmother, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you to answer for
Speaker 1: the second time, what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: your life and in the work that you do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely so in the context of being single. So this
Speaker 1: will be slightly different to my answer last time. I
Speaker 1: would say that the bad wolf for me represents that
Speaker 1: victim mentality that I am very prone to myself around
Speaker 1: being single. You know, no really loves me, I'm going
Speaker 1: to die alone, that sort of thing, um, And a
Speaker 1: lot of that comes from societal messaging. So it's about
Speaker 1: learning to block those negative messages. And the good world
Speaker 1: for me is things like I am enough, I am complete,
Speaker 1: and also that this is the right choice for me
Speaker 1: right now, rather than feeling like single them has been
Speaker 1: thrust upon me. Um. So for me, that those are
Speaker 1: the two wolves. That's a great answer and a great
Speaker 1: way to put it kind of in context of what
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about. So I'm just going
Speaker 1: to read something that you say early in the book
Speaker 1: and then we'll kind of go from there. And you say,
Speaker 1: if being single is so terrible, why are more than
Speaker 1: half of us choosing it over coupling? Simple, because it's
Speaker 1: not terrible. Being single for an extended period of time
Speaker 1: or for life can be incredibly empowering, fun and emancipating.
Speaker 1: Being single is a heck of a lot better than
Speaker 1: panic settling, that's for sure. Panics settling that cracks me up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's it absolutely in the UK, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure well the Western world in general single has seen
Speaker 1: is quite a sad existence. Um, it's a it's a
Speaker 1: waiting existence. It's you'll meet someone soon, your life will
Speaker 1: begin soon sort of thing. And I don't think that's
Speaker 1: the case. I think it's all about perception. If you
Speaker 1: see it as equally as nourishing and revitalizing a sort
Speaker 1: of life, then you will enjoy it all the more. So.
Speaker 1: I think it's really about reframing your perception of being
Speaker 1: single and um, questioning the narratives and conditioning around being single. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it must be a testament to the strangeness of my
Speaker 1: social circle that I was the one that felt weird
Speaker 1: for getting married years ago. But really interesting. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: I just I mean, yeah, just most of my really
Speaker 1: good friends are not They are single, they've been single
Speaker 1: and they for a long time. We're not young, so yeah,
Speaker 1: I that's just been my frame of reference from a
Speaker 1: lot of my friends, and I think some of the
Speaker 1: stuff that you go on to say, I think is
Speaker 1: really useful because you're not sort of advocating for being single. No, no,
Speaker 1: it's no, it's not that at all. Yeah, you're just saying,
Speaker 1: and I love this. You say, there are perks to
Speaker 1: both ways of life, single and attached. We both look
Speaker 1: over the fence at each other's grass and long to
Speaker 1: roll around in it. Isn't it true? Though? Because I
Speaker 1: interviewed a psychotherapist for the book and she said something
Speaker 1: really interesting. She said, often I'll have somebody come into
Speaker 1: a session and it will be somebody who's single later
Speaker 1: in life, and they're saying, if only I could meet
Speaker 1: the one, then I would be happy. And then afterwards
Speaker 1: she'll see someone who's married and they're saying, if only
Speaker 1: I was single, I would be happy. And there's just
Speaker 1: this feeling of the grass is greenness syndrome, and we're
Speaker 1: not appreciating the things that are good about either way
Speaker 1: of life. Um, so I think it's really important to
Speaker 1: absolutely enjoy where you are at that time. I agree.
Speaker 1: I mean I have been happily single, happily coupled, unhappily single,
Speaker 1: unhappily coupled. I mean I've had all those variations and
Speaker 1: and it is. There's just pros and cons to both.
Speaker 1: And it's just another variation of thinking, Okay, I have
Speaker 1: to be you know, I have to be in a couple,
Speaker 1: or I have to be married or whatever to be happy.
Speaker 1: It's just another variation on the you know, if then
Speaker 1: happiness loop. Right, If I get this, then I'll be happy.
Speaker 1: If I get this, then I'll be happy. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: it always moves. It's always a moving target. I find
Speaker 1: that if if then, um so, it just doesn't work.
Speaker 1: It's it's all about choosing to be present and make
Speaker 1: the most of where you're at exactly. And I think
Speaker 1: it's just another variation I've been learning about the hedonic
Speaker 1: abdept Shan model, which I mean it's we've all heard
Speaker 1: of the hedonic treadmill, right, you just keep chasing after things. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I thought it was called hedonistic. I think
Speaker 1: I've said it wrong in the book. No it might not. No,
Speaker 1: no it might not be. I'm just this is what
Speaker 1: this one has been called. She just calls it the uh,
Speaker 1: the hedonic adaptation model. But um so it's a little
Speaker 1: bit different than than that. But but the essence of
Speaker 1: it is exactly what we're talking about, which is that
Speaker 1: you essentially get used to whatever you have, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: and then you shoot for the next thing that's right,
Speaker 1: that's right. And it's that it's that very thought process
Speaker 1: which is almost impossible to completely overcome because I think
Speaker 1: it's kind of built into us to some degree. But
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things we can do to counter it.
Speaker 1: And I think to your point, that's what this is
Speaker 1: in the single versus being coupled model, is that you
Speaker 1: just think that the other thing would make you happy,
Speaker 1: when the reality is I believe we can all be
Speaker 1: happy within within parameters, with whatever circumstances were in Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: It's like, for instance, at the minute, I live alone.
Speaker 1: I'm in a one bedroom apartment in future Brighton by
Speaker 1: the Sea, and I could look at this two ways.
Speaker 1: I could be like, oh, I'm so lonely I come
Speaker 1: home and there's nobody to greet me. Or I'm so
Speaker 1: independent and I come home and I can eat whatever
Speaker 1: I want and watch whatever I want, and go to
Speaker 1: bed whatever I want, and the bathroom is always free
Speaker 1: if I want to bath which I choose the latter.
Speaker 1: So it's it's all about how you see it, I think,
Speaker 1: and counting up your gratitudes. As you said earlier, I've
Speaker 1: been in relationships where I've been really happy, and I've
Speaker 1: also been in relationships where I've been deeply unhappy. And
Speaker 1: I've cohabited with a couple of boyfriends, one of which
Speaker 1: was a very toxic relationship, and I was very, very
Speaker 1: lonely in that relationship, even though we slept six centimeters
Speaker 1: away from each other. Um so, and I don't think
Speaker 1: there is a lonelier place to be than constantly with somebody,
Speaker 1: but you feel unheard and uncherished and unappreciated. So, um
Speaker 1: single is definitely better than a bad relationship, for sure.
Speaker 1: I one concur as somebody who spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time in a bad relationship. And you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: blaming anyone at all. It was just a bad relationship.
Speaker 1: And it is miserable to be in a relationship and
Speaker 1: be that lonely and feeling stuck and all of that.
Speaker 1: So I agree, yeah, and feeling paralyzed thing scared to
Speaker 1: end the relationship. There was an extraordinary survey that I
Speaker 1: came across when I was researching the book, which asked
Speaker 1: twenty thousand people what would make them are the most happy,
Speaker 1: And five thousand of them, so a quarter of them
Speaker 1: said finding someone other than their current partner. I mean, what,
Speaker 1: so those five those five thousand people should be single
Speaker 1: if they're that miserable in whatever relationship they're in. But
Speaker 1: they're not because I'm guessing they're scared of the alternative.
Speaker 1: They're scared of being single. They're scared of being alone. Um,
Speaker 1: and that just makes me really sad. So in a way,
Speaker 1: I wrote the book for a couple of people too,
Speaker 1: because if we're so scared of being single, then we
Speaker 1: don't have that freedom. Shoot, we don't have the alternative,
Speaker 1: which means that we get stuck in toxic relationships. So
Speaker 1: that's why I wanted to break down the stigma around
Speaker 1: being signaled and and show people that actually we're just
Speaker 1: as happy. So um, yeah that was important to me. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally agree. I mean, I think people end up
Speaker 1: being stuck in relationships for for a variety of factors.
Speaker 1: Being afraid of being alone is one of them, and
Speaker 1: then there are others. If you've got kids and you've
Speaker 1: got you know, different things. But I agree with you,
Speaker 1: like stay in a relationship because you're afraid you'll be
Speaker 1: alone is a terrible, terrible idea. Yeah, yeah, I understand
Speaker 1: it exactly. I've done it years. So I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: read another quote from you, because you're writing just always,
Speaker 1: I think is so good and cracks me up. And
Speaker 1: you're talking about your time sort of your sobriety to
Speaker 1: this book, and you say, if you had mapped my
Speaker 1: personality islands in my twenties, there would have been a
Speaker 1: booze island, a mort Or style I'll filled with lost handbags,
Speaker 1: nightclubs like be at One, slavering demons and bottomless abysses.
Speaker 1: But the island that would have been just as big
Speaker 1: and just as malevolent would have been Man Island. It
Speaker 1: was constantly illuminated, shaking and beset with thunderstorms, like a
Speaker 1: possessed amusement park. That whole phrase is so good. A
Speaker 1: possessed amusement park. That's a great phrase for, uh, some
Speaker 1: of my internal conditions at points. Thank you well. It
Speaker 1: is a roller coast of being in a relationship, isn't
Speaker 1: it um? And I think the two coexists so often
Speaker 1: drinking and love addiction, because well they just do, which
Speaker 1: is why some people call recovering from love addiction the
Speaker 1: second sobriety. Right, Um, yeah, so I think this is
Speaker 1: absolutely a trend for those two things to go hand
Speaker 1: in hand, the dating app and the glass of wine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would agree, which makes me have to pull out
Speaker 1: one other phrase from later in the book when you
Speaker 1: talk about the dating app, because it's you quoted somebody
Speaker 1: who wrote this. This is from writer Mark Simpson, who
Speaker 1: calls singles who spend hours a day trawling dating apps
Speaker 1: the unpaid secretaries of desire, which is just so brilliant,
Speaker 1: such a great, great phrase. But but back to what
Speaker 1: we were talking about, I agree. I think that love
Speaker 1: addiction very often came and be the second sobriety. I
Speaker 1: know it was in a lot of ways for me.
Speaker 1: I went through that, you know, I had to go
Speaker 1: through some of that. And it sounds like you and
Speaker 1: I are sort of similar in our love addiction. And
Speaker 1: I feel I feel remarkably recovered like I do from alcohol. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know what you mean. You know, I feel like
Speaker 1: that's been a long time coming. Yeah, And and so
Speaker 1: let's talk about it. You refer to yourself as a
Speaker 1: batshit crazy love addict, So talk to me about what
Speaker 1: has been a love addict mean to you? Okay, Well
Speaker 1: I did a lot of research into this, and love
Speaker 1: addiction is a real thing. So in the UK we
Speaker 1: have the foremost we have clinic would probably be considered
Speaker 1: to be the priory. We have clinic and I'm doing
Speaker 1: this by memory. But they defined love addiction as clinging
Speaker 1: to idealized versions of relationships, staying in toxic relationships, and
Speaker 1: just in general allowing your behavior to become warped because
Speaker 1: you're obsessed with preserving that relationship that the most important
Speaker 1: thing to you is making sure that relationship does not end,
Speaker 1: even if it's a toxic one. Um. So in me,
Speaker 1: this manifested in all sorts of behavior that was actually
Speaker 1: detrimental to my relationships. I would do things like snoop
Speaker 1: on messages to make sure that they weren't about to
Speaker 1: leave me, or find out if there was any other
Speaker 1: people in the picture, to try and preserve the relationship.
Speaker 1: But of course snooping on people's messages is absolutely invasion
Speaker 1: of privacy and so that created loads of problems. Um,
Speaker 1: I was very needy. I needed a lot of attention,
Speaker 1: that's another classic sign. Um. And also because I was
Speaker 1: addicted to attention from um, the opposite sex, the gender
Speaker 1: that I'm attracted to. I also cheated so I would
Speaker 1: go out. But this is related to my drinking as well.
Speaker 1: It was always pretty much when I was black out drunk,
Speaker 1: so I would go out and caught attention from other
Speaker 1: men and kiss other men. So it was it was
Speaker 1: just something that I was fixated on um, this romantic attention,
Speaker 1: and I would do anything to get it right. You
Speaker 1: say that when I wasn't with someone, I felt flat
Speaker 1: and dark, like a pitch black room that waits for
Speaker 1: someone to come along, flick on the light and animate
Speaker 1: it once more. And that describes me so much, as
Speaker 1: you know. Earlier for me was like if I wasn't
Speaker 1: in a relationship, that was the primary thing I was after.
Speaker 1: That's what I thought made me whole. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: I got into some of what we'll talk about here
Speaker 1: in a second, which is why we fancy that's an
Speaker 1: English term. For US American listeners, we might say like
Speaker 1: in different people more, but for me it was like
Speaker 1: I was I was looking for that, that relationship or
Speaker 1: that thing to fill up some hole in me so
Speaker 1: I would get it, and when it didn't fill up
Speaker 1: the hole because it can't. I would suddenly conclude that
Speaker 1: the partner was the problem. Yeah, and then it would
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, now I need the next thing, which
Speaker 1: is the same thing as like thinking if I get
Speaker 1: this promotion at work, then I'll be happy. Once I
Speaker 1: get it, I don't find myself happy. I start thinking
Speaker 1: I need the next It's the same mental process, which
Speaker 1: is I'm trying to fill some hole with something from
Speaker 1: the outside, and when I get it and it doesn't work,
Speaker 1: I assume the problem is what I got, not the
Speaker 1: entire underline thought process and emotional structure. Yeah. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: It's the whole mark of addiction, isn't it. It's you
Speaker 1: never have enough enough? Is this ever moving neon sign
Speaker 1: that you're trying to get to and you can never
Speaker 1: reach it? So um, And you're right, it's because you
Speaker 1: feel this whole inside of you and you try and
Speaker 1: fill it with glasses of wine or um whatever your
Speaker 1: drug of choices or a person and that just doesn't work.
Speaker 1: So um. The only person who can make you feel
Speaker 1: whole is yourself. Right. And you actually talk about this
Speaker 1: a little bit later on. Um, I used to think,
Speaker 1: like you know everything was like an inside job at
Speaker 1: all came from inside of me. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that show has taught me over and over is that,
Speaker 1: you know, these external connections are important. But what you
Speaker 1: talk about later in the book is how some psychologists say,
Speaker 1: you know, you need bonding with three, four or five people,
Speaker 1: not one. Yeah, order to have a solid social connection,
Speaker 1: which is important to our well being. Yeah, I think so. Um.
Speaker 1: That was from a famous Oxford anthropologist I think is
Speaker 1: called Robin dunbar Um, and he said that we need
Speaker 1: five people, five close people, in order to be happy,
Speaker 1: not just one. So there's also this famous quote from
Speaker 1: a psychotherapist called Esther Perel who says something like, we
Speaker 1: go to one person and we expect them to give
Speaker 1: us everything. Give me security, give me novelty, give me
Speaker 1: you know, all of these contradictory things. And once that
Speaker 1: would have taken a whole family or a whole village,
Speaker 1: we would have looked to the entire community. And now
Speaker 1: we're looking for this one person, this soulmate, to provide
Speaker 1: it all, and that just doesn't work. Nobody can do that. Um.
Speaker 1: So I think it's it's very important to remember even
Speaker 1: if you are in a happy marriage or relationship that
Speaker 1: you need the other people as well, Tom to make
Speaker 1: you feel truly content, so not to put all your
Speaker 1: eggs in one basket. To coin a British phrase, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so too. I mean, certainly I am in
Speaker 1: a crazy happy relationship now and have been for for
Speaker 1: years at this point, which I honestly did not at
Speaker 1: a certain point in my life think was possible at all.
Speaker 1: I thought, like, I am broken, won't work. I relate
Speaker 1: to that. For me, it was sort of startling to
Speaker 1: me what happened when the right person came along. But
Speaker 1: that was also after decades of personal growth and learning
Speaker 1: and all that. Um. But my point of all that
Speaker 1: was even being in that my other friendships are still
Speaker 1: so important to me. And one of the things that
Speaker 1: you mentioned somewhere in the book, and I have it
Speaker 1: my notes here, but this made it come up, which
Speaker 1: is one of the things that can be problematic about
Speaker 1: being coupled is that we we give up everything else. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so a marriage or a relationship pushes out on average
Speaker 1: too close friends, which I can completely understand, because when
Speaker 1: you become coupled, you become more insular. Another really interesting
Speaker 1: thing is that people that live alone have been shown
Speaker 1: to be more sociable and less lonely, and I think
Speaker 1: the reason for that is that you make more of
Speaker 1: an effort to get out there and socialized, Whereas when
Speaker 1: I've lived with boyfriends in the past, it's just so
Speaker 1: easy to come home and lie in front of the
Speaker 1: TV and not really talk, Whereas now I make sure
Speaker 1: my social calendar is quite um, not too full because
Speaker 1: I'm an intro it, but full enough with exciting things
Speaker 1: to do, whereas before I would just come home and
Speaker 1: stick on Breaking Bad. So it's I think that's true.
Speaker 1: We can become more insulate in a couple and neglect
Speaker 1: our friendships and also as times taken up by our partners,
Speaker 1: friends and family as well, so who we aren't necessarily
Speaker 1: they're not our chosen ones, so I think it's important
Speaker 1: to preserve that autonomy and make sure that our loved
Speaker 1: ones are still getting the attention and FaceTime. It's possible
Speaker 1: Chris is going to insert an editor's note here that
Speaker 1: says watching Breaking Bad is never a bad idea, so
Speaker 1: it's just possible he's going to do that, and I
Speaker 1: kind of have to agree. It is a pretty brilliant show. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: back to the hedonic adaptation model that I have been
Speaker 1: reading about. There was a scientific study about it in
Speaker 1: the context of relationships, saying that this happens in relationships,
Speaker 1: and one way to avoid it is to do exactly
Speaker 1: what you're suggesting, which has not come home and watch
Speaker 1: breaking at every day it's too introduce novelty into the relationship.
Speaker 1: Do different things together, you know, that keep you from
Speaker 1: being coming so adapted to your partner and board and
Speaker 1: falling into that same routine. Yeah, I think that's quite advice. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: So let's move into why we fancy in different people more.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just give you my relationship history up until,
Speaker 1: you know, five years ago, in a nutshell meet someone,
Speaker 1: fall head over heels with them, get into the relationship,
Speaker 1: they start to really like me. I become bored, I
Speaker 1: become distant, I become I want out. I want out,
Speaker 1: but of course I don't do it. And then they
Speaker 1: finally are like, this is ridiculous, and they leave and
Speaker 1: I have a complete and utter breakdown because they're the
Speaker 1: most important thing in the entire world to me and
Speaker 1: I must have them back. And so and the few
Speaker 1: of my relationships that that never happened in are the
Speaker 1: ones where I never fully felt like they really wanted me. Yeah, see,
Speaker 1: you hadn't on them, so they remain slightly distant. Well,
Speaker 1: this is this is just something that replays over and
Speaker 1: over in millions of different relationships. Um. And one of
Speaker 1: the reasons is it's something called reward uncertainty, whereby when
Speaker 1: we know that we're going to get a reward, we
Speaker 1: can become less interested in the reward. So if you
Speaker 1: text somebody and you're not entirely sure they're going to
Speaker 1: text back, when they do text back, it gives us
Speaker 1: more of a hit of dopamine, so our brain lights
Speaker 1: up like a Christmas tree. Whereas when we know they're
Speaker 1: going to text back, you're slightly bored when you receive
Speaker 1: the reply, which is just our brain making us fancy
Speaker 1: the wrong people. So the people that are consistent and
Speaker 1: reliable and always reply are the people that we fancy
Speaker 1: the least. Um. So it's just annoying. But once you're
Speaker 1: aware of it, then you can begin to rexify it.
Speaker 1: Like anything, the awareness is the key to changing that behavior. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that now I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: that mechanism actually seems not to be completely gone, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it is not the driving force for me at all anymore.
Speaker 1: It's like I somehow have gotten to the point where
Speaker 1: knowing that somebody cares about me and loves me and
Speaker 1: is always there has become something I'm like. I love it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think that's something that clicks into place once
Speaker 1: you like yourself and respect yourself. More so before, when
Speaker 1: I didn't like myself or respect myself, when somebody was
Speaker 1: really really into me, I thought there was something wrong
Speaker 1: with them, right, I really did so, and so I
Speaker 1: would reject them. So whereas the people that weren't sure
Speaker 1: about me I was more interested in because I thought, um,
Speaker 1: they've probably got the right idea because I don't really
Speaker 1: like myself either, so therefore I'm going to try and
Speaker 1: win them over. And I was completely unaware of this
Speaker 1: at the time, but that's what was going on. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just so interesting once you dismantle it and take
Speaker 1: it apart. Yeah, I agree. I thought this was perfect
Speaker 1: because this describes me pretty darn well. You say that.
Speaker 1: As a result, when a partner is a super keen
Speaker 1: eight into me, even if I liked him at first,
Speaker 1: I will find things wrong with them in order to
Speaker 1: unhook myself. Whereas when a man is sixty to seventy
Speaker 1: nine percent keen, that's when I'm hooked. That's when I
Speaker 1: become the emoji with heart shaped eyes. Anything less than
Speaker 1: sixty and my dignity kicks in. Yeah, this is so true,
Speaker 1: so so so perfect. And you know this reward uncertainty
Speaker 1: is not just related to relationships, right, It's it's across
Speaker 1: the board. When we don't know that we'll always get
Speaker 1: the reward, we're much more likely to keep seeking it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it is across the board. And it's also related
Speaker 1: to um attachment styles, which I'm sure you want to
Speaker 1: talk about as well. So let's go there. Yeah, let's
Speaker 1: do it. I'm not an expert in this, but I've
Speaker 1: read a lot about it. There's an amazing book called Attached,
Speaker 1: which is by neuroscientists called amere Levin and a psychologist
Speaker 1: called Rachelor something. I'm so sorry I can't remember her
Speaker 1: last name, but it's incredible and it was one of
Speaker 1: those books that I read and it just made everything
Speaker 1: makes sense. So the theory goes and it's based on
Speaker 1: a wealth of research that we have three different attachment styles, um,
Speaker 1: and it's created in early childhood which attachment style you are,
Speaker 1: And there's anxious attached, secure attached, and avoidant attached. Now
Speaker 1: I'm an anxious attacher, which explains all the needyness, and
Speaker 1: I basically expect rejection rather than I am surprised by it.
Speaker 1: And anxious attachers tend to be overwhelmingly attracted to avoidant
Speaker 1: attachers who will avoid and swerve close relationships. So it's
Speaker 1: so interesting. Secure attached people tend to end up in
Speaker 1: relationships with other secure attached people, and so the rest
Speaker 1: of us are left in this sort of merry dance
Speaker 1: avoiding an anxious It's just it's just a nightmare. But
Speaker 1: you can change your attachment style. So I was really interested.
Speaker 1: So I did it from that. There's loads of quizzes
Speaker 1: in the book. And I did it from the point
Speaker 1: of view of me when I was drinking and at
Speaker 1: my most chronical love addiction stage, which was five and
Speaker 1: a bit years ago. And I did it from the
Speaker 1: point of view of me now and I'm moving much
Speaker 1: more towards secure attachment just because I've been doing so
Speaker 1: much work on myself. So that was a revelation for me,
Speaker 1: I don't know about you. Well, I haven't read the book,
Speaker 1: but I have heard of attachment styles. I have a
Speaker 1: question for you though about that. So you mentioned that
Speaker 1: you're anxious attachment, but then that also turns into avoidant
Speaker 1: for you, when you're turning into avoiding a relationship or
Speaker 1: pushing it away. Is that not your attachment style. It's
Speaker 1: just a it's a behavioral mechanism that results as part
Speaker 1: of your attachment style or from your attachment style. I
Speaker 1: think it's part of the anxious attachment style, whereby if
Speaker 1: you seek avoidant people. So I think I see what
Speaker 1: you're saying, that I switched from anxious to avoidant. Maybe
Speaker 1: that is the case. Maybe I'm a double winner, anxious
Speaker 1: and avoidant. I haven't really explored that, but it's entirely possible. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so when people get too close you, you
Speaker 1: swerve away. It's just it just means that you would
Speaker 1: never end up in a content fulfilled relationship. So learning
Speaker 1: about that was really important for me to reframe that
Speaker 1: and understand where I've behaved in some ways in the
Speaker 1: past and how to change my behavior and future. That book,
Speaker 1: I've seen it come across a couple of recommendations now,
Speaker 1: and I recently suggested it to a coaching client and
Speaker 1: she is absolutely loving it. So thank you for the suggestion.
Speaker 1: Already helping others. It's a great book. I recommend every
Speaker 1: I'll read it. Let's talk about love addiction. We've talked
Speaker 1: about what it is, how it might manifest, and so
Speaker 1: one of the things you say is, okay, I'm a
Speaker 1: love addict. Great, but in a way it's good news
Speaker 1: because it already means you have the tools in your
Speaker 1: arsenal to beat this. So let's talk about what are
Speaker 1: some of the tools that you learned from sobriety, from
Speaker 1: getting sober from alcohol that you've now been able to
Speaker 1: use with love addiction. Yeah. Sure, So I decided when
Speaker 1: I first got sober, I completely ignored the advice to
Speaker 1: take a year off dating and got into quite a
Speaker 1: serious relationship for six months, and then when that ended,
Speaker 1: I was really quite crushed, very crushed. But it was
Speaker 1: more to do with my fear of being single and
Speaker 1: fear of being ending up alone or left on a
Speaker 1: shelf or whatever you want to call it um And
Speaker 1: so I decided to take an entire year off So
Speaker 1: for me, that abstinence was really important, and it helped
Speaker 1: me completely reframe the way I see my life. And
Speaker 1: it also helped me see that I can get happiness
Speaker 1: from all sorts of different sources and love from all
Speaker 1: sorts of different sources. Romantic love is not the most
Speaker 1: powerful form of love. Familiar love and platonic loves are
Speaker 1: just as powerful. Um. So that was really important that
Speaker 1: year completely off dating, I didn't so much as whold
Speaker 1: a man's hand, um, And that reset everything for me.
Speaker 1: But then I reintroduced it, which I haven't done with
Speaker 1: alcohol because well, I can tell you, yeah, I could
Speaker 1: tell you. So I did the same thing. I took
Speaker 1: I think nine months off dating at one point, which
Speaker 1: was great for me. I also, at one point in
Speaker 1: my life reintroduced alcohol and it did not go well.
Speaker 1: So we're not built for moderation. I don't. I don't think,
Speaker 1: even with all my development and growth, that that's ever
Speaker 1: going to be a good idea. I hope I remember that,
Speaker 1: and I have no desire to it you either. It's
Speaker 1: just it repulses me now actually alcohol. But that I
Speaker 1: am over five years, so I think that comes later.
Speaker 1: The thing that you said a little while ago that
Speaker 1: struck me was about how like, once you got sober,
Speaker 1: you know, the way you behave changed so much, And
Speaker 1: it's just I always think it's remarkable how easy it
Speaker 1: how much easier it is to be faithful when you're sober.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it really is. I mean I was
Speaker 1: never faithful before, and it was never premeditated. It was
Speaker 1: always when I was off my face, which it just
Speaker 1: is a British term meaning very drunk. So it was
Speaker 1: never something that I planned to do. And I was
Speaker 1: the geet. The guilt would eat away at me, it
Speaker 1: crucified me, and I didn't understand why I couldn't get it,
Speaker 1: why I couldn't stay faithful when I couldn't stop myself
Speaker 1: from kissing other blokes. And then it just it was
Speaker 1: so simple. Just take away the alcohol and you know,
Speaker 1: it would never even occur to me to be unfaithful now,
Speaker 1: it just it will never happen. I can a d
Speaker 1: say I will never be unfaithful now that I don't
Speaker 1: drink um. And I think so many people go through
Speaker 1: that torment. It's it's just such a shame that they
Speaker 1: don't realize it's a it's a side effect of the
Speaker 1: alcohol not their character, right, Yes, yes, alcohol will cause
Speaker 1: infidelity and will cause any number of terrible decisions. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: taking codes off in public. Yeah yeah. The list goes
Speaker 1: on and on and we don't need to recount them all.
Speaker 1: But let's not go there, alright, So let's talk about
Speaker 1: the tools. Yeah sure, so, m Yeah, I think it
Speaker 1: was very much a case of for me, I really
Speaker 1: really looked at the social conditioning around alcohol, and I
Speaker 1: did the same around being single, because we are told
Speaker 1: in a million different ways that being single is sad.
Speaker 1: In fact, I saw an advert the other day on
Speaker 1: the tube and it stopped me in my tracks. I
Speaker 1: literally stopped and stood there and people there was like
Speaker 1: a sea of people moving around me because I couldn't
Speaker 1: believe it. It was an advert for a dating app,
Speaker 1: and I won't mention which one, but it said single
Speaker 1: is your time to shine, and it showed these happy people.
Speaker 1: And the reason it stopped me in my tracks, it's
Speaker 1: because I've never seen an advert that was pro single before.
Speaker 1: Um and you know you'll turn on the radio. I
Speaker 1: had an advert for a credit card the other day
Speaker 1: which I have no idea why it said this, but
Speaker 1: it said we know that being single is no fun,
Speaker 1: So get our credit card. I don't know what that's selling,
Speaker 1: but it's everywhere. It's in rom comsum and once you
Speaker 1: start looking out for it. It's from our relatives as well.
Speaker 1: You know, if you say you're single, they'll say they're there.
Speaker 1: You'll meet someone soon. You know, you'll be cured, soon,
Speaker 1: someone will come along and release you from this terrible fate. Ums.
Speaker 1: It's the same as the drinking thing. We're told that
Speaker 1: alcohol provides fun, and sobriety is boring, and we're told
Speaker 1: that relationship provide contentment and being single is a lonely
Speaker 1: and awful So once you're aware of that, you can
Speaker 1: detach from it. So that was a really important tool
Speaker 1: for me, and I think so much of you know
Speaker 1: that cultural peace is there and it is transforming a
Speaker 1: little bit. I was started watching Downton Abbey recently. I
Speaker 1: had never watched it, you know, at least in the
Speaker 1: early part of that show, like getting those daughters married
Speaker 1: is like a matter of life death, right, Like how
Speaker 1: serious it is. And so if you look back and
Speaker 1: you think about what being a single woman has historically meant,
Speaker 1: it's not been a great thing. Those days are so
Speaker 1: very very different now, but we're not fully culturally caught up. No, no,
Speaker 1: And it literally was a matter of life or death
Speaker 1: back in back in those days, because if your parents
Speaker 1: hadn't managed to marry you off, then when they were gone,
Speaker 1: if there if there was no inheritance, then how are
Speaker 1: you going to survive? So, you know, when you look
Speaker 1: at the it was the seventies in Britain when women
Speaker 1: were able to open their own bank accounts, buy a house,
Speaker 1: you know, so they really were very reliant on men before,
Speaker 1: whether it was a father or a husband. And we
Speaker 1: still don't have wager quality in the UK certainly, so
Speaker 1: he can. Yeah, it's it's it's such a problem. But
Speaker 1: we can provide for ourselves and we can have careers,
Speaker 1: and we can put a roof over our heads, and
Speaker 1: women can have a baby now without being socially ostracized
Speaker 1: if they're not married. So there's been so much progress.
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of the single movement is
Speaker 1: simply because of feminism or in other words, equality. So
Speaker 1: I think that's it's important to recognize that that's why
Speaker 1: this generation is more single than any generation before, because
Speaker 1: we can be yeah, exactly, definitely, I interrupted you there.
Speaker 1: You mentioned understanding the cultural programming was one of your
Speaker 1: tools for dealing with it. Yeah, and also just knowing
Speaker 1: that a thought can't. So I was pretty addicted to
Speaker 1: dating apps when I quit drinking and then ended this
Speaker 1: relationship with this six month guy. Um. So before I
Speaker 1: took the year off, I just was constantly stabbing at
Speaker 1: dating apps trying to fill the vacancy that you know,
Speaker 1: this boyfriend's going missing had created, almost as if I
Speaker 1: was looking for a new job. That's how urgent I
Speaker 1: felt about it. Um. And it's the same you. You know,
Speaker 1: I know now that a thought cannot make me drink,
Speaker 1: even though I don't have thoughts about drinking anymore, but
Speaker 1: I did for many, many years. And you know that
Speaker 1: a thought of oh, you could have a drink, now,
Speaker 1: what about a drink? That drink would be nice? That
Speaker 1: doesn't have to make you drink, um, And those thoughts
Speaker 1: go away the time. So it's the same with using
Speaker 1: a dating app or texting an X. A thought doesn't
Speaker 1: have to lead to an action. So that was really
Speaker 1: important that it's such a great phrase. I thought doesn't
Speaker 1: have to lead to an action, thank you. Um. And
Speaker 1: just simple things that I've learned from recovery like cults,
Speaker 1: which is hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Um. Sometimes I will
Speaker 1: feel overwhelmed by single sorrow. I remember there was this
Speaker 1: one time this summer where I was walking because I'm
Speaker 1: not fixed by the way, I still have days where
Speaker 1: I'm consumed by single sorrow. And I think it's important
Speaker 1: to say that so that people know that it's completely normal.
Speaker 1: Where I was walking up this hill in Barcelona and
Speaker 1: I was crying behind my sunglasses because I'm not married
Speaker 1: and everyone else around seemed to be married. Um. And
Speaker 1: then I had a snack and I was fine. So
Speaker 1: it's sometimes something that feels like an emotional tragedy is
Speaker 1: just that you're hungry, or you need a nap, or
Speaker 1: you need to phone somebody, you know, just like Holt
Speaker 1: in recovery, which is such. It's was the bedrock my
Speaker 1: early recovery. Um. So yeah, which for listeners is don't
Speaker 1: let yourself get too hungry, angry, lonely or tired. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is so. I don't know if they have these
Speaker 1: commercials in the UK, but there were some commercials they
Speaker 1: were running here for Snickers candy bars in the US
Speaker 1: and it's this funny commercial where I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: of exactly what is like a full grown man, like
Speaker 1: a football player, gets hungry and he just turns into
Speaker 1: this like almost weeping, high strung, totally emotional, over the
Speaker 1: top deep diva. Yeah yeah, and then then you eat
Speaker 1: the Snickers bar and boom, it all goes away. And
Speaker 1: I mean that is so, I mean, I agree. I
Speaker 1: still fall back on that, you know, hungry, angry only
Speaker 1: and tired. And I've always thought that's a strange combination
Speaker 1: of four words, because two of those you just eat
Speaker 1: or sleep, um, the other to take a little bit
Speaker 1: more work with, like all right, I'm angry, Okay, that's
Speaker 1: gonna you know, it's not the solution isn't is biological
Speaker 1: or lonely. The solution isn't is biological, although it's all wise.
Speaker 1: I've just kind of thought that that's a strange grouping
Speaker 1: of those categories. You say, yeah, you say, realizing in
Speaker 1: an emotional Greek tragedy often has a fourhead slappingly simple
Speaker 1: solution pierces its power. Yeah, it really does. Um. And
Speaker 1: one of my methods so something that I used because
Speaker 1: I found that when I was unhappily single, which was
Speaker 1: always in my twenties and thirties, I would constantly comb
Speaker 1: over past relationships. Um. This is another really key thing. Um.
Speaker 1: I think, even if you are in good terms with
Speaker 1: an x, if you keep looking at their profile on
Speaker 1: Facebook or in Instagram or whatever, you need to block
Speaker 1: them because you can't move past that until you stop
Speaker 1: looking at that. And it's a very modern problem. I mean,
Speaker 1: we did not have this in the nineties. You did
Speaker 1: not You were not able to see your ex with
Speaker 1: his new girlfriend on holiday and or a video of
Speaker 1: them playing with their toddler. You know, these things are
Speaker 1: threatening our mental health. So even though it feels like
Speaker 1: you're sort of losing control of them, if you block
Speaker 1: them and delete them, um, and you know, it's like
Speaker 1: keeping a piece of them, still being friends with them
Speaker 1: on Facebook. You it's absolutely a gift to your mental
Speaker 1: health to delete them, and you're allowing yourself to move
Speaker 1: on and that is a healthy thing. So that was
Speaker 1: something that I really realized. Yeah, I agree. I mean, luckily,
Speaker 1: I think I have not spent a ton of time
Speaker 1: in the truly single world in the Facebook age, only
Speaker 1: a little bit, but I recognize how bad that could
Speaker 1: really be Well, we are somehow here at the end
Speaker 1: of our time. Well, here's here's the good and bad news.
Speaker 1: The bad news is where at the end of our
Speaker 1: time here. The good news is that you and I
Speaker 1: are going to continue talking in our post show conversation,
Speaker 1: which listeners you can get access to by going to
Speaker 1: when you Feed dot net slash Support. And I think
Speaker 1: some of what you and I are going to talk
Speaker 1: about is exercise gratitude, turning your brain from a worry
Speaker 1: sinking instrument into a bounty hunting machine. Explain what that means,
Speaker 1: and maybe talk about how learning and growth is not linear.
Speaker 1: So again, listeners, you can find us in the post
Speaker 1: show conversation when you Feed dot net Slash Support. And Catherine,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1: As always, Thank you for having me, and thanks for
Speaker 1: everyone listening. Bye bye ye. If what you just heard
Speaker 1: was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to
Speaker 1: the One You Feed podcast. Head over to one you
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Speaker 1: would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.