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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson,

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Speaker 1: and Holly is not here today, so instead I have

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Speaker 1: a very special guest, which is Nate Demeyo of the

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Speaker 1: podcast The Memory Palace and also author of the forthcoming

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Speaker 1: book The Memory Palace, which is coming out from Random

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Speaker 1: House on November nineteenth. If you're not familiar with Nate's show,

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Speaker 1: you will get a chance to change that in just

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Speaker 1: a few minutes. Hi, Nate, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: I am so happy to be here. I'm a longtime

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Speaker 2: fan of the show.

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Speaker 1: I'm a longtime fan of your show. Also, you have

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Speaker 1: been on our show once before. That was nine years ago,

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Speaker 1: which is hard to believe. At that time you had

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Speaker 1: sixty five episodes. Now there are more than two hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty episodes of your show from just looking at

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Speaker 1: the website today. How are we both still doing this?

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Speaker 1: I guess that's my first question. Does it surprise you

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Speaker 1: that all these years later we're both still doing the

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Speaker 1: same thing?

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Speaker 2: You know, it does and it doesn't. On the one hand,

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Speaker 2: you know, nine years so I was realizing that I

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Speaker 2: am this is my fifteenth year of doing the Memory Palace.

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Speaker 2: I'm about to enter my sixteenth year, and that is

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Speaker 2: sort of insane. And it's been easy for me to

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Speaker 2: keep track of that because it kind of started shortly

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Speaker 2: after my daughter was born and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I need to make sure I have like a creative

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Speaker 2: outlet that I'm like building and and she's she's about

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Speaker 2: to turn sixteenth in a couple of weeks. So here

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Speaker 2: we are. Wow. Yeah, But that's the thing that is

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Speaker 2: actually more surprising than just its longevity is the notion

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Speaker 2: that you know, nine years ago felt like we've been

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Speaker 2: doing for a long time. It felt like we were

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Speaker 2: really it did. It really did. But on the on

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Speaker 2: the other hand, like I discovered fairly early on when

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Speaker 2: I started to do the short narrative his you know,

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Speaker 2: historical stories put them to music, kind of found a

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Speaker 2: voice that was you know, factually accurate, but also a

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Speaker 2: little bit dreamy and a little bit you know, focused

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Speaker 2: on sort of wonder and uh and kind of just

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Speaker 2: like the mystery of not just like the mystery of

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Speaker 2: living in the past, but living in the present with

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Speaker 2: the past, you know, the way that just for people

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Speaker 2: who love historical stories like we do in thinking about

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Speaker 2: it that just kind of like magic place that invoking

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Speaker 2: the past and the people that live there kind of

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Speaker 2: brings out in you. I really discovered fairly early on

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Speaker 2: as I started doing this that setting aside, you know,

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Speaker 2: careerism and setting setting aside deadlines, there was just something

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Speaker 2: I found personally useful and kind of exciting about doing

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Speaker 2: these stories and about like taking the time to to

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Speaker 2: read about, uh, you know, these figures and forgotten moments

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Speaker 2: and you know, you know, find words you know and

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Speaker 2: find words in music, and the combination of those two

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Speaker 2: things to like kind of share that sort of wonder

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Speaker 2: that experiencing those things like brought out in me and

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Speaker 2: share them with listeners and so like, as a result,

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Speaker 2: like this just kind of feels like a thing. I

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Speaker 2: feel like I found a thing that was useful to

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Speaker 2: my life, and as a result, it feels like a

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Speaker 2: thing I'm just kind of going to be doing in

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Speaker 2: some capacity forever. Like I felt like I stumbled upon

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Speaker 2: a venue in the podcast to like express these things.

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Speaker 2: So on the one hand, like, yeah, sixteen years is

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Speaker 2: a very long time, But in the other hand, it's

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Speaker 2: a little bit of like, yeah, this is my life now,

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Speaker 2: and it remains a big and vital part of it.

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Speaker 1: I love that it sort of reminds me of how

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Speaker 1: I used to say that the first thing I found

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Speaker 1: that I was really good at was being in college.

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Speaker 1: And when I was hired to write for the website

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Speaker 1: HowStuffWorks dot com, which is a totally different website now

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Speaker 1: than it was when they hired me, I was like

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Speaker 1: being in college again, because I was spending all of

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Speaker 1: my time learning something and then writing about what I learned.

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Speaker 1: And now my job is still that, but now I

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Speaker 1: say the thing into a microphone afterward, and so it

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Speaker 1: continues to be sort of an evolution of the first

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Speaker 1: thing that I found that I thought I was good

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Speaker 1: at and also enjoyed.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And the truth of the matter, too,

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Speaker 2: is there's also that aspect of like, at some point

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Speaker 2: your spouse or your friend or the person at the

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Speaker 2: bar gets a little bit tired of you saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: I just learned this amazing thing and putting now you

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Speaker 2: can put it out into the you know, one puts

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Speaker 2: it out into the air in hopes that the people

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Speaker 2: that will be excited will find it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so stuff you Missed in History Class and The

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Speaker 1: Memory Palace. These are both podcasts about history. Obviously, you

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Speaker 1: and I and Holly, all three of us are taking

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Speaker 1: an approach that a lot of people describe as thoughtful,

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Speaker 1: but your shows are like a third the length of

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Speaker 1: virus most of the time. The last time you were

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Speaker 1: on the show, we talked about the fact that you

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Speaker 1: have some episodes that are five minutes long, that Holly

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Speaker 1: and I get into the same store and we wind

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Speaker 1: up with two thirty to forty minute episodes. Something you

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Speaker 1: talk about in your book that I think sort of

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Speaker 1: highlighted the way that we are each approaching history in

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Speaker 1: ways that are both similar and different. Is you talked

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Speaker 1: about that all of the stories you cover on your

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Speaker 1: show start with something that moved you. Holly and I

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Speaker 1: often talk about starting with things that interest us. So

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Speaker 1: sort of your show starts with kind of a thoughtful

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Speaker 1: meditation on something that moved you, while Holly and I

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Speaker 1: are more explaining all the things that we found interesting

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Speaker 1: about a particular subject. So can you tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about, like what has led you to focus

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Speaker 1: so much on being moved by something and on that

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Speaker 1: level of emotional impact in historical stories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that similar to your notion of like

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Speaker 2: that the thing that that click for you was when

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Speaker 2: you found a job that felt like you were back

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Speaker 2: in college. For me, when I first got into journalism,

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Speaker 2: there was just this sense of like I was a

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Speaker 2: kid and then a young adult who was always like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm one of those people who's kind of like good

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Speaker 2: in a number of different things and interested in a

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Speaker 2: ton of different stuff, and it's hard to choose. I

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Speaker 2: was one of one of those people, and in journalism,

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Speaker 2: and now the memory Palace like kind of allows me

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Speaker 2: not to choose. It's like it puts the value on like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I am interested in a lot of different stuff. And

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Speaker 2: so yes, there is that interest that one might be

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Speaker 2: interested in how bridges are constructed, and one might be

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Speaker 2: interested in the invention of the zipper or or what

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Speaker 2: happened at this battle or that battle. But the thing

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Speaker 2: that I find when I go to museums and the

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Speaker 2: things that I find when I read history is that

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Speaker 2: like that over and over again. What that spark where

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Speaker 2: I'm sort of like, oh, I do need to go

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Speaker 2: tell this to my spouse, I do want to text

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Speaker 2: my friend about that thing? Is that this thing has

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Speaker 2: moved me, and like I mean that like in the

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Speaker 2: in this straightforward sense like that it has like spurred

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Speaker 2: some emotion. It has made me think nostalgically about old friends.

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Speaker 2: It has taught me something about parenting. It has you know,

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Speaker 2: just like like thrilled me with like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I cannot believe that people live that way how you know,

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Speaker 2: and reminded me that we live differently and that notion

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Speaker 2: of being moved like to me, it's, uh, that's you know,

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Speaker 2: that's what I look for in life. It's what I

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Speaker 2: look for in a movie, is that I want to

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Speaker 2: you know, come out and feel a little bit differently

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Speaker 2: than I went in. And I just kind of had

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Speaker 2: discovered that that was true of the past, that there

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Speaker 2: was this kind of like magic that the that the

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Speaker 2: past held for me, like that it was this kind

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Speaker 2: of like imaginative space that you could go back and

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Speaker 2: you could read about George Washington, or you could go

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Speaker 2: back and you could read about you know, Shipwreck Kelly,

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Speaker 2: the guy who became you know, famous for you know,

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Speaker 2: sitting on tall objects for inordinate amounts of time, and

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Speaker 2: that real space. These are these are real things that

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Speaker 2: happen to real people. But what it really is doing

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Speaker 2: is it's exciting your imagination. Like that, reading about history

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Speaker 2: when it's good is no different than reading a than

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Speaker 2: reading a novel. And I wanted to create a show

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Speaker 2: that took that approach to history. And it doesn't mean that,

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Speaker 2: you know, you know that, it doesn't mean that I'm

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Speaker 2: any less serious about getting the fact straight. But I

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Speaker 2: have always been very feeling forward when it comes to

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Speaker 2: experiencing that stuff, and so the format that made the

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Speaker 2: most sense to me was also very feeling forward, Like

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Speaker 2: I want to create a show and write stories for

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Speaker 2: this book about history that make you feel, things that

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Speaker 2: that break your heart, that delight you. And yeah, and

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Speaker 2: there's something you know when I when I read my

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Speaker 2: own book, as I did recently with my audio, you know,

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Speaker 2: with with sections of my audiobook, I'm like, boy, this

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Speaker 2: is an earnest person. That's just it is the truth.

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Speaker 2: Like it is a very feelings forward approach to history,

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Speaker 2: in a very wonder focused approach, and it continues to

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Speaker 2: delight and drive me from story to story.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me please you to know that I started

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Speaker 1: crying while reading your book about a story that not

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Speaker 1: only did I already know but that we also have

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Speaker 1: covered on our podcast, which was about Ruth Harkness and

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Speaker 1: the first panda brought to the United States and just

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Speaker 1: sort of the discussion of Ruth and who she was

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Speaker 1: and thinking about what her interior world was like. As

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Speaker 1: all of that was going on, I was sitting at

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Speaker 1: my desk and realized, I was, like, I've been moved

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Speaker 1: to tears by this thing that I already feel very

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Speaker 1: intimately familiar with.

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Speaker 2: That's in yeah, I know, I think that that. Really

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Speaker 2: I think all the time about why we remember the

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Speaker 2: things we remember, you know that like in some of

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Speaker 2: it is, oh, I remember that experience I have at

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Speaker 2: the park, that scary experience, because you know, our bodies

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Speaker 2: are telling us to remember the trauma of that. But

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Speaker 2: I also like think a lot about the kind of

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Speaker 2: inverse of trauma, just that things that are so delightful,

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Speaker 2: like things that like allow you to connect with with

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Speaker 2: another human being, Like those are the other things you remember?

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Speaker 2: You remember that you know, novel exciting day with a

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Speaker 2: parent when they took you to the park when you

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Speaker 2: weren't expecting to go to the park, or something like that.

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Speaker 2: And I think all the time about like why it

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Speaker 2: is that I remember, you know, certain events in my life.

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Speaker 2: We are constantly like inundated with historical information like you do,

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Speaker 2: like not just because we might be history buffs, but

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Speaker 2: things pop up on the internet. I think you know

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Speaker 2: things in your Instagram reel. There are all these like

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Speaker 2: little you know facts about history, but there just aren't

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Speaker 2: that many that are the ones that like make you

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Speaker 2: suddenly tear up, or that you know again, make you

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Speaker 2: want to, you know, turn to your spouse or text

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Speaker 2: your friend. And I've come to really like trust those

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Speaker 2: things and be fascinated by why those are the things

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Speaker 2: that move me, Like why is it the story you

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Speaker 2: know of Ruth Harkness and this woman going out to

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Speaker 2: continue her husband's mission to find a panda, her recently

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Speaker 2: deceased husband's mission to bring it live panda back to

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Speaker 2: the United States, the first one you know that will

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Speaker 2: leave China. And when those things move me, then I

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Speaker 2: turn around to try to figure out, like, how can

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Speaker 2: I also share this experience with someone else? And I'm

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Speaker 2: glad that it seems like it worked in this in

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Speaker 2: this case.

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Speaker 1: My next question was going to be about how you

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Speaker 1: decided which stories to put in the book, And I'm

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Speaker 1: imagining that everything you just said was probably a big

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Speaker 1: influence on that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. You know, I grew up really

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Speaker 2: loving kind of anthology books, you know, whether it was

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Speaker 2: just sort of like the Book of Lists or like

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Speaker 2: Ripley's Believe It or not, like these like these books

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Speaker 2: of these short little pieces of different types like just

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Speaker 2: held such sway on my like young reader life. But

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Speaker 2: that's not really a thing that exists as we as

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Speaker 2: we become adults. Like there are magazines and magazines kind

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Speaker 2: of have that can have that magic. But I wanted

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Speaker 2: to kind of create one of those kind of like

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Speaker 2: magic books that you get lost in. But ultimately that

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Speaker 2: was one for adults that these were that these were

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Speaker 2: going to be stories that had like heft and that

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Speaker 2: had you know, depth, that you did have the ability

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Speaker 2: to move you and to you know, potentially change you

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Speaker 2: or change the way you think, you know, not just

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Speaker 2: about the past, but things, you know, the way that

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Speaker 2: you might live your life in the present, like you know,

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Speaker 2: to be really kind of pretentious about it, but I

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Speaker 2: also wanted to just simply have the power to kind

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Speaker 2: of change your day that you have this book of

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Speaker 2: these short stories that you can like I really for

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Speaker 2: the first time in a long time. The Memory Palace,

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Speaker 2: you know, has always just kind of been this, you know,

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Speaker 2: nice evocative name. But I kind of wanted to create

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Speaker 2: something that felt like wandering in through a museum, one

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Speaker 2: that you could take at your own pace, you know,

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Speaker 2: one that you could read a couple of stories and

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Speaker 2: put down, you know, one that you could pick up

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Speaker 2: in the middle and see a picture that grabbed you

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Speaker 2: and just start there. Like I wanted to create like

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Speaker 2: a book that was like a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: port or something like that. And so as a result,

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Speaker 2: it just kind of became this this you know, practical

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Speaker 2: question of how many stories should be pre existing stories

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Speaker 2: that people love from the podcast, how many of these

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Speaker 2: stories should be new, how many stories should be you know,

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Speaker 2: favorites that people who have listen, been listening for a

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Speaker 2: long time, you know, will want to have the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to kind of own and hold in their hands, you know,

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Speaker 2: which is an opportunity that like, you know, as fans,

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Speaker 2: as a person who loves your show, it's like I

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Speaker 2: don't quite have like there is not that chance to

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Speaker 2: just like, you know, in the same way that you

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Speaker 2: know that there are episodes of yours that I love

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Speaker 2: and in the same ways that I might love like that,

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Speaker 2: I might have like loved a book, but there's just

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Speaker 2: it would be nice to have that episode on my shelf,

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Speaker 2: and it's been nice to give people the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: do that. And so someone is like, which ones might

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Speaker 2: people want to read and own and hold, Which one

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Speaker 2: of these are simply just the best of what I've done,

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Speaker 2: Which one of these frankly will work well on the page.

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Speaker 2: There are some stories that are clearly audio stories from

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Speaker 2: the podcasts that because they have you know, a bit

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Speaker 2: of audio, or there's just something about the way the

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Speaker 2: music needs to work, or there's just something about the

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Speaker 2: way that I need to dictate pace with my voice

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Speaker 2: that simply just don't hold up on the page or

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Speaker 2: don't work as well on the page. So there are

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Speaker 2: those considerations, and then there was you know, also considerations

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Speaker 2: about what opportunities does a book present. And for me,

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Speaker 2: a lot of that was visual, So I created you

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Speaker 2: know a number of news stories that you know, hinge

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Speaker 2: upon seeing images, which created you know, a whole set

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Speaker 2: of stories that are about photographs, but also about the

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Speaker 2: history of photography and about sort of the history of

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Speaker 2: seeing in the history of living with visual records of

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Speaker 2: our lives and our memories, which was its own opportunity.

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Speaker 2: But then there was also a question that came from

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Speaker 2: the publisher, which is essentially like, is this a chance

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Speaker 2: that you have to kind of like let people under

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Speaker 2: the hood who do like the show, like to kind

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Speaker 2: of like let them know, like where these stories come

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Speaker 2: from or that sort of thing. And every idea that

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Speaker 2: pitched on that sounded like bad DVD commentary, you know,

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Speaker 2: and it was just like no, no, no, I want

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Speaker 2: to like like, I would be delighted if every Memory

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Speaker 2: Palace listener bought this book. But the truth of that

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Speaker 2: is like this is a great opportunity to get in

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Speaker 2: front of people or are just readers and notion of

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Speaker 2: like like, hey, this story that you just read about

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Speaker 2: Ruth Darkness, let me tell you where that came from.

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Speaker 2: Like that's not the way books work, Like they don't

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Speaker 2: come with that sort of experience. But I ultimately, like

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Speaker 2: did find as I was compiling the book and as

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Speaker 2: I was you know, really engaging with the breadth of

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Speaker 2: the work over the course of all of these years,

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Speaker 2: I just kept having this feeling that like I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of an odd duck, Like this is an odd passion

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Speaker 2: that I have, and this is like a slightly skewed

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Speaker 2: perspective on sometimes familiar things, or just that my curritorial

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Speaker 2: vision about the things that move me and the things

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Speaker 2: that interest me that I and the things I feel

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Speaker 2: this weird need to share with people comes from a

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Speaker 2: kind of strange person in strange consciousness, and like as

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Speaker 2: a result, there's like I think it is kind of

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Speaker 2: worth unpacking, and so so I end up kind of

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Speaker 2: developing this series of memoir stories. It's kind of nested

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Speaker 2: demoir stories that I think ultimately give the reader, whether

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Speaker 2: they're new to the stories or not, the sense of

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Speaker 2: what makes them tick through the lens of what makes

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Speaker 2: me tick. I love all of.

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Speaker 1: That, and I loved those final stories in the book.

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Speaker 1: I was not expecting to have those and to have

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Speaker 1: kind of a personal insight into sort of some of

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Speaker 1: your thought process. We are going to take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll get to hear a show

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Speaker 1: from your podcast. The next thing that you all are

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Speaker 1: going to hear on the show today is one of

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Speaker 1: Nate Demeyo's episodes of the Memory Palace. It is called

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Speaker 1: the Temple of Dender, and we will.

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Speaker 2: Just let that go. This is the Memory Palace. I'm

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Speaker 2: Nate de Mau at the start of a timeline of

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Speaker 2: the history of the Temple of Dender. There's a story

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Speaker 2: that goes that Caesar Augustus, the first Roman Emperor, the

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Speaker 2: adoptive son of Julius. Caesar, after defeating Antony and Cleopatra

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Speaker 2: and taking over Egypt, wanted to keep his new subjects

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Speaker 2: in line, so he built a number of temples up

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Speaker 2: and down the Nile to the local gods. It was

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Speaker 2: a way to show the folks so that the new

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Speaker 2: boss wasn't so bad, he wasn't going to force some

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Speaker 2: weird new religion down their throats. And it was a

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Speaker 2: show of largesse, a splash of cash on a public

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Speaker 2: works project. He picked Dender, or his people picked Dender,

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Speaker 2: just north of Aswan, because there was a smaller temple

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Speaker 2: there already to two princes who drowned nearby in the Nile,

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Speaker 2: and had, through some mechanism of belief that held sway

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Speaker 2: for a relatively brief time in ancient Egypt, become gods.

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Speaker 2: And so the people of Dender had been used to

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Speaker 2: going to that spot already to make offerings to deities,

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Speaker 2: to ask for bountiful harvests and mild flooding and healthy

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Speaker 2: suns who wouldn't drown. And so the Romans signed off

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Speaker 2: in that location for Ahmadas structure. And a few years later,

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Speaker 2: around ten BC, there was this temple dedicated to Isis

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Speaker 2: in Osiris and the two princes. And there were men

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Speaker 2: there who had cut sandstone from a cliff face and

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Speaker 2: a quarry, who'd carved it into blocks, who dragged them

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Speaker 2: across the desert, who'd hefted them on their shoulders, who

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Speaker 2: were sat upon them, still warm beneath them, as sunset

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Speaker 2: cooled the air, and a breeze shook the reeds as

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Speaker 2: they floated in a flat bottom boat down the nile

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Speaker 2: where two princes had once drowned and become gods. And

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Speaker 2: there were men who stacked those blocks, who chiseled them

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Speaker 2: into columns and lintils and falcon faced gods, set them

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Speaker 2: in place just so sat and ate in the shade

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Speaker 2: of a wall they built with those blocks, and who

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Speaker 2: would think from time to time as their lives went on,

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Speaker 2: and they would see the temple, see it change colors

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Speaker 2: with each change of the lead, or shimmer in the

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Speaker 2: heat and the horizon, or see it half submerged by

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Speaker 2: the nile flooded again. They'd see this temple and think

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Speaker 2: and built that I was here, and tell their kids,

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Speaker 2: who'd say, my father built that he was here, maybe

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Speaker 2: their grandkids. Until eventually the Temple of Dender was just

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Speaker 2: landscape and landmark sandstone eroding at the next points in

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Speaker 2: the timeline. The story goes that travelers, explorers and soldiers

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Speaker 2: and wealthy dilettants discovered the Temple of Dender over and

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Speaker 2: over again, saw it in the distances. They came around

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Speaker 2: to bend in the river as their caravans crested a hill,

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Speaker 2: and they stopped for a spell, watered their horses or

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Speaker 2: their camels, rested for a bit in the shade of

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Speaker 2: its walls, and carve their names. You can see them there.

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Speaker 2: The first one is in an ancient script. Some tagger

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Speaker 2: scraped it in like two thousand years ago, but you

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Speaker 2: can still make it out. And then there's someone named

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Speaker 2: Dravetti in eighteen sixteen, and in El Pulidi in eighteen nineteen,

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Speaker 2: Leonardo Luigi Leandro. We don't know, but we can still

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Speaker 2: almost see him there mustachioed, sweating through wool and linen,

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Speaker 2: chipping his name in the soft stone of this temple,

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Speaker 2: that there was an antiquities dealer or thief, depending on

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Speaker 2: how you want to look at it, from Baltimore. His

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Speaker 2: name's there too. And there's a New Yorker, Lewis Braditch,

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Speaker 2: who came upon this minor temple on his way to

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Speaker 2: see better sights. It took a few moments out of

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Speaker 2: his grand tour one day in eighteen twenty one to

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Speaker 2: carve his name and say to history, I was here.

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Speaker 2: The story goes that the Nile flooded too high, over

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Speaker 2: and over again for millennia. That was the way of

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Speaker 2: the Nile. And there is a point on the timeline

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00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 2: in about nineteen fifty four when there were twenty three

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Speaker 2: million people in Egypt and the flooding was brutal, and

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Speaker 2: there was only one crop that year, and there was

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Speaker 2: a food shortage that threatened to become a famine but

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Speaker 2: didn't quite. And so the government decided to raise the

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Speaker 2: height of the Aswan Dam and make a lake that

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Speaker 2: could help irrigate enough land to ensure three crops a

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Speaker 2: year and food for those twenty three million, but that

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Speaker 2: lake would drown the Temple of Dender in many other

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Speaker 2: archaeological sites far more significant. Hundreds of tombs and towns

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Speaker 2: and forts in Abu symbol the great Temple of Ramses,

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Speaker 2: the second, the one with the four seated pharaohs carved

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Speaker 2: into the hillside. You know that one, I bet. The

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Speaker 2: Egyptian government went to the UN which was brand new

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Speaker 2: back then, and asked the nations of the world for help.

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Speaker 2: In fifty countries gave money to save it and save

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Speaker 2: as much of this history as they could. Aghanistan gave

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Speaker 2: two grand Togo, newly independent, gave eight hundred and fifteen

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Speaker 2: dollars in thirty cents as one of its first acts

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Speaker 2: in the international stage. President Kennedy went to Congress and

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Speaker 2: made an impassioned speech asking them to help preserve the

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Speaker 2: antiquities and to seize their own moment in history and

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Speaker 2: make their mark. And the United States donated twelve million dollars,

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00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 2: and that money paid for cranes and trucks and chisels

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00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: and contractors and archaeologists and day laborers to dismantle and

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Speaker 2: box and store as many tombs and temples as possible

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Speaker 2: like this one here before the waters rose and rose.

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Speaker 2: There is a point on the timeline mark November twenty second,

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three, when a young president was shot in

436
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 2: the back of a car and fell onto his young

437
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 2: wife beside him, and then was shot in the head

438
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: while it lay on her shoulder, and he died. And

439
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 2: then a couple of years later, after everything, after LBJ

440
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 2: one hand on a Bible in one in the air

441
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 2: on Air Force one with Jackie beside him in the

442
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 2: pink Channel, still bloodstand, after jack Ruby and Oswald, after

443
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 2: John juniors saluting, after all of it, the Egyptian government

444
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: offered the American government a temple as a thank you

445
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: for helping save so much from the flood. Other countries

446
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 2: would get stuff too, but the United States gave the

447
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 2: most money, so it would have first pick. And the

448
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 2: story goes that Jackie was asked to make the choice

449
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 2: because saving the temples and the like had been a

450
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: cause so dear to her late husband. That story is

451
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: not entirely accurate, but that's how the story goes. And

452
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 2: it goes on to say that she chose Dender. She

453
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 2: chose this temple because it was the most beautiful, and

454
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: jack would have loved it the most. And what she wanted,

455
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 2: what she wanted for this temple, what she wanted for

456
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 2: her husband, now two years dead, was to rebuild it

457
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: in Washington, d c amidst the foe Greco Roman temples

458
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 2: to Lincoln and Jeffrey, the fake Egyptian obelisk that is

459
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: somehow supposed to evoke Washington. She wanted to use this

460
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 2: real temple to Isis and Osiris, and to two princes

461
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 2: who'd drowned too young in the river and became gods,

462
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: as a memorial to the man she had once met

463
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: at a dinner party at a mutual friends place, and

464
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 2: then fallen in love with and set out to spend

465
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: the rest of her life with. And then the story

466
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: goes that the Metropolitan Museum of Art had hired a

467
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 2: new director. His name was Thomas Hoving. He was thirty six,

468
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: which was remarkably young for a job like that in

469
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: a place like this, especially that, but it was nineteen

470
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: sixty seven, you can find it on the timeline there,

471
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 2: and he was charged in part with harnessing the spirit

472
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: of that age and making them met a little less

473
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: stodgy within reason, certainly less sleepy people who have been

474
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: around the museum for a long time, will tell you

475
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: stories about coming here to look at art on summer

476
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: hote afternoons when school was out, when tourists were in

477
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: town and have whole wings to themselves. And Thomas Hoving

478
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 2: wanted to change that. He wanted crowds now. At the

479
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: same time, President Johnson was deciding what to do with

480
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: this gift from Egypt. He had already ruled out Jackie's

481
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 2: idea for a memorial. He wanted no part in deifying

482
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: his predecessor. Instead, he wanted a kind of contest. He

483
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 2: had museums and cities tell him why they thought they

484
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: were the best place in America for an Egyptian temple,

485
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: not much of one, admittedly didn't come with any mummies

486
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: or anything. Wasn't even all that old. But there were

487
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 2: proposals from all over. The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston,

488
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: the Smithsonian, Memphis, Tennessee, and Cairo, Illinois pitched their respective

489
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: downtowns because they were named after cities in Egypt and

490
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: would not be cool. And now you listening to this

491
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: story about a temple at the met while maybe looking

492
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: at that same temple at the Met, have a pretty

493
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: good hunch how all this turns out. But the story

494
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: here is that Hoving made a choice. He too knew

495
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: this wasn't much of a temple. There were already dozens

496
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 2: of objects in the Museum's Egyptian art department far more important.

497
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 2: He knew that it would cost a fortune to bring

498
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: it here. He knew it had questionable esthetic and historic value.

499
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 2: But he also knew that you and I wouldn't really care,

500
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: and he wanted to leave his mark on the history

501
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: of the med You wanted to say I was here.

502
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 2: There's a black stripe that stretches along a section of

503
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: the timeline of the history of the Temple of Dender.

504
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: It delineates the period of protracted competition and debate over

505
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: who would get to have it. But that section is

506
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: super boring, so we'll skip over it. But there's one

507
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: part of that story worth telling, and we'll mark it

508
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: with its own little dot. When Thomas Hoving ran into

509
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: some particularly thorny obstacle in the process, he called Jackie Kennedy,

510
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 2: who was just about to get remarried, and Hoving asked

511
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: her if she could help, if she could put in

512
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: a word with President Johnson on behalf of the met,

513
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: she said, and Hoving said he wrote it downward for word.

514
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: I want it to be built in the center of

515
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: Washington as a memorial to Jack. I don't care about

516
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: the MET. I don't care about New York, she said.

517
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: I don't care if the temple crumbles into sand. The

518
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: story goes that the Temple of Dender sat in pieces

519
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: on an island in the middle of the Nile for

520
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: almost twenty years. Then it was packed up into six

521
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty one crates, sent up the river tamed

522
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: by the dam by then, and loaded onto a Norwegian

523
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: freighter and borne across waves to New York. That was

524
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight. It sat around for nearly a decade.

525
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: They built a plastic dome outside the museum where conservatives

526
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: could work on it and keep it out of the elements.

527
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: They were mostly waiting for a new wing to be

528
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: built in a room here with a high ceiling in

529
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: a wall of glass looking out onto the park, specifically

530
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 2: to house the Temple of Dender, And then curators and

531
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: teamsters and workmen brought it inside and put it back together.

532
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: They are still around, a lot of them still saying

533
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: surely to themselves to their kids, to the grandkids, now

534
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: that they built this, that they were here. And there's

535
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,479
Speaker 2: another point on the timeline, another part of the story.

536
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: The Times wrote it up. One day they were rebuilding

537
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: the temple, scaffolding, hard hats, ancient dust catching the light

538
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: through the windows, and work just stopped because Jackie Onassis

539
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: and her daughter Caroline, who was just about to turn eighteen,

540
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: came into the room. Jackie lived a block away. It

541
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: was nineteen seventy five. It had been twelve years since

542
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: her husband had been shot in the head while it

543
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: lay on her shoulder. The Times didn't record what she

544
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: said or know what she felt, of course, just that

545
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: she looked around a while and signed autographs to the workers.

546
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: And the timeline stretches on with a point marking the

547
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: opening reception in nineteen seventy eight. Champagne flutes wide lapels.

548
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: There's a point placed at Hoving's death in two thousand

549
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: and nine. Dender is mentioned right near the top of

550
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: his obituary. There are new placards in the wall opposite

551
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: the park. The old ones had yelled with age, we'll

552
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: mark a point for their arrival. The curators are very

553
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: proud of them. They are filled with all sorts of

554
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: details that will help the curious visitor place this temple

555
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: in its proper historical context to understand what distinguishes it

556
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: built as it was in the so called Roman period

557
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: thirty b c. To six forty eight D from temples

558
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: of earlier epics. Those epics traditionally be being distinguished by

559
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: various things. There's a point for the teachers telling school

560
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: groups the story explaining how this minor temple comes from

561
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 2: the tail end of what we think of as ancient Egypt,

562
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: the golden sarcophagus is and mummies and stuff, the time

563
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: when the old gods were on their way out, and

564
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: explain that we are closer in time to its construction

565
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: right now by almost five hundred years than the construction

566
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: of the Pyramids and the Sphinx were to the men

567
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: who built this temple and sat in its shade. But

568
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: you can just tell that. The story when the kids

569
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: get home will be, mom, I saw the place where

570
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: they put the mummies, and good for them. Mark a

571
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: point for the night when one of those kids sleeps

572
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: in dreams of Dender. Mark a point for the selfie

573
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: taken at arm's length. The tourists saying I was here.

574
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: Another for the security guard saying no flash please, for

575
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: the ggillanth time that day. One for the toddler eyeing

576
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 2: the pool with the papyrus, with his parents warning him

577
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: away lest he be drowned and deified. Mark a point

578
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: for each change in the light and how they change,

579
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: how the temple looks, and mark a point for you

580
00:31:20,840 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: here now. This episode is written and produced and stuffed

581
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: by me Nate Demeyo of The Memory Palace podcast, and

582
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: executive produced by Lemore Tomer, general Manager of Live Arts

583
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: at the met with research assistants from Andrea Milln and

584
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: engineering assistance from Elica Dudley. My residency is made possible

585
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: by the Metropolitan Museum of Arts chester Dale Fund. The

586
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: Memory Palace is a proud member of Radiotopia, a network

587
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: from PRX which receives support from the Knight Foundation and

588
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: from its generous listeners. Learn more about The Memory Palace

589
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: at the Memory Palace dot org and subscribe on iTunes,

590
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

591
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: So now that everyone has heard the Temple of Dender,

592
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: something I found very interesting about this episode of your

593
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: show is the fact that it was at it was

594
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: done as part of your residency at the MET and

595
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: I remember when that residency happened. I thought it was

596
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: such a cool opportunity to combine museum with an audio

597
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: production and to put all of these things together. And

598
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: now this has moved into a new medium of a book,

599
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: and it gave you the opportunity to follow up the

600
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: episode with another chapter basically of the book that is

601
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: parts excised from that story. Do you want to talk

602
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: about that a little bit, how that evolved.

603
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, you know, I absolutely love being the artis

604
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: and residence of the Metropal Museum of Art. And it's

605
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: still like it's it's still the off chance that I

606
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: get to go these days is a West Coaster. Boys,

607
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: it's still really cool to see a little plaque that

608
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: says the name of a thing that says the name

609
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 2: of one of the episodes that I produced, and then

610
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: my name like then like American born nineteen seventy four,

611
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: as though it's just like any other artwork, and that

612
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: it met It's incredible, And I really, you know, in

613
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: doing these stories about like the stuff that moves you,

614
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: there's just like nothing sort of more kind of magical

615
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: than some of these incredible spaces that they've created in

616
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: the Met, and so you know, to create a story

617
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: about you know, to be listened to ideally in one

618
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: of those spaces, but also that is something that's so

619
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: iconic to the museum. And then to kind of like

620
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: draw out the sort of like wonder in the mundanity

621
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 2: of that story is really where the Memory Palace lives.

622
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: Like the notion that this can be this run of

623
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: the mill, you know, minor temple, but that has been

624
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: imbued with such meaning over the years is a thing

625
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: that just I find enduringly fascinating. And when I was

626
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 2: walking around the Met looking for stuff to do stories

627
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: about and talking to the curators about it, and there's

628
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: no there's nothing more fun in the world than talking

629
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: to an expert about the thing that they love and

630
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: so revealed. To get to do that was such a thrill,

631
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, cool, So I'm going to

632
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 2: do this story about this American painting, and I'm going

633
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: to do this story about these objects, and that I'm

634
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: going to do a story about the Temple of Dender

635
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: and I just wanted to be really straightforward. I want

636
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 2: to call it the Temple of Dender, and I was told, yeah,

637
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: you can't do that the way a minute I thought

638
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: I was like the Arts of Residence. I thought that, like,

639
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: you know, I had free rein to do whatever I want, Like, yeah,

640
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 2: of course, if you're in too, do whatever you want,

641
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: that's fine. But you can't actually just call a thing

642
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: the Temple of Dender, because it turns out, as many

643
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: people know at this point, that that and I did

644
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 2: not that that the Temple of Dender in every mention,

645
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: in every uh you know, in every publication that the

646
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 2: MET does in this and this would fall under that category,

647
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: had to buy buy a contractual agreement, uh say that

648
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 2: it was the Temple of Dender in the Sackler wing,

649
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: of the Sackler Gallery, of the Sackler whatever, sponsored by

650
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 2: the Sackler family, you know who made their money, uh,

651
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 2: you know, first in medical antiseptics, but then selling drugs

652
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 2: directly to using doctors to sell drugs directly to patients.

653
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 2: And they made so much of their fortune. I'm selling

654
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: oxygon to people. Not only was this a key component

655
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: to the history of the Temple of Dender that I

656
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 2: could never quite find a way to tell even you know,

657
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 2: with the residency of the Met there, which is something about, uh,

658
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: the story began to overwhelm it in which didn't feel

659
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: it just didn't feel right to the kind of magic

660
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 2: of that place and the magic frankly of what the

661
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 2: Met has built there. And so I was like, oh,

662
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 2: I feel like this, this now needs to be a

663
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: thing that like becomes part of the story because it's

664
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: very clear, and it kept sort of trying to shoehorn

665
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: it into the story and it just everything kept falling apart,

666
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 2: and I realized that it needed its own addendum, It

667
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 2: needed its own sort of moment and the kind of

668
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: like shifting sun of the gallery of the Met. And

669
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: it was one of these kind of cool opportunities that

670
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: the book provided, like that to be able to kind

671
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: of return to that story, to tell how the Sacklers

672
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 2: became involved, and to tell ultimately, you know, how activists

673
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: led by Nandgoles and the artists were able to you know,

674
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 2: change the history of that, to put their own mark

675
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: on that room and put their own mark in, you know,

676
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: their own place in the timeline. It felt like kind

677
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: of a real gift to the book. And also just

678
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: to be able to frankly restore the very simple title

679
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: this is always supposed to be the temple vendor, and

680
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 2: and it now candy again.

681
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: Has there been any other thing or person or whatever

682
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: that you've covered on your show that you have later

683
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: wanted to have some kind of a dendum to clarify

684
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: anything about it at any nuance anything like that, You.

685
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: Know, not too often, because the truth of the matter

686
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 2: is like like for a Memory Palace story to feel finished,

687
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 2: then I kind of need to figure out what it

688
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: means to me, Like it really comes down to that,

689
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: Like that one, you know, finds a story about, you know,

690
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: as we both do, as we trawl or we just

691
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: stumble upon exciting things, and one finds a story about

692
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: Ruth Harkness and Interpanda. And on the one end, it's

693
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: a very it's a very easy story to make cool

694
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: because it's a very cool story. There are like lots

695
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: of interesting facts and exciting incident. But the question always,

696
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: you know, I have this, I have a list. It

697
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: is dozens and dozens and dozens of potential topics long.

698
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: I'm sure you guys have the same kind of file.

699
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: And I look at it sometimes and I'm like, how

700
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 2: come there's absolutely nothing I want to tell a story.

701
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: About I have the exact same experience.

702
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: Like, and also you're just like, why did I ever

703
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: care about that thing? Then, over time, sometimes like something

704
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: frankly often like occurs in your life and you'll say like, oh,

705
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,280
Speaker 2: I realize that this is a story about having aging parents,

706
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: or oh, I realize that this is a story about

707
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 2: an ambition of a certain type of thing that I'm

708
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 2: currently now feeling this is about. And so I wait

709
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: for that feeling. I wait for, like, this is the

710
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 2: thing I want to say about the world to pair

711
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 2: up with one of those stories. And so suddenly, like

712
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 2: Ruth Harkness, the story you know, comes a little bit

713
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: about like these times in your life when you let

714
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: yourself like go on an adventure, and that can be

715
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: a true adventure like Ruth goes on, or it can

716
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: be just like, oh, I pursued this thing that took

717
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: me beyond what I thought it might be capable of,

718
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: and that you go and do that thing and it

719
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: kind of fills your life in a certain way and

720
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: and everything feels right. And I was very moved by

721
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: the fact that she, you know, as her life falls apart,

722
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 2: as frankly often it happens in these stories that you know,

723
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: when one thing about history is get the whole span

724
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: of the life. And I am very interested in what

725
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: happens to people after they do the thing we know

726
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: them for, and how they reckon with it and how

727
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: it lives with them. Ruth's story is one of these

728
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: things where you know, you think back to it and

729
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 2: I'm so interested in, like, oh, like things felt right

730
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 2: for her for a while and then they don't. And

731
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: there's something I find a lot of sort of particular

732
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 2: sadness it was worth exploring in there. But that said,

733
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,479
Speaker 2: so when the memory Palace feels done, it feels done,

734
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 2: like it feels like, oh, I've said the thing I

735
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: need to say, and there might be like extra stuff,

736
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: but I kind of wish I could get in there,

737
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: and there might. But that usually means so let's wait

738
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: for another time to like tell that other aspect, let's

739
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: wait for a different meaning as opposed to like, let's

740
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: just get some more information in there. Does that make sense?

741
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 2: It does?

742
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: It definitely does. And I think that's sort of one

743
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: of the things that's reflective of differences between the way

744
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: your show works and the way our show works, because

745
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: ours is often a very this happened, and then this happened,

746
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 1: and then this happened. Chronological story, and so occasionally there

747
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: will be a discovery about one of the things that

748
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: we thought happened that didn't really happen, or you know,

749
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: a realization somebody will find, you know, some previously unknown

750
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,959
Speaker 1: document that reveals new insight.

751
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: That did happen in this book now that I think

752
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 2: about it, you know, But it was not one of

753
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: those things where I'm like, oh great, here's an opportunity

754
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: to revisit this story or add to it. It was like, oh, shoot,

755
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 2: I have to reckon with this. And that is the

756
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: story of Hercules was an enslaved you know, a person

757
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: enslaved by George Washington. When I did that story originally,

758
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: like too that fifteen or something like that, the end

759
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: of the story hinged upon the wonder and strangeness and

760
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: kind of magic of the notion that after his escape,

761
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: like people lose track of him, and that you know,

762
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 2: in that he can kind of only live on in

763
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: our imagination on some level, this real person who has

764
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 2: become this thing. And if that's the case, then like

765
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: let's make sure that we hold him in a similar

766
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 2: way in our imaginations that we hold George Washington and

767
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 2: let's hang his you know, his memories and sort of like,

768
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: you know, the crime of the ownership of this man

769
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: on George Washington, and let's like let's keep that going

770
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: and like, let's we have the ability to kind of

771
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: control what we take from the story, and this is

772
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 2: what I'd like you to take. And it turns out

773
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 2: that six months after I released that episode, they figure

774
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: out where he went. And I did not know that,

775
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: Like I just I missed the news because it was

776
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 2: not at proper front page news. And during the fact

777
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 2: checking process, someone's someone's like, excuse me, it's like oh,

778
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: And so so there was this real question about like, oh,

779
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 2: this thing needs an entirely different ending, and this is

780
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: a story I like, and there's a real value in this,

781
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 2: and there's value within the kind of like construct of

782
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: this book to have this type of story in there.

783
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: At this particular moment, I'm like, oh, but then one

784
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: has to find not just a different ending, you know,

785
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 2: it's not it's not it's not a language question, it's

786
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 2: a meaning question. How does this change the meaning? And yeah,

787
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: and it was a it was a surprise challenge, but

788
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: one that again. So it was kind of lovely to

789
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: immerse myself again sort of in that moment and kind

790
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: of see like, oh, have I did what I got

791
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: out of it? Then not only does it hold up

792
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 2: under these new facts, but does it also hold up,

793
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: you know, several years later as I have changed. Yeah,

794
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: it was exciting to revisit it.

795
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: So is there anything that you want to make sure

796
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: that people really know about this book or your podcast,

797
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: what you're working on, any of that.

798
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: I like to think of what I do in terms

799
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 2: of like writing these short stories that every two weeks

800
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: I'll be the podcast and then you know, more often.

801
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: When I was working on this book, I've discovered that

802
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 2: I really have this like it's almost it's almost become

803
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: like a yoga practice, where like it just does me

804
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: good to think about the past. It does me good

805
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: to think about the way that lives go, and it

806
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: does me good to remember that we're all going to

807
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: die someday and then our time is short. And I've

808
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: just find such value in sort of like writing these things,

809
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 2: and I really do think about like the value of

810
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,479
Speaker 2: the stories themselves, and in what I kind of want

811
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: someone to get out of and the truth is like

812
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: I kind of wanted people to get what I put

813
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 2: into it. I don't mean that like the sweat. I

814
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: just mean that, like I like to think of these

815
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: stories as having the ability, when they work well, to

816
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 2: kind of like inject like a little shot of feeling

817
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 2: into one's life. Like we are all and I certainly

818
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: am just like wrapped up in the kind of like

819
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: in the just whirr and sputter of the every day.

820
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: And I want each of these stories to kind of

821
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 2: just have the ability to kind of like shift your

822
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 2: day a little bit, if that makes any sense. Yeah,

823
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 2: And again, I want this to be the like I

824
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: want the podcast to kind of be like the thing

825
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 2: that can like to bring like sort of like genuine

826
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: wonder in like the strangeness of the world into like

827
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 2: the span of a dog walk. And I want, you know,

828
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: this book to be this thing that like sits on

829
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: your shelf or you have in your pocket book or

830
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 2: you have you know, in your carry on bag that

831
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 2: like you know that at each turn you're going to start,

832
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: you don't know where you're going to go, but that

833
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: you'll be like that things will be a little different

834
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: on the other end of the story, I.

835
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: Love all of that. Having read this, this is really

836
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: it's It's such a lovely book, and I think it's

837
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: the exactly the kind of book that I would if

838
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: I had not just read the entire thing preparing to

839
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: talk to you about it. Definitely the kind of book

840
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: that I would have nearby for when I had a

841
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: moment and needed a moment to sort of reset my

842
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: brain and my perspective. Also, every time I hear the

843
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: words this is the Memory Palace, I'm Nate Demeyo, I

844
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: feel comforted, even though I know there is a chance

845
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: that what I'm about to hear is going to be heartbreaking.

846
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: So take that as you will. Listeners, I said earlier,

847
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: you have been on our show once before. If folks

848
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: are listening right now and are thinking, I want to

849
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 1: hear this other episode where they talked to Nate Demeyo,

850
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: Holly and I both interviewed you on June tenth of

851
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. That's when that came out, so long ago.

852
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: And your book is being published by Random House on

853
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: November nineteenth of this year, which is twenty twenty four, right,

854
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: that's correct, So if you haven't heard The Memory Palace before,

855
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: you can find the Memory Palace on anywhere you get

856
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 1: your podcasts, same with us. I'm with Stuff you miss

857
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: in History Class anywhere you get your podcasts. Thank you,

858
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you so much, Nate for talking to

859
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: me today. I hope everyone has enjoyed listening to you

860
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: and listening to your show today.

861
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

862
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio.

863
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

864
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.