1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:05,359 Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jenna Kramer and I've Heart Radio podcast. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 2: Okay, Babe, I've actually been looking forward to this one 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 2: because of our guest that's coming in as actually the 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 2: real life Margot Robbie and my favorite movie, which is 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: The Wife, the Wife of Wall Street. 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 3: The Wolf of wall Street. 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: Well she was the Wife of Wall Street. 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 2: Yes, she's the wife of the real life wife of 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: Jordan Belfort. So it's interesting because as said, it's my 10 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: favorite movie, not because of all the rug history behavior 11 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 2: in it, but actually because of the humor and the 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: you know. 13 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 3: Action action side of it. It's kind of got a 14 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 3: bit of everything. 15 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: That's got a love story, it's got ridiculously funny humor, 16 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: it's got action in there. I'm looking forward to the 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: the interview to see what just to see how accurate 18 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: it was, because some of the movie is absolutely hilarious, 19 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: like the scene with these He's Lamborghini where he's trying 20 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: to get back. 21 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: And he's stumbling out from the accident. 22 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 23 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: Well, her book is called Run Like is called Run 24 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: Like Hell, A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, escaping, and Healing 25 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: from trauma bonds. Do you have any have you had 26 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: trauma bonds? Before. 27 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 2: I'm not really one hundred percent clear on what a 28 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 2: trauma bond is, so I don't think so. 29 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 3: No, maybe I haven't. I've not recognized it. 30 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 2: I don't know exactly what it is, so I can't 31 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: tell you I've been in a relationship where I've had 32 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 2: a a trauma bond. I've been in relationships that I 33 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: shouldn't have been in. 34 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's the entire population on the earth. 35 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: I know have all been in relationships that they shouldn't 36 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: be in, you know, but. 37 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: The reasons I would go back to it. 38 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's a trauma bond or whether 39 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: it's a a fear of being alone, or whether it 40 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: was a comfort thing. I'm not sure what the correlation 41 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: is between between trauma bond and being and being alone. 42 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 3: I guess I can't really I can't really explain. 43 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: Or maybe it's something to bring to the therapist what. 44 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 3: Trauma bond is. Obviously you have been a sounds of it, 45 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 3: and you know what a trauma bond. 46 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, But again, I think I think we all have it. Well, 47 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think most people have had relationships that 48 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: are not the healthiest of relationships and they kind of 49 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: go in a circle. Unless people just have the most 50 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: incredible boundaries and know their worth from from the very get, 51 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: then maybe they don't. But I would say I would 52 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: most people have had a trauma bond in their life 53 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: at some point. 54 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: I think I had the trauma bond with a phase 55 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: of my life, but it was just not yeah, that's 56 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 2: part of it, but it was just like constant. There 57 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: was a phase where it was just constant trauma. So 58 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: they came a point where that's what all I become 59 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: used to, not always in a relationship is but just okay, 60 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 2: deal with this next thing, okay, and now add something else, 61 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: Now add something else. It was almost like a building 62 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: a skyscaper of trauma. That phase was always had trauma, 63 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: So it wasn't a bond with trauma. It was more 64 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: constantly having to deal with it. Yeah, that was my 65 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 2: bond with It was always there that way. 66 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: It was just you in a bond. It was just 67 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: another person. 68 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: It was just me and trauma for a phase. Well 69 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: we became best mates. 70 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: Isn't that nice to think though, that you're not alone 71 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: in that, Like everyone in their lifetime has experience art 72 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: in trauma. And even though we don't that's not like 73 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: a very a comforting thing to want other people to 74 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: experience that, but that you're not alone in it. We've 75 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: all had really hard times and days. 76 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, And obviously there's different levels in those different phases 77 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: in life and those different levels of trauma. Sure like you, 78 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: even in your best phase of life, you'll you have trauma. 79 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: It just not might it might not be as piercing 80 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: or as strong as a trauma that you went through 81 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: in the previous phase of your life where it was 82 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: a really negative. 83 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: Do you think you can measure pain? 84 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 3: I think so. 85 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 2: I think your heart will tell you how intense that 86 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: that pain is. And pretty much if I was to 87 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: say you, okay, measure the pain when this happened at 88 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 2: this phase in your life, you're you would be able 89 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: to give it a grading one out of ten. 90 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: No, I mean like someone else like to measure someone's 91 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: Like someone might be going through something that's more traumatic, 92 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: but you might be going through something too, And I 93 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: don't think you can. It might be it might on 94 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: paper look more traumatic, but I don't think you can. 95 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: I think I don't think you should compare and measure 96 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: people's pain or I think pain is just pain and 97 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: it hurts regardless of pain. 98 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I think 99 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: pain is pain, but. 100 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: I think there's things the asterisk of like, of course, 101 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: if it's like losing a child, like I think that's 102 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: a you can't compare apples to apples and things like that, 103 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: but you can't. 104 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: But it's a really good point because something that is 105 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 2: really painful at first that can become normal. Almost the 106 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 2: pain becomes dull down, doesn't it, because the normality of 107 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: that thing, which is clearly not normal, becomes your normal 108 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: for the pain almost gets masked because of it, and 109 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 2: you don't feel hurt as much because you're used to 110 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: feeling it. Going back to that point in my life, 111 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: I was used to dealing with hassle and stress and 112 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: trauma at the point where I'm like, well, these little 113 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: stress in life are not stresses because look what I've 114 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 2: had to deal. 115 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: With, right, I just want I just don't want people 116 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: to ever feel like, oh I can't feel sad or 117 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: pain for this because it's not as bad as this. 118 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: It's like like, for example, when I was in an 119 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: abusive relationship, I was like, well he just like I 120 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: just have a black eye, Like when I would go 121 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: into meetings with other women, like they would have stab wounds, 122 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: and so I remember going out with my therapists and 123 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: being like, Amy, how can I complain that like he 124 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: gave me a black eye or you know, he bruised 125 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: ribs when like that woman got stabbed like ten times. 126 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: And she's like, Janney, you can't compare a pain like 127 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: She's like, a pain is pain, and to measure that, 128 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: like just because it wasn't as bad, it's still a 129 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: painful thing that happened. So I think, even though you 130 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: know you're saying too, it's like, no matter what you 131 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: go through, you yes, five years ago it was maybe 132 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: not as as bad and you got to go through it, 133 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: but it's still a painful experience. It might not have 134 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: been as painful as someone else's, but I don't think 135 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: you can measure that. 136 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's unfortunately the evil. And this is when 137 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: things are going good as well, you will all compare 138 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: it to someone else. When things are going good, you'll 139 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: be okay, they're going good, but not as good as 140 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: that person or not as good as this. 141 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: And it's the same thing. 142 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: When you experience pain, you rationalize it because well, I'm 143 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 2: not going through as much pain as this person. 144 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: Right, It's like when you go to therapy and complain. 145 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm like, why am I sitting at complaining? I'm healthy, 146 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: I don't have cancer. I don't have this. And she's like, 147 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: it's still what you're dealing with, even though yes. 148 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: It's still something that interrupts your life and interrupts the 149 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: balance of your life for you to move forward, and 150 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: anything that interrupts the balance of your life that allows 151 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: you to keep moving forward and keep improving, and then it's. 152 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: Important to deal with it, and you know it interrupts 153 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: your life. Trauma bonds. So let's take a break and 154 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: then get Nadine on and talk about her book Run 155 00:07:51,400 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: Like Hell and How to Break Free from Trauma Bonds. Hill. Hello, 156 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: how are you good? Well, I'm Jana. This is my 157 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: husband Alan. 158 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 3: Hello. Nice to meet you. 159 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 4: Nice to meet you. 160 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: We so appreciate you coming on the show. So when 161 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: you knew Margot Robbie was playing you were you like, 162 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: oh my. 163 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 4: Goodness, Well you have to remember she wasn't famous yet. 164 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: Oh well, I guess you're right. I knew her from 165 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: these she had done a few things, but that's definitely 166 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: what catapulted her into into stardom for sure. So I 167 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: didn't really know were you nervous about? Like, how did 168 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: you hear that they were making this film? 169 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 4: Well, so my ex husband had written the book The 170 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 4: Wolf of Wall Sure, yeah, right, And so then he 171 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 4: said to me, you know, we're going to make it 172 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 4: into a movie. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding. 173 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 4: I thought that I had escaped you. I moved from 174 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 4: New York to California, thought this was all behind me, 175 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 4: and so I went to like tons of therapy. I 176 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 4: cried about it, you know, and then I surrendered and 177 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 4: I said, Nay, this is bigger than you. 178 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: So I guess that leads me then into what you're 179 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: doing in your book. How for those listening, Because I 180 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: know what a trauma bond is, just because I've been 181 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: in therapy since forever. But what is your definition of 182 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: a trauma bond? 183 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 4: So, a trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between 184 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 4: two emotionally attached people. But what makes it so harmful 185 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 4: is that one of the partners wants power and control 186 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 4: over the other partner, and so there has to be 187 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 4: two things for it to be a trauma bond. It 188 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 4: has to be a power and balance where one person 189 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 4: has the power and abuses it. And then the second 190 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 4: thing is something called intimate and reinfor forcement, where seventy 191 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 4: percent of the time they're cruel and controlling, but that 192 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 4: thirty percent of the time they're kind, helpful and generous. 193 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 4: So it's that actual mixed bag of treatment that creates 194 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 4: the band in the trauma band. 195 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: Interesting. 196 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Field Transparency willfe Wall Street is my favorite 197 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: movie of all time, of all time, And listen, this 198 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: is not to celebrate or under the underestimate your challenges 199 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: within the movie. 200 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 3: And it's not. 201 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: It's not for the movie's very low moral compass in 202 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 2: most of the cast. It's the humor within the movie, 203 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: which I absolutely love. Now, like some of my biggest 204 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: laughs are are from that movie. But how so, I 205 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: guess my question is, with it being one of my 206 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 2: favorite movies, how close to life was it actually portrayed? 207 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 4: I would say ninety percent? Really, Oh yeah, it was 208 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 4: that crazy. I had a first sticker on my car 209 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 4: that said I have my angels on the run because 210 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 4: after the boat sang, the plane crashed, it was just 211 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 4: total utter chaos. All the time, because all the drugs 212 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 4: and all the money, it was just nuts. 213 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: And the Lamborghini scene was that truthfully, when he comes 214 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 2: out of the country club. 215 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 4: One hundred percent, which is my favorite. 216 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 5: Scene, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, because he you know, I 217 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 5: didn't know what had happened, that he had crashed his car, 218 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 5: but he ran out to the country club to make 219 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 5: a phone call because our phones were probably tapped, right, 220 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 5: And then he comes in and he's stumbling, but I 221 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 5: said to him, like, just go upstairs. 222 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 4: And then like ten minutes later, the police ring the 223 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 4: doorbell and they say, oh, you know your husband's been 224 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 4: in action. I said, no, he's I sleeping upstairs. They said, 225 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 4: you want to come outside and see the car. I'm like, 226 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 4: how the hell did somebody lit and crashed a car 227 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 4: like that? 228 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: Colleels, So how did you break that trauma bond from 229 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 1: your ex husband? 230 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 4: So, you know, as the movie depicts, there was one 231 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 4: time in our relationship where he got violent with me 232 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 4: when I gave fund without drugs. It's a little different 233 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 4: than it is in the movie. And when I talked 234 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 4: to him about all that, and I was like, you know, 235 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 4: it was so hard because he did gets sober. He 236 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 4: was like, it wasn't that bad, and his lack of 237 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 4: remorse really was like the knife in my heart. And 238 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 4: then he got arrested, so I was like, oh, there's 239 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 4: my ticket, there's my window. Because he had to wear 240 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 4: an ankle bracelet, so I knew I was safe. I 241 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 4: knew he couldn't say I was a drug addict or 242 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 4: take my kids or whatever because he was now the 243 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 4: government's problem. For me, I think it was easier in 244 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 4: a way than for most women. 245 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: But emotionally though, that trauma bond holds on. I mean, 246 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: I know, at least my ex husband like that's it 247 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: took a long time to release that trauma within that relationship. 248 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: So how how did you step through that? And what 249 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: are some of the tips in your book that you 250 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: help other people get to the other side. 251 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I actually went away to a clinic for 252 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 4: a week. 253 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 1: Did you go to Hoffmann or. 254 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 4: I mean to something called the Caren Foundation and the 255 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 4: program they're called Breakthrough. Okay, I went there. But what 256 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 4: I say to the women I work with is that 257 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 4: when you're in a trauma bond, you're so obsessed with 258 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: the other partner, they have to turn the mirror back 259 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 4: on them and start to get really curious about themselves. 260 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 4: What are their attachment patterns, what are their personality traits, 261 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 4: what do they need? 262 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: Like? 263 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 4: Who are they? Because you lose yourself in a trauma bond, 264 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 4: So we start with that. I give everybody three assessments 265 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 4: when they come to me, and I start with a 266 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 4: deep excavation of who were they? And then I really 267 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 4: work with them on the cognitive dissonance, which is the 268 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 4: confusion of is he good? Is he bad? Am I crazy? 269 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 4: Is he crazy? It's a relationship good or bad? Right? 270 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 3: Interesting? 271 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: I see you talk about something cold and just if 272 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: you can elaborate on it, that'd be great. And it's 273 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 2: called the Carpman triangle. Yes, do you know what that means? 274 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: I've learned about in therapy, but yeah, it's yeah, try, 275 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: I'll let you explain it. 276 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, triangle. And this is another reason why tromo bone 277 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 4: is so confusing, because the pathological partner initially can be 278 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 4: the rescuer. Then they're the perpetrator, usually of abused, but 279 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 4: then when you confront them about any abuse or lies 280 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 4: or betrayal, they become the victim. 281 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: And then it just keeps circling and circling in circle. 282 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: It's also like the if you've seen the power and 283 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: Control wheel two, it's the abuser. It's it's like that. 284 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: It's that circle too. It it goes, it keeps going 285 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: and going, and it's just in every action, it just keeps, 286 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: whether it's the triangle or the circle of abuse. 287 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, mm hmmmm hmmm. So that's that's what pauses the 288 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 4: cognitive disson that and the intermittent behavior. 289 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: Well, because you start to question your own sanity. You're like, 290 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: wait a minute, am I the because now like you 291 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: hurt me? Wait what like? And how is this now? 292 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: And how are you upset about this when you just 293 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: hurt me? 294 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 4: Like? 295 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: And that's the part where it's just the crazy making, 296 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: the gas lighting, the not knowing your reality. 297 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: Okay, So if you're involved in something like that for 298 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: so long, and I know you're there as well with 299 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 2: how do you not take the negativity and the treatment 300 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: and abuse from that relationship into another one? 301 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 3: Watch the system in place to deal with that. 302 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 4: That's really an excellent question. And so one of the 303 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 4: ways that I work with my women is that I 304 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 4: help them make meaning out of their suffering, because we're 305 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 4: meaning making individuals as humans. And if you just think, oh, 306 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 4: I just went through this because like life wanted to 307 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 4: torture me. But any time we've gone through a very 308 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 4: difficult experience or traumatic experience, it really is a time 309 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,359 Speaker 4: for us to go inward and learn and learn about ourselves. 310 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 4: So there's difference between being victimized and having a victim mindset. 311 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 4: And so I try to get them out of that 312 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 4: mindset and be like, Okay, yes, this happens. What can 313 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 4: we learn from it, what can we do about it? 314 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 4: What can we do so it never happens again. 315 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: It's so much easier said than done. 316 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 4: The yeah, And I'm not, you know, the type of 317 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 4: therapist I am. You know, when somebody's gone through a 318 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 4: relational trauma like this, I'm not just like, well, how 319 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 4: do you feel? You know, we're in the emotional emotional 320 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 4: emergency room and we're doing emotional triage work. So they 321 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 4: can text me, they can email me, and we're really 322 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 4: in it together. I go to court, I'm talking to 323 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 4: their lawyers, so it's a real involved therapy. 324 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: And how much of this, well, I guess when you 325 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: were married to Jordan, how much of that's of stuff 326 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: did you know? Did you know anything like that's a 327 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: time in order to have coping mechanisms and things. 328 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 4: No, you have to remember twenty five years ago and 329 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 4: nobody was talking about narcissism and trauma bonds. Not so 330 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 4: when I met him, because I was twenty three when 331 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 4: I married him, Like six weeks after I met him, 332 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 4: I put myself in therapy because I said, there's no 333 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 4: way I can handle this guy. I can't handle the 334 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 4: lifestyle I grew up or in Brooklyn. I can't handle 335 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 4: the guy. And so that's why I became a therapist, 336 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 4: because I believe that therapy saved me. 337 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: Because because you guys share two kids together, So I 338 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: think that's the piece where I struggle with because for me, 339 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, especially having two kids with an ex, you 340 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: have to still communicate with them. So there's a piece 341 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: of that trauma that is still like yes, I've worked 342 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: through it, but I mean it recently, just had a 343 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: big explosion with him, because it's like there are still 344 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: things that are really hard, and then when you have 345 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: to still deal with it person, it's really hard to manage. 346 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: And you know, luckily I've got you know, my husband 347 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: to talk to and my therapist and my friends and 348 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: stuff to have counsel around it all. But that's the 349 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: piece that I think I struggle with because it's like, 350 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: it's easy to have a clean break from someone you 351 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: don't have kids with, But what have you found to 352 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: be the most helpful tools when you do feel that 353 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: yourself getting heated and flared up again with all the 354 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: stuff that you went through with him, and still having 355 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: to have communication and contact with him. 356 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know therapists are people, too, right, So 357 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 4: I mean I've gone to therapy with him, like with 358 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 4: my sign and screamed at him in therapy. Okay, so 359 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 4: I've had my moments where I've just lost it, but 360 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 4: nothing get solved in an escalation. So what I luckily 361 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 4: for Jordan and I we actually really always got along afterwards, 362 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 4: by some miracle. I don't know why or how, but 363 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 4: we just did. We both chose the kids. And I 364 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 4: think the biggest piece of advice I can give to 365 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 4: anybody is don't engage, don't defend, don't explain. You couldn't 366 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 4: change this person. You couldn't collabor you know, you couldn't. 367 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 4: You couldn't collaborate with this person, right, So it's not 368 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 4: going to get better once you get divorced, and even 369 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 4: though you have to share kids and just to expect 370 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 4: that it's going to be difficult, and there's methods like 371 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 4: ray Rock. A lot of my patients when they have 372 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 4: to answer emails from them, instead of answering it themselves, 373 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 4: they go to chat ept and ask them to email 374 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 4: them like, how do I respond to this? Because of 375 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 4: course it is very triggering, and especially you know when 376 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 4: you love your kids and you want to. 377 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: Protect them, right, is there something in your book that 378 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: when you were writing it, you're like, I still struggle 379 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: with this. 380 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 4: You know, at this point in my life, it's been 381 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 4: so long. Well, I can give you a real life example. 382 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 4: So when I first started to get public, right with 383 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 4: all of this, because I waited a long time to 384 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 4: after the movie. If you notice, I didn't just say 385 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 4: something just to talk. I waited till I actually had 386 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 4: something to say. And as you could imagine, my ex 387 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 4: was not so thrilled. 388 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: Oh so he gets to tell his story, but you 389 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: don't get to tell your story. Classic he said to 390 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:31,959 Speaker 1: my kids, I can't believe your mother's doing this. 391 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 4: And I said, oh, is Jordan my victim? Now? Is that? 392 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 4: What's happening, And I said, tell you, dad, he wrote 393 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 4: a book and made a movie. I can make a 394 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 4: three minute TikTok and you can, right. And if I 395 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 4: backed down to him, I'm not walking my dog. But 396 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 4: he tried, but I but I just said, you know, 397 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 4: the train has left the station. I'm here to help people. 398 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: Sorry, Right, that makes sense. So what are some of 399 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: the biggest takeaways that you want people to know with 400 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: your book? 401 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 4: So one, some of the biggest takeaways are that if 402 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 4: you're listening to this and something's resonating and you feel 403 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 4: like you're in a trauma bond, don't ignore your gut 404 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 4: because I just did a video about the vagus nerve 405 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 4: and how it connects to our gut and sends signals 406 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 4: back up to our brain. Our gut tells us the truth. 407 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 4: And if something is like you're like, oh oh, don't 408 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 4: ignore it. Reach out to the helpers because there are 409 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 4: helpers everywhere that can help you. And if you decide 410 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 4: that you're in it and you're living with somebody and 411 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 4: you're going to leave, don't tell them. You can never 412 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 4: let them see you coming. You have to now wear 413 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 4: the mask like they wear a mask. I call them 414 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 4: mask Romeo and Dirty John. You have to wear the 415 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 4: mask and plan your escape without them knowing. 416 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: Okay, you talk about the connection with the vegus, naive 417 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: and your gut, So how much of that is actual prey? 418 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 2: Isn't real life feeling that transmits? And much of it 419 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 2: is actually emotional trauma from from the past that you've 420 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: got in your your brain is then programming. 421 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 422 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 3: Is it difficult for people. 423 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 2: To to separate or make a distinction between between the two, 424 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: because I would I would imagine that there's a reaction 425 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 2: to something which you might feel sometimes is your gut instinct, 426 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: but it's actually trauma from when you felt something similar before. 427 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, the actually the difference is that when you 428 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 4: really get triggered with trauma, Yes, you can, like there's 429 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 4: a saying if you feel hysterical, it's historical, right, that 430 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 4: it can be from the past. But I find that 431 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 4: those reactions and triggers have a lot more words and 432 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 4: have a lot more narrative then when you're in the 433 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 4: present moment, because the vagus nerve the body is in 434 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 4: the present moment. That's why it's so important to listen 435 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 4: to it. So I give an example of this when 436 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 4: my ex was asking me to marry him, and I 437 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,959 Speaker 4: reached out and said yes, and my gut said uh oh, 438 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 4: and I totally overrode that. I was like, I'll take 439 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 4: that by the part diamond, thank you, and so and so. 440 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 4: The vagus nerve is really in real time, okay, because 441 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 4: the body of time. Yeah, great question, thank you, welcome. 442 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: What are for you the biggest red flags that you 443 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: see in relationship couples that you were like, this is 444 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: what you should watch out for. 445 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 4: So you know, the first one is a substance use disorder. 446 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 4: That's usually a problem if you go out on a 447 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 4: date somebody has ten drinks. That's not a great sign. 448 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 4: But also a very simple one is trying to set 449 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 4: a boundary with your partner. You know they might come on, 450 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 4: you know, because people were like, how do you know 451 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 4: it's love bombing? Maybe it's just real love. Maybe you know, 452 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 4: how do we tell the difference? Well, if you're confused 453 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 4: about that, you don't know if it's love bombing or 454 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 4: just like a great new relationship, set a boundary, tell 455 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 4: them something you won't tolerate, tell them something you won't 456 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 4: stand for, and see how they behave if they're like, yeah, 457 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 4: I hear that. You know, that makes sense. I respect that, Okay, 458 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 4: But if they get defensive and angry and want to 459 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 4: plow through your boundary, that's a huge red flag. 460 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: God, I wish I knew what boundaries was when I 461 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: was twenties or even thirties. Me too, Yeah, a lot 462 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: a bummer man learning it at forty is this is 463 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: such a blow. 464 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 4: Like you learned it, You learned it. I didn't learn 465 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 4: it either. So I went to the Karen Foundation. 466 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, gosh, the things you learn. And then when 467 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, speaking of like narcissism and stuff, what is 468 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: something that you want to go Actually, that's not accurate 469 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: with that. 470 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 3: That's a good question. 471 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, so you know the person in this relationship, I don't. 472 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 4: I think they're just a narcissist, because narcissists are entitled, 473 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 4: God bless you, they're entitled, they're self absorbed, they're exploitative. 474 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 4: But I find that these people I call them a 475 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 4: pathological lover because what I say is that this person 476 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 4: will use harm, exploit, and betray everyone to get their 477 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 4: needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. And I 478 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 4: believe that anybody that would do that is mentally unwell, 479 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 4: and that's what pathological means. So I think they can 480 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 4: have some narcissism, some psychopathy, some sadism, some machiavelianism in them, 481 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 4: and they usually are impulsive. They usually have a compulsive 482 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 4: process disorder like sex or gambling, substance abuse of mood disorder. 483 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 4: They're very complicated being. 484 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: Are you looking at me? 485 00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: No, no, no, from my past, I'm like just shaking 486 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: my heads over here, just connecting. 487 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 4: So there you know what I'm like you they were 488 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 4: just a narcissist. 489 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, right, yeah, Now that's good to hear, like 490 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,959 Speaker 2: all the because you people did and I've said this before, 491 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 2: were they really use the word narcissistic or you're a 492 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: narcissist so many times when people don't really know what 493 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: it is or what it entails or what it surrounds. 494 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 2: So it's good to actually hear you say, well, it's 495 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 2: not just narcissism that people have to feel and look 496 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: out for. It's all these yeah, it's all these other 497 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: sociopathic things. 498 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 4: Exactly exactly, because what happens behind it's all about the 499 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 4: intention behind the behavior, right, So it's like somebody can 500 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 4: have a level of intentions and we don't know it. 501 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 4: We just think like, oh, they just want to be 502 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 4: you know, like like my ex when I when I 503 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 4: was personating him, and he was like, I'm not going 504 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 4: to marry I'm not going to date you if you 505 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 4: don't marry me, and I was like, what, I just 506 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 4: want to date, you know, But it was that was 507 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 4: like not of the discussion. I couldn't have a boundary. 508 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 4: It was his way or the highway. And I think 509 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 4: that that was highly manipulative to kind of trap me in. 510 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 3: Was there a part of you that was attracted to that. 511 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 4: You know, I'm from Brooklyn, so we would get into 512 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 4: like actually rip rrian screaming fights about that, and I 513 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 4: think what would happen is I would feel violated. But 514 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 4: he was such a strong person and I was so 515 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 4: madly in love with him. I was just like, oh, 516 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 4: he just loves me so much. 517 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: Right. Well in at twenty he said what twenty three? 518 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 4: Yes, you know, yeah, I was really not that right 519 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 4: at that point in my life, and I really believed 520 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 4: in the myth of romantic love. 521 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So I know we kind of talked about 522 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: takeaways and stuff like that. But when people read your book, 523 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: is there something like what is I guess what is 524 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: the biggest takeaway of all of it for the reader? 525 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 4: The biggest takeaway of all it is that abuse is 526 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 4: never the fault of the victim. Abuse and addiction are 527 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 4: always the fault of the person who's doing that. And 528 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 4: that's why I wrote my book to really turn the 529 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 4: stigma on the victim, because we're always asking why does 530 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 4: she stay? She's codependent, she's got a long helplessness, and 531 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 4: it's like why don't we ask why does he do that? 532 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 4: And so there's so much shame with being in one 533 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 4: of these relationships. It's so embarrassing and humiliating. I know 534 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 4: it was for me, and I know it is for 535 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 4: all my patients, and so I really wrote the book 536 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 4: to turn the stigma of the victim on its head 537 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 4: and say to them, it's not your fault. It's your 538 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 4: responsibility to heal and to get out. But somebody's abuse 539 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 4: is not your fault. 540 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: Well, and it's unfortunate the piece of I mean, it 541 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: took me years to feel that it wasn't my fault 542 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: from my previous abusers, like from the very first one 543 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: to my last one, Like yeah, but it is the 544 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: hardest piece of all of that is it's always their 545 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,239 Speaker 1: words that make you feel like it's your fault so 546 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: to rework. I mean even there's things where you know, 547 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: my now husband will say to me and it's like 548 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: I have to check myself to because it's just hard 549 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: because you hear sometimes the abuser's voice override your own 550 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: feeling thoughts and actually so it's I'm like, wait, no, wait, no, 551 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: I don't deserve that, right, Okay, I have to like 552 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: remind myself of that and like, so true, But you 553 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: just hear them being like, well you did this, or 554 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: like you shouldn't have kicked me out of the house, 555 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: and I'm like, the but that doesn't result in you 556 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: putting your hands on me or then sleeping with a prostitute, 557 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. 558 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 4: Like, yeah, you know, they can blame anything. And I'm 559 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 4: glad you brought that up because we do internalize their 560 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 4: voice because at the end of the day, they want 561 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 4: mind control. 562 00:29:59,120 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 563 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 4: Right, So you're right, you do have to really reprogram 564 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 4: yourself and that takes a lot of time and intention. 565 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: Yeah I almost said that, like I've never understood, right, 566 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 2: and I've come across people in my life where you 567 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: think about them, you like, you're actually so manipulative. And 568 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: I can never understand anyone that wants to be calculated 569 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 2: or manipulative in a way to affect someone's mind and 570 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: actually reprogram them. I've never ever ever, and I've listened, 571 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: I've been part of it where it's happened to me, 572 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 2: and I can never understand people. I'm like, you know, 573 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 2: just be a good person and realize that this is 574 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: this is not right, Like the calculation in order to 575 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 2: affect someone deliberately, I can never like listen, people can 576 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 2: be reactive and impulsive, I get that in nasty at times, 577 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: but people who are cal calculated, I can never understand it, 578 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: Like over days, weeks, years, trying to really reprogrammed someone's thoughts. 579 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 4: It is it's really when you don't think like that. 580 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 4: That's why I wrote my book, is because I want 581 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 4: to teach people that people to think like this, and 582 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 4: you need to know how they think, because when you 583 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 4: don't think like that, like you, I could never imagine it, 584 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 4: and it's hard to wrap your head around. It sounds 585 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 4: like you picked a good one this time. 586 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: I believe we both picked right this go around. Ye, 587 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: But you know, we live and we learn, and you 588 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,959 Speaker 1: know we all need to run like hell. So everyone 589 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: get run like hell and then run like hell. Yeah, yeah, 590 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: it's great. 591 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know there is hope. I'm happily with 592 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 4: Sudy now for twenty five years. 593 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: Well, and I think too, like not to like hate 594 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: on ex's and stuff like that. You know, we're all 595 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: just doing the best with where we're at in that 596 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: season of life and not excusing abuse or any of 597 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: those things at in the slightest. But you know, I 598 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: so think there's there's hope in the end, for for 599 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: for new beginnings. 600 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 4: Possibly there is, there is what we're prime examples. 601 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for coming on. 602 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Guys, have 603 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 4: a great day, all. 604 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: Right, appreciate you. Bye bye, bye bye