1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Quody doats, but Joseph's gotten more, to the disappointment of 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: many people in my life, I have never been a handyman. 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: It's just not something that I've applied myself to. You know, 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: there's certain things I can do. But if you're looking 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: for me to hang cabinets in a house, if you're 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: looking for me to hang drywall, I ain't your man. 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: Now I've been tasked with doing it, and I kind 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: of carry stuff around. I'm a great tool carrier, and 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: you know, you tell me to go here, and I 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: grunt and I say, okay, you know, you tell me 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: to lift. I left all that, but I've never been 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: one to do that. But you know it's interesting. I 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: can look around my house and for some reason, I 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: have any number of tools I bought over the years, 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: and I still can't remember, first off, why I bought them. 16 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: And secondly, you know, why is this fill up screwdriver 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: inside my sock drawer? I have no idea, but there 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: at rest. The same thing applies with hammers. I've got 19 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: a number of hammers and their different sizes, different shapes. 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: I know that they serve different functions. Heck, I've even 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: got a sledgehammer. Now I can use sledge hammer. I've 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: busted up concrete. I've split wood with it, you know, 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: using a sledgehammer and a metal wedge and homemade wedges. 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: I used to love to split wood and stayed in 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: shape doing that way when selling firewood as well when 26 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: I was young. But today we're going to talk about 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: a case that does, in fact involve a hammer. It 28 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: involves a hammer and a young man who mercifully was 29 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: adopted into a family. It involves a mother who chose 30 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: to adopt someone, and in the end, it involves her 31 00:01:54,920 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: body being found on the side of the road in 32 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: a trash can. Coming to you from the beautiful campus 33 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: of Jacksonville State University, I'm Josephcott Morgan and this is 34 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: body Bags, Dave. I'd break into a course of if 35 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: I had a hammer, but I hate that kind of 36 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: folk music, so I'm not going to do it. 37 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: Really. 38 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never been a fan of that. 39 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: He never had to go to a camp where you 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: sit around you camp fire and sing kumbay y'a and 41 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: all that stuff. And if I had a hammer. 42 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: Really, if I've done that. 43 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: See, I was always the guy in the back making 44 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: up my own words that we just a yeah, I 45 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 2: mean I would some kid would always laugh, another would 46 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 2: always cry. You always know you're winning when you can 47 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 2: make one child laugh and another child cry. You go 48 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: to the exact same. 49 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: Joke, multi spectrum kind of person. 50 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: And that's what this guy is. Jordan Weims. You know what, Joe. 51 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: This guy, Jordan Weiams, is sixteen years old. He was 52 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: a doc did by Spring Wems. Spring is a mom 53 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: of five, adopted and biological okay, and forty nine year 54 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: old woman who I'm looking everywhere I can just to 55 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: find one person that would say. I passed by her 56 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: at school one day and she didn't wave. Okay, she 57 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: wasn't that. She's the person that everybody wanted to be like, 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: and so for her to be a part of this 59 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 2: story today breaks your heart. And it started with discipline. 60 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: She was trying to show Jordan what would happen to 61 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: him if he continued doing what he was doing. Here's 62 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: what he did. Sixteen year old Jordan and his younger brother, 63 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: they went out, got in a little trouble, and the 64 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: police chased them. Now I don't know all the ins 65 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: and outs, mainly because the other sibling is young, and 66 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: you know miners, they keep all this stuff under wraps. 67 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: But they got into enough trouble that the bigger brother 68 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: bore the brunt of the punishment. And the punishment was this, 69 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm gonna put you in this orange jumpsuit like they 70 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: wear at County. I'm gonna take away your bed and 71 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: give you a bed roll, and you're gonna eat chicken 72 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 2: and beans and franks and beans and things like that 73 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: that they serve. And actually, to be honest, you that 74 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: that's good jail food if you get that. But that's 75 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 2: the and so that was the punishment, and it was 76 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 2: in that process that this sixteen year old boy decided 77 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: to get payback. And the reason we can name the 78 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: sixteen year old Jordan Willis is he's being charged as 79 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: an adult for first degree murder of his adopted mother, Joe. 80 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: In this day and age where too many times guys 81 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 2: our age say, parents these days are not you know, 82 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: they're they're not disciplining their children properly. I looked at 83 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: what she did and I thought, I wish I had 84 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: thought of that. You know, that's a good discipline right there. 85 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: It is, and it it goes to I don't know, 86 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: a broader because it's a theme that I was living 87 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: my life before I was living in my life before 88 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: I ever watched the series Seinfeld, and the one episode 89 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: that's always stuck with me as George cassins that he's 90 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: going to do the opposite, and I'd been doing that 91 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: for years and years and kind of, you know, found 92 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: out that if I saw somebody that did something that 93 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: where they wound up in a situation that was catastrophic, 94 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: I knew that if I could do the opposite of 95 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: what they're doing, I'd probably come out on the write end, 96 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact. And it extended to my 97 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: son Noah, where when we used to go to Braves 98 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: games all the time in downtown, you know, when they 99 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: still had the stadium, you know, in actually in Atlanta, 100 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: And I remember one day he was asking me about 101 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: the area that I worked, and I was gonna was like, 102 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: and this sounds very foolhardy for me to do this. 103 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: I was like, I'll take you to the worst place, 104 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: one of the worst places as I've worked. And we 105 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: wind up going down the road. We're on the south 106 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: side of Atlanta, and we wind up in front of 107 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: the Federal Penitentiary in Atlanta. If you've never seen this place, 108 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: it looks like something out of a Batman movie. Is gray, 109 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: very gothic. It's got this big fence, and it is 110 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: how some of the most notorious criminals anywhere in our country, 111 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, some of the worst crimes you can imagine. 112 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: And I remember looking at Noah and he was probably 113 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: eight or nine. I said, son, I said, those fellows 114 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: that are in that place wish that they had a 115 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: second chance. They wish that they could go back. I said, 116 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: your slate is clean. And you know, you don't want 117 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: to wind up in a place like you don't want 118 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: to wind up in County. But you know this is 119 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: the pinnacle. You know when you get to this level, 120 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: and sometimes it's merely just demonstrating to your child what 121 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: outcomes are. Now whether or not the child is going 122 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: to be adherent to that advice, who knows, because you know, 123 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: kids have a monitor their own and you never particularly 124 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: know what the dynamic is going to be with a 125 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: mom and a child, or parent and a child inside 126 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: of a residence where you're trying. You know, the one 127 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: thing you want to do is make sure you get 128 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: them out of the house intact with some kind of 129 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: baseline of morality and some kind of functional skills so 130 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: that they can thrive, right, And maybe that's what she 131 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: was aiming for. I think so yeah. I mean I 132 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have a problem with this in theory. 133 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: No I don't either. I thought, like I told you, 134 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: I thought not bad. You know, in this day and 135 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: age where we are telling people don't spank your child 136 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: and things like that. I mean, you and I both 137 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: know what it's like to have a shoulder hit a wall. 138 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: And you know, and you realize that your shoulder does 139 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: hit the wall right before your head does, and that's 140 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: always the weird one. You never go head first into 141 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: the sheet rock. It's always shoulder first. It's like that 142 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: that that did not come from my head. That was 143 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: my shoulder. 144 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: Yes, But anyway, you and I come from background though, 145 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: where it went to extreme. 146 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm not saying that was good or healthy. 147 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: And most people, you know, it's really hard for people 148 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: to hit a healthy middle ground. I think, uh. And 149 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, being a parent doesn't come with an instruction book. 150 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: All of us are figuring it out on the way 151 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: along the journey, you know. And you say, well, I 152 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: had other kids I can handle this, not necessarily, because 153 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: each kid is their own individual and so you have 154 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: tune into it. 155 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: Man, my older brother is the reason I exist. I'm 156 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: not kidding my old Yes, my older brother, Mike, he 157 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 2: is even now. He is the good guy. I mean, 158 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: if there's a white hat, he would be in all white. 159 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: This is a kid that you know what he's like. 160 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: When he was born they brought him home from the hospital. 161 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: He napped the whole way, you know. When they got inside, 162 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: they said, we're going to eat it this time, and 163 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: he said great. He said how long do I sleep? Now? Great, 164 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: That's what he did. And the thing is so my 165 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: mom was like, this is perfect. We need another one. 166 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: I came out with a margarito in one hand a 167 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: cigarette and the other said. 168 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: Let's go most party. Man. 169 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: He used to be in charge and I spent you know. 170 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. Five years ago, five years ago, 171 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: Jordan Weams wrote this to his adoptive mother, Dear mom, 172 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: I love you because you are smart, kind, and you 173 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: are very loving. That's what I love about you. Jordan 174 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: Reams wrote that to the woman when he was eleven 175 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 2: years old. Five years later, he takes a hammer to 176 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: her head and Joe, you mentioned different types of sledgehammer, 177 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: things like that that you may or may not know 178 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: how to use. Most of us have seen a hammer, 179 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: and I'm picturing a claw hammer, you know, where you've 180 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: got the hammer one side and the claw on the other. 181 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 2: And in my head, I'm thinking that is not I mean, yes, 182 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: it's a weapon. It can be used as a weapon, 183 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 2: but I'm not thinking it's a good weapon. I'm thinking 184 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: you would have to do a lot of damage with 185 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: that in a bunch of different areas for it to 186 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: be effective as a killing tool. 187 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, and okay, let's qualify that by saying 188 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: it can be an effective weapon in the hand of 189 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: someone that knows how to use it. And as a 190 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: matter of fact, there are weapons such as hammers that 191 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: have been used in warfare going back millennia. And you know, 192 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: if you go to the arm Museum over and in 193 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: Great Britain, and you know you see some of the 194 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: medieval accoutrement that they have over there, some of these 195 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: weapons are absolutely ghastly. It's just that over the period 196 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: of time. You know, we use firearms now most of 197 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: the time, but when you see the things that men 198 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: have invented over the years and the utility that they have, 199 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: and just just so that we know, you know, when 200 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about a hammer, the utility of a hammer, 201 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: it is certainly a bludgeoning object. When we talk about bludgeoning, right, 202 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: we're referring to a discussion that we've previously had I 203 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: think many times, and I think I even did an 204 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 1: entire lecture on air about blunt force trauma. And it's 205 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: a topic that's always fascinated me because it just goes 206 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: you know, there's any number of directions that it can 207 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: go in. But hammers in particular are interesting because in 208 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: particular a claw hammer, So you know, when you think 209 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 1: about the business end of the hammer, and what I'm 210 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: talking about is that flatthead where you're actually using it 211 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: to drive a nail into you know, into a board 212 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: or a wall or whatever it is that you're using 213 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: it for. It has very specific utility. Sometimes and I 214 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: or anybody to do this, it hasn't taken a look 215 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: at it. Look if you have a hammer around your house, 216 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: check and see if it's textured on the business end 217 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: of it, because some of them are actually textured with 218 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: these little they almost look like little hash marks on them, 219 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: and I think that some manufacturers believe that that that 220 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: prevents any kind of slight slippage when it strikes like 221 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: the head of a nail. Okay, interestingly enough, if it's 222 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: being used as a bludgeon, guess what, you have a 223 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: pattern that will be transferred onto the skin and you 224 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: can make that out. There's with blunt force trauma, there's 225 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: a lot of friction that's created because you're literally tearing 226 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: the skin. That's where you know, we talked about in 227 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: our when I gave a lecture on sharp force injuries. 228 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: You know, we talked about that a laceration is not 229 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: a sharp force injury, it's a tearing injury associated with 230 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma. So that friction creates this kind of 231 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: ripping of the skin. Now what can happen Also if 232 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: you just have a smooth surface, you can also have 233 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: a friction abrasion on there as well. And if you 234 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: clean the wound where it makes point of contact on 235 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: the skin, you'll actually see it almost looks like what 236 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: you would see with a skinned knee. Okay, it's kind 237 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: of a braided but it very well might have a 238 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: circular pattern, and that circular pattern not only applies to 239 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: the skin, okay, but it also applies to the external 240 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: table of the skull, so that injury can transfer. I've 241 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: actually brought hammers into the morgue where we had hammer 242 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: attacks and once we got the scalp reflected. And what 243 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: that means is that when we dissect out along the 244 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: top of the head and we literally the scalp is 245 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: peeled away from the skull, the underlying external table of 246 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: the skull demonstrates these strike points. And Dave, I have 247 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: seen and I'm qualifying this beforehand. All right, I'm going 248 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: to use the term beautiful right here. But if you're scientifically, 249 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: if you're trying to demonstrate for court, there are bad 250 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: examples and then they're beautiful examples. And because these things 251 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: pop on screen, all right, So if you can show 252 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: an image just of a skull at autopsy where the 253 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: scalp is reflected, you've cleaned it up, there's no blood, 254 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: but you kind of see a plug shape that applies. 255 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: And when I say plug, it's about the size of 256 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: a quarter, dependent upon the manufacturer of the hammer, about 257 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: size of a quarter, and it's it kind of drives 258 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: the bone into the underlying brain and that's where you know, 259 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: you start to get into real problems. Here, the bone 260 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: itself will fracture circuit. You'll have a circular fracture, and 261 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: then it will radiate out almost like let's see what's 262 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: a good example of this. It will radiate out almost 263 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: like a broken windshield if it's struck by rock, and 264 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: you'll see these kind of spiderweb, you know, fractures that 265 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: are associated and you have the concentric which means the 266 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: center of the injury, the concentric strike point, and then 267 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: you'll have these eccentric lines that kind of radiate out 268 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: from it. It's really fascinating, you know what can be 269 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: done with the hammer and how vicious an instrument is. 270 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: And listen, that's just the business end of it. If 271 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about a claw hammer, this is a completely 272 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: different injury. And sometimes it can be misinterpreted as well, 273 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: because when the claw if you're flipping around, okay, and 274 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: the claw is actually used as the striking weapon, you 275 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: will get these very nasty injuries that almost look like 276 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: a beaver has inserted his teeth into the soft underlying 277 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: skin and if it latches on the skin, well actually 278 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: peel away as a perpetrator draws again for another strike. Well, Dave, 279 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: I hope I didn't, you know, scare you to the 280 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: point where you were running screaming off into the night. 281 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: That was not my intention. But I think that everybody 282 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: needs to understand how vicious an event like this is. 283 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: And you know, just kind of you know, thinking back 284 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: to to to you know, the evidence that's left behind 285 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: by hammer head. You know, this is kind of fascinating too. 286 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: I won't linger on this point too much. I've actually 287 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: had people where a hammer has been rotated if you 288 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: think about a hammer being rotated and it's kind of 289 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: in a pro while Okay, they've held the hammer that way, wow, 290 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: and struck down. And I have seen these patterns that is, 291 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: it literally looks like the silhouette of a hammer in 292 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: a laceration where it's kind of a braided along. I mean, 293 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 1: you can make out all the little points along the way. 294 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: You know, you can see. 295 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 2: There are some angry people in this world. If you 296 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 2: can any. 297 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: Angry people, and you know, hammer, a hammer again falls 298 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: into a category, Dave, of a weapon of convenience. Now, 299 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: you remember what I said about the medieval weapons. Right now, 300 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: if you're talking about because there there are these you know, 301 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: things that people build, you know now on these fantasy 302 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: uh constructs that they have, and some of the stuff 303 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: is based on medieval weaponry. If you brought something like 304 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: that to bear, that's not a weapon of convenience. A 305 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: weapon of convenience is anything that you have at your 306 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: fingertips inside of your home, something that can be reached for, 307 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: you know, kind of like you know, I don't know, 308 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: Professor Plum with the lead pipe and the conservatory, right, 309 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: lead pipe was not made to kill people with, okay, 310 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: but yet it can be utilized that way. The hammer itself, though, 311 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: carpenter hammer is not made to kill people. It's a 312 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: highly highly effective weapon. 313 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 2: Day when this story first came out, you were on 314 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: it right away. Yeah, and you sent it to me said, hey, 315 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: take a look at this, and I first started. When 316 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: I'm watching it, I'm going there's got to be more 317 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: to this. I mean, there always is. But we're dealing 318 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: with some young people here. Sixteen is very young. What 319 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 2: we're actually dealing with is beyond just the sixteen year old. 320 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 2: We're also dealing with the involvement of older and younger siblings. 321 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 2: What actually transpired with the life and Death is bring 322 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 2: wems Spring's forty nine years old, beautiful woman. She'd been 323 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: married to a man named Levi. They divorced. They're on 324 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: decent terms though they had two children together, but it 325 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: just didn't work out for them, so Levi would see 326 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: the children regularly. When one of the boys. They only 327 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 2: use the initials of the two youngest children TW and 328 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: AW because they're miners. The reason we can use Jordan's 329 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 2: name even though he is only sixteen in Oklahoma, he's 330 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 2: old enough to be an adult and he's being tried 331 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: as an adult, so that's why we have his name, 332 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 2: but not the other children. So we have a W 333 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 2: TW the younger brothers of the adopted Jordan now one 334 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 2: of the children. One of the boys had gone to 335 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 2: stay at a friend's house during a snowstorm. Pretty cool 336 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: thing to do when you're young. 337 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: You know, you kidding me? 338 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Oklahoma, I don't picture this is just 339 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 2: outside Oklahoma City. I don't picture Oklahoma City is getting 340 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: a lot of snow. I kind of picture them. 341 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: Like, get hammered. Yeah, I've got hammered. 342 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I didn't know that. Good. All right, Well, 343 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: then we have younger sibling A w returns home after 344 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: being at a friend's house during a snowstorm, and he's 345 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: looking for his mom. Jordan is home with the other 346 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 2: sibling tw and I don't know where is she. So 347 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: Jordan comes up with the story of, well, mom went 348 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: to our older sister's house to help care for her 349 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: newborn baby. Got a new baby. All right, that's fine, 350 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: you know, but you know you've got a little kid. 351 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: You've got a child here who's a minor. He's been 352 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 2: away at a friend's house. He wants to talk to 353 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 2: his mom, so he tries calling her. She's not answering 354 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: the phone. Tries to go in her bedroom, see if 355 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 2: there's any sign of anything. Her door's locked, her doors lot, 356 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 2: her car's here. You know, I can't get her on 357 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: the phone. So AW calls dad, Hey, dad, did you 358 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 2: talk to mom? No? Well, he tells him the same 359 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 2: story that Jordan told him, and Levi starts thinking about this. Okay, anyway, 360 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: that's on the twenty seventh, So Levi's trying to find 361 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 2: has anybody seen her? He reaches out to the daughter 362 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 2: who is supposed to be you know, that's where missus 363 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 2: Wims has gone, right, I hadn't seen her. Wait a minute, Jordan, 364 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 2: you told us that she went, that your mom went 365 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 2: to help her older sister with the baby, and she's 366 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 2: not there. She hasn't seen. Somebody's telling a story. Now 367 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 2: Levi doesn't get the answeres after, but AW, the boy 368 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: who was away on the snowstorm, and t W who 369 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: was at home with Jordan. Something's not right. Levi and 370 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: AW are Yeah, Levi and AW. They're talking back and forth, like, man, 371 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: Tw's not acting right. Man, something's not right. Well, after 372 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: they talk, Levi leaves. A neighbor calls Jordan and this 373 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: other son TW. They're fighting. They're fighting in the yard. 374 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: So now Levi comes back, they call the police. I mean, 375 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 2: it's a whole thing. And that's when. Now we're into 376 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: the day of the twenty eighth. Now, okay, this has 377 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 2: gone on for a twenty four hour period where she's 378 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: not they don't know where mom is. Aw comes home. 379 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: Tw is there with Jordan. They're fighting. Dad comes in. 380 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: He has he is not Jordan's dad, he's not Jordan's 381 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: adoptive dad. He's just AW and Tw's dad. 382 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: Right. 383 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: I know this gets a look confusing. Okay, I'm following brother. 384 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 2: Where is Spring Wems? I want to know where Spring 385 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: Wems is. She's forty nine, shes got five kids. Come on, 386 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 2: somebody tell me where she is. Can't find her. So 387 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: Chrif's deputies come in and take a missing person's call. 388 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 2: They take it. They look around her cars, here, doors, lock, 389 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: get her phone. Okay, we'll report her missing. All of 390 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: a sudden, LEVI and Aw take tw off to the side. 391 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: You want to stay here, man t w You've been 392 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: here with Jordan for a couple of days. Mom's gone. 393 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 2: You want to come with me. You seem like something's 394 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: not quite right. Oh, oh, he's just he's afraid. 395 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: He says. 396 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Hey, well do you know what happened to mom? 397 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? 398 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: I do talk to us. Jordan killed her with a 399 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: hammer and put her body in the trash can. What 400 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: where's the trash can? Down there by the road, waiting 401 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 2: on the truck to come and get it. Boom, they're 402 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: on the phone with cops. Y'all coming back. They hadn't 403 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 2: got back to the station yet to report do the 404 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: missing person's report. And they turn around and come back. 405 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: And that's what happened. So the body of missus Williams 406 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: Spring Wems is in a trash kind of drumster by 407 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: the road, Joe, where you have your old Hamburger meet 408 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: and everything else. I'm hoping that from that scenario, yeah, 409 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: you can tell us what happened, you know, from what 410 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 2: would take place? How do you go with a You've 411 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: got a beaten body in this thing. You've got a 412 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,479 Speaker 2: sixteen year old, And I don't picture a sixteen year 413 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 2: old as being a criminal mastermind, so I don't picture 414 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 2: him as being able to cover it up really well. 415 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: No, no, no, And first off, I want to say 416 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: something about this. Two little boys, all right, assuming they're boys, 417 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: Yes you are, aw Dave, do you have any idea 418 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: how lucky they are to somebody alive? Yeah, think about 419 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: that just for a second. If if what they're saying 420 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: is accurate, this could have wound up as a I mean, 421 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: an all out massacre in this house. And it's mind 422 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: blowing to me. Okay, so oh. 423 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, heyn. Let me back up real quick, just to add, 424 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: I want to add one last little thing to all this. 425 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: Please say, you got me on the edge of my 426 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: seat here. 427 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 2: This is the reason we know what actually transpired, right, 428 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: Jordan confessed. That's why they charged him. He charged, That's 429 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: why they charged him with the first degree murder. But 430 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 2: what they're going to have to do you've taught me this. 431 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 2: Police still can't have proved that he took a hammer 432 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: and beat her to death. And he says that after 433 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: she fell on the ground, he kept pumbling her with 434 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 2: his fists. What kind of rage does it take to 435 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 2: beat somebody? And you're going to have to describe this 436 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: for us because I can't quite understand what took place, 437 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: but we know it all happened, and we know it 438 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: was done by a sixteen year old boy. 439 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: So let me get this straight. He's saying that it 440 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: was a combination of a hammer and his fist. Yeah, 441 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: but he's running down at the point. Wow. Okay, So 442 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: all right, So yeah, I've had people beaten to death 443 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: by bare hands before. That does happen. But those types 444 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: of injuries look completely different than hammer injuries. So it's 445 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: going to be important to get that sorted. And here's 446 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: the thing. What came first, the hammering or the punching. 447 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: It sounds to me like he's saying hammering came first 448 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: and then punching followed. I really wonder if if he 449 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: was just kind of acting out and rage you know, afterwards, 450 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: you know, continue And what I mean by that is 451 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: that after she is deceased, he continues to pound on 452 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: on the deceased, you know, and what kind of injuries 453 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: would be generated, you know, relative to her now if 454 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: she was in and we've talked about anti mortem, perry mortem, 455 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: post mortem, if she's in a peri mortem state, there 456 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: would in fact be hemorrhage, perhaps in those areas where 457 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: he's struck with a bare fist, But the patterns that 458 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: a hand leaves behind are not necessarily going to be 459 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: very definitive, particularly if you're talking about a fist and 460 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: if he is punching into wounds. Okay, this is even 461 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: going to mask this further. What's going to be very 462 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: important is to see and I've always been fascinated by 463 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: this in the morgue from a scientific perspective of course, 464 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: is there is this weird delineation that you see with 465 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: with mass trauma like this where when you clean the 466 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: wounds up and we actually do a dissection of the wounds, 467 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: like you you make a you'll take your scalpel blade 468 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: and make an incision into an area. Say that's been 469 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, like a lacerated area, and you can see 470 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: like a full thickness hemorrhage that starts at the top. Okay, 471 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: I put the epidermis, it goes all the way down 472 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:21,959 Speaker 1: to you know, uh, right into the muscle you can 473 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: begin to die. Said. People always ask me about sequencing, right, 474 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's like Idaho. People want to know, you know, 475 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: sequencing not just with the victims, but what you know, 476 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: what sequence was where any of those victims stabbed in uh? 477 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: And that's very hard to tell. However, the one thing 478 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: you can do is you look for where hemorrhaging ceased 479 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: and the following wounds. You can say this is before 480 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: and after. Oh okay, if you've got someone that is, 481 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, handing out fists or using a hammer, where 482 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: you have hemorrhage in those areas, you'll see you'll have 483 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,239 Speaker 1: an appreciate for the hemorrhage in there. But every now 484 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: and then you'll get through that kind of milky line 485 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: there where the injuries stop having having any hemorrhage. And 486 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, one of the big questions I think that 487 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: that probably well crime see investigators, detectives, but I think 488 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: probably behaviorist that would look at this, Why why are 489 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: you doing this? You know what, what what's the rationale 490 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: for continuing to pummel this woman after she's down? And 491 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: we're going to hear all kinds I think probably is 492 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: this case develops, We're going to hear all kinds of explanations. 493 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: You know, We're going to hear things about penteprage and 494 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: uh just own and own broken homes, you name it. 495 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: They're going to parade everything out in this case. It 496 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: is fascinating though, you know that he that he did 497 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: roll over on it. I think because he's so young, 498 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: any defense attorney worth their salt is going to try 499 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: and mitigate what he sa said by virtue of his age. 500 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: And now I know he's being charged this way, but 501 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: if he gets but if he gets the attorney, they 502 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: get this in front of a sympathetic judge, we could 503 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: be looking at something completely different. But here in rest 504 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: the big question what will the science. 505 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 3: Tell us about the scene. 506 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: There's essentially three major areas that I'm interested in at 507 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: the scene. First off, the overall house. Every room in 508 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: that house, okay, including bathrooms all right, okay, because in 509 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: bathroom rooms in particular or sinks. We might find evidence 510 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: of a cleanup, okay, and that could mean taking out 511 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: the drains, any number of things, running cameras down into drains. 512 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: I've seen that done before. And if you're talking about 513 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: using a bludgeoning object, they actually have trace trace elements 514 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: of skin many times and tissue that are literally peeled off, 515 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, with a strike, and if that has been washed, 516 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: it can go down into a drain. If it hasn't 517 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: gone too far, you can perhaps find it then the 518 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: specific space where the attack took place. Because I have 519 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: no doubt in my mind that there is going to 520 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: be blood deposition at the scene. I'm talking about bloody 521 00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: footprints here. What I'm talking about is you're going to 522 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: see cast off with this because if she is struck 523 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: to the point where we've heard Dave, can you read 524 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: that description to me real quick. You had this great 525 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: description in your notes about the condition of Spring's head 526 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: I think, and her face perhaps, and it's absolutely ghastly. 527 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: I got to tell you. 528 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 2: What was her head? Her head and face were deformed 529 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 2: in this attack, and I was trying to find the 530 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 2: best way of putting it without being gross, because I 531 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: was trying to picture something that is not something one 532 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: can fathom. I mean, it's just a it's not something 533 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 2: we're used to seeing. And in looking at this, they 534 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: said that the massive damage to her face and her 535 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: head by the victim by a blunt object, deforming the 536 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 2: head and face of the victim, causing her apparent death. 537 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: You know, when you have deformed the face, Joe, and 538 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: deformed the head. Yeah, I'm thinking of men in black 539 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 2: when in minute the third one, when he takes the 540 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 2: iron skillet and he's beating the guy in the Chinese 541 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: restaurant and he beats his head flat, you know, and 542 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 2: then the antenna pops up. 543 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so yeah, So relative to this, I want 544 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: to see the space where this took place specifically, I 545 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: come back. I'm going to come back. 546 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead. 547 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 2: I was going to tell you that that was the 548 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: other thing that said that. Apparently it seemed police are 549 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: saying this now that they call it an ambush, a 550 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 2: surprise attack in the kitchen. Oh that he was in 551 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 2: the kitchen. Jordan was Jordan Williams is in the kitchen 552 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 2: and his mother came upon him in the kitchen where 553 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: he ambushed her. Now I know that where all of 554 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: our kitchens are laid out a little different. There would 555 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 2: be an area where, or in my kitchen where you 556 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: could actually hide and not be seen. If somebody were 557 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 2: to come in, you could ambush them, you know, in 558 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 2: my kitchen. But I'm thinking of a sixteen year old 559 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 2: creating such a massive, bloody mess, the physicalness of what 560 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 2: it takes to do that. But I'm thinking of the blood. 561 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 2: I'm thinking of cast off. I'm thinking of blood on 562 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: the ceiling, on the you know, because you're drawing back 563 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 2: with the hammer even you know, if it's just the 564 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 2: hammer's thinking of the cast off going from up the wall, 565 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 2: ceiling and back behind you, it's got to be everywhere, Joe. 566 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: It would be. And Hammer's in particular with those kinds 567 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: of surfaces, Dave Hammers in particular when you have a 568 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: strike again, I go back to, you know, when we're 569 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: teaching kids at Jack State about about cast off. It's 570 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: like dipping a paint brush into a bucket of paint 571 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: and kind of flipping it over your shoulder and you'll 572 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: get these big arcing or arcing arcing path that have 573 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: a central point of origin. And this is going to 574 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: be very dynamic. She's not going to go down. Probably 575 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: with a first strike, she'll scream, she'll have that pain impulse, 576 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: she'll react to it, and she will move. So when 577 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: she moves, the attacker moves. People think that many of 578 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: these things happen in a static moment. And look, she 579 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: very well may have been knocked down to the ground, 580 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: but even being knocked down to the ground is completely 581 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: different than being standing up straight or upright when you're 582 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: initially struck. So that attitude changes, the physical attitude changes, 583 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: and so it's going to manifest itself differently. The more 584 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: she's struck, the more tearing of the skin. Again that's 585 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: a laceration, and the more blood that will be produced. 586 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: You can actually strike somebody initially with a heavy instrument 587 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: and you might not even break the skin. Now there'll 588 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: be damaged none. Okay, don't misconstrue what I'm saying here, 589 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: but you don't necessarily tear the skin with that first strike. 590 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: And they've done some studies, i think, with pig carcasses 591 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: relative to this over the years to see how much 592 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: force it would take and what type of instrument this 593 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: sort of thing to actually break the skin with blunt 594 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: force trauma. So every time and you're not going to 595 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: hit the same spot every time either, okay, because you've 596 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: got somebody that obviously doesn't want to be struck. They're 597 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: reacting to pain, they're trying, you know, they're cooling up, 598 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: you know, they're trying to get away. And I'd really 599 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: be curious to know if all of the strikes on 600 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: her body were in totality the head. One of the 601 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 1: other things about wielding one of these things, you create 602 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: this incredible lever with your arm and holding the hammer, 603 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: and so it's very nonspecific. Okay, So even though you 604 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: might think you're going to target one area when you're 605 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: making a downward motion, if the person moves the slightest bit, 606 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: you're off center. I've had people that are struck on 607 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: the shoulders. I've had people that's struck on the side 608 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: of the neck, and you'll see those kind of coin 609 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: shaped contusions that didn't necessarily last rate, but you'll see 610 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: them there. So you've got a lot of action going on. 611 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: So I'm going to be very interested in his kitchen 612 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: because he may not have been aware of his surrounding. 613 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: So let's think about surfaces you have in there. You 614 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: have the countertops, right you're going to have the cabinets 615 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: in there, and then the ceiling. Maybe there's curtains. If 616 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: she's at the sink, there's curtains at the sink. You 617 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: know how many people have curtains that they're sink. You 618 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: know over there you can find particular bits of blood 619 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: there as well. So they will have to search this 620 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: thing from stem to stern, you know, looking over all 621 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 1: of these surfaces, and it's going to tell a tale 622 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 1: because nobody ever gets everything. I can't imagine a sixteen 623 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: year old boy being able to get everything at that 624 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: moment in time. Then I think one of the more 625 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: more critical areas as well, and this might be something 626 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: people just kind of blow off. In this case is 627 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: going to be that trash can. Okay, so when she 628 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: is placed in that trash can, whoever did this is 629 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: going to deal with a bloody mess. And I don't know, 630 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: and I know just for me. You know, we generate 631 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: garbage at home. Some of it's really heavy, you know, 632 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: and you're walking out with a bag. Sometimes you will 633 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: pause with that bag on the edge. After you're using 634 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: one hand to balance the bag, You've got another hand 635 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: on that lip of that container that you have to 636 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: flip up, you know, you know, it'll kind of flip backwards. Right. 637 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: That's with a garbage bag, Dave. We're talking about literally 638 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: dead weight of a woman who has probably got multiple lacerations 639 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: that she's leaking. The body is leaking from. There's going 640 00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: to be transfer blood. One of the biggest you might 641 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: find this interesting, one of the biggest areas that will 642 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: transfer from his hair. It's like dragging a dirty mop 643 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: over an area. And you can't and listen to head. 644 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: If he did this immediately, she's not gonna be stiff, 645 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: she's not gonna be rigid. So the head is kind 646 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,439 Speaker 1: of moving about, the arms are moving about, and he's 647 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: having to shift weight as he's doing it. And I 648 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: hadn't talked about his clothes because he's going to have 649 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of blood transfer onto his clothes and 650 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,240 Speaker 1: it ain't going to be his It's going to be springs. Okay, 651 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: if he's the one that did this. Grabbing the handle, 652 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: you know, for all of our friends out there that 653 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: have curbside pick up of garbage, you know, when you 654 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: pull that thing down to the road, you literally have 655 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: to grab hold of those plastic handles. And you have 656 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: to tip it right. Well, this is going to be 657 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: very interesting because the body inside of the trash can 658 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: is going to dictate how the thing is going to roll. 659 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: What if he has to go up over curb or 660 00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: something like that, He's having to adjust it, and then 661 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 1: he's grabbing the thing in multiple points, So you've got 662 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: transfer from the hands unless he's gloved up or he's 663 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,439 Speaker 1: wearing a rag over his hands or something like that. 664 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: I don't see this guy as like, you know, he's 665 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: not a Lex Luthor here, he's not an arch criminal here, 666 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: and even Lex Luthor gets caught by Superman, right, So 667 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: you're going to have these multiple points contact, you know, 668 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: all over the surface of this trash can. If he 669 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: manipulated the body inside of the trash can, like yeah, 670 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: he looks at the body and doesn't like the way 671 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: it's positioned, he's going to put his hands on the 672 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: body again to adjust it, to push in, and he 673 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: may have thrown trash on top of it. I hate 674 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: to say it, that's horribly disrespectful, but on top of 675 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: springs remains, there could be other things placed on top. 676 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: If he's doing his bare handed. First off, you're going 677 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:55,240 Speaker 1: to have perhaps bloody fingerprints that are a completely different 678 00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: kettle of fish than say, for instance, our depositive fingerprints 679 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: that we get, you know, when just the oils off 680 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,720 Speaker 1: of our fingers transfer onto a surface is something completely different. 681 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: My big hope here, and I think that they probably did. 682 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: I hope they saved this trash can. They security. As 683 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, you know what I would have 684 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: done if this had been me, And You're going to 685 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: think I'm a ghoul, but I don't care. Did you know, 686 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,399 Speaker 1: I would not have removed her from that trash can? 687 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 1: No way, no how, Yeah, I would have transferred that body. 688 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: You know, once I've established, once I've established that yes, 689 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: I do in fact have human remains inside this trash can, 690 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: what purpose does it serve for me to remove those 691 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: human remains from that trash can in a non controlled environment? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, 692 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: because you know, you want to take her to a 693 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,359 Speaker 1: location either the crime lab state crime lab, which, by 694 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: the way, this is you know Oklahoma, and I love 695 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,760 Speaker 1: Oklahoma from a medical legal perspective, because they don't have corners. 696 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: This is a state medical examiner and it's regionalized. They're 697 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: the they were one of the original states to actually 698 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,399 Speaker 1: have a statewide medical examer They don't have corners there, 699 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: so they have you know, they did a fantastic job. 700 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 1: For instance, the first thing that pops in my mind 701 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: is going to be the Oklahoma City bombing. They were 702 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 1: heavily involved in that, and they've got a crack crew 703 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: of people there, highly respected. You know, if they could 704 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 1: take those remains and convey them to that central location, 705 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,839 Speaker 1: you're going to knock down a lot of the opportunities 706 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: to smear this evidence or you know, uh uh uh 707 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: try you you would screw up the contexts by literally 708 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: picking her up out of the trash can in that environment. 709 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: If you can get flash photography all inside of that 710 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: trash can, all on the outside of that trash can 711 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: take your time with it and really really put your 712 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,280 Speaker 1: shoulder to the stone as far as processing and collecting 713 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: evidence here. You know, it's weird. This kid allegedly went 714 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: to great links to discard and disguise this homicide. But 715 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: in the end, in the end, what he did is 716 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:29,360 Speaker 1: that he actually preserved evidence. He literally encapsulated the beaten, 717 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: broken body of the woman who took a chance on 718 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: him when nobody else would. And this is what she 719 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: got for it. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.