WEBVTT - BONUS: Acquaintances vs Friends 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:04.520 From Vice and I Heart. I'm Dexter Thomas and this 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:09.640 is our second bonus episode, A conversation with Professor Hedgen Lee. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:12.920 When we were setting out to tell Tableau story, I 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.480 knew the Professor Lee was someone we had to talk to. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.560 She's a professor of communications and journalism at the University 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.079 of Southern California, but more importantly for us, she spends 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.200 a lot of time thinking about how in ka pop 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:30.200 fans are active partners or potentially adversaries, and not just 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.199 how things are marketed, but how K pop itself is created. 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.480 Just this background, we had a bunch of conversations before 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.519 I ever flew out to talk to Tableau. When I 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:43.600 came back, she was one of the first people I 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.360 wanted to talk to this sort of process, the bigger picture. 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.280 When we sat down to edit all this together, I 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:51.199 realized that there was a whole lot of insights she 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.760 gave me that went in behind the scenes that just 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.600 didn't make it into the show, like the origins of 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:00.600 K pop itself and American's attitudes toward it, and also 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.240 how fan culture has changed how we gather online even 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.560 before the pandemic, and also well, this is something we 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.160 get to near the end of the conversation. But there 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:12.880 is the fact that both she and I are professors. 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:15.760 There was some stuff I wanted to ask her advice about. 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.880 So with all that said, I present to you the 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:24.600 final Bonus episode, an extended conversation with Professor hedging Lee. 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:36.560 I hope you'll dig it. So my name is Hedging 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.279 Lee and I am clinical Assistant professor at Annimburgh School 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:45.800 of Communication and Journalism at USC. I teach classes on 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:50.320 popular culture, visual culture, and media consumption, and right now 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:54.120 my focus is on K pop. I started looking at 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.680 K pop as mostly as a bystander for a long 0:01:57.680 --> 0:01:59.400 period of time. I grew up listening to a lot 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.200 of them, but I didn't think about studying it until 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:06.080 I came to USC back in I started getting questions 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.000 from students about K pop, like my what, my thoughts 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.079 are uncertain artists, and I realized that there is actually 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.400 some kind of demand from students about wanting to learn 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.080 about K pop, Like K pop foundom is the most 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:21.480 visible fandom right now, Like if you go online, you 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:25.880 can see so many K pop fans expressing their feelings 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.720 or their thoughts on whatever it's related to K pop. 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.959 So I study it more as like an observer rather 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:35.280 than as an insider. And it can be good, it 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:37.959 can be bad. So I've heard you do this in 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:42.280 a few different ways. And I think the history of 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:47.040 K pop is extremely interesting. Um, How how did k 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.160 pop become to even be called k pop? How did 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.360 this whole thing start? K pup is a term that 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.960 nobody's really sure who coined it. It's just one of 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.919 those worst that people suddenly start to use it. One 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:01.840 thing that sure is that kapap was not a term 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.200 that was coined by Koreans um. So. K pop was 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:10.800 a term that the Japanese industry had given to Korean 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.680 music that had more Western influence, that seemed more trendy 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.800 and seemed very different. Um. And those were the songs 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.560 that were coming out in the nineties that was more 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.600 dance oriented and more youth oriented as well. Um. And 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.760 then people started to use it as K pop became 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:33.160 more popular around the world, and once the term became 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.800 more widely used, Korean industry, Korean government, and Korean public 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.000 started to take it up as their own word. Um. 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.880 And I think the first time Korean public started to 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.240 really use K pop would be like in the late 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:50.800 two thousand. How would you define then, Yeah, it's very tricky. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.680 It really depends on how you're studying it. Um. I 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.480 do think that is bigger than just music. It's definitely 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.880 not a genre. I know some people think that kapa 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.600 is a genre, um, but if you look at K pop, 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.960 it is a mixture of so many different forms of music, 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:07.880 forms and styles of music, So it is bigger than 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.040 a genre. Is definitely an industry, but it's a culture. 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.560 I would consider k pop to be a culture, uh 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.480 that encompasses not only music, but also lifestyle, um, also 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:27.000 about fashion, also about uh, you know, uh behavior, So 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.560 it is a culture. That's how I would define k pop. 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.000 How would you say that? The relationship between K pop 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.880 artists and their fans are different from say, your average 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.960 American artists and their fans. So one of the things 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.200 that a lot of people who are not familiar with 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.040 K pop would notice is the close relationship that K 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.600 pop fans seem to have with K pop artists. There 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.440 seemed to be a greater sense of intimacy between K 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.160 pop fans and K pop artists. I think it has 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.240 to do with Korea being a small country, so it 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.960 is easier for fans to actually see their artists up 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.839 close or to meet them, um in person. I'm not 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.720 saying it's easily easily done, but it's doable. Um. And 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.279 then of course social media and online uh technology has 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.520 just made it easier for fans to kind of build 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.440 this para social relationship with artists, and it has to 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:24.000 do with the artists being more visible online because K 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.640 pop industry has been very active and using online tools 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.040 to reach out to fans. So it's not just YouTube, 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.600 it's not just Twitter. There's also a thing called v live, 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:38.360 which is a Korean app uh that m artists would 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.360 use to directly communicate with their fans. They would like, 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:45.760 you know, like randomly send out Twitter message saying, hey, 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:47.960 we're going to be on v live from this time 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.159 to that, you know, on this day, from this time 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.360 to whatever, and fans would you know, they would log 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:56.200 in and they would get to they would have a 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.400 chance to like talk to the artists or ask questions 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.479 um or leaf you know, comments on the chat, and 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.760 the artists would read it and they would answer. So 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.640 there is that sense of intimacy that is being built. 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.080 Although that intimacy is kind of like, you know, it's 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.000 not like real intimacy, but there is a sense of 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.719 intimacy that can be built between the artists and the fans. 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.320 I know you've you've mentioned sort of the role that 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.800 or some inspirations of things like J pop or or 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.600 or even motown, and I wonder if you could sort 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.240 of explain lay that out a little bit for me. 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.000 J Pop was a term that was coined in the 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.200 nineteen eighties or late nineteen eighties, and that's when rock 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.960 music was extremely popular in the West, so a lot 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.120 of music that inspired J pop was rock based. Now 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:46.360 in Korea, the music that inspired K pop was mostly 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.240 Black American music because black American music was becoming more 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.159 mainstream in the in the nineties. They were the ones 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.320 that were associated as American music, not Black American music, 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.159 just American music for Koreans, and those were the songs 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.440 that would be played a lot in Korea at the 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.000 clubs or you know um or by the radio stations. 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.880 So K pop was inspired in terms of the sound, 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.440 it was inspired by black music. And that's something that 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.560 the founder of SM Entertainment is Suman set himself that 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.040 if J pop was inspired by rock music, k pop 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:24.680 is inspired by black music because that was the most 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:30.080 popular music in the nineties that Koreans were exposed to. 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:35.320 Sam was trying to create artists musicians. It wasn't just 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.880 going to be artists who focused on music. If it's 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:39.720 going to be focused on music, then it could have 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.720 been Sam music, right, But he changed it to sm entertainment, 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.480 which kind of foretells that there was this idea to 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.560 create artists who can be multitalented, not just in terms 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.480 of singing and dancing, but also who can like do 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.040 well in variety shows, who can act, or who can 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.360 have a career outside of being an idol. This is 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.840 really interesting you mentioned this because as you're as you're 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.360 talking about this, I mean that the K pop system 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:09.160 has elements and inspirations from from J pop, from motown, 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.600 from the US movie studio system from the fifties, and 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.119 also just watching a lot of MTV. But then now 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.840 as you're describing it a lot of US artists, it 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.880 looks like you're kind of taking cues from how to 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.840 manage themselves, or how to promote themselves, or how to 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.560 motivate their fan base so they can get like they 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.080 can get the kind of support and frankly purchasing power 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:37.000 that K pop audiences are giving that their artists. This 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.160 cycle is really interesting. Yeah, everything's coming back to circle. 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:43.840 I mean, I think I think that's that's That's one 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:45.960 of the things that really fascinates me is I think 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:52.640 a lot of times Americans in particular assume that if something, 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.760 some cultural phenomenon is happening outside of the United States 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.200 and it's necessarily taken from the US, and that we 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:02.400 inspired them. I'm not sure if people fully appreciate what 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.920 you're talking about here, which is that that is coming 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.560 back to the United States. There's some of the approaches, 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.200 if I'm understanding what you're saying, right, Yeah, I think 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.600 with the American K pop fans, they've just kind of 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.200 like has accepted accepted it. And I see a lot 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:22.559 of similar fan practices between the American k pop fans 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.960 and Korean kpop fans, like things that were uniquely Korean 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.599 fan practices. I see it being adopted by American K 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.600 pop fans now outside of the K pop world. Like 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.160 young artists, they're more Internet savvy, they're more social media savvy, 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.800 so they're using this tool in a way that allows 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.839 the fans to uh, you know, constantly talk about them 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.200 or promote them, which we haven't seen with like more 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:50.640 established artists of like the early Adds or the tens. Yeah, 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.400 I mean, as you're describing the K pop fans, the 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:56.560 closest thing I can think of in the U S 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.720 is maybe Beyonce and the Beehive where where I know, 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.280 and you know, don't say anything bad about Beyonce on 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.280 Twitter because you know that they will come for you. 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.679 But it seems like kop is It seems like it's 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.480 another level. Yeah. The difference between bee Hive and K 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.720 pop though, is Beyonce isn't really active on social media, 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.679 Like she's not the one. No. I mean she went 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.720 once in a while, but it would be very private 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.680 and would be really curated, like it would be really 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.080 carefully thought out. Um, and yeah, she's just not that 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.960 visible on social media. She has social media accounts, but 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.320 she's not using it to communicate with her fans, which 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.480 is really really different from how K pop artists use 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.280 social media. Um. Of course it's mostly promotional, but they 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:41.920 use it very actively to create a sense that they're 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.760 updating their everyday life to their fans, so the fans 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.360 feel like they're getting something from their artists. They know 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:51.360 it's promotional stuff, but because it's constantly updated, they feel 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.680 like they're getting to see pieces of their lives, everyday lives. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.360 So it does kind of make them feel like like 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.640 close to the artists that they love. With Beehive, I 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:04.240 think it's also because of like how Beyonce hasn't really 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.319 been like despite all these great works that she's released, 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.480 she hasn't gotten like the proper recognition from the Grammys 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.760 and you know, and we know why. And I think 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:15.800 the fans are just like you know, guarded, like they 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:17.880 want to protect her and make sure that she gets 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.680 the credit that she deserves. And um, so that's why they, 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.840 you know, are very protective of her and um are 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:28.880 bad at like when Beyonce gets criticism. They're the ones 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.960 who like would be at the forefront of like, you know, biting. 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.240 I guess that. I think I see that with Nicki 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.280 minaj Is fans and the Taylor Swift. The swift is 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.120 also can be very protective of the artists. But I 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:46.600 think it's also because the and it might not necessarily 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.240 because be because they're trying to protect the artists. Maybe 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:53.480 in some way of them protecting themselves and the fandom itself. Right, 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:58.360 I mean, it wasn't like k pop was a massively 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:02.559 popular genre even because people weren't even really saying it 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:04.720 so much, even at the beginning of the two thousands. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.880 And of course hip hop starts to develop in Korea 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:13.000 around this period. So how was the development of k 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.720 pop and Korean hip hop? How do those two affect 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.600 each other and how are they different? Yeah, so although 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.080 kip hop was not popular or as popular in the 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.760 States until more recently, k pop has always been popular 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.880 in Korea, Korean music it wasn't. It just wasn't called 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.720 k pop until much later. So Korean music, the popular music, 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:38.160 has always had a massive peel, was widely popular and 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.720 was recognized by a lot by the wider Korean public. 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.040 With Korean hip hop was interesting in that it's really 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.800 hard to distinguish like Korean hip hop from pop because, 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.840 as I said, keep hop and incorporate so many different 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.360 genres of music, including hip hop. So there would like 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:00.640 even like the Hot had rap and hip pop elements 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.960 in their songs. It might not like sound like a 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.880 conventional hip hop music, but it had hip hop elements. Uh, 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.320 and street style dance. So hip hop has always been 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.160 part of or has been embedded in in kp hop 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.360 for a long period of time. But there were like 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.959 some groups that were kind of like very um I guess, 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.920 discontent with idle style of music, especially those who grew 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.520 up in the States and who were well versed in 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.760 hip hop music. Uh. They started coming back to Korea 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.040 in the late nineties, and uh there were some underground 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.000 hip hop artists, and there were some hip hop artists 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.720 who were actually more popular, like I'm thinking about like 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.400 uh Tiger j K and his group Drunken Tiger Um 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.920 who you know, had a song actually that kind of 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.280 like this is the idol music and say you don't 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:48.760 know what hip hop is, this is how you do 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.960 hip hop, you know. Uh, so there's actually been here. Yes, 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.000 he lived in l A, right right. I think he 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.880 went to the same high school as Angelina Julie Beverly Hills. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:03.480 I I know, Tim, I but exactly. But but but 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.480 then there's this company called Wig Entertainment which becomes one 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.079 of the Big three, and unlike Essen, which had more 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:13.600 polished idol music, why she had a more hip hop 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.000 style music or they created more of a hip hop 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.960 style music for their artists. So the team that first 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.640 came out is called Jinushan, which is a duo and 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.560 the members are both from then one is from Guam 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.800 and the other I think it's from the mainland. I 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.880 can't remember where, but they're both Korean American and they 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.800 were popular, but it was It wasn't until a group 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.720 that's called One Time that came out that really established 0:14:37.920 --> 0:15:06.640 y G as a hip hop music label. So I want, 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.040 I want to get into sort of the heavy stuff. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:14.000 Um do you what did you think when you first 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:20.160 I saw the phrase Tajanio? Yeah, yeah, where you? Where 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.360 were you? Graduate student? I was a graduate student, so 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.320 that's why I wasn't like paying as much attention as 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.240 I should be because I was busy with my course 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.720 works and stuff like that. But it was just interesting 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:32.520 because I thought it was going to be a temporary thing, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.240 but then it lasted for longer than I thought it would. Uh. 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.480 And then after after it kind of like blew up, 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.760 I started like reading about it and like, you know, 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.720 because it was just a really bizarre and interesting case 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.840 to study as a pop culture scholar. Uh, So I 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.160 looked into it. It wasn't really about fandom, or it 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:56.280 wasn't really about key pop as UH. People who don't 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:00.680 really know about Tajano or Tableau would think it was 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.000 much bigger than that. And Yeah, when I first heard 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.760 about Tajan you know like and their claims that Tableau 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.040 has been lying about his academic credentials, first I'm like, Okay, 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.080 they're asking good questions, like, you know, because because not 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.200 because I wasn't. I was. I I thought Tableau was lying. 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:22.480 So when Tajen you know was raising questions about Tableau, 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.680 I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Maybe there's some truth 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.680 to it. But then the more I read it, I'm like, oh, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.440 it's just too bizarre. This can't be. And then later 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:34.240 when I did research or read more about it, I 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:38.200 realized that there's really no UH. It was hard to 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.200 really like a set their claims, but it was just 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.760 interesting how the claims that were made by this UH 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:50.240 community was gaining traction and was having a ripple effect 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.600 on the wider Korean public. That's what got me interested. UM, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.120 So I started to look into why this claim that 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:03.440 was made by this one internet troll would have would 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.240 would have an impact on so many people. There's so 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.000 much in here. This Oh my gosh, that's so much 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:09.960 in here. One thing I want to ask you, you 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.880 were talking about sort of the people who the people 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.879 who were kind of attacking, right, So I think now, 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:22.560 if anything even remotely like any kind of rumors or 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.480 attacks on tallow or on epic Ai were to happen, 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.280 the fans, I think would immediately come to the defense 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.200 and say, no, no, stop it, let's shut this down. 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.760 Didn't happen back then? What what what was it that? 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.119 I mean, as we're talking about k pop, you cannot 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.800 have a conversation about k pop without fandom, right, and 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:48.280 with other fans, bts, army, all these things. Right, Where 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:53.080 were the fans when Tableau had all these rumors being 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.159 spread about him. Yeah. So it's like said Tableau or 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.920 Epicchai fandom wasn't like. Their popularity wasn't based on fandom. 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.800 It was based on the general public's interests in their music, 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:09.520 particularly through Tableau's appearances and a lot of Korean TV shows. 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.280 So they were popular by the wider general public, not 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:18.240 by really passionate and engaged fandom and um, so they 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.840 didn't have something like an army they did have fans, 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.800 and um I think there was a community that was 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.960 created to defend Tableau. I think it was called Tableau 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.879 is Telling the Truth or something like that, but it wasn't. 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.680 It was nowhere comparable in terms of size to Touch 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.560 and you know, I think it was like thirty thousand 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.040 versus two hundred thousand, um so. And these people did 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.359 try their best to defend Tableau, but it was just 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.479 not as big as Tajanio or they weren't getting as 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.520 much coverage or interest as Tataneo and Tangen say so. 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.800 And it also has to do with how Epichai became popular, 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.280 not through fandom, not through active fandom, but through the 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.719 wider public who have more fickle taste. They don't have 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:07.359 loyalty to particular artists, like the difference between acquaintances and friends. Exactly. 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.960 They had a bunch of acquaintmans right exactly who like 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.680 their music. Whatever music that came out at the moment, 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.320 they liked it, but not but it doesn't mean that 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.720 they would like defend the artists. I mean they had fans, 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.920 they had passionate fans, but in terms of size, in 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.119 terms of uh yeah, in terms of size they weren't 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.480 massive at all. So that's why they didn't have this 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:34.680 big fandom defending Tableau or defending at the Chai when 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.800 this thing occurred. And I think I've read an article 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.960 that said the Tableau even told his close friends, who 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.480 were also like singers and entertainers, to stop defending him 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.000 because they were getting a lot of hate. So I 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.080 think that's another reason why there was more of a 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:55.919 silence by his supporters. That's like, you know, entertainers and 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.679 his friends with fans. Yeah, No, the fans did exist. 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.600 It's just that they weren't as powerful or they weren't 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.919 as visible as the detractors. Unfortunately, it sounds like some 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.880 of them are all most scared. Yeah. So when when 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.920 I was talking to tell what he was saying that listen, uh, 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.399 when Teller got married, apparently a good amount of his 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:20.520 fans were actually upset, I think for various reasons. And 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:24.080 and tell Us thinks that a lot of fans actually 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.960 left at that point, and that may have been when 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.359 why there wasn't so many so much support. I wonder 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:32.879 what you think about. Yeah, but the thing is like, 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.040 I don't know how big of a female fans that 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:36.560 he had. I'm going to be honest with you, he 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:38.840 wasn't known as like this heartthrob or like, you know, 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:42.840 the idol, the typical male idol who has massive female 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.320 fans because they're kind of treating this artist as their 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.040 pseudo lover. I don't think Tableau was kind of like that. 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.360 He was because he had this persona being this very 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:54.920 laid back, young chill uh kind of like a jokester um. 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.040 So yeah, he did have fans, I'm not saying that 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.640 he didn't, but he just didn't have that persona being 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.800 like like he's my dream like guy, you know. So 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.080 it's a bit different. But I can see like how 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:09.480 some of his female fans could have left because they 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.560 were unhappy that he got married to one of the 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:16.600 most popular actress in Korean entertainment, or it could have 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.200 been his male fans who you know, started to like 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.119 project this idea that table was just like them, but 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.760 then realized that he is actually, like, you know, different 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:28.680 from them. You know, he might come across as this 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.680 very like, you know, laid back, like I'm just one 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:33.919 of you guys. I'm just like, you know, one of 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.840 you likes to joke and and kick back. But then 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:41.159 like he ends up marrying this uh, this actress and 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:45.720 having not everybody can achieve, right, So I don't know, 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.760 Like again, like I don't have the numbers of like 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:50.840 you know, how many fans he had or what the 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:55.200 my just my perception is he Epichai like they did 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:57.919 have massive following, but it was mostly because of music, 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:01.160 not because of his persona, because of who he is 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:03.480 as a celebrity or as a star. But I could 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:05.480 be wrong, because you know, Tableau would have a better 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.520 sense of his fandom and his um and and his 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.760 fans more than Yeah. So and so I'm curious about 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.560 how you're an educator. We're both in the same kind 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:21.440 of game here. How would you teach about Tao in 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.840 a classroom? That's a really good question, because how do 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:27.480 you teach that? It's really difficult because if you think 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.880 about it for so long, Like I teach media studies, 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.840 and one of the goals is media literacy, which is 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.639 all about asking questions instead of like you know, accepting 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:40.640 the best age at based value, ask the right questions, 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.399 be critical, and if you think about it, that's what 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.199 people are touching. You are doing instead of accepting what 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.320 is given to them. No, seriously, what instead of accepting 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.120 what is given to them through like you know, through 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:56.240 entertainment shows, they're actually raising I'm not saying that they're 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.280 good questions, but they are questioning and thinking that they're 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:03.399 asking rational questions. So they have the tools of what 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.240 you know, we've been teaching about, you know, for media literacy. 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:09.840