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Speaker 1: From Vice and I Heart. I'm Dexter Thomas and this

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Speaker 1: is our second bonus episode, A conversation with Professor Hedgen Lee.

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Speaker 1: When we were setting out to tell Tableau story, I

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Speaker 1: knew the Professor Lee was someone we had to talk to.

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Speaker 1: She's a professor of communications and journalism at the University

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Speaker 1: of Southern California, but more importantly for us, she spends

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Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about how in ka pop

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Speaker 1: fans are active partners or potentially adversaries, and not just

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Speaker 1: how things are marketed, but how K pop itself is created.

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Speaker 1: Just this background, we had a bunch of conversations before

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Speaker 1: I ever flew out to talk to Tableau. When I

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Speaker 1: came back, she was one of the first people I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk to this sort of process, the bigger picture.

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Speaker 1: When we sat down to edit all this together, I

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Speaker 1: realized that there was a whole lot of insights she

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Speaker 1: gave me that went in behind the scenes that just

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Speaker 1: didn't make it into the show, like the origins of

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Speaker 1: K pop itself and American's attitudes toward it, and also

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Speaker 1: how fan culture has changed how we gather online even

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Speaker 1: before the pandemic, and also well, this is something we

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Speaker 1: get to near the end of the conversation. But there

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Speaker 1: is the fact that both she and I are professors.

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Speaker 1: There was some stuff I wanted to ask her advice about.

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Speaker 1: So with all that said, I present to you the

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Speaker 1: final Bonus episode, an extended conversation with Professor hedging Lee.

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Speaker 1: I hope you'll dig it. So my name is Hedging

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Speaker 1: Lee and I am clinical Assistant professor at Annimburgh School

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Speaker 1: of Communication and Journalism at USC. I teach classes on

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Speaker 1: popular culture, visual culture, and media consumption, and right now

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Speaker 1: my focus is on K pop. I started looking at

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Speaker 1: K pop as mostly as a bystander for a long

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Speaker 1: period of time. I grew up listening to a lot

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Speaker 1: of them, but I didn't think about studying it until

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Speaker 1: I came to USC back in I started getting questions

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Speaker 1: from students about K pop, like my what, my thoughts

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Speaker 1: are uncertain artists, and I realized that there is actually

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Speaker 1: some kind of demand from students about wanting to learn

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Speaker 1: about K pop, Like K pop foundom is the most

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Speaker 1: visible fandom right now, Like if you go online, you

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Speaker 1: can see so many K pop fans expressing their feelings

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Speaker 1: or their thoughts on whatever it's related to K pop.

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Speaker 1: So I study it more as like an observer rather

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Speaker 1: than as an insider. And it can be good, it

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Speaker 1: can be bad. So I've heard you do this in

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Speaker 1: a few different ways. And I think the history of

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Speaker 1: K pop is extremely interesting. Um, How how did k

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Speaker 1: pop become to even be called k pop? How did

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Speaker 1: this whole thing start? K pup is a term that

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Speaker 1: nobody's really sure who coined it. It's just one of

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Speaker 1: those worst that people suddenly start to use it. One

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Speaker 1: thing that sure is that kapap was not a term

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Speaker 1: that was coined by Koreans um. So. K pop was

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Speaker 1: a term that the Japanese industry had given to Korean

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Speaker 1: music that had more Western influence, that seemed more trendy

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Speaker 1: and seemed very different. Um. And those were the songs

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Speaker 1: that were coming out in the nineties that was more

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Speaker 1: dance oriented and more youth oriented as well. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then people started to use it as K pop became

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Speaker 1: more popular around the world, and once the term became

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Speaker 1: more widely used, Korean industry, Korean government, and Korean public

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Speaker 1: started to take it up as their own word. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I think the first time Korean public started to

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Speaker 1: really use K pop would be like in the late

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Speaker 1: two thousand. How would you define then, Yeah, it's very tricky.

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Speaker 1: It really depends on how you're studying it. Um. I

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Speaker 1: do think that is bigger than just music. It's definitely

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Speaker 1: not a genre. I know some people think that kapa

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Speaker 1: is a genre, um, but if you look at K pop,

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Speaker 1: it is a mixture of so many different forms of music,

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Speaker 1: forms and styles of music, So it is bigger than

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Speaker 1: a genre. Is definitely an industry, but it's a culture.

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Speaker 1: I would consider k pop to be a culture, uh

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Speaker 1: that encompasses not only music, but also lifestyle, um, also

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Speaker 1: about fashion, also about uh, you know, uh behavior, So

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Speaker 1: it is a culture. That's how I would define k pop.

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Speaker 1: How would you say that? The relationship between K pop

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Speaker 1: artists and their fans are different from say, your average

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Speaker 1: American artists and their fans. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people who are not familiar with

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Speaker 1: K pop would notice is the close relationship that K

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Speaker 1: pop fans seem to have with K pop artists. There

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Speaker 1: seemed to be a greater sense of intimacy between K

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Speaker 1: pop fans and K pop artists. I think it has

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Speaker 1: to do with Korea being a small country, so it

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Speaker 1: is easier for fans to actually see their artists up

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Speaker 1: close or to meet them, um in person. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying it's easily easily done, but it's doable. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then of course social media and online uh technology has

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Speaker 1: just made it easier for fans to kind of build

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Speaker 1: this para social relationship with artists, and it has to

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Speaker 1: do with the artists being more visible online because K

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Speaker 1: pop industry has been very active and using online tools

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Speaker 1: to reach out to fans. So it's not just YouTube,

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Speaker 1: it's not just Twitter. There's also a thing called v live,

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Speaker 1: which is a Korean app uh that m artists would

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Speaker 1: use to directly communicate with their fans. They would like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like randomly send out Twitter message saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be on v live from this time

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Speaker 1: to that, you know, on this day, from this time

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Speaker 1: to whatever, and fans would you know, they would log

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Speaker 1: in and they would get to they would have a

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Speaker 1: chance to like talk to the artists or ask questions

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Speaker 1: um or leaf you know, comments on the chat, and

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Speaker 1: the artists would read it and they would answer. So

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Speaker 1: there is that sense of intimacy that is being built.

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Speaker 1: Although that intimacy is kind of like, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not like real intimacy, but there is a sense of

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Speaker 1: intimacy that can be built between the artists and the fans.

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Speaker 1: I know you've you've mentioned sort of the role that

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Speaker 1: or some inspirations of things like J pop or or

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Speaker 1: or even motown, and I wonder if you could sort

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Speaker 1: of explain lay that out a little bit for me.

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Speaker 1: J Pop was a term that was coined in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties or late nineteen eighties, and that's when rock

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Speaker 1: music was extremely popular in the West, so a lot

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Speaker 1: of music that inspired J pop was rock based. Now

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Speaker 1: in Korea, the music that inspired K pop was mostly

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Speaker 1: Black American music because black American music was becoming more

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Speaker 1: mainstream in the in the nineties. They were the ones

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Speaker 1: that were associated as American music, not Black American music,

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Speaker 1: just American music for Koreans, and those were the songs

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Speaker 1: that would be played a lot in Korea at the

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Speaker 1: clubs or you know um or by the radio stations.

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Speaker 1: So K pop was inspired in terms of the sound,

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Speaker 1: it was inspired by black music. And that's something that

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Speaker 1: the founder of SM Entertainment is Suman set himself that

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Speaker 1: if J pop was inspired by rock music, k pop

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Speaker 1: is inspired by black music because that was the most

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Speaker 1: popular music in the nineties that Koreans were exposed to.

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Speaker 1: Sam was trying to create artists musicians. It wasn't just

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Speaker 1: going to be artists who focused on music. If it's

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Speaker 1: going to be focused on music, then it could have

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Speaker 1: been Sam music, right, But he changed it to sm entertainment,

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Speaker 1: which kind of foretells that there was this idea to

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Speaker 1: create artists who can be multitalented, not just in terms

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Speaker 1: of singing and dancing, but also who can like do

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Speaker 1: well in variety shows, who can act, or who can

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Speaker 1: have a career outside of being an idol. This is

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Speaker 1: really interesting you mentioned this because as you're as you're

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Speaker 1: talking about this, I mean that the K pop system

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Speaker 1: has elements and inspirations from from J pop, from motown,

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Speaker 1: from the US movie studio system from the fifties, and

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Speaker 1: also just watching a lot of MTV. But then now

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Speaker 1: as you're describing it a lot of US artists, it

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Speaker 1: looks like you're kind of taking cues from how to

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Speaker 1: manage themselves, or how to promote themselves, or how to

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Speaker 1: motivate their fan base so they can get like they

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Speaker 1: can get the kind of support and frankly purchasing power

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Speaker 1: that K pop audiences are giving that their artists. This

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Speaker 1: cycle is really interesting. Yeah, everything's coming back to circle.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think that's that's That's one

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Speaker 1: of the things that really fascinates me is I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of times Americans in particular assume that if something,

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Speaker 1: some cultural phenomenon is happening outside of the United States

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Speaker 1: and it's necessarily taken from the US, and that we

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Speaker 1: inspired them. I'm not sure if people fully appreciate what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about here, which is that that is coming

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Speaker 1: back to the United States. There's some of the approaches,

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Speaker 1: if I'm understanding what you're saying, right, Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: with the American K pop fans, they've just kind of

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Speaker 1: like has accepted accepted it. And I see a lot

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Speaker 1: of similar fan practices between the American k pop fans

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Speaker 1: and Korean kpop fans, like things that were uniquely Korean

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Speaker 1: fan practices. I see it being adopted by American K

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Speaker 1: pop fans now outside of the K pop world. Like

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Speaker 1: young artists, they're more Internet savvy, they're more social media savvy,

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Speaker 1: so they're using this tool in a way that allows

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Speaker 1: the fans to uh, you know, constantly talk about them

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Speaker 1: or promote them, which we haven't seen with like more

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Speaker 1: established artists of like the early Adds or the tens. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, as you're describing the K pop fans, the

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Speaker 1: closest thing I can think of in the U S

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Speaker 1: is maybe Beyonce and the Beehive where where I know,

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Speaker 1: and you know, don't say anything bad about Beyonce on

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Speaker 1: Twitter because you know that they will come for you.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like kop is It seems like it's

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Speaker 1: another level. Yeah. The difference between bee Hive and K

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Speaker 1: pop though, is Beyonce isn't really active on social media,

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Speaker 1: Like she's not the one. No. I mean she went

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Speaker 1: once in a while, but it would be very private

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Speaker 1: and would be really curated, like it would be really

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Speaker 1: carefully thought out. Um, and yeah, she's just not that

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Speaker 1: visible on social media. She has social media accounts, but

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Speaker 1: she's not using it to communicate with her fans, which

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Speaker 1: is really really different from how K pop artists use

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Speaker 1: social media. Um. Of course it's mostly promotional, but they

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Speaker 1: use it very actively to create a sense that they're

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Speaker 1: updating their everyday life to their fans, so the fans

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Speaker 1: feel like they're getting something from their artists. They know

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Speaker 1: it's promotional stuff, but because it's constantly updated, they feel

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Speaker 1: like they're getting to see pieces of their lives, everyday lives.

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Speaker 1: So it does kind of make them feel like like

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Speaker 1: close to the artists that they love. With Beehive, I

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Speaker 1: think it's also because of like how Beyonce hasn't really

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Speaker 1: been like despite all these great works that she's released,

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Speaker 1: she hasn't gotten like the proper recognition from the Grammys

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Speaker 1: and you know, and we know why. And I think

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Speaker 1: the fans are just like you know, guarded, like they

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Speaker 1: want to protect her and make sure that she gets

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Speaker 1: the credit that she deserves. And um, so that's why they,

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Speaker 1: you know, are very protective of her and um are

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Speaker 1: bad at like when Beyonce gets criticism. They're the ones

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Speaker 1: who like would be at the forefront of like, you know, biting.

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Speaker 1: I guess that. I think I see that with Nicki

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Speaker 1: minaj Is fans and the Taylor Swift. The swift is

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Speaker 1: also can be very protective of the artists. But I

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Speaker 1: think it's also because the and it might not necessarily

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Speaker 1: because be because they're trying to protect the artists. Maybe

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Speaker 1: in some way of them protecting themselves and the fandom itself. Right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't like k pop was a massively

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Speaker 1: popular genre even because people weren't even really saying it

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Speaker 1: so much, even at the beginning of the two thousands.

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Speaker 1: And of course hip hop starts to develop in Korea

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Speaker 1: around this period. So how was the development of k

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Speaker 1: pop and Korean hip hop? How do those two affect

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Speaker 1: each other and how are they different? Yeah, so although

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Speaker 1: kip hop was not popular or as popular in the

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Speaker 1: States until more recently, k pop has always been popular

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Speaker 1: in Korea, Korean music it wasn't. It just wasn't called

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Speaker 1: k pop until much later. So Korean music, the popular music,

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Speaker 1: has always had a massive peel, was widely popular and

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Speaker 1: was recognized by a lot by the wider Korean public.

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Speaker 1: With Korean hip hop was interesting in that it's really

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Speaker 1: hard to distinguish like Korean hip hop from pop because,

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Speaker 1: as I said, keep hop and incorporate so many different

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Speaker 1: genres of music, including hip hop. So there would like

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Speaker 1: even like the Hot had rap and hip pop elements

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Speaker 1: in their songs. It might not like sound like a

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Speaker 1: conventional hip hop music, but it had hip hop elements. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and street style dance. So hip hop has always been

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Speaker 1: part of or has been embedded in in kp hop

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Speaker 1: for a long period of time. But there were like

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Speaker 1: some groups that were kind of like very um I guess,

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Speaker 1: discontent with idle style of music, especially those who grew

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Speaker 1: up in the States and who were well versed in

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Speaker 1: hip hop music. Uh. They started coming back to Korea

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Speaker 1: in the late nineties, and uh there were some underground

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Speaker 1: hip hop artists, and there were some hip hop artists

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Speaker 1: who were actually more popular, like I'm thinking about like

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Speaker 1: uh Tiger j K and his group Drunken Tiger Um

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Speaker 1: who you know, had a song actually that kind of

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Speaker 1: like this is the idol music and say you don't

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Speaker 1: know what hip hop is, this is how you do

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Speaker 1: hip hop, you know. Uh, so there's actually been here. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he lived in l A, right right. I think he

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Speaker 1: went to the same high school as Angelina Julie Beverly Hills.

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Speaker 1: I I know, Tim, I but exactly. But but but

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Speaker 1: then there's this company called Wig Entertainment which becomes one

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Speaker 1: of the Big three, and unlike Essen, which had more

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Speaker 1: polished idol music, why she had a more hip hop

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Speaker 1: style music or they created more of a hip hop

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Speaker 1: style music for their artists. So the team that first

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Speaker 1: came out is called Jinushan, which is a duo and

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Speaker 1: the members are both from then one is from Guam

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Speaker 1: and the other I think it's from the mainland. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember where, but they're both Korean American and they

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Speaker 1: were popular, but it was It wasn't until a group

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Speaker 1: that's called One Time that came out that really established

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Speaker 1: y G as a hip hop music label. So I want,

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Speaker 1: I want to get into sort of the heavy stuff.

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Speaker 1: Um do you what did you think when you first

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Speaker 1: I saw the phrase Tajanio? Yeah, yeah, where you? Where

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Speaker 1: were you? Graduate student? I was a graduate student, so

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Speaker 1: that's why I wasn't like paying as much attention as

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Speaker 1: I should be because I was busy with my course

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Speaker 1: works and stuff like that. But it was just interesting

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Speaker 1: because I thought it was going to be a temporary thing,

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Speaker 1: but then it lasted for longer than I thought it would. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then after after it kind of like blew up,

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Speaker 1: I started like reading about it and like, you know,

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Speaker 1: because it was just a really bizarre and interesting case

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Speaker 1: to study as a pop culture scholar. Uh, So I

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Speaker 1: looked into it. It wasn't really about fandom, or it

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Speaker 1: wasn't really about key pop as UH. People who don't

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Speaker 1: really know about Tajano or Tableau would think it was

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Speaker 1: much bigger than that. And Yeah, when I first heard

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Speaker 1: about Tajan you know like and their claims that Tableau

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Speaker 1: has been lying about his academic credentials, first I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they're asking good questions, like, you know, because because not

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Speaker 1: because I wasn't. I was. I I thought Tableau was lying.

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Speaker 1: So when Tajen you know was raising questions about Tableau,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Maybe there's some truth

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Speaker 1: to it. But then the more I read it, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's just too bizarre. This can't be. And then later

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Speaker 1: when I did research or read more about it, I

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Speaker 1: realized that there's really no UH. It was hard to

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Speaker 1: really like a set their claims, but it was just

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Speaker 1: interesting how the claims that were made by this UH

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Speaker 1: community was gaining traction and was having a ripple effect

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Speaker 1: on the wider Korean public. That's what got me interested. UM,

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Speaker 1: So I started to look into why this claim that

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Speaker 1: was made by this one internet troll would have would

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Speaker 1: would have an impact on so many people. There's so

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Speaker 1: much in here. This Oh my gosh, that's so much

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Speaker 1: in here. One thing I want to ask you, you

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Speaker 1: were talking about sort of the people who the people

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Speaker 1: who were kind of attacking, right, So I think now,

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Speaker 1: if anything even remotely like any kind of rumors or

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Speaker 1: attacks on tallow or on epic Ai were to happen,

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Speaker 1: the fans, I think would immediately come to the defense

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Speaker 1: and say, no, no, stop it, let's shut this down.

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Speaker 1: Didn't happen back then? What what what was it that?

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Speaker 1: I mean, as we're talking about k pop, you cannot

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Speaker 1: have a conversation about k pop without fandom, right, and

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Speaker 1: with other fans, bts, army, all these things. Right, Where

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Speaker 1: were the fans when Tableau had all these rumors being

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Speaker 1: spread about him. Yeah. So it's like said Tableau or

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Speaker 1: Epicchai fandom wasn't like. Their popularity wasn't based on fandom.

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Speaker 1: It was based on the general public's interests in their music,

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Speaker 1: particularly through Tableau's appearances and a lot of Korean TV shows.

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Speaker 1: So they were popular by the wider general public, not

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Speaker 1: by really passionate and engaged fandom and um, so they

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Speaker 1: didn't have something like an army they did have fans,

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Speaker 1: and um I think there was a community that was

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Speaker 1: created to defend Tableau. I think it was called Tableau

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Speaker 1: is Telling the Truth or something like that, but it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: It was nowhere comparable in terms of size to Touch

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Speaker 1: and you know, I think it was like thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: versus two hundred thousand, um so. And these people did

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Speaker 1: try their best to defend Tableau, but it was just

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Speaker 1: not as big as Tajanio or they weren't getting as

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Speaker 1: much coverage or interest as Tataneo and Tangen say so.

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Speaker 1: And it also has to do with how Epichai became popular,

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Speaker 1: not through fandom, not through active fandom, but through the

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Speaker 1: wider public who have more fickle taste. They don't have

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Speaker 1: loyalty to particular artists, like the difference between acquaintances and friends. Exactly.

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Speaker 1: They had a bunch of acquaintmans right exactly who like

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Speaker 1: their music. Whatever music that came out at the moment,

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Speaker 1: they liked it, but not but it doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: they would like defend the artists. I mean they had fans,

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Speaker 1: they had passionate fans, but in terms of size, in

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Speaker 1: terms of uh yeah, in terms of size they weren't

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Speaker 1: massive at all. So that's why they didn't have this

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Speaker 1: big fandom defending Tableau or defending at the Chai when

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Speaker 1: this thing occurred. And I think I've read an article

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Speaker 1: that said the Tableau even told his close friends, who

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Speaker 1: were also like singers and entertainers, to stop defending him

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Speaker 1: because they were getting a lot of hate. So I

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Speaker 1: think that's another reason why there was more of a

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Speaker 1: silence by his supporters. That's like, you know, entertainers and

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Speaker 1: his friends with fans. Yeah, No, the fans did exist.

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Speaker 1: It's just that they weren't as powerful or they weren't

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Speaker 1: as visible as the detractors. Unfortunately, it sounds like some

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Speaker 1: of them are all most scared. Yeah. So when when

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Speaker 1: I was talking to tell what he was saying that listen, uh,

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Speaker 1: when Teller got married, apparently a good amount of his

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Speaker 1: fans were actually upset, I think for various reasons. And

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Speaker 1: and tell Us thinks that a lot of fans actually

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Speaker 1: left at that point, and that may have been when

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Speaker 1: why there wasn't so many so much support. I wonder

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Speaker 1: what you think about. Yeah, but the thing is like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how big of a female fans that

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Speaker 1: he had. I'm going to be honest with you, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't known as like this heartthrob or like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the idol, the typical male idol who has massive female

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Speaker 1: fans because they're kind of treating this artist as their

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Speaker 1: pseudo lover. I don't think Tableau was kind of like that.

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Speaker 1: He was because he had this persona being this very

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Speaker 1: laid back, young chill uh kind of like a jokester um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, he did have fans, I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: he didn't, but he just didn't have that persona being

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Speaker 1: like like he's my dream like guy, you know. So

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Speaker 1: it's a bit different. But I can see like how

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Speaker 1: some of his female fans could have left because they

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Speaker 1: were unhappy that he got married to one of the

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Speaker 1: most popular actress in Korean entertainment, or it could have

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Speaker 1: been his male fans who you know, started to like

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Speaker 1: project this idea that table was just like them, but

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Speaker 1: then realized that he is actually, like, you know, different

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Speaker 1: from them. You know, he might come across as this

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Speaker 1: very like, you know, laid back, like I'm just one

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Speaker 1: of you guys. I'm just like, you know, one of

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Speaker 1: you likes to joke and and kick back. But then

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Speaker 1: like he ends up marrying this uh, this actress and

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Speaker 1: having not everybody can achieve, right, So I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Like again, like I don't have the numbers of like

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Speaker 1: you know, how many fans he had or what the

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Speaker 1: my just my perception is he Epichai like they did

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Speaker 1: have massive following, but it was mostly because of music,

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Speaker 1: not because of his persona, because of who he is

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Speaker 1: as a celebrity or as a star. But I could

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Speaker 1: be wrong, because you know, Tableau would have a better

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Speaker 1: sense of his fandom and his um and and his

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Speaker 1: fans more than Yeah. So and so I'm curious about

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Speaker 1: how you're an educator. We're both in the same kind

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Speaker 1: of game here. How would you teach about Tao in

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Speaker 1: a classroom? That's a really good question, because how do

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Speaker 1: you teach that? It's really difficult because if you think

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Speaker 1: about it for so long, Like I teach media studies,

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Speaker 1: and one of the goals is media literacy, which is

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Speaker 1: all about asking questions instead of like you know, accepting

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Speaker 1: the best age at based value, ask the right questions,

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Speaker 1: be critical, and if you think about it, that's what

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Speaker 1: people are touching. You are doing instead of accepting what

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Speaker 1: is given to them. No, seriously, what instead of accepting

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Speaker 1: what is given to them through like you know, through

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Speaker 1: entertainment shows, they're actually raising I'm not saying that they're

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Speaker 1: good questions, but they are questioning and thinking that they're

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Speaker 1: asking rational questions. So they have the tools of what

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Speaker 1: you know, we've been teaching about, you know, for media literacy.

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Speaker 1: They have the media literacy skills, which is precisely what

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Speaker 1: antivactors are doing exactly. I don't hold on can we

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Speaker 1: say that they have media literacy skills or that they're

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Speaker 1: using the tools the tools. No, they're using these tools.

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Speaker 1: They're using them a very destructive direct, right exactly. But

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Speaker 1: they're using the tools that we've been asking people to

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Speaker 1: like use for a long time, right, not in a

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Speaker 1: way that we wanted them to, but they are using

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Speaker 1: the tool in a way that we've taught them or

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Speaker 1: we've been asking them to. So no, I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: it's our fault, but it's just like turned into a

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Speaker 1: really weird situation and I'm struggling with it too. Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, now people are asking questions which we have

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Speaker 1: been asking them to do for so long, right, ask questions.

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Speaker 1: Don't take the message of face value. Always question, be

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Speaker 1: you know, be skeptical. Those are the things that we

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Speaker 1: asked people, um, like, you know, because I teach like

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Speaker 1: pop culture instead of like, you know, accepting the message

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Speaker 1: just given to you. Think about what these messages, how

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Speaker 1: they're constructed. And that's what a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: doing right now, but in a twisted in a in

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Speaker 1: a very different way. Yeah. I don't have the answer. Unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: If I knew, like I my life would be much easier.

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Speaker 1: But but I just feel like we're at that place

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Speaker 1: right now. We've got we've got a fun few semesters

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Speaker 1: ahead of us. I think that's what we do. Authentic

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Speaker 1: is a production of Vice Audio and I Heart Podcast Network,

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Speaker 1: produced and reported by Stephanie Karayuki, Minji Cool, Hate Osborne,

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Speaker 1: and myself with Janet Lee, Stephanie Brown, and Sam Egan.

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Speaker 1: Sound design and original music composition by Kyle Murdoch, with

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Speaker 1: the DIG and support from Natasha Jacobs. Our Supervising producer

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Speaker 1: is Janet Lee, editing from Lacy Roberts, fact checking by

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Speaker 1: Minji Ku and Nikolepasuka. Our Executive producer and VP Advice

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Speaker 1: Audio is Kate Osborne from I Heart Podcast Network executive

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Speaker 1: producers Nikki E. Tor and Lindsay Hoffmann. I'm dexter, Thomas